Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => AP Short Story & Screenplay => Topic started by: NoReins on Apr 26, 2006, 02:23 AM
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I've been thinking about this for a while now but since I've lent my copy of the short story out, I couldn't remember the exact sentence used....so I'm indebted to Lost_Girl from another thread. Right at the end of the short story there following line appears:
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.
I was just wondering what people thought that all meant?
FWIW my thoughts are that Ennis knew that he loved Jack and that Jack loved him (because of the shirts) and tried to believe that, although Jack may have had other men, he would never have had a life with any of them because Ennis was his one true love. He may also have tried to believe that he wasn't gay, although I kind of think that by then he's realised that he is.
I'd be interested to hear what others think, though.
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NoReins....I love the short story, but I found this part the most intruging too! I read somewhere that Annie Proulx wrote the story with "loose ends" in parts, specifically so that readers would have to make their own decisions, and this, for me, is the most difficult one to decide on! I've taken it to mean that Ennis" knew" (finally) that he loved Jack but he " tried to believe" they could never be together, despite this love- that he couldn't have done anything diferently to what he did throughout their relationship ie: refuse Jacks wish that they be together.
But I'm really not certain...would be interested in other peoples take on this.....
Samc x
PS Thought I saw a similar thread on these lines somewhere else.....
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This is one of the best questions of them all. And I don't know if there's another thread about this, but if there is I hope the moderators will move this discussion to merge with it.
This line is obviously open to many interpretations. For me, it suggested the following: The open space referred to a difference or cognitve dissonance. What he knew was that he had overpoweringly strong feelings for Jack, and vice versa(love, really), and what he tried to believe was that neither of them were "queer". I think that even after all that the two of them had been through, together and separately, during the course of their relationship, Ennis would still have balked at the idea of applying the label of "queer" or "gay" or "homosexual" to either himself or Jack, but especially to himself. This is in keeping with Annie Proulx's statement that the primary theme of the story was the destructive effects of rural homophobia, both internal and external. Like many others, he might have been able to accept the term "bi-sexual", but the problem with that is, in the story, he had already told Jack that sex with women couldn't compare to the sex he and Jack shared, and I don't think this was just an issue of "mechanics". He was, in fact, sexually functional with both men and women, but his stated preference was for men, or in this case, man.
And an interesting thought: if he had passionately loved and been attracted to just one woman, I think there would be no argument with the notion that he was, by nature, "straight", regardless of whether circumstances, fears, or social pressures (in a very different society than the one in which we live) led him to have sex with others, whatever their gender.
samc,
Dang that Annie Proulx and her "loose ends"!!! Look at what she's done to me! (and a few others as well...)LOL
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proulxfan and sam - thanks for your thoughts on this. Seems like we're in basic agreement on the meaning of this bit so maybe it's not so open ended after all, although I guess there's plenty of time for alternative suggestions.
Although loose ends are sometimes annoying, it's great that they encourage so much interesting discussion. If it was all clear cut we wouldn't all have to keep coming back here to see the latest ideas - and that would be a shame ;)
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Absolutely, NoReins; Annie Proulx's tantalizing open-ended writing leaves room for our imaginations to wander and ponder.....Proulxfan, I agree with your take on the quotation. That "space" does seem to suggest that painful leap that may or may not be taken from what one knows to what one tries to believe: the "cognitive dissonance" as you say......and you remind me of a notion I had long ago when seeing the film and rereading the story: both Ennis and Jack proclaim they are not queer; but Jack, as we have noted before, attempts to live out his gayness, while Ennis stays true to his "this is a one time thing" or rather his one man, Jack, as a life time love......so, although Ennis tries to believe neither of them is queer, he has to wonder then what the implications are of his passions for Jack, and this is the "space" that leaves him suspended, and at a stalemate,where his brain stops, and so "nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it."
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Stephen,
Brava!! Very well said. But I would add that Ennis was, so far as we are given to know, Jack's lifetime love as well. Jack's way of dealing with it was different, because he had greater needs, or at least was more aware of them. But there is no indication that he ever felt anything for any other man what he did for Ennis. :-\ :'( (Again!)
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Totally agree proulxfan - nothing in the story suggests that Jack ever felt anything approaching the way he felt about Ennis for anyone else. Everything he says, everything he does, makes it pretty clear that Ennis is the only one he could ever feel that way about.
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Yes, there's no doubt that Ennis is Jack's one true love, just not his only sexual partner.
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If you go to the book and read the two opening paragraphs which are italicized, you will see that Annie Proulx did not leave as many lose threads as in the last page of the book.
It was too late to fix his relationship with Jack and so he had to stand it, being alone without him.
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Yes, TJ, I agree with your observation: the final note is having to live with it, having to "stand" it, and that's the bitter truth of the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain.
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If you go to the book and read the two opening paragraphs which are italicized, you will see that Annie Proulx did not leave as many lose threads as in the last page of the book.
It was too late to fix his relationship with Jack and so he had to stand it, being alone without him.
You're right TJ - but at least Ennis seems to find some solace in dreaming of Jack. I guess this makes the story more bearable than the movie in a lot of ways, since at least we see that Ennis has happy memories (at least when he wakes up with the sheets damp, anyway)
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If you go to the book and read the two opening paragraphs which are italicized, you will see that Annie Proulx did not leave as many lose threads as in the last page of the book.
It was too late to fix his relationship with Jack and so he had to stand it, being alone without him.
You're right TJ - but at least Ennis seems to find some solace in dreaming of Jack. I guess this makes the story more bearable than the movie in a lot of ways, since at least we see that Ennis has happy memories (at least when he wakes up with the sheets damp, anyway)
*Blushing* I have never had one of them there damp sheet dreams. So, as I read the story, I had set the book down and suddenly wondered why he would have peed in the bed. I think this thought was reinforced by him peeing in the sink. Suddenly I realized what she meant and I am sure I blushed from my stupidity. :D
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*Blushing* I have never had one of them there damp sheet dreams. So, as I read the story, I had set the book down and suddenly wondered why he would have peed in the bed. I think this thought was reinforced by him peeing in the sink. Suddenly I realized what she meant and I am sure I blushed from my stupidity. :D
I don't know what's worse, Patriot1 - you being embarrassed when you "got" what she meant there, or me (as a female with no experience of these things, obviously) "getting it" straight away. What does that say about my mind when I was reading the story? :D
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*Blushing* I have never had one of them there damp sheet dreams. So, as I read the story, I had set the book down and suddenly wondered why he would have peed in the bed. I think this thought was reinforced by him peeing in the sink. Suddenly I realized what she meant and I am sure I blushed from my stupidity. :D
I don't know what's worse, Patriot1 - you being embarrassed when you "got" what she meant there, or me (as a female with no experience of these things, obviously) "getting it" straight away. What does that say about my mind when I was reading the story? :D
Well, at least you and Annie were on the same page. I rewrote the end of her story!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
And, we also learned that Ennis Del Mar never wore underwear.
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And, we also learned that Ennis Del Mar never wore underware.
Oh stop it - I'm trying to be serious here and you're mentioning no underwear...and since, for me at least, Ennis = Heath Ledger, that's a truly distracting thought.
Right, now I'll get my mind out of the gutter and back on topic....
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That's right you two! Let's cut out all this nonsense! :D But truly, thanks so much for sharing those! You've made my day!
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If you go to the book and read the two opening paragraphs which are italicized, you will see that Annie Proulx did not leave as many lose threads as in the last page of the book.
It was too late to fix his relationship with Jack and so he had to stand it, being alone without him.
You're right TJ - but at least Ennis seems to find some solace in dreaming of Jack. I guess this makes the story more bearable than the movie in a lot of ways, since at least we see that Ennis has happy memories (at least when he wakes up with the sheets damp, anyway)
*Blushing* I have never had one of them there damp sheet dreams. So, as I read the story, I had set the book down and suddenly wondered why he would have peed in the bed. I think this thought was reinforced by him peeing in the sink. Suddenly I realized what she meant and I am sure I blushed from my stupidity. :D
In the book, it says, "And he would wake sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release; the pillow sometimes wet, sometimes the sheets."
Ennis could have tears while he had those dreams and the sheets got wet because of the nightmare he had. And, in regard to the sense of joy and release, the sheets might have been damp due to noctural emission, which we call a "wet dream."
My late partner, Ed, thought "wet dreams" meant one "peed the bed." He had never had one of those.
I have had the sheets become damp with sweat due to having a bad dream and have had them sticky-damp when I had (or might have had) the other kind of dream. But, a guy does not have to even be dreaming about sex to have a nocturnal emission of semen.
Clothing worn next to the skin under other clothing is "underwear." ;D The spelling "underware" makes it look like it might be metal gear or hardware of some type.
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Ennis could have tears while he had those dreams and the sheets got wet because of the nightmare he had. And, in regard to the sense of joy and release, the sheets might have been damp due to noctural emission, which we call a "wet dream."
Yes, that is what we call it where I am from also.
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As interesting as this discussion is......
And I do think that Ennis is still struggling with the idea of his homosexuality...
Nevertheless, I took the quote right at the end of the story as an allusion to what Jack's father had said about Jack talking about taking another guy up to Lightnin Flat.... Ennis knows this, but tries to believe that Jack remained faithful to him. Fidelity is obviously an important issue for Ennis, as the last meeting scene shows.
And I think this is why Ennis says 'Jack, I swear'..Its a vow of fidelity, and it may even be linked to a commitment to go back to Lightnin Flat to collect Jack's ashes, so that they can be scattered on Brokeback and not buried on 'the grieving plain'.
I was discussing the story of BBM with my son today, about how it is a universal theme - lovers who cannot be together because of cultural prejudices and such things. There are obvious parallels to 'Romeo and Juliet' and also to 'Wuthering Heights'. I don't know if anyone else is familiar with the story, but in Emily Bronte's novel there is a suggestion that Heathcliff and Catherine are united after death, and in my head and heart I have the same ending for Jack and Ennis.
Its one the possiblities that Annie leaves us to ponder.....
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are united after death, and in my head and heart I have the same ending for Jack and Ennis
exactly what I want to belive too - Ennis is more or less just waiting to one day meet Jack again - 'over the rainbow, where there is a whisky spring and bluebirds sing...'
OMG - now are tears running again
:'( :'( :'(
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are united after death, and in my head and heart I have the same ending for Jack and Ennis
exactly what I want to belive too - Ennis is more or less just waiting to one day meet Jack again - 'over the rainbow, where there is a whisky spring and bluebirds sing...'
OMG - now are tears running again
:'( :'( :'(
come here my sweet green man and I'll give you a big cyber hug.
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thanks !
:D :-* :D
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I'm so glad to find this thread, I was wondering about that line from the minute I've read it. I thought this was one of the most beautiful lines in the story, and although I wasn't sure what had Annie meant by that "open spaces" and what Ennis wanted to believe, every time I read this line it made me feel this sadness that I couldn't explain.
I'm greatful to everyone who sent their thoughts here. I agree that the open space is a kind of a cognitive dissonance, but there is more than one explanation that seems reasonable to me: it could be that Ennis knew he loved Jack but tried to believe that he was straight. it could be that he tried to believe that Jack was faithful to him although he knew he wasn't Jack's only one (well at least not sexually). And I was just thinking, that maybe the open space was between what he knew - that Jack was dead, and what he tried/wanted to believe - that Jack is still somewhere out there, waiting for him... but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you gou've got to stand it. :'(
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keren_b,
That's what makes this forum such a great place to share thoughts about the story/film; to have the benefit of others' input of their ideas and interpretations. These invigorate the story for me beyond what I would able get out of it on my own, which was already plenty. The "open space" between his love for Jack and trying to believe in Jack's fidelity is a perfect example of what I am talking about. And of course that opens up the possiblity-the subject of another thread- of sexual fidelity vs. faithfulness of the heart, and to what extent they have to be one and the same...So many of these topics open out onto other possibilities. That's why it's so difficult to stay "on topic" here! LOL
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So far, I haven't noticed this perspective: could some of the open space be Ennis knew Jack was dead and believed he (Ennis) was partly responsible? If Ennis had found a way to literally embrace their relationship in a more forthright way, Jack would be alive and Ennis would not be alone.
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.
i think it can be interpreted in many ways one is talking about Ennis feelings about jack and how jack feelings about him, at the end of the story he can doubt that Jack love him he was going to move up with some one to lightning flat according to his father but he was not sure of that, and since jack was dead he'll never know that.
other way to see this was jack's death he was not sure how he died and he was not going to knew the true annie made a really good work by putting that in our point of view it is exactly what ennis thinks!! he is not sure how he died!
and the other view could be their relationship itself he was not sure if they would probabl continue that love they have he would probably believe they could but he would never know it. and as it says since he would never fix this situation he would face this doubts for the rest of his life.
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really interesting ideas --- many had never occurred to me.
When I first read the short story I felt the whole tragedy of the choice Ennis made was in these few lines.
"what he knew "=== that he had ,and still loved Jack , pure and simple . He'd also been loved in return . I think he can almost accept the beauty of that love and that is why his dreams are of their youth. He'd realised that there is nothing greater than finding love,that you don't hide from it and that without it you have nothing . Putting it simply --- to truly live ,you must chose love even if that means taking huge risks.
He'd made the wrong choice.
"what he tried to believe" === These are many things, mostly to do with his fear of the consequences of that love and alot to do with his fear of others contempt. He tries to believe they couldn't have been safe living together --- but I think he now realises that the life he stayed in was no life. I sometimes feel he didn't only fear physical danger but also the ridicule and contempt of others. He tries to believe that, because their love would have been unacceptable to others , he had no real choice--- Ennis conforms way too much. Put simply he tries to believe that his failure to live with Jack was unavoidable but I don't think he believes that any more. I think he also sees his own homophobia for what it was --- the product of fear. He's truly been loved so how can he equate this with the ugly ideas some people have about this form of loving.
He'd made the wrong choice.
I think it is these kind of ideas that the last scene with Alma is meant to convey --- and that this time he doesn't let the person he loves down.
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"what he tried to believe" === These are many things, mostly to do with his fear of the consequences of that love and alot to do with his fear of others contempt. He tries to believe they couldn't have been safe living together --- but I think he now realises that the life he stayed in was no life. I sometimes feel he didn't only fear physical danger but also the ridicule and contempt of others. He tries to believe that, because their love would have been unacceptable to others , he had no real choice--- Ennis conforms way too much. Put simply he tries to believe that his failure to live with Jack was unavoidable but I don't think he believes that any more. I think he also sees his own homophobia for what it was --- the product of fear. He's truly been loved so how can he equate this with the ugly ideas some people have about this form of loving.
He'd made the wrong choice.
Jackie, that's not something I'd ever considered before, but I think you're absolutely right. "He tried to believe that he had no real choice" - yeah, that's it :'(
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Beautiful post Jackie62. So many good thoughts in this thread about this quote.
I interpreted that line as him being conflicted concerning the truth of Jack's death. He has Lureen's story and his belief that it was the tire iron. The only thing he knows is that his Jack is dead. I guess at times he wavers as to what he believes/knows- an accident is more comforting I suppose- there's nothing that you can do or that could have been done- I think this is what he tried to believe. The tire iron is Ennis' worst fear come true and if that is the case then I'm sure he has moments of torment wondering "what if I had done this or that differently" etc. I think this is what he knows and that is a cruel irony to cope with. He has no closure in that regard.
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I've wondered about these lines quite a bit myself. I appreciate hearing what all of you think of them. My first inclination was that it was in reference to what he knew and what he tried to believe about how Jack died--an accident v. murder. I thought this because the previous paragraph mentions the spoon handle that could be used as a tire iron. Now, I'm not so sure. I think that maybe it's meant to emphasize how conflicted Ennis is, in many ways--over his sexuality, his love for Jack, how Jack died, his responsibility for events--and not just to indicate one specific thing. But then I think something different every time I read the story!
camom
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But then I think something different every time I read the story!
Yep, and that's the beauty of it.
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But then I think something different every time I read the story!
Yep, and that's the beauty of it.
Ain't it the truth!!!
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I've wondered about these lines quite a bit myself. I appreciate hearing what all of you think of them. My first inclination was that it was in reference to what he knew and what he tried to believe about how Jack died--an accident v. murder. I thought this because the previous paragraph mentions the spoon handle that could be used as a tire iron. Now, I'm not so sure. I think that maybe it's meant to emphasize how conflicted Ennis is, in many ways--over his sexuality, his love for Jack, how Jack died, his responsibility for events--and not just to indicate one specific thing. But then I think something different every time I read the story!camom
i agree i don't know what to think!!! i always have something new to think!!!
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I've wondered about these lines quite a bit myself. I appreciate hearing what all of you think of them. My first inclination was that it was in reference to what he knew and what he tried to believe about how Jack died--an accident v. murder. I thought this because the previous paragraph mentions the spoon handle that could be used as a tire iron. Now, I'm not so sure. I think that maybe it's meant to emphasize how conflicted Ennis is, in many ways--over his sexuality, his love for Jack, how Jack died, his responsibility for events--and not just to indicate one specific thing. But then I think something different every time I read the story!
camom
I totally agree. It was the same for me, too. I thought it was obvious to refer these lines to the way of Jack's death. Because of the mention of tire iron in the dream, the opposition between accident and murder that the writer lets appear during the telephone call, etc... and generally beacause the main subject of these ending pages of book is the sadness for the death of Jack and I think it's natural to think to that in the first time. BTW I have to admit that the other explications of those lines are fascinating too.
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I totally agree. It was the same for me, too. I thought it was obvious to refer these lines to the way of Jack's death. Because of the mention of tire iron in the dream, the opposition between accident and murder that the writer lets appear during the telephone call, etc... and generally beacause the main subject of these ending pages of book is the sadness for the death of Jack and I think it's natural to think to that in the first time. BTW I have to admit that the other explications of those lines are fascinating too.
I also agree. My first reading of the short story brought out Ennis' torment over what he knew (that Jack was killed) and what he 'tried to believe' (that jack's death was an 'accident'). What he 'knows' is so incredibly heart-wrenching that he 'wants to believe' in the 'accident' account, that lureen tells him. But he 'knows' in his heart and mind what really happenned. And it is killing him. There's anger, there's guilt, there's shame--and so much more.
Upon reading this thread, though, I am enlightened by the other 'torments' that were eating away at Ennis.
I thank you all for sharing and expanding my thoughts and perceptions.
I will watch it yet again!
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I think I'll stick my oar in here.
I love the phrase "open space" here because Ennis loves the open spaces, doesn't he? Both he and Jack, escaping to the open spaces where they could be free, where they could just...well....be. Yet, the open spaces they escaped too were also symptomatic of the closed spaces around them, in themselves, with their spouses, in society. A closed closet door at the end of the movie. Yet, maybe that closet was left a tiny bit open, right? Maybe just a crack and in that open space Ennis knew those shirts were there, he knew that Jack had loved him all along. And he HOPED, he BELIEVED, that Jack knew about Ennis' love, even before Ennis admitted and knew for himself. There was some open space in that closet door, and through it Ennis could see what he knew and what he believed.
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Hi,
This where I have a problem with "open space", this was Ennis's world, not that I think that he any particular love for open spaces, he spent so much time hiding in himself. After his divorce from Alma there was no responsibilities, he didn't have to be a participant in everyday life. He got the odd jobs on ranches, staying to himself, alone, but holding on to the relationship with Jack, "on his terms".
Jack, on the other hand, was tired of open space, He challenged Ennis at every turn, "let's go to Mexico, let's get our own place. and lost. Ennis's paranoia and unrelenting fear was a factor in his conduct throughout the whole relationship. In Proulx's story "there were some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believed." He knew it was just an accident that took his friend's life, but that same old fear kicks in, Jack was beaten to death with a tire iron, something he feared all those years would happen to him.
May be I interperting this incorrectly, I don't know. One thing I do know Ennis's inner conflicts makes one of the most tragic figure in literature.
Manhattangirl
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Manhattangirl, you are indeed right. Ennis Del Mar must be considered one of the most tragic characters ever created in literature.
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an allusion to what Jack's father had said about Jack talking about taking another guy up to Lightnin Flat.... Ennis knows this, but tries to believe that Jack remained faithful to him. Fidelity is obviously an important issue for Ennis, as the last meeting scene shows.
This scene haunts me to no end. I keep going back and forth as to whether I believe that Jack ever said that to his father. But maybe it is because I know the deep hurt it caused Ennis to hear this-and to think that Jack would bring another guy up to the ranch and have a life with him.-and I don't want to believe that.
Then again, how would Mr Twist know of this other rancher guy? Unless he made it up, just to hurt Ennis?
He is so filled with anger and hatred-he did not go down for Jack's wedding, nor the birth of his grandson, nor the funeral.
-My first time watching the movie, I felt that Mr.Twist just wanted to say or do anything to inflict pain on Ennis.
Or perhaps, after the last time together, jack realized that maybe it was over between the 2 of them, and when he went up tro see his folks he mentioned that other guy. Maybe he was thinking out loud?
Any thoughts?
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I think Jack mentioned it to his father or maybe his mother and his father was in ear shot. I don't see how else OMT would have known about it. Jack could have been thinking out loud or maybe his father said something like "So you ever going to get that Ennis fellow to come up here or what?" and Jack may have said no he was going to bring someone else.
I'm certain that OMT said that to hurt Ennis. A while back someone mentioned that perhaps it was OMT's way of saying that if you had come up here maybe he'd be alive. (paraphrashing but that was the gist of it) and that made me think of the relationship between OMT and Jack. I'm split 90/10 on him. 90% of me thinks he was just an abusive bastard who couldn't give a crap about Jack. But then I started to think of why Jack bothered to go back at all- to see his mother? Perhaps. But why would Jack want to subject ennis to the old man? He had to know that if by some miracle he got Ennis up to the Twist ranch that his father would probably kill any hope of Ennis staying there.
I don't think that Jack would have ended it with Ennis- or I like to believe that because I am a J/E girl to the end. But maybe it was just wishful thinking on Jack's part- having had enough of settling so he figured what the hell, I may as well have some semblence of the dream. maybe after that last meeting he finally started to accept that it was never going to be like that with Ennis.
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Thanx for your insight.
"perhaps it was OMT's way of saying that if you had come up here maybe he'd be alive."
That packs a powerful punch.
When Mr Twist is talking and Ennis' head is hung--and Mrs. Twist places her hand on Ennis' shoulder and slowly squeezes it, I am just filled with so much emotion--it is just heart-wrenching. She is breaking the gut-wrenching tension and offering Ennis the chance to be close to Jack once more. :\'(
I agree with you on believing that Jack would never end things with Ennis. So much is left for you to just think on--which is one reason I love this story so much.
I also never thought about what would have happenned if they had settled down up on the Twist ranch, in terms of his father's acceptance of them, etc.
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Thanx for your insight.
"perhaps it was OMT's way of saying that if you had come up here maybe he'd be alive."
That packs a powerful punch.
When Mr Twist is talking and Ennis' head is hung--and Mrs. Twist places her hand on Ennis' shoulder and slowly squeezes it, I am just filled with so much emotion--it is just heart-wrenching. She is breaking the gut-wrenching tension and offering Ennis the chance to be close to Jack once more. :\'(
I agree with you on believing that Jack would never end things with Ennis. So much is left for you to just think on--which is one reason I love this story so much.
I also never thought about what would have happenned if they had settled down up on the Twist ranch, in terms of his father's acceptance of them, etc.
I think OMT would have turned his head and looked the other way, happy to have the help. He really was all about "his" ranch and how he fit into it.
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Thanx for your insight.
"perhaps it was OMT's way of saying that if you had come up here maybe he'd be alive."
That packs a powerful punch.
When Mr Twist is talking and Ennis' head is hung--and Mrs. Twist places her hand on Ennis' shoulder and slowly squeezes it, I am just filled with so much emotion--it is just heart-wrenching. She is breaking the gut-wrenching tension and offering Ennis the chance to be close to Jack once more. :\'(
I agree with you on believing that Jack would never end things with Ennis. So much is left for you to just think on--which is one reason I love this story so much.
I also never thought about what would have happenned if they had settled down up on the Twist ranch, in terms of his father's acceptance of them, etc.
Her timing was perfect. Here OMT just told Ennis that Jack was at the very least thinking of moving up there with another man. And lets not forget this "But like most of Jack's ideas it never come to pass." Here Ennis got a double punch by hearing that Jack was possibly moving on from him and there is probably guilt on Ennis's part- in their last meeting Jack said "But you didn't want it....". Ennis knows that he is a part of the reason that at least some/one of Jack's ideas never came to be. And then at that moment Mama T offers him some privacy and I believe she knew about the shirts so as you said she led him to Jack. She let Ennis know that Jack loved him right from the start. :\'(
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Her timing was perfect. at that moment Mama T offers him some privacy and I believe she knew about the shirts so as you said she led him to Jack. She let Ennis know that Jack loved him right from the start. :\'(
I couldn't agree with you more hon. That scene was so powerful! It still tears me up.
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I couldn't agree with you more hon. That scene was so powerful! It still tears me up.
Me too. All of this time and I still breakdown from the confrontation through the end (among many other places). I don't think I'll ever get over Ennis finding those shirts and all that that signifies. :\'(
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Me too. All of this time and I still breakdown from the confrontation through the end (among many other places). I don't think I'll ever get over Ennis finding those shirts and all that that signifies. :\'(
Darlin', the music still makes me lose it! My feelings for BBM are as strong today as they were 2 years ago.
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"The timing was perfect"
Another little change from the ss to the screenplay.
In the ss, OMT says that he 'knows where BBM is" and that Jack thought 'he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot'. Mrs twist 'ignored this' and said that Jack used to come home every year and help his daddy on the ranch 'for a week'. Then she says "I kept his room like it was when he was a boy.,.,"
THEN, OMT angrily says "Ennis DelMar-- I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days wnd we'll lick this damn ranch into shape"--and about "this Spring he's got another one's--some ranch neighbour a his--he's goin a split up with his wife and come back here."
**So now he (Ennis) knew it had been the tire iron. He stood up and said 'you bet he'd like to see Jack's room"--and recalled Jack's story about his old man when Jack was 3 or 4 yrs old and had trouble going to the bathroom--and 'sprinkled' down the surroundings. His dad whipped him with a belt, and urinated on him and made him clean things up, wash his clothes, etc. Jack noticed that his father hadn't been 'dick-clipped'.
Ennis then went up to the bedroom.
In the screenplay;
OMT says the "He used to say 'Ennis del Mar'" speech. Then the part about "bringing up another ranch neighbour to the ranch".
It is THEN that Mrs Twist slowly, gingerly but firm, and deliberately squeezes Ennis' shoulder and tells him about Jack's room--and he stands "wanting to be anywhere but in this kitchen with John Twist".
And he goes upstairs.
By changing the scene, albeit slightly, added more power to the heartache, in my opinion.
Also when Ennis returns downstairs with the rolled up shirts.
In the ss; It is very quick and cut & dried;
Ennis comes down. OMT refuses to let Jack's ashes go. Mrs Twist says "You come again".
And Ennis leaves, "passed the country cemetery.,., and didn't want to know Jack was going in there, to be buried on the grieving plain."
In the screenplay;
Ennis comes downstairs and Mrs Twist "places the 2 shirts in a paper sack for Ennis."
OMT says that Jack's goin in the family plot, and Ennis nods.
Mrs Twist hands Ennis the sack, saying "You come back and see us again".
Ennis nods and says "Ma'am. Thank you for this".
*I love how the little added nuances to the ss make the scene all the more powerful.
And the way Ang Lee directed this scene is simply phenomenal.
Neither the ss, nor the screenplay had Mrs. Twist, come up behind Ennis and squeeze his shoulder. That is a powerful few seconds--incredibly powerful for both Ennis and Mrs Twist to 'connect'.
In the movie, when Ennis comes downstairs and enters the room, carrying the shirts--the emotion is raw. OMT looks at him walk across the room. Mrs Twist sees him, sees that he has the shirts, half-smiles and gets a paper bag.
They stand and he hands the shirts to her slowly. She accepts them and gently puts them in the bag and hands it to him. It is almost as if she is letting him know of her acceptance of their relationship--and her love for Jack. She had wanted him to find the shirts--she wanted him (the person that he so loved),
to have them and cherish them. She knew of their love for each other and approved or, at least, was accepting of it. This speaks VOLUMES to me.
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it.
Some think this refers to Ennis's confusion over the cause of Jack's death. But that doesn't seem to fit. Ennis only knew what he was told, namely, that Jack's death was an accident. And while he might have believed Jack was murdered, I doubt that he would try to believe Jack was murdered.
Some think it refers to Ennis's supposed confusion over his sexuality. This also seems unlikely. After years of enjoying sex with Jack and a jealous rage over "all them things I don't know", i.e, over Jack's relationships with other men, why would Ennis would fret over sexual labels?
I think it refers to Ennis's knowledge (via Jack's father) that Jack was already seeing another man when Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you." I assume Ennis tried to believe that if Jack had lived, Jack would not really have quit him, would not have brought the Childress ranch neighbor up to Lightning Flat, and Ennis and Jack would have somehow have worked things out.
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Good point Brach. I'm not sure I understood what Annie meant in that prose but your explanation does make sense.
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As to Jack's death, I think it was really an accident and nothing more. The murder is only a prodct of Ennis phantasy that has to do woth childhood experience -remember the scene when he was a boy at his father's hand and had to see the gay farmer couple that was killed.
Laureen on the phone reacts and sounds a little bit strange because she knows or at least feel the rivalry about Jack's love......
The old bastard Twist wants to humilate Ennis by telling about Jack's ideas to settle down with an other guy - if the relationship between father and son was really that bad - which I believe - the son would have never told the old about his ideas.... His mother Jack told everything about his active sex life as well his relationship with Ennis I suppose. To put her hand on his shoulder is probably the strongest scene of the whole movie - her gesture means something like "forget the old bastard's words - it is only provocation". To show Ennis the way up to Jack' s room should reassure him that Jack really loved him till his last days.
I also like the idea of changing the inside shirt to the outer side - the stronger one's shirt is always on the outside for protection reasons.- till his death it is Jack, who is more convinced of the magic of their relationship - afterwards it is Ennis who protects his lover and the unique love, he obvious gained strength & conviction despite his sadness after Jack's death. His life seems to be over, but he stays alive to keep the memory of Jack to live on.
His "Jack, I swear..." goes maybe like that ........I swear, I will always protect you ........., I will always love you................ if I were there you would not have died (you would be still alive) . I miss you so much ................. one day I will bring your ashes to BBM, etc.
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As to Jack's death, I think it was really an accident and nothing more. The murder is only a prodct of Ennis phantasy that has to do woth childhood experience -remember the scene when he was a boy at his father's hand and had to see the gay farmer couple that was killed.
Laureen on the phone reacts and sounds a little bit strange because she knows or at least feel the rivalry about Jack's love......
The old bastard Twist wants to humilate Ennis by telling about Jack's ideas to settle down with an other guy - if the relationship between father and son was really that bad - which I believe - the son would have never told the old about his ideas.... His mother Jack told everything about his active sex life as well his relationship with Ennis I suppose. To put her hand on his shoulder is probably the strongest scene of the whole movie - her gesture means something like "forget the old bastard's words - it is only provocation". To show Ennis the way up to Jack' s room should reassure him that Jack really loved him till his last days.
I also like the idea of changing the inside shirt to the outer side - the stronger one's shirt is always on the outside for protection reasons.- till his death it is Jack, who is more convinced of the magic of their relationship - afterwards it is Ennis who protects his lover and the unique love, he obvious gained strength & conviction despite his sadness after Jack's death. His life seems to be over, but he stays alive to keep the memory of Jack to live on.
His "Jack, I swear..." goes maybe like that ........I swear, I will always protect you ........., I will always love you................ if I were there you would not have died (you would be still alive) . I miss you so much ................. one day I will bring your ashes to BBM, etc.
siredevienne38 ^f^
I think that John Twist obviously knew about Jack's plans because Jack told him. There's no other way how he could know about Ennis and Jack's neighbour in Texas. Why Jack said it in the first place, that's another story? There was a discusion on this. But his father knew the informations that only Jack could told him.
I can not imagine that Jack would talk with his mom about his "active sexual life" even if it's about his wife, not to mention sex with Ennis. All that happened so many years ago in the rural backward society and there's no reasonable possibility to their open conversation on his sexual life. On the other hand, Jack's stories and plans about Ennis sure gave both of his parents pretty good idea what was going on. Of course mother was the understanding part, and I always liked her for giving Jack love and shelter (as much as she could in the cold surroundings of LF and old goat -John Twist).
Mr. Twist's hand on Ennis's shoulder was partially comforting for him and for us during those difficult moments in LF, but IMO it's a surprising moment of Ennis finding 2 shirts in hidden place of Jack's wardrobe, that was the strongest scene in the movie. That scene let the whole story pass before our and Ennis's eyes and at that moment Ennis knew that Jack loved him all his life. :\'(
Sorry to be a little harsh with my reply! ::)
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As to Jack's death, I think it was really an accident and nothing more.
The SS narrative establishes that Jack's death was accidental: Ennis didn't know about the accident for months until his postcard to Jack saying that November still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED.
But Ennis's reaction upon hearing Lureen's account of the accident is that Jack was murdered: No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron.
Yet he's not sure: The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him. He didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack's throat and nobody to turn him over. Under the wind drone he heard steel slamming off bone, the hollow chatter of a settling tire rim.
Later, when Ennis learns from Jack's father that Jack had talked (right after the spring 1983 confrontation) about divorcing Lureen and moving back to the Lightning Flat ranch with a ranch neighbor from Texas, Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered: So now he knew it had been the tire iron.
Regarding the flash in the film of Jack being beaten, that was not a news flash. According to the 2004 screenplay and Ang Lee's comments in an interview with Charlie Rose, it was just what flashed through Ennis's mind at the time.
The murder is only a prodct of Ennis phantasy that has to do woth childhood experience -remember the scene when he was a boy at his father's hand and had to see the gay farmer couple that was killed.
"There was these two old guys ranched together down home, Earl and Rich—Dad would pass a remark when he seen them. They was a joke even though they was pretty tough old birds. I was what, nine years old, and they found Earl dead in a irrigation ditch. They’d took a tire iron to him...Dad made sure I seen it. Took me to see it. Me and K.E. Dad laughed about it. Hell, for all I know he done the job."
We don't know what happened to Rich.
Laureen on the phone reacts and sounds a little bit strange because she knows or at least feel the rivalry about Jack's love......
Actress Anne Hathaway put a spin on Lureen's lines that made it sound like while speaking with Ennis she suddenly realized he and Jack were lovers.
I found that interpretation implausible. How could Lureen believe Jack was in love with a man he saw only one or twice a year on brief fishing or hunting trips 1200 miles from Childress? If would be more plausible for her to believe that they were simply old friends.
Lureen didn't know (or suspect) anything more than what she said she knew:“Jack used to mention you,” she said. “You’re the fishing buddy or the hunting buddy, I know that."
The old bastard Twist wants to humilate Ennis by telling about Jack's ideas to settle down with an other guy - if the relationship between father and son was really that bad - which I believe - the son would have never told the old about his ideas....
It's clear from the story that Jack and his father didn't get along. But I doubt that the author would be so devious as to have Jack's father recall how Jack used to talk about bringing up Ennis and then, in front of his wife, fabricate a tale about Jack talking about divorcing Lureen and bringing up a ranch neighbor.
Even before Ennis heard this from Jack's father, we already had hints that Jack was seeing another man ("the sparks flying up with their truths and lies"), that Jack had already been thinking of leaving Ennis ("I wish I knew out to quit you"), that Jack was resigned ("let be, let be") that his relationship with Ennis would never be what he wanted.
It was spring 1983 when Jack said, "I wish I knew how to quit you." That same spring day Jack made his annual weeklong visit to see the old man. Jack "used a come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas, and help his daddy on the ranch for a week, fix the gates and mow and all.” It was during that visit - within a week after Jack said "I wish I knew how to quit you" - that Jack told his parents he was going to divorce Lureen and move back with a ranch neighbor of his from Texas to help run the ranch.
The old man resented that Jack came only once a year. He really needed Jack full time. He wanted him to live there full time and would not have objected to Jack bringing some other man to live there to help run the ranch.
The old man spoke angrily. “I can’t get no help out here. Jack used a say, ‘Ennis del Mar,’ he used a say, ‘I’m goin a bring him up here one a these days and we’ll lick this damn ranch into shape.’ He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin, and help me run this ranch and bring it up. Then this spring he’s got another one’s goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He’s goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass.”
The old man resented that Jack never followed through on his ideas to improve and help run the ranch.
He resented that Jack had left the Lightning Flat ranch and moved to Texas."He thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot.”
His mother Jack told everything about his active sex life as well his relationship with Ennis I suppose.
While mothers tend to figure these things out, I believe the prevailing policy between Jack and his parents was Don't ask, Don't tell. As for the shirts hidden in Jack's closet, "stiff with long suspension from a nail", I really doubt that Jack's mother knew anything about them, for if she had found them, she would surely have washed and ironed them and hung them neatly on wire hangers beside the "two pairs of jeans crease-ironed and folded neatly over wire hangers." And had Jack really told everything to his mother, then why did the shirts remain hidden?
Another point about the shirts. These are a token of Jack's first summer with Ennis. They signify how much Jack loved Ennis from the beginning. But I don't think they signify his undying love for Ennis. Jack did not trot them out every time he made one of his annual weeklong visit his folks. By the time Jack moved to Childress, he had more or less forgotten about the shirts. Otherwise, he would have taken them to his home in Childress.
To put her hand on his shoulder is probably the strongest scene of the whole movie - her gesture means something like "forget the old bastard's words - it is only provocation". To show Ennis the way up to Jack' s room should reassure him that Jack really loved him till his last days.
The old man spoke angrily. “I can’t get no help out here."
The old man merely resented that Jack never followed through on any of his ideas to move back home to improve and help run the ranch. The old man would not have objected to Jack moving back with another man (Ennis or anyone else) to build a cabin and help run the ranch.
His "Jack, I swear..." goes maybe like that ........I swear, I will always protect you ........., I will always love you................ if I were there you would not have died (you would be still alive) . I miss you so much ................. one day I will bring your ashes to BBM, etc.
“Jack, I swear—” he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.
Ennis isn't swearing to do anything. He's merely overcome with emotion and at a loss for words (note the hypen).
I doubt that the author would be so devious as to make the reader invent promises for Ennis to keep.
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Speaking from experience, when someone dies suddenly like Jack did, it leaves a lot of questions in your mind and you find yourself wondering what if about many situations. I think that's what happened to Ennis. You even find yourself believing the person is still alive some where for just a few moments, even though your mind knows in reality that they are gone. I think the only thing Ennis was really sure of at the end was that he loved Jack and that Jack had loved him all along, going back to that first summer on Brokeback.
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Speaking from experience, when someone dies suddenly like Jack did, it leaves a lot of questions in your mind and you find yourself wondering what if about many situations. I think that's what happened to Ennis. You even find yourself believing the person is still alive some where for just a few moments, even though your mind knows in reality that they are gone. I think the only thing Ennis was really sure of at the end was that he loved Jack and that Jack had loved him all along, going back to that first summer on Brokeback.
Good point! :)
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Speaking from experience, when someone dies suddenly like Jack did, it leaves a lot of questions in your mind and you find yourself wondering what if about many situations. I think that's what happened to Ennis. You even find yourself believing the person is still alive some where for just a few moments, even though your mind knows in reality that they are gone. I think the only thing Ennis was really sure of at the end was that he loved Jack and that Jack had loved him all along, going back to that first summer on Brokeback.
You are suggesting that Ennis knew Jack was dead but tried to believe he was still alive. I didn't see any evidence that Ennis tried to believe Jack was still alive. If Ennis still believed Jack was alive, then whose ashes was Ennis trying to collect from Jack's parents?
Diehard romantics are very certain that Jack loved Ennis to the end, but I don't think Ennis was so certain. When Jack told Ennis "I wish I knew how to quit you", Ennis had to suspect that Jack had already been thinking of leaving him. His suspicion was later confirmed when he learned that shortly after Jack had said "I wish I knew how to quit you", he told his folks that he was divorcing Lureen and moving back to the ranch with another man to build a place and help run the ranch. This is knowledge Ennis could not completely dismiss, even if he tried to believe Jack still loved him.
The shirts are evidence that Jack had loved Ennis from the beginning; not evidence that he would love him eternally. Jack did not trot out the shirts every time he made one of his annual weeklong visit his folks. Jack had more or less forgotten about the shirts. Otherwise, he would have kept them at his home in Childress.
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You are suggesting that Ennis knew Jack was dead but tried to believe he was still alive. I didn't see any evidence that Ennis tried to believe Jack was still alive. If Ennis still believed Jack was alive, then whose ashes was Ennis trying to collect from Jack's parents?
Ennis knew Jack had died. Let me clarify what I was trying to say. My sister-in-law died suddenly a couple of years ago. She lived across the state from me so i didn't see her on a regular basis but we kept in touch by phone. There are times for a split second I think " I should call her and tell her about that, or what happened to me today" and then my mind snaps me back into reality and I remember she's gone from this world. That's what I meant when I said it might have been that way for Ennis. When someone is taken so suddenly especially one you don't see regularly, some times in your daily life for just a moment your mind believes they are still alive.
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Ennis knew Jack had died. Let me clarify what I was trying to say. My sister-in-law died suddenly a couple of years ago. She lived across the state from me so i didn't see her on a regular basis but we kept in touch by phone. There are times for a split second I think " I should call her and tell her about that, or what happened to me today" and then my mind snaps me back into reality and I remember she's gone from this world. That's what I meant when I said it might have been that way for Ennis. When someone is taken so suddenly especially one you don't see regularly, some times in your daily life for just a moment your mind believes they are still alive.
Yes. I understand what you are saying.
But in the story quotation we are analyzing
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it.
the operative words are TRIED TO BELIEVE.
You had a habit a calling a relative on a whim, and you may momentarily forget she cannot answer.
You might even wish that she were still alive so she could answer.
But you do not TRY TO BELIEVE that she is still alive or that she can answer.
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I'm so glad to find this thread, I was wondering about that line from the minute I've read it. I thought this was one of the most beautiful lines in the story, and although I wasn't sure what had Annie meant by that "open spaces" and what Ennis wanted to believe, every time I read this line it made me feel this sadness that I couldn't explain.
I'm greatful to everyone who sent their thoughts here. I agree that the open space is a kind of a cognitive dissonance, but there is more than one explanation that seems reasonable to me: it could be that Ennis knew he loved Jack but tried to believe that he was straight. it could be that he tried to believe that Jack was faithful to him although he knew he wasn't Jack's only one (well at least not sexually). And I was just thinking, that maybe the open space was between what he knew - that Jack was dead, and what he tried/wanted to believe - that Jack is still somewhere out there, waiting for him... but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you gou've got to stand it. :'(
I love last sentence of your post as it says what I feel (try to feel?).
Ennis knew Jack was dead but believed they both would be together again. He already knew that love like theirs never ends. He kept holding Jack in his heart every minute of his life and believed Jack did the same, wherever he actually was. Ennis was waiting to meet Jack and belived Jack was waiting to welcome him like many times before. He would be lost without his belief so Jack started to support Ennis appearing in his dreams. To help keep the faith, to be with his best friend just for a while. The open space between "knew" and "try to believe" is for me the space for our human suspense and imperfection, space for our debts and fear.
Jack, I swear I will never let you go again.
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I love last sentence of your post as it says what I feel (try to feel?).
Ennis knew Jack was dead but believed they both would be together again. He already knew that love like theirs never ends. He kept holding Jack in his heart every minute of his life and believed Jack did the same, wherever he actually was. Ennis was waiting to meet Jack and belived Jack was waiting to welcome him like many times before. He would be lost without his belief so Jack started to support Ennis appearing in his dreams. To help keep the faith, to be with his best friend just for a while. The open space between "knew" and "try to believe" is for me the space for our human suspense and imperfection, space for our debts and fear.
Jack, I swear I will never let you go again.
Lovely words! Ennis and Jack met very rarely during those 17 years and most of their lives (sadly :\'( ) they've lived apart. And now when Jack is actually gone forever ( :\'( ), Ennis still lives the same life - waiting for those beautiful days that he is going to spend with his friend and lover, with his Jack F*&%ng Twist!
Jack will never come again to meet him on the mountain, so Ennis moved his mind and soul to an open space where reality and dreams become one. Where Jack IS actually part of his life. Poor Ennis! And poor my little darlin' Jack! :\'(
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I love you said "an open space where reality and dreams become one". It's wonderfull.
"His friend and lover" - could you imagine loving and missing so desparately just a lover?
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Love came after their deep friendship, so I often say "friend(s) and lover(s)" - cos it describes so well my 2 strong loving cowboys! <^(
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Diehard romantics are very certain that Jack loved Ennis to the end, but I don't think Ennis was so certain. When Jack told Ennis "I wish I knew how to quit you", Ennis had to suspect that Jack had already been thinking of leaving him. His suspicion was later confirmed when he learned that shortly after Jack had said "I wish I knew how to quit you", he told his folks that he was divorcing Lureen and moving back to the ranch with another man to build a place and help run the ranch. This is knowledge Ennis could not completely dismiss, even if he tried to believe Jack still loved him.
The shirts are evidence that Jack had loved Ennis from the beginning; not evidence that he would love him eternally. Jack did not trot out the shirts every time he made one of his annual weeklong visit his folks. Jack had more or less forgotten about the shirts. Otherwise, he would have kept them at his home in Childress.
It takes a long time to read everything in the forum;-)) so it has lasted a while before I came to read this. What Brach wrote reminds me of my thoughts I always had on the last sentence .........between "what he knew" (= that Jake had planned to move to Lightning Flat with another man) "and what he t r i e d to believe" (= that in spite of this fact (!) Jake had still loved him - Ennis - as much as before). To me, the "open space" of course refers to the accident-/or murder-fact - but MAINLY to the fact that from a certain point Ennis cannot be sure of Jake's feelings/love for him. Maybe Jake even wouldn't have come to the next meeting that Ennis was hoping for and that he had announced on the postcard? Ennis will NEVER know the truth about that , and for me that's the sadest point of the whole story. Even worse than Jake's death itself.... when a beloved person dies you can keep her in loving memory, never forget about her ... surely Ennis will do so - but the fact of not knowing about Jakes feelings for Ennis during the last months(?) before his death is even worse. So sad....!!! I'm not sure again if I could make my thoughts clear, I just tried;-( and had to state this.
But: Concerning the hidden shirts - it seems logical for me that Jake kept them at Lightning Flat. If he had them at home maybe Lureen could have found them and could have asked inconvenient questions?? On the other hand - maybe Brach is right and the fact that the shirts were kept in Jakes room at Lightning Flat state that Jakes' feelings weren't the same as before, the shirts weren't as valuable as before to him... :\'(
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It takes a long time to read everything in the forum;-)) so it has lasted a while before I came to read this. What Brach wrote reminds me of my thoughts I always had on the last sentence .........between "what he knew" (= that Jake had planned to move to Lightning Flat with another man) "and what he t r i e d to believe" (= that in spite of this fact (!) Jake had still loved him - Ennis - as much as before). To me, the "open space" of course refers to the accident-/or murder-fact - but MAINLY to the fact that from a certain point Ennis cannot be sure of Jake's feelings/love for him. Maybe Jake even wouldn't have come to the next meeting that Ennis was hoping for and that he had announced on the postcard? Ennis will NEVER know the truth about that , and for me that's the sadest point of the whole story. Even worse than Jake's death itself.... when a beloved person dies you can keep her in loving memory, never forget about her ... surely Ennis will do so - but the fact of not knowing about Jakes feelings for Ennis during the last months(?) before his death is even worse. So sad....!!! I'm not sure again if I could make my thoughts clear, I just tried;-( and had to state this.
But: Concerning the hidden shirts - it seems logical for me that Jake kept them at Lightning Flat. If he had them at home maybe Lureen could have found them and could have asked inconvenient questions?? On the other hand - maybe Brach is right and the fact that the shirts were kept in Jakes room at Lightning Flat state that Jakes' feelings weren't the same as before, the shirts weren't as valuable as before to him... :\'(
Hi brokebacksoul!
It is Jack, not Jake! Jake is alive! ;) ;D
Well, for me the open space could be Ennis's life without Jack - empty and meaningless. And what he knew and tried to believe... I always thought that he knew that Jack was dead, but he tried to believe that he'd meet him in a month or so... I know that it sounds too romantic or even naive, but can't help it.
It is the beauty of the open space in the movie - giving us the space to be open to any possibility. And I have chosen mine!
:c)
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Hi brokebacksoul!
It is Jack, not Jake! Jake is alive! ;) ;D
:c)
Hi Loreen -
%&) %&)
Jake and/or Jack .. didn't notice that while posting.
Probably because everything concerning BBM still drives me crazy ::)
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Hi Loreen -
%&) %&)
Jake and/or Jack .. didn't notice that while posting.
Probably because everything concerning BBM still drives me crazy ::)
You're in good company! ;)
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Hi, new here..... :)
I wanted to comment on the intriguing question regarding this quote from the short story:
'There was some space between what he knew and what he tried to believe...'
I think the shirts told Ennis how Jack felt; and subsequently, perhaps the rage that Jack displayed at the last meeting becomes explicable to Ennis, in a way it had not before. So the idea of a ranch neighbor, though hurtful, is not so shocking, really. Ennis has come to understand Jack's truest needs and wants in the short time span since his death, with one shock after the other showing him the light.
Also, I think if the 'imagined power of Brokeback mountian' disappears with the finding of the shirts, then Ennis realizes that there was a real thing between them, not just the mountain's magical spell...He has to acknowledge his own feelings, in order to accept Jack's, to an extent.
So...
If he believes in Jack's love; and realizes he felt the same, there is one terrible thing he must be left wondering:
He knew how Jack felt-but did Jack know how he-Ennis-felt.
I think that is the meaning of the 'space'. He tries to believe Jack knew; but he knows he failed at demonstrating it-for if he had, why was Jack so unhappy?
:(
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Dear nonamelake:
Welcome to the forum, glad to have you on board. You've got an interesting and insightful interpretation of this simple line, even after a few years it's amazing to me the various ways folks read and appreciate this work. I think you're sure right that Ennis tried to believe (and maybe did believe) that Jack knew. Thanks.
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Welocme, nonamelake. I echo jackster's comments. I think Jack was unhappy because even though he knew how much Ennis loved him, he also understood in the end that there was probably no way he could ever get Ennis to join him in the sweet life. But no matter how Jack thought of "moving on" from there, he was secure in the notion that he was loved -- in spite of Ennis's fears and limitations.
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Welcome,nonamelake¡.I can't add anything to what Jackster and Tpe have said so well...Only that IMO both of them knew they were loved,but sometimes they needed a kind of confirmation,specially in Jack's case.And in the end,Ennis needed more than only this confirmation,because he tried to believe Jack had loved until the very end,but maybe he was not so sure as before...However,this phrase means that the "open space" is the many interpretations each one of us can give to their feelings and reactions-the same,more or less,than in the infamous"Jack,I swear..."-.
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If he believes in Jack's love; and realizes he felt the same, there is one terrible thing he must be left wondering:
He knew how Jack felt-but did Jack know how he-Ennis-felt.
I think that is the meaning of the 'space'. He tries to believe Jack knew; but he knows he failed at demonstrating it-for if he had, why was Jack so unhappy?
:(
Yes, :h) and welcome from me, too, nonamelake!!! Another very interesting view again on our Short (but neverending) Story.
Really like to occupy with the different thoughts of all of you
^f^
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Thank you all for the welcome... :)
I would dearly love to think Jack knew he was loved..but his comments about high-altitude f*cks, and what I see as despair that led to his death, was not only about them not living together-I think he lost that dream after the divorce. ('...and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call...')
In the bitter end, right before Ennis goes upstairs and finds the shirts at the parents' ranch, he remembers the terrible childhood bathroom story Jack once told him. The upshot from Jack is that he could not get it right with his father.
I have to wonder if the reason we are told about that, is that Ennis knows he did not let Jack get it right with him. We are told he 'recognized' the stud duck. Well, he called the major shots between Jack and him; that 'short leash' comment of Jack's tells us that Jack felt this way, at least.
Of course, I think this all comes as a terrible shock to Ennis, this realization of what his part might have been in Jack's demise. I keep wanting to ask, 'Where were you while he was withering away in Texas?' Of course, the answer is always the same: Ennis was withering away up in Wyoming-only he didn't know it. He didn't want to know is a phrase the author applies to him at least twice in the short story.
Thanks for listening.
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Another very thoughtful view of events and storylines NNL. I believe you're right (and clever) to connect the two statements from the SS about Jack “not getting it right” with either old man Twist or Ennis. I'd only add to this that Jack - in his own way, and by his own admission, rarely “got it right” with anything - "But f*** all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way." I feel this is another peek into Jack's soul – that pretty much speaks for itself. Justified or not is another matter.
I honestly have never really understood the “short f**kin’ leash” comment. Maybe, bein’ an Ennis I can't see the forest here, but I always think of being kept on a leash as, like a dog being handed instructions about what to, and what not to do. Maybe Ennis seems to use one of those invisible leashes. Other than his comment during the reunion campfire about “two guys livin’ together” I don't see where he’s particularly instructive to Jack in any way about his or their lives. So it's always baffled me, if we'd seen Ennis threatening to leave or to not see Jack if certain behavior was or wasn't adhered to, then I guess I could understand him pushing Jack around. But it didn't seem like he was pressuring Jack one way or the other, he just wouldn't, couldn't, do the one thing Jack wanted to (the sweet life).
'...and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call...' What was the reason for the call? Of course Ennis wanted to let Jack know ‘bout the divorce, but that could have been a postcard, musta’ known it was comin’. Why call, what was the reason? Huh? Never really understood that either. Wasn't as if Alma had been keeping them apart, (more likely it was the girls), but that wasn't changing, so why call? Easy to see why maybe Jack did misunderstand. Maybe Ennis was (subconsciously) crying out for some love, needed to know somebody did care.
sorry way OT here
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Hello, Jackster:
I agree it is puzzling, because so much is left unsaid....
It seems to me this is where the short leash comes in: Jack is expressing how much emotional control Ennis has over him, and he's doing what Ennis does sometimes: He places the blame for his feelings outside of himself. (Another BBM fan pointed out to me once that line about Ennis wanting to curse Lureen for 'letting Jack die on the dirt road.':She wasn't woman enough to keep him away from men....it's her fault, in Ennis's estimation.)
I'm reminded, with regards to the short leash, of the line, 'For he loved a little dog.' (Proulx, about Jack). He sees himself as being kicked around by the father, as being subhuman, perhaps. The father beat him after peeing in the wrong place, something in his toddler's mind remained unreconciled as an adult. So I think the short leash kind of echoes that, and connects the father with Ennis. (He got punched by Ennis, as an adult, for a similiar reason-he was not behaving "manly"; he was ministering to Ennis in the columbine, but with the added impact of generating feelings in Ennis that Ennis could not accept in himself.)
As you said, I bet the phone call was an outcry for love. Who better to turn to after the trauma of losing family #2, then someone he was assured would love him? I don't think he realized what he was doing emotionally to Jack, with that phone call. He was taking a frail thread of hope Jack had about living together-for Ennis had already told him years before that it would never happen- and dashing it for good. It it was not an effort to get some support and comfort, then I can't think of any other reason he'd call Jack-can anyone else? I can't.
So the space keeps suggesting to me that Ennis is realizing now what his role was in the failure part of the relationship: As fragilelover noted, lots of things didn't come to Jack the right way-if he says, 'f*** all', then the 'all' must include the relationship with Ennis.
FWIW
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.
What he knew versus what he tried to believe was something he couldn't fix. I read two ways. One, it as guilt or blame over Jack's death. I saw it as Ennis regretting his choices with Jack and blaming himself for his death. If he had agreed to be with Jack in Wyoming, he wouldn't have gotten killed over Randall in Texas. He knew this but tried to believe that instead of one, they'd both be dead if he had taken a life with Jack. Two, he knew, on some level, that he had a bad life because of fear and could've had a good life with Jack if he had taken a risk. He tried to believe that the life could never have been.
So what can't he fix so he has to stand? Regret.
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Hi Jackster.
Being new here I guess I don’t know about BBM as much as you do yet, but I think I get what Jack was talking about when he bitched about the short leash.
Jack met Ennis every time under Ennis conditions, not his. Ennis said that they’d meet 1. once in a while, and 2. in the middle of nowhere. Surely had Jack not agreed with this they’d not have met again. Jack’d see Ennis following Ennis rules of once in a while and only in the middle of nowhere.
Of course there are also those “not to the sweet life”, “don’t want you here because people (in that white truck, maybe?) can see us and figure us out (that was implicit in the divorce scene even if he didn’t say the words), and “don’t gonna move to Texas or somewhere else to be near you” (again implicit/suggested in the scene by the river side when Ennis asked Jack is he thought that people knew). So again we can see that Ennis made pretty clear how things were gonna go in their relationship. Jack had not a word there, had not a saying. It was Ennis style or nothing at all. Had Jack not been trapped with that short leash he’d seen Ennis sure in another setting and not only once or twice a year. But Jack never stood a chance against Ennis ghosts. :( :(
At least this is how I see it. Of course I am not judging any of our cowboys. I love them both so much.
Thanks for reading.
I can agree with this. Ennis set the rules and Jack was to follow them or to give up Ennis. (At least he believed so, but was it true?) And Jack definitely didn't want to give up on Ennis.
Yup! There was a leash, and it expresses Jack's need to be with Ennis, even if that relationship was taking away all his freedom.
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I checked out the book Close Range from the library, and re-read the story a few times. That last line I was thinking about, and this is my take on it.
What Ennis KNEW: Jack truly loved him, and he truly loved Jack. The love they had was something most people don't find, it was something truly special. Ennis finally accepts his homosexuality, understanding that he was in love with a man, and there was nothing wrong with that. Society had made him believe that there was something wrong with him if he was "queer", hence he had spent all those years fiercely struggling with his feelings and who he was, but now he finally understood that society is wrong and there is nothing wrong with him, and what he was doing was not a sin to be punished for. He is no longer in denial of his true nature, and he accepts himself and the love for Jack as something good and pure. He is no longer afraid of it, (symbolic of this is him hanging the shirts on a wall, signifying that he is no longer "in the closet" as the saying goes, and neither is Jack. Their love is now openly acknowledged.
Also, Ennis feels immense sorrow and regret at having repeatedly denied Jack and himself happiness. He has a thousand thoughts about what if, what if. What if he had never married Alma? What if he had instead gone to Ligntning Flat that fall/winter after the 1963 summer, like Jack hinted he should, or if he had decided to get in Jack's truck that last day and ride off with him? Even after that first mistake, there was still another chance four years later. What if he had accepted Jack's proposal at their reunion getaway and gone with him then? What if in all the intermittent years he had finally accepted Jack's proposals? If he had gone to Texas with him? Or Denver? What if he hadn't turned Jack away after the divorce? Think about all the chances he had, and he messed it up time and again. He blames himself for it all, and it's a tremendous burden to carry, all that regret. He lived a life of regrets, and he frankly couldn't go on for another 20, 30, 40 years without Jack with that huge burden on his shoulders.
What Ennis TRIED TO BELIEVE: So he tried to believe that what he had done was protect them. That by denying that sweet life together he had saved Jack and himself from a death similar to Rich and Earl's. Even though, he knew Jack, most likely still had been killed in hate crime, Ennis tried to believe that what he had done had given both himself and Jack twenty years of living, whereas, they would have been killed 20 or 15 or 10 years before if he had accepted Jack's proposal and decided to live his life with him. Of course, deep down, Ennis knows he is lying to himself. That what he had done (not accepted the sweet life together) had only caused both of them a lot of pain and suffering, and it had hurt Jack even more, it had not saved their lives from a violent and heinous death, it was done out of Ennis's fears, and was not worth it. But he had to make himself believe that because the regret and sorrow was too much to live with for the next thirty years, much less the next two months. It pained him too much to realize the mistakes he'd made, and now Jack was gone and he finally realized how much he'd hurt Jack by refusing, and how miserable he'd made himself.
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Thanks for sharing this, bluemountainsky.
Sometimes, all we have is the certainty of our beliefs. It is too hard to accept that sometimes we go wrong, even in this. But the secret of redemption is to know that we do not need absolute certainty. This is how love works. We take the leap, even in uncertainty. It is at the very core of the act of believing...
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Thanks for sharing this, bluemountainsky
Sometimes, all we have is the certainty of our beliefs. It is too hard to accept that sometimes we go wrong, even in this. But the secret of redemption is to know that we do not need absolute certainty. This is how love works. We take the leap, even in uncertainty. It is at the very core of the act of believing...
I believe that is how Ennis had felt all those years, deeply in love with Jack, yet always with that doubt in the back of his mind...what is this thing really? Does he really, truly love me? He knew...but that uncertainty was always creeping up in his mind. When he finds the shirts, then he understands, he realizes that he's been truly loved all those years, and he realizes the extent of that love, and exactly what he meant to Jack. The pain of finally being certain, but it's too late. It's heartbreaking to think of Ennis living alone all those years, with only his dreams of Jack to comfort him. But those too would be bittersweet. The dreams made him happy because in them he was in his lover's arms again, but when he woke up the heavy realization that Jack was gone hit hard again, and then the tears came.
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It could also mean that what Ennis was still trying to believe that he wasn't gay, but he knew he was...however that means Ennis hasn't had much progress in accepting who is after all that time. He could no longer say to himself that Jack wasn't gay after he found out about Jack's affairs, so he'd given up on that, there came a point where he could no longer try to convince himself Jack wasn't gay. But as for himself...did he still lie to himself, did he still try to convince himself, was he still in so much denial? I'd like to think that he did indeed acknowledge, in the end, standing outside Jack's closet with those two shirts, that he was in fact "queer". It's sad if he didn't...really shows how terribly the internalized homophobia has ruined him for life, and..I do believe that it was Annie Proulx's main message, the saddest part of a homophobic society is the self-loathing it causes. The television series Cold Case had a number of episodes that dealt with that issue. The cop who stands there, now an old man, and still says that he isn't queer, wants desperately for the detectives to believe he isn't, because he's so ashamed of the fact he is. The 90 year-old woman who sits on the part bench remembering her female lover who died 70 years prior, and realizing that was the only person she truly ever loved, but still asks "was it wrong to feel that way?" Even just a few years ago, a young college student killed himself after being found out.
The extent of damage that internalized homophobia does is horrible. But Ennis I think does make a self-discovery in the end, and became more accepting of himself and his orientation. He might not go to the gay pride parade, but I believe he was no longer in denial and accepted that him being gay wasn't shameful or wrong. I think what he knew and what he wanted to believe at that point was simply that he it wasn't his fault, he had no choice but to live the lie he did, he was powerless in such a society, but of course he knew it was ultimately his fault that he denied Jack a life together, and he knew how much he'd hurt Jack by doing this, but he needed to believe that there was nothing else he could have done because it was a way to cope with his immense sorrow and regret.