Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: jerasjr on May 02, 2006, 11:08 AM
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Am personally getting tired of hearing all the "bad" things that Jack did. Did not view Ennis as sympathetically as so many did.
Have some thoughts on this, but am under time constraints at the moment, so if you have some comments, go ahead.
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I can think of a few things :)
1) marrying Alma after falling in love with someone else
2)keeping Jack hooked and not giving him ANYthing of what he wants
3) going into ANOTHER relationship he isn't really committed to, Cassie, when he is still in love with someone else
4) leaving Jack that morning and not saying anything, actually he was going to sneak of without seeing Jack at all
5) not having the courage to ask Jack to wait until he had sent his daughters home ehn Jack drives all that way after Ennis' divorce
I like Ennis and I think alot of this isn't really his fault but I don't think these are very nice things to do...
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Am personally getting tired of hearing all the "bad" things that Jack did. Did not view Ennis as sympathetically as so many did.
Have some thoughts on this, but am under time constraints at the moment, so if you have some comments, go ahead.
What bad things did Jack do? What bad things did either of them do for that matter? You can't write that and just leave without an explanation of what you mean! ;D I never really liked Ennis. It took several viewings before I like him and Jack. I discovered the reason was because I am Ennis and I didn't like admitting that. But, what do you mean?
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I think they both do some bad things, if you mean bad in terms of having a relationship and making it work (Jack going to Mexico and having a thing with Randall, Ennis for a lot of the reasons that Esme mentioned above) - and maybe Ennis is slightly more guilty than Jack in this respect because of his refusal to face up to what he's feeling, but there's nothing that makes me dislike either character.
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but there's nothing that makes me dislike either character.
neither do I :)
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Frankly I don't think Jack did anything wrong at all in the context of his relationship with Ennis. He gave 100% of himself to Ennis and their love and was willing to leave his wife, his son, his "comfortable" life to be with Ennis at any time in any way he could.
Ennis did the best he could but could not handle the relationship beyond a few "fishing trips" a year. I don't know that this makes him bad but certainly makes him less committed to the relationship than Jack. He (Ennis) had valid reasons for this, but nonetheless he wasn't as strong in the relationship.
Both could and probably should be faulted for having married (I know this...I am living it). Marriage cannot make you straight and cannot hide you from what you are. So as someone said earlier getting married might be perceived as one of the "bad" (I hate that word) actions that both Ennis and Jack took in their lives.
Ennis didn't want to hurt Cassie but he did. he should NEVER have let that relationship get farther than friendship. He knew very well at that point that he wasn't capable of anything more than friendship with Cassie and that she wanted marriage.
As for Randall and Jack...if anything happened I would imagine it was nothing more than physical. Jack would have run back to Ennis in a second if Ennis wanted him.
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All of the above, what really gets me is everytime i watch the movie and see them going their seperate ways at the end of the summer, jack asks ennis if he's going to come back next summer and ennis says "see ya around them"
I just want to punch him on the nose.
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"bad" (I hate that word)
As a woman i would definatly think a man BAD if he did to me what Ennis did to Cassie :) and men have done so, and I have thought them bad
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All of the above, what really gets me is everytime i watch the movie and see them going their seperate ways at the end of the summer, jack asks ennis if he's going to come back next summer and ennis says "see ya around them"
I just want to punch him on the nose.
I agree..there are many instances like this when Ennis seems so insensitive and cold...the part where I really dislike Ennis the most is what I described above...after the divorce when Jack drives all the way up to Riverton to see him.......I want to do more then punch him in the nose!
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Am personally getting tired of hearing all the "bad" things that Jack did. Did not view Ennis as sympathetically as so many did.
Have some thoughts on this, but am under time constraints at the moment, so if you have some comments, go ahead.
hummm.. can open, worms everywhere!! ;)
Jerasjr, you're going to get some interesting feedback on this gem, no doubt about it.
I too sometimes find it hard to be sympathetic to Ennis, although I try not to be too harsh on him because you do see that he's suffering so much.
For me, I pity Ennis greatly, but Jack breaks my heart. Maybe because Ennis appears to sabotage any chance they have for happiness, (as Johnboy notes with the "see ya around" comment ) whether out of fear, denial, stubbornness, whatever. I'm sure he was a seething mass of contradicting emotions that confused him to the point where he just couldn't take those important steps forward.
But his problems become Jack's because Jack ties his whole world up in Ennis. Every time Ennis denies happiness for himself, he's denying it to Jack, too, which is why Jack's situation is the more heartbreaking of the two (IMO).
We label their actions "good" or "bad" from the distance of hindsight, never actually having to live their lives. Both Ennis and Jack end up making choices that might be labelled "bad" but honestly, putting yourself in their positions, in that time and place, forgetting for a moment options available to an urban dweller in 2006, no choices were easy for them. They both did the best they could, being who they were, when they were.
Having said that ... I always end up with a kind of frustrated affection for Ennis.
One habit of his that makes me want to kick him is how he gets so nervous about being seen with Jack. For that reunion kiss, he looks around first before pulling Jack into the stairwell (understandable), then when he's ready to stop, he looks around nervously again as he holds Jack off from continuing.
But the worst has got to be in the divorce misunderstanding scene. Poor Jack drives 14 hours to see him, thinking it had been Ennis's unwillingness to end his marriage that had kept the two of them apart before, only to find out that wasn't the critical factor at all. And to make matters worse, as Ennis is giving Jack his muddled reasons for turning him away, he gets completely distracted by a truck passing by in the distance, so that his voice trails off to nothing. Ennis doesn't even give Jack his full attention as he's crushing his dreams.
You see light dawning and hope dying in Jack's eyes; Ennis is not only fearful of physical reprisals from this relationship, he is on a deeper level ashamed of it. I think (and many may disagree, it's just a feeling I get) that Ennis is as fearful of being labeled a "queer" as he is of being killed for it. And I believe that it was that sense of shame projected onto him by Ennis, in addition to the stark rejection, that sent Jack to Mexico that day. This to me is Ennis's least forgivable act, because of the pain it inflicted on Jack ... although part of me feels sorry for Ennis too. (Gee, maybe I'm as conflicted as Ennis was???)
Now I'm going to go out on a limb and go against a common opinion I've heard expressed by some "friends" who saw BBM ... I don't fault either Jack or Ennis for their marriages. I don't think either married as a "beard" since neither man identified themselves as "queer" at that time. Marriage and a family was what both men were raised to feel was expected of them in life. They didn't have an alternative lifestyle available to them, either, in that time and place, not one they could live comfortably with. (not in any way suggesting that the marriags weren't horrible mistakes, or that their wives didn't deserve better, only suggesting that holding Jack and Ennis as complete villians for it may be over simplifying the issue since they dind't set out intentionaly deceive ... whole other topic!)
Their other relationships, Randall and Cassie, likely happened out of sheer loneliness, which I know doesn't make it right, only maybe understandable and very, very sad.
Regardless, as others have stated ... we love both these men as much for their flaws as their strengths. They were (are?) only human, after all. :)
See.. as noted ... worms everywhere!
Looking forward to seeing more of the responses you get to this, Jerasjr; should be interesting reading! ;D
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"bad" (I hate that word)
As a woman i would definatly think a man BAD if he did to me what Ennis did to Cassie :) and men have done so, and I have thought them bad
I would have to agree with you on that.....
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Loved your post...many valid points...Mississaugared
Being labeled a queer in the 1960s was a pretty terrible thing to happen to a guy..especially one who was a cowboy and as masculine as Ennis...so I think you are right on there about Ennis fear of that...
I do think (and agree) that both Jack and Ennis got married because they thought that was what expected of them and they certainly did love their wives in their own way.....but NOT in the way they loved each other....I know I go out on a limb here but I do understand this very well ...as I said....I am living this still....
And you are right that the choices available to ANYONE in the 60s and 70s are far different from those available now for any type of same sex lifestyle. For the most part it was unheard of.....
But (and this is probably OT) there is one thing they DID have...and that was each other....amidst the pain, anguish, confusion, fear, and conflict they must have known they had a love so strong that it truly would never die.....(now I sound like a song...sorry)...anyway better stop...this hits too close to home
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Bad isn't the same as evil imo. I agree with alot of what MississaugaRed said, and it isn't black or white...but No matter what circumstanses you live under you still have free will, and Ennis was to much of a coward to truly look at what he had, and be man enough to stand up for it..He was scared, and that made him make bad decissions
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Sorry Patriot that I didn't have time to post what I was thinking at the moment, but as I said, was under time constraints and had to leave. But it is interesting to see what has been posted so far. I offered a subject and there are evidently people who have something to say. Esme in particular stated some of the things that I would have.
My reason for starting this thread is that one reads Jack... went to Mexico, met Randall, flirted with the rodeo clown, etc... and I get the feeling that many see Jack as "bad" -even a slut - because of these actions.
But I say good for Jack, he acted - he attempted to live his life - even with the burden of Ennis' love.
Ended up feeling that for whatever reason, Ennis was selfish *- with himself, with his family,with Jack. He could not get past the child, and become more of an adult.
*Modified this, think egocentric would be better used here.
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But (and this is probably OT) there is one thing they DID have...and that was each other....amidst the pain, anguish, confusion, fear, and conflict they must have known they had a love so strong that it truly would never die.....(now I sound like a song...sorry)...anyway better stop...this hits too close to home
May be OT but extremely valid, Bubbaluna! It occurred to me as I was thinking of some of the things that were bothering me that if the boys had been as critical of each other as we're getting the opportunity to do here, they would never have stayed together for 20 years. (???)
But .. we can pick at parts of their relationship and still value it.
No, Ennis wasn't able to get past his fear to find real happiness, and yes, Jack's impulsiveness & loneliness, his willingness to take risks in order to experience real life, may have led to a few reckless choices; ultimately, as Esme stated, there was free will in all their actions, good and bad.
For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing?? Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey. I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time. Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself?? :-\ I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell. :P
And Jerasjr is right - a lot of what you read outside of places like this will focus on the way that Jack want after what he wanted in life like it was a negative thing, as if you become a candidate for Sainthood by denying yourself a shot at what you want most. What's with that??
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And Jerasjr is right - a lot of what you read outside of places like this will focus on the way that Jack want after what he wanted in life like it was a negative thing, as if you become a candidate for Sainthood by denying yourself a shot at what you want most. What's with that??[/b]
I find this totally baffling as well...If you don't go after what YOU want...no one is going to be standing there giving it to you...that's for sure!!! Jack was first and foremost human but he had a lot of love and HAD Ennis responded with some hope for their relationship to GROW I believe Jack would have stayed faithful to him 100%....Jack is definitely who I am!
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And had Jack been a woman he would most certainly hava had a big Scarlet A on his chest :)
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And had Jack been a woman he would most certainly hava had a big Scarlet A on his chest :)
but do you think that would have been right????
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Guys why we have to categorized them as bad or good i don't think it is fair for them they were just humans like us and as humans are capable of doing mistakes yes it is right both of them did them and we can be identified with one of them and punish the other for his actions but they did what they thought it was correct. i don't see them as a bad guys for me they have their right of make mistake which of us is perfect? No one is and then why we want to find a bad boy here?
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And had Jack been a woman he would most certainly hava had a big Scarlet A on his chest :)
but do you think that would have been right????
No I don't...but women that behave as "predators" are always looked on as scarlet women or hores... depending on what era u'r in... this comes from the fact that Women aren't supposed to go after a man, and I am guessing in some circles a man isn't supposed to go after anohter man either...
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I just found this thread, very interresting one, very good posts.
My 2 cents,
Ennis is not the bad boy, he's just the victim of his education and that trauma he got when his dad shown him the corpse of Earl. Of course everyone that will come across him during the 20 years of his affair with Jack will suffer but it's not happening because he's bad, he is lost and d*mned scared. He starts to change at the very end of the movie only when he finally accepts to attend Junior's wedding but, it's too late he lost Jack. :'(
Jack is not a bad boy either.
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And had Jack been a woman he would most certainly hava had a big Scarlet A on his chest :)
but do you think that would have been right????
No I don't...but women that behave as "predators" are always looked on as scarlet women or hores... depending on what era u'r in... this comes from the fact that Women aren't supposed to go after a man, and I am guessing in some circles a man isn't supposed to go after anohter man either...
well let's make THIS forum a starting place to change all that!!!
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Let's :) but with films like Basic instinct getting a rerun...well...
but that was OT
Chameau, I agree that neither of htem are bad, thay aer not doing this intentionally to hurt someone I feel, but it is no effort on Ennis part to change this... damn, his most memorable line in the entire film is
IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT YOU GOTTA STAND IT
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Let's :) but with films like Basic instinct getting a rerun...well...
but that was OT
Chameau, I agree that neither of htem are bad, thay aer not doing this intentionally to hurt someone I feel, but it is no effort on Ennis part to change this... damn, his most memorable line in the entire film is
IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT YOU GOTTA STAND IT
Yes, he's scared to death, look at his reaction when Alma out's him in the kitchen.
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See Carlos, think that this is what this thread is bringing out - exactly what you say, that they shouldn't be labeled as either bad or good - by their actions. But before this, there was a bit of Jack bashing in other threads... to chat to try to fathom why things happened or what either one did is one thing... to label what they did as bad or good is not necessary and neither is labeling the person as bad or good.
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See Carlos, think that this is what this thread is bringing out - exactly what you say, that they shouldn't be labeled as either bad or good - by their actions. But before this, there was a bit of Jack bashing in other threads... to chat to try to fathom why things happened or what either one did is one thing... to label what they did as bad or good is not necessary and neither is labeling the person as bad or good.
WHO would DARE bash Jack Twist?????
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Leave it to you jerasjr to start such an interesting and intelligent thread. I, for the most part, don't look at those other forums simply because they do not seem to have kind and truly caring people that we have here, so their take on good or bad and the take on good or bad I hear from some critics and people I have talked to about the movie mean nothing to me.
That being said, it appears that the general concensus here is that neither Jack nor Ennis were bad. If each of us looks back on our individual lives we will probably see things we regret having done and some of those things, in today's light may look bad. I know I regret some of the things I have done in my life. But, if you study closely the context in which they were done I think you will find that at the time there were positive motivations for doing them. I hope I am not being to vague here. I believe that men and women are inherently good. Evil is not the natural state of humans much as it may seem to the contrary in the world we live in today.
It is almost impossible for us living in the year 2006 too look back and fully understand what Ennis and Jack's world was like. I don't think any of us grew up in rural Wyoming in the 1950's and 60's. Some of us did grow up in small towns and do have a good idea of what it was like however. None of us can fully comprehend the social rules that controlled these two star-crossed lovers. They each did what they had to do to survive in the world they were given. It took the brilliance of Annie Proulx to find, dissect, comprend and give us the two men we all love so dearly, warts and all. There is no good or bad here, only what is.
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It is almost impossible for us living in the year 2006 too look back and fully understand what Ennis and Jack's world was like. I don't think any of us grew up in rural Wyoming in the 1950's and 60's. Some of us did grow up in small towns and do have a good idea of what it was like however. None of us can fully comprehend the social rules that controlled these two star-crossed lovers. They each did what they had to do to survive in the world they were given. It took the brilliance of Annie Proulx to find, dissect, comprend and give us the two men we all love so dearly, warts and all. There is no good or bad here, only what is.
Well said BBBoy. There is no praise high enough for what Annie Proulx gave us in Ennis and Jack - two characters who have become so real to us that we care enough to try to sort out their problems :)
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Very well said BBBOY, thank you!
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Very good points BBBoy but like Galadriel says "even the smallest person can change the course of the future"...and it is the thought of I can't make a difference that stops so many things from changing, and I think that the difference between Jack and Ennis, rural wyoming in the 60's or not, was that Jack made an effort to go after what he wanted even tho he probably knew it would get him in trouble.
And honestly...I don't think Ennis would have been braver had thay met now...I don't think it was merely the time thay were living in
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I can think of a few things :)
1) marrying Alma after falling in love with someone else
2)keeping Jack hooked and not giving him ANYthing of what he wants
3) going into ANOTHER relationship he isn't really committed to, Cassie, when he is still in love with someone else
4) leaving Jack that morning and not saying anything, actually he was going to sneak of without seeing Jack at all
5) not having the courage to ask Jack to wait until he had sent his daughters home ehn Jack drives all that way after Ennis' divorce
I like Ennis and I think alot of this isn't really his fault but I don't think these are very nice things to do...
Wow these posts pretty much cover it-lol. The above quote would be my answers in terms of why he is a "bad boy". And to add another- I don't like the scene in the movie where Jack says maybe Ennis should move to Texas and Ennis gets all sarcastic with him. I realize he is not supposed to be that in touch with his feelings nor articulate enough to express them but I still didn't like that. I don't think either of them as "bad". I think Ennis was a victim of what he was shown as a child and that definitely influenced him in his life but as you grow you can make up your mind to change- I think he used it as a crutch. Both were victims of society, unfortunately. We've all or most of us have had something bad or traumatic happen to us at some point and some of us succumb to that in terms of it defining us and others rise above that and refuse to let that define us. I'm not saying that given the time and the place that Ennis was "wrong" but I do feel he should have tried harder. He had a physical reaction when he parted with Jack after that first summer and he realized that he should have never let him out of his sights. But what does he do? Keeps letting Jack out of his sights. I'm not condoning leaving your family behind or anything but when you live a lie you can't ever give 100%. I feel for Ennis for not being able to come to terms with his childhood trauma.
I never liked reading reviews etc about how Jack was a "slut"or predator, he made Ennis "that way", etc. I don't like my Jack being bashed! >:(
Jack was true to himself probably so much so that it was to his detriment. Jack was by no means a saint but he was a human being. He kept reaching out and hoping for "maybe this time." Ennis did sacrifice for their meetings- the jobs etc; Jack was willing to sacrifice everything. I'm not pitting one against the other- as I've said before I love both characters, I'm just more Jack centric and I guess that's because I am definitely Jack.
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I couldn't agree with you more!
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Very good points BBBoy but like Galadriel says "even the smallest person can change the course of the future"...and it is the thought of I can't make a difference that stops so many things from changing, and I think that the difference between Jack and Ennis, rural wyoming in the 60's or not, was that Jack made an effort to go after what he wanted even tho he probably knew it would get him in trouble.
And honestly...I don't think Ennis would have been braver had thay met now...I don't think it was merely the time thay were living in
I think you are right Esme. Like Jack I got out of my suffocating small town as soon as I could and went out to meet the world I had dreamed of looking out of my window on the sometimes green sometimes snow covered park across the street from my house. There are times I think I am Ennis and times I think I am Jack. All I do know is that I couldn't waste a life being afraid. Guess that makes me a Jack. Go figure.
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Thanks Luv Jack Nasty, from another Jack centric.
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Am personally getting tired of hearing all the "bad" things that Jack did. Did not view Ennis as sympathetically as so many did.
Have some thoughts on this, but am under time constraints at the moment, so if you have some comments, go ahead.
jerasjr, this morning you post the above and off you go to work or wherever with no foundation, explanation or context. You title your thread, "Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"? But, then in the very first sentence of your post, you make the following statement: "Am personally getting tired of hearing all the "bad" things that Jack did."
So, the topic is about Ennis being a "bad boy" yet you are disturbed that people are saying Jack is the "bad boy." To say the least I found this very confusing. Then, later on this afternoon you come back and say,
See Carlos, think that this is what this thread is bringing out - exactly what you say, that they shouldn't be labeled as either bad or good - by their actions. But before this, there was a bit of Jack bashing in other threads... to chat to try to fathom why things happened or what either one did is one thing... to label what they did as bad or good is not necessary and neither is labeling the person as bad or good.
This gave me a little more perspective on your original post. You and I were, at the time you started this thread, engaged in a conversation about Jack's actions when he and Ennis first meet. So, I went back to that thread and reread everything in it. For the life of me I couldn't see where anyone said that what Jack did that morning was good or bad. Simple facts were stated. Jack was flirting with Ennis trying to test the waters. Nothing wrong with that. Didn't hear anyone say there was anything wrong with that. Didn't hear anyone label Jack as bad or good for his actions. Simple facts were being stated.
Then, I remembered another thread in which I stated that I wasn't too happy about the writers sending Jack off to Mexico. I said it made it look like the only reason Jack came to see Ennis after the divorce was for sex and when he was sent away by Ennis without it, Jack went off to Mexico where he did get it in the end. (A little double entendre humor there if I might be afforded the liberty. :D )
A good exchange of ideas took place in that thread and not once did I see anyone label Jack good or bad. If anything, I think most people took Jack's side in the discussion. I, couldn't comment one way or the other about what was being said because of my total lack of experience. While I found, and still find, some of the reasons given for Jack going to Mexico unimaginable, I didn't say he was either bad or good.
I still stick by my feeling that the writers made it appear that sex was what Jack needed and couldn't get and off he goes to Mexico. I do not like the scene.
Of course, it could be that I didn't like the scene because I am Ennis and Ennis' behavior was so outrageous that I just want the scene to go away. Ennis hurt Jack so bad that day. I couldn't believe Ennis could be in love with someone and treat him that way. Surely I could never do that...could I?
Anyway, I am not seeing what you are seeing jurasjr. I have never seen anyone label Jack or Ennis as being "bad." Except for the after divorce scene with Ennis. Did they both make some bad decisions, sure they did. But THEM, "bad"? No, I don't think so. And I know I wouldn't say Jack is "bad". I am Ennis and I am in love with Jack. And, like Ennis, will never have him. :'(
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But you didn't answer my question - why would they make this exception?
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But you didn't answer my question - why would they make this exception?
Who is that question to and what exception?
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mea culpa, mea culpa... sorry crossover post
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But you didn't answer my question - why would they make this exception?
because it makes for a better progression of thayr attraction...would be my guess :)
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I am not sure that I see Ennis as a bad boy, yeah he had an affair with Jack for about 20 years. He got married because that was what was done and society said men and women marry and have kids. He did help pay for child support for his kids. He was scared about being discovered that he was in love with Jack out of fear of being killed. His relationships with females didn't work and he was troubled. He wanted but wouldn't let himself believe he could have happiness and true love with Jack. I don't see him as being a bad boy though.
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.......
Then, I remembered another thread in which I stated that I wasn't too happy about the writers sending Jack off to Mexico. I said it made it look like the only reason Jack came to see Ennis after the divorce was for sex and when he was sent away by Ennis without it, Jack went off to Mexico where he did get it in the end. (A little double entendre humor there if I might be afforded the liberty. :D )
A good exchange of ideas took place in that thread and not once did I see anyone label Jack good or bad. If anything, I think most people took Jack's side in the discussion. I, couldn't comment one way or the other about what was being said because of my total lack of experience. While I found, and still find, some of the reasons given for Jack going to Mexico unimaginable, I didn't say he was either bad or good.
I still stick by my feeling that the writers made it appear that sex was what Jack needed and couldn't get and off he goes to Mexico. I do not like the scene.
Of course, it could be that I didn't like the scene because I am Ennis and Ennis' behavior was so outrageous that I just want the scene to go away. Ennis hurt Jack so bad that day. I couldn't believe Ennis could be in love with someone and treat him that way. Surely I could never do that...could I? .....
Hmm, I have to say I never once thought that Jack's taking off to Mexico was meant to imply that all he had gone to Ennis for was the sex. And since the heart of the story is their life-long love for each other, I really can't believe that was the intent of the scene either...
Watching Jack drive away and trying to recover from what had just happen it looks as if he went to Mexico entirely on impulse in reaction to his hurt, not out of a frustrated libido. I've always believed, too, that this was the first time he had looked to be with another man since he and Ennis had reunited.
When you're rejected by someone you love, even if you know they're sorry for hurting you, it's not uncommon to lash back by doing something that might be considered self-destructive. Having Ennis turn him away like that was not only hurtful, it was humiliating.
There were likely a jumble of reasons why Jack took off for Mexico right then. Picking up a stranger when he knows how possessive Ennis is may have been a way to hit back and say "to hell with you, then". ; he may have wanted to punish Ennis - and himself for needing Ennis so bad that he had left himself open to humiliation; he may have just been so damn broken at that point and desperate for the touch of another human being (one he could maybe pretend was Ennis) that he sought out what cold comfort he could.
Emotions are rarely a simple "one of" and everything gets mixed up together driving us to poor choices sometimes. There was probably a lot going on in his head we haven't considered yet, these few possibilities just came to me. And maybe the need for sex was in there too ...
But Mexico = simple sex ?? as Ennis said "no way!".
BTW - thinking about it now - by deciding to go to Mexico Jack was still being protective of Ennis. Jack obviously knew that Mexico was "the place", he could pick up someone without too much danger to himself, Ennis would never need to know since it's so far out his circle, and this encounter would be completely anonymous. There is absolutely no chance that Jack would start up a relationship with this one-night stand. Which is likely why Randall's propostion to him later (quietly) freaked him out - it was the complete opposite of the Mexico situation.
Just my thoughts on the whole divorce misunderstanding debacle .. since it kills me everytime. Like Patriot1 and most others who have posted in this thread I don't think there was anything inherently bad in either man. To use another Ennis-ism ..."they did the best they could "...
But as mentioned earlier, regardless of what we loving fans write here, I have seen in the media, in film reviews and articles, where some critics have cast Jack in a less then positive light. Most likely these people had only seen the film once, which I think we can agree isn't enough pick up on all the undercurrents going on. And of course, there are some people who just don't "get" it. So to these people, maybe the trip to Mexico might seem to be just about sex. We know better, of course, because we do "get" how much they loved each other, whatever their actions or words. :)
My 25 cents worth, since I appear to be incapable of giving only 2. lol
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Ennis is indeed at the very core of the tragic flaw that looms large in this movie.
That flaw is a fear transmuted to eternal regret.
All great dramatic figures in Literature and Art are disfigured by their tragic flaws.
This is why we love them so.
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Sunflower, in part what is being accomplished here is to examine our feelings for both. You do not find Ennis a bad boy...fine, but do you have negative feelings about Jack? Another person on the forum said to me that she had been on another forum where a thread was devoted to bashing Jack. And while in a gentler form here, it is on this forum too...
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Another person on the forum said to me that she had been on another forum where a thread was devoted to bashing Jack. And while in a gentler form here, it is on this forum too...
jerasjr, I shall never abide that THAT shall come to pass in this forum.
We are all lovers of BBM here. I love Jack as a character, and I am a diehard fan of Jake Gyllenhaal, and I am sure all other members will join me in saying that we love BBM in large part for the glory of the acting and the superb characterization.
In both their strengths and faults, we have come to love them so. We love them AS IS. No justification needed.
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True tpe, it should not come to pass, and thus an expression of concern from me. And several others who also feel that Jack at time is being given more negative attributes - slut and calculating are ones that come to immediate mind. You are right in saying that we love BBM in large part for the acting and the superb characterization.
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.......
Then, I remembered another thread in which I stated that I wasn't too happy about the writers sending Jack off to Mexico. I said it made it look like the only reason Jack came to see Ennis after the divorce was for sex and when he was sent away by Ennis without it, Jack went off to Mexico where he did get it in the end. (A little double entendre humor there if I might be afforded the liberty. :D )
A good exchange of ideas took place in that thread and not once did I see anyone label Jack good or bad. If anything, I think most people took Jack's side in the discussion. I, couldn't comment one way or the other about what was being said because of my total lack of experience. While I found, and still find, some of the reasons given for Jack going to Mexico unimaginable, I didn't say he was either bad or good.
I still stick by my feeling that the writers made it appear that sex was what Jack needed and couldn't get and off he goes to Mexico. I do not like the scene.
Of course, it could be that I didn't like the scene because I am Ennis and Ennis' behavior was so outrageous that I just want the scene to go away. Ennis hurt Jack so bad that day. I couldn't believe Ennis could be in love with someone and treat him that way. Surely I could never do that...could I? .....
Hmm, I have to say I never once thought that Jack's taking off to Mexico was meant to imply that all he had gone to Ennis for was the sex. And since the heart of the story is their life-long love for each other, I really can't believe that was the intent of the scene either...
Watching Jack drive away and trying to recover from what had just happen it looks as if he went to Mexico entirely on impulse in reaction to his hurt, not out of a frustrated libido. I've always believed, too, that this was the first time he had looked to be with another man since he and Ennis had reunited.
When you're rejected by someone you love, even if you know they're sorry for hurting you, it's not uncommon to lash back by doing something that might be considered self-destructive. Having Ennis turn him away like that was not only hurtful, it was humiliating.
There were likely a jumble of reasons why Jack took off for Mexico right then. Picking up a stranger when he knows how possessive Ennis is may have been a way to hit back and say "to hell with you, then". ; he may have wanted to punish Ennis - and himself for needing Ennis so bad that he had left himself open to humiliation; he may have just been so damn broken at that point and desperate for the touch of another human being (one he could maybe pretend was Ennis) that he sought out what cold comfort he could.
Emotions are rarely a simple "one of" and everything gets mixed up together driving us to poor choices sometimes. There was probably a lot going on in his head we haven't considered yet, these few possibilities just came to me. And maybe the need for sex was in there too ...
But Mexico = simple sex ?? as Ennis said "no way!".
BTW - thinking about it now - by deciding to go to Mexico Jack was still being protective of Ennis. Jack obviously knew that Mexico was "the place", he could pick up someone without too much danger to himself, Ennis would never need to know since it's so far out his circle, and this encounter would be completely anonymous. There is absolutely no chance that Jack would start up a relationship with this one-night stand. Which is likely why Randall's propostion to him later (quietly) freaked him out - it was the complete opposite of the Mexico situation.
Just my thoughts on the whole divorce misunderstanding debacle .. since it kills me everytime. Like Patriot1 and most others who have posted in this thread I don't think there was anything inherently bad in either man. To use another Ennis-ism ..."they did the best they could "...
But as mentioned earlier, regardless of what we loving fans write here, I have seen in the media, in film reviews and articles, where some critics have cast Jack in a less then positive light. Most likely these people had only seen the film once, which I think we can agree isn't enough pick up on all the undercurrents going on. And of course, there are some people who just don't "get" it. So to these people, maybe the trip to Mexico might seem to be just about sex. We know better, of course, because we do "get" how much they loved each other, whatever their actions or words. :)
My 25 cents worth, since I appear to be incapable of giving only 2. lol
You definitely "get" it. Excellent post.
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Another person on the forum said to me that she had been on another forum where a thread was devoted to bashing Jack. And while in a gentler form here, it is on this forum too...
jerasjr, I shall never abide that THAT shall come to pass in this forum.
We are all lovers of BBM here. I love Jack as a character, and I am a diehard fan of Jake Gyllenhaal, and I am sure all other members will join me in saying that we love BBM in large part for the glory of the acting and the superb characterization.
In both their strengths and faults, we have come to love them so. We love them AS IS. No justification needed.
Exactly.
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True tpe, it should not come to pass, and thus an expression of concern from me. And several others who also feel that Jack at time is being given more negative attributes - slut and calculating are ones that come to immediate mind. You are right in saying that we love BBM in large part for the acting and the superb characterization.
jerasjr, I think I know and share your concern.
But you know, I love both Jack and Ennis precisely for their faults. And I do think Ennis is made memorable by the very power of his flaws.
Think of Shakespeare's King Lear and Ben Jonson's Volpone. Their faults are hateful, and their foibles unmitigated. But we love and remember them all the same.
Such is the case with Jack and Ennis.
By their very faults, they are made immortal.
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tpe, we seem to have our own colloluquy this morn. Think we're coming around to this point...Explore motivations, explore feelings, surmise, infer but in all of that do not hasten to denigrate. A person may be drawn to one more than the other, fine. A person may think they understand one more than the other. A person may feel they are more like one the other. With all of that in mind, and considering their faults and foibles, their story together is unsurpassable.
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tpe, we seem to have our own colloluquy this morn. Think we're coming around to this point...Explore motivations, explore feelings, surmise, infer but in all of that do not hasten to denigrate. A person may be drawn to one more than the other, fine. A person may think they understand one more than the other. A person may feel they are more like one the other. With all of that in mind, and considering their faults and foibles, their story together is unsurpassable.
Good morning jurasjr. Just read every message on this forum with the word "slut" in it. Many weren't even talking about Jack or Ennis. Of the ones that were, only three bothered me at first.
I was about to write a message to one of the people who posted a message when I suddenly thought about how black people often call each other nigers. I thought about how often we, gay people, call each other slut, queer, queen, etc. and how that is all said in fun often. Looking at those few messages in that light, I didn't see any messages where I got the definite impression anyone here was seriously calling Jack a slut or putting him down in any way.
I would be interested in knowing about this "other" forum though if you want to PM me. I will go there to defend my lover.
No, jueasjr, there is no chance I will stay there. ;D
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tpe, we seem to have our own colloluquy this morn. Think we're coming around to this point...Explore motivations, explore feelings, surmise, infer but in all of that do not hasten to denigrate. A person may be drawn to one more than the other, fine. A person may think they understand one more than the other. A person may feel they are more like one the other. With all of that in mind, and considering their faults and foibles, their story together is unsurpassable.
Jer I support you 100% on this. All of the characters in BBM were created to behave with a very specific purpose in mind and all succeeded so well which is why the story DOES work so well In our way we grow to love Jack, Ennis, Alma, Lureen. Alma Jr., Cassie, LaShawn, Randall, Mrs Twist and yes maybe we can even appreciate (probably not like) where Mr. Twist might be coming from. But like you I cannot stand by and see Jack labeled as a slut anymore than I can see Ennis labeled as uncaring or selfish. They both did what they had to do to make it work.
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I certainly don't think Jack was a s*** (sorry, I cannot bear to write this word in connection with him), and Ennis indeed suffered as much internally, if not externally.
They were human. More human perhaps than many people are wont to admit...
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I certainly don't think Jack was a s*** (sorry, I cannot bear to write this word in connection with him), and Ennis indeed suffered as much internally, if not externally.
They were human. More human perhaps than many people are wont to admit...
agreed
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I am a slut, or was before I had my son...I've no problem calling Jack that cause it isn't a bad word, to me it means someone that goes after the man thay want at that time :)
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I am a slut, or was before I had my son...I've no problem calling Jack that cause it isn't a bad word, to me it means someone that goes after the man thay want at that time :)
I see your point. Following wherever one's desire leads you is not always a bad thing.
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I am a slut, or was before I had my son...I've no problem calling Jack that cause it isn't a bad word, to me it means someone that goes after the man thay want at that time :)
problem is I don't think slut means the same to everyone..what you describe to me isn't a slut
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I am a slut, or was before I had my son...I've no problem calling Jack that cause it isn't a bad word, to me it means someone that goes after the man thay want at that time :)
problem is I don't slut means the same to everyone
No it don't, and some forums and papers and stuff call Jack that because he went after more than one man and mean it in a negative way, but like someone sayd, Blacks can call eacother niggers, homosexuals can call eachother queers and queens, so us sluts can definatly call someone else a slut :)
I think the reason jack is called that is just because he is a man, and there are so many negative words for women that mean someone that sleeps around, and if a man does he is not looked down on, there are not that many, if any, words for that. So those that DON'T like Brokeback because of the gay thing call Jack a slut.
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I am a slut, or was before I had my son...I've no problem calling Jack that cause it isn't a bad word, to me it means someone that goes after the man thay want at that time :)
problem is I don't slut means the same to everyone
No it don't, and some forums and papers and stuff call Jack that because he went after more than one man and mean it in a negative way, but like someone sayd, Blacks can call eacother niggers, homosexuals can call eachother queers and queens, so us sluts can definatly call someone else a slut :)
I think the reason jack is called that is just because he is a man, and there are so many negative words for women that mean someone that sleeps around, and if a man does he is not looked down on, there are not that many, if any, words for that. So those that DON'T like Brokeback because of the gay thing call Jack a slut.
makes sense ....I just don't like it.....but maybe because someone called me one on a forum here
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problem is I don't slut means the same to everyone
I think the reason jack is called that is just because he is a man, and there are so many negative words for women that mean someone that sleeps around, and if a man does he is not looked down on, there are not that many, if any, words for that. So those that DON'T like Brokeback because of the gay thing call Jack a slut.
makes sense ....I just don't like it.....but maybe because someone called me one on a forum here
Who would dare call you that??? Seems way out of line to me .... >:(
I have to agree, I don't like that word either. Too many negative connotations, when there are other ways of saying the same thing without giving people the chance to make the worst possible translation. Same thing goes with calling Jack a predator, or opportunist.
Like maybe we could say ... that Jack had a healthy libido?? Or, that he was very highly sexed?? Or that he loved loving?? Or maybe he was just too darn adorable to be without companionship for long, since both women and men were likely hitting on him .. :) :)
Besides ... we don't know that he was being outrageously active between visits with Ennis. Heck, who could make it on a couple of "conjugals" once or twice a year, high altitude or otherwise?? ;) With Ennis it was both a physical and emotional connection, so those times sustained Jack's soul, not just his body, IMO.
hummmm ... what was the question?? Sorry if I got OT in my defensive of Jack. :-\ He was no Sl*t!
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problem is I don't slut means the same to everyone
I think the reason jack is called that is just because he is a man, and there are so many negative words for women that mean someone that sleeps around, and if a man does he is not looked down on, there are not that many, if any, words for that. So those that DON'T like Brokeback because of the gay thing call Jack a slut.
makes sense ....I just don't like it.....but maybe because someone called me one on a forum here
Who would dare call you that??? Seems way out of line to me .... >:(
I have to agree, I don't like that word either. Too many negative connotations, when there are other ways of saying the same thing without giving people the chance to make the worst possible translation. Same thing goes with calling Jack a predator, or opportunist.
Like maybe we could say ... that Jack had a healthy libido?? Or, that he was very highly sexed?? Or that he loved loving?? Or maybe he was just too darn adorable to be without companionship for long, since both women and men were likely hitting on him .. :) :)
Besides ... we don't know that he was being outrageously active between visits with Ennis. Heck, who could make it on a couple of "conjugals" once or twice a year, high altitude or otherwise?? ;) With Ennis it was both a physical and emotional connection, so those times sustained Jack's soul, not just his body, IMO.
hummmm ... what was the question?? Sorry if I got OT in my defensive of Jack. :-\ He was no Sl*t!
Thanks Red...you said it well,,highly sexed is a great way to say it!!!!
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Hey, Bubba, I'd defend you the same way if anyone got on your case again.. Let me at'em!
No Sl*ts here (in the negative tranlation of the word since, Esme, you say you're okay with it by your definition), just highly sexed individuals, Jack Twist included. :)
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For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing?? Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey. I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time. Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself?? :-\ I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell. :P
I must admit to being as baffled as you on this point. ??? Why wouldn't he move closer? I think that if Jack had moved back things would have eventually worked out the way they both wanted and pined for. Someone mentioned that Jack did not want to give up his comfortale life but I do not see that as he said, "Here I am" in the divorce scene. Damn them both for being so stubborn.
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tpe, we seem to have our own colloluquy this morn. Think we're coming around to this point...Explore motivations, explore feelings, surmise, infer but in all of that do not hasten to denigrate. A person may be drawn to one more than the other, fine. A person may think they understand one more than the other. A person may feel they are more like one the other. With all of that in mind, and considering their faults and foibles, their story together is unsurpassable.
Jer I support you 100% on this. All of the characters in BBM were created to behave with a very specific purpose in mind and all succeeded so well which is why the story DOES work so well In our way we grow to love Jack, Ennis, Alma, Lureen. Alma Jr., Cassie, LaShawn, Randall, Mrs Twist and yes maybe we can even appreciate (probably not like) where Mr. Twist might be coming from. But like you I cannot stand by and see Jack labeled as a slut anymore than I can see Ennis labeled as uncaring or selfish. They both did what they had to do to make it work.
Maybe some of these people who label Jack unflatteringly are mistaking movie/Jack for story/Jack. In the story, Jack is much more...I'm not sure how to put this...materialistic and opportunistic? To me the movie shines a much more "flattering" light on Jack, than the story does.
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For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing?? Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey. I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time. Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself?? :-\ I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell. :P
I must admit to being as baffled as you on this point. ??? Why wouldn't he move closer? I think that if Jack had moved back things would have eventually worked out the way they both wanted and pined for. Someone mentioned that Jack did not want to give up his comfortale life but I do not see that as he said, "Here I am" in the divorce scene. Damn them both for being so stubborn.
Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
:(
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For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing?? Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey. I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time. Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself?? :-\ I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell. :P
I must admit to being as baffled as you on this point. ??? Why wouldn't he move closer? I think that if Jack had moved back things would have eventually worked out the way they both wanted and pined for. Someone mentioned that Jack did not want to give up his comfortale life but I do not see that as he said, "Here I am" in the divorce scene. Damn them both for being so stubborn.
Hey Mactwck - I agree, I don't think it would just be about creature comforts either. It would be worthwhile exploring Jack deeper to try to eplain this, don't you think? Nothing driving either man was ever that simple, that I could see.
I wonder if part of it had to do with him being afraid he would scare Ennis off completely if they were no longer some tangible barrier keeping them apart? Ennis seems to avoid confrontation unless pushed, IMO, and at that point his reactions are less than reasonable, to say the least. See how Ennis over-reacted to Jack suggesting that HE move closer to Jack? Both men were walking a very fine line keeping their relationship together, guess they were able to figure it out for the better part of 20 years without ever having to speak of it, pretty impressive ...
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Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
:(
Hey FlwrChild -
So many reasons aren't there, always, to NOT do something. You're definitely pointed out some good ones.
Yes, Ennis's fear certainly was keeping them apart, just thought that maybe, since Jack was in a miserable marriage anyway, he could have left and at least moved closer to Ennis, or given Ennis a safe place to let go of or deal with his fear, instead of holding back waiting for Ennis to say "okay, leave your wife now, I'm ready"...
As I said, I'm of two minds on the issue, so appreciate the feedback ..
Just a "might have been" that had me wondering, I guess.
No doubt John Twist seems like a miserable person, but the ranch was there for the taking, wouldn't require much capital for Ennis and Jack to set up, so it seems like it might have been a place to start ..
See - there it is again ... "might have been"...
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I'll weigh in here on this high-altitude, high-quality thread.
Faulting Jack:
Too focused on his own needs, with not enough empathy for Ennis. Not enough concern for Ennis's kids.
Faulting Ennis:
Friend, lover, relative, or even acquaintance, it is very bad form to just turn someone away who has driven from Texas to Wyoming. If any of you have ever driven that, it is a long, hard, drive. Ennis needed a slap up the side of the head for pushing Jack away at that point. He obviously should have said, "Go up to Lightning Flat for the weekend; I'll see you Monday at ....."
I think the idea is intriguing that Jack could move to LF and set up shop there and then he and Ennis could see each other more often. Problems with this idea: someone said that John Twist "made Jack feel small." Well, more than that, he made Jack feel.... well, pissed. Not pissed off, pissed on. Jack could NOT live in that house with that man.
Jack could, theoretically, have built a little cottage on the family property. Room for Ennis to come and stay sometime if he wanted.
HOWEVER.
Jack has some of the same reasons Ennis has to stay put. I for one admire Ennis for not forsaking his children to follow his dream. Jack also had a child, and he was very involved in Bobby's upbringing. I think the children are a big part of the motivations of each character that sometimes gets overlooked. We all know that Ennis refused to move to Texas because of the kids. Jack also is tied to Texas because of his kid. (Even though he sort of forgets about Ennis's kids at one point. Oh well.)
The reason the story is so heartbreaking is because there is no good solution to the problems that exist. Like tpe (who definitely needs to start a writing career) has said, we love Ennis and Jack partly *because* of their flaws, as in the great tragedies. Also as in the great tragedies (especially Greek) there is a sense that Fate will not allow certain things to happen. There is just no getting around it.
Whatever scenario we dream up, for THOSE GUYS, in THAT TIME, there was just no way out. "You can't fix it." "There ain't never enough." "No way."
How they both endure, exist, grow, stretch, resist, cry out under such circumstances is the essence of the story.
:-\ :-\
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The reason the story is so heartbreaking is because there is no good solution to the problems that exist.
How they both endure, exist, grow, stretch, resist, cry out under such circumstances is the essence of the story.
My heart is wedged between these two lines. They sum up the root of all their imperfections. The last line especially so. It lays bare the foundation on which this entire story is built.
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The reason the story is so heartbreaking is because there is no good solution to the problems that exist.
How they both endure, exist, grow, stretch, resist, cry out under such circumstances is the essence of the story.
My heart is wedged between these two lines. They sum up the root of all their imperfections. The last line especially so. It lays bare the foundation on which this entire story is built.
Beautiful. thank you tpe and Edgar for more to think on ... :)
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Hmm, I have to say I never once thought that Jack's taking off to Mexico was meant to imply that all he had gone to Ennis for was the sex. And since the heart of the story is their life-long love for each other, I really can't believe that was the intent of the scene either...
Watching Jack drive away and trying to recover from what had just happen it looks as if he went to Mexico entirely on impulse in reaction to his hurt, not out of a frustrated libido. I've always believed, too, that this was the first time he had looked to be with another man since he and Ennis had reunited.
When you're rejected by someone you love, even if you know they're sorry for hurting you, it's not uncommon to lash back by doing something that might be considered self-destructive. Having Ennis turn him away like that was not only hurtful, it was humiliating.
There were likely a jumble of reasons why Jack took off for Mexico right then. Picking up a stranger when he knows how possessive Ennis is may have been a way to hit back and say "to hell with you, then". ; he may have wanted to punish Ennis - and himself for needing Ennis so bad that he had left himself open to humiliation; he may have just been so damn broken at that point and desperate for the touch of another human being (one he could maybe pretend was Ennis) that he sought out what cold comfort he could.
Emotions are rarely a simple "one of" and everything gets mixed up together driving us to poor choices sometimes. There was probably a lot going on in his head we haven't considered yet, these few possibilities just came to me. And maybe the need for sex was in there too ...
But Mexico = simple sex ?? as Ennis said "no way!".
BTW - thinking about it now - by deciding to go to Mexico Jack was still being protective of Ennis. Jack obviously knew that Mexico was "the place", he could pick up someone without too much danger to himself, Ennis would never need to know since it's so far out his circle, and this encounter would be completely anonymous. There is absolutely no chance that Jack would start up a relationship with this one-night stand. Which is likely why Randall's propostion to him later (quietly) freaked him out - it was the complete opposite of the Mexico situation.
Just my thoughts on the whole divorce misunderstanding debacle .. since it kills me everytime. Like Patriot1 and most others who have posted in this thread I don't think there was anything inherently bad in either man. To use another Ennis-ism ..."they did the best they could "...
But as mentioned earlier, regardless of what we loving fans write here, I have seen in the media, in film reviews and articles, where some critics have cast Jack in a less then positive light. Most likely these people had only seen the film once, which I think we can agree isn't enough pick up on all the undercurrents going on. And of course, there are some people who just don't "get" it. So to these people, maybe the trip to Mexico might seem to be just about sex. We know better, of course, because we do "get" how much they loved each other, whatever their actions or words. :)
My 25 cents worth, since I appear to be incapable of giving only 2. lol
Terrific post Miss.Red. I think you have made some very sharp observations about Jack and his trip to Mexico. I really can't add anything to it.
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Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
:(
Hey FlwrChild -
So many reasons aren't there, always, to NOT do something. You're definitely pointed out some good ones.
Yes, Ennis's fear certainly was keeping them apart, just thought that maybe, since Jack was in a miserable marriage anyway, he could have left and at least moved closer to Ennis, or given Ennis a safe place to let go of or deal with his fear, instead of holding back waiting for Ennis to say "okay, leave your wife now, I'm ready"...
As I said, I'm of two minds on the issue, so appreciate the feedback ..
Just a "might have been" that had me wondering, I guess.
No doubt John Twist seems like a miserable person, but the ranch was there for the taking, wouldn't require much capital for Ennis and Jack to set up, so it seems like it might have been a place to start ..
See - there it is again ... "might have been"...
MississaugaRed, you make more good points! And I too spend a lot of time thinking about "might have beens". In regard to Jack (and Ennis) working the ranch at Lightning Flat, I have to admit one thing I've always thought: Mr. Twist was a miserable, small man with a pretty nasty view of the world, but I always got the impression his real resentment toward Jack had nothing to do with sexual orientation, et al. I think he was pissed that Jack never came to work the ranch for him. I bet he wouldn't care if Jack brought in a tribe of cannibals as long as they did all the work and made it profitable! Though I'm sure he still would have been a son-of-a-B to Jack anyway. And as I reread my post here, I was a little appalled at how insistant it sounded. I hope it didn't come off as hostile or too adamant - it definitely was not intended that way.
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makes sense ....I just don't like it.....but maybe because someone called me one on a forum here
LOL!!! Bubba dear, your memory is getting as bad as mine is. It was you who referred to yourself that way. LOL!
Love this spot... it shows that we more senior ones are lively, funny, and with libidos definitely intact ;). We are a pack to be reckoned with...it has been a bright spot to come here and see everyone haggling over Jack or Ennis or the extra, all of us with perfectly valid reasons, of course. None as good as mine of course. Look forward to hearing from you all again and again.
My DOB is 11/10/1950//placing me right in the middle of the SCORPIO sign...also born on this date: Richard Burton
I win the slut contest..hands down....LOL
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For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing?? Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey. I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time. Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself?? :-\ I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell. :P
I must admit to being as baffled as you on this point. ??? Why wouldn't he move closer? I think that if Jack had moved back things would have eventually worked out the way they both wanted and pined for. Someone mentioned that Jack did not want to give up his comfortale life but I do not see that as he said, "Here I am" in the divorce scene. Damn them both for being so stubborn.
Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
:(
I was doing some thinking today about Jack and Mexico and then I saw a question I always had. I had always wondered why Jack didn't move back to Wyoming to be closer to Ennis. FlwrChild you said a lot of my thoughts on that. I think his marriage to Lureen was not necessarily horrible but it was tolerable. I think Jack needed to have someone in his life and we all know the someone he wanted most was Ennis. He took a big chance in driving up to Wyoming after finding out about Ennis' divorce and he got his airplane shot out of the sky big time. Why is he going to move there- Ennis' reaction to the truck in the distance was very eye opening to Jack, almost a defining moment. IMO that would have been the perfect time for Ennis to suggest he stay- maybe not at Ennis' place but get a room in town or something. He had no trouble introducing his "fishing buddy" to his wife so what was the big deal in hanging out with an old friend in public? Jack had out of state plates- would that have been so bad to put up a friend for a few nights? Didn't people have distant relatives that came to visit them?
The divorce scene is tough to take. I'm sure Jack played out various scenarios in his mind during his 14 hour ride to Wyoming. I'm pretty certain that those scenarios were happy ones- I don't think he would have taken the drive if he thought he would be turned away. Now that is not Ennis' fault or doing- Jack did that of his own free will. I don't believe for a second that Jack rode all that way for sex. I think he went there so that he and Ennis could work on their "game plan" in planning the future. I could just imagine that 14 hour ride back to Texas. How devastated he must have been to be turned down and away. I agree that he went to Mexico out of frustration. i don't think it was retaliation or him just being a "slut". He was deeply wounded and where was he going to go? To his parents and have Papa Twist kicking him while he's down? Back home to Lureen? I think he went there to seek out comfort- albeit it was in the form of sex but he needed some comfort. IMO he was not proud of being there, he looked disgusted with himself like this is what I'm reduced to, these are the lengths I have to go to to get what I need. I think the ride to Wyoming was filled with happiness and hope. On the ride back he had a LOT of time to replay years of their relationship- and when you get wounded like that things you should have seen or realized before become oh so clear now.
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makes sense ....I just don't like it.....but maybe because someone called me one on a forum here
LOL!!! Bubba dear, your memory is getting as bad as mine is. It was you who referred to yourself that way. LOL!
Love this spot... it shows that we more senior ones are lively, funny, and with libidos definitely intact ;). We are a pack to be reckoned with...it has been a bright spot to come here and see everyone haggling over Jack or Ennis or the extra, all of us with perfectly valid reasons, of course. None as good as mine of course. Look forward to hearing from you all again and again.
My DOB is 11/10/1950//placing me right in the middle of the SCORPIO sign...also born on this date: Richard Burton
I win the slut contest..hands down....LOL
LMAO!
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Why would he?! Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't going to come build a life with Jack. He didn't hesitate because they didn't have a place set up to go to - he hesitated because he was fundamentally incapable of letting go of his own fear and denial. Jack was right there in front of him ready to leave everything in his life behind to build a new life with Ennis. But he finally got the message that it wasn't Ennis' sense of obligation to his marriage that had been keeping them apart - it was Ennis himself. There would be no good reason to go to Lightning Flat - his father was a horrible person who always made him feel small. And he did at least have a comfortable life in Texas, not to mention a son that he loved. He loved Ennis more and would have left Bobby behind if Ennis said yes, but not for any other reason. And I don't think it would have worked out. Poor Ennis just didn't have it in him to take that kind of chance.
:(
I was doing some thinking today about Jack and Mexico and then I saw a question I always had. I had always wondered why Jack didn't move back to Wyoming to be closer to Ennis. FlwrChild you said a lot of my thoughts on that. I think his marriage to Lureen was not necessarily horrible but it was tolerable. I think Jack needed to have someone in his life and we all know the someone he wanted most was Ennis. He took a big chance in driving up to Wyoming after finding out about Ennis' divorce and he got his airplane shot out of the sky big time. Why is he going to move there- Ennis' reaction to the truck in the distance was very eye opening to Jack, almost a defining moment. IMO that would have been the perfect time for Ennis to suggest he stay- maybe not at Ennis' place but get a room in town or something. He had no trouble introducing his "fishing buddy" to his wife so what was the big deal in hanging out with an old friend in public? Jack had out of state plates- would that have been so bad to put up a friend for a few nights? Didn't people have distant relatives that came to visit them?
The divorce scene is tough to take. I'm sure Jack played out various scenarios in his mind during his 14 hour ride to Wyoming. I'm pretty certain that those scenarios were happy ones- I don't think he would have taken the drive if he thought he would be turned away. Now that is not Ennis' fault or doing- Jack did that of his own free will. I don't believe for a second that Jack rode all that way for sex. I think he went there so that he and Ennis could work on their "game plan" in planning the future. I could just imagine that 14 hour ride back to Texas. How devastated he must have been to be turned down and away. I agree that he went to Mexico out of frustration. i don't think it was retaliation or him just being a "slut". He was deeply wounded and where was he going to go? To his parents and have Papa Twist kicking him while he's down? Back home to Lureen? I think he went there to seek out comfort- albeit it was in the form of sex but he needed some comfort. IMO he was not proud of being there, he looked disgusted with himself like this is what I'm reduced to, these are the lengths I have to go to to get what I need. I think the ride to Wyoming was filled with happiness and hope. On the ride back he had a LOT of time to replay years of their relationship- and when you get wounded like that things you should have seen or realized before become oh so clear now.
I don't want to sound like a sexist here but men and women do react differently under the same conditions. Jack went to Mexico because he didn't know what else to do after the ultimate rejection. He didn't want sex, he wanted love and I think men equate the 2 as the same. It's our weakness. Brains in our pants and all that. IMHO and I've had a little experience with men.
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Jack driving all the way to Wyoming for sex? That's just silly.
Here's the deal. Ennis had written a postcard to Jack. Unscheduled. You can imagine how happy Jack was every time he got a postcard from Ennis. ((Btw--in the story, it's a *phone call* from Ennis. That was really something special.) The postcard said he was divorced.
Why did Ennis send this card?
He was reaching out to Jack. He wanted some emotional support, some sympathy--maybe he really was saying, in spite of himself, maybe now we can get together more often.
But then Ennis retreats back into the scared, macho Ennis when Jack shows up to call his bet.
I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.
Okay, so Jack is driving away. Maybe he went up to see Mom, but maybe he couldn't handle that at this time; and maybe his parents would think it strange for him to show up unannounced. So he has no choice but the head south.
He has lots of time to think on the way. And--whatever story he told Lureen when he left--he's not expected back home immediately. So....he's got some time to kill, and he kills it in Mexico.
Not very honorable, but it happens. He got a minimal amount of comfort from his actions, sort of like what Paul Simon says in his great song, "The Boxer"
"Asking only workman's wages I come looking for a job, but I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores on 7th avenue.
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there."
Some comfort. That's all.
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Jack driving all the way to Wyoming for sex? That's just silly.
Here's the deal. Ennis had written a postcard to Jack. Unscheduled. You can imagine how happy Jack was every time he got a postcard from Ennis. ((Btw--in the story, it's a *phone call* from Ennis. That was really something special.) The postcard said he was divorced.
Why did Ennis send this card?
He was reaching out to Jack. He wanted some emotional support, some sympathy--maybe he really was saying, in spite of himself, maybe now we can get together more often.
But then Ennis retreats back into the scared, macho Ennis when Jack shows up to call his bet.
I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.
Okay, so Jack is driving away. Maybe he went up to see Mom, but maybe he couldn't handle that at this time; and maybe his parents would think it strange for him to show up unannounced. So he has no choice but the head south.
He has lots of time to think on the way. And--whatever story he told Lureen when he left--he's not expected back home immediately. So....he's got some time to kill, and he kills it in Mexico.
Not very honorable, but it happens. He got a minimal amount of comfort from his actions, sort of like what Paul Simon says in his great song, "The Boxer"
"Asking only workman's wages I come looking for a job, but I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores on 7th avenue.
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there."
Some comfort. That's all.
edgar, you are wise.
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I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.
I agree...
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Jack driving all the way to Wyoming for sex? That's just silly.
Here's the deal. Ennis had written a postcard to Jack. Unscheduled. You can imagine how happy Jack was every time he got a postcard from Ennis. ((Btw--in the story, it's a *phone call* from Ennis. That was really something special.) The postcard said he was divorced.
Why did Ennis send this card?
He was reaching out to Jack. He wanted some emotional support, some sympathy--maybe he really was saying, in spite of himself, maybe now we can get together more often.
But then Ennis retreats back into the scared, macho Ennis when Jack shows up to call his bet.
Maybe Ennis was expecting Jack to reply by postcard to arrange a date to get together (in the very near future)? Presumably that's how things worked normally as it couldn't just be one of them sending a card and assuming the other would make it. Maybe he didn't think for a second that Jack would be that impulsive...
I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.
Yup, not even I can defend Ennis here. He should have done what someone above suggested and told Jack to hang out in Lightning Flat till the weekend was over and then they could be together for a night or two.
Okay, so Jack is driving away. Maybe he went up to see Mom, but maybe he couldn't handle that at this time; and maybe his parents would think it strange for him to show up unannounced. So he has no choice but the head south.
He has lots of time to think on the way. And--whatever story he told Lureen when he left--he's not expected back home immediately. So....he's got some time to kill, and he kills it in Mexico.
Not very honorable, but it happens. He got a minimal amount of comfort from his actions, sort of like what Paul Simon says in his great song, "The Boxer"
"Asking only workman's wages I come looking for a job, but I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores on 7th avenue.
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there."
Some comfort. That's all.
I like that - some comfort, that's all. That's how I see it too.
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MississaugaRed, you make more good points! And I too spend a lot of time thinking about "might have beens". In regard to Jack (and Ennis) working the ranch at Lightning Flat, I have to admit one thing I've always thought: Mr. Twist was a miserable, small man with a pretty nasty view of the world, but I always got the impression his real resentment toward Jack had nothing to do with sexual orientation, et al. I think he was pissed that Jack never came to work the ranch for him. I bet he wouldn't care if Jack brought in a tribe of cannibals ;D ;D ;D as long as they did all the work and made it profitable! Though I'm sure he still would have been a son-of-a-B to Jack anyway. And as I reread my post here, I was a little appalled at how insistant it sounded. I hope it didn't come off as hostile or too adamant - it definitely was not intended that way.
FlwChild, you make us think and present valid arguments for your points, good things both, so never worry that you were coming across as being hostile and adamant is a good thing when you passionately believe in something, so no worries. Plus ... you just made me LOL big time with that line about the cannibals - what a visual! ;D Hysterical!
I can agree with your take on John Twist here too, for the most part. If he had an inkling of Jack's orientation, it wouldn't have been a welcome bit of news, but IMO not being able to get Jack to do what he wanted him to do that was really sticking in his craw. He did come across as one controlling SOB, didn't he? His poor wife certainly seemed cowed. I give huge kudos to Jack for staying out from under his daddy's thumb and still being able to maintain some kind of a relationship with his parents at the same time. Our Jack was talented at walking fine lines in all his relationships, it seems.
If we can allow for a second that the point Jerasjr is trying to make here is maybe less about Ennis being "bad" and more about the anti-bashing of Jack, then I have to admit I started feeling guilty for the times I may have come across as bashing Ennis. I get mad enough sometimes to smack him (apparently I'm not the only one), mostly each time he turns down every overture Jack makes for them to make a life together. Yes, I understand his reasons and feel for him, but it's exasperating nonetheless. So to play devil's advocate, I thought it only fair to ask by Jack himself didn't make the move closer to Ennis.
So, exploring that scenario by suggesting LF as a possibly ranching site for Jack & Ennis was mostly based on the fact that it was a family holding, no big financial outlay needed, looked pretty isolated so few prying eyes, and still in Wyoming so Ennis could visit his girls regularly. As everyone has pointed out, though, none of that would have meant a hill of beans if Jack and his father couldn't find a way to get along. Or unless Ennis could let go of his fear of exposure long enough to admit he had a once in a lifetime love with another man. Some excellent posts in response here covering all points, great reading.
Edgar, BBboy, LuvJackNasty, NoReins, you have all made excellent observations here which help balance those actions we might deem hurtful, self-destructive, heartbreaking, fearful, etc., with an understanding of the motivations behind them. Including BBboy's comment that men and women don't always react in the same way, especially regarding love and sex. :)
And as Edgar said earlier and as has been acknowledged many times in this forum, the boys did the best they could for who they were, where they were, when they were. And love that quote from "the Boxer'. Seeking comfort in an uncomfortable world, that could describe many of the choices Jack (and Ennis?) make during their lives. From wives, to jobs, to staying in a familiar setting rather than risking the unknown.
The suggestion, however, that maybe Jack's impulsive visit to Ennis after his divorce might have forestalled a future invitation from Ennis to come up and talk about their options, must admit I can't really see ...
Ennis might be conflicted and afraid, but he certainly had no problem laying out the boundaries on their relationship when they first reunited. And I don't think he would have played games with Jack, he loved him too much. Can't see him being scared off that easily either by Jack's unexpected appearance IF he was seriously considering getting together with him permanently. Ennis wasn't that delicate a flower (low startle point??) that this would make him back off if he'd already made up his mind about something, IMO. I doubt it had even occurred to Ennis that this was finally his chance to make a change. How can Jack be responsible here for what Ennis doesn't say or do?? :-\
See, Jerasjr .. worms everywhere! ;)
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I said it before, but Ennis needs to be slapped up the side of the head for that stiff refusal. That was raw.
I agree...
Couldn't agree with you more...cruelest thing Ennis did to Jack.......broke my heart
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Jack went to Mexico because he didn't know what else to do after the ultimate rejection. He didn't want sex, he wanted love .....
Exactly!
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Quoted from MississaugaRed earlier today:
"Our Jack was talented at walking fine lines in all his relationships, it seems."
He sure was. And I've learned that's not an easy talent to cultivate.
Also, I love your use of "Our Jack". They really are our boys, aren't they?
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Also, I love your use of "Our Jack". They really are our boys, aren't they?
THay are :) and that is why we love them, good and or bad, thay are not black and white card board cut outs, thay are flawed and real
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Also, I love your use of "Our Jack". They really are our boys, aren't they?
THay are :) and that is why we love them, good and or bad, thay are not black and white card board cut outs, thay are flawed and real
We can all share "Our Jack" but you must all promise handle him with care and return him safely when done. No bashing. :) (as if WE would ..ha!)
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Also, I love your use of "Our Jack". They really are our boys, aren't they?
THay are :) and that is why we love them, good and or bad, thay are not black and white card board cut outs, thay are flawed and real
We can all share "Our Jack" but you must all promise handle him with care and return him safely when done. No bashing. :) (as if WE would ..ha!)
Absolutely NO bashing....
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Featherlight "bashing" in confined quarters of a private bed on the other hand....
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Featherlight "bashing" in confined quarters of a private bed on the other hand....
see above re: handle with care and RETURN safely when done .... :)
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Not very honorable, but it happens. He got a minimal amount of comfort from his actions, sort of like what Paul Simon says in his great song, "The Boxer"
"Asking only workman's wages I come looking for a job, but I get no offers
Just a come-on from the whores on 7th avenue.
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there."
Some comfort. That's all.
This is an excellent way to describe what he did.
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MississaugaRed, you make more good points! And I too spend a lot of time thinking about "might have beens". In regard to Jack (and Ennis) working the ranch at Lightning Flat, I have to admit one thing I've always thought: Mr. Twist was a miserable, small man with a pretty nasty view of the world, but I always got the impression his real resentment toward Jack had nothing to do with sexual orientation, et al. I think he was pissed that Jack never came to work the ranch for him. I bet he wouldn't care if Jack brought in a tribe of cannibals ;D ;D ;D as long as they did all the work and made it profitable! Though I'm sure he still would have been a son-of-a-B to Jack anyway. And as I reread my post here, I was a little appalled at how insistant it sounded. I hope it didn't come off as hostile or too adamant - it definitely was not intended that way.
FlwChild, you make us think and present valid arguments for your points, good things both, so never worry that you were coming across as being hostile and adamant is a good thing when you passionately believe in something, so no worries. Plus ... you just made me LOL big time with that line about the cannibals - what a visual! ;D Hysterical!
I can agree with your take on John Twist here too, for the most part. If he had an inkling of Jack's orientation, it wouldn't have been a welcome bit of news, but IMO not being able to get Jack to do what he wanted him to do that was really sticking in his craw. He did come across as one controlling SOB, didn't he? His poor wife certainly seemed cowed. I give huge kudos to Jack for staying out from under his daddy's thumb and still being able to maintain some kind of a relationship with his parents at the same time. Our Jack was talented at walking fine lines in all his relationships, it seems.
If we can allow for a second that the point Jerasjr is trying to make here is maybe less about Ennis being "bad" and more about the anti-bashing of Jack, then I have to admit I started feeling guilty for the times I may have come across as bashing Ennis. I get mad enough sometimes to smack him (apparently I'm not the only one), mostly each time he turns down every overture Jack makes for them to make a life together. Yes, I understand his reasons and feel for him, but it's exasperating nonetheless. So to play devil's advocate, I thought it only fair to ask by Jack himself didn't make the move closer to Ennis.
So, exploring that scenario by suggesting LF as a possibly ranching site for Jack & Ennis was mostly based on the fact that it was a family holding, no big financial outlay needed, looked pretty isolated so few prying eyes, and still in Wyoming so Ennis could visit his girls regularly. As everyone has pointed out, though, none of that would have meant a hill of beans if Jack and his father couldn't find a way to get along. Or unless Ennis could let go of his fear of exposure long enough to admit he had a once in a lifetime love with another man. Some excellent posts in response here covering all points, great reading.
Edgar, BBboy, LuvJackNasty, NoReins, you have all made excellent observations here which help balance those actions we might deem hurtful, self-destructive, heartbreaking, fearful, etc., with an understanding of the motivations behind them. Including BBboy's comment that men and women don't always react in the same way, especially regarding love and sex. :)
And as Edgar said earlier and as has been acknowledged many times in this forum, the boys did the best they could for who they were, where they were, when they were. And love that quote from "the Boxer'. Seeking comfort in an uncomfortable world, that could describe many of the choices Jack (and Ennis?) make during their lives. From wives, to jobs, to staying in a familiar setting rather than risking the unknown.
The suggestion, however, that maybe Jack's impulsive visit to Ennis after his divorce might have forestalled a future invitation from Ennis to come up and talk about their options, must admit I can't really see ...
Ennis might be conflicted and afraid, but he certainly had no problem laying out the boundaries on their relationship when they first reunited. And I don't think he would have played games with Jack, he loved him too much. Can't see him being scared off that easily either by Jack's unexpected appearance IF he was seriously considering getting together with him permanently. Ennis wasn't that delicate a flower (low startle point??) that this would make him back off if he'd already made up his mind about something, IMO. I doubt it had even occurred to Ennis that this was finally his chance to make a change. How can Jack be responsible here for what Ennis doesn't say or do?? :-\
See, Jerasjr .. worms everywhere! ;)
Miss-Red
I give huge kudos to Jack for that as well. He became the man he was not because of his father but in spite of him. I also can’t see where Jack’s impulsiveness thwarted any plans Ennis may have had for a future invite. As I said in another post, I’m sure Jack was thinking that he was going to go up there and they would plan their future.
IMO if Ennis had any plans to invite Jack up so they could talk about their options at a later date, he wouldn’t have sent Jack on his way without at least saying something in regards to that. It may not have been the best time to do so and he was caught off guard but still….
As you said- he had no problems laying out the boundaries in their relationship and he isn’t a delicate flower. He was impulsive with that reunion kiss and then leaving for a few days with Jack. He was seen in Jack’s truck when they drove to the motel. His reluctance to ask Jack to stay isn’t because of the girls- he introduced Jack to them {meaning asking him to get a place in town or something as the girls were staying with Ennis}. I’m trying to figure out what made him so damned paranoid about a truck in the distance.
I think him going to Mexico was for comfort as I’ve stated in prior posts but I’m thinking it’s also him trying to take control on some level. That ride back was long and he had a lot of time to think- the poor guy isn’t “good enough” for the men in his life- his father, LD Newsome and Ennis only seems to want him when they are hidden away somewhere. He has to be the one to concede to all of these people whether he likes it or not. Randall was one of the few people in Jack’s life where Jack didn’t have to do all/most of the work. I used to think that look on Jack’s face after Randall propositions him was Jack thinking of Ennis. Now I’m starting to think it was shock or maybe surprise- ‘Wow here’s a guy who is actually approaching ME; I don’t have to go looking for it, he’s making himself available to me, etc.” I think that was empowering to Jack. Even though that scene absolutely rips my heart out and stomps all over it, I’m glad he stood up to Ennis their last time together. I don’t think he’d ever give up on Ennis, nor would I want him to {and that is a different thread anyway} but I think being with Randall made it a lot easier for him to speak his mind.
I also don’t want to come across as bashing Ennis- as I’ve said before- I love both of them and I feel for both of them but that doesn’t stop me from being aggravated at some of the things he {Ennis} does or doesn’t do.
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Featherlight "bashing" in confined quarters of a private bed on the other hand....
see above re: handle with care and RETURN safely when done .... :)
LOL. ;D
I normally refer to them as "my boys." He is OUR JACK-and we all get to keep him alive with his memory safe in our hearts.
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Miss-Red
I give huge kudos to Jack for that as well. He became the man he was not because of his father but in spite of him. I also can’t see where Jack’s impulsiveness thwarted any plans Ennis may have had for a future invite. As I said in another post, I’m sure Jack was thinking that he was going to go up there and they would plan their future.
IMO if Ennis had any plans to invite Jack up so they could talk about their options at a later date, he wouldn’t have sent Jack on his way without at least saying something in regards to that. It may not have been the best time to do so and he was caught off guard but still….
As you said- he had no problems laying out the boundaries in their relationship and he isn’t a delicate flower. He was impulsive with that reunion kiss and then leaving for a few days with Jack. He was seen in Jack’s truck when they drove to the motel. His reluctance to ask Jack to stay isn’t because of the girls- he introduced Jack to them {meaning asking him to get a place in town or something as the girls were staying with Ennis}. I’m trying to figure out what made him so damned paranoid about a truck in the distance.
I think him going to Mexico was for comfort as I’ve stated in prior posts but I’m thinking it’s also him trying to take control on some level. That ride back was long and he had a lot of time to think- the poor guy isn’t “good enough” for the men in his life- his father, LD Newsome and Ennis only seems to want him when they are hidden away somewhere. He has to be the one to concede to all of these people whether he likes it or not. Randall was one of the few people in Jack’s life where Jack didn’t have to do all/most of the work. I used to think that look on Jack’s face after Randall propositions him was Jack thinking of Ennis. Now I’m starting to think it was shock or maybe surprise- ‘Wow here’s a guy who is actually approaching ME; I don’t have to go looking for it, he’s making himself available to me, etc.” I think that was empowering to Jack. Even though that scene absolutely rips my heart out and stomps all over it, I’m glad he stood up to Ennis their last time together. I don’t think he’d ever give up on Ennis, nor would I want him to {and that is a different thread anyway} but I think being with Randall made it a lot easier for him to speak his mind.
I also don’t want to come across as bashing Ennis- as I’ve said before- I love both of them and I feel for both of them but that doesn’t stop me from being aggravated at some of the things he {Ennis} does or doesn’t do.
Hey, LJN - love this post!
You make an excellent comment about Jack been treated like he as never good enough for the men in his life. That about sums up part of what I always felt was Jack's cross to bear. Ennis getting paranoid about that damn truck, as you say, would have been another smackdown to Jack, IMO, whatever Ennis might have thought he had to worry about just the fact that he was worried was disrepectful, especially given the conversation they were trying to have at that exact moment.
Thanks for all these great insights into "our boys"; they might aggravate us, but we do love 'em, the dears. "sigh" :)
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Miss-Red
I give huge kudos to Jack for that as well. He became the man he was not because of his father but in spite of him. I also can’t see where Jack’s impulsiveness thwarted any plans Ennis may have had for a future invite. As I said in another post, I’m sure Jack was thinking that he was going to go up there and they would plan their future.
IMO if Ennis had any plans to invite Jack up so they could talk about their options at a later date, he wouldn’t have sent Jack on his way without at least saying something in regards to that. It may not have been the best time to do so and he was caught off guard but still….
As you said- he had no problems laying out the boundaries in their relationship and he isn’t a delicate flower. He was impulsive with that reunion kiss and then leaving for a few days with Jack. He was seen in Jack’s truck when they drove to the motel. His reluctance to ask Jack to stay isn’t because of the girls- he introduced Jack to them {meaning asking him to get a place in town or something as the girls were staying with Ennis}. I’m trying to figure out what made him so damned paranoid about a truck in the distance.
I think him going to Mexico was for comfort as I’ve stated in prior posts but I’m thinking it’s also him trying to take control on some level. That ride back was long and he had a lot of time to think- the poor guy isn’t “good enough” for the men in his life- his father, LD Newsome and Ennis only seems to want him when they are hidden away somewhere. He has to be the one to concede to all of these people whether he likes it or not. Randall was one of the few people in Jack’s life where Jack didn’t have to do all/most of the work. I used to think that look on Jack’s face after Randall propositions him was Jack thinking of Ennis. Now I’m starting to think it was shock or maybe surprise- ‘Wow here’s a guy who is actually approaching ME; I don’t have to go looking for it, he’s making himself available to me, etc.” I think that was empowering to Jack. Even though that scene absolutely rips my heart out and stomps all over it, I’m glad he stood up to Ennis their last time together. I don’t think he’d ever give up on Ennis, nor would I want him to {and that is a different thread anyway} but I think being with Randall made it a lot easier for him to speak his mind.
I also don’t want to come across as bashing Ennis- as I’ve said before- I love both of them and I feel for both of them but that doesn’t stop me from being aggravated at some of the things he {Ennis} does or doesn’t do.
Hey, LJN - love this post!
You make an excellent comment about Jack been treated like he as never good enough for the men in his life. That about sums up part of what I always felt was Jack's cross to bear. Ennis getting paranoid about that damn truck, as you say, would have been another smackdown to Jack, IMO, whatever Ennis might have thought he had to worry about just the fact that he was worried was disrepectful, especially given the conversation they were trying to have at that exact moment.
Thanks for all these great insights into "our boys"; they might aggravate us, but we do love 'em, the dears. "sigh" :)
Indeed LuvJackNasty, this is beautiful. I especially love your take on Jack and Randall. It convinces me.
Thank you. And thanks all for contributing thoughfully to this difficult topic.
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Thanks guys! :)
It always amazes me how there's always another layer to peel or a deeper level to go to with this movie, not to mention the depth that of this movie's impact on all of us as evidenced in threads all over this wonderful forum.
I was reviewing the divorce scene before and you have Ennis happy to see Jack, he brings him right over to the girls and introduces him/them like it was no big deal. After Jack says he had to ask about 10 different people in Riverton where Ennis was, Ennis' whole demeanor shifts and he grunts. Then the truck appears- I was thinking perhaps Ennis thought Jack was followed? Maybe that is the reason he was so paranoid?
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Thanks guys! :)
It always amazes me how there's always another layer to peel or a deeper level to go to with this movie, not to mention the depth that of this movie's impact on all of us as evidenced in threads all over this wonderful forum.
I was reviewing the divorce scene before and you have Ennis happy to see Jack, he brings him right over to the girls and introduces him/them like it was no big deal. After Jack says he had to ask about 10 different people in Riverton where Ennis was, Ennis' whole demeanor shifts and he grunts. Then the truck appears- I was thinking perhaps Ennis thought Jack was followed? Maybe that is the reason he was so paranoid?
omg you are right! it was after that!
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1. being unfaithful to Alma at the 1st place
2. afraid of the eyes of the society....one should not live in the shadow of the society (unlesshe's comducting crimes lol)