Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: tpe on May 05, 2006, 09:37 AM
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This original post by MississaugaRed has created quite a discussion in the thread Ennis:Sending up a prayer of thanks that we have decided to create a separate thread for it.
In some ways, it is similar to some old threads posted in this subforum, except that the scope of MississaugaRed's observation is quite broad, and the overall vision quite comprehensive and unified.
The discussion in the Ennis:Sending up a prayer of thanks thread was kicked off to a good start by Patriot1, who suggested that perhaps this is a case of over-analysis.
Whether you agree with MississaugaRed or not, it is good to be able to get the comments and thoughts of the other forum members regarding this topic.
Do be generous in your reactions. :)
Here is the original post from the Ennis:Sending up a prayer of thanks thread.
Re: the "prayer of thanks" scene, there was another thing that recently caught my eye, wondered if anyone else as already noticed this. It relates back to other scenes as well but struck me as particularly telling in this one.
When Ennis is lying back looking up at the stars, both he and Jack have their hats off. They have that brief sweet moment about heaven and prayers, where things may or may not have been left unsaid. But as soon as Jack starts laying out his dream of them setting up a place together, Ennis sits up and immediately slips his hat back on. Then he starts giving Jack all the reasons why his dream is not going to happen.
Watching Ennis slip that hat back on his head reminds me of a soldier slipping on a piece of armour. Bare headed he's vulnerable, hat on and he feels protected. It's been said before that both men use their hats to good advantage, and that Ennis often hides in his. I'm starting to think it's more than that.
FNIT - sleeping, both hats off, they are open to each other and become intimate.
SNIT - when Ennis gets up the courage to go to Jack, he removes his hat, but goes into the tent still holding it in front of him, like a shield. It's Jack who gently tugs it out of his hand, a gesture that might mean "open up to me, you don't need to hide yourself from me, I'll keep you safe".
Reunion Kiss - Ennis comes to Jack bareheaded - and knocks Jack's hat off him before kissing him. Same message, maybe - "open up to me"?
Last camping trip - sitting around the fire, talking, telling some half truths, hats on; sleeping together, cuddling with hats off; next day recriminations, hats on because the truths are bitter ones and they both feel the need for protection (?).
Maybe I'm stretching the idea too far, but it's a pattern I see often in them.
So back to the "prayer"; They are both open and in tune to begin, and this is where some see the potential for Ennis to have opened up more if he'd had a few seconds extra of silence to gather his courage maybe. But as soon as that hat goes on, Ennis is guarded, no longer as accessible. Jack, though, is still hatless, i.e. vulnerable, and we see his hurt as his dreams are shot down.
So re hats ... "you don't think I'm too fast, do you? Maybe I should put the brakes on??" :) (misquote, but hey, I tried)
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And then, after the first message NoReins says:
MissRed - I think that just may be the best post I've read on here. It's so obvious when you lay it all out, but I haven't seen it discussed in any other threads so I'm guessing the significance of the hats had been lost on us all. No reins (required) on this one - I think you're absolutely right. I always wondered about Ennis putting his hat back on before he shot Jack's dreams down in flames, but I'd never tied it into any other scenes or worked out why, so thank you so much for sharing your ideas here Smiley
And now I just want to go home and watch the whole damn thing again so I can see all these "hat moments"...
And then TPE says:
I agree with NoReins. This is indeed a beautiful post that ties a lot of scenes on an emotional level.
In the scene concerning Jack's dream, Ennis does indeed put on the hat the moment he starts saying "It ain't gonna be that way." And of course, at the end of the scene, Jack physically takes hold of Ennis, as if to reclaim him from 'under the hat'.
I do remember a thread or threads that deal specifically with hat colors and how hats are used in the movie, although I am not so sure if they ever tied together all these emotions the way the above post does.
It is not totally off topic. The 'prayer of thanks' is a high point from which Ennis rapidly descends, as witnessed by the succeeding scene where he recalls Earl and Rich. Observe that throughout these 2 scenes, Jack remains bareheaded. He makes himself vulnerable all throughout. It is his vulnerability that leads him to touch Ennis in the end. The 'prayer of thanks' brings him to a high point where he feels secure with his dream of love. He remains bareheaded -- vulnerable. He is not to descend so easily.
Finally, although Ennis becomes defensive in this scene when Jack talks about his dream, we note that ENNIS MOVES CLOSER TO JACK nonetheless. He is involuntarily seeking refuge in the love they both share. He has not repudiated that love. It is the dream of a shared life that he doubts and fears. You see Ennis most secure in the 'prayer of thanks' scene. It is so moving to see him instinctively seeking refuge in Jack's loving proximity.
Then Patriot1 says:
Ladies, ladies, aren't we going just a little too far in this analysis? Don't you think there are practicle reasons for having hats off?
When a man wears a brimmed hat and he lays down, he removes his hat because not doing so will fold the brim in the back up. Nothing more complicated than that.
If a man takes a nap he might take the hat off or to keep the bright light out of his eyes he may tilt the hat down over his eye so the brim isn't sticking into the log or whatever he is resting his head against, and to keep the light out of his eyes.
But, as in the first tent scene, they were sleeping. When you go to sleep you don't wear your hat to bed.
The second night in the tent Ennis definitely took his hat off before getting to the tent. There was an entire discussion about this and it was decided that Ennis was coming to Jack "hat in hand." Jack takes the hat and sets it aside. Don't need a hat to kiss and later make love do we?
The reunion kiss, did you see how they were kissing, face to face. If Jack had his hat on the brim of his hat would have been in Ennis' face. The hat had to go, and seeing it was Ennis that was pushing Jack into a corner out of sight and Jack had no idea what was about to happen, Ennis knocked it off of Jack's head to get it out of the way.
Last camping trip the same thing. You don't go to sleep with your hat on.
And as for Ennis laying down looking up at the stars, well, he was laying down. That is why he had his hat off. As soon as he got up the hat went on.
Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
:)
Then tpe writes:
Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
I am not sure, personally, Patriot1.
Honestly, with tears in my eyes just know, I am sure I am being more emotional than analytical at the moment.
I guess we tend to see symbolism where it is most meaningful to us. I apologize for this, but the vision becomes a bit too personal for me to rationaize it so deep inside.
Then MississaugaRed writes:
snip ...
Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
Well, gosh, Patriot1, isn't overanalzing the point? Otherwise there wouldn't be over 100,000 posts on ennisjack! :)
Being practical would mean just watching the film and moving on. Just can't be that practical, sorry! ;)
Then the next message written was from NoReins and i said:
Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
Quite possibly - but, hell, it's fun ;D
Anyway, still doesn't really answer why Ennis puts his hat on when he sits up after the "prayer of thanks". OK, he was sitting up, but why put his hat on? Jack didn't have his on and he was sitting up all the time.
Go on then.... ;)
To which Patriot1 wrote:
Being practical would mean just watching the film and moving on. Just can't be that practical, sorry! ;)
No!! Not at all! There are hunderds of things in this movie to talk about without making things up or assigning motives to cast and crew that they never even thought about. :D
But, I did enjoy a good laugh to my self. Thanks for that. ;D
Then, the message after that was also from Patriot1:
Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
Quite possibly - but, hell, it's fun ;D
Anyway, still doesn't really answer why Ennis puts his hat on when he sits up after the "prayer of thanks". OK, he was sitting up, but why put his hat on? Jack didn't have his on and he was sitting up all the time.
Go on then.... ;)
This is only a guess mind you. But, seeing Ennis had it handy, he put it on when he sat up. When a man wears a hat outside and he takes it off for a reason (to lay down) but then he gets up, he puts the hat back on where it belongs. He is out doors. And, I am sure he didn't want to sit there holding it. I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I''d bet it wasn't anywhere around him. And, for a practicle reason he didn't have it on, it would have shaded his face from the firelight and wouldn't have been a good picture. Couldn't have seen the facial expressions on his face as he and Ennis talked.
I just watched this scene again. Ennis puts his hat back on because the hat was on his knee while he was laying down. So, when he got up he put it back on.
To which NoReins wrote:
I just watched this scene again. Ennis puts his hat back on because the hat was on his knee while he was laying down. So, when he got up he put it back on.
Ah, that's cheating - I'm at work and can't watch bits again to clarify things ;D
Just about to leave, though - may have to watch some bits of the movie when I get in ;)
And then a reply from Patriot1:
I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I'd bet it wasn't anywhere around him.
Sorry for quoting myself here.
The reason I didn't see Jack's hat is because it is in plain sight sitting on his knee. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure would have lost that bet if I didn't spot it before someone else did!! ;D
But, I will stick to the practical reason he wasn't wearing it. Wasn't trying to make himself vulnerable by taking it off. ;) I don't think our boys thought that deeply.
And the next message was from FlwrChild:
But Patriot1, I think you're missing the point. Remember, that's half the point of poetry, literature, movies, etc. Assigning motives, yes. Making things up, no. The author wants each reader/viewer to interpret it uniquely. He/she expresses his/her vision and then sets it free to inspire the next person in whatever way it will. If so many layers can be found in one piece of artwork, I should think most authors/artists would be extremely proud.
Besides, it is just so much fun!
Which brought about this reply from FlwrChild:
Isn't it possible you are all just over analyzing this just a bit?
;D
I am not sure, personally, Patriot1.
Honestly, with tears in my eyes just know, I am sure I am being more emotional than analytical at the moment.
I guess we tend to see symbolism where it is most meaningful to us. I apologize for this, but the vision becomes a bit too personal for me to rationaize it so deep inside.
tpe, I love you. And you truly are a poet! Don't apologize - you're absolutely right. We each see it differently because it touches on something personal in all of us. You don't have to be a gay cowboy to be moved by this story or to relate to certain aspects of it. On a side note, I have found this to be the case for myself with a lot of Jake's movies. In the Good Girl, it's Holden wanting someone who 'gets' him (I do too). In MM, it's Joe's comment about knowing someone better than 60 lousy percent because it's the last 40 that counts (very personal issue for me right now too). And though I am neither male nor gay, in the context of the dynamics of my relationship, I am definitely Jack.
So you see, you're supposed to look at it through the eyes of your own personal experience. All we really have for reference in the end is who we are.
And then another reply from NoReins:
I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I'd bet it wasn't anywhere around him.
Sorry for quoting myself here.
The reason I didn't see Jack's hat is because it is in plain sight sitting on his knee. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure would have lost that bet if I didn't spot it before someone else did!! ;D
But, I will stick to the practical reason he wasn't wearing it. Wasn't trying to make himself vulnerable by taking it off. ;) I don't think our boys thought that deeply.
Damn you Patriot1! I got in from work and put the dvd on (it lives in the player) to check this bit....spotted it right away, but couldn't tear myself away from the movie to come on here immediately...and now I get round to it, I find out you spotted it first. Not fair ;)
Then a reply from Patriot1:
I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I'd bet it wasn't anywhere around him.
Sorry for quoting myself here.
The reason I didn't see Jack's hat is because it is in plain sight sitting on his knee. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure would have lost that bet if I didn't spot it before someone else did!! ;D
But, I will stick to the practical reason he wasn't wearing it. Wasn't trying to make himself vulnerable by taking it off. ;) I don't think our boys thought that deeply.
Damn you Patriot1! I got in from work and put the dvd on (it lives in the player) to check this bit....spotted it right away, but couldn't tear myself away from the movie to come on here immediately...and now I get round to it, I find out you spotted it first. Not fair ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Sorry dear. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
To which NoReins wrote:
I didn't even see Jack's hat anywhere around. Maybe it was in the tent or in the truck. Don't know. But I'd bet it wasn't anywhere around him.
Sorry for quoting myself here.
The reason I didn't see Jack's hat is because it is in plain sight sitting on his knee. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure would have lost that bet if I didn't spot it before someone else did!! ;D
But, I will stick to the practical reason he wasn't wearing it. Wasn't trying to make himself vulnerable by taking it off. ;) I don't think our boys thought that deeply.
Damn you Patriot1! I got in from work and put the dvd on (it lives in the player) to check this bit....spotted it right away, but couldn't tear myself away from the movie to come on here immediately...and now I get round to it, I find out you spotted it first. Not fair ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Sorry dear. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
S'alright ;)
And then a message from tpe:
Thanks FlwrChild, and thanks to everyone who puts the time to make this thread so meaningful and fun at the same time.
FlwrChild, I was just discussing the movie the other day with my supervisor. He agrees with what you said here.
There is too much beauty in this scene to forfeit to the mundane.
If ever I have a triptych constructed in the golden shrine of BBM, the central panel shall depict the dozy embrace, on one side shall depict the shirts, and the other side shall depict the 'prayer of thanks'.
For now, that shrine is within all of us. The beauty of this scene and all of BBM is within each of us. It rejoices in every waking moment that we live by a vision of such love.
Then edgar said:
I'm checkin' in here after the fight's over, it seems, but I think Flower Child has a good point about the hats.
It's done in other movies and plays, by the way. Hat on obviously hides more of a person's face, makes them less readable, less emotionally available, etc.
Just think of the early scene where the old, pre-Jack Ennis is standing there using his hat to hide behind when Jack is trying to check him out.
Then Patriot1 said:
Just think of the early scene where the old, pre-Jack Ennis is standing there using his hat to hide behind when Jack is trying to check him out.
I am trying to imagine that same scene with Ennis laying down trying to hide his face. Would he have his hat on or no. I think not.
Then FlwrChild said:
I'm checkin' in here after the fight's over, it seems, but I think Flower Child has a good point about the hats.
It's done in other movies and plays, by the way. Hat on obviously hides more of a person's face, makes them less readable, less emotionally available, etc.
Just think of the early scene where the old, pre-Jack Ennis is standing there using his hat to hide behind when Jack is trying to check him out.
Just to clarify - I have to give credit where credit is due. MississaugaRed is responsible for the excellent post on the hats. :)
Then edgar said:
I'm checkin' in here after the fight's over, it seems, but I think Flower Child has a good point about the hats.
It's done in other movies and plays, by the way. Hat on obviously hides more of a person's face, makes them less readable, less emotionally available, etc.
Just think of the early scene where the old, pre-Jack Ennis is standing there using his hat to hide behind when Jack is trying to check him out.
Just to clarify - I have to give credit where credit is due. MississaugaRed is responsible for the excellent post on the hats. :)
Oops!! Kudos to Missasauga Red. *applause*
Patriot... are you trying to be difficult here? ;)
Obviously, you can't use *just* hats 100 per cent of the time to communicate open/closed emotional stance. But, as MissRed points out, it is *one* of the tools Lee uses to help communicate the emotions and subtelties of this film. In this film, as we all know, as much is communicated by what remains unsaid as by what is said. So you gotta use some other tactics now and then. We got surreptitious glances, we got licking lips, we got jaw muscles locking, we got various sighs, grunts and yeehaws....
and. we. got. hats.
Enjoy it! ;D
To which MississaugaRed said:
You are all so funny!!!
I can't take any credit for all the excellent posts following my "throwing my hat into the ring" as it were, Edgar! :)
NoReins, FlwrChild, Tpe (and now you, Edgar) all responded so eloquently to Patriot1's fun challenge to the hat theme, far better than I could have, nothin' for me to do but stand back and enjoy the ride. It's been entertaining, to say the least. I'd say "ain't no reins on this one", but she has been here, so .. Hi, NoReins!
For the record, Patriot1 is absolutely correct in that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ... but sometimes it's more, n'est pas?? ;)
Didn't think my little hat comments would go this far, though. Maybe this discussion should be moved to a more appropriate thread so as not to offend?? Don't want to take the focus off the "prayer of thanks" topic ..... ???
(that's me, fearing the Moderators again!! - and I ain't jokin'! ... okay, well, maybe a little)
And the next message came from NoReins:
I'd say "ain't no reins on this one", but she has been here, so .. Hi, NoReins!
;D
This has become a pretty entertaining thread, hasn't it? But maybe we should get back to the original (fantastic) scene under discussion - go on MissRed, get that thread started ;)
Then the last message of the original thread was from tpe:
Although the digression about that hats originated here as a meaningful observation relative to the original topic, perhaps we should leave it that for the moment and go back the wonderful scene at hand. :)
Thanks all. If such is the desire, perhaps one of us can create a separate thread, quoting the original post about the hats?
Let us appreciate anew that splendid vision of Ennis and Jack in their first reunion in the mountains...
And there you have the whole discussion about the hats and their mystical meaning. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks Patriot1 for doing all the work! :)
That should give everyone a comprehensive view of the discussion!
Thomas
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Thanks Patriot1 for doing all the work! :)
That should give everyone a comprehensive view of the discussion!
Thomas
Damn you are fast Thomas! I just clicked POST 1 minute ago and already you have seen it and replied to it already. Too fast for me. :D ;)
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Damn you are fast Thomas! I just clicked POST 1 minute ago and already you have seen it and replied to it already. Too fast for me. :D ;)
At least the three of us here (MississaugaRed included) have already seen the entire unfolding of the discussion, so we are at an advantage here. :)
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I have just read it now..
thankx for creating a new thread
x
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I'm so glad Patriot1 did all that - I think I'd have ended up with the wrong names attached to quotes ::)
So anyway....are the hats symbolic or not? ;)
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I love this topic--yes, the hats *absolutely* are symbolic. I was struck, too, by the contrast in this scene between Ennis replacing his hat and then telling Jack about himself, a hatless and vulnerable 9-year-old, forced to witness a horrendous instance of torture/murder. Then we return to our main scene and see Ennis saddened anew, still wearing his hat as a symbol (IMO anyway) of manly fortitude (and the soldier comparison was very apt), comforted by a hatless Jack.
Look at all the times, too, when Ennis uses his hat to shield him from others--in the alley, when he and Jack grab each other and tumble down onto the ground to kiss--and the scenes in which his lack of a hat--at Alma's for Thanksgiving, at the Twists' house--leaves him vulnerable.
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I'm so glad Patriot1 did all that - I think I'd have ended up with the wrong names attached to quotes ::)
So anyway....are the hats symbolic or not? ;)
whew ... Patriot1, thanks for all the hard work. :) And to tpe for bring us over ... :)
I will stand by my view of the hats being symbolic .. on a subconscious level. Like most body language and "prop"s we use through the day without being aware of it. AND like those we learn to read from other peoples use of them, even without consciously being aware that we are interpreting those things...
Whether the boys were directed into those things by Ang ??? or Jake/Heath added the movements themselves as a way of expressing the parts they were playing .. well, good actors use many tools to get their message across .. why not the hats??
to quote Jack at Thanksgiving .. "HEEERE we go ... " :) :)
OH .. just saw ... Cool, shieldmaid, I completely forgot to add the alley scene and that was one of the things that had trigger the thought in the first place .. Great get, thanks!
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Gosh, what a great thread. All the posts are fascinating, its amazing how one person's 'vision' can open up a angle of thought that i had never noticed before. If i can just add something that in a way is relevant, i was struck by the hats the last time i watched the film (my first dvd viewing!!) but not quite in the way Red mentions.
It hadn't really occurred to me that in the last scenes we see Jack and Ennis together, the 'truth is..' scene and the breaking down scene, they have reverted to the same coloured hats as they wore first up on Brokeback all those years ago. In fact, to my eye they look very similar. I'm not suggesting for one minute they are the same hats ;), just that this little detail suddenly struck me and touched me in a way i wasn't expecting. I remembered during the film, such as the reunion scene, Jack wears a grey hat and Ennis that yucky straw thing, so to see them both in their respective black and white hats, in those final moments moved me.
This could be overanalysis, but in my overemotional state of mind with tears running down my face, all i could think in my head was 'they have come full circle', from them being young, in love and unable to be together, to older, in love and unable to be together. :'(
Sorry to be a little off the mark, but just had to get this one off my chest! ;) :'(
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Gosh, what a great thread. All the posts are fascinating, its amazing how one person's 'vision' can open up a angle of thought that i had never noticed before. If i can just add something that in a way is relevant, i was struck by the hats the last time i watched the film (my first dvd viewing!!) but not quite in the way Red mentions.
It hadn't really occurred to me that in the last scenes we see Jack and Ennis together, the 'truth is..' scene and the breaking down scene, they have reverted to the same coloured hats as they wore first up on Brokeback all those years ago. In fact, to my eye they look very similar. I'm not suggesting for one minute they are the same hats ;), just that this little detail suddenly struck me and touched me in a way i wasn't expecting. I remembered during the film, such as the reunion scene, Jack wears a grey hat and Ennis that yucky straw thing, so to see them both in their respective black and white hats, in those final moments moved me.
This could be overanalysis, but in my overemotional state of mind with tears running down my face, all i could think in my head was 'they have come full circle', from them being young, in love and unable to be together, to older, in love and unable to be together. :'(
Sorry to be a little off the mark, but just had to get this one off my chest! ;) :'(
Wow. I hadn't thought about that at all--but you're so right. Especially when we see Jack remembering his embrace with Ennis all those years ago on Brokeback, and then watching him leave with sadness and anger in his eyes. The hats remind us of their parallel situations. :(
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Sorry to be a little off the mark, but just had to get this one off my chest! ;) :'(
Not at all off the mark, aim15, and very well put! Now I have to watch that scene again, from your point of view .. oh darn. :)
All hat related comments are welcome here, I should think, if we try to tie them in to the emotion and "feel" of the scene or scenes you did so well. Keeps us on our toes. ;)
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Thank you shieldmaid and MississaugaRed for your replies :-*
Yes, another reason to watch the film!! I need to watch it again to pick up on all the hat moments i had missed. As if i needed a reason... ;D
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Well, I'm going to have to watch again 'cause I have to find a way to 'splain how the "hats on" in that beautiful dozy embrace can tie into my whole theory of "hat's on" guarded, "hats off" open/vulnerable ... That may take some fancy dancing, will have to ponder over the weekend .... it may be the exception that proves the rule if I can't dance fast enough .. :) like i said .. you got me on my toes! ;)
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Thanks all for the great replies.
I do personally feel strongly about a symbolic significance when he wears the hat during the scene that starts "I told you...It ain't gonna be that way..."
aimi15, I understand how you feel. It involves a lot of emotions going thru the many scenes touched in this topic. So many scenes... All of them very powerful.
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Great thread here folks, fascinating to read. I have always felt that the hats played a significant part throughout the whole movie. I'm not a great analyzer, I just let my emotions tell me what's going on and try to listen to them.
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Well, I'm going to have to watch again 'cause I have to find a way to 'splain how the "hats on" in that beautiful dozy embrace can tie into my whole theory of "hat's on" guarded, "hats off" open/vulnerable ... That may take some fancy dancing, will have to ponder over the weekend .... it may be the exception that proves the rule if I can't dance fast enough .. :) like i said .. you got me on my toes! ;)
Jeez, MissRed - I never thought about that one. Someone has to come up with an explanation for this real quick or Patriot1 is gonna be on here saying "told you so" ;D
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Well, I'm going to have to watch again 'cause I have to find a way to 'splain how the "hats on" in that beautiful dozy embrace can tie into my whole theory of "hat's on" guarded, "hats off" open/vulnerable ... That may take some fancy dancing, will have to ponder over the weekend .... it may be the exception that proves the rule if I can't dance fast enough .. :) like i said .. you got me on my toes! ;)
Jeez, MissRed - I never thought about that one. Someone has to come up with an explanation for this real quick or Patriot1 is gonna be on here saying "told you so" ;D
well, how about this as a partial answer: when Ennis and Jack are *both* wearing their hats, alone together, they are sharing equal ground. When one dons his hat in front of the other, he is reasserting masculinity or protecting himself. When one takes his hat off, he is opening up to the other. Not a perfect code, but it covers some of their interactions, at least.
On a tangentially related note, I was talking to my husband about this topic this afternoon, and he pointed out that there are several other short stories/books in which hats serve as major symbols. Not to be too OT here, but I thought of a short story I taught in one of my classes this semester: Flannery O'Connor's "Everything that Rises Must Converge." This story could hardly be less related to BBM, but one of the main characters wears a fancy new hat and is delighted with it--until she sees another woman wearing the exact same one.
Sorry for the tangent; just wanted to point out this general trend. This hats thread is one of my very favorite. :)
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Well, I'm going to have to watch again 'cause I have to find a way to 'splain how the "hats on" in that beautiful dozy embrace can tie into my whole theory of "hat's on" guarded, "hats off" open/vulnerable ... That may take some fancy dancing, will have to ponder over the weekend .... it may be the exception that proves the rule if I can't dance fast enough .. :) like i said .. you got me on my toes! ;)
Jeez, MissRed - I never thought about that one. Someone has to come up with an explanation for this real quick or Patriot1 is gonna be on here saying "told you so" ;D
well, how about this as a partial answer: when Ennis and Jack are *both* wearing their hats, alone together, they are sharing equal ground. When one dons his hat in front of the other, he is reasserting masculinity or protecting himself. When one takes his hat off, he is opening up to the other. Not a perfect code, but it covers some of their interactions, at least.
That's not a bad attempt, shieldmaid - well done!
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Jeez, MissRed - I never thought about that one. Someone has to come up with an explanation for this real quick or Patriot1 is gonna be on here saying "told you so" ;D
LOL! I am sitting in the wings just waiting. LOL!!!
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I saw this post at lunchtime- GREAT POSTS!!!!!!
I had some thoughts on some other hats/no hats moments:
When Jack goes back to Aguirre's trailer the next summer he goes in there with his hat in his hand and Aguirre exposes that he knows the truth.
It seems to me that physically harm comes to them when their hats are not removed voluntarily: Ennis' fight after leaving Alma's on thanksgiving, the lasso scene- they are wrestling and their hats are on, shortly after Ennis' falls off he gets hit in the nose, he hits Jack and his hat falls off after he hits the ground. The scene I hate the most- Jack's beating- he is shoved, his hat flies off and we all know what happnes next. :'( >:( The only exception I can think of is when Ennis knocks Jack's hat off for the reunion kiss but they were exposed when Alma opened that door.
Right after FNIT we see Jack not only hatless but naked washing the clothes. Ennis took off without a word to him and here we see him naked, he shivers and you can't be more exposed than that. {I realize he was naked because he was washing the clothes but....}
There were times when they boys were laying down and still had their hats on- in reference to "sending up a prayer of thanks" which started this wonderful thread. Right before FNIT they are laying down by the fire with their hats on. Another moment is Jack playing the busted harmonica {"tent don't look right"}.
I'll have to do some thinking on the dozy embrace with the hats on. All I can think of is the colors in their hats are like the yin and the yang and they are touching. There's an exception to every rule Miss-Red. ;)
Again- Great Thread!
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"I'll have to do some thinking on the dozy embrace with the hats on. All I can think of is the colors in their hats are like the yin and the yang and they are touching. There's an exception to every rule Miss-Red."
Yes, that is a challenge, isn't it...
As everyone else has said, keep in mind that you don't follow all the symbolic gestures all the time. And the hats in the dozy embrace certainly made it stand out as different.
Let's think about the SNIT for a minute as a contrast. Ennis very obviously, very memorably, takes his hat off his head... but then he holds it in front of his, um, pelvis like a shield, then over his chest (heart), until Jack takes it away, gently but firmly (Jack hatless and shirtless here of course), and they open up to each other much more intimately than during the FNIT.
Now back to the dozy embrace. A famous part of the story describes that embrace as as satisfying a "shared and sexless hunger"; at that moment Ennis would not have felt comfortable embracing Jack from the front. So the hats being on can show that the embrace was not a full-on, hat-knocking-off imbroglio like the reunion embrace.
Ever so slightly off topic: in the dozy embrace, I have often thought it odd that Ennis strokes the jacket lapel, not the face or even the shirt. Once again, perhaps in an attempt to the be (somewhat) faithful to the story's description of a "sexless" embrace, the hats and the jackets provide a little insulation against sexuality for the characters (and the viewer). (However, it must be said that the dozy embrace does look to me very much like the embrace of lovers... but still, perhaps, "sexless" at that moment.)
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I was just thinking about the moments, rare as they are, when we see Ennis and Jack interacting around other people. In Aguirre's trailer, they both take their hats off, I think (I guess as a sign of respect to their employer-?). Then, at their first reunion, Ennis knocks Jack's hat off when they kiss, after which Jack replaces it, and when he meets Alma, he lifts his hat briefly in greeting while Ennis puts his own hat back on, heading out the door.
Not sure what conclusion I'm drawing about this--but they seem to take their hats off when around other people, together. Referencing their vulnerability at such times, perhaps?
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I was just thinking about the moments, rare as they are, when we see Ennis and Jack interacting around other people. In Aguirre's trailer, they both take their hats off, I think (I guess as a sign of respect to their employer-?). Then, at their first reunion, Ennis knocks Jack's hat off when they kiss, after which Jack replaces it, and when he meets Alma, he lifts his hat briefly in greeting while Ennis puts his own hat back on, heading out the door.
Not sure what conclusion I'm drawing about this--but they seem to take their hats off when around other people, together. Referencing their vulnerability at such times, perhaps?
Or, perhaps it is just manners? When you enter a building you take your hat off if it is a private space.
For example, you walk into the Empire State Building. You can keep your hat on in the lobby because it is a public space. You get into an elevator with other men, you can keep your hat on. If a woman enters the elevator you take the hat off out of respect for the woman. You step out of the elevator into a public hall you can put your hat back on. You enter an office, you take your hat off.
Jack should have taken his hat off when entering the Del Mar home. He didn't but at least he had manners enough to tip his hat when introduced to Alma. I took his keeping his hat on in the presence of Alma as an insult to her. Or, at least it showed he had little regard for her or who she was.
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Jack should have taken his hat off when entering the Del Mar home. He didn't but at least he had manners enough to tip his hat when introduced to Alma. I took his keeping his hat on in the presence of Alma as an insult to her. Or, at least it showed he had little regard for her or who she was.
Or maybe he just didn't want her to see how flushed he was ;D
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Or, perhaps it is just manners?
In another thread I've asked why they have their hats on (almost) all the time - even when they were dancing. I got the impression that in the "cowbow/western" world You don't remove Your hat as often as in other 'cultures'.
I've learned to always take off my 'hat' when I'm indoors. So, every time I'm passing a door into something (a building, a bus etc) I remove my 'hat' - even if there isn't anyone else there.
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Or, perhaps it is just manners?
In another thread I've asked why they have their hats on (almost) all the time - even when they were dancing. I got the impression that in the "cowbow/western" world You don't remove Your hat as often as in other 'cultures'.
I've learned to always take off my 'hat' when I'm indoors. So, every time I'm passing a door into something (a building, a bus etc) I remove my 'hat' - even if there isn't anyone else there.
Apparently, according to a few women, cowboys are suppose to sleep in their hats or it has some mystical meaning. ;D ;D ;D ;D LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is the way I was taught also PetterG. Anytime inside hat comes off. However, I remember from old movies seeing men with their hats on inside of office buildings, just as an example, and looked into it. According to Emily Post, a man may keep his hat on in any public space.
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While watching again last night, I spotted another moment where Jack is lying down and wearing his hat. It's quite early on, when he's still doing the herder job and he's lying with his head against a rock (or something) with one of the dogs beside him, and he's got his hat on.
So, is it just Ennis who doesn't wear his hat when lying down? Patriot1 - any comment? ;)
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While watching again last night, I spotted another moment where Jack is lying down and wearing his hat. It's quite early on, when he's still doing the herder job and he's lying with his head against a rock (or something) with one of the dogs beside him, and he's got his hat on.
So, is it just Ennis who doesn't wear his hat when lying down? Patriot1 - any comment? ;)
Well, unless I am mistaken, you are talking of Jack laying down with the dog. If you will notice, he has his hat pulled down over his face to keep the light out of his eyes as I said in a previous post. ;)
"If a man takes a nap he might take the hat off or to keep the bright light out of his eyes he may tilt the hat down over his eye so the brim isn't sticking into the log or whatever he is resting his head against.'
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FJackNappingwithDog.jpg&hash=04eefb983851c7b214572f86ce83b65deb4ebc45)
Now could you see Ennis wearing his hat like that in the "It could be like this" scene? You wouldn't see his face and that great smile.
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While watching again last night, I spotted another moment where Jack is lying down and wearing his hat. It's quite early on, when he's still doing the herder job and he's lying with his head against a rock (or something) with one of the dogs beside him, and he's got his hat on.
So, is it just Ennis who doesn't wear his hat when lying down? Patriot1 - any comment? ;)
Well, unless I am mistaken, you are talking of Jack laying down with the dog. If you will notice, he has his hat pulled down over his face to keep the light out of his eyes as I said in a previous post. ;)
"If a man takes a nap he might take the hat off or to keep the bright light out of his eyes he may tilt the hat down over his eye so the brim isn't sticking into the log or whatever he is resting his head against.'
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FJackNappingwithDog.jpg&hash=04eefb983851c7b214572f86ce83b65deb4ebc45)
Yep, that's the scene I was talking about. Apologies for missing your earlier post....you really do have an answer for everything, Patriot1 ::) ;)
Now could you see Ennis wearing his hat like that in the "It could be like this" scene? You wouldn't see his face and that great smile.
Oh, believe me, I'm so glad Ennis wasn't wearing his hat in that scene - he looks so peaceful and happy, and the smile and wink are wonderful so it would be a travesty if that was covered up in any way :)
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Yep, that's the scene I was talking about. Apologies for missing your earlier post....you really do have an answer for everything, Patriot1 ::) ;)
Well, NoReins, I try. Sometimes I am even right!!! :o ;)
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Okay, hadn’t remembered to check back in here for a while. Thought I might clear up a loose end or two for my own piece of mind before putting the topic to bed, so to speak! :)
The whole "hat" discussion came back to me because of an entertainment program I watched last week. They were interviewing the musician Daniel Powder, "(so you had a) Bad Day". Apparently he gets a lot of flack for all the hats he wears. In this video he's wearing at least 6 different ones. He admitted the hats were a security blanket for him, he uses them like a crutch. He actually said "when I'm wearing a hat, and I put my head down, it's like a buffer between me and the world." How appropriate was that to some of the things we were hypothesizing here? :D So, ...onward ....
Edgar, Shieldmaid, LJN; wonderful observations. I love what you all had to say about the dozy embrace both as it relates to the hat discussion and how this perfect moment still shows Ennis's conflicted nature.
"Now back to the dozy embrace. A famous part of the story describes that embrace as as satisfying a "shared and sexless hunger"; at that moment Ennis would not have felt comfortable embracing Jack from the front. So the hats being on can show that the embrace was not a full-on, hat-knocking-off imbroglio like the reunion embrace.
Ever so slightly off topic: in the dozy embrace, I have often thought it odd that Ennis strokes the jacket lapel, not the face or even the shirt. Once again, perhaps in an attempt to the be (somewhat) faithful to the story's description of a "sexless" embrace, the hats and the jackets provide a little insulation against sexuality for the characters (and the viewer). (However, it must be said that the dozy embrace does look to me very much like the embrace of lovers... but still, perhaps, "sexless" at that moment.)
Edgar, this was an excellent point - it's the embrace of lovers without the immediate urgency of fulfilling the physical aspect of their love. And it makes perfect sense that their clothing as you say would "insulate" them, allowing the spiritual to be forefront of the sensual for this moment.
But notice that moment when Jack dips his head down slightly, because even in this embrace which he remembers as sexless, he still finds comfort in skin to skin contract with Ennis, rubbing his chin against Ennis’ hand. (Reminds me for some reason of Thomas’s observation about Jack reaching up under Ennis's hat to touch his face at the end of the “prayer of thanks” scene; here Jack, from under his own hat, is still tentatively reaching out.)
Right after FNIT we see Jack not only hatless but naked washing the clothes. Ennis took off without a word to him and here we see him naked, he shivers and you can't be more exposed than that. {I realize he was naked because he was washing the clothes but....}
LJN, I love this comment about how exposed Jack is in this quick scene. Shivering, cold, naked, left for this moment in time emotionally adrift, the scene totally speaks of his vulnerability. This is a similar notion to the one I got about the shot of them sleeping together on their last camping trip, when I equated being hatless while sleeping together to being open to one another. Patriot1 rightly points out that one doesn't (typically) wear hats to bed and then we started the whole discussion that eventually lead here. :)
In context of last night camping, though, if we are debating hatless = open, vulnerable, then you’re never more vulnerable then when you’re asleep, and one of the must trusting things you can do is sleep with someone. According to Ang, this scene was in part to convey the idea that theirs was not just a physical relationship, but one based also on affection, the comfort they found in each others company and the compelling need to be together in all ways that any other couple gets to be. So it’s still one of the few times we see an unguarded Ennis; one of the rare times we see him reaching out and touching Jack, with his arm thrown over him in sleep.
In sleep, Ennis relaxes his guard and can allow himself a small expression of his love. (OT - significance of, again, him embracing Jack in affection from behind him, Jack turned away so Ennis doesn’t see his face??? Yes, on the surface, just a comfortable sleeping position, but in the bigger picture ... ??)
As Sheildmaid (& her husband :) ) pointed out earlier, hats have been used in many other stories as major symbols. It may not be that we are over-analyzing so much as we haven't given the film makers or talent enough credit for knowing what they were doing with the props throughout the film.
OT to hats but not to the subject of attaching too much significance to themes within a film ... this weekend I had watched Moonlight Mile, the JG film with Dustin Hoffman, etc., really touching, and afterwards played the director/actor commentary. JG, DH and the director all discussing the process.
Toward the end they started talking about the "repetitive narrative"; that it was important for the characters to have some specific actions, gestures, "tells" unique to them that would continue to appear again and again through the course of the story. It anchors their characters as real people in the eyes of the audience. They spoke of a gesture that DH uses often, and how at the end of the film, JG borrows this action, too, and it's a way of subconsciously connecting the two characters emotionally in the minds of the audience.
The director also said that "if you can trust your audience they will imbue a prop with emotion", that the repetitive use of a prop will "resonate" with them. And naturally, listening to this, as with all things lately, I immediately go back to BBM, and how we were imbuing the hats in some scenes with specific emotional responses.
So, maybe, it's not far-fetched to assign deeper meaning to some of the themes we think we've discovered in BBM - be it the hats,clothing colours, wordplay, whatever. We may just be sensitive enough to pick up on what was put there for us to find! :)
Sorry for the over long post, peoples, my personal vision of hats needed closure and the darn theme just seemed to be everywhere I turned this past week!. Carry on with your regularly scheduled programs.. :) :) Thanks for all the great, great discussion! :-*
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OT to hats but not to the subject of attaching too much significance to themes within a film ... this weekend I had watched Moonlight Mile, the JG film with Dustin Hoffman, etc., really touching, and afterwards played the director/actor commentary. JG, DH and the director all discussing the process.
Toward the end they started talking about the "repetitive narrative"; that it was important for the characters to have some specific actions, gestures, "tells" unique to them that would continue to appear again and again through the course of the story. It anchors their characters as real people in the eyes of the audience. They spoke of a gesture that DH uses often, and how at the end of the film, JG borrows this action, too, and it's a way of subconsciously connecting the two characters emotionally in the minds of the audience.
The director also said that "if you can trust your audience they will imbue a prop with emotion", that the repetitive use of a prop will "resonate" with them. And naturally, listening to this, as with all things lately, I immediately go back to BBM, and how we were imbuing the hats in some scenes with specific emotional responses.
So, maybe, it's not far-fetched to assign deeper meaning to some of the themes we think we've discovered in BBM - be it the hats,clothing colours, wordplay, whatever. We may just be sensitive enough to pick up on what was put there for us to find! :)
Sorry for the over long post, peoples, my personal vision of hats needed closure and the darn theme just seemed to be everywhere I turned this past week!. Carry on with your regularly scheduled programs.. :) :) Thanks for all the great, great discussion! :-*
Perhaps OOT, but what a superb correspondence. I have listened to the commentary in 'Moonlight Mile' God only knows how many times, and I have never made this correspondence you do now.
MississaugaRed, I thank you. This is a very personal gift you share, as far as I am concerned...
Exquisite.
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Thank you, Thomas ... I knew you'd understand and forgive my tangent. :)
All roads lead to Brokeback for me, it's all of a piece, impossible to disengage when it permeates my entire world view these days. So very thankful for ennisjack and the people here who can relate to that passion.
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Thank you, Thomas ... I knew you'd understand and forgive my tangent. :)
All roads lead to Brokeback for me, it's all of a piece, impossible to disengage when it permeates my entire world view these days. So very thankful for ennisjack and the people here who can relate to that passion.
I considered your tangent a personal gift. It is I who must thank you for the wonderful observation.
And this forum is only as good as its members. You constantly raise the bar.
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Thank you, Thomas ... I knew you'd understand and forgive my tangent. :)
All roads lead to Brokeback for me, it's all of a piece, impossible to disengage when it permeates my entire world view these days. So very thankful for ennisjack and the people here who can relate to that passion.
Never a truer word spoken.