You know, I have a completely different take on this line. Jack says this right after he says that all they have is BBM. Then he says "I hope you know this if you don't never know the rest." To me Jack is saying, their relationship is based on the fantasy that was BBM. They haven't moved beyond this "thing" they had on BBM. Knowing the rest for Ennis, would mean realizing and accepting that they love each other and could have had a life together. "The rest" to me is the equivalent of Ennis knowing and owning up to how much he loved Jack. It's just my interpretation, though. I see the interpretation of the posts, above, too.
You know, I have a completely different take on this line. Jack says this right after he says that all they have is BBM. Then he says "I hope you know this if you don't never know the rest." To me Jack is saying, their relationship is based on the fantasy that was BBM. They haven't moved beyond this "thing" they had on BBM. Knowing the rest for Ennis, would mean realizing and accepting that they love each other and could have had a life together. "The rest" to me is the equivalent of Ennis knowing and owning up to how much he loved Jack. It's just my interpretation, though. I see the interpretation of the posts, above, too.
I think it could be a combination of everything..he was frustrated that they could have had this wonderful life together but it didnt happen. He also could have been meaning that he missed Ennis so much when they weren't together that he had to go seek male prostritution to fill as a void. He could be saying that he felt that all they had was Brokeback..and everything was centered around that fact. :'( :'( I do agree his speech speaks of love, frustration, hate, disappointment, and a dream he once had lost..so sad.. :'( :'( maybe he was always saying that he loved Ennis so much it hurt too..
"I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest...." What is the rest? it is not about Randall or the Mexican prostitutes it is about how they missed each other, how they deeply love and how their souls went to a higher state of unity that can't allow them to be appart, how he love him and how he wanted to tell him that. how much he wanted to be with him and spent his last days with him ( :'( :'( :'( :'() jack was telling in a hidden language I love you bastard why you don't want to be with me. he was aware that Ennis was in denial of accepting his love toward him and he wanted to make him wake up of that state. this words hit him and were the ones that caused him to cry it was truth Ennis understood it but too late.....
"I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest...." What is the rest? it is not about Randall or the Mexican prostitutes it is about how they missed each other, how they deeply love and how their souls went to a higher state of unity that can't allow them to be appart, how he love him and how he wanted to tell him that. how much he wanted to be with him and spent his last days with him ( :'( :'( :'( :'() jack was telling in a hidden language I love you bastard why you don't want to be with me. he was aware that Ennis was in denial of accepting his love toward him and he wanted to make him wake up of that state. this words hit him and were the ones that caused him to cry it was truth Ennis understood it but too late.....
Carlos, you hit it. Reading your post along with my mental images of the scence -- just made my eyes teary.
Jack loved Ennis so much to the point that he had to set him free.
Ennis didn't know the rest until the shirts. :'( :'( :'( :'( Thank you Carlos for your wonderful post.
Jack loved Ennis so much to the point that he had to set him free.
Ennis is his sacred realm his soul is only and only Jack knows that but Ennis doesn't, he don't know that Jack love him more than anything that only a minute with him is a paradise for jack and I'm gonna quote a part of the short story when they were at the motel "Come on Ennis, you just shot my airplane out a the sky---give me something a go on" he was aware that he wanted Ennis so badly.
"I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest...." What is the rest? it is not about Randall or the Mexican prostitutes it is about how they missed each other, how they deeply love and how their souls went to a higher state of unity that can't allow them to be appart, how he love him and how he wanted to tell him that. how much he wanted to be with him and spent his last days with him ( :'( :'( :'( :'() jack was telling in a hidden language I love you bastard why you don't want to be with me. he was aware that Ennis was in denial of accepting his love toward him and he wanted to make him wake up of that state. this words hit him and were the ones that caused him to cry it was truth Ennis understood it but too late.....
Jack may have planned to use Randall as his weapon of last resort. If he had brought Randall back to the Twist ranch, he surely would have let Ennis know about it, and I'm sure that would have been the turning point. If Ennis would have shown the slightest anger at the Jack/Randall arrangement, Randall would be history and forgotten by dinnertime. Even though Ennis was wishy-washy about committment, he surely threatened to kill Jack if he ever found out about his playing around in Mexico or elsewhere. That is what I think Jack had in mind by bringing Randall to the Twist's.
"I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest...." What is the rest? it is not about Randall or the Mexican prostitutes it is about how they missed each other, how they deeply love and how their souls went to a higher state of unity that can't allow them to be appart, how he love him and how he wanted to tell him that. how much he wanted to be with him and spent his last days with him ( :'( :'( :'( :'() jack was telling in a hidden language I love you bastard why you don't want to be with me. he was aware that Ennis was in denial of accepting his love toward him and he wanted to make him wake up of that state. this words hit him and were the ones that caused him to cry it was truth Ennis understood it but too late.....
I can't accept that Jack was going to set Ennis free. From the very start--the first reunion--Jack was ready to chuck everything in order to build a life with Ennis. Jack had 20 years invested in Ennis; if Jack had ever had second thoughts about finding someone else, he would have done it long ago. We need to try thinking in terms of 1963-83. I was 19 in 1963, same as Jack and Ennis, and I would rather have died than admit I was a queer or had someone call me a queer. And I was born and raised in California.
Jack didn't tell Ennis about Aguirre seeing them on the mountain to protect him; they were both always protecting each other. But when Mexico came up, this was Jack's last strategy to force Ennis to admit the truth and finally commit to the rest of their lives together.
Jack had played around in Texas and Mexico, but never lost the love he had for Ennis. Ennis lived in a self-imposed fishbowl and was going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of it if they were going to have a life together.
Jack may have planned to use Randall as his weapon of last resort. If he had brought Randall back to the Twist ranch, he surely would have let Ennis know about it, and I'm sure that would have been the turning point. If Ennis would have shown the slightest anger at the Jack/Randall arrangement, Randall would be history and forgotten by dinnertime. Even though Ennis was wishy-washy about committment, he surely threatened to kill Jack if he ever found out about his playing around in Mexico or elsewhere. That is what I think Jack had in mind by bringing Randall to the Twist's.
Jack was the other half of Ennis, and Ennis was the other half of Jack; I think that became a reality shortly after the first reunion.
Jack may have planned to use Randall as his weapon of last resort. If he had brought Randall back to the Twist ranch, he surely would have let Ennis know about it, and I'm sure that would have been the turning point. If Ennis would have shown the slightest anger at the Jack/Randall arrangement, Randall would be history and forgotten by dinnertime. Even though Ennis was wishy-washy about committment, he surely threatened to kill Jack if he ever found out about his playing around in Mexico or elsewhere. That is what I think Jack had in mind by bringing Randall to the Twist's.
Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?
Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?
"Tell you what, we could of had a good life together, a f***in' real good life, had a place of our own. You wouldn't want it, Ennis, so what got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that. It's all we got, boy, f***in' all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest....."I always thought it was a reference to what Ennis said about what goes on in Mexico, but your last line could be right "...how much love Jack was giving Ennis". Ennis is ALWAYS hurting Jack, and just like a puppy that's been kicked, Jack comes right back for more. Perhaps Jack means that Ennis doesn't even realize what Jack goes through to keep their relationship going...1400 miles trips two or three times a year, and never having the life Jack wants with Ennis. Unfortunately Ennis only makes this sad realization after Jack is dead...when he finds out from Jack's dad that Jack always talked about Ennis to his parents, and of course when the found the shirts. "Too late, then, by a long, long while" He finally realizes how much Jack loved him.
What could Jack mean by the rest? Any thought?
The rest - how much love Jack was giving Ennis?
Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?
Hello Patriot1. Yes, IMO, such as scenario does indeed put Jack in a bad light. But I personally am intrigued of this possibility, as implied in my last post. Your deduction is indeed a disturbing corollary to accepting this scenario as plausible...Quote
Do you think Jack could ever do anything like that to anyone?
Jack is a good person.
Kremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?
QuoteKremmer, unless I am misunderstanding you, I don't like the picture of Jack you have painted. You are making Jack sound like a very uncaring person. Are you saying that Jack would let Randall divorce his wife, move to the Twist ranch and let Ennis know to get a reaction from Ennis? And, if the reaction was jealousy Jack would then dump Randall, who no longer had a wife? Did I understand your thoughts correctly?
Jack an uncaring person? No; Jack was driven to desperation to have Ennis in the life he's always dreamt of---a life that would have made Ennis happy if somehow, something could have overcome his fears and dragged him into it. I see Randall as a cypher. Randal was obviously not in love with his wife; she was a marriage of convenience and against his nature just as Alma and Lureen were to Jack and Ennis. Jack had already devoted 20 years of his life to Ennis, and I don't believe he would have hesitated to use Randal as a ruse to convince Ennis that it was at long last decision time.
Ennis and Jack had a history of two decades; Randall was a fling. Nobody knows Randall's feelings in the matter. Love for Jack? Too soon. His first real "natural" sexual relationship? Probably. Notice that Jack's parents never heard from Randall after Jack's death.
Jack an uncaring person? No; Jack was driven to desperation to have Ennis in the life he's always dreamt of---a life that would have made Ennis happy if somehow, something could have overcome his fears and dragged him into it. I see Randall as a cypher. Randal was obviously not in love with his wife; she was a marriage of convenience and against his nature just as Alma and Lureen were to Jack and Ennis. Jack had already devoted 20 years of his life to Ennis, and I don't believe he would have hesitated to use Randal as a ruse to convince Ennis that it was at long last decision time.
Ennis and Jack had a history of two decades; Randall was a fling. Nobody knows Randall's feelings in the matter. Love for Jack? Too soon. His first real "natural" sexual relationship? Probably. Notice that Jack's parents never heard from Randall after Jack's death.
"Tell you what, we could of had a good life together, a f***in' real good life, had a place of our own. You wouldn't want it, Ennis, so what got now is Brokeback Mountain. Everything built on that. It's all we got, boy, f***in' all, so I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest....."I always thought it was a reference to what Ennis said about what goes on in Mexico, but your last line could be right "...how much love Jack was giving Ennis". Ennis is ALWAYS hurting Jack, and just like a puppy that's been kicked, Jack comes right back for more. Perhaps Jack means that Ennis doesn't even realize what Jack goes through to keep their relationship going...1400 miles trips two or three times a year, and never having the life Jack wants with Ennis. Unfortunately Ennis only makes this sad realization after Jack is dead...when he finds out from Jack's dad that Jack always talked about Ennis to his parents, and of course when the found the shirts. "Too late, then, by a long, long while" He finally realizes how much Jack loved him.
What could Jack mean by the rest? Any thought?
The rest - how much love Jack was giving Ennis?
Donna :'(
Jack is accusing Ennis because of failing their love and he tell that Ennis will never know what could mean to live a love in reality and not only in some rare occasions in the mountains.
I also think, like others have said before me, that "the rest" is not just one specific thing but a number of things. .. snip ... There are a lot of things that Ennis doesn't know or realise until it's too late.Keren, so true, everything that has been said here. This one is very powerful, can't even begin to "sum up" the feelings that line of Jack's evokes; you've managed to articulate many of them ... the turmoil inside Jack as he said this must have been incredibly painful to bear ... or to give voice to ... :'(
I also think, like others have said before me, that "the rest" is not just one spesific thing but a number of things. The way I understand it, Jack is saying "I hope you know that" - that all we have is Brokeback mountain and we have nothing beyond that, because you wouldn't commit to our love and you wouldn't come and live with me, so I hope you know that this situation is your fault, "if you don't never know the rest" - if you never know how much I love you, how much I need you, if you never know how much I miss you and how much it hurts, and how bad it gets, to the point that I seek relief in the arms of other men just because I can't be with you... There are a lot of things that Ennis doesn't know or realise until it's too late.
I also think, like others have said before me, that "the rest" is not just one spesific thing but a number of things. The way I understand it, Jack is saying "I hope you know that" - that all we have is Brokeback mountain and we have nothing beyond that, because you wouldn't commit to our love and you wouldn't come and live with me, so I hope you know that this situation is your fault, "if you don't never know the rest" - if you never know how much I love you, how much I need you, if you never know how much I miss you and how much it hurts, and how bad it gets, to the point that I seek relief in the arms of other men just because I can't be with you... There are a lot of things that Ennis doesn't know or realise until it's too late.
I read this at lunchtime-yet another day of crying at my desk! :'(
The rest is so many things to me- much of which has already been expressed so beautifully by everyone here.
The rest is the missed opportunities and a love squandered due to Ennis' fear and reluctance to accept the truth about himself and ultimately their relationship.
I can only imagine that each time Jack's suggestions were rebuffed that it killed Jack a little more each time and that it was like being hit with a tire iron emotionally.
The rest is the love Jack has for Ennis and him being fed up with only feeling truly alive when Ennis sees fit. Jack put his hopes and dreams on the backburner for 20 years. He is not able to express what is truly in his heart for fear that he would scare Ennis off. The sacrifices and concessions that Jack has made over the years to keep the relationship going. That Jack would have given up everything for a life with Ennis
The rest is that Ennis will only be with Jack hidden away- Jack feeling Ennis is ashamed of him and the truth about what he represents in his life.
"What we got now is BBM"- all we have is what could have been- everything is built on trying to recapture that perfect summer of 1963. The rest: "I've been doing everything in my power to keep that alive and you've thrown up roadblocks every step of the way. But no matter how many times you've rejected me, I could never stop loving you." "But you didn't want it Ennis"- You didn't want to accept the truth. You didn't want it to be me."
Ennis could no longer deny "the rest" when he found those shirts.
Ennis could no longer deny "the rest" when he found those shirts.
There is no doubt - love is there. Ennis - the island of the sea. For Jack, he has been floating in the sea alone. He saw an island not far away for him to land. He thought he is getting closer and closer each time to the island but only to know there is stiill some distance.
[quoteThe rest is the love Jack has for Ennis and him being fed up with only feeling truly alive when Ennis sees fit. Jack put his hopes and dreams on the backburner for 20 years. He is not able to express what is truly in his heart for fear that he would scare Ennis off. The sacrifices and concessions that Jack has made over the years to keep the relationship going. That Jack would have given up everything for a life with EnnisQuote
Even though it's not in the original story, when Ennis, sobbing, tells Jack, "It's because a you Jack that I'm like this; I'm nobody, nowhere!" , I can see in Ennis' convoluted/cramped vision of their relationship, that he's lived life on the edge ever since the first reunion. Ennis has taken only fleeting and temporary, low-paying jobs which he could quit or take off at a moment's notice whenever an opportunity to be with Jack appeared. He moved willingly into Riverton, into an apartment, so he could leave anytime; something he couldn't do on a ranch, leaving only Alma and the girls. It seems to me Ennis sacrificed any and all financial security just to be ready to be with Jack on the Mountain. Perhaps Ennis' way of showing "love" for Jack was clumsy and tunnel-visioned, but his utter devotion to Jack seems apparent to me. The tragedy of the entire relationship was Ennis' deathly fear of being discovered, and his fear of relocating somewhere else out of Wyoming, something Jack didn't care about overmuch. The two dear, tragic men were never able to reconcile themselves to any sort of happy medium for a fulfilling life together.
"It's because of you, Ennis, that I'm like this ..". i.e., as LJN said - hopes and dreams on the back burner for 20 years. Maybe Jack's "never know the rest" is his version of the same cry that Ennis makes at the end. ???
LJN, Lindsay, Karen, Ethan et al ... all your posts have made me :'( :'(... again! Very emotional thread, isn't it?
Even though it's not in the original story, when Ennis, sobbing, tells Jack, "It's because a you Jack that I'm like this; I'm nobody, nowhere!" , I can see in Ennis' convoluted/cramped vision of their relationship, that he's lived life on the edge ever since the first reunion. Ennis has taken only fleeting and temporary, low-paying jobs which he could quit or take off at a moment's notice whenever an opportunity to be with Jack appeared. He moved willingly into Riverton, into an apartment, so he could leave anytime; something he couldn't do on a ranch, leaving only Alma and the girls. It seems to me Ennis sacrificed any and all financial security just to be ready to be with Jack on the Mountain. Perhaps Ennis' way of showing "love" for Jack was clumsy and tunnel-visioned, but his utter devotion to Jack seems apparent to me. The tragedy of the entire relationship was Ennis' deathly fear of being discovered, and his fear of relocating somewhere else out of Wyoming, something Jack didn't care about overmuch. The two dear, tragic men were never able to reconcile themselves to any sort of happy medium for a fulfilling life together.
Kemmer, what a beautiful way to sum up Ennis's plea for Jack to understand what he's sacrificed to keep any kind of relationship between them alive all these years, however painful the process. Until this particular moment, I would have wondered if Ennis had had any self-awareness about the path their choices had put them on. This one line shows that he was capable of self-reflection and although may have acted often on instinct as much as reason, part of him knew the cost of all he had done - or not done.
I hear this line, though, and I often think that Jack could have said the exact same thing back to Ennis. "It's because of you, Ennis, that I'm like this ..". i.e., as LJN said - hopes and dreams on the back burner for 20 years. Maybe Jack's "never know the rest" is his version of the same cry that Ennis makes at the end. ???
LJN, Lindsay, Karen, Ethan et al ... all your posts have made me :'( :'(... again! Very emotional thread, isn't it?
Even though it's not in the original story, when Ennis, sobbing, tells Jack, "It's because a you Jack that I'm like this; I'm nobody, nowhere!" , I can see in Ennis' convoluted/cramped vision of their relationship, that he's lived life on the edge ever since the first reunion. Ennis has taken only fleeting and temporary, low-paying jobs which he could quit or take off at a moment's notice whenever an opportunity to be with Jack appeared. He moved willingly into Riverton, into an apartment, so he could leave anytime; something he couldn't do on a ranch, leaving only Alma and the girls. It seems to me Ennis sacrificed any and all financial security just to be ready to be with Jack on the Mountain. Perhaps Ennis' way of showing "love" for Jack was clumsy and tunnel-visioned, but his utter devotion to Jack seems apparent to me. The tragedy of the entire relationship was Ennis' deathly fear of being discovered, and his fear of relocating somewhere else out of Wyoming, something Jack didn't care about overmuch. The two dear, tragic men were never able to reconcile themselves to any sort of happy medium for a fulfilling life together.
Kemmer, what a beautiful way to sum up Ennis's plea for Jack to understand what he's sacrificed to keep any kind of relationship between them alive all these years, however painful the process. Until this particular moment, I would have wondered if Ennis had had any self-awareness about the path their choices had put them on. This one line shows that he was capable of self-reflection and although may have acted often on instinct as much as reason, part of him knew the cost of all he had done - or not done.
I hear this line, though, and I often think that Jack could have said the exact same thing back to Ennis. "It's because of you, Ennis, that I'm like this ..". i.e., as LJN said - hopes and dreams on the back burner for 20 years. Maybe Jack's "never know the rest" is his version of the same cry that Ennis makes at the end. ???
LJN, Lindsay, Karen, Ethan et al ... all your posts have made me :'( :'(... again! Very emotional thread, isn't it?
Well put Kemmer and Miss-Red- Neither of them knew the rest and that is what compounds the tragedy.
Guys this is going to kill me all this comments breaks my heart in pieces!
And yet...and yet...we hopelessly read on...we ever so hopelessly read on...
And yet...and yet...we hopelessly read on...we ever so hopelessly read on...
Hopelessly yet satisfactorily. We wanna know "the rest"
And yet...and yet...we hopelessly read on...we ever so hopelessly read on...
Hopelessly yet satisfactorily. We wanna know "the rest"
And yet...and yet...we hopelessly read on...we ever so hopelessly read on...
Hopelessly yet satisfactorily. We wanna know "the rest"
Not only "the rest", but the hearts and souls and minds of the two simple, tragic men who have brought such wonder, pathos, grief, and soaring hope into our lives. :'(
And yet...and yet...we hopelessly read on...we ever so hopelessly read on...
Hopelessly yet satisfactorily. We wanna know "the rest"
Not only "the rest", but the hearts and souls and minds of the two simple, tragic men who have brought such wonder, pathos, grief, and soaring hope into our lives. :'(
Yes, that is it, hope. Their pain and tragedy gives us hope. That is the message of the story and the movie and I don't think they even knew it. Brokeback Mountain is a slap in the face, a wake up call for all of us. Love isn't something to be played with. It's not a toy, some stupid moment of lust to be followed by years of shallow acceptence and ultimately regret. I saw the target and failed to hit the bull's eye. Not a pretty picture but I will keep shooting and hope I have learned from this experience.
kinda ot but in the short story it says that Ennis said something that only the horses heard after that so i'm also wondering what could that have being
Jack has hit a nerve in Ennis with the satement "We coulda had a real good life," and Ennis, feeling pain, just wants to strike out and cause pain. At least he said it quietly to the horses; he has some self-control. Jack is at his wit's end.
From what we'd seen of Ennis before this, could easily have been "G*d damn .. Jack F**king Twist." He says that a lot, both as a curse and a prayer.Jack has hit a nerve in Ennis with the satement "We coulda had a real good life," and Ennis, feeling pain, just wants to strike out and cause pain. At least he said it quietly to the horses; he has some self-control. Jack is at his wit's end.
But I am sure you have noticed his self-control is limited to Jack.
Instead of walking over to the horses and saying something nobody can hear, he says it as he turns his back to Jack. He says, "G*d damn.........(something)
Perhaps we know the rest. Perhaps we are the rest.
So if Ennis had been available in August this never would have come out? I was always amazed at how mad Jack got when Ennis said no August, according to the book and movie, they only met once or twice a year, so this year it would have been May, August and November?
I always felt that these painful words were said in anger and disappointment of not only being together in August, but like the punch Ennis dealt to Jack when they came off the mountain and they could not deal with the reality of having to leave the mountain early.
I do not think Jack was giving up on Ennis, just the night before he told him how much he missed him.
How often in our lives do we keep the status quo because we do not want to give up hope that things will be different?
So if Ennis had been available in August this never would have come out? I was always amazed at how mad Jack got when Ennis said no August, according to the book and movie, they only met once or twice a year, so this year it would have been May, August and November?
I always felt that these painful words were said in anger and disappointment of not only being together in August, but like the punch Ennis dealt to Jack when they came off the mountain and they could not deal with the reality of having to leave the mountain early.
I do not think Jack was giving up on Ennis, just the night before he told him how much he missed him.
How often in our lives do we keep the status quo because we do not want to give up hope that things will be different?
Hello mactwck. The time frame alluded to in the last meeting is a bit tricky. If we are to believe the screenplay dates, it could very well imply that it was November of NEXT YEAR that Ennis was proposing.
This is a tricky topic. I point you to an old thread with a number of interesting posts. It is entitled something like Timeline of the Last Scenes (I have not checked this in a while).
I can't believe that Ennis was meaning November of next year - no way could he have stood it if their next meeting wasn't going to be for a year and a half. I always thought their last meeting was earlier in the year than May, though - maybe February or March, just judging from the clothes they were wearing. I think when he says "it was hard enough getting this time, the trade off was August" that indicates that it's the same calendar year they're talking about.
I posted this on IMDB. Hope you enjoy it too:
Here goes after seeing the movie eight times, and reading the published version of the screenplay, certain year milestones are noted:
1963 - The year they meet, summer. After Brokeback, Ennis marries Alma the same year.
1964 - Ennis and Alma are married, and expecting their first child. The movie at the Drive-in is "Surf Party", from 1964.
1966 - Fourth of July when Ennis beats up the foul mouthed Biker. The announcer in the background clearly says Fourth of July, 1966. Same summer, Jack attempts to pick up Jimbo the Rodeo Clown, then meets Lureen.
1967 - Four years after the summer on Brokeback, Jack and Ennis reunite.
Flashback: 1952 - Ennis' father takes him and his brother to see the murdered body of Earl, the rancher. Ennis says he is 9 years old, which means he must have turned 20 later in the fall of 1963, after the summer on Brokeback, which makes sense since the book says he was "not yet twenty", which seems to imply "not yet twenty, but almost/soon will be".
1969 - The "Where's my Blue Parka?" scene. The screenplay is messed up here about dates. In the space of two pages the year changes from 1971 to 1969 to a scene with a wall calendar that says 1973! I think that 1969 is supposed to be the correct year, but then why would little Bobby need a tutor at age of only 2 or 3? In the movie though we are free to place it in any year we choose in a given late sixties, early 70's range.
1972 - The montage where Jack is letting bobby drive the tractor and Ennis is baling hay out the back of a truck
1973 - Ennis and Alma sit in their apartment on a Saturday night and watch an episode of "Kojack". Alma wants to go to the Church social, but Ennis dosesn't feel like hanging out with "..that fire and brimstone crowd."
1975 - Ennis and Alma divorce. The date is read by the judge. I believe it's in July. The 5th? (Correction: The date of their divorce is November 6th) Jack drives up to see Ennis, hoping this means they will now be able to live together.
1977 - Thanksgiving with Ennis at Alma and Monroe's, and at the Twist Household. You hear the year read by the announcer at the football game on television. The screenplay describes Bobby as being 10, which means he would have had to be two when he needed the tutor.
1978 - Jack and Ennis go to the Mountains again, "Aww go to hell Ennis Del Mar, you want to live your miserable *beep* life, go ahead..." Jack and Lureen meet Randall and LaShawn Malone, at a benefit dinner dance. Ennis meets Cassie.
1979 - Scene with Ennis, Cassie, and Alma Jr. at the bar. The screenplay describes Alma Jr. as 15 yrs,
1981/1983 - Jack and Ennis meet for the last time in 1981 (screenplay) or 1983 (book). In the book, Proulx says they go everywhere but back to Brokeback. In the movie it seems like they always return to Brokeback or we assume so. Cassie confronts Ennis in the Diner.
1982 - In the screenplay, this is the year Jack is killed, and Ennis has the phone coversation with Lureen. Ennis meets Jack's parents.
1984 - Final scenes in movie with Ennis and Alma Jr., the reversed shirts.
"You know it could be like this, just like this, always"
Black Hat White Hat
A bit cursory to the main topic, but here is the best summary from the Timeline Thread comparing the short story and screenplay.I posted this on IMDB. Hope you enjoy it too:
Here goes after seeing the movie eight times, and reading the published version of the screenplay, certain year milestones are noted:
1963 - The year they meet, summer. After Brokeback, Ennis marries Alma the same year.
1964 - Ennis and Alma are married, and expecting their first child. The movie at the Drive-in is "Surf Party", from 1964.
1966 - Fourth of July when Ennis beats up the foul mouthed Biker. The announcer in the background clearly says Fourth of July, 1966. Same summer, Jack attempts to pick up Jimbo the Rodeo Clown, then meets Lureen.
1967 - Four years after the summer on Brokeback, Jack and Ennis reunite.
Flashback: 1952 - Ennis' father takes him and his brother to see the murdered body of Earl, the rancher. Ennis says he is 9 years old, which means he must have turned 20 later in the fall of 1963, after the summer on Brokeback, which makes sense since the book says he was "not yet twenty", which seems to imply "not yet twenty, but almost/soon will be".
1969 - The "Where's my Blue Parka?" scene. The screenplay is messed up here about dates. In the space of two pages the year changes from 1971 to 1969 to a scene with a wall calendar that says 1973! I think that 1969 is supposed to be the correct year, but then why would little Bobby need a tutor at age of only 2 or 3? In the movie though we are free to place it in any year we choose in a given late sixties, early 70's range.
1972 - The montage where Jack is letting bobby drive the tractor and Ennis is baling hay out the back of a truck
1973 - Ennis and Alma sit in their apartment on a Saturday night and watch an episode of "Kojack". Alma wants to go to the Church social, but Ennis dosesn't feel like hanging out with "..that fire and brimstone crowd."
1975 - Ennis and Alma divorce. The date is read by the judge. I believe it's in July. The 5th? (Correction: The date of their divorce is November 6th) Jack drives up to see Ennis, hoping this means they will now be able to live together.
1977 - Thanksgiving with Ennis at Alma and Monroe's, and at the Twist Household. You hear the year read by the announcer at the football game on television. The screenplay describes Bobby as being 10, which means he would have had to be two when he needed the tutor.
1978 - Jack and Ennis go to the Mountains again, "Aww go to hell Ennis Del Mar, you want to live your miserable *beep* life, go ahead..." Jack and Lureen meet Randall and LaShawn Malone, at a benefit dinner dance. Ennis meets Cassie.
1979 - Scene with Ennis, Cassie, and Alma Jr. at the bar. The screenplay describes Alma Jr. as 15 yrs,
1981/1983 - Jack and Ennis meet for the last time in 1981 (screenplay) or 1983 (book). In the book, Proulx says they go everywhere but back to Brokeback. In the movie it seems like they always return to Brokeback or we assume so. Cassie confronts Ennis in the Diner.
1982 - In the screenplay, this is the year Jack is killed, and Ennis has the phone coversation with Lureen. Ennis meets Jack's parents.
1984 - Final scenes in movie with Ennis and Alma Jr., the reversed shirts.
"You know it could be like this, just like this, always"
Black Hat White Hat
Yes but Lureen says Jack was only 39 years old so we know it was 1983 because in 1963 he was 19 and on Brokeback with Ennis. I guess I always assumed that there last meeting was in May of 1983 like the short story says.
By the way, a fallout to our above conclusions is the following: Jack died in 1982 at the age of 39. This means that he was 20 years old (NOT 19) when he and Ennis met in the summer of 1963. Ennis was also probably 20 years old at the time of the first meeting.
It depends wether he was born in the beginning or in the end of the year...
There's so much irony in this line - there was never going to be any rest for the two of them, and only a sort of maimed one for Ennis. Dylan Thomas's wife wrote an autobiographical book called "Leftover Life to Kill" and that seems to me to be true of Ennis after Jack's death. "The rest" for him might involve knowing what he'd felt for Jack and being more attuned to his own emotions,but it also involved the permanent absece of the one person who gave his life meaning.
There's so much irony in this line - there was never going to be any rest for the two of them, and only a sort of maimed one for Ennis. Dylan Thomas's wife wrote an autobiographical book called "Leftover Life to Kill" and that seems to me to be true of Ennis after Jack's death. "The rest" for him might involve knowing what he'd felt for Jack and being more attuned to his own emotions,but it also involved the permanent absece of the one person who gave his life meaning.
Jack: Tell you what, we coulda had a good life together, fu**kn real good life, had us a place of our own, but you didn't want it, Ennis! So what we got now, is Brokeback Mountain! Everything’s built on that, that's all we got boy, fu**kn all! So I hope you know that if you don't ever know the rest!
Ennis: G*dammit...
Jack: You count the damn few times that we have been together in nearly twenty years, and you measure the short fu**kn leash that you keep me on and then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for wanting something I don't hardly never get!
Hmm... frankly, in a situation like that I am surprised that Jack didn't give up years ago, and sadly, much as it hurts to think it... I believe that Jack had given up. The fact that he was talking about another man at his parents house suggests that, while he truly does love Ennis and would do anything to be with him, he had perhaps finally accepted that he and Ennis would never be together and had decided to try to grab a bit of happiness where he could. That defeated, look of pure pain that he has on his face as Ennis drives away... I think he looks that way because his heart has been broken once again, and he has decided that it is time to give up.
::) Kinda going back to the original topic here...
I always felt that Jack's "I hope you know that if you don't ever know the rest" is basically his way of saying that he blames Ennis for making things the way they were... think about everything he said before that line...Quote
Jack: Tell you what, we coulda had a good life together, fu**kn real good life, had us a place of our own, but you didn't want it, Ennis! So what we got now, is Brokeback Mountain! Everything’s built on that, that's all we got boy, fu**kn all! So I hope you know that if you don't ever know the rest!
Ennis: G*dammit...
Jack: You count the damn few times that we have been together in nearly twenty years, and you measure the short fu**kn lease that you keep me on and then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for wanting something I don't hardly never get!
If you look at it this way, Ennis has just told him that he might kill him if he was to learn all about Mexico etc. and Jack is basically coming back and saying "You have only yourself to blame for driving me to Mexico... I wanted to make a life with you, and you didn't want me except on your terms."
In truth, Ennis was entirely unfair to Jack pretty much from the beginning of their after-reunion relationship. "Sure, I'll spend time with you and all... but only when it's convenient for me. So don't ever contact me in between, don’t ever complain or get upset about not being able to see me, don't ever just show up out of the blue, and don’t ever say things that even smack of your feelings for me because they make me uncomfortable and I won’t respond or return the sentiment in anyway… Oh… and by the way… don’t ever see any other men. Women are fine… but no men!”
Hmm... frankly, in a situation like that I am surprised that Jack didn't give up years ago, and sadly, much as it hurts to think it... I believe that Jack had given up. The fact that he was talking about another man at his parents house suggests that, while he truly does love Ennis and would do anything to be with him, he had perhaps finally accepted that he and Ennis would never be together and had decided to try to grab a bit of happiness where he could. That defeated, look of pure pain that he has on his face as Ennis drives away... I think he looks that way because his heart has been broken once again, and he has decided that it is time to give up.
If so, one can hardly blame him. :'(
(I am aware that I have pretty much just trashed Ennis into the ground... and I apologize if I have offended anyone. :-[ Truthfully I love Ennis and I can relate to his fear and anxiety... but at the same time, there are times during the movie when I want to grab him and shake him until his teeth rattle while yelling "You are such an IDIOT!!" :X)
:-[ Truthfully I love Ennis and I can relate to his fear and anxiety... but at the same time, there are times during the movie when I want to grab him and shake him until his teeth rattle while yelling "You are such an IDIOT!!" :X)
:-[ Truthfully I love Ennis and I can relate to his fear and anxiety... but at the same time, there are times during the movie when I want to grab him and shake him until his teeth rattle while yelling "You are such an IDIOT!!" :X)
You are not alone with this sentiment amtamburo.
:-[ Truthfully I love Ennis and I can relate to his fear and anxiety... but at the same time, there are times during the movie when I want to grab him and shake him until his teeth rattle while yelling "You are such an IDIOT!!" :X)
You are not alone with this sentiment amtamburo.
No you are not alone....but at the same time I just watched the love of my life drive away (just two short months ago) and I did not tell him how I felt because he is married. Life has a way of getting in the way of how we want things to go. I do not know how they did 20 years of goodbyes. My friend is coming back next week for a visit and I am so excited and dreading it at the same time. OT, but what do I do?
There's so much irony in this line - there was never going to be any rest for the two of them, and only a sort of maimed one for Ennis. Dylan Thomas's wife wrote an autobiographical book called "Leftover Life to Kill" and that seems to me to be true of Ennis after Jack's death. "The rest" for him might involve knowing what he'd felt for Jack and being more attuned to his own emotions,but it also involved the permanent absece of the one person who gave his life meaning.
If it's the real thing, love lasts - that's its glory and its agony.
QuoteIf it's the real thing, love lasts - that's its glory and its agony.
This is so true... however, I also believe (been there... done that) that love can be squashed and bent and mangled to the point that, even though the love is still there, it simply hurts to much to continue with it. I think that is what happened for Jack.
I believe that he still loved Ennis very much, but I think that he had finally realized that that love... the one he had put so much time, energy, tenderness, hope, pain and effort into... was never going to come to fruitation. I believe that although he would always love Ennis, and perhaps he might have even continued with their meetings for a time, he had decided that he needed to push that love aside a bit and perhaps explore other means of finding happiness... aka Randall.
Having been in that position, I know how heart rending and soul tearing giving up on someone that you love above all others can be. It leaves a scar that never truly heals and is easily made to bleed again and again. However, there does come a time when having your heart trounced over and over becomes so unbearable that you simply can't do it anymore!
Of course, that is me projecting my experiences onto Jack... and I could be totally off, but I can relate so deeply to Jack's pain and loss that I can't help but think that must have been how it was for him as well. :-[
I don't think Jack was planning to end things with Ennis. Also, in the story, Annie P. says after the fight, "nothing was ended, nothing resolved."
Just the night before Jack told Ennis "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Jack stilled loved Ennis, no matter what.
Jack hit a nerve with Ennis and Ennis retaliated (typical lover's spat)...and, Ennis' jealousy about what he imaged Jack MIGHT be doing when they were not together showed itself. Ennis didn't care if Jack was having an affair with a woman, but he was furious at the thought of Jack with another man!
I think Jack's line "if you don't never know the rest." was more like "even if you can't UNDERSTAND the rest." Jack told Ennis, "I'm not you." And, basically, I can't do what you do, this is not enough for me ("Never enough time, never enough")
And now I look the ss uses that image of the coat-hanger, bent out of shape then forced back almost into the one it had had, which implies that the relationship had to some degree been restored. And Jack would never, could never, give up on Ennis, because he was what completed him, and that's I think why Jack went looking, though futilely, for someone else, but would always be ready to return to Ennis given the opportunity.
Yes, I do think that he would have dropped everything to be with Ennis -- even in that last year.
He would have been there in November! Is this an article of faith?
Yes, I do think that he would have dropped everything to be with Ennis -- even in that last year.
He would have been there in November! Is this an article of faith?
I think Jack had already taken up with Randall. If what you say is true, then Jack would have been cheating on Randall just as he had cheated on Lureen.
I would like to think that he cheats to love as much as he cheats in love.
Jack wouldn't see it as cheating. He didn't love Randall, and I don't think he loved Lureen or she him. He loved Ennis, so if he could be with Ennis, he would. How can you resist love?
Jack wouldn't see it as cheating. He didn't love Randall, and I don't think he loved Lureen or she him. He loved Ennis, so if he could be with Ennis, he would. How can you resist love?
I do think we all agree that Ennis is Jack's true love (tiresome or trite as the phrase may be). I think it cruel for me to say this, but Jack was always left with "second best" as far as choices were concerned. This is why I find him so sympathetic. How many times in our own lives do we find ourselves dealing with compromises that never bring us the comfort of fulfillment, the sense of completeness...
:\'( :^^)
tpe, this strikes such a nerve; perhaps this is why so many of us are able to identify deeply with Jack. Especially as we add to our years and experience the realities of life, the choices we're forced to make that shortchange our desires. Lives half lived, what can be more heartbreaking?
Ennis responds to Jack's outburst by telling him "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this", but Jack could say the same back to Ennis. Jack's life only half lived when he could SEE his dream, practically taste it, almost (so very close) touch it ... but ... always just out of reach. All this is part of the "rest" Jack can't begin to give form to with mere words.
:\'( :^^)
tpe, this strikes such a nerve; perhaps this is why so many of us are able to identify deeply with Jack. Especially as we add to our years and experience the realities of life, the choices we're forced to make that shortchange our desires. Lives half lived, what can be more heartbreaking?
Ennis responds to Jack's outburst by telling him "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this", but Jack could say the same back to Ennis. Jack's life only half lived when he could SEE his dream, practically taste it, almost (so very close) touch it ... but ... always just out of reach. All this is part of the "rest" Jack can't begin to give form to with mere words.
MississaugaRed, I myself am not ashamed to admit that I have lived life half-way many times in the past. And yes, it is not out of keeping to admit that I sense I have not learned fully from experience. But that is the beauty of life, no? The ability to repeat one's mistakes and live the consequences of other people's wrong choices. This is so achingly human. I am glad for every mistake that informs me that I truly live.
You guys are good. Hit the nail on the head.
Jack would have done ANYTHING to have that sweet life with Ennis. Poor Ennis was too repressed to ever let that happen.
I too have lived my life half-way many times, and it is so very hard to "settle". There comes a time when you have to
move on for your own good. Gotta tell ya...... I don't know how Jack did it for 20 years.
Karen1129, this was the beauty and strength of Jack, as you say, that he counted his love worth the price of all the wounds it left on his soul. I can't imagine living that for 20 years, either ... and then to still have the grace to offer Ennis comfort at the end, even after the bitter truths they both let fly. Jack was the stuff of heroes, IMO. As tpe's beautiful words suggests, he represents that which makes us achingly human.
You guys are good. Hit the nail on the head.
Jack would have done ANYTHING to have that sweet life with Ennis. Poor Ennis was too repressed to ever let that happen.
I too have lived my life half-way many times, and it is so very hard to "settle". There comes a time when you have to
move on for your own good. Gotta tell ya...... I don't know how Jack did it for 20 years.
Jack knew the rest, and knew Ennis, deep down in the fibres of his being - he knew what he was involved in. He also knew, I think, that it was a compromise, a life half-fulfilled, half-lived - but that was what he had. He could try to find physical satisfaction elsewhere, but no more than that. The older one gets, the more one sees the compromises one has made through life, and many of us have been involved in situations where, like Jack, there was no ideal solution because we were prisoners of someone else's choices. That's partly what gives the movie such a resonance.
Jack knew the rest, and knew Ennis, deep down in the fibres of his being - he knew what he was involved in. He also knew, I think, that it was a compromise, a life half-fulfilled, half-lived - but that was what he had. He could try to find physical satisfaction elsewhere, but no more than that. The older one gets, the more one sees the compromises one has made through life, and many of us have been involved in situations where, like Jack, there was no ideal solution because we were prisoners of someone else's choices. That's partly what gives the movie such a resonance.
welshwitch: you speak the truth.
Jack knew the rest, and knew Ennis, deep down in the fibres of his being - he knew what he was involved in. He also knew, I think, that it was a compromise, a life half-fulfilled, half-lived - but that was what he had. He could try to find physical satisfaction elsewhere, but no more than that. The older one gets, the more one sees the compromises one has made through life, and many of us have been involved in situations where, like Jack, there was no ideal solution because we were prisoners of someone else's choices. That's partly what gives the movie such a resonance.
Here, here! :) Great observation on life, for us and them. :(
Those who adapt, survive. Those who learn to bend can endure the wind until it changes.
After reading your postings, welshwitch and tpe, it seems to me that in some way, though Jack died with his poor body broken there by the roadside, his spirit was even then resilient. It was Ennis who was perhaps the more broken in the end, body intact but spirit horribly wounded; learning to bend only after Jack was taken from him - when he starts to understand "the rest". May be completely off the mark with that, but you've both given me much to muse on ... as usual. Thank you! ^f^Quote
MississaugaRed, I do think you are on the mark. Ennis, in the end, is both saved and cursed by the love he shared with Jack. He came in wounded, to be sure, but he let it fester for 20 years until it was too late to attain any semblance of a fix.
Jack's spirit may have been broken by Ennis's refusal to share a life with him, and he dies never fully knowing that Ennis did love him deeply. This is his great tragedy.
For Ennis, it is ironic that, indeed, he will never know the rest. At this point, it is no longer limited to the notion of Jack's infidelities. It becomes an ironic commentary to Ennis never fully knowing the joy of love selflessly and wholeheartedly shared. This is his great tragedy.
Indeed, he shall never know the rest.
Well said Miss-Red and TPE. Of course I am sitting here all teary again. :\'(
Now I've gone off on to another track entirely, to the idea of rest in the sense of death or peace, which even Jack's ashes didn't find and which I don;t think ennis's will either. No-one to ask for them to be granted eternal rest, and no-one to sing a requiem.
"Thaw, and resolve itself into a dew"?
Thomas, you're a romantic. You should have been a poet.
To get back to the cheating part....
I love jack and I do feel his pain, but it is not that hard to be faithful to someone. If he truely loved Ennis in a way that they were soulmate he would not have gone looking for other men. I know this will not be a popular opinion, but it is how I feel. Even when things were bad his love for Ennis did not stop him from looking? Remember 20 years of somethings are better than nothing. Damn you Jack, I swear.....
I would even venture to say that I love Jack Twist because of this failing. So many of us relate to this. It is all too human: the need to find surrogates when the desire goes unfulfilled. Faithfulness, even in heterosexual marriages, is always harder without physical proximity. It is certainly one important reason why couples have children -- to solidify a bond in the form of flesh and blood intermingled.
I love the characters precisely for their failings. These failings -- they are the power and the glory of BBM. The story would be banal without it. It reminds us that human relationships are never so simple. People are never so simple. And love can be so complex by virtue of its inherent simplicity.
tpe, so true ... this was no "Hollywood" love story. It felt like we were watching real people, real lives unfold before our eyes; it felt intimate. And it has made almost everything else I've seen before or since seem banal by comparison. A new pinnacle has been reached with BBM in terms of connection between story-tellers and story-viewers.
Jack and Ennis did not lead fairy-tale perfect lives, together or apart. If we can know that, and still love them, it's possible to love ourselves in the face of our own failings. It was possible for them to love each other even after it became apparent that "the rest" included their failings; those failings which had lead them to this place and this moment of revelation.
If BBM reads as real-life (which to me it does) and is considered a masterpiece, then I guess life itself is a masterpiece. We just rarely see it portrayed as such. BBM is a true gift.
And because like all the great fictional characters they are imperfect, damaged, the golden bowl with its flaw.
And because like all the great fictional characters they are imperfect, damaged, the golden bowl with its flaw.
"The golden bowl--as it WAS to have been." And Maggie dwelt musingly on this obscured figure. "The bowl with all our happiness in it. The bowl without the crack."
Henry James -- 'The Golden Bowl'
And because like all the great fictional characters they are imperfect, damaged, the golden bowl with its flaw.
"The golden bowl--as it WAS to have been." And Maggie dwelt musingly on this obscured figure. "The bowl with all our happiness in it. The bowl without the crack."
Henry James -- 'The Golden Bowl'
"Lest the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the golden bowl be broken at the cistern..." (Ecclesiastes)
To get back to the cheating part....
I love jack and I do feel his pain, but it is not that hard to be faithful to someone. If he truely loved Ennis in a way that they were soulmate he would not have gone looking for other men. I know this will not be a popular opinion, but it is how I feel. Even when things were bad his love for Ennis did not stop him from looking? Remember 20 years of somethings are better than nothing. Damn you Jack, I swear.....
Well, you got a friend here mactwck. The first time I heard Jack say he couldn't make it in a couple of high-altitude f**ks a year, I burst into laughter in the theater. I then mentioned it here. It was not a popular stand. What about people who have never had it? What about soldiers who go away from home for a year at a time, or longer. Are they to be unfaithful? Don't think I am condemning Jack for his unfaithfulness but I sure don't understand it.
Having said that, I suppose that when there is no commitment from both parties, there is no reason to be faithful. I may love Jake Gyllenhaal but until he made a commitment to me, why be faithful?
I love the golden bowl metaphor here--so appropriate.
I think it's important for us, too, to see Jack's imperfections. After reading the many threads here over the past 5 months, I feel like Ennis sometimes gets more of the blame than he maybe deserves. He wasn't perfect, but neither was Jack. They were totally human, with human frailties--and that's why we love them, and why they love each other, so much.
On a more personal note, I do wish that Jack hadn't been unfaithful to Ennis--but I also wish Ennis had been willing to try a life together with Jack. So it goes.
I would even venture to say that I love Jack Twist because of this failing. So many of us relate to this. It is all too human: the need to find surrogates when the desire goes unfulfilled. Faithfulness, even in heterosexual marriages, is always harder without physical proximity. It is certainly one important reason why couples have children -- to solidify a bond in the form of flesh and blood intermingled.
I love the characters precisely for their failings. These failings -- they are the power and the glory of BBM. The story would be banal without it. It reminds us that human relationships are never so simple. People are never so simple. And love can be so complex by virtue of its inherent simplicity.
tpe, so true ... this was no "Hollywood" love story. It felt like we were watching real people, real lives unfold before our eyes; it felt intimate. And it has made almost everything else I've seen before or since seem banal by comparison. A new pinnacle has been reached with BBM in terms of connection between story-tellers and story-viewers.
Jack and Ennis did not lead fairy-tale perfect lives, together or apart. If we can know that, and still love them, it's possible to love ourselves in the face of our own failings. It was possible for them to love each other even after it became apparent that "the rest" included their failings; those failings which had lead them to this place and this moment of revelation.
If BBM reads as real-life (which to me it does) and is considered a masterpiece, then I guess life itself is a masterpiece. We just rarely see it portrayed as such. BBM is a true gift.
"To look life in the face, always, to look life in the face and to know it for what it is"
That's why I loved BBM so much.
Ennis never gave Jack any reason to believe they would ever be in a committed relationship.
Jack wanted one. Jack's needs were indeed more than Ennis's. He was satisfied with
a couple of high altitude f...ks a couple of times a years.
Ennis never gave Jack any reason to believe they would ever be in a committed relationship.
Jack wanted one. Jack's needs were indeed more than Ennis's. He was satisfied with
a couple of high altitude f...ks a couple of times a years.
I'm not sure Jack's needs were more than Ennis's, or that Ennis was satisfied with a couple of high altitude f**ks a couple of times a year. I'm sure Ennis wanted more, but he was too inhibited and repressed to act on his wanting. They were different in character. Jack expressed his frustration and his needs, while Ennis held everything inside. While Jack went to Mexico, Ennis probably wrang himself up constantly thinking about Jack but never said a word about it, it wasn't in his character to admit how much he wanted and needed Jack. He had all kinds of psychological reasons to hold back, but it doesn't mean he didn't feel just as strong.
Carlos_H82, when you said:
Ennis and Jack were completely different in their needs...
you were not really OOT. What you said is at the root of "all the rest".
What Ennis and Jack certainly did not realize then was that "all the rest" meant everything they did not want to face up to -- all the needs one had that the other could have provided. Their needs are indeed different. But the tragedy is one and the same.
which hits you more because we were unable to do anything we just saw them and were unable to help them
which hits you more because we were unable to do anything we just saw them and were unable to help them
How many times in that last quarrel did we not just feel that we HAD to intervene. I certainly did. That is I think why I am so emotionally affected by that one scene. It is because we know that we are powerless to help them.
which hits you more because we were unable to do anything we just saw them and were unable to help them
How many times in that last quarrel did we not just feel that we HAD to intervene. I certainly did. That is I think why I am so emotionally affected by that one scene. It is because we know that we are powerless to help them.
sad but true we are just watching them hurting each other with those lines :\'( :\'( :\'( even thogh we knew they love each other!
Reading all those mesmerizing interpretations is one of the resons I love to be here %)
<^(
The more I look at those lines, the same ones in both the ss and the script, the more I don't understand them. When Jack says, " if you don't never know the rest" is he implying that he hopes Ennis never will understand all the other things about their relationship, because there's no point in his doing so now? In other words, is he saying this is the end, he's said all he can and there's no way Ennis is going to change so there's no point in going on?
I also think, like others have said before me, that "the rest" is not just one spesific thing but a number of things. The way I understand it, Jack is saying "I hope you know that" - that all we have is Brokeback mountain and we have nothing beyond that, because you wouldn't commit to our love and you wouldn't come and live with me, so I hope you know that this situation is your fault, "if you don't never know the rest" - if you never know how much I love you, how much I need you, if you never know how much I miss you and how much it hurts, and how bad it gets, to the point that I seek relief in the arms of other men just because I can't be with you... There are a lot of things that Ennis doesn't know or realise until it's too late.
I read this at lunchtime-yet another day of crying at my desk! :'(
The rest is so many things to me- much of which has already been expressed so beautifully by everyone here.
The rest is the missed opportunities and a love squandered due to Ennis' fear and reluctance to accept the truth about himself and ultimately their relationship.
I can only imagine that each time Jack's suggestions were rebuffed that it killed Jack a little more each time and that it was like being hit with a tire iron emotionally.
The rest is the love Jack has for Ennis and him being fed up with only feeling truly alive when Ennis sees fit. Jack put his hopes and dreams on the backburner for 20 years. He is not able to express what is truly in his heart for fear that he would scare Ennis off. The sacrifices and concessions that Jack has made over the years to keep the relationship going. That Jack would have given up everything for a life with Ennis
The rest is that Ennis will only be with Jack hidden away- Jack feeling Ennis is ashamed of him and the truth about what he represents in his life.
"What we got now is BBM"- all we have is what could have been- everything is built on trying to recapture that perfect summer of 1963. The rest: "I've been doing everything in my power to keep that alive and you've thrown up roadblocks every step of the way. But no matter how many times you've rejected me, I could never stop loving you." "But you didn't want it Ennis"- You didn't want to accept the truth. You didn't want it to be me."
Ennis could no longer deny "the rest" when he found those shirts.
[quoteThe rest is the love Jack has for Ennis and him being fed up with only feeling truly alive when Ennis sees fit. Jack put his hopes and dreams on the backburner for 20 years. He is not able to express what is truly in his heart for fear that he would scare Ennis off. The sacrifices and concessions that Jack has made over the years to keep the relationship going. That Jack would have given up everything for a life with EnnisQuote
Even though it's not in the original story, when Ennis, sobbing, tells Jack, "It's because a you Jack that I'm like this; I'm nobody, nowhere!" , I can see in Ennis' convoluted/cramped vision of their relationship, that he's lived life on the edge ever since the first reunion. Ennis has taken only fleeting and temporary, low-paying jobs which he could quit or take off at a moment's notice whenever an opportunity to be with Jack appeared. He moved willingly into Riverton, into an apartment, so he could leave anytime; something he couldn't do on a ranch, leaving only Alma and the girls. It seems to me Ennis sacrificed any and all financial security just to be ready to be with Jack on the Mountain. Perhaps Ennis' way of showing "love" for Jack was clumsy and tunnel-visioned, but his utter devotion to Jack seems apparent to me. The tragedy of the entire relationship was Ennis' deathly fear of being discovered, and his fear of relocating somewhere else out of Wyoming, something Jack didn't care about overmuch. The two dear, tragic men were never able to reconcile themselves to any sort of happy medium for a fulfilling life together.
It's heartbreaking to think how differently things might have tirned out for Jack and Ennis if they had met in 1993. But I supposed that would only would have opened up many other cans of worms.
:-\I withdraw my speculation.
It's heartbreaking to think how differently things might have tirned out for Jack and Ennis if they had met in 1993. But I supposed that would only would have opened up many other cans of worms.
:-\I withdraw my speculation.
That's very funny -- I just now started on that train of thought myself and started writing about it, in my previous reply to your previous post, but deleted it -- it gets too complicated, the what-if's... I'm withdrawing my speculation also. ;)
kathy
I am sure there would have been sharp differences. But sometimes I do wonder. After all, Matthew Sheppard was murdered in 1997...
I am sure there would have been sharp differences. But sometimes I do wonder. After all, Matthew Sheppard was murdered in 1997...
Just two minor corrections TPE.:\'( Matthew Shepard died at 12:53am on October 12, 1998. :\'((https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FMatthewShepardFoundation001.jpg&hash=9fb63418d2cfdc2c9536c068ca6bd5f572c94a31)http://www.matthewshepard.org/index.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard
Why the world is so cruel? :\'( :\'(
I am sure there would have been sharp differences. But sometimes I do wonder. After all, Matthew Sheppard was murdered in 1997...
Just two minor corrections TPE.:'( Matthew Shepard died at 12:53am on October 12, 1998. :'((https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FMatthewShepardFoundation001.jpg&hash=9fb63418d2cfdc2c9536c068ca6bd5f572c94a31)http://www.matthewshepard.org/index.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard"His face was caked with blood, except where it had been partially washed clean by tears."
Why the world is so cruel? :'( :'(
I am just glad that it is not all cruel.
So long as there are people willing to know the rest, there is hope.
We can't live without a hope for a better tomorrow..
I am sure there would have been sharp differences. But sometimes I do wonder. After all, Matthew Sheppard was murdered in 1997...
Just two minor corrections TPE.:\'( Matthew Shepard died at 12:53am on October 12, 1998. :\'((https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe359%2FPatriotOne%2FMatthewShepardFoundation001.jpg&hash=9fb63418d2cfdc2c9536c068ca6bd5f572c94a31)http://www.matthewshepard.org/index.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard"His face was caked with blood, except where it had been partially washed clean by tears."
Hello, first time here nice to know. I'm not alone in this fanatic state. loved the movie. In this scene I feel that Jack has finally been He needs, wants, and deserves more Ennis may not ever know the rest but he's had 20 years to know enough . sorry for rambling on.
Hello, first time here nice to know. I'm not alone in this fanatic state. loved the movie. In this scene I feel that Jack has finally been He needs, wants, and deserves more Ennis may not ever know the rest but he's had 20 years to know enough . sorry for rambling on.Hi ! aintfoolin!! ^f^
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbestsmileys.com%2Fwelcome%2F18.gif&hash=babb40207fd64fcb25eaefaf5712904af99468c2)
You absolutely right!!
Never enough time..never enough... :(
But don't be shy you can rambling on,your in the right place for it O0
All through the movie Ennis has been shown to be literally and metaphorically enclosed, cut off, limited. This line seems to be Jack's acknowledgement that Ennis is never going to break free of what keeps him from changing, that he will always be imprisoned by his past experiences, that the unsatisfactory situation isn't something that will change eventually.
Even if he never knows "the rest" it will always be ther in Ennis's mind don't you think? The way Ennis compartmentalizes everything I think that Jack admitting to Mexico opened up a whole can of worms for him. There's so much going on with Ennis at this point that the thought of losing Jack for goodis just too much for him to take.Sad.
Hey, there, aintfoolin .. ^f^
Your post has me walking down memory lane, too. I remember my early days discussing every nuance of BBM too. Never get tired of seeing new fans experience all the excitement of exploring what might or might not have been. I learned so much about the implications of everything from the comments of others, and I can't say enough good things about all the BBM fans who post here. <^(
Randall has been a source of much contension, considering how brief his appearance in the film was. Ironic, isn't it, the weight he carried was/is disproportionate to his time in the light, but there it is. :)
Like you, aintfoolin, I always felt that Randall was a significant part of "the rest". Mostly because I think this was the time for Jack when he stepped over a new boundary, another blow to his relationship with Ennis. I'm awed everytime I see the look on Jack's face, that moment on the bench outside the party when Randall suggests that he and Jack get together, "do a little fishin'". This is different, it's a whole other step away from Ennis, beyond an anonymous encounter into the realm of "real" people. I always felt that this moment really broke Jack's heart. If he does this (which it is heavily implied he does), it's one more step away from his dreams of a life with Ennis; one more admission that what he most dearly dreams of isn't within his grasp.
Anyway, I think that the start of Jack's relationship with Randall was one of those watershed moments, one that impacted him through the following years and weighted heavy on his mind when he was with Ennis; "all the rest", that he likely dreaded and wanted Ennis to know, maybe. :-\\
Was Ennis really working under the illusion that Jack was his and his alone? What a shot in the gut when he finally understood Jack was not like him. And how close Ennis wanted to hurt him, because of it.
"If you don't never know the rest", Ennis had to understand what it was Jack was telling him. To understand your lover, you have to understand your lover's nature. Jack's nature was sensual, open, loving, what did he think drew him to Jack. Did he really think that a man like Jack could be satisfied with a couple of High Altitude F#@Ks once or twice a year. Jack was not him.
Jack never totally understood the pain Ennis himself was going through, and Ennis not understanding how much Jack needed him. So there was Randall a factor that could have brought Jack and Ennis finally together, or rip them apart. Jack not outright mentioning it was the unknown.
I don't think he doesn't want Ennis to know the rest and to understand all the things about their relationship, but I think he realize that Ennis is not willing to know, and can't deal with all these truths. whether it's the good stuff (like how deeply and totally Jack loves him) or the bad stuff (Jack having sex with other men), Ennis refuses to recognize all that. Saying "all these things I don't know could get you killed if I come to know them", is actually a way to say "I don't wanna hear it and I don't wanna know". So I thought jack meant to say, I hope you know that because of your stubborness and your refusal the only thing we got left now is this mountain, and I hope you know this one truth even if you can't accept all the others... and I don't think he meant this is the end, because after that he said "I wish I knew how to quit you" and by that admitted that he can't quit Ennis, and that this thing will never be over...
Well, you got a friend here mactwck. The first time I heard Jack say he couldn't make it in a couple of high-altitude f**ks a year, I burst into laughter in the theater. I then mentioned it here. It was not a popular stand. What about people who have never had it? What about soldiers who go away from home for a year at a time, or longer. Are they to be unfaithful? Don't think I am condemning Jack for his unfaithfulness but I sure don't understand it.
Having said that, I suppose that when there is no commitment from both parties, there is no reason to be faithful. I may love Jake Gyllenhaal but until he made a commitment to me, why be faithful?
Ennis saying those words tells me he knew or suspected Jack was cheating in some way. Are you saying that Ennis just lied to himself about it? Put it away so as not to beleive it could be true? He did ask Jack if he'd been to Mexico. Was he not jeaulous? or upset that Jack confirmed his worst fears?
Hello all,
sorry I haven't posted in a while, but I haven't forgotten the good memories from our get-together in London last December!
I find the discussion on this thread very interesting. I agree with most of the views posted here.
I think "the rest" Jack is hinting at is one of those expressions that deep down we know, or we think we know, what they might mean, but somehow they elude our conscious thought, especially as our attention as viewers is trying to follow the painful argument the two men are sharing in their last meeting together.
I agree with stacp, who said Ennis and Jack have not moved beyond this "thing" they had on BBM. I've always felt that Ennis, much more than Jack, has been living all those years in his own fantasy world, where the summer spent on BBM represented that ideal he was trying to re-create every time he had a reunion with Jack once or twice a year. As we know, Jack had moved on, he was restless and more adventurous to start with, and never lingered too much on his memories of BBM to keep him going. He wanted a life, a real life, with Ennis, not to relive a fantasy. And I think "the rest" he's alluding to might be referring to Jack's realisation/acceptance he's gay, something he knows Ennis will never face up to and never accept.
Ennis might have suspected Jack was being unfaithful to him, but again he never faced up to the fact that Jack might have wanted much more from their relationship than he was prepared to give.
So many unspoken truths for so many years between them... it's painful to see them bubbling on the surface at their last meeting.
I also think that "the rest" alludes to the amount of unspoken suffering, humiliation and bitter disappointments Jack went through for the past 16 years, that Ennis never allowed himself to see, and that will hit him with a ton of bricks when he will finally discover the shirts hidden in the closet.
In the film the viewer knows more about what Jack went through because his character has been fleshed out more in the film than it was in the short story.
In the story, most of the events are told/seen from Ennis' POV and both Ennis and the reader are hit by the force of Jack's feelings only at the end of the short story, with the 'dozy embrace' (told from Jack's POV) and obviously the discovery of the shirts.
Wonderful point of view. Most especially the pasaage in boldface. And it makes sense with what Jack said before this: about BBM being all that they got and that Ennis should at least know that, even if he would never know all the rest that he had in his heart for Ennis.
Thank you, tpe.
It's amazing how many subtleties we can still find out after so many months since the film came out.
If he was going to give up his dream, he was going to make sure Ennis knew why. This was one challenge Ennis could not excuse or rationalize away. Game over . Jack had played long enough. Can't blame him after all this time. Just a thought.
This is the thread of my very first post here on ennisjack. com, and i am just as fascinated now by this story as then .Thanks to all of you here I am truly enlightened to much .
...
Ennis never heard of Randall until after Jack's death. Mr. Twist said " some ranch neighbor", not his wife. The idea that Jack's parents knew about Randall and Ennis did'nt says to him that Jack was more far gone in his frustration over the whole thing than Ennis ever realized. Jack was already letting go of his sweet life dream with Ennis. It was hard on both of them. I wonder at times had had Jack revealed Randall's existence during this confrontation. What would Ennis's reaction be then? Could Randall have been a catylist? Loosing Jack to another man? A real live threat to his relationship with Jack.
...
Some say that Randall's significance is nil, but I respectfully disagree, He was a big part of "the rest". MO
Great post aintfoolin. I agree about the power of this scene- this is where you just feel the complete weight of 20 years come crashing down.
These last pages of this thread are giving me PBS bad. This scene juxtaposed with the DE, show just what you said. Breaks my heart...
kathy
None of us, be we gay or str8 can ever feel the emotion these two men had to go through. That is the power of this story. We live in a time and a world so removed from what their's was. I grew up in the 60's but lived in an environment that was ready to move on, reluctantly to be sure, but at least it moved. Jack and Ennis had no idea the world would change and so were forced to believe that what they had, the love they had, would always be rejected. For some it is still the same. :\'(
But Jack could find the power inside him to overcome those fears. He was really willing to take that chance, that risk, and make a life with Ennis despite the fears, while Ennis remained a prisoner of his fears his whole life. Why is that? was Jack more brave, or more desperate? more optimistic, a dreamer? or naive, as Ennis would probably think? Jack had crossed some barrier that Ennis could never get over, Ennis's fears had killed their chances of a future together long before the tire irons did.
But Jack could find the power inside him to overcome those fears. He was really willing to take that chance, that risk, and make a life with Ennis despite the fears, while Ennis remained a prisoner of his fears his whole life. Why is that? was Jack more brave, or more desperate? more optimistic, a dreamer? or naive, as Ennis would probably think? Jack had crossed some barrier that Ennis could never get over, Ennis's fears had killed their chances of a future together long before the tire irons did.
Interesting question, Kathy. IMO it was "okay" to see other women- no breach of the "rules", so to speak. I agree that if Jack had told Ennis about Randall it would have been a catalyst but I think Jack was afraid that that could spell the end. I think that Ennis was content in thinking that they were only "queer" with each other- that "this thing" was just something they did.
Most interesting, aintfoolin. If Jack had told Ennis about Randall, I do believe that may have been the catalyst for Ennis. He was willing to live with Jack messing around, but not being with someone in a more meaningful relationship. Why didn't Jack tell him about Randall, I wonder. He just kept hoping, every time he and Ennis met, that that would be the time Ennis would finally say okay, I am ready for that sweet life with you...
kathy
I feel that Jack had *been around* more, He had seen, perhaps while on the rodeo circuit a more open view of society. Learned bigger lessons already. Maybe he'd seen people with what he considered worst problems than this or maybe the same problem as this, who knows? Perhaps he had a more restsored faith in society, especially after he married Lureen and all the social obligations entailed in that adventure. After growing up isolated, and rejected perhaps Jack saw a bigger picture of the world and thought in terms of this. He saw more than the close-minded , isolated small towns of Wyoming. Ennis never ventured from the handle of the coffee pot.Makes a difference.
He's referring to the fact that Ennis only wants to confine his love to the mountain mettings Brokeback and the others as well rather than having the rich and full life they could have had together. Jack was trying to make him see that he loved him to the very core of his being, and if it was necessary to let him go to make him realize this he would make the sacrifice.
Jack did sort of told him -- in an oblique way, I admit. The fact that he follows the oblique confession with the heart-rending "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" looks to me that he was desperately crying out to Ennis. It was so sad. I guess a part of Jack tried to make Ennis see the rest, but I think it may have been a fear of hurting Ennis (and himself, btw) that made him couch it in a language seemingly opaque and roundabout...
This just breaks my heart. I believe we the viewers can just almost see what is in Jack's mind during those moments, but as you said, he is not saying things outright. Ennis maybe doesn't know how to express his feelings well in words, but Jack has his fears and doesn't say his feelings, either; he sometimes must feel he has to walk on eggshells with Ennis. That is so sad...
kathy
Isn't this the classic argument between lovers, "not enough time", "I gotta work". But this magnified a hundred times because these lovers see each other only a couple of times a year.
So the fight between them was on. Years were going by quicker for them. Middle age now, it wasn't like they were nineteen years old, and look down from the mountain like the world was theirs and no one could touch them. Their world was getting smaller, and time is passing them by.
And if Ennis didn't know the rest he knew this, "he didn't want a life with Jack", and Jack knew it and Jack let him know he knew it. So Ennis wants to kill him because of the lovers Jack may have had. This was too much to ask in Jack's way of thinking.
Isn't this the classic argument between lovers, "not enough time", "I gotta work". But this magnified a hundred times because these lovers see each other only a couple of times a year.
So the fight between them was on. Years were going by quicker for them. Middle age now, it wasn't like they were nineteen years old, and look down from the mountain like the world was theirs and no one could touch them. Their world was getting smaller, and time is passing them by.
And if Ennis didn't know the rest he knew this, "he didn't want a life with Jack", and Jack knew it and Jack let him know he knew it. So Ennis wants to kill him because of the lovers Jack may have had. This was too much to ask in Jack's way of thinking.
MG, I certainly share your passion concerning this, but I must respectfully disagree that Ennis did'nt want a life with Jack. he wanted Jack in his life but could'nt bring himself to live with him. Ennis can in a sense be described as a walking contradiction. He is in denial about his sexuality, and everything is built on that to use Jack's wording,yet he happily meets Jack like clockwork for many years. We must ask what each one was personally getting out of this relationship?
How and where they meet goes to Ennis's state of fear of discovery.
I think at some point, during this confrontation, the conversation becomes divided, What I mean by this is that about the time Ennis reveals the change in plans, Jack slams the truck door and says: " You've had a week to say a little somethin about this" , and imo opinion, Jack was feeling Ennis had somehow manipulated the timing of the revelation. Jack's only hope and solace being he would see Ennis in Aug, sooner than later and suddenly his hope for this was snatched away.
Ennis had seen this frustrated angry mood from Jack before, only this time it was'nt Aguirre's rules that had Jack going, it was directed at him. At this point Jack was dealing with the *big picture" of what was happening as Ennis continued to speak in terms of this one narrowed down incident. Tried to make some sense out out all of it. As Ennis tried to calm Jack pleading with him to "lighten up" on him and promises of future outings at Don Wroe's cabin etc, the camera angle at this juncture shows Jack was dealing with the cumulative effect of Ennis's refusals, saying " there's never enough time, never enough".
...
Then , Ennis goes on to reveal that he had struck a deal of some kind with his employer to get away this time and it was'nt easy doing so ...but he did it anyway. This shows that Ennis WANTED Jack in his life and really needed him there, but getting away to see him was becoming difficult. " In the beginning I just quit the job." I" I can't quit this one."
Jack was not in the best of moods here to begin with, having to part with Ennis after their week together. " Why are we always in the friggin cold "? means why do we always have to be as if were still on Brokeback as Ennis was indeed in a sense, as if a change in location would snap Ennis out of his fear and denial. Jack's patience had worn thin.
Lays all his frustrations out to Ennis. In other words . He was tired of pulling this load seemimgly alone.
When Ennis finally breaks down and says he can't take the pressure anymore, Jack comforts him still as Ennis desperatly tries to hold on to the one person he cannot live without. Though complicated and outwardly contradictary, at times ,Jack sees through to Ennis's heart and finds despite everything ,he still owns it, but for both their sakes he must let go.
In the DE Ennis rides away with a promise to "see Jack in the morning" In present no such promise is made as again ,Ennis rides away. Tragic. MO
Hi Aintfoolin,
Great post I've been reading and rereading it gives me a lot to think about. My only question is the "life" aspect of it. Ennis always had Jack in his life, but not a life with Jack. Isn't there a difference? Isn't the tug-a-war with both men is concerning exactly that point.
Jack's frustration, his need was more than just being with Ennis a few times a years, and whether Ennis wanted it deep down inside is something Jack was unaware of. All he saw, all he felt was Ennis drifting away. He can see the Pope easier than it was to see Ennis. In other words, "why are you making it so hard for me".
Jack put in his time with Ennis, almost twenty years, he played by Ennis's rules, he did as he was ask, and its getting him no closer to Ennis.
We forget sometimes of how all this effects Jack. We can understand Ennis's POV, but what about Jack's. Lets go back to the morning after Jack's confession of how much he missed Ennis and how difficult it was for him. In the morning when they were to say good bye, Jack was in foul mood to begin with, leaving Ennis was getting to be more difficult for him. Ennis knew the kind of mood Jack was that morning and reason passing understanding why he chose that moment to tell Jack the change in plans is up for discussion.
You can tell Ennis was nervous, biting his fingers nails, the cautious look he gave to Jack. He knew how Jack would react. Ennis mistake was he thinking logically and Jack at that point was running on pure emotions, and when your lover feels slighted, or being taken for granted, watch out, they will tell you things you never knew, or if you did know you were hearing it in words.
When Ennis pleads to Jack to lighten up on him as if he was alone is this relationship, and Jack should understand. Well if anyone who's ever been in relationship where your lover said "hey look, give me a break" is really asking for it with both barrels. And Jack doesn't disappoint, he let Ennis have it.
You see Jack was speaking of something higher than just the work a day world of Ennis Del Mar. He wanted to know where he stood, who he was to him, and the fact quiting him was something he actually wished for. This pushed Ennis to his breakdown, and broke him down to him being more honest with Jack than ever before, the reins were slipping, and he needed Jack's understanding. This a twenty year love affair and the cracks were showing.
IMO: Jack gets lost in translation sometimes, when all he does is love Ennis, and always did.
MG, I've wondered often if Jack could have explored more of his options, such as moving within closer proximity to Ennis. Maybe not right next door but within an area close enough that he could see Ennis whenever he wanted. Part of the problem imo is the long distance between them. This would allow him to work on Ennis gradually and get what he wanted out of him eventually.
Maybe it would'nt be the sweet life on the ranch that Jack wanted , but as Randall handled this advantage discreetly, of living closer to Jack, so could Ennis have it.
Ennis must be constantly coaxed and prompted by Jack to take such a big step of actually co-habitating. Living closer would narrow Ennis's option of saying no imo. Ennis was'nt going anywhere and a constant barrage of Jack on his doorstep? What could Ennis do except accept it. He cannot stop Jack from living whereever he wanted right?I think having Jack near would grow on Ennis and eventually cause him to accept seeing Jack every weekend or more often if it pleases him, leading up to something more permanent perhaps. It's a compromise I know but at least Jack would'nt have to live this nightmare of frustrated wishing , hoping and assuming. Ennis wanted Jack in his life. Perhaps this scenario would go a long way in convincing Ennis of how much Jack wanted him in his.Just a thought.
MG, I've wondered often if Jack could have explored more of his options, such as moving within closer proximity to Ennis. Maybe not right next door but within an area close enough that he could see Ennis whenever he wanted. Part of the problem imo is the long distance between them. This would allow him to work on Ennis gradually and get what he wanted out of him eventually.
Maybe it would'nt be the sweet life on the ranch that Jack wanted , but as Randall handled this advantage discreetly, of living closer to Jack, so could Ennis have it.
Ennis must be constantly coaxed and prompted by Jack to take such a big step of actually co-habitating. Living closer would narrow Ennis's option of saying no imo. Ennis was'nt going anywhere and a constant barrage of Jack on his doorstep? What could Ennis do except accept it. He cannot stop Jack from living whereever he wanted right?I think having Jack near would grow on Ennis and eventually cause him to accept seeing Jack every weekend or more often if it pleases him, leading up to something more permanent perhaps. It's a compromise I know but at least Jack would'nt have to live this nightmare of frustrated wishing , hoping and assuming. Ennis wanted Jack in his life. Perhaps this scenario would go a long way in convincing Ennis of how much Jack wanted him in his.Just a thought.
I think that Jack understood that Ennis would never come to terms with their relationship, no matter where he lived. It was the thing that was tearing him apart, even after all the years and the empty liasons he had been through. We are looking at an American tragedy here friends, men who can't give vent to their real emotions, no matter how powerful they are.
I wonder too that why doesn't Jack just pick and leave Texas, live closer to Ennis if not live with him, but be nearer to him. One thing Jack never did was force Ennis's hand, moving closer to him would have done just that force his hand, and Jack wanted Ennis to accept the idea of a life together fully, openly, wantingly, like they accepted each other SNIT.
Just my thoughts.
I think that Jack understood that Ennis would never come to terms with their relationship, no matter where he lived. It was the thing that was tearing him apart, even after all the years and the empty liasons he had been through. We are looking at an American tragedy here friends, men who can't give vent to their real emotions, no matter how powerful they are.
If they lived nearer, it wouldn't work, IMO. Ennis couldn't compartmentalize it if Jack were anywhere within easy reach, and Jack couldn't bear seeing him in a casual way - look at how much they evidently want to kiss when the girls are there in the scene after the divorce. There's too much emotion crackling between them; sure, if they were together all the time it would eventually die down, as it would be bound to do, but long before that they'd have given themselves away, which is of course what Ennis is afraid of - look at the way he watches the guy who drives past in the pickup when he and Jack are doing no more than talking.Ennis at least can ONLY live a sham life because Jack is far away - no way he could keep up the act with Jack appearing regularly, or even knowing he could. And Jack would be even more frustrated, I think, if Ennis were within reach but he couldn't behave as he wanted to around him but had to cover up his feelings and watch every word he said.
I think the "rest" has a lot to do with this. If Ennis were to agree to live with Jack, jack would have no problem moving back to WY -- or any place where Ennis was, I suspect. But to stay close to the person and not have him the way it was meant to be -- that would have been torture for Jack. He probably felt that he needed the distance -- he needed "the rest", in order to forget this painful fact. For example, I suspect that his drinking problem is linked to this -- the desire to forget, the need for some distance.
That's how I feel, Thomas. :-\\ While Jack wasn't happy in Texas, I think he was fine with the situation because he had companionship. I think he just needed to feel like he belonged somewhere and with someone. Ennis being the ultimate someone. I think at his core, Jack was lonely and he didn't pick up and leave his marriage because it was a case of something is better than nothing.
If they lived nearer, it wouldn't work, IMO. Ennis couldn't compartmentalize it if Jack were anywhere within easy reach, and Jack couldn't bear seeing him in a casual way - look at how much they evidently want to kiss when the girls are there in the scene after the divorce. There's too much emotion crackling between them; sure, if they were together all the time it would eventually die down, as it would be bound to do, but long before that they'd have given themselves away, which is of course what Ennis is afraid of - look at the way he watches the guy who drives past in the pickup when he and Jack are doing no more than talking.Ennis at least can ONLY live a sham life because Jack is far away - no way he could keep up the act with Jack appearing regularly, or even knowing he could. And Jack would be even more frustrated, I think, if Ennis were within reach but he couldn't behave as he wanted to around him but had to cover up his feelings and watch every word he said.
I totally can see it this way, WW, but I like to think that with the time's a'changing as they were, that Ennis would see maybe it wasn't as bad as he thought it was...except that's probably wishful thinking, in Wyoming. This wasn't the 70's and 80's in the big cities, after all.
kathy
That's how I feel, Thomas. :-\\ While Jack wasn't happy in Texas, I think he was fine with the situation because he had companionship. I think he just needed to feel like he belonged somewhere and with someone. Ennis being the ultimate someone. I think at his core, Jack was lonely and he didn't pick up and leave his marriage because it was a case of something is better than nothing.
A lot of speculation on my part...but...are you saying that ,had Jack moved closer to Ennis and saw him more often say, once or twice a week,that Ennis would not ever accept Jack?
Not saying that this would happen overnight, Ennis would be easily spooked, has a *low startle point* then maybe Jack should just go home and leave Ennis to himself. let him stew,rationalize, and what-iff till the cows come home but he'll know Jack is there. think it out for as long as it takes, then see if Ennis comes to him.
If Ennis in his vulnerable state decides to see Jack, he would'nt have to go far. No long distance calls, postcards, etc, Jack would be right there. It would be a true test of Ennis's strength in his love for Jack. I don't believe that Ennis is so resigned to a life of lonliness,that he will not grow to want Jack around him Sooner or later Ennis would want to see him. If Jack knew deep inside that Ennis would never learn to live with him, then what's Jack's point of going through what he went through for 20 years.? Ennis is the only one whom Jack would settle down for.
Jack really thought he could make this happen for them. He wanted and needed more time with Ennis to make it happen. It may even be a slow process, but it's makes more sense to me than Jack living un happy clear down in Texas.
Again, it is a compromise, but could lead to something better than what he had.
Yep, it's a game of chance on Jack's part of course, and imo chances they had. after all ...he was the Jack of hearts <^( <^( and he had Ennis's. Worth a shot. just MHO . :t)
It seemed to me that he didn't really want to know the "rest", which means that he half wanted the distance between them...
Just a thought...
If they lived nearer, it wouldn't work, IMO. Ennis couldn't compartmentalize it if Jack were anywhere within easy reach, and Jack couldn't bear seeing him in a casual way - look at how much they evidently want to kiss when the girls are there in the scene after the divorce. There's too much emotion crackling between them; sure, if they were together all the time it would eventually die down, as it would be bound to do, but long before that they'd have given themselves away, which is of course what Ennis is afraid of - look at the way he watches the guy who drives past in the pickup when he and Jack are doing no more than talking.Ennis at least can ONLY live a sham life because Jack is far away - no way he could keep up the act with Jack appearing regularly, or even knowing he could. And Jack would be even more frustrated, I think, if Ennis were within reach but he couldn't behave as he wanted to around him but had to cover up his feelings and watch every word he said.
I'm now confused. :s) Does "the rest" mean everything Jack can see as possible and Ennis can't? or is "the rest" "All them things" Ennis don't know but suspects Jack is doing in his absence. I'm still leaning towards Randall's role in Jack's life post-Ennis.In any case Jack had had enough IMO. While Ennis is still waundering around Brokeback in his mind,, ( " all we got now? is Brokeback Mt! everything's built on that" "I hope you know that"....) .
Jack came down from Brokeback thinking of the past, present, and future with Ennis at his side. From the mountain,stems a sweet life for him. Having Ennis to have and to hold forever, his dream. Ennis came down holding on to memories of the past, got stuck there.. Brokeback was only the beginning for Jack, he wanted to make something out of the time and experiences there, but Ennis tried to fight any long term plans beyond the mountain with Alma , Cassie , kids, jobs, etc. .. and that they did'nt really have a *thing* , just a one-shot deal....so he thought. Forgetting what happened to him and Jack up there proved harder than he imagined. To deny Jack was to deny himself. Jack was just reminding him of that. The "rest" was up to him. My 2 cents.
To me it implies also that Jack does know the rest in the sense of what they could have had; he's envisaged it, seen it in his mind's eye, given it " a local habitation and a name", as Ennis never has. If he were able to see it, it would terrify him, so in a way he's better offf lacking the imaginative ability to see and alternative to what he has.
Well,perhaps we´ve been divagating about what would have happenned if Jack had lived closer to Ennis, and all this;the only real thing is the frustration that the final confrontation scene breathes...Why?Don ´t you think that both of them are right and wrong at the same time?And that both of them are in some way a little selfish?I mean,it´s easier for Jack to leave it all than for Ennis,because he has a social status that allows him a freedom than his lover hasn´t.As somebody told,he also forgets or underestimates the pain Ennis felt for his divorce and the following separation from his daughters.In this sense,he´s wrong and a little selfish;but he´s right because twenty years of loving without hope answer for him.Then,the wrong and sellfish is Ennis, when he doesn´t understand all what the other has left for him,including more time spent with his own son precisely.
Ah,Kathy¡I don´t know your own way,but on this forum I divagate so: :d)
Speaking seriously,Tpe,Jack not only had left a lot of things for Ennis,but also had run some dangers;he was a man with a social status and a father-in-law that "hate his guts"-what probably led him to death-.But Ennis also has something to lose,precisely because his social status was not so high;a job with all what this means,the possibility of not seeing his daughters for a long time,and his dignity in sum-letting aside the same dangers that Jack also ran and that frightened him so much,not without being right-.I agree with you in that "the rest" was all the opportunities they lost and perhaps in Jack´s case,all the love and hopes he had put on Ennis and that sometimes he felt as if this one didn´t share.His doubts and fears often seem stronger than his love and this inner fight broke out in this final confrontation.
Hello again,tpe¡And again I totally agree with you :clap: again... I think that Ennis realized too late too many questions:what you´ve said,but also knowing how to fight for what he wanted-what at least Jack knew very well-,be loyal to his family and comitments,but also to the love of his life,understand that life is too short to quite an illusion before being accomplished,etc.etc.... and,what´s worse,perhaps he realized too late how much Jack loved and needed him and even how much he loved and needed Jack.
These questions for me are part of "the rest" that he never know until it was too late and here lies the great tragedy of the relationship and theirs.Perhaps the "Jack,I swear..." meant:"Jack,I swear I won´t be so stupid..."
Yes, I originally also thought that Ennis must have thought about all the other "activities" that Jack hid from him, although I now have this feeling that Ennis also must have understood that it also referred to all the missed opportunities in their lives.
I now think that both of them understood "the rest" to mean both...
Your dead right on this. When Ennis fell to his knees he realized the full weight of the situation at hand, as well Jack did as he drew Ennis to him to comfort him. When I see this scene, the hauntingly beautiful lyrics of "Dreams" sung by Stevie Nicks come to mind.
I think both of them knew very well at that point,not only of the "confrontation scene",but of their relationship what "the rest" meant,and they only were looking unconsciously for the right situation to deal with it.Yes,tpe,I also think there´re so many layers of meaning and interpretation on this scene,everyone can give theirs according to their feelings,but I think mainly that "the rest" means the opportunities of being together that they had lost for Ennis behaviour.And also,perhaps,bearing in mind Jack´s touching speech,it can means:..."You´ll never know how much I´ve loved you;in spite of my occassional reliefs in Mexico,I´m not speaking only about sex when I´m referring to you".
I'd like to "resuscitate" this old thread by saying that,as a resume,this phrase "...if you don't never know the rest" is,above all,a kind of love's declaration on Jack's side.It could be-and,as a matter of fact,is too...-that Ennis didn't know about Randall or his Mexico trips; but I think that specially is some intangible things that there're in that "rest":the lots of times Jack had cried for the death of his "sweet life together" dream,the things he had left and the risks he had run for being with Ennis,the time they had lost,etc.And,above all still,for me "the rest" is "How much I've loved you and I love you still,and you had never seemed to realise it."
I never fully understood exactly what that line meant, but the way you put it here, MPJ, I get it. "The rest" being all the ways Jack felt. Maybe Ennis was too busy denying himself to really understand or know or think about how "this thing" was for Jack over all these years.I guess because Jack had mentioned a bit before that they should go some place warm like Mexico but I kind of wondered how Ennis knew what went on there. I think Ennis was more aware of the ways of the world than he let on. Again like that old saying goes "still waters run deep" He kept quiet a lot but that mind of his was always working.
Only slightly off topic, there is something in this scene I also don't really get. Ennis says, "You got a better idea?" Jack says, "I did, once." Then Ennis says, "You been to Mexico?" and it goes from there. I've always wondered why Ennis says that right then. Doesn't seem anything brought it up.
However, I kind of just answered my own question. In the screenplay, it's expressed more clearly. There is a little bit in there between the dialogue that explains Ennis's thought process right then, and also that Jack had been waiting for Ennis to comment on this all these years.
Thanks for listening -- I was just thinkin' out loud.
kathy
I never fully understood exactly what that line meant, but the way you put it here, MPJ, I get it. "The rest" being all the ways Jack felt. Maybe Ennis was too busy denying himself to really understand or know or think about how "this thing" was for Jack over all these years.
Only slightly off topic, there is something in this scene I also don't really get. Ennis says, "You got a better idea?" Jack says, "I did, once." Then Ennis says, "You been to Mexico?" and it goes from there. I've always wondered why Ennis says that right then. Doesn't seem anything brought it up.
However, I kind of just answered my own question. In the screenplay, it's expressed more clearly. There is a little bit in there between the dialogue that explains Ennis's thought process right then, and also that Jack had been waiting for Ennis to comment on this all these years.
Thanks for listening -- I was just thinkin' out loud.
kathy
I guess because Jack had mentioned a bit before that they should go some place warm like Mexico but I kind of wondered how Ennis knew what went on there. I think Ennis was more aware of the ways of the world than he let on. Again like that old saying goes "still waters run deep" He kept quiet a lot but that mind of his was always working.
Perhaps off topic too;Jack answers "I did,once" and Ennis repeats this phrase to ask him in his turn if he has been to Mexico...I think that Ennis uses this suspicion about his lover's faithfulness to avoid really speaking about this idea Jack had once.Maybe he didn't suspect in that moment that this excuse would serve precisely to make the confrontation he wanted to avoid explode with more strength.JMHO.
I'm working my way through this thread. It's gut-wrenching, but IMO I think it's the best thread online!
Ennis read "I did once" as a provocation -- which was why he brought up the trips to Mexico. The culmination leads to Ennis's threat to Jack. It is interesting to note that Jack's response is part justification and part prophecy. The "rest" is left intentionally vague -- so that it lingers in our mind as we see the succeeding scenes unfold.
I guess because Jack had mentioned a bit before that they should go some place warm like Mexico but I kind of wondered how Ennis knew what went on there. I think Ennis was more aware of the ways of the world than he let on. Again like that old saying goes "still waters run deep" He kept quiet a lot but that mind of his was always working.
In the ss it implied Ennis knew exactly what went on in Mexico, but only by what he heard, sometimes we think of Ennis living a "cloistered life", but on the contrary. I think sometimes Ennis knew "the rest", he loved Jack. JMO.
This is so true. His saying, "I did once" may well be heard to mean that he doesn't anymore. Which could lead Ennis to believe Jack has given up on the sweet life with Ennis (which to Ennis means of course a totally monogamous sweet life). So he feels Jack might be messing around...and then after the comment about Mexico, it all comes together in Ennis's mind.
Good -- I get it now. Thank you all.
kathy
That is a better wasy of putting it, kathy. I guess this is why there was something in Jack's response that struck me as vaguely unpleasant. Ennis must have took the supposition as an insult -- or close to it; hence, his response. But what was perhaps most painful to Ennis was the fact that Jack spoke the truth, and that perhaps Jack had finally given up hope, when he said "I did once."It could have been taken for Ennis as an insult or,at least,as a renounce of the part of Jack of this "sweet life together".This,joined with the suspicions he had about Jack's faithfulness,made him answer in this way.
That is a better wasy of putting it, kathy. I guess this is why there was something in Jack's response that struck me as vaguely unpleasant. Ennis must have took the supposition as an insult -- or close to it; hence, his response. But what was perhaps most painful to Ennis was the fact that Jack spoke the truth, and that perhaps Jack had finally given up hope, when he said "I did once."
It could have been taken for Ennis as an insult or,at least,as a renounce of the part of Jack of this "sweet life together".This,joined with the suspicions he had about Jack's faithfulness,made him answer in this way.
But I tend to suppose that,mainly,he was suspicious,yes,but he was waiting for the right moment to tell it.He knew perfectly that he couldn't "attack" Jack with this suspicion after having told him that they didn't see each other in months.But his friend "served it in argent plate",as we say here,when he said this "I did once"; Ennis then had a good excuse to avoid the subject by speaking,at his turn,about what happenned with Mexico.JMHO.
That's what I think. It almost reminds me of Ennis saying "once burned" to Alma.