Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com

The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: dalemidex on May 18, 2006, 02:54 PM

Title: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: dalemidex on May 18, 2006, 02:54 PM
In the confrontation scene at the lake, when Ennis breaks down after Jack lets loose, Jack hugs him and says "it's alright, it's alright. 

I've often thought it was an interesting parallel since those are the very same words Jack says to Ennis in the second night in the tent.

But I digress.  As Jack holds a collapsing Ennis, Ennis  says "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack".

Then we cut to the pivotal, bittersweet, tender, gut-wrenching, tear-jerking flashback scene.   It ends with Jack watching Ennis ride away so many summers ago, and then the contemporary Jack watching Ennis drive away in his old pickup.


But what happened in the real 1982 action to get us from the collapsing embrace to Ennis driving off?  What took place?  What was said?

Did Ennis simply pull away, compose himself, get into his truck and drive off?

Did either of them say anything?  Was any mention of November made? 

Did "I honestly can't stand this anymore, Jack"  evoke a comment from either of them, or was it simply ignored?


I've wondered about this for awhile, but I don't know that I really wanted to speculate on the answer until now.  I can only come up with painful scenarios that really twist the knife.  Fortunately most of my coworkers are in a seminar at the moment so they don't see me wiping the tears that this scene is bringing. 

Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: welshwitch on May 18, 2006, 03:10 PM
The more I watch this scene, and the last few minutes in particular, the more I think that having ( as Alma did after the Thanksgiving scene) crossed boundaries they never had before, their future was problematic. Ennis had shown a sort of contempt for Jack in the " boys like you" remark and almost challenged him to say whatever he wanted in saying "Go ahead". So Jack talks about what they could have had  - past conditional tense.  I can't see what else there was to say; Jack says he wants to quit Ennis, Ennis says he can't bear it any more - wher do they go from there? Then the flashback shows what they had, BBM, but never moved on from, as Jack has said. I think they parted in silence, the silence of emotional exhaustion.

But both the story and the directions taken from it include the pwrds " nothing ended".

And love being what it is, had Jack lived and sent Ennis another message, I'm sure Ennis would have been there again in November - but I'm a romantic. i identify with Jack, and that's what I would do.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: Valandil Eluch on May 18, 2006, 03:15 PM
 :'( :'( :'( welshwitch  you got me
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: stacp on May 18, 2006, 03:35 PM
The more I watch this scene, and the last few minutes in particular, the more I think that having ( as Alma did after the Thanksgiving scene) crossed boundaries they never had before, their future was problematic. Ennis had shown a sort of contempt for Jack in the " boys like you" remark and almost challenged him to say whatever he wanted in saying "Go ahead". So Jack talks about what they could have had  - past conditional tense.  I can't see what else there was to say; Jack says he wants to quit Ennis, Ennis says he can't bear it any more - wher do they go from there? Then the flashback shows what they had, BBM, but never moved on from, as Jack has said. I think they parted in silence, the silence of emotional exhaustion.

But both the story and the directions taken from it include the pwrds " nothing ended".

And love being what it is, had Jack lived and sent Ennis another message, I'm sure Ennis would have been there again in November - but I'm a romantic. i identify with Jack, and that's what I would do.

I agree not much was said after they finally got up off of their knees.  But I do think something changed between them.  I think Jack maybe understood for the first time how much Ennis sacrificed to be with Jack and to love Jack ("I'm nobody, nowhere because of you.").  I think Ennis also realized just how much he loved Jack and how much living apart from him was destroying them.  I like to think this was a turning point for Ennis, although he may not have been able to verbalize it at that moment.  He broke up with Cassie thereafter, and sent that postcard about November.  I don't think either of them ended anything, regardless of the "other fella" Jack talked to his dad about.  I like to think if Jack hadn't have died, he would've met Ennis in November in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: donnaread on May 18, 2006, 03:37 PM
I think you kind of have to fill in the blanks with the short story version.  They sort of 'made up'..."nothing ended", but remember, even though Ennis said he "...can't stand this anymore, Jack", ENNIS is the one who sent the post card sayiing that it looked like November was still the best he could do for them to get together again.  And in spite of Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you!", I can't see him not meeting Ennis in November.  Of course there's the fact of what Jack told his dad about coming up there with another guy.  It breaks my heart to think that Jack was trying to move on, but maybe he was.  But I still think he would have met Ennis in November, even if only to tell him that he (Jack) couldn't stand it anymore.  Maybe he would have given Ennis an ultimatum.  Sometimes I think he should have, but then again, Jack couldn't quit Ennis.  The whole thing just keeps going in circles in my head...their last arguement... Ennis sending the post card...Jack's dad telling Ennis about the other guy... :-\.

Damn, I wish whe had all the answers! :'(  Then again, what would we talk about?

Donna
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: ande_nem on May 18, 2006, 03:40 PM
In a way I think it's good that we don't have all the answers, because a) it's good to discuss what we think would have happened and b) we might not have liked the answers. This way, everyone can come up with their opinions as to what would have happened, and to make Brokeback Mountain whatever they want it to be. And I think that's what the beauty of the story is  :)
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on May 18, 2006, 03:49 PM
I have always assumed that nothing was said or exchanged between the final embrace and Ennis driving off.

In my mind's eye, I had always envisioned Ennis simply breaking away from Jack's embrace, taking off on his truck, and driving away -- still in tears.  I had always placed the succeeding Cassie scene as immediately after, when you still see Ennis pretty much in tears (also, because Cassie apparently could not get hold of Ennis until then, since Ennis was with Jack in the mountains).

All throughout this, Jack must have remembered the dozy embrace.  It is truly a magnificent juxtaposition.  One of the glories of the movie -- where the screenplay actually improves on the short story, in my opinion.

The explicit juxtaposition of these two scenes is the most beautiful and horrendous of all the parallel pairings -- a device used so many times in the movie.

In between the two embraces stretches out a vast, immeasurable, spiritual void.

The only thing worthy of that magnificent and vast emptiness is SILENCE itself.


Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: shieldmaid on May 18, 2006, 08:40 PM
I have always assumed that nothing was said or exchanged between the final embrace and Ennis driving off.

In my mind's eye, I had always envisioned Ennis simply breaking away from Jack's embrace, taking off on his truck, and driving away -- still in tears.  I had always placed the succeeding Cassie scene as immediately after, when you still see Ennis pretty much in tears (also, because Cassie apparently could not get hold of Ennis until then, since Ennis was with Jack in the mountains).

All throughout this, Jack must have remembered the dozy embrace.  It is truly a magnificent juxtaposition.  One of the glories of the movie -- where the screenplay actually improves on the short story, in my opinion.

The explicit juxtaposition of these two scenes is the most beautiful and horrendous of all the parallel pairings -- a device used so many times in the movie.

In between the two embraces stretches out a vast, immeasurable, spiritual void.

The only thing worthy of that magnificent and vast emptiness is SILENCE itself.




Wow, tpe, that was beautifully said.  I had never made the connection that Cassie couldn't get a hold of Ennis because he was with Jack, but that makes perfect sense.  He has let go of Cassie but can't ever let go of Jack.  At the same time, Jack remembers what he has always loved about Ennis--what, in my opinion, would have kept him coming back in spite of everything else.  :(
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: NoReins on May 19, 2006, 03:00 AM
I reckon they would have held each other for a while, not talking other than maybe a few comforting words, and then just got up and headed back to their pickups. In the short story it says that things were torqued back to the way they had been, nothing ended, nothing resolved, nothing begun - we see that when, despite his angry words, Jack goes to comfort Ennis just like he always had. Nothing had really changed, other than a few things being out in the open. Although there is pain and weariness in Jack's face as he watches Ennis drive away, there is still love there too. The flashback only enhances that - reinforcing how much he's loved Ennis all along.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: welshwitch on May 19, 2006, 05:42 AM
And there's no answer in the story because there's no answer in reality. the truth lies in the human heart, and that's too deep for any of us to plumb.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on May 19, 2006, 07:50 AM
Thanks shieldmaid.  He keeps on coming back -- this is our confession of faith.

NoReins, yes.  Even in that last look, there is still that 'love that will never grow old'.

welshwitch, there are indeed things of the heart too deep to plumb.  In such cases, there are no easy answers.  Only faith.

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: karen1129 on May 19, 2006, 10:02 AM
You know, since I've never fully understood what "I just can't takes this anymore Jack" meant,
I don't know what to think of what happened afterwards. 
Probably just both got in their trucks and drove off.
Ignoring all that was said to each other in the blame game they had going.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: ande_nem on May 19, 2006, 12:28 PM
Considering that's the last time they see each other, it's really upsetting  :'(
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: jacks_key on Feb 07, 2007, 11:47 AM
I have always assumed that nothing was said or exchanged between the final embrace and Ennis driving off.

In my mind's eye, I had always envisioned Ennis simply breaking away from Jack's embrace, taking off on his truck, and driving away -- still in tears.  I had always placed the succeeding Cassie scene as immediately after, when you still see Ennis pretty much in tears (also, because Cassie apparently could not get hold of Ennis until then, since Ennis was with Jack in the mountains).

All throughout this, Jack must have remembered the dozy embrace.  It is truly a magnificent juxtaposition.  One of the glories of the movie -- where the screenplay actually improves on the short story, in my opinion.

The explicit juxtaposition of these two scenes is the most beautiful and horrendous of all the parallel pairings -- a device used so many times in the movie.

In between the two embraces stretches out a vast, immeasurable, spiritual void.

The only thing worthy of that magnificent and vast emptiness is SILENCE itself.




Another old topic I'm just now discovering...

Thomas, as always, you said it better than I ever could.  I, too, believe Ennis just got up, walked to his truck and left Jack standing there.  Nothing was resolved...and Jack would have met Ennis in November as planned.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 07, 2007, 01:25 PM
Thanks, jacks_key , for bringing to life this old discussion.

It was probably so intense that any words exchanged between them at that moment would have been totally inadequate.

The status quo certainly meant meeting in November.  Randall, of course, complicates the picture, but I personally can't see Jack not seeing Ennis one more time.

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: JT on Feb 07, 2007, 01:34 PM
I would like to think that after they embraced, they slowly got up and Jack, arm still over Ennis's shoulder still comforting him, walk Ennis to his (Ennis) truck before going to his own truck.  No words exchanged.  Ennis, still crying, drove off and for once look at Jack on his rearview mirror.  Jack just stood there until Ennis is out of sight.  If Jack did see Ennis one more time, Jack will give Ennis an ultimatum.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 07, 2007, 01:38 PM
I would like to think that after they embraced, they slowly got up and Jack, arm still over Ennis's shoulder still comforting him, walk Ennis to his (Ennis) truck before going to his own truck.  No words exchanged.  Ennis, still crying, drove off and for once look at Jack on his rearview mirror.  Jack just stood there until Ennis is out of sight.  If Jack did see Ennis one more time, Jack will give Ennis an ultimatum.

Yes, I did feel that Ennis drove away still crying. 

OT: Even in the scene following (with Cassie), he looks like he was still crying.  I know that scene is not necessarily immediately after the quarrel, but it certainly looked like Ennis had been crying all day...

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: JT on Feb 07, 2007, 01:45 PM
Ennis did look very moody and upset in that scene with Cassie, but I don't think it immediately followed the quarrel with Jack.  I think it might even be a few weeks afterward.  Sorry,  *o)
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: aintfoolin on Feb 07, 2007, 04:48 PM
I don't think to much more was said or done after this ordeal. I agree that they got up, walked back to their trucks with maybe some tentative "I'm sorrys" uttered and went their seperate ways. Ennis probably still feeling guilt and shame from his "exposure"  by Jack and as usal left to think, ponder and analyze each and every thing that was said and done only to realize that nothing had really changed as far as his feelings for Jack went. But with one major acknowledement.... That he would have to make a major decision and soon. I feel he would have givin Jack what he wanted at Pine Creek where they were to meet again had Jack lived. I think he weighed everything against his feelings of love ,coupled with the years invested in the affair and came to the conclusion that Jack was right and it was worth a shot, but knowing Ennis there would have still been "comprimisies" that had to be worked into it. I think he would've caved though.Just my opinion.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 07, 2007, 04:58 PM
Thanks JT and aintfoolin.  :)

I do think there was not that much they could have said to each other after this scene.  It was a violent torquing back to the status quo.  They probably didn't dare say anything further.

 
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: jackster on Feb 07, 2007, 09:50 PM
There are two other “good-bye” scenes we see, the end of the summer on Brokeback in ’63 when they separate at Jack’s truck, and the scene when Jack heads back (to Mexico) after rushing to Ennis after the divorce. Both of these good-byes are emotionally tense, abrupt, akward, and painful. My feeling is that this departure would be the virtually same. A kind of shuffling Ennis looking at the ground and a very pained Jack desperately hoping for something more. Do any of you see a real similarity in Jack's facial expressions while standing beside his pickup truck in 1963 as Ennis walks away, and then in 1982 as Ennis drives away? The two looks are almost the same, seperated by age. Maybe another bookend.

jackster
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 08, 2007, 09:15 AM
There are two other “good-bye” scenes we see, the end of the summer on Brokeback in ’63 when they separate at Jack’s truck, and the scene when Jack heads back (to Mexico) after rushing to Ennis after the divorce. Both of these good-byes are emotionally tense, abrupt, akward, and painful. My feeling is that this departure would be the virtually same. A kind of shuffling Ennis looking at the ground and a very pained Jack desperately hoping for something more. Do any of you see a real similarity in Jack's facial expressions while standing beside his pickup truck in 1963 as Ennis walks away, and then in 1982 as Ennis drives away? The two looks are almost the same, seperated by age. Maybe another bookend.

jackster

I agree.  The only subtle difference in my mind is that in the last one, Jack was at the end of his tether, and Ennis was at the breaking point.  It probably appreaches in intensity the scene back in 63, when they did not expect to see each other again.  But you are right in that in all 3 scenes, they reacted primarily with silence -- the inability to express how they felt.

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: welshwitch on Feb 09, 2007, 11:42 AM
What I can't figure out is whether afterwards Ennis actually thought about it and decided he could stand it, or whether he just sent the postcard because that's what he'd done before, and Ennis wasn't capable of breaking a habit?

And what did Jack do? Go back to Randall, presumably.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 09, 2007, 11:58 AM
What I can't figure out is whether afterwards Ennis actually thought about it and decided he could stand it, or whether he just sent the postcard because that's what he'd done before, and Ennis wasn't capable of breaking a habit?

And what did Jack do? Go back to Randall, presumably.

I think Ennis could stand to be away from Jack, even if he forced himself not to lead a separate life from him.  I guess it was his idea of a compromise.  As in some compromises, you end up losing everything.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: welshwitch on Feb 09, 2007, 01:57 PM
Jack lost his life.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 09, 2007, 02:32 PM
Jack lost his life.

There are greater tragedies than losing one's life.  I guess the deep tragedy is that he died unfulfilled and embittered.

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: lamusica on Feb 11, 2007, 08:20 PM
I like to think they calmed down, got up, mentioned meeting in November, hugged good-bye and parted.  I realize this was a cataclysmic argument, but I do not feel it was anything that couldn't be overcome among two people who love one another.  People are always having disagreements and fights; often one person in a couple feels he/she has given more, way above and beyond what the other has given, to the relationship.  Still, they go on with it.  I think Ennis and Jack would have gone on with their relationship with little difference to the way it was in the past.  How it would have ended is fun to imagine.  I just don't think this was the end for them.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 12, 2007, 08:11 AM
I like to think they calmed down, got up, mentioned meeting in November, hugged good-bye and parted.  I realize this was a cataclysmic argument, but I do not feel it was anything that couldn't be overcome among two people who love one another.  People are always having disagreements and fights; often one person in a couple feels he/she has given more, way above and beyond what the other has given, to the relationship.  Still, they go on with it.  I think Ennis and Jack would have gone on with their relationship with little difference to the way it was in the past.  How it would have ended is fun to imagine.  I just don't think this was the end for them.

lamusica, so you don't think this quarrel pushed Jack to decide to try building a life with someone other then Ennis (as hinted at by John Twist)?

On one hand, I undersatnd what you mean: that things got torqued back to the status quo, as mentioned in the short story.  On the other hand, it would seem that Jack had given up on ever making progress with Ennis as far as sharing a life together, and that this last quarrel convinced him that to push Ennis in this direction would be to hurt him...
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: lamusica on Feb 12, 2007, 11:26 AM
Perhaps Jack would have continued his relationship with Randall, but not to the exclusion of Ennis.  Ennis was his love; Randall was his release.  Throughout history, many marriages existed like that: A wife and a mistress, for example.  I just don't think Jack would have forgotten Ennis because Ennis was too important to him -- a part of him.  If you really love someone, even someone who isn't good for you, it is hard, if not impossible, to leave them behind.  On a daily basis, Jack could have Randall; a few times a year he could have Ennis.  But it is Ennis who is his man forever, IMO.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 12, 2007, 11:58 AM
Perhaps Jack would have continued his relationship with Randall, but not to the exclusion of Ennis.  Ennis was his love; Randall was his release.  Throughout history, many marriages existed like that: A wife and a mistress, for example.  I just don't think Jack would have forgotten Ennis because Ennis was too important to him -- a part of him.  If you really love someone, even someone who isn't good for you, it is hard, if not impossible, to leave them behind.  On a daily basis, Jack could have Randall; a few times a year he could have Ennis.  But it is Ennis who is his man forever, IMO.

Yes, personally, I can't see Jack being able to bear a separation forever.  Call me a Romantic, but the patience of nearly 20 years speaks for itself when I say this.

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: lamusica on Feb 12, 2007, 02:56 PM
Yes, I'm an incurable romantic, also.  Twenty years becomes a habit.  Twenty years establishes a pattern that becomes a part of a person and is very difficult to break.  There would have to be a terrible reason for Jack to break the Ennis habit.  I can't for the life of me think of anything that owuld have made him give up Ennis for all time.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 12, 2007, 06:32 PM
Yes, I'm an incurable romantic, also.  Twenty years becomes a habit.  Twenty years establishes a pattern that becomes a part of a person and is very difficult to break.  There would have to be a terrible reason for Jack to break the Ennis habit.  I can't for the life of me think of anything that owuld have made him give up Ennis for all time.

The story breaks off prematurely, when there was a possibility of perhaps bringing things to a head.  It becomes an article of faith.

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: lamusica on Feb 12, 2007, 07:11 PM
If Jack hadn't died, and if Jack had responded to Ennis's last postcard that, yes, he would meet him in November, perhaps they would have continued their last conversation ( argument) and something might have been settled.  Maybe, at long last, Ennis would have capitulated, partly, if not fully, and made some more satisfactory arrangements with Jack.  Of course, with Jack dead, this is a mute point.  We can only conjecture about this.  But, I still feel that nothing short of death would have split them totally and permanently.  Given enough time without Jack, I believe Ennis would have compromised.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 12, 2007, 07:39 PM
If Jack hadn't died, and if Jack had responded to Ennis's last postcard that, yes, he would meet him in November, perhaps they would have continued their last conversation ( argument) and something might have been settled.  Maybe, at long last, Ennis would have capitulated, partly, if not fully, and made some more satisfactory arrangements with Jack.  Of course, with Jack dead, this is a mute point.  We can only conjecture about this.  But, I still feel that nothing short of death would have split them totally and permanently.  Given enough time without Jack, I believe Ennis would have compromised.

It is hard for me to think of Ennis giving in, but surely even Ennis said that he couldn't stand it anymore (at least in the movie).  Cracks have started to show.  Perhaps Jack should have shown a bit more patience...
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: welshwitch on Feb 13, 2007, 05:47 AM
The ovious reply (obvious to me at least) would have been, "All right then, what are you going to do about it?" which would have thrown the responsibility back on Ennis to put up or shut up. In fact he apparently drove away with no decision having been made.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 13, 2007, 08:29 AM
The ovious reply (obvious to me at least) would have been, "All right then, what are you going to do about it?" which would have thrown the responsibility back on Ennis to put up or shut up. In fact he apparently drove away with no decision having been made.

I had wondered though if the status quo had become less stable for Ennis.  After that confrontation, it is hard for me to think that nothing was changed.  After all, Proulx did indicated that they "torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they’d said was no news."


Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: welshwitch on Feb 13, 2007, 10:23 AM
The "almost" applies to both of them, though, so either or both could have felt that to some degree things had changed irrevocably. Ennis doesn't follow up his statement, apparently, and neither does Jack - the look on his face when he watches Ennis drive away can be seen as frustration, despair,anger, so many things.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: lamusica on Feb 13, 2007, 01:53 PM
I agree that the cracks are beginning to show, but it takes a long time for cracks to cause a true rift.  I don't know if Ennis could have/ would have changed. I don't know if Jack should have been more patient with Ennis.  It just seems to me that this argument is one of many smaller ones they probably had had ( see ss) and weathered.  How long they would have kept up their arrangement is questionable, but things do change. While Ennis didn't seem capable ( or willing) of change, Jack could have changed.  He might have left Lureen ( as he told his dad he was planning to do with Randall).  Jack might have moved closer to Ennis. However, death took care of those possibilities.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: welshwitch on Feb 13, 2007, 02:06 PM
I sue Jack could have moved back to Lightning Flat as he'd said he'd do, with or without some of the Newsome money. If he'd gone alone rather than with Randall, he'd have been nearer Ennis and more able to see him - but of course that might have make Ennis feel that Jack was crowding him and made him even more twitchy.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 13, 2007, 07:04 PM
The "almost" applies to both of them, though, so either or both could have felt that to some degree things had changed irrevocably. Ennis doesn't follow up his statement, apparently, and neither does Jack - the look on his face when he watches Ennis drive away can be seen as frustration, despair,anger, so many things.

I agree.  It may have been an infinitesimal perturbation, but we know that such small changes may move mountains.  I think the ground on which the status quo of their relationship stood was not as solid as before, and had Jack lived, perhaps, there would have been some final accomodation.

 
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 13, 2007, 07:09 PM
I agree that the cracks are beginning to show, but it takes a long time for cracks to cause a true rift.  I don't know if Ennis could have/ would have changed. I don't know if Jack should have been more patient with Ennis.  It just seems to me that this argument is one of many smaller ones they probably had had ( see ss) and weathered.  How long they would have kept up their arrangement is questionable, but things do change. While Ennis didn't seem capable ( or willing) of change, Jack could have changed.  He might have left Lureen ( as he told his dad he was planning to do with Randall).  Jack might have moved closer to Ennis. However, death took care of those possibilities.

Ennis is certainly the difficult question here.  It was Jack's challenge to convince Ennis that taking risks was better than living a life of fear.  Ironically, he probably succeeded in demonstrating this to Ennis by his own death/murder.  According to the calcuated risk, it would seem that Jack had lost.  But in truth, it was Ennis who realized in the end the true extent of how much greater was his own loss at not having taken a risk.

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: lamusica on Feb 14, 2007, 08:24 PM
I agree with everything you've said, tpe.  Have you ever wondered why Jack didn't just up and leave Lureen and either go home to Lightning Flats, or move somewhere else nearer to Ennis?  I have wondered this often.  Since Jack is willing to take risks for what he wants ( going to Mexico, for instance, for sex), why didn't he take this big risk to get to Ennis? ^*() Jack seemed so footloose and fancy free, but he stayed in a rather miserable situation for a lot of years, all the while yearning to be closer to Ennis.  Still, he settled for what he had and bitched about it.  This confuses me a bit.   :)
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: manhattangirl on Feb 15, 2007, 04:41 AM
I agree with everything you've said, tpe.  Have you ever wondered why Jack didn't just up and leave Lureen and either go home to Lightning Flats, or move somewhere else nearer to Ennis?  I have wondered this often.  Since Jack is willing to take risks for what he wants ( going to Mexico, for instance, for sex), why didn't he take this big risk to get to Ennis? ^*() Jack seemed so footloose and fancy free, but he stayed in a rather miserable situation for a lot of years, all the while yearning to be closer to Ennis.  Still, he settled for what he had and bitched about it.  This confuses me a bit.   :)

Thank you!   That is on question I've asked myself over and over.    Jack's alway said his father in law would buy him off.  Jack had the means and the opportunity to get out, and set up life anywhere he wanted.  Why didn't he? 

Then I ask myself, did he know to upset the delicate balance that kept him and Ennis together might be ruin if he did anything to change it.    Was it Jack's own fear that kept in this hellish situation, (his marriage to Lureen)? 
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: lamusica on Feb 15, 2007, 01:39 PM
I think the "delicate balance" thing is real.  Jack could never be sure how Ennis would react.  Had he moved closer to Ennis, Ennis may have felt threatened -- felt as if people would notice them together -- how much time they spent together, where they went, etc.  This might have made Ennis back off, which is exactly the opposite of what Jack wanted.  Sometimes what you have is a sure thing and, while not perfect, may be the best you can do at the time.  Maybe Jack was jsut biding time.  However, fate caught up with him.
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 16, 2007, 11:51 AM
I agree with everything you've said, tpe.  Have you ever wondered why Jack didn't just up and leave Lureen and either go home to Lightning Flats, or move somewhere else nearer to Ennis?  I have wondered this often.  Since Jack is willing to take risks for what he wants ( going to Mexico, for instance, for sex), why didn't he take this big risk to get to Ennis? ^*() Jack seemed so footloose and fancy free, but he stayed in a rather miserable situation for a lot of years, all the while yearning to be closer to Ennis.  Still, he settled for what he had and bitched about it.  This confuses me a bit.   :)

I think he did this because he thought Ennis wanted it this way.  To have moved any closer would perhaps been construed as an attempt to change the status quo, and I think Jack really didn't want to force the issue with an unwilling Ennis.

In the end, it was Jack's intention to move back to LF, apparently with Randall.  Was this a direct challenge to Ennis, I wonder?

To return to the original topic, I am sure it crossed Jack's mind during his last moments with Ennis that the greatest risk of all was to move on with someone else.  To have closed the door on the hope of a sweet life with Ennis probably killed Jack.

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: welshwitch on Feb 18, 2007, 12:48 AM
The problem with "I honestly can't stand this any more, Jack" is that it's Ennis, not Jack, who's created the situation he can't stand. If when you can't fix it you have to stand it, does the opposite also apply? In that case since Ennis can't stand it he is the one who will have to fix it, but he'll have to fix it having heard Jack's declaration that he can't make it on a few high-altitude f**ks a year and resents the short leash he's been kept on.

Ennis's options look limited - either to give in and give Jack what he wants or to give up. So since he sends the postcard about November, he clearly hasn't given up - is he going to give in? Or, being Ennis, is he just hoping to go on because he will, in the end, stand it if he has to?
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: manhattangirl on Feb 18, 2007, 11:00 AM
"I can't stand this any more, Jack" is Ennis only confession to the truth.   He would look to Jack to redeem him and make things alright, again.  He himself couldn't fix it or stand it.  He was waiting for November.   
Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 20, 2007, 08:59 AM
The problem with "I honestly can't stand this any more, Jack" is that it's Ennis, not Jack, who's created the situation he can't stand. If when you can't fix it you have to stand it, does the opposite also apply? In that case since Ennis can't stand it he is the one who will have to fix it, but he'll have to fix it having heard Jack's declaration that he can't make it on a few high-altitude f**ks a year and resents the short leash he's been kept on.

Ennis's options look limited - either to give in and give Jack what he wants or to give up. So since he sends the postcard about November, he clearly hasn't given up - is he going to give in? Or, being Ennis, is he just hoping to go on because he will, in the end, stand it if he has to?

Yes.  In this scene, Ennis was fighting with himself as much as he was fighting with Jack, correct?  That was what made it much more intense for him.  I think Jack understood this at the end of the scene.

Title: Re: What happens after "I honestly can't stand this anymore Jack" at the lake?
Post by: tpe on Feb 20, 2007, 09:01 AM
"I can't stand this any more, Jack" is Ennis only confession to the truth.   

It was perhaps the closest he ever came to admitting the intensity of his love while Jack was still alive.