Folks,
Heavy stuff. I am quite hesitant to bring this up, but it's something I've noticed a few times and I confirmed it tonight.
I've seen the complete movie only twice, but I've seen various clips (mostly on youtube) many times. Once when I was watching clips on youtube, but video stopped to buffer during the tire-iron scene when you could see one of the assailants pretty well (though blurry). I thought to myself, "Ooh, that looks a little like Ennis." Creepy.
Then I purposely tried to stop the video a few times at the same place. It's hard to get it to stop in the right place, and it's always blurry, but there is one little moment when you see a guy that is very reminiscent of Ennis.
Then one day, the thought hit me, "That guy is Ennis's stunt double." I just knew it, but I couldn't confirm it. Then I saw the movie on pay-per-view tonight, and there it was in the credits.
Near the end of the movie, the three assailants are mentioned. One, called "Grease Monkey," is played by Christian Fraser. Then, when the stunt doubles are listed, one of Ennis's doubles is Christian Fraser.
I feel certain that Ang Lee--being as careful and as brilliant as he is--did this on purpose. Why? So far I have two possibilities.
1. It is a statement that :'( in some way :'( Ennis is responsible for Jack's death. By refusing to be available to Jack, Jack was sort of forced into the relationship with Randall (or whatever), which was found out about and led to his death. This is very sad to think about. :'( The scene shows what really happened, with the symbolism there to make a point.
2. Since the tire iron scene (I now believe; I'm contradicting an earlier post of mine on some thread) takes place in Ennis's mind (though still representing the basic truth of what happened), the presence of an alter-Ennis shows how guilty Ennis *feels* about Jack's death. He blames himself, perhaps irrationally, for not being there to help, or just for being Jack's lover (remember the scene where he describes irrational fears that "everyone knows".) This is also rather sad.
So by using Ennis's double to wield the tire iron, the scene is either stating that, on some level, Ennis really is responsible for Jack's death, or else the scene is merely stating that Ennis feels responsible for Jack's death.
Sorry. Painful subject, but some people might want to know.
*sad sigh*
Near the end of the movie, the three assailants are mentioned. One, called "Grease Monkey," is played by Christian Fraser. Then, when the stunt doubles are listed, one of Ennis's doubles is Christian Fraser.
I feel certain that Ang Lee--being as careful and as brilliant as he is--did this on purpose. Why? So far I have two possibilities.
1. It is a statement that :'( in some way :'( Ennis is responsible for Jack's death. By refusing to be available to Jack, Jack was sort of forced into the relationship with Randall (or whatever), which was found out about and led to his death. This is very sad to think about. :'( The scene shows what really happened, with the symbolism there to make a point.
2. Since the tire iron scene (I now believe; I'm contradicting an earlier post of mine on some thread) takes place in Ennis's mind (though still representing the basic truth of what happened), the presence of an alter-Ennis shows how guilty Ennis *feels* about Jack's death. He blames himself, perhaps irrationally, for not being there to help, or just for being Jack's lover (remember the scene where he describes irrational fears that "everyone knows".) This is also rather sad.
So by using Ennis's double to wield the tire iron, the scene is either stating that, on some level, Ennis really is responsible for Jack's death, or else the scene is merely stating that Ennis feels responsible for Jack's death.
Sorry. Painful subject, but some people might want to know.
*sad sigh*
Folks,
Heavy stuff. I am quite hesitant to bring this up, but it's something I've noticed a few times and I confirmed it tonight.
I've seen the complete movie only twice, but I've seen various clips (mostly on youtube) many times. Once when I was watching clips on youtube, but video stopped to buffer during the tire-iron scene when you could see one of the assailants pretty well (though blurry). I thought to myself, "Ooh, that looks a little like Ennis." Creepy.
Then I purposely tried to stop the video a few times at the same place. It's hard to get it to stop in the right place, and it's always blurry, but there is one little moment when you see a guy that is very reminiscent of Ennis.
Then one day, the thought hit me, "That guy is Ennis's stunt double." I just knew it, but I couldn't confirm it. Then I saw the movie on pay-per-view tonight, and there it was in the credits.
Near the end of the movie, the three assailants are mentioned. One, called "Grease Monkey," is played by Christian Fraser. Then, when the stunt doubles are listed, one of Ennis's doubles is Christian Fraser.
I feel certain that Ang Lee--being as careful and as brilliant as he is--did this on purpose. Why? So far I have two possibilities.
1. It is a statement that :'( in some way :'( Ennis is responsible for Jack's death. By refusing to be available to Jack, Jack was sort of forced into the relationship with Randall (or whatever), which was found out about and led to his death. This is very sad to think about. :'( The scene shows what really happened, with the symbolism there to make a point.
2. Since the tire iron scene (I now believe; I'm contradicting an earlier post of mine on some thread) takes place in Ennis's mind (though still representing the basic truth of what happened), the presence of an alter-Ennis shows how guilty Ennis *feels* about Jack's death. He blames himself, perhaps irrationally, for not being there to help, or just for being Jack's lover (remember the scene where he describes irrational fears that "everyone knows".) This is also rather sad.
So by using Ennis's double to wield the tire iron, the scene is either stating that, on some level, Ennis really is responsible for Jack's death, or else the scene is merely stating that Ennis feels responsible for Jack's death.
Sorry. Painful subject, but some people might want to know.
*sad sigh*
I quote this in full. It deserves to be quoted in full. It is a superb post on one of the most painful of all topics.
edgar, you have opened up a whole new dimension as far as BBM is concerned.
I am in full agreement with point #2. It must be true. It is too deliberate to assume it was by chance.
Again, this is a most wonderful and horrific thread.
Da steht auch ein Mensch und starrt in die Höhe
Und ringt die Hände vor Schmerzensgewalt;
Mir graust es, wenn ich sein Antlitz sehe -
Der Mond zeigt mir meine eigne Gestalt.
Du Doppelgänger, du bleicher Geselle!
Was äffst du nach mein Liebesleid,
Das mich gequält auf dieser Stelle
So manche Nacht, in alter Zeit?
A man is standing there, too, staring up into space,
And powerfully wringing his hands in torment.
It horrifies me, when I see his countenance,
The moon shows me my own form.
You my fearful double, you pale partner!
Why do you ape the pain of my love,
That has tortured me here in this spot
So many a night, in times long ago?
- Heine
Folks,
Heavy stuff. I am quite hesitant to bring this up, but it's something I've noticed a few times and I confirmed it tonight.
I've seen the complete movie only twice, but I've seen various clips (mostly on youtube) many times. Once when I was watching clips on youtube, but video stopped to buffer during the tire-iron scene when you could see one of the assailants pretty well (though blurry). I thought to myself, "Ooh, that looks a little like Ennis." Creepy.
Then I purposely tried to stop the video a few times at the same place. It's hard to get it to stop in the right place, and it's always blurry, but there is one little moment when you see a guy that is very reminiscent of Ennis.
Then one day, the thought hit me, "That guy is Ennis's stunt double." I just knew it, but I couldn't confirm it. Then I saw the movie on pay-per-view tonight, and there it was in the credits.
Near the end of the movie, the three assailants are mentioned. One, called "Grease Monkey," is played by Christian Fraser. Then, when the stunt doubles are listed, one of Ennis's doubles is Christian Fraser.
I feel certain that Ang Lee--being as careful and as brilliant as he is--did this on purpose. Why? So far I have two possibilities.
1. It is a statement that :'( in some way :'( Ennis is responsible for Jack's death. By refusing to be available to Jack, Jack was sort of forced into the relationship with Randall (or whatever), which was found out about and led to his death. This is very sad to think about. :'( The scene shows what really happened, with the symbolism there to make a point.
2. Since the tire iron scene (I now believe; I'm contradicting an earlier post of mine on some thread) takes place in Ennis's mind (though still representing the basic truth of what happened), the presence of an alter-Ennis shows how guilty Ennis *feels* about Jack's death. He blames himself, perhaps irrationally, for not being there to help, or just for being Jack's lover (remember the scene where he describes irrational fears that "everyone knows".) This is also rather sad.
So by using Ennis's double to wield the tire iron, the scene is either stating that, on some level, Ennis really is responsible for Jack's death, or else the scene is merely stating that Ennis feels responsible for Jack's death.
Sorry. Painful subject, but some people might want to know.
*sad sigh*
During the tire iron secne, it seemed to me that Jack hadn't his moustache. Before he received the hits on the face, he looked like being younger... Not really sure... (we don't have the DVD in France yet :-[
I think Lureen knew about the way Jack died, but only because she was told after the event, and fed the cover-up story that was intended for public consumption. Remember the way Ennis said his father might have been involved ib the murder of the rancher - people knew or guesed who was likely to take part in such things but no-one said openly.
[to which edgar replies] Yes. No doubt. [/edgar]
I don't think she was seeing the murder, but I think Ennis was. If you love someone, you become a part of them - Ennis is so much a part of Jack that as soon as he hears Lureen's little set-piece speech, he knows the truth - second sight, ESP, whatever. His whole existence since he met Jack had been dominated by the fear of a death like this, for Jack or himslef, and he instantly knew that what he'd spent his time fearing, what stopped him making a life with Jack and caused them so much misery, was the fate that was always waiting there and couldn't be avoided.
[to which edgar replies] I like that idea. I had said earlier that the scene seems to be a mixture of Ennis's nightmare and what really happened. ESP (or whatever) works. It's certainly been used in countless books and films. [/edgar]
Jack's death and the nature of his life from now on have the inevitability of tragedy - the tragic hero sometimes seems to know what lies ahead and anticipates his own end with what can almost seem like relief- "the readiness is all". In a sense Ennis has been mentally prepared to be without Jack since the beginning - his death devastates Ennis but at the same time is something almost expected, and its nature, even possibility, something he has contemplated before.
Thanks to all for the response. I'll say more at another time.
Thomas, that poem is set to music in an absolutely haunting song by Shubert. But you probably know that.
;) :-\ :'( :) :( ???
During the tire iron secne, it seemed to me that Jack hadn't his moustache. Before he received the hits on the face, he looked like being younger... Not really sure... (we don't have the DVD in France yet :-[
That's why I think that the scene just derives from Ennis' imagination.
By "from now on" I just meant that Ennis would go on living alone - unlike Jack, he wouldn't find anyone else. He had a connection with his daughter and this I suppose might continue, but I can't see him in any other relationship involving risking his emotions, which is what you do when you love someone. I like the idea that he might have made contact with Jack's mother again, but I'm not to sure that isn't wishful thinking.Oh, I see. What I actually didn't understand was the word "he" in the original post; I thought you meant Jack, not Ennis. Yes, Ennis would tend to stay alone.... But if, years later, someone approached him (ala Cassie), I might see him getting involved... Ahdunno.
hmmm... perhaps he might get involved, but somehow... for me anyway... his "Jack, I swear" meant that Ennis was finally making the commitment to Jack that he never could when he was alive. Sadly, I think that it took losing Jack for Ennis to admit to himself that the feelings he had for Jack were in fact love. :-[
~sorry, I need to go cry now~
My thoughts. too. Ennis loved only once and that ended in death and loneliness - he wouldn't risk his heart again and couldn't anyway. and maybe his vision of Jack's death was also a sort of foreshadowing of what might happen to him or warning against admitting his real nature.
My thoughts. too. Ennis loved only once and that ended in death and loneliness - he wouldn't risk his heart again and couldn't anyway. and maybe his vision of Jack's death was also a sort of foreshadowing of what might happen to him or warning against admitting his real nature.
I feel that in the end, Ennis is entombed with his love for the dead Jack. There is hope in his acceptance in the wedding invitation of his daughter, but I sense that in some way, he had already died.
In this sense, the tire iron is the death of two, and not one.
My thoughts. too. Ennis loved only once and that ended in death and loneliness - he wouldn't risk his heart again and couldn't anyway. and maybe his vision of Jack's death was also a sort of foreshadowing of what might happen to him or warning against admitting his real nature.
I feel that in the end, Ennis is entombed with his love for the dead Jack. There is hope in his acceptance in the wedding invitation of his daughter, but I sense that in some way, he had already died.
In this sense, the tire iron is the death of two, and not one.
I believe a big part of Ennis died when Jack died.
As you said there is hope- I think Ennis learned to put love and those he loves above everything else.
I don't think he could handle having to live with anymore "What ifs".