Hi! I just saw the movie yesterday and loved it, of course. But I have a question. You won't believe but I received an important call on my cell phone, just at the moment Ennis and Jack are having their final discussion, when Ennis tells Jacks he wouldn't make it in August, and they would only see each other in November. My question is: there is a little flashback at the end of the discussion, isn't it? My two friends that saw the movie with me kept saying it was a very tender scene but I missed it!!! Could you tell me what does that flashback scene shows? (I can't wait to see BBM again!).
What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.
hey:)
On the 1st time i thought the scene was the following : they argued then calmed down in front of the fire, but today i noticed Jack's moustache away..Anyway i found this flashback weird, a brutal cut with the scene before...
hey:)
On the 1st time i thought the scene was the following : they argued then calmed down in front of the fire, but today i noticed Jack's moustache away..Anyway i found this flashback weird, a brutal cut with the scene before...
Hey quentin751, I haven't read the story, and I think I don't need to read the story to interpret the scene. I like to imagine that after Ennis is crying so badly, there is a reconciliation that we don't see. The reconciliation is so wonderful that it is like the first summer on the mountain in 1963. So the flashback is a substitute. Ennis goes away like in 1963, but this time Jack knows he will never have a ranch with just the two of them living there.
Just my interpretation. Stephan
Just my interpretation. Stephan
I don't think it was a last parting either. All Jack had to do was look at Ennis or let Ennis give Jack the impression he wanted a life together, Jack would have made Riverton in 10 hours. That crushing scene when Jack has driven all that way, makes me cry, here I go again, right now. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
For me, this is the heart and soul of the entire movie. It is pure art and pure beauty. There is no such like in all of cinema.
For me, this is the heart and soul of the entire movie. It is pure art and pure beauty. There is no such like in all of cinema.
Your posts are starting to make me cry at the office!
The poetry of it all. The reaching out into distant memory: Jack remembering that perfect moment so close to the end of his life; Ennis remembering his mother as he wraps his arms protectively around Jack and sings to him a half-forgotten lullaby. The music dipping into the poigniant minor key right before the beautiful guitar solo joins in at the dead center of this wonderful scene. Jack's drooping Head. Ennis's hand tracing tender arcs on Jack's collar. The cold of the mountain surrounding two souls one and inseparable.
Is there a human being so hard of heart as not to be moved by this scene? It tugs at the foundation -- the very heartstrings -- of one's soul.
The poetry of it all. The reaching out into distant memory: Jack remembering that perfect moment so close to the end of his life; Ennis remembering his mother as he wraps his arms protectively around Jack and sings to him a half-forgotten lullaby. The music dipping into the poigniant minor key right before the beautiful guitar solo joins in at the dead center of this wonderful scene. Jack's drooping Head. Ennis's hand tracing tender arcs on Jack's collar. The cold of the mountain surrounding two souls one and inseparable.That mother/child connection is so powerful. A mother's love, the purest love there is. Ennis' mom was probably the only person who ever truly loved him, until he met Jack. The fact that Ennis reaches so deep down and in a rare moment of emotional surrender, shares this love with Jack, makes this scene all the more poignant. This is a totally different Ennis, soft and sweet, even his voice. The Ennis that Jack could never quit and would spend the next 20 years trying to reawaken.
Is there a human being so hard of heart as not to be moved by this scene? It tugs at the foundation -- the very heartstrings -- of one's soul.
Speaking of the "heart" of the movie -- when Ennis wraps his arm around Jack and grasps his collar, his (Ennis) right hand seems to hover close to Jack's heart...probably unintentional but a nice visual touch.
That mother/child connection is so powerful. A mother's love, the purest love there is. Ennis' mom was probably the only person who ever truly loved him, until he met Jack. The fact that Ennis reaches so deep down and in a rare moment of emotional surrender, shares this love with Jack, makes this scene all the more poignant. This is a totally different Ennis, soft and sweet, even his voice. The Ennis that Jack could never quit and would spend the next 20 years trying to reawaken.
Kleenex time... :'(
For me, this is the heart and soul of the entire movie. It is pure art and pure beauty. There is no such like in all of cinema.
For me, this is the heart and soul of the entire movie. It is pure art and pure beauty. There is no such like in all of cinema.
Absolutely ! After seeing for the 4th time, this scene is still the one that moves me the most. Today the tears actually ran.
I also noticed that the sequence is : Ennis crumples to the ground, Jack is holding him, then Ennis grabs onto him ; jump to flashback which is Ennis cuddling Jack, singing in his ear, then telling him "I gotta go, see you in the morning." Therefore, they decide after their argument that they're still together. Stephan
do you remember Jack/Gyllenhaal moan ever so softly when Ennis/Ledger embarces him? It is the sound of a child completely contented and at peace with the beloved.
I know! There seems to be a million things in each scene that we discover each time we see this beautiful film. And this scene is no exception. Ennis gently rocking Jack while holding him close, Jack so content with his lover, moans with pure contentment and snuggles into Ennis's arm. :'( :'( I'm going for my 3rd viewing tonight.....can't wait...although I know my heart will start pounding the minute I hear that music, and see Ennis and Jack.....
Is it just me, but when the film begins, hearing the music start up, just sends me......
It IS the heart and soul of the film, absolutely. Ennis holding Jack in their favourite place, Ennis is so happy there with Jack. It says so much without words.....so beautifully filmed, it absolutely floors me every time I see that scene. I believe that this scene encapsulates everything about how they felt about each other, but mainly how Ennis felt about Jack, because Ennis found it so hard to express how he felt, so to see him, holding Jack, speaking softly to him (I adore his voice here. It is so beautiful, low, soft, tender and loving), it says everything and we KNOW he loved Jack in the same way Jack loved him. It also goes some way to explain why Ennis reacted the way he did when they had to leave Brokeback early (using the excuse of the money), and why he breaks down in the alley way. He never wants to leave Brokeback, because by leaving Brokeback, he's leaving Jack, the love of his life.To me, this scene says it all - the union of hearts and minds! As they wrapped their arms in loving embrace, I was not sure if I heard the lyrics of the song:
To cut this scene into the final scene of them together, illustrates so clearly that Jack loved Ennis then, and he will love him now, whatever happens. He will take from Ennis anything that he gives him, no matter how small. This is how I see the whole scene making sense.
I don't believe it was a final parting, either. What I think "let be, let be" means in the story is that Jack has realized how things will be with Ennis--it will always be fleeting moments, and he has to come to terms with that, which he does by also seeking out other relationships. I don't think it means that he has let go of his love for Ennis, or given up on Ennis, just that he understands what their relationship is. In other words, it's his version of "if you can't fix it, you got to stand it."
The previous paragraph also mentions "nothing ended, nothing resolved" between them. I think Jack just had to resolve things for himself.
camom
Would he be there in a heartbeat for Ennis....yep....woulda redlined it all the way to Wyoming BUT.....he was ready for more...and was going for it with those other relationships. On many levels I think Jack was one who could make the most of the situation...and was ready to do just that....however Ennis would ALWAYS be in his soul!
Would he be there in a heartbeat for Ennis....yep....woulda redlined it all the way to Wyoming BUT.....he was ready for more...and was going for it with those other relationships. On many levels I think Jack was one who could make the most of the situation...and was ready to do just that....however Ennis would ALWAYS be in his soul!
rikcub I won't think you are, but, it sounds like you are saying that Jack is a lying, cheating and shallow person.
We know that at the last meeting of Jack and Ennis Jack decided he had to move on for both their sakes. He was already having an affair with Randall. Randall had approached Jack and not the other way around like it has always been.
When Jack left the parking lot and drove to his parents he told them there was someone else. Doesn't matter if Jack brought Randall up to like on his parent's ranch or not. He was ready to settle down and set up housekeeping with Randall. Seeing Randall approached him I suspect Randall was wanting the same thing. So either at the Twist Ranch or somewhere in Texas he and Randall were now together.
To say that Jack would have dumped Randall every time Ennis called or wrote a post card doesn't say much for Jack. And how long would Randall put up with that? That means Jack would have to lie to Randall to spend a week with Ennis. That would mean Jack was pretty shallow telling Randal he loved him all the while really loving Ennis.
See my point? I just can't see Jack doing that. Or, maybe I don't want to see Jack doing that.
Part of the magic of the story and the film is that we don't really know the answer....like Ennis we are never sure
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.
I think Jack was trying to find a way to quit Ennis, the pain and heartache was consuming him, and he wanted to live. But he never could sever that tie, and there was never a commitment between them, in Jack's mind or heart. 'Jack had never asked him (Ennis) to swear anything, and was himself not the swearing kind'.
Had Jack lived, I think he would have kept his date with Ennis in November..hoping that something might change. Or maybe he just couldn't ride it any longer...just as he quit rodeoing before it killed him...
Part of the magic of the story and the film is that we don't really know the answer....like Ennis we are never sure
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.
To me, this scene says it all - the union of hearts and minds! As they wrapped their arms in loving embrace, I was not sure if I heard the lyrics of the song:
How do you keep the music playing
how do you make it last?
How do you keep the song from fading too fast?
How do you lose yourself to someone
And never lose your way
How do you not run out of new things to say?
And since we know we're always changing
How can it be the same?
And tell me how, year after year
Your heart will surely fall apart
Each time you hear HIS name.
I know the way I feel for you is NOW or NEVER
THE MORE I LOVE THE MORE THAT I'M AFRAID
That in your eyes I may not see forever?
IF WE CAN BE THE BEST OF LOVERS
YET BE THE BEST OF FRIENDS. . . . . . .
Did I really hear the song? Or was it just playing in my head!!!
I heard two hearts beating as one.
Can I add that Koka's avatar conveys a different side of Ennis - Just look at the affectionate ending/break to the kiss in the stairwell - I think this is somewhat breathtaking...I tell ya these 2 actors....dont think the movie would have been the same...
anyone else?
YES!! For me, it's not so much the kiss at the reunion scene, (although I like the kiss VERY much) it's afterwards. It's watching Jack look at Ennis with that look in his eyes. You only see him from the side, but his eyes say it all. Like "After all this time, I want you more than I thought possible" But, really, it's after the kiss that I love. Watching Ennis nuzzle against Jack, watching him get lost in that "moment" It's intense and always just gets me so much. I love that more than the kiss itself!!
I think this is a favourite scene for many of us. That look of wistful complete love makes me cry even as I am thinking of it just now.Such love on Jack's face, contrasting with "older" Jack and the pain on his face as he watches Ennis drive away. :'( Donna
OH MY!!! That is so beautiful!! I'm totally jealous!! MEANIE!!!
LOL ;D
You're funny!!
:D
I just had to post here so that you could all get jealous...
Did you see my new avatar?
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The music playing in that scene during the nuzzling is priceless and goes so well with that scene. I wish I could get the sight of Alma witnessing that kiss out of my head though. I'm so happy for them in that scene, just that they are reunited and flames are being ignited, but we know that they've been found out. I cringe every time, just as I cringe when I see Aguirre watching them on BBM.
That nuzzle though, gah, totally does it for me. The emotions are more intense in that part, than in the kiss. And yes, who doesn't love that Kiss!! ;D
Can I add that Koka's avatar conveys a different side of Ennis - Just look at the affectionate ending/break to the kiss in the stairwell - I think this is somewhat breathtaking...I tell ya these 2 actors....dont think the movie would have been the same...omg...I agree totally...I read a review somewhere that someone said the chemistry between Jack and Ennis wasn't believable. I disagree with that observation. I thought it was totally believable. I love it when Ennis nuzzles Jack before they go up to meet Alma in the reunion scene. And Jack grasping Ennis' shirt, like he can't bear to let him go. And when Ennis deliberately pushes Jack's hat off after he pushes him against the wall to kiss him. I don't think Jack was expecting that kind of aggression from Ennis, but he sure gave back as good as he got! ;D Donna
anyone else?
Oh my, how totally and utterly gorgeous is your avatar?!!!!!
Ennis and Jack in their loving embrace.....too beautiful for words. :'( :'(
Awesome new avator!
I just had to post here so that you could all get jealous...
Did you see my new avatar?
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hehe, I'm not jealous 'cause I had that gif as an avatar on another forum last week ;) :D
hehe, I'm not jealous 'cause I had that gif as an avatar on another forum last week ;) :D
what'eva!!!
hehe, I'm not jealous 'cause I had that gif as an avatar on another forum last week ;) :D
what'eva!!!
*LOL* :-* what, think you're too cool for me? ;) 8)
A few responses to your (as usual) high-quality post:
I agree that Ennis should be taller than Jack. That just fits.
I don't know about your idea that the dozy hug took place before any sex. The way it's played in the movie, those two guys involved in that embrace are definitely lovers. If Ennis is the Ennis that is (on some level) shocked at Jack making his move during the FNIT, he would not embrace like that.
Maybe you have a different way to envision the embrace? Please share. :)
A few responses to your (as usual) high-quality post:Actually Heath IS taller than Jake, but only by one inch. Jake is six feet, Heath is 6'1". But you will notice in most scenes Ennis appears shorter than Jack. I think Heath deliberately (through body language)tries to make himself appear shorter thank Jake, just another way Heath had of making Ennis look more withdrawn and closed to the outer world than Jack is. I think Heath...trying to make Ennis shorter than Jack,is sort of a way of saying that to Ennis...Jack is larger than life. OR...Jack is the biggest part of Ennis' life even though he didn't consciously realize this until after Jack is dead. Am I reaching here?
I agree that Ennis should be taller than Jack. That just fits.
I don't know about your idea that the dozy hug took place before any sex. The way it's played in the movie, those two guys involved in that embrace are definitely lovers. If Ennis is the Ennis that is (on some level) shocked at Jack making his move during the FNIT, he would not embrace like that.
Well, unlike the movie, what happened in the original story regarding the FNIT, after Ennis got into the bedroll with Jack, there was deepened intimacy before Jack took Ennis's LEFT hand and put it on his penis. And, in reference to that intimacy, it caused the evidence of the "clear slick" (called "pre-come") on Ennis' part. Ennis reacting like he touched something hot seems to be due to him possibly thinking, "Well, if we are going to do it, I am going to be the leader and be first."
While they were just working together before they trades places on BbM, their (non-sexual) friendship did not really start until Ennis came down from the sheep after spending the first night and day up there. Up until that time, they had very little conversation and it was like Ennis was afraid to get too close to another man, even in conversation.
The change came about in their communication when Ennis had something to brag about as a man, that was the killing of a coyote with balls the size of apples. And, Ennis not only shaved while Jack was peeling taters, he took a washcloth bath right in front of Jack next to the campfire (see the book). And, after Ennis bared himself physically and after supper, Ennis and Jack both shared a whole lot about themselves and their lives before they met.
I am not a new kid on the block as far as life is concerned (I'm only 63). But, I have been hugged from behind in a non-sexual way by a friend with whom I didn't want to have sex with. But, that hug filled hunger just to be held. Annie Proulx referred to that kind of hug/embrace satisfying a sexless hunger.
"Sometimes, what is in the movie contradicts what is in the book or what is lied about in the book becomes reality in the movie."
Very intriguing. Give an example of a lie in the book that was reality in the movie.
Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want. Jack said he'd had a thing going with the wife of a rancher down the road in Childress and for the last few months he'd slank around expecting to get shot by Lureen or the husband, one. Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it. Jack said he was doing all right but he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies.
Without getting up he threw deadwood on the fire, the sparks flying up with their truths and lies, a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not for the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt.
Ennis made up the lie about the woman and the screenplay writers used a play on words by naming her "Cassie" since it sounds like "chassis" (chassie) the underframe of a vehicle. One puts the blocks to a vehicle to raise it up to look underneath it. That like was an updated way of Ennis saying "I'm still not no queer."
Ennis made up the lie about the woman and the screenplay writers used a play on words by naming her "Cassie" since it sounds like "chassis" (chassie) the underframe of a vehicle. One puts the blocks to a vehicle to raise it up to look underneath it. That like was an updated way of Ennis saying "I'm still not no queer."
That's one way to interpret it, but I don't think you can say for sure that it was a lie. I think the screenwriters did make an affort to be as faithful to the short story as possible, and if Ennis just made this whole thing up I'm sure Annie Proulx would've informed them that they got it all wrong... after all they did send her the screenplay to get her approval. Just my opinion.
Ennis made up the lie about the woman and the screenplay writers used a play on words by naming her "Cassie" since it sounds like "chassis" (chassie) the underframe of a vehicle. One puts the blocks to a vehicle to raise it up to look underneath it. That like was an updated way of Ennis saying "I'm still not no queer."
That's one way to interpret it, but I don't think you can say for sure that it was a lie. I think the screenwriters did make an affort to be as faithful to the short story as possible, and if Ennis just made this whole thing up I'm sure Annie Proulx would've informed them that they got it all wrong... after all they did send her the screenplay to get her approval. Just my opinion.
Not to be argumentive, here but in one's freedom of speech in the USA, if a person believes something is true he can say for sure that he believes it is true.
But, you do have a right to say "but I don't think you can prove for sure that it was a lie."
Oh, if the screenwriters had really been 99.9% faithful the original short story and least tried to be, they would not have had Jack driving a BRAND new pickup truck when he showed up at Ennis's place in Riverton in 1967. In the book, he was driving the same old green pickup truck that he had in 1963. Jack even complained about the problems he had with that old vehicle. One of the reasons that Jack was still driving that old truck was that he was still trying to make a living mostly by riding bulls although he had a wife and a baby. Jack NEVER worked for Lureen's fathers company until the old man died.
And, speaking of pickup trucks, Ennis was driving a truck in the book when they parted company in August '63.
The moments when Jack falls in love with Ennis and later lets him go are connected by two almost identical shots of Jack's face in the final meeting scene. We cut to the flashback of Ennis holding Jack, and the look on Jack's face when Ennis rides away really feels to me like the moment when Jack realises he's fallen in love with him (in the book this is the moment when Jack feels closest to him). We then cut to the almost identical shot of a very different Jack's face watching Ennis leaving once more. This time Jack has realised that he and Ennis will never be together in the way that Jack craves. That it's the moment he begins to let Ennis go
... I don't think I can accept that Jack ever let Ennis go. Not really, not deep down in his heart. I think if he hadnt been killed, he would have met Ennis again in November, like Ennis wanted him to. They were two souls connected, and no matter how hard Ennis tried to push Jack away from him, Jack would always be there for Ennis.
... I don't think I can accept that Jack ever let Ennis go. Not really, not deep down in his heart. I think if he hadnt been killed, he would have met Ennis again in November, like Ennis wanted him to. They were two souls connected, and no matter how hard Ennis tried to push Jack away from him, Jack would always be there for Ennis.
Christie, I absolutely agree. I believe neither of them could quit the other. Jack could never love Randall the way he loved Ennis, and as long as Ennis wanted to see him I don't think Jack could say no.
As much as I understand why you describe the similar shot of Jack watching Ennis leave for the final time as the moment "he begins to let Ennis go", I don't think I can accept that Jack ever let Ennis go. Not really, not deep down in his heart. I think if he hadnt been killed, he would have met Ennis again in November, like Ennis wanted him to. They were two souls connected, and no matter how hard Ennis tried to push Jack away from him, Jack would always be there for Ennis.
As much as I understand why you describe the similar shot of Jack watching Ennis leave for the final time as the moment "he begins to let Ennis go", I don't think I can accept that Jack ever let Ennis go. Not really, not deep down in his heart. I think if he hadnt been killed, he would have met Ennis again in November, like Ennis wanted him to. They were two souls connected, and no matter how hard Ennis tried to push Jack away from him, Jack would always be there for Ennis.
Well, Christie, when people make a statement of belief as you have they usually have seen or read or heard something that makes them believe what they do. I would be very interested in knowing what it is you saw, read or heard that makes you believe Jack did not let Ennis go.
I am of the other opinion, and here is why.
It seems Jack is always the aggressor in looking for men. He was with Ennis up on Brokeback, he took Ennis' hand and put it on himself. He was with Bozo the Clown, he approached the clown and gave him the smile and wink. He was with the Mexican in Mexico. Only once was Jack approached by another man and that was Randall. I would like you to go back and look at the scene where Jack and Randall are siting outside of the club. Jack starts to feel Randall out when suddenly Randall comes on to Jack with the cabin, fishing, whiskey and boat talk. The camera goes to a shot of Jack sitting there in amazement that someone is coming on to him. This is the shot I want you to look at particularly carefully, the amazement on Jack's face. So, Jack and randall hook up.
Then we have the scene where Jack tells Ennis that sometimes he misses him so much he can hardly stand it. What does Ennis do, nothing. He just sits there and looks into the fire. No support what so ever for Jack.
Then the final argument between Jack and Ennis. Ennis tells Jack it is going to be three months longer than expected before they can be together again. "This is a bitch of an unsatisfactory situation", Jack replies. Jack says, "Never enough time. Never enough." Jack knows his dream with Ennis is not going to be and in fact things are getting worse. "You use to come away easy. Now it is like seeing the Pope." Ennis tells Jack he has to work. The argument intensifies until finally Jack says, "I wish I knew how to quit you." To which a tearful Ennis retorts, "Well why don't you then. It is because of you Jack that I am like this. I'm nothing, I'm nowhere." Jack tries to comfort Ennis and Ennis says, "I can't stand this any more Jack." Jack knows this past twenty years have been rough on Ennis. He has quit jobs and has lived in poverty just so they could be together whenever they could. But Ennis isn't willing to quit jobs any more. He has child support payments to make.
So, we see Jack remembering a very special time in their relationship when everything seemed perfect. "...that dozy embrace solidified in this memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives." The cameras switches from the face of a man in love to the face of a man sadly resigned to the fact his dream with Ennis will never happen and he must let Ennis go for both their sakes.
Jack changes his dream of the sweet life with Ennis to a sweet life with Randall and goes to Lightening Flats and tells his family so. Would Jack always love Ennis? I think so. I don't think you ever forget the first person you ever loved. I know I haven't, even though he was straight and use to beat me up two or three times a week. But Jack needed to be loved, held, kissed and caressed and he needed it more than once or twice a year for a week. That was never going to happen with Ennis. So Jack let Ennis go and tried to make a life with Randall, and died because of it.
George, do you think Jack loved Randall? what do you think Jack would've done if he was with Randall and would get a postcard from Ennis saying he wants to meet with him?
I feel like Jack would not be able to say no to Ennis... and he will always be number one in his heart. I can't point to something specific I saw or heard that makes me think that, it's just something that I feel strongly inside. maybe it's just my wishfull thinking, because I want them so much to be together...
Patriot1, you make some very valid points there, and I can see why a lot of people believe that Jack did quit Ennis, but, as I said above, I'm in the other camp and always will be. My belief stems in the most part from the line "I wish I knew how to quit you"....not "I'm quitting you" but "I wish I knew..." or to put it another way "I can't quit you because I don't know how". Yes, they've said a lot of hurtful things in that scene....and yes, I think maybe Jack thinks it would be better all round if he could go after that sweet life with someone else....but at the end of the day, it wouldn't be a sweet life with anyone else because most of what would make it so sweet would be being with Ennis.
Time to move on with a piece of your heart missing because the other person has it. But move on you must.
1It isn't till the final meeting when Jack has the flashback and you see Ennis hold him so lovingly that you understand his reaction at the reunion. Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably.
I love this movie so much even 7 months down the line.
1It isn't till the final meeting when Jack has the flashback and you see Ennis hold him so lovingly that you understand his reaction at the reunion. Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably.
I love this movie so much even 7 months down the line.
Tom, I must agree wholeheartedly with you on this one. Early on I wondered when Ennis's feelings for Jack had grown to something more than friendship, that included sex. When they reunite after 4 years, the passion of their meeting really hits the viewer. We think "wow! he really did miss Jack! Maybe he did actually love Jack." The flashback scene confirms that Ennis's feelings for Jack were quite strong prior to their parting. That type of tenderness is rarely exhibited by anyone who doesn't possess strong feelings. Ennis is cuddling Jack and humming/singing in his ear. He may have had questions regarding his own sexuality, but one thing is for certain...he was displaying heart felt affection for Jack.
OK. Where are my tissues? :'( :'(
Jack changes his dream of the sweet life with Ennis to a sweet life with Randall and goes to Lightening Flats and tells his family so. Would Jack always love Ennis? I think so. I don't think you ever forget the first person you ever loved. I know I haven't, even though he was straight and use to beat me up two or three times a week. But Jack needed to be loved, held, kissed and caressed and he needed it more than once or twice a year for a week. That was never going to happen with Ennis. So Jack let Ennis go and tried to make a life with Randall, and died because of it.
After watching this movie again, it is amazing how clever Ang Lee is. When I watched the movie when it came to the scene were Ennis is pacing and smoking and waiting and then the reunion kiss.Very clever positioning of the scenes indeed. Would not have had the same impact if they werent placed right.
After it was over and I had calmed my racing heart down, I thought (then) why is Ennis acting like this when he was so guarded and seemingly indifferent when they first come down from the mountain to Jack's looks and pleas to come back the next year. We had seen them have sex, lark about, even make love...but nothing said Ennis loved Jack at that point in the movie.
The passion of those kisses and the gentleness of the head nuzzles at the reunion said something totally different to me. It said to me Ennis wanted Jack more than anything. Not just sexually but totally. I couldn't get it though (as much as I loved it).
It isn't till the final meeting when Jack has the flashback and you see Ennis hold him so lovingly that you understand his reaction at the reunion. Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably.
I love this movie so much even 7 months down the line.
After watching this movie again, it is amazing how clever Ang Lee is. When I watched the movie when it came to the scene were Ennis is pacing and smoking and waiting and then the reunion kiss.Very clever positioning of the scenes indeed. Would not have had the same impact if they werent placed right.
After it was over and I had calmed my racing heart down, I thought (then) why is Ennis acting like this when he was so guarded and seemingly indifferent when they first come down from the mountain to Jack's looks and pleas to come back the next year. We had seen them have sex, lark about, even make love...but nothing said Ennis loved Jack at that point in the movie.
The passion of those kisses and the gentleness of the head nuzzles at the reunion said something totally different to me. It said to me Ennis wanted Jack more than anything. Not just sexually but totally. I couldn't get it though (as much as I loved it).
It isn't till the final meeting when Jack has the flashback and you see Ennis hold him so lovingly that you understand his reaction at the reunion. Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably.
I love this movie so much even 7 months down the line.
Hugs from behind or so sweet. Whether he wanted to admit he was holding a man or not...Jack loved it...He understood that was all Ennis had to give at that monent. Beautiful.
There you go again Thomas, trying to make me cry again at work!!! %(
I third it! You move on if you have to, either to fall in love again, but differently, or not, You never forget your first love and you never entirely stop regretting it if it didn't become what you wanted it to be, but you often find you can love again, that love, as Sheakespeare said, is " as infinite as the sea".Yeah. I fourth it.
Still, I don't think Jack loved Randall - liked, enjoyed his company, was physically comparible with, maybe, though as George says most of this is speculation - sometimes if the coup de foudre strikes its effects last for ever.
I third it! You move on if you have to, either to fall in love again, but differently, or not, You never forget your first love and you never entirely stop regretting it if it didn't become what you wanted it to be, but you often find you can love again, that love, as Sheakespeare said, is " as infinite as the sea".Yeah. I fourth it.
Still, I don't think Jack loved Randall - liked, enjoyed his company, was physically comparible with, maybe, though as George says most of this is speculation - sometimes if the coup de foudre strikes its effects last for ever.
Would it be indelicate of me to point out that those of us old enough to have love and lost once or twice tend to understand that Jack is moving on? I'm not going to share any personal examples, but many of us could think of reasons to break off a relationship (and remember examples of such) even when the love is still there.
It doesn't mean 100% that it's over with Ennis. I tend to think Jack would have shown up in November.... hell, just getting that postcard from Ennis would have been a sign that Ennis might be coming around... But if he had shown up, he would have initiated a very serious talk at the beginning of the week, not the end.
And would it be indelicate to point out that love is "as boundless as the sea, for both are infinite"?
All right, I'm going to water the lawn now. Very delicately.
There is that hackneyed saying that still speaks true to many of us: "If you love somebody, set him/her free."
I think this is what Jack did. It is an expression of the greatest love.
Agrred, Ennis wasnt letting go, just expressing that he was having a difficult time. It was said much in anger and frustration. I think by the look on Jacks face at the end of the argument...Jack thought he must let him be. In this sense, I agree with TPE.There is that hackneyed saying that still speaks true to many of us: "If you love somebody, set him/her free."
I think this is what Jack did. It is an expression of the greatest love.
But is it what Ennis really wanted, to be set free by Jack? I know he said "why don't you just let me be" but I don't think he meant it, he still sent the card about November... I don't think he really wanted Jack to let him be.
"I wish I knew how to quit you." is just like saying I wish I knew how to stop loving you. I wish I knew how to stop loving the first person I fell in love with also. Forty-three years later the pain is still there. But I have to get on with my life. My sweet life with Stephen will never be, he is straight for one thing. Jack's Sweet life with Ennis will never be. Time to move on with a piece of your heart missing because the other person has it. But move on you must.
The flashback scene is the summation of what Jack thought to be the closest he and Ennis ever came to that perfect moment. It was not perfect, but it was as far as they could go.
Realizing this was the signpost for Jack to move on. I think this is what Jake referred to when he said "There comes a time...", although he was probably speaking more broadly, perhaps more personally.
Thanks mars and welshwitch. The apex and nadir of their love. In the first, he is contented. In the second, he will let him go.
The flashback scene is most precious because it is shown at the very moment when hope is dying. A dying man supposedly sees his entire life pass by in extremis. For Jack, recalling the moment of that embrace suffices. It has the weight of a lifetime.
There is that hackneyed saying that still speaks true to many of us: "If you love somebody, set him/her free."
I think this is what Jack did. It is an expression of the greatest love.
Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably
Ang was clever here because if we had seen the 'sleeping on you feet' embrace whilst they were on the mountain then the shock and impact of the reunion kiss would have been lessened considerably
pure genius.Amen to that!
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.
Proulx, "Brokeback Mountain" (1997 version)
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And that pic says it all. Even if they will see next day, there's something sad in the pic, like it's the last time.
And it's even more painful to watch the scene, when you see all the moves and sad faces and all.. :\'(
And that pic says it all. Even if they will see next day, there's something sad in the pic, like it's the last time.
And it's even more painful to watch the scene, when you see all the moves and sad faces and all.. :\'(
I have yet to watch this scene on dvd. The last time I watched it was at the Waukegan showing during the BBM get-together in Chicago. But I keep it in my heart.
This is my favorite scene too, both in the movie and in the ss...the more i see it, the more I like it.A so brief but so intense scene...so many conflicting emotions.After the first visions, it's become more emotional, almost painful,Knowing that it's their last them meeting,I guess.After so many years,a so "romantic" memory ,melancholy , so well described...sometimes I don't succeded in seeing over this scene.
There was a time when I thought that the scene prior (the final trip/fight) to the flashback was what made me sob. I love the dozy embrace so much (also my favorite scene, as it is for others) and I wanted to watch it without having to see the painful final meeting for Jack and Ennis. I skipped over everything just to get to this flashback scene and still found myself sobbing. That was when I realized that it wasn't the final meeting that upset me so much (even though it still did), it was the flashback scene that made the tears worse. It is one of the most beautiful and bittersweet moments I have ever seen in any movie right from the tenderness we get to see from Ennis, the sway, the humming, Jack getting lost in the moment and finally that look of sheer adoration as Ennis rides off. Incredible.
There was a time when I thought that the scene prior (the final trip/fight) to the flashback was what made me sob. I love the dozy embrace so much (also my favorite scene, as it is for others) and I wanted to watch it without having to see the painful final meeting for Jack and Ennis. I skipped over everything just to get to this flashback scene and still found myself sobbing. That was when I realized that it wasn't the final meeting that upset me so much (even though it still did), it was the flashback scene that made the tears worse. It is one of the most beautiful and bittersweet moments I have ever seen in any movie right from the tenderness we get to see from Ennis, the sway, the humming, Jack getting lost in the moment and finally that look of sheer adoration as Ennis rides off. Incredible.
There was a time when I thought that the scene prior (the final trip/fight) to the flashback was what made me sob. I love the dozy embrace so much (also my favorite scene, as it is for others) and I wanted to watch it without having to see the painful final meeting for Jack and Ennis. I skipped over everything just to get to this flashback scene and still found myself sobbing. That was when I realized that it wasn't the final meeting that upset me so much (even though it still did), it was the flashback scene that made the tears worse. It is one of the most beautiful and bittersweet moments I have ever seen in any movie right from the tenderness we get to see from Ennis, the sway, the humming, Jack getting lost in the moment and finally that look of sheer adoration as Ennis rides off. Incredible.
Thanks Jackster. It has to be in slow motion, as the music seems to reverberate with the scene when viewed in this way. The echo effects in "Spiritual" can be quite haunting. After a while, it becomes almost hypnotic.Hypnotic, exactly. The actual piece, by Charlie Hayden and Pat Metheny, is actually almost twice as long (8 mins) as shown in the YouTube video. I downloaded the iTune album and now can hardly stop listening to it. Like Annie said, when I hear it now, in the car or wherever, it brings this picture of E&J right to me, and I think it always will. It sure did magic for Annie in bringing the right words to her. It is also amazing how this music that she listened to so many years ago while writing is so hauntingly similar to Gustavo Santaolalla's piece composed for the same emotional waterfall years later.
I know I'm about to be crucified here, but I have a bit of a different take on the dozy embrace scene. I know Annie says Ennis came to Jack from behind because he didn't want to realize he was holding a man. She's the boss, of course, and I'm sure that's how she saw it when she wrote it. However, I think Ang and our boys saw it differently. If you look at the stills, you see that Ennis does not shut his eyes or look away. He turns his head towards Jack and looks at him ( albeit from the side). He is fully cognizant of whom he is holding. When I first saw the movie, I expected him to lean in more and kiss Jack on the neck, or nuzzle his ear or hair. I am convinced Ennis was well aware that it was Jack he held, and that's just where he wanted to be at that time. Perhaps it was the very first time he was overtly affectionate with Jack without it leading to sex -- don't know, but it was deliberate, in my most humble opinion.
Hypnotic, exactly. The actual piece, by Charlie Hayden and Pat Metheny, is actually almost twice as long (8 mins) as shown in the YouTube video. I downloaded the iTune album and now can hardly stop listening to it. Like Annie said, when I hear it now, in the car or wherever, it brings this picture of E&J right to me, and I think it always will. It sure did magic for Annie in bringing the right words to her. It is also amazing how this music that she listened to so many years ago while writing is so hauntingly similar to Gustavo Santaolalla's piece composed for the same emotional waterfall years later.
jackster
The way the movie embedded it within the climactic point of the last meeting was a great realization of Proulx's story. This is one of Ang Lee's master strokes. It gains in power and depth. As I have said before, it is (for me) the heart and soul of the entire movie/story.I agree completely. Yes, the scene pull (yanks) at your heart as Ennis walks and then rides away, - BUT, to me what it shows most powerfully is that, in this big wide world of many impossiblities, Ennis and Jack DID actually find each other, and to some degree and at some point each realized that they had found their life's love. How many people go through life and are never able to achieve even this one single moment of immense emotional satisfaction and connection. The emotional pain is a risk with every deep relationship in an uncontrollable world.
I know there's no proof but, I believe the dozy embrace scene was in actuality the last night they were together on BBM. Ennis said goodbye, went up to the sheep to sleep and when he woke up the next day it had snowed, and we see Ennis come put of the pup tent running back and forth.
I agree completely. Yes, the scene pull (yanks) at your heart as Ennis walks and then rides away, - BUT, to me what it shows most powerfully is that, in this big wide world of many impossiblities, Ennis and Jack DID actually find each other, and to some degree and at some point each realized that they had found their life's love. How many people go through life and are never able to achieve even this one single moment of immense emotional satisfaction and connection. The emotional pain is a risk with every deep relationship in an uncontrollable world.
jackster
I know there's no proof but, I believe the dozy embrace scene was in actuality the last night they were together on BBM. Ennis said goodbye, went up to the sheep to sleep and when he woke up the next day it had snowed, and we see Ennis come put of the pup tent running back and forth.
It kind of reminds me of rorschach, too. I wonder how many non-brokies can look at that and instantly see the dozy embrace.
It kind of reminds me of rorschach, too. I wonder how many non-brokies can look at that and instantly see the dozy embrace.
"unfortunately" i do...
not because i don't like to see it... just because.. i see them everywhere...
tizi
Patriot1, you make some very valid points there, and I can see why a lot of people believe that Jack did quit Ennis, but, as I said above, I'm in the other camp and always will be. My belief stems in the most part from the line "I wish I knew how to quit you"....not "I'm quitting you" but "I wish I knew..." or to put it another way "I can't quit you because I don't know how". Yes, they've said a lot of hurtful things in that scene....and yes, I think maybe Jack thinks it would be better all round if he could go after that sweet life with someone else....but at the end of the day, it wouldn't be a sweet life with anyone else because most of what would make it so sweet would be being with Ennis.
It is all too brief...
It is beautiful, but because of the context of the last meeting, the beauty is married to sadness. It is Jack's valediction. This is how he liked to be remembered: safe in the arms of his beloved.
I know there's no proof but, I believe the dozy embrace scene was in actuality the last night they were together on BBM. Ennis said goodbye, went up to the sheep to sleep and when he woke up the next day it had snowed, and we see Ennis come put of the pup tent running back and forth.
Gustavo Santaolalla's music for this scene is brutally moving. It starts with the high strings and goes down to the lower cello range. Very beautiful. It is hard to watch it and remain indifferent.
I think Brokeback Mountain 3 is the saddest of the three BBM on the soundtrack.
I haven't heard the soundtrack but, from what I've read here, it sounds very sad. :\'(
I haven't heard the soundtrack but, from what I've read here, it sounds very sad. :\'(
I agree, Thomas! I'm listening to that score as I type this. I think Brokeback Mountain 3 is the saddest of the three BBM on the soundtrack. As I said before in other thresd, the Dozy Embrace is my favorite scene from the entire movie. It makes me feel warm on the inside but makes me cry too. It is indeed bittersweet.
3 is indeed very moving. The instrumental pieces get to me all the time, most especially in the part that coincides with the Dozy Embrace. "Bittersweet" is the word.
The flashback would not be the same without the music, given that few words were exchanged that reflected the emotional crest of this scene. Like the music, the ascent from the abyss of the last meeting confrontation to the moment of remembrance is breathtaking. The music sweeps over us. It mirrors how we feel.
Just listening to BBM 3 makes my tear up and think about that scene every time. The string instraments and the acoustic guitar sound so good as one follows the other.
Yes, the entry of the guitar at the heart of the flashback scene and the succeeding arpeggios are so in keeping with the spirit and beauty of the overall scene. It is at that point that I normally tear up.
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Agreed! The string part is full of sadness and confusion while the guitar part is more of a comfort that is tinged with a hint of murkiness and uncertainty. That's how BBM 3 sounds to me. And yes, the whole score was played on that scene and even the last two notes continued on to the next scene of Ennis eating pie. It's the conflicting of two powerful emotions that gets to me. You have to appriciate the composer's ability to paint the scene with his music. It add so much to that already powerful and sad scene.
Thanks greenfrog. :)
JT, you said it nicely. The string and guitar sections mirror the bittersweet dichotomy of the flashback scene.
The last part of the music also reflects the misery of the current situation, especially when compared with the flashback scene. Jack's tired and wan look is coupled with Ennis's dejection after the meeting (to be compunded by his breakup with Cassie). I think the music unified and integrated beautifully the flashback scene with both the preceding and succeeding scenes of intense sadness and dejection. The flashback scene acted as a visual and aural high point that carried us upward -- above all the pain and confusion of the present -- for a brief but meaningful moment.
You're absolutely right, TPE. I see the flashback scene as an island of true happiness surrounded by a sea of sarrow. It's a brief moment of time that Jack clings on to for the rest of his life since.
OT: I should try to see the pix in question after work...
I have a visual image of the flashback scene that also follows me, figuratively speaking. For me, this scene is the most haunting one in the entire movie.
For me too,indeed!!
I am sure you will also agree with me Mars whenm I say that it is the most beautiful. :)
Well, I definately agree with you TPE. Beautiful and haunting.
I am sure you will also agree with me Mars whenm I say that it is the most beautiful. :)
IMO:
Why this is so beautiful, this the most fearless moment in their lives.
This is the right moment where the tears start to go down on my cheeks....what a beauty,what a perfect moment for both of them...you're all right, it's a fearless and so contented moment...each time I wonder if I could have a moment like this in my life, oh my!! I hope so! :)
It also underlines the earlier phrase "It could be like this, just like this, always" which we know now was never going to be true for the two of them. It's also a moment of stasis - and moments are all we ever get in a rapidly-changing world. There's an el;ement of wish-fulfilment too - don;t we all want to be so tatally at one with someone else as Jack is here?
I don't see any future for them even had Jack not died. In essence they have spent nearly twenty years destroying each other . . .
I guess I take a less bleak interpretation from all of this, like jackster. I don't know if they ever would have moved any further in their relationship or not. But from the passage in the short story,
....they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.
I see resignation in Jack, but not an outright indication that he was giving up on anything. And perhaps even a glimmer of feeling that in spite of all the pain, that moment and what it represented was worth the cost. The fact that we don't know what would have come next for them only adds to the lack of closure, both for them and for us. And for possibilities that may or may not ever have been realized.
“Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it” has never sounded to me like the admission of someone who was ready to move on. The big argument that follows is, IMHO, a lovers spate that revolves around a lots of issues dealing with the deep 20 year releationship like many spats do. For myself I have never subscribed to the premise that Jacks death meant he was in any meaningful way involved with Randall. Only that he was “playing around” not too much more or less than he was twenty years earlier with the rodeo clown.
And as you say tpe, to me it is the lack of closure that keeps us all guessing and redoing, and redoing, and redoing what it all means. If it was a resolved would we be anywhere near as facinated by it?
jackster
Do you think at this time Ennis finally saw Jack as he really was, and who he was to him? I mean, It wasn't the dozy embrace for Ennis that solidified in his memory their relationship but his blood on Jack's shirt of twenty years earlier. After all Ennis was a realist, Jack the dreamer.