Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: brokebackmountain on Jan 14, 2006, 12:14 PM
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I have kept thinking about this question for days. While I am reading the short story, I envision how in reality Ennis and Jack look like.
There is no doubt that Heath and Jack are beautiful to look at and their actings are excellent and certainly I am not complaining. As I read the story, I tried to pick up every details about them and envision how they look like and act apart from the movie. Somehow, Heath and Jake are not the ones I have in mind.
First - here are some details about Ennis and Jack from the story.
"At first glance Jack seemed fair enought with his curly hair and quick laugh, but for a small man he carried some weight in the haunch and his smile disclosed buckteeth, not pronounced enough to let him eat popcorn out of the neck of a jug, but noticeable."
"Ennis, high-arched nose and narrow face, was scruffy and a little cave-chested, balanced a small torso on long, caliper legs, possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting. His reflexes were uncommonly quick and he was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley's saddle catalog."
Also, the passage at the beginning is one of my favorite.
"Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames. The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft. He gets up, scratching the grey wedge of belly and pubic hair, shuffles to the gas burner, pours leftover coffee in a chipped enamel pan; the flame swathes it in blue. He turns on the tap and urinates in the sink, pulls on his shirt and jeans, his worn boots, stamping the heels against the floor to get them full on. The wind booms down the curved length of the trailer and under its roaring passage he can hear the scratching of fine gravel and sand. It could be bad on the highway with the horse trailer. He has to be packed and away from the place that morning. Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.
The stale coffee is boiling up but he catches it before it goes over the side, pours it into a stained cup and blows on the black liquid, lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong. The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies, leaves a temporary silence."
I wonder if Heath and Jake are the ones you would envision from reading the short story. The more I read the story, the more I don't want them to look like Heath and Jake. Strange, huh?
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[i]Also, the passage at the beginning is one of my favorite.
"Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames. The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft. He gets up, scratching the grey wedge of belly and pubic hair, shuffles to the gas burner, pours leftover coffee in a chipped enamel pan; the flame swathes it in blue. He turns on the tap and urinates in the sink, pulls on his shirt and jeans, his worn boots, stamping the heels against the floor to get them full on. The wind booms down the curved length of the trailer and under its roaring passage he can hear the scratching of fine gravel and sand. It could be bad on the highway with the horse trailer. He has to be packed and away from the place that morning. Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.
The stale coffee is boiling up but he catches it before it goes over the side, pours it into a stained cup and blows on the black liquid, lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong. The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies, leaves a temporary silence."[/i][/color]
Is this part in the short story??? I don't remember it. Please explain.
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Is this part in the short story??? I don't remember it. Please explain.
Hey, aries4118.
It is the opening passage from Annie Proulx’s book-version of BBM. It did not appear in the version of The New Yorker.
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[i]Also, the passage at the beginning is one of my favorite.
"Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames. The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft. He gets up, scratching the grey wedge of belly and pubic hair, shuffles to the gas burner, pours leftover coffee in a chipped enamel pan; the flame swathes it in blue. He turns on the tap and urinates in the sink, pulls on his shirt and jeans, his worn boots, stamping the heels against the floor to get them full on. The wind booms down the curved length of the trailer and under its roaring passage he can hear the scratching of fine gravel and sand. It could be bad on the highway with the horse trailer. He has to be packed and away from the place that morning. Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.
The stale coffee is boiling up but he catches it before it goes over the side, pours it into a stained cup and blows on the black liquid, lets a panel of the dream slide forward. If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong. The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies, leaves a temporary silence."[/i][/color]
Is this part in the short story??? I don't remember it. Please explain.
It's the beginning of the short story...
Jim
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Thanks! I never knew about this! I feel another purchase coming...
T
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Ledger did seem to embody the character of Ennis most convincingly. His acting is indeed a revelation, as his portrayal did add much depth to my interpretation of the character in the original story. Proulx pretty much said that Ledger got into the character more than she ever did.
As for Gyllenhaal, I share Proulx's reaction. Gyllenhaal injected a thoroughly new interpretation to the character of Jack. As Proulx pretty much said, Gyllenhaal is more beautiful than the Jack Twist she had envisioned. This is not Gyllenhaal's fault. But what I come to appreciate very much is the huge amount of sensitivity he overlaid onto the character of Jack. I think his interpretation is as remarkable as Ledger's -- in the sense that he had to reinvent things on his own.
Yes, whenever I think of Ennis and Jack nowadays, I think of Ledger and Gyllenhaal. Their physical appearances are NOT the primary reason. It is the splendid acting that has captured my imagination. Proulx has been magnificently served by these two young actors.
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I saw the movie first, and then read the story. One thing about 'story Jack' is that he is "small". Jake G. is just too tall (and yes, too beautiful). When I first saw 'movie Jack', I had a hard time accepting him in the very beginning.
Maybe last week, I saw 'Elijah Wood' was on some late night show, and it just hit me! -- small, carry some weight in the haunch,......
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I saw the movie first, and then read the story. One thing about 'story Jack' is that he is "small". Jake G. is just too tall (and yes, too beautiful). When I first saw 'movie Jack', I had a hard time accepting him in the very beginning.
Maybe last week, I saw 'Elijah Wood' was on some late night show, and it just hit me! -- small, carry some weight in the haunch,......
I saw the movie first and then read the story. Honestly, Jake and Heath aren't exactly what I have imagined from the story in terms of physical appearances.
Elijah Wood - he will be the hobbits for the rest of my life. See what a movie can do to someone.
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Ledger did seem to embody the character of Ennis most convincingly. His acting is indeed a revelation, as his portrayal did add much depth to my interpretation of the character in the original story. Proulx pretty much said that Ledger got into the character more than she ever did.
As for Gyllenhaal, I share Proulx's reaction. Gyllenhaal injected a thoroughly new interpretation to the character of Jack. As Proulx pretty much said, Gyllenhaal is more beautiful than the Jack Twist she had envisioned. This is not Gyllenhaal's fault. But what I come to appreciate very much is the huge amount of sensitivity he overlaid onto the character of Jack. I think his interpretation is as remarkable as Ledger's -- in the sense that he had to reinvent things on his own.
Yes, whenever I think of Ennis and Jack nowadays, I think of Ledger and Gyllenhaal. Their physical appearances are NOT the primary reason. It is the splendid acting that has captured my imagination. Proulx has been magnificently served by these two young actors.
LMAO, they had to work around his 'beauty'. I agree with what you said tpe, Heath's potrayal was way too real to even attempt to replace him in my imagination. Jake's potrayal added more of a "young, doesn't care about consequences, rebel-type feel" to Jack's character. This to me is was great, because of the sharper personality contrast between Ennis and Jack. Otherwise, it would be a movie about.. well, pretty much two same people with same tastes. Not as fun :/
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Howdy...
Hmmm... well this posting is coming from a hard-of-hearing and visually impaired individual who saw the movie first and only once and then quickly read the original short story by Annie Proulx. I am planning to see BBM again, but you know it is just so powerful that it is nice to simply make friends with other people like me who are just plainly addicted to the story. Anyway, take my opinion in that context.
I have to admit once Heath and Jake were on screen, their images pretty much congealed what the characters would look like to me; however, as I watched the movie ... if I may be so bold, I have to say that Heath was just *SO* perfect as Ennis... the squint, the taciturness, even his mouth hardly moves when he talked... everything about Heath as Ennis was pure Ennis. Even the accent and the silent anger... all the reactions lent themselves to Heath's lankiness to complete the total conviction that he was Ennis.
Jake as Jack was just superb, but there is Jake's pretty boy image that competed with the Annie Proulx's "little heavy in the haunch" Jack... now, I am not saying I am disappointed, but it was a difference; however, it still came off very well.... both YOUNG Jack and YOUNG Ennis are supposed to be in their virile and most good-looking prime of their lives... and to some extent when your hormones are rushing well, handsomeness is kind of in the eye of the beholder and in the arms of circumstances. Besides, Jack Twist later got his "buck teeth" filed down in later life so with the aging makeup and the right clothes, Jake assumed the Jack Twist role just fine.
Now who would I have in mind... well, since I have a most wonderful, strong, silent, stubborn fellow that I married and I have dark hair... well, I think you can figure who I cast into those roles while I was watching the movie (the best that I could) and reading the story.... ;-D
Frank
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I'm reviving an old topic.
I don't know what I invisioned Jack and Ennis to look like when I first read BBM, but I think Jake and Heath created them perfectly.
Now I don't think I could possibly picture anyone else playing Jack and Ennis. It just wouldn't be the same.
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Well done, greenfrog, for reviving this one....
I saw the movie first and then read the SS (the day after) so I didn't know how Annie had described Jack and Ennis initially...which meant that I didn't think about it while watching. I did chuckle a little when I read the description of Jack as clearly Jake G is not what you would picture when you read "short, curly haired, buck-toothed" ??? But....I was so captivated by both Heath and Jake's performances in the movie...so convinced that they were Ennis and Jack....that when I read the story, I saw them, rather than what Annie had pictured. I still do today when reading fanfics.
If the power of an actor's performance can be measured by how much they inhabit the role in the eyes of the viewer - how impossible they make it for the viewer to ever see anyone else in that part - then Heath and Jake gave two of the most powerful performances I have ever seen on the big screen.
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To millions of people now and in the future, they ARE and forever will be Ennis and Jack.
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No one could do justice to the role of Ennis like Ledger did, He IS Ennis del Mar. And Jake broght Jack Twist alive, No , I can't imagine anyone else in these roles other than these two superb actors. Shit, I could'nt tell they were acting.
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=CuYD2cwMbpw
Matt Damon could be in brokeback Mountain, listen to him talking at the end ;)
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The very fact that this forum exists proves the quality and reality of the work of both Jake and Heath. They embodied Jack and Ennis as no one else ever could have. They BECAME the characters, and that's what the fans resonated to. That's why we can't separate them, and why Heath's death was so very painful to us all. While we all know he was not Ennis, we always believed he was because of his convinecability. He had us from the very first scene. He lost his Heathness, put on his Ennisness, and maintained it through to the end of the film. I have never been affected by any acting in any film as I have by these two superb actors, and I guarantee I will never forget a word, a look, a nuance. What a ride this has been!
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I totally agree, they could never be replaced..for me they are the characters...i was effected by this movie just as you were.
But...that's because we only saw the movie with Heath and Jake...you never know if anyone else had toke the part..what would the movie had been like...
I'm not saying that they could be replaced, i'm just saying we never know if anyone else took the part, the movie had became so succesfull as it is now.
No offence just seeing it in more than one way
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The very fact that this forum exists proves the quality and reality of the work of both Jake and Heath. They embodied Jack and Ennis as no one else ever could have. They BECAME the characters, and that's what the fans resonated to. That's why we can't separate them, and why Heath's death was so very painful to us all. While we all know he was not Ennis, we always believed he was because of his convinecability. He had us from the very first scene. He lost his Heathness, put on his Ennisness, and maintained it through to the end of the film. I have never been affected by any acting in any film as I have by these two superb actors, and I guarantee I will never forget a word, a look, a nuance. What a ride this has been!
Agreed.
I think that to those who did not know the story prior to watching the movie, Heath and Jake ARE the characters...
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i havnt read the ss yet but i am going too at some point soon :),
to be honest i thik i will see them as i see them in the film but even in the film i dont see them as heath and jake i see ennis and jack they dont remind me all together of the actors, i suppose thats because emotionally i see ennis and jack as their own people so have started to see them physically as different people, obviously i can tell they are the actors (oh well sorry for my rubbish explenation lol, i think when i read the story even if it said jack and ennis had green skin with purple hair i would see the jack and ennis i am familiar with the ones who i care so much for... i hope i was understandable here, sorry if i wasnt
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i havnt read the ss yet but i am going too at some point soon :),
to be honest i thik i will see them as i see them in the film but even in the film i dont see them as heath and jake i see ennis and jack they dont remind me all together of the actors, i suppose thats because emotionally i see ennis and jack as their own people so have started to see them physically as different people, obviously i can tell they are the actors (oh well sorry for my rubbish explenation lol, i think when i read the story even if it said jack and ennis had green skin with purple hair i would see the jack and ennis i am familiar with the ones who i care so much for... i hope i was understandable here, sorry if i wasnt
You will certainly find significant differences between the portrayals in the film and the ss itself -- especially with Jack. . I would be curious to know your reaction once you have read the ss. :)
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You will certainly find significant differences between the portrayals in the film and the ss itself -- especially with Jack. . I would be curious to know your reaction once you have read the ss. :)
hmm im itching to find out myself
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You know, when I ever I watch BBM, I completely forget that it's Heath. Ennis comes so alive, becomes so real. Heath was absolutely brilliant in this role.
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For me it's a fairly different situation,because I must confess I knew neither Heath nor Jake before BBM.For this reason,their identification with the characters had been greater before my eyes; letting aside,of course,the fact that THEY REALLY ARE ENNIS AND JACK ,for they got giving life to these cowboys in a superb way.Nowadays,for me to some extent their characters are more real than themselves,even if it may sound strange; when I see a pic of a footage's rest,I'm not seeing the actors,but Ennis and Jack indeed.Surely for this,the grief for Heath's death has been greater somehow,because it has been as if both Heath and Ennis had left us.I know this can be a little surrealistic,but it's what I feel...
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For me it's a fairly different situation,because I must confess I knew neither Heath nor Jake before BBM.For this reason,their identification with the characters had been greater before my eyes; letting aside,of course,the fact that THEY REALLY ARE ENNIS AND JACK ,for they got giving life to these cowboys in a superb way.Nowadays,for me to some extent their characters are more real than themselves,even if it may sound strange; when I see a pic of a footage's rest,I'm not seeing the actors,but Ennis and Jack indeed.Surely for this,the grief for Heath's death has been greater somehow,because it has been as if both Heath and Ennis had left us.I know this can be a little surrealistic,but it's what I feel...
me too i see ennis and jack as well ennis and jack not heath and jake. but i think when i read the ss i will see ennis and jack as they were in the film even if that is not heath and jake.
sorry ive probably just confused every one :P
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me too i see ennis and jack as well ennis and jack not heath and jake. but i think when i read the ss i will see ennis and jack as they were in the film even if that is not heath and jake.
sorry ive probably just confused every one :P
You don't need to excuse yourself,Matt,because,in any case,confusion is on my mind much before... (^) I've already read the ss in Spanish translation,but for me there's no change in my appreciation;I keep on seeing Heath and Jake,even if they're not as they're defined there and even if I tried to imagine specially another Jack more similar,I got him in my mind,but I didn't like him as much.
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You don't need to excuse yourself,Matt,because,in any case,confusion is on my mind much before... (^) I've already read the ss in Spanish translation,but for me there's no change in my appreciation;I keep on seeing Heath and Jake,even if they're not as they're defined there and even if I tried to imagine specially another Jack more similar,I got him in my mind,but I didn't like him as much.
yer thats understandable
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For me it's a fairly different situation,because I must confess I knew neither Heath nor Jake before BBM.For this reason,their identification with the characters had been greater before my eyes; letting aside,of course,the fact that THEY REALLY ARE ENNIS AND JACK ,for they got giving life to these cowboys in a superb way.Nowadays,for me to some extent their characters are more real than themselves,even if it may sound strange; when I see a pic of a footage's rest,I'm not seeing the actors,but Ennis and Jack indeed.Surely for this,the grief for Heath's death has been greater somehow,because it has been as if both Heath and Ennis had left us.I know this can be a little surrealistic,but it's what I feel...
The difference I think between them is that Heath fully embodied his role, whereas Jake created/remade his. This is quite clear in the comments made by Proulx...
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well i read the ss last night and despite the discriptions i still when it it said ennis i seen the ennis i know from the film and jack the jack i know from the film. i couldnt think of it anyother way. even though it was telling me jack was slightly hunched over a little over weight i just already have the idea of my jack although towards the ned i began to seperate the film story from the ss altogether i did enjoy the ss though i just didnt find it as powerful as the movie.
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well i read the ss last night and despite the discriptions i still when it it said ennis i seen the ennis i know from the film and jack the jack i know from the film. i couldnt think of it anyother way. even though it was telling me jack was slightly hunched over a little over weight i just already have the idea of my jack although towards the ned i began to seperate the film story from the ss altogether i did enjoy the ss though i just didnt find it as powerful as the movie.
I think the very great difference is that in the ss, Jack was a much more shadowy character -- less emotive, except for the great passage of the Dozy Embrace. I think Jake took this passage as a cue to create his version of Jack -- a version that surprised Proulx, as she herself admitted. I suspect that initially, she wasn't so sure what to make of it. But it was clear that Jake took the character and transformed it into something totally new, that it even surprised the author...
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I think the very great difference is that in the ss, Jack was a much more shadowy character -- less emotive, except for the great passage of the Dozy Embrace. I think Jake took this passage as a cue to create his version of Jack -- a version that surprised Proulx, as she herself admitted. I suspect that initially, she wasn't so sure what to make of it. But it was clear that Jake took the character and transformed it into something totally new, that it even surprised the author...
hmmm i liked jakes version better :)
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Well, she said that it was not what she had excepted. :)
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What I find interesting is how the actors' personalities are similar in many ways to those of the characters. When I saw them on Oprah, Jake came across as more outgoing and talkative, smiled more, and seemed to embody Jack - the idealist, the dreamer. Whereas Heath was very shy, just like Ennis, and a person of very few words. The best relationships are made up of a yin and a yang - two opposites that come together to create a whole. Once I read the ss I could alter the actors' appearances slightly in my imagination but not much. They both did a superb job and deserved Oscars IMO. Didn't I read somewhere that when Annie Proulx signed Heath's copy of the screenplay she wrote "to Ennis" instead of "to Heath" and then kept it that way because she said he WAS Ennis as she had imagined him? Now that's high praise.
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What I find interesting is how the actors' personalities are similar in many ways to those of the characters. When I saw them on Oprah, Jake came across as more outgoing and talkative, smiled more, and seemed to embody Jack - the idealist, the dreamer. Whereas Heath was very shy, just like Ennis, and a person of very few words. The best relationships are made up of a yin and a yang - two opposites that come together to create a whole. Once I read the ss I could alter the actors' appearances slightly in my imagination but not much. They both did a superb job and deserved Oscars IMO. Didn't I read somewhere that when Annie Proulx signed Heath's copy of the screenplay she wrote "to Ennis" instead of "to Heath" and then kept it that way because she said he WAS Ennis as she had imagined him? Now that's high praise.
I loved your post..Its so true..Thanks Hippiewannabe ^f^ :)
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Interesting question and topic Ethan.
I have watched the film too many times before reading the book. As I have watched the film so many times and have seen so many videos of Ennis and Jack on youtube.com previously, in my mind Ennis and Jack were always Heath and Jake…
When I finally read the book even I noticed the part where it is mentioned that Jack had curly hair and other descriptions which were honestly different from the physical appearance of Heath and Jake…However, I ignored that part because to me Heath and Jake were so strongly interpreting as Ennis and Jack that the physical appearance part did not matter at all to me…
They brought life to Ennis and Jack..It feells like Ennis and Jake lived and we all have been a witness to their lives..
I think that the power of Heath’s and Jake’s performance mesmerized me so much that I can see Ennis and Jack in them and they will always be my “Ennis and “Jack”
$) <^( :f)
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What I find interesting is how the actors' personalities are similar in many ways to those of the characters. When I saw them on Oprah, Jake came across as more outgoing and talkative, smiled more, and seemed to embody Jack - the idealist, the dreamer. Whereas Heath was very shy, just like Ennis, and a person of very few words. The best relationships are made up of a yin and a yang - two opposites that come together to create a whole. Once I read the ss I could alter the actors' appearances slightly in my imagination but not much. They both did a superb job and deserved Oscars IMO. Didn't I read somewhere that when Annie Proulx signed Heath's copy of the screenplay she wrote "to Ennis" instead of "to Heath" and then kept it that way because she said he WAS Ennis as she had imagined him? Now that's high praise.
I think both of them put a great deal of their real selves into their characters. In a way, it affected both of them deeply. Whether or not they embody the characters of the ss as Proulx envisioned it, I think both of them have now made it their own.
I should note again Proulx's comment that Jake's realization of Jack Twist was not exactly what she envisioned --an admission that the more emotive Jack Twist owed more to Jake's characterization more than to Proulx herself. As I have said before, those of us who know all of Jake's roles throughout the years recognize Jack Twist as coming from a line of great emotive (and, frequently, disturbed) characters. Jack in the movie owes more to Jake's Art than to anything else -- and Proulx recognized it as such.
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I think both of them put a great deal of their real selves into their characters. In a way, it affected both of them deeply. Whether or not they embody the characters of the ss as Proulx envisioned it, I think both of them have now made it their own.
I should note again Proulx's comment that Jake's realization of Jack Twist was not exactly what she envisioned --an admission that the more emotive Jack Twist owed more to Jake's characterization more than to Proulx herself. As I have said before, those of us who know all of Jake's roles throughout the years recognize Jack Twist as coming from a line of great emotive (and, frequently, disturbed) characters. Jack in the movie owes more to Jake's Art than to anything else -- and Proulx recognized it as such.
I think that it is a great compliment for Jake from Annie...Jake got a more sensitive and emotional dimension to Jack’s Character. I think an Artist can really add his own contribution to the Character making the Character more versatile and technically adding his own vulnerabilities and strengths to the Character…Jake has given us a Jack that feels so real..He has contributed his own emotional expression to the Character with whom we can relate to...Its not just a character from a story but it is like he was a real person who loved Ennis…I can never imagine Jack as anyone else but Jake…Am in love with him...What touches me the most is the combination of passion as well as warmth and he speaks through his eyes, gestures and words…
Heath was just perfect for Ennis…He understood Ennis too well and he was simply marvelous in that role
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I think that it is a great compliment for Jake from Annie...Jake got a more sensitive and emotional dimension to Jack’s Character. I think an Artist can really add his own contribution to the Character making the Character more versatile and technically adding his own vulnerabilities and strengths to the Character…Jake has given us a Jack that feels so real..He has contributed his own emotional expression to the Character with whom we can relate to...Its not just a character from a story but it is like he was a real person who loved Ennis…I can never imagine Jack as anyone else but Jake…Am in love with him...What touches me the most is the combination of passion as well as warmth and he speaks through his eyes, gestures and words…
Heath was just perfect for Ennis…He understood Ennis too well and he was simply marvelous in that role
Well, I think Proulx and Diana understood the ss as a story primarily about Ennis -- in spite of the very beautiful valedictory Proulx werote for Jack clocse to the end of the movie (perhaps the only place in the ss where we really catch a glimpse of Jack's character). Jake's portrayal changed the balance completely: it became a story about Ennis AND Jack. Whereas Jack in the ss was very shadowy and obscure/mysterious, Jake's Jack is all flesh and blood -- body, sinews, and heart. He enfleshed Jack in a way that was -- rightly -- completely his own.
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Well, I think Proulx and Diana understood the ss as a story primarily about Ennis -- in spite of the very beautiful valedictory Proulx werote for Jack clocse to the end of the movie (perhaps the only place in the ss where we really catch a glimpse of Jack's character). Jake's portrayal changed the balance completely: it became a story about Ennis AND Jack. Whereas Jack in the ss was very shadowy and obscure/mysterious, Jake's Jack is all flesh and blood -- body, sinews, and heart. He enfleshed Jack in a way that was -- rightly -- completely his own.
Excellent observation…ya, the SS focuses on Ennis and mentions alot of things from Ennis perspective....And in the film Jack’s character shared an impactful screen space and it was not at all sidelined... I think Jake has done complete justice to the role and so Jack was as well observed and important in the film as Ennis..
The film showed the perspective of Ennis and Jack and we could relate to what was happening to both of them as we could see things from both point of views and so could empathize with both in different ways...The adapted screenplay was remarkable and did contribute to making Jack's Character more focused..
I also think it was Jake's natural acting skills and to completely submerge himself in Jack’s Character made a huge difference...
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It is also interesting to see the screenplay change over time. The addition of so many scenes not explicitly mentioned in the ss was very creative and tastefully done. One gets a sense of the protagonists being real flesh and blood. It is true, nonetheless, that the character of jack needed a larger filling-in, given that we wasn't exactly as big a presence in the ss as he was in the movie...
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It is also interesting to see the screenplay change over time. The addition of so many scenes not explicitly mentioned in the ss was very creative and tastefully done. One gets a sense of the protagonists being real flesh and blood. It is true, nonetheless, that the character of jack needed a larger filling-in, given that we wasn't exactly as big a presence in the ss as he was in the movie...
The addition of SNIT in the film was amazing..I think that added a different dimension to the film..It actually showed a very caring, emotional and gentle side of both of them..Even though we know that in the SS, adding the SNIT in the film made us more attracted towards it and made us see their emotional side more clearly...
I think that it was needed to show Jack in a bigger picture and that made the film more complete..I mean to say that Jack was a very important character as he was the reason why Ennis found true love and Ennis followed his heart and for whom Ennis broke all boundaries during FNIT and SNIT..In the movie it was very important to show things from Jacks' perspective too as that made the audience relate to the film for both of them...
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I'm VERY thankful Ang picked them. I know I wouldn't be interested in the way AP described them. I don't think it would've worked for most women.
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The addition of SNIT in the film was amazing..I think that added a different dimension to the film..It actually showed a very caring, emotional and gentle side of both of them..Even though we know that in the SS, adding the SNIT in the film made us more attracted towards it and made us see their emotional side more clearly...
I think that it was needed to show Jack in a bigger picture and that made the film more complete..I mean to say that Jack was a very important character as he was the reason why Ennis found true love and Ennis followed his heart and for whom Ennis broke all boundaries during FNIT and SNIT..In the movie it was very important to show things from Jacks' perspective too as that made the audience relate to the film for both of them...
Yes, Ias I have said many times, BBM the film is much more lyrical than the ss, and I believe that Jack's character has a great deal to do with this. And yes, Jack is much more important in the film than in the ss. Jake's Jack complements Heath's Ennis most beautifully...
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I'm VERY thankful Ang picked them. I know I wouldn't be interested in the way AP described them. I don't think it would've worked for most women.
I think I understand what you mean here. The visceral element in the ss would not have appealed to a lot of people had it been literally translated cinematically. The genius of the director and writers was to know how to adapt it -- with the added lyrical and emotive touches, softening the effect, but not making the material any less powerful and compelling.
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Yes, Ias I have said many times, BBM the film is much more lyrical than the ss, and I believe that Jack's character has a great deal to do with this. And yes, Jack is much more important in the film than in the ss. Jake's Jack complements Heath's Ennis most beautifully...
I am glad that Jack was given a lot of importance in the film...It was required and I think that it made the film more complete…In the last scene when Ennis holds both the shirts it showed how much he loved and missed Jack...I think even that scene was as much as to do with Ennis and it was to do with Jack. I mean we think of both of them and not just Ennis...in that scene we keep Jack in our minds and just realize the extent of his love…At the same we also see how much Ennis loves him...so I think that the final scene belonged to both of them and shows both their perspective and emotions… the entire film was a real depiction of true and pure love between both of them…
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I think Heath and Jake embodied a less symbolic, more true-to-life Ennis and Jack. I for one seem to think of them (in part, at least) as metaphors in the ss. They stand for things bigger than themselves. Jack in particular is intriguingly (as well as maddeningly) abstract in the ss. The fleshing out of the characters do give us a feeling of something "in the round". And yes, there is a completeness embodied -- not really in the symbolic level, but in the narrative sense. We feel that in the film, we can and do get to know them as PERSONS. That alone is an achievement.
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I think Heath and Jake embodied a less symbolic, more true-to-life Ennis and Jack. I for one seem to think of them (in part, at least) as metaphors in the ss. They stand for things bigger than themselves. Jack in particular is intriguingly (as well as maddeningly) abstract in the ss. The fleshing out of the characters do give us a feeling of something "in the round". And yes, there is a completeness embodied -- not really in the symbolic level, but in the narrative sense. We feel that in the film, we can and do get to know them as PERSONS. That alone is an achievement.
I agree with ya, Thomas...We can feel them as alive and not a just 2 characters from a story…Jake and Heath related to Jack and Ennis too well. I think Heath literally lived the character of Ennis..Jake on the other hand did understand Jack too well and he gave a more emotional and versatile touch to the Character….I think that we actually see Ennis and Jack in front of our minds eye so many times and that picture is so well intact in our head and hearts...I cant imagine any other character or image except them both when I refer to BBM…The adaptation of the SS is simply brilliant…It is so touching that Jack and Ennis r too real for us and always will be..
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Which is why -- personally -- a remake will not work. I can imagine them remaking this movie in the distant future. Such a remake may be just as beautifully done, but perhaps it will be made for some future generation in a more enlightened time, who will not easily understand the world we live in and why this movie made the impact that it did. Which is why I think Jake's and Heath's interpretations will always be appreciated -- because they knew and lived the times we are now in, and brought to their Art this fuller understanding, and how it spoke to us in a time of half-lights and shadows.
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Which is why -- personally -- a remake will not work. I can imagine them remaking this movie in the distant future. Such a remake may be just as beautifully done, but perhaps it will be made for some future generation in a more enlightened time, who will not easily understand the world we live in and why this movie made the impact that it did. Which is why I think Jake's and Heath's interpretations will always be appreciated -- because they knew and lived the times we are now in, and brought to their Art this fuller understanding, and how it spoke to us in a time of half-lights and shadows.
I have never deeply thought about the remake...I think the future generation will be more open minded and tolerent towards Ennis and Jack..Ennis and Jack lived in a time where Homosexuality was treated as the worst offence...The 60's and 70's was a really bad time for many people like Ennis and Jack...It was a very extreme time..now in the 21st century the genration is still orthodox ..I can still see injustice even in our times and that is why we understand their trials so well as we see this even now..we see so many people fighting for their rights even now but I have to say that it is still better than the 60s and 70s...For. e.g in the film shelter , even though the Zack recieved criticim for being gay he eventually was able to have the courage and live the life the way he wanted to and it was comparactively safer as it would have been for Ennis and Jack as they were belonged to the 60's..Now the coming generation (after about 20 years) will be having a more human approach towards this and they will not have a complete picture of the pains and suffering people went through previously as it will be a more liberal and broadminded generation.. people will be more empathic and less evaluative..they will see love breaking all barriers created by man....
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I have asked myself sometimes whether BBM will appear dated to a more tolerant (and perhaps more jaded) generation of the future. Will Heath and Jake appear to them as dated interpreters?
I tend to think NOT. I think the representation of love is universal and timeless, and that both of them gave flesh to the love of Ennis and Jack that is also timeless and universal...
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I have asked myself sometimes whether BBM will appear dated to a more tolerant (and perhaps more jaded) generation of the future. Will Heath and Jake appear to them as dated interpreters?
I tend to think NOT. I think the representation of love is universal and timeless, and that both of them gave flesh to the love of Ennis and Jack that is also timeless and universal...
I think that Ennis and Jack will be admired and appreciated by many generations..I think that the future generations will be really sad to be how Ennis and jack were treated by the previous generations…they also would feel that earlier the approach towards such topics were not very human…I think that they will love Ennis and Jack and will empathize with them…We have felt the impact more though as we have actually seen all this happening around the world today but in future generations which I am hopeful will be more tolerant and open minded will see Ennis and jack as 2 great people in history and see their love as a symbol of selflessness and purity…
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Certainly, you are right in the the sense that their interpretation of the characters will probably take these future viewers out of their comfort zones. We, who are probably more desensitized to various forms of discrimination (as if some of us subconsciously still expect it), can only imagine how such a situation that confronted Ennis and Jack would look totally preposterous to the future generations. It stands as a artifact to how much we as a society we still had to go.
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The characters of Jack and Ennis are the first roles of Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger I have ever seen. In fact, I first saw them in Oprah show where they introduced the movie. They were just "some American actors" for me at the time, even I found‘em both very cute. Wasn't even eager to watch the movie. ~)
First time I saw the movie, I liked it a lot, but I skipped the beginning, cause I was not interested at all in this movie, so I turn to BBM only when some other film was over.
Months later Heath died so tragically (RIP dear), and I felt for him. :\'(
Anyway, second time the movie was on TV, I just fell a sleep in front of TV, woke up to watch AT THE VERY SAME PART as the first time – when Aguirre was watching them from the distance.
The next day I was curious how this two young man got involved at first time, and I found some clips from youtube. Very quickly I became addicted. As much it was hurtful, it was also necessary to see it. As much as I liked it, I also suffered. As much as I accepted, I also fought against it. My mind and my life become a big mess, but you already know it! :ghug:
But let me go back to the theme – this is the first movie I saw two actors in. And they are the PERFECT Ennis & PERFECT Jack!
I think that they had that “something”, that very necessary charm and chemistry, that contrast between them, who put them perfectly together like yin and yang… even we don’t know who is yin, and who is yang, because they were never labeled woman- man characteristics!
If there is a remake one day, I believe it will never ever be so sweet and sour as this first movie is. The timing, the circumstances, the director, and above all - Jake and Heath - make this movie a master of masterpieces! That’s why Jake and Heath will always be Jack and Ennis in my mind!
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Beautiful post,Loreen¡ :clap: BBM was also the first Heath and Jake's movie I'd never seen,so I admit that the identification has been stronger for this reason.But,moreover,the capacity of both actors of transforming themselves into their roles is so great that I suppose that nobody can really imagine others actors,as great as they could be,being Ennis and Jack.
Even if,mainly in Jakes case,his look is very different from the S.S. Jack,he gets to reinvent the character,putting a lot of himself,but you can never say; Look, he's Jake Gyllenhaal playing a cowboy¡.He's like a completely different person from the very moment he wear his clothes-I don't know if this makes sense...-.And Heath is converting himself into Ennis Del Mar with a chameleon's capacity too,always transforming and adapting his character.In sum,I think they're so identified with Ennis and Jack that when Heath passed away,it was for me as if Ennis has gone too; tell me stupid,but it's what I felt... :\'(
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Beautiful post,Loreen¡ :clap: BBM was also the first Heath and Jake's movie I'd never seen,so I admit that the identification has been stronger for this reason.But,moreover,the capacity of both actors of transforming themselves into their roles is so great that I suppose that nobody can really imagine others actors,as great as they could be,being Ennis and Jack.
Even if,mainly in Jakes case,his look is very different from the S.S. Jack,he gets to reinvent the character,putting a lot of himself,but you can never say; Look, he's Jake Gyllenhaal playing a cowboy¡.He's like a completely different person from the very moment he wear his clothes-I don't know if this makes sense...-.And Heath is converting himself into Ennis Del Mar with a chameleon's capacity too,always transforming and adapting his character.In sum,I think they're so identified with Ennis and Jack that when Heath passed away,it was for me as if Ennis has gone too; tell me stupid,but it's what I felt... :\'(
Myprivatejack :t) ^f^ ,
I know what you mean, and I agree with you! About both of them!
I once wrote that BBM make me so so sad because after Heath died it seems like both of them are gone. Jack in the movie and Ennis in the life screenplay. :\'( :\'( :\'(
I've also read that Jake G. put a Heath's photo on the prison wall, when acting in a movie, in the same way prisoners put the photos of their beloved ones. Everyone found it hillarious! But now, when Heath's gone, it is not funny any more.
Anyway it showes how these two guys were really attached to the roles of E&J!
*o) I believe that Jake had a hard time after loosing his dear friend.
^f^
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Certainly, you are right in the the sense that their interpretation of the characters will probably take these future viewers out of their comfort zones. We, who are probably more desensitized to various forms of discrimination (as if some of us subconsciously still expect it), can only imagine how such a situation that confronted Ennis and Jack would look totally preposterous to the future generations. It stands as a artifact to how much we as a society we still had to go.
I think for the future genaration this film will be impactful as they will belong to a time where there will be more rights and equality to all..they will be so broken to see Ennis and Jack victim of an older time where they had to hide their love..They will realize the cruelty of the world and hopefully will be more mature , tolerant and acceptable to a more equal world
Being personally straight, I have never experineced such discrimintaion myself but I have seen incidents around that it makes me feel horrible....people just love holding on to prejudices and baseless opinions.....Some people even today face death threats and worse.... I can understand Ennis and Jack so very well...I can feel their pain...
I feel more of such films should be made in our generation itself and am sure the coming generations will appreciate it too..Ennis and Jack will be loved and cherished by all generations..
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If there is a remake one day, I believe it will never ever be so sweet and sour as this first movie is. The timing, the circumstances, the director, and above all - Jake and Heath - make this movie a master of masterpieces! That’s why Jake and Heath will always be Jack and Ennis in my mind!
I definitely feel the same way, Loreen. :)
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I think for the future genaration this film will be impactful as they will belong to a time where there will be more rights and equality to all..they will be so broken to see Ennis and Jack victim of an older time where they had to hide their love..They will realize the cruelty of the world and hopefully will be more mature , tolerant and acceptable to a more equal world
Being personally straight, I have never experineced such discrimintaion myself but I have seen incidents around that it makes me feel horrible....people just love holding on to prejudices and baseless opinions.....Some people even today face death threats and worse.... I can understand Ennis and Jack so very well...I can feel their pain...
I feel more of such films should be made in our generation itself and am sure the coming generations will appreciate it too..Ennis and Jack will be loved and cherished by all generations..
I think that one of the most powerful and convincing aspects of this movie is that it reached out to everybody -- gay and straight. It really took the theme of love and kept it universal. I think a large measure of this can be attributed to Heath and Jake's approach to the roles. They saw it as a love story -- first and foremost. If they didn't exactly fit the descriptions in the ss, then that is secondary. They captured the universality of the subject matter perfectly.
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I think that one of the most powerful and convincing aspects of this movie is that it reached out to everybody -- gay and straight. It really took the theme of love and kept it universal. I think a large measure of this can be attributed to Heath and Jake's approach to the roles. They saw it as a love story -- first and foremost. If they didn't exactly fit the descriptions in the ss, then that is secondary. They captured the universality of the subject matter perfectly.
I completely agree with ya Thomas...I think this film has had an impact on people irrespective of their sexual orientation…It is a pure love story..It is as simple as that and we can see that cleary..All that mattered was so much true love and love that could shake mountains..People saw and felt the suffering of Ennis and Jack and could relate that to many people who r even suffering today…Today people can identify with the Pain of Ennis and Jack whether they are themselves gay or straight as they see love which broke all ties made by man.....I am sure any film that will be made on similar lines in future and which will speak of true love will touch people’s heart and they will love the film..
Heath and Jake really saw the love between 2 people as so warm, affectionate, real and genuine..They related the pain and traumas of Ennis and Jack and so could do complete justice to their roles..We will always be gratelful to them for giving us Ennis and Jack
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I think the secret of their success in their respective roles is that each of them truly knows/knew what it means to love. It spilled over to their Art -- it informs their very actions.
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I think the secret of their success in their respective roles is that each of them truly knows/knew what it means to love. It spilled over to their Art -- it informs their very actions.
I think they r very empathic as people and they can relate to a situation and a person very well..they submerged themselves into the character which is simply beautiful…That’s a skill many actors possess…I read the SS after watching the film and I was literally imagining the scene as I was watching the film...That much Heath and Jake as Ennis and Jack have impacted me…Its just them on my minds.,..The credit goes to Ang too as he was able to help them portray it to their best abilities. When I read the story, the mountains, the rivers and places flash in my mind…That shows the brilliance of Ang to present the film so very well…
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I think they r very empathic as people and they can relate to a situation and a person very well..they submerged themselves into the character which is simply beautiful…That’s a skill many actors possess…I read the SS after watching the film and I was literally imagining the scene as I was watching the film...That much Heath and Jake as Ennis and Jack have impacted me…Its just them on my minds.,..The credit goes to Ang too as he was able to help them portray it to their best abilities. When I read the story, the mountains, the rivers and places flash in my mind…That shows the brilliance of Ang to present the film so very well…
I believe that aspects of Ennis and Jack are based off of Heath and Jake. In Jake's case, I am almost sure it is true -- the pure emotiveness and subtlety. In the case of Heath, I think he draws a great deal from some hidden suffering. In either case, perhaps there is more to the characters than first meets the eye.
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I believe that aspects of Ennis and Jack are based off of Heath and Jake. In Jake's case, I am almost sure it is true -- the pure emotiveness and subtlety. In the case of Heath, I think he draws a great deal from some hidden suffering. In either case, perhaps there is more to the characters than first meets the eye.
:clap: So true!
As I already said:I love the way you think! ^f^
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I believe that aspects of Ennis and Jack are based off of Heath and Jake. In Jake's case, I am almost sure it is true -- the pure emotiveness and subtlety. In the case of Heath, I think he draws a great deal from some hidden suffering. In either case, perhaps there is more to the characters than first meets the eye.
Thankyou Thomas ^f^…I really believe that Jake is a very emotive person..As Hippiewannabe previously said that Jake is more outgoing and that can be seen in Jacks’ Character….When u spoke about Heaths hidden suffering I remembered his death and I remembered his own personal sufferings..I think that he was going through a hard time before he died....And as a person I think he is a little reserved...Thats my opinion...I may be wrong….he felt the pain of Ennis so very deeply that he literally lived being Ennis…I think as an actor that’s the greatest contribution one can give to a role..I think it was more than just a role for heath..He related to the miseries and struggles of Ennis like they were his own…
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Thankyou Thomas ^f^…I really believe that Jake is a very emotive person..As Hippiewannabe previously said that Jake is more outgoing and that can be seen in Jacks’ Character….When u spoke about Heaths hidden suffering I remembered his death and I remembered his own personal sufferings..I think that he was going through a hard time before he died....And as a person I think he is a little reserved...Thats my opinion...I may be wrong….he felt the pain of Ennis so very deeply that he literally lived being Ennis…I think as an actor that’s the greatest contribution one can give to a role..I think it was more than just a role for heath..He related to the miseries and struggles of Ennis like they were his own…
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Well said Cleo! Heath's role looks so natural, as we can not distinct him form Ennis. He entered into the character as he was Ennis. Or at least had a many connections inside himself with Ennis! %) Heath! RIP "my beautiful boy"! :\'(
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Thanks friends. Yes, I agree that actors sometimes internalize their roles so much that it sometimes becomes more than personal. It is both a strength and a flaw. One always hope that in the ideal situation, an artist can take himself out of his Art at will, but we know for a fact that this is never completely the case. An artist is thus both great and flawed at the same time because of it. DO we believe the Greek dictum of not breaking the veil that separates Art from reality? Again, that really is just an ideal, strictly speaking.
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Thankyou Loreen and Thomas..I always appreciate your feedback :)
I agree with what u both have said ^f^
Thomas : Can you please explain what the "Greek dictum of not breaking the veil that separates Art from reality" means?
Thankyou :)
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Thankyou Loreen and Thomas..I always appreciate your feedback :)
I agree with what u both have said ^f^
Thomas : Can you please explain what the "Greek dictum of not breaking the veil that separates Art from reality" means?
Thankyou :)
OT: oh, there is a "rule" (given is Aristotle's Poetics? -- I can' remember exactly right now) where good actors never cross over from the make-believe world of the stage and the real world of the audience. For example, in the plays of the Roman comic writer Plautus, he deliberately breaks this rule (for comic effect) by making the actors pause and talk directly with the audience!