Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Glynn on Jun 29, 2006, 04:12 AM
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hiya
was it some silent message like body language...say when Jack first seen Ennis on the steps of the place where they first met...was it the shyness that gave Jack the answer to Ennis sexuality....
so if this is the case he knew from the beginning...
what do you all think....?
Glynn xx
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Hello Glynn. Whether or not we believe in "gaydar", I do think there is something to be said about subtle or coded body language.
Sometimes, I do think such protocols can be subconsciously driven, triggered perhaps by some primordial instinct or mating pattern in early humans.
But to be sure, sometimes, we just take a chance.
I will not be too confessional here, but I do think sometimes, our attraction gets the better of us and we proceed to act in a "hell come what may" attitude. Even in the cities, this can be dangerous, but we sometimes do it nonetheless as a calculated risk. At stake is our own personal desires.
Perhaps this was the case with Jack...
Perhaps not...
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I think that Jack had seen something in Ennis's eyes when he looked at him - almost like he was seeing a mirror of what he was feeling himself. There's been lots of discussion elsewhere about the flirting that went on - such as the slightest of touches between them when Ennis got back to camp after coming across the bear, Jack fooling around to make Ennis laugh, Ennis's "you may be a sinner" speech and so on - and I think all of that contibuted to Jack feeling like he could make a move.
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I think that Jack had seen something in Ennis's eyes when he looked at him - almost like he was seeing a mirror of what he was feeling himself. There's been lots of discussion elsewhere about the flirting that went on - such as the slightest of touches between them when Ennis got back to camp after coming across the bear, Jack fooling around to make Ennis laugh, Ennis's "you may be a sinner" speech and so on - and I think all of that contibuted to Jack feeling like he could make a move.
I agree. Also, remember the "the most I've spoke in a year" scene? That was a really telling scene, because it showed that Ennis was comfortable enough to open up to Jack, and felt he could talk about his family and I think he was glad and that he wanted to. I'm not saying that was a clear indication to Jack that there was something more sexual going on, but it was certainly a move beyond friendship, and Jack was obviously attracted to Ennis, and all of their close contact and talks by the campfire just emphasised that to him. Jack was drunk when he made a move too, remember. That always helps to give you a bit of extra courage to do something you wouldnt normally do if you were sober.
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I think that Jack had seen something in Ennis's eyes when he looked at him - almost like he was seeing a mirror of what he was feeling himself. There's been lots of discussion elsewhere about the flirting that went on - such as the slightest of touches between them when Ennis got back to camp after coming across the bear, Jack fooling around to make Ennis laugh, Ennis's "you may be a sinner" speech and so on - and I think all of that contibuted to Jack feeling like he could make a move.
I agree. Also, remember the "the most I've spoke in a year" scene? That was a really telling scene, because it showed that Ennis was comfortable enough to open up to Jack, and felt he could talk about his family and I think he was glad and that he wanted to. I'm not saying that was a clear indication to Jack that there was something more sexual going on, but it was certainly a move beyond friendship, and Jack was obviously attracted to Ennis, and all of their close contact and talks by the campfire just emphasised that to him. Jack was drunk when he made a move too, remember. That always helps to give you a bit of extra courage to do something you wouldnt normally do if you were sober.
Hmm, I'm not convinced Jack was drunk, actually. Ennis certainly was, but when Jack gets up to get the extra blanket for Ennis he walks completely normally (unlike Ennis's poor attempts to stand up!) and he also speaks normally when he's talking about Ennis freezing to death out there. I don't think he was completely sober, but I think he was completely in control of his actions.....
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hiya
I think it was obvious from the moment he was shaving and seen Ennis on the steps through his mirror...almost like he was figuring him out...Jack knew then...and it also was like past experience shining through....
I also note that Jack in the tent the first night was not going to take no for an answer it was like this will go my way...I understand you Ennis....but what I also noticed was that Jack to me appeared surprised when Ennis turned him on his stomach...as though it was Jack that wanted to be the dominant one and maybe this threw Jack and made him fall in love with him...someone being a bit more powerful than he had expected....
yes there is always a hint of unspoken words like a gaydar when it comes to fine tuning into other gay men or even women...but it is harder for the gay community because signs can be misread....so it throws most of us back into a closet type situation....
glynn xx
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Hi, Glynn, thanks for bringing up a really fascinating topic. I feel like the attraction between Ennis and Jack is implied by a lot of different interactions, as christie and NoReins both pointed out. Part of what we love about Jack is his self-confidence and daring--I think his bullriding kind of symbolizes that aspect of his personality. But Ennis definitely gives him lots of different signs. Maybe one important difference between them is that Jack knew where he was going and what he wanted to happen, while Ennis maybe recognized that he really liked Jack and even that he was attracted to him, but didn't really know what might happen as a result. For me the question is also the flip side of what you asked--would Ennis have made a move on Jack if Jack hadn't? I don't think so. But of course we do have him entering the tent to seek out Jack during SNIT . . . only after Jack came onto him during FNIT. Hmm. I'm getting a little OT here, but thanks for raising some thought-provoking ideas! peace, shieldmaid
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Wonderful discussion everyone. Thank you. And yes, "You may be a sinner..." should be listed among the scenes with a strong double meaning. The context is clear enough.
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Wonderful discussion everyone. Thank you. And yes, "You may be a sinner..." should be listed among the scenes with a strong double meaning. The context is clear enough.
Absolutely, tpe--that is one of my favorite interactions between them. The fact that Ennis says, " . . . I ain't yet had the opportunity" can only mean that he was looking for such a chance!
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Wonderful discussion everyone. Thank you. And yes, "You may be a sinner..." should be listed among the scenes with a strong double meaning. The context is clear enough.
Absolutely, tpe--that is one of my favorite interactions between them. The fact that Ennis says, " . . . I ain't yet had the opportunity" can only mean that he was looking for such a chance!
So yes, you do believe that Ennis also lead Jack on, perhaps in a subconscious way. How could he not have sent subtle signals? It was deep inside him -- this attraction to Jack. He needed a catalyst. Jack and pure chance gave him that.
Fortune often favors the reckless.
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Jack was definitely attracted to Ennis from the first moment (looking at him in the rearview mirror, pretending not to notice when Ennis washed up).
And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him. Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place. Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack. Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling). Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).
Also, in the short story, it states that both Ennis and Jack slept in the tent the first night on the mountain. Then Ennis was the camp tender and slept in the tent. Even though Ennis and Jack had switched jobs, it still would have made sense for Ennis to sleep in the tent if he was too drunk to go up to the sheep.
I think Ennis chose to sleep outside the tent when he was drunk because he was afraid of what might happen. And, Jack was pretty good at reading Ennis by that point. I think Jack knew that Ennis was too afraid to make the first move, so he just did. It didn't take too much effort on Jack's part for Ennis to comply, because it was what they both wanted.
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Jack was definitely attracted to Ennis from the first moment (looking at him in the rearview mirror, pretending not to notice when Ennis washed up).
And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him. Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place. Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack. Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling). Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).
Also, in the short story, it states that both Ennis and Jack slept in the tent the first night on the mountain. Then Ennis was the camp tender and slept in the tent. Even though Ennis and Jack had switched jobs, it still would have made sense for Ennis to sleep in the tent if he was too drunk to go up to the sheep.
I think Ennis chose to sleep outside the tent when he was drunk because he was afraid of what might happen. And, Jack was pretty good at reading Ennis by that point. I think Jack knew that Ennis was too afraid to make the first move, so he just did. It didn't take too much effort on Jack's part for Ennis to comply, because it was what they both wanted.
jesseanne21, this is quite a wonderful deduction. It is certainly plausible. I love it.
Thank you.
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I was wondering the other day, if Jack hadn't been confident to make a move on Ennis, would they have gotten together at all?
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I was wondering the other day, if Jack hadn't been confident to make a move on Ennis, would they have gotten together at all?
I think they would have. I think even if Jack hadn't been confident enough at that point, their friendship would have continued to grow and sooner or later it would have become intimate. Call it fate or destiny or whatever you want - some things are just meant to be.
We have a saying here in Scotland - what's for ye will no' go by ye. It means that if something is your destiny, it will happen somehow, and that's what I feel about Ennis and Jack's relationship.
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It's implied in the movie too that ennis is drunk where Jack is at least less so. Therefore if Jack had made his move and Ennis had rebuffed him, he had a ready-made excuse - drunk out of my mind, didn't know what I was doing.
And "reckless" is a good word; given all that had gone before, and that they'd been up there on their own for some time and were only nineteen ( anyone remember nineteen?) Jack may well have thought, "To hell with it, it's worth a try". I don't think love was involved at this point - that came later.
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Hmm, i also think that from the opening scenes Jack had an indication of what a closed person Ennis could be, and the initial days on the mountain when conversation was a little stilted between them reinforced that for him. When he finally realised Ennis was opening up to him and they were forging a friendship, even a closeness, he must have known he had achieved something very special - getting under Ennis' skin, getting through the barrier Ennis surrounded himself with.
Jack took a chance but i don't think it was a foolhardy one. He had enough trust in the fledging relationship they had to take the next step, and turned out - he was right to try.
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It's implied in the movie too that ennis is drunk where Jack is at least less so. Therefore if Jack had made his move and Ennis had rebuffed him, he had a ready-made excuse - drunk out of my mind, didn't know what I was doing.
And "reckless" is a good word; given all that had gone before, and that they'd been up there on their own for some time and were only nineteen ( anyone remember nineteen?) Jack may well have thought, "To hell with it, it's worth a try". I don't think love was involved at this point - that came later.
Yes, that time was certainly an opportune moment. Well, they could have used being drunk as an excuse for the morning after. But they didn't! Jack's first words: "See you for supper." It must have deeply disturbed Ennis.
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There were so many subtle and not so subtle clues (you may be a sinner)...Jack was very intuitive and tuned in.
When you are interested in something, anything...you tend to zoom in and focus and pick up on these clues. If it were someone with no attraction to Ennis and no connection, those clues may have gone unnoticed. When Jack felt he had properly read all the signs, he got him liquored up, much more so then he was...and moved in for the kill. He had it planned for a long time and didnt bat an eye when Ennis refused to come in the tent initially...Jack was just waiting for the right opportunity.
On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed.
When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit. Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".
Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!
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In fact the only discussion they had, up on the mountain, involved denying the fact that they were queer. Neither was entrely comfortable in that discussion - I don't think Jack knew he'd done the right thing till Ennis came voluntarily and as far as we know stone-cold sober into the tent.
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On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed.
When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit. Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".
Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!
Love your entire post gimmejack but this i think is a wonderful observation, one i hadn't noticed! It makes perfect sense - thanks for pointing it out, i will be looking for it now!
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On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed.
When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit. Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".
Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!
Love your entire post gimmejack but this i think is a wonderful observation, one i hadn't noticed! It makes perfect sense - thanks for pointing it out, i will be looking for it now!
Yes, thanks gimmejack, I hadn't noticed that either.I mean, I'd noticed Jack giving Ennis the bottle, rather than pouring the whiskey into the cup, but I'd never picked up on the significance of it before. I wonder if there'll ever be a day when we've finally dissected every last detail of this movie?1 I hope not! ;) :)
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On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed.
When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit. Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".
Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!
In the SNIT: it has been noted before that as they part lips upon their fist kiss, you see a thin thread of saliva bridging the gap.
Yes, for me, the exchange of bodily fluids is a form of possession. It was only then that Jack could be sure that Ennis was his.
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On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed.
When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit. Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".
Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!
In the SNIT: it has been noted before that as they part lips upon their fist kiss, you see a thin thread of saliva bridging the gap.
Yes, for me, the exchange of bodily fluids is a form of possession. It was only then that Jack could be sure that Ennis was his.
I love this observation!! It goes along with the whole theme of them taking care of each other--but also shows how comfortable they were becoming with each other. No fear of "cooties" here! Also an interesting contrast with the scene when they're in the bar, the night before they go up to BBM--they're drinking beer, out of bottles (just like Ennis does when he waits for Jack to appear in the reunion scene), but when they get intimate they tend to share things. Whiskey, a joint, lips . . . ;)
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AHHH yes, the exchanging of body fluids...Mr. LEE knew his brokies would be obsessing over the microscopic details as he did so masterfully. A poet and a genius he is.
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We have been discussing how Jack knew how and when to make a move on Ennis. A question that pops up is: would it have been inconceivable for Ennis to have made the first move? Is this too far-fetched? Perhpas Ennis was simply pre-empted...
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Before responding to that last question, tpe, I must say :
And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him. Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place. Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack. Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling). Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).
Very good observations, jesseanne. May I add also those moments where the two of them are together and not talking ? Silence between 2 people is only comfortable, I believe, when there is affection in the air.
Tpe : my feeling is that Ennis couldn't have made the first move. Even after four f*ing years, it was Jack who made contact. Ennis threw himself into the response, not the initiative. Even Cassie was the initiator.
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I don't know if this is quite the same as the question, but...
I think that the point when Jack knew, that Ennis might be interested, was the scene when Ennis is taking he's clothes off and talking to Jack about the coyote. "balls on him size a apples.. And Jack couldn't concentrade anymore, the can opening wasn't so easy anymore and then it was very hard to him not to look when Ennis was washing him self.
And next, Ennis is talking about the tent: "tent don't look right"... He wanted to be just right for them. And Jack's saying it ain't going nowhere, let it be.. And laughing and maybe thinking "maybe i should move on him soon. or something like that.
And the final point was you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity. Then Jack thought now is the time.
I might be little off the track maybe. ;D
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Before responding to that last question, tpe, I must say :
And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him. Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place. Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack. Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling). Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).
Very good observations, jesseanne. May I add also those moments where the two of them are together and not talking ? Silence between 2 people is only comfortable, I believe, when there is affection in the air.
Tpe : my feeling is that Ennis couldn't have made the first move. Even after four f*ing years, it was Jack who made contact. Ennis threw himself into the response, not the initiative. Even Cassie was the initiator.
Perhaps. The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult. No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.
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I don't know if this is quite the same as the question, but...
I think that the point when Jack knew, that Ennis might be interested, was the scene when Ennis is taking he's clothes off and talking to Jack about the coyote. "balls on him size a apples.. And Jack couldn't concentrade anymore, the can opening wasn't so easy anymore and then it was very hard to him not to look when Ennis was washing him self.
Yes, I had wondered if Jack was pondering a move here, but perhaps he was just pondering a quick glance. He certainly could not concentrate. :)
And the final point was you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity. Then Jack thought now is the time.
Yes, I think this scene was like an open invitation to Jack. He must have considered the possibility of moving on Ennis soon after that.
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Perhaps. The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult. No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.
There are silences that kill, silences that rebuff, silences that need to be respected as legitimate "not now" messages, and other silences that mean "what are you waiting for, a matin' call ?"
( *o) ) Men ! So complicated !
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Perhaps. The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult. No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.
There are silences that kill, silences that rebuff, silences that need to be respected as legitimate "not now" messages, and other silences that mean "what are you waiting for, a matin' call ?"
( *o) ) Men ! So complicated !
Yes, silences are more complicated than loquaciousness. Silences are more difficult to read. But silences cannot lie.
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Yes, silences are more complicated than loquaciousness. Silences are more difficult to read. But silences cannot lie.
As in Ennis's silent entry into the tent, second night. Jack sensed he still had a guiding role to play, if only to get things going in the right direction....
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Yes, silences are more complicated than loquaciousness. Silences are more difficult to read. But silences cannot lie.
As in Ennis's silent entry into the tent, second night. Jack sensed he still had a guiding role to play, if only to get things going in the right direction....
Couild we interpret this as Ennis making the move? I am sure Jack was in an agony of anticipation.
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For me the most clear signal to Jack was Ennis "you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity"
I just so stunned by all the little snippets that have been brought out by you guys, I shall have to sit down and watch it again, I have only watched it end to end twice,
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Hello johnboy :c)
I saw BBM 7 times in theatres and am also amazed at all the things I've learned about the film on this forum. Unfortunately I don't get my dvd for another 2.5 weeks. But when I do....
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For me the most clear signal to Jack was Ennis "you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity"
I just so stunned by all the little snippets that have been brought out by you guys, I shall have to sit down and watch it again, I have only watched it end to end twice,
Do watch it again johnboy, and see if you notice other felicities that we may have missed.
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tpe and stephan, if we all lived closer we could have a bbn night &**), and watch the sun go down over the sea.
here http://www.bbm.scrapbin.net/images/ennisjack/sunset.jpg
yes I shall watch it dont worry, its strange doing all the video's, you tend to see scenes , 100's of times, i aint complaining, standing hug top of the list,
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tpe and stephan, if we all lived closer we could have a bbn night &**), and watch the sun go down over the sea.
here http://www.bbm.scrapbin.net/images/ennisjack/sunset.jpg
yes I shall watch it dont worry, its strange doing all the video's, you tend to see scenes , 100's of times, i aint complaining, standing hug top of the list,
OOT: that sunset is gorgeous. Thank you. :)
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tpe and stephan, if we all lived closer we could have a bbn night &**), and watch the sun go down over the sea.
here http://www.bbm.scrapbin.net/images/ennisjack/sunset.jpg
yes I shall watch it dont worry, its strange doing all the video's, you tend to see scenes , 100's of times, i aint complaining, standing hug top of the list,
That picture is beautiful john boy, where is it taken?
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We have been discussing how Jack knew how and when to make a move on Ennis. A question that pops up is: would it have been inconceivable for Ennis to have made the first move? Is this too far-fetched? Perhpas Ennis was simply pre-empted...
That's a very interesting question,tpe :)
Having given it all of 5 minutes thought, I don't think it's "inconcievable" at all, I just think it's unlikely he would've had to make the move cause Jack would have always acted first. Jack had less obstacles to overcome in his mind, he recognised his feelings for Ennis, he had experience of sex with men, and he didn't have the image of Earl dead in the ditch in his head :( So by the time Ennis had worked out that he wanted to make a move on Jack, the move would have long since made by Jack.
Having said that, if for some reason,they had continued to get closer, without Jack making a move, and Ennis becoming more and more attracted to him, I think it might have boiled over into Ennis making a move. Ennis keeps things bottled up inside,until the pressure becomes too much and when it all comes flooding out, he reacts in an extreme way (the reunion kiss, the fight at the fireworks display, etc), so I can imagine his pent-up lust for Jack suddenly taking him over, maybe Jack burning the dinner or something and Ennis getting mad at him, then suddenly kissing him and pushing him to the ground... ??? ;) :c)
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Maybe, but I think the Ennis type tends to deal with guilt and uncertainty by leaving it all up to the other person - if someone else makes the move, they respond, if not, they do nothing. Ennis didn't see himslef as queer; a man who isn't queer doesn't make a move on another man. Even after the FNIT he doesn't face the fact that if not queer, he's not entirely straight either.
On the other hand, the ide of his getting mad at Jack and the whole thing turning into physical violence then into sex is a possible - that wrestling aequence after NIT has an element of that about it, and maybe the last fight before they leave Brokeback.
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tpe and stephan, if we all lived closer we could have a bbn night &**), and watch the sun go down over the sea.
here http://www.bbm.scrapbin.net/images/ennisjack/sunset.jpg
yes I shall watch it dont worry, its strange doing all the video's, you tend to see scenes , 100's of times, i aint complaining, standing hug top of the list,
That picture is beautiful john boy, where is it taken?
Its taken from the decking, missed the sunset proper, :( it was beautifull and I live in Newquay Cornwall &**) &**)
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For me the most clear signal to Jack was Ennis "you maybe a sinner but i ain't yet had the opportunity"
can someone please tell me how the above statement would give the go ahead...the clue....I can understand if Ennis was not a sinner that he had lived a restricted upbrining in many ways...but "sin" is not just related to being "gay"...
so in your views was that statement a come on or something else...
thanks
glynn xx
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Glynn - I don't think it's so much what Ennis says as how he says it and his expression when he does. He's looking straight at Jack and there's something in his eyes - some kind of twinkle - that suggests he's thinking about sinning and not once he comes down off the mountain but right there, with Jack.
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oh right so in a way that was ennis I suppose flirting...lol...
did Jack note that then...I will have to watch dvd again...
glynn xx
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oh right so in a way that was ennis I suppose flirting...lol...
did Jack note that then...I will have to watch dvd again...
glynn xx
Yes you will lol - many many many times. What a hardship ;)
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That's a very interesting question,tpe :)
Having given it all of 5 minutes thought, I don't think it's "inconcievable" at all, I just think it's unlikely he would've had to make the move cause Jack would have always acted first. Jack had less obstacles to overcome in his mind, he recognised his feelings for Ennis, he had experience of sex with men, and he didn't have the image of Earl dead in the ditch in his head :( So by the time Ennis had worked out that he wanted to make a move on Jack, the move would have long since made by Jack.
Having said that, if for some reason,they had continued to get closer, without Jack making a move, and Ennis becoming more and more attracted to him, I think it might have boiled over into Ennis making a move. Ennis keeps things bottled up inside,until the pressure becomes too much and when it all comes flooding out, he reacts in an extreme way (the reunion kiss, the fight at the fireworks display, etc), so I can imagine his pent-up lust for Jack suddenly taking him over, maybe Jack burning the dinner or something and Ennis getting mad at him, then suddenly kissing him and pushing him to the ground... ??? ;) :c)
I'm really intrigued by these ideas, CrimsonSky. I always found it a little puzzling that they include the shot of Ennis at the fireworks as the last scene in the trailer, but your comment here makes sense. Apart from the beautiful cinematography of the scene, it also shows Ennis acting out his frustration in an explosive and very characteristic way. Jack approaches Ennis with passion and tenderness; Ennis might have approached him the first time with violence (?). But I'm so glad SNIT turned out the way it did: Ennis enters the tent, and they both sink into a private, sacred world.
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On the other hand, the ide of his getting mad at Jack and the whole thing turning into physical violence then into sex is a possible - that wrestling aequence after NIT has an element of that about it, and maybe the last fight before they leave Brokeback.
An interesting and light-shedding thought, welshwitch. I admit I was more struck by Ennis's physical violence with other people - the fireworks party, or even the argument about lma going to work instead of serving dinner. There might have been sexual frustration there (isn't there always ? ::) ) but violence can also signify fear.
About the last fight, it is also interesting that Ennis didn't really want to be enlightened about Jack's trips to Mexico. His fear of losing Jack was so great it would have turned into the ultimate - murderous - violence.
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Does anyone share my suspicion that the lasso scene between the two of them was an attempt by Jack to draw Ennis into something more physical... The sense of play has an intrinsic eroticism, IMO. But it certainly did not end the way Jack had hoped it would.
Flwrchild in fact has an interesting insight about this that she will share with us in a moment...
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I can certainly see it this way because it reminds me of the scene immediately following SNIT, where they are roughhousing and its so playful and romantic. The lasso scene begins in such a similar way, but ends so differently.
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I can certainly see it this way because it reminds me of the scene immediately following SNIT, where they are roughhousing and its so playful and romantic. The lasso scene begins in such a similar way, but ends so differently.
I totally agree with this,Ennis had obviously been upset since finding out they had to leave early, and, by the way Jack looks at him before he goes over to him with the rope, it's clear that he wants to comfort him, or at least cheer him up, and also, Jack's probably hoping for one last bout of love-making before they leave. The difference is, of course, Ennis initiates the playfight after SNIT, but he doesn't want to "play" in the lasso scene, he's just too upset at the thought of leaving Brokeback and leaving Jack, and that pain comes out as anger and violence instead :(
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I can certainly see it this way because it reminds me of the scene immediately following SNIT, where they are roughhousing and its so playful and romantic. The lasso scene begins in such a similar way, but ends so differently.
I totally agree with this,Ennis had obviously been upset since finding out they had to leave early, and, by the way Jack looks at him before he goes over to him with the rope, it's clear that he wants to comfort him, or at least cheer him up, and also, Jack's probably hoping for one last bout of love-making before they leave. The difference is, of course, Ennis initiates the playfight after SNIT, but he doesn't want to "play" in the lasso scene, he's just too upset at the thought of leaving Brokeback and leaving Jack, and that pain comes out as anger and violence instead :(
Yes, I love the way you put it here. It definitely had the feel of a prelude to love-making. Violence is certainly the handmaid to their love-making...
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Symbolically it's Jack trying to tie Ennis to him, but the rope drops away and Ennis is free. Then it catches him again; this time it trips him up and makes him fall, as his feelings for Jack will trip him and trap him for the rest of his life.
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Symbolically it's Jack trying to tie Ennis to him, but the rope drops away and Ennis is free. Then it catches him again; this time it trips him up and makes him fall, as his feelings for Jack will trip him and trap him for the rest of his life.
Is the catcher in control here, or is it the object of desire? No matter: the metaphor of tripping is indeed very apt.
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On the subject of subtle clues... Just an observation...
This is something very subtle that I noticed.
When they share their whiskey, Jack pours it into Ennis mug...later on when they become more comfortable with each other, they drink from the same bottle, swapping spit. Like in the "you may be a sinner scene". At the end of that scene, Jack passes the bottle back to Ennis, who is sitting so close to Jack that he has to back up to grab the bottle and says "thank you".
Pretty intimate don't you think? Their lips on the same bottle... Just an observation!
Love your entire post gimmejack but this i think is a wonderful observation, one i hadn't noticed! It makes perfect sense - thanks for pointing it out, i will be looking for it now!
Yes, thanks gimmejack, I hadn't noticed that either.I mean, I'd noticed Jack giving Ennis the bottle, rather than pouring the whiskey into the cup, but I'd never picked up on the significance of it before. I wonder if there'll ever be a day when we've finally dissected every last detail of this movie?1 I hope not! ;) :)
This is a wonderful thread, and this a fascinating detail, the sharing the bottle, the intimacy implied in their doing that.
Just the subject of the "clues" they had to pick up, Jack in particular. This is not like a man picking up a woman, needless to say. Everything had to be less overt than that. But since we're looking for these clues, they can be seen from the first day. But particularly, the whole day leading up to FNIT -- lots of stuff going on that day, already mentioned. I don't really have anything new to add, I just like the discussion. :*(
kathy
And I sure think there is plenty more for us to dissect!
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Before responding to that last question, tpe, I must say :
And, Jack was also aware of Ennis' attraction to him. Ennis was giving off hints (subconscious) all over the place. Ennis got soup instead of beans for Jack. Ennis switched jobs with Jack (the look on Jack's face when Ennis sincerely offers to switch places is very telling). Ennis really opens up to Jack (that's the most I spoke in a year).
Very good observations, jesseanne. May I add also those moments where the two of them are together and not talking ? Silence between 2 people is only comfortable, I believe, when there is affection in the air.
Tpe : my feeling is that Ennis couldn't have made the first move. Even after four f*ing years, it was Jack who made contact. Ennis threw himself into the response, not the initiative. Even Cassie was the initiator.
Perhaps. The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult. No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.
However, to a person not looking for clues that these two men might get intimate, all this behavior could be just regular non-city-guys behavior. Like if you think about hobos traveling together in the earlier days. Straight guys would get naked to wash around each other and not think about it. Not out of the question to share the same bottle either, to these kinds of men. Sleeping close for warmth, all of it. Even the beginning scene, which we see as their "checking each other out," well, straight men would check each other out, too, but not as potential sexual partners.
This could get into a whole other realm, though, such as of "buddy movies." (Funny how this buddy-type intimacy used to be shown much more freely, but since Stonewall days, I suppose, people started shying away from it more, like uh oh, can't let the guys get too close, people will think they're gay!)
I wonder, if there hadn't been a story first, and we went to this movie knowing nothing, if we would have seen anything at all hinting at future intimacy. But of course we were looking for it, and saw it plenty.
kathy
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Perhaps. The character of Ennis is indeed very difficult. No open initiatives, but eloquent silences aplenty.
There are silences that kill, silences that rebuff, silences that need to be respected as legitimate "not now" messages, and other silences that mean "what are you waiting for, a matin' call ?"
( *o) ) Men ! So complicated !
LOL!! You know, this is really true. If this movie was about two women, they would be talk-talk-talking. They still might send out mixed signals or not read each other right, though. I know that's a generalization, but your "Men! So complicated!" -- men and their silences -- made me think of that.
And, insightful and also amusing words about silences.
kathy
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Glynn - I don't think it's so much what Ennis says as how he says it and his expression when he does. He's looking straight at Jack and there's something in his eyes - some kind of twinkle - that suggests he's thinking about sinning and not once he comes down off the mountain but right there, with Jack.
We can also get that take on Ennis's meaning of "sinner" because of what Jack had just said, "fellas like us..."
kathy
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Oh of course, the lasso sequence... so obviously erotic, how could I have forgotten ?
I need my dvd :-\\
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Don't we all!
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However, to a person not looking for clues that these two men might get intimate, all this behavior could be just regular non-city-guys behavior. Like if you think about hobos traveling together in the earlier days. Straight guys would get naked to wash around each other and not think about it. Not out of the question to share the same bottle either, to these kinds of men. Sleeping close for warmth, all of it. Even the beginning scene, which we see as their "checking each other out," well, straight men would check each other out, too, but not as potential sexual partners.
This could get into a whole other realm, though, such as of "buddy movies." (Funny how this buddy-type intimacy used to be shown much more freely, but since Stonewall days, I suppose, people started shying away from it more, like uh oh, can't let the guys get too close, people will think they're gay!)
I wonder, if there hadn't been a story first, and we went to this movie knowing nothing, if we would have seen anything at all hinting at future intimacy. But of course we were looking for it, and saw it plenty.
kathy
Kathy, this is a good observation. An older friend of mine did tell me that back in the 1950s, it was not strange for pairs of campers to share a bed for warmth. He noted that in such cases, you usually woke up cuddled up against each other if it was cold. And in a lot of cases, it was nothing more than that.
Certainly, our knowledge of the story is either a stimulant or a crutch.
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However, to a person not looking for clues that these two men might get intimate, all this behavior could be just regular non-city-guys behavior. Like if you think about hobos traveling together in the earlier days. Straight guys would get naked to wash around each other and not think about it. Not out of the question to share the same bottle either, to these kinds of men. Sleeping close for warmth, all of it. Even the beginning scene, which we see as their "checking each other out," well, straight men would check each other out, too, but not as potential sexual partners.
This could get into a whole other realm, though, such as of "buddy movies." (Funny how this buddy-type intimacy used to be shown much more freely, but since Stonewall days, I suppose, people started shying away from it more, like uh oh, can't let the guys get too close, people will think they're gay!)
I wonder, if there hadn't been a story first, and we went to this movie knowing nothing, if we would have seen anything at all hinting at future intimacy. But of course we were looking for it, and saw it plenty.
kathy
Kathy, this is a good observation. An older friend of mine did tell me that back in the 1950s, it was not strange for pairs of campers to share a bed for warmth. He noted that in such cases, you usually woke up cuddled up against each other if it was cold. And in a lot of cases, it was nothing more than that.
It wasn't so long ago in this country that one might be expected to share a bed with an acquaintance or a relative when people came to visit.... And certainly in the lesser developed regions of the world, it is still common to share a bed from time to time.
Anyone remember the sequence (near the beginning) of _Moby Dick_ when Ishmael shared a bed with a complete stranger (Queequeg)?
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It happens among men staying at inns in several eighteenth-century novels. And of course, in the past when people often slept in some if not all of their clothes, it was much more obviously just a wayi of keeping warm. Families shared beds too, before we all became so obsessively private and so obsessed by the sexual possibilities of every situation.
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However, to a person not looking for clues that these two men might get intimate, all this behavior could be just regular non-city-guys behavior. Like if you think about hobos traveling together in the earlier days. Straight guys would get naked to wash around each other and not think about it. Not out of the question to share the same bottle either, to these kinds of men. Sleeping close for warmth, all of it. Even the beginning scene, which we see as their "checking each other out," well, straight men would check each other out, too, but not as potential sexual partners.
This could get into a whole other realm, though, such as of "buddy movies." (Funny how this buddy-type intimacy used to be shown much more freely, but since Stonewall days, I suppose, people started shying away from it more, like uh oh, can't let the guys get too close, people will think they're gay!)
I wonder, if there hadn't been a story first, and we went to this movie knowing nothing, if we would have seen anything at all hinting at future intimacy. But of course we were looking for it, and saw it plenty.
kathy
Kathy, this is a good observation. An older friend of mine did tell me that back in the 1950s, it was not strange for pairs of campers to share a bed for warmth. He noted that in such cases, you usually woke up cuddled up against each other if it was cold. And in a lot of cases, it was nothing more than that.
It wasn't so long ago in this country that one might be expected to share a bed with an acquaintance or a relative when people came to visit.... And certainly in the lesser developed regions of the world, it is still common to share a bed from time to time.
Anyone remember the sequence (near the beginning) of _Moby Dick_ when Ishmael shared a bed with a complete stranger (Queequeg)?
Hehehehehe. Should we go into a discussion on the homoerotic subtexts of Miby Dick? Hehehehehehe.
Sorry, OOT.
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It happens among men staying at inns in several eighteenth-century novels. And of course, in the past when people often slept in some if not all of their clothes, it was much more obviously just a wayi of keeping warm. Families shared beds too, before we all became so obsessively private and so obsessed by the sexual possibilities of every situation.
And of course, in a much earlier time, the poor slept in one bed -- entire families, in a one room hovel where the animals also got bedded down in the cold season... It must have been quite inconvenient during moments of conjugal love-making...
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That would not make for romantic moments with a cow mooing right beside ya.Ennis gave several clues to Jack leading uo tp first NIT, starting with the first watch Jack had with the sheep. when Jack is alone he looks and a fire burnig in the night,contrary to their boss's istructions. I think this one way Ennis says I know its probably lonely but I'm here can you see me? Then he shoots an elk against the law for him after loosing all the food with the bear.( Although I think Jack bitched up a storm about the food situation).next: traded places with him and going to watch the sheep. Provided Jack companionship with their campfire taks ,sharing the whiskey,but the most obvious clue was definitly the " you may be a sinner" line .They were all thoghtful gestures on Ennis's part and were not lost on Jack.
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Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis did in fact put that vibe out there!
The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.
So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the "Drunk out of my mind" aspect that others have stated. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.
As far as it being planned ahead of time. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile after he settles in but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.
On a really off topic note, but in response to something someone else said here… Do you think Ennis would have made a move? Part of me wants to say no given his shyness and all, but part of me has to wonder about that. Observe the scene right after the SNIT when we see them from afar. Ennis is the aggressor here. He is the one that knocks Jacks hat off and runs, and he is also the one that wrestles Jack to the ground and starts kissing him. Also, he is the one that initiates the “one shot deal” conversation and freely admits by his wording that he intends for it to continue. Also, even though Jack is the one that enters the tent first and undresses, ultimately, Ennis initiates the SNIT by going in after him. He could have just as easily left to go up to the sheep. By going into the tent he starts the encounter, even though Jack is tempting him, he is ultimately the one that decides to ‘go for it’. It does make me wonder if… given the chance… he might not have eventually gotten comfortable enough around Jack to make a move of his own. Perhaps a more subtle one then Jack’s, but a move all the same.
Just my thoughts of course. Sorry this is so OT and so darn long. I seem to not be able to make a short post once I get going…
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I agree with almost all the last post, specially the comment that Jack sees and seizes an opportunity - he is an opportunist, elsewhere in the story too. Jack is Jack from beginning to, almost, the end, except when they're saying goodbye. I don't know, howeverm whether Ennis could ever have overcome all his inhibitions and prior conditioning - if he saw himsef as not queer, then he wouldn't make the first move. Somehow it's easier to respond to someone else's first move - I think Jack had to initiate things.
(And I am not about to discuss homoerotic subtexts in the most boring book ever to come out of North America, so there.)
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I don't know, however whether Ennis could ever have overcome all his inhibitions and prior conditioning - if he saw himsef as not queer, then he wouldn't make the first move. Somehow it's easier to respond to someone else's first move - I think Jack had to initiate things.
Perhaps so, Ennis was pretty closed up and scared. As I said, part of me thinks not, but that other part has to wonder if perhaps one night after drinking to much he might say somthing that basically says "Come an get me big boy" in a much more obvious manner then his "ain't yet had the oppurtunity" remark. I don't think he would have ever had the guts to make a physical move, but perhaps verbally... :)
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Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis did in fact put that vibe out there!
The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.
So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the "Drunk out of my mind" aspect that others have stated. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.
As far as it being planned ahead of time. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile after he settles in but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.
On a really off topic note, but in response to something someone else said here… Do you think Ennis would have made a move? Part of me wants to say no given his shyness and all, but part of me has to wonder about that. Observe the scene right after the SNIT when we see them from afar. Ennis is the aggressor here. He is the one that knocks Jacks hat off and runs, and he is also the one that wrestles Jack to the ground and starts kissing him. Also, he is the one that initiates the “one shot deal” conversation and freely admits by his wording that he intends for it to continue. Also, even though Jack is the one that enters the tent first and undresses, ultimately, Ennis initiates the SNIT by going in after him. He could have just as easily left to go up to the sheep. By going into the tent he starts the encounter, even though Jack is tempting him, he is ultimately the one that decides to ‘go for it’. It does make me wonder if… given the chance… he might not have eventually gotten comfortable enough around Jack to make a move of his own. Perhaps a more subtle one then Jack’s, but a move all the same.
Just my thoughts of course. Sorry this is so OT and so darn long. I seem to not be able to make a short post once I get going…
Oh do go on as long as you like. God do we ever tire of discussing the fine points at length? No. I loved how you described all of it, from Jack's perspective, from Ennis's. I have a woman friend who was not moved by BBM (always surprises me!) and said she didn't see these two men having an attraction and getting together. How could she not see it?? All the little things we saw, that you mentioned.
Although, if Jack hadn't been "inclined" that way, I do wonder if they would have just remained two guys doing a summer's work up there. If the other guy was totally straight with absolutely no inclination of being attracted to men, I can't see Ennis taking any chance, even given his own (arguable) inclinations.
I know I sometimes take the "devil's advocate" view, and question the assumptions we're basing our discussions on, but I assure you, I am totally convinced of and in love with the love between Ennis and Jack...
kathy
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Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis did in fact put that vibe out there!
The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.
So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the "Drunk out of my mind" aspect that others have stated. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.
As far as it being planned ahead of time. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile after he settles in but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.
On a really off topic note, but in response to something someone else said here… Do you think Ennis would have made a move? Part of me wants to say no given his shyness and all, but part of me has to wonder about that. Observe the scene right after the SNIT when we see them from afar. Ennis is the aggressor here. He is the one that knocks Jacks hat off and runs, and he is also the one that wrestles Jack to the ground and starts kissing him. Also, he is the one that initiates the “one shot deal” conversation and freely admits by his wording that he intends for it to continue. Also, even though Jack is the one that enters the tent first and undresses, ultimately, Ennis initiates the SNIT by going in after him. He could have just as easily left to go up to the sheep. By going into the tent he starts the encounter, even though Jack is tempting him, he is ultimately the one that decides to ‘go for it’. It does make me wonder if… given the chance… he might not have eventually gotten comfortable enough around Jack to make a move of his own. Perhaps a more subtle one then Jack’s, but a move all the same.
Just my thoughts of course. Sorry this is so OT and so darn long. I seem to not be able to make a short post once I get going…
What a great topic and wonderful post, Amtamburo. I enjoyed reading this so much! :) :)
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I have missed so much in this thread the last few days. I must reread this more carefully. But I have seen enough to say thank you for all the wonderful posts.
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Pretty much from the first time I watched the movie my thought on this was simple. Jack knew there was a chance that Ennis might respond favorably to an advance because Ennis did in fact put that vibe out there!
The reason I thought this was, Ennis did all/most of the changing! Jack's demeanor and personality didn't change at all. From day one he was open and talkative, where as Ennis was closed and quiet. I think that over the time they were together, Jack observed Ennis and took note of the changes that took place in his comfort around Jack. The other thing that was a pretty good indicator that Ennis had feelings for Jack, even if he didn't realize it, is the way Ennis takes care of Jack. Getting the soup, worrying about the tent, switching jobs with him because he is so miserable, shooting the Elk. All of these things were unbidden and unexpected niceties. Jack on the other hand, while he does try to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident, really doesn't do any obvious things or make any really changes in himself to please Ennis other then be himself and try his best to make Ennis smile/laugh.
So even though I believe that Jack knew he had a chance, slim or not, I think he also chose the time that he did because of the "Drunk out of my mind" aspect that others have stated. After all, Ennis was indeed drunk enough that he would not have realized or remembered if Jack was as drunk or not. If Ennis had refused then and there, or had been angry the following morning, Jack had that to fall back on and keep their friendship from being completely destroyed in the event of a refusal.
As far as it being planned ahead of time. I don't think so actually. I think that Jack saw his opportunity and decided to take it, but I don't think he planned it. There's no way he could have actually, not really. Ennis is/was unpredictable enough that there was no way Jack could have known he was going to stay in camp that night. Also, note in the scene when Jack wakes up and hears Ennis' teeth chattering. He looks and sounds disgusted here, clucking his tongue and speaking harshly, as if he is thinking "Oh for heaven's sake!" I think basically he had no real plans for anything when he called Ennis into the tent. He was obviously pleased by having him there, because of the little smile after he settles in but I don't think there had been a 'plan' all along to get him there, not in that way anyway. After Ennis was there, I think Jack found himself so aroused by the close proximity that he decided that he couldn't wait anymore and said, 'f*** it, it's worth a black eye to find out if the signs he's giving mean what I think," and went for it.
On a really off topic note, but in response to something someone else said here… Do you think Ennis would have made a move? Part of me wants to say no given his shyness and all, but part of me has to wonder about that. Observe the scene right after the SNIT when we see them from afar. Ennis is the aggressor here. He is the one that knocks Jacks hat off and runs, and he is also the one that wrestles Jack to the ground and starts kissing him. Also, he is the one that initiates the “one shot deal” conversation and freely admits by his wording that he intends for it to continue. Also, even though Jack is the one that enters the tent first and undresses, ultimately, Ennis initiates the SNIT by going in after him. He could have just as easily left to go up to the sheep. By going into the tent he starts the encounter, even though Jack is tempting him, he is ultimately the one that decides to ‘go for it’. It does make me wonder if… given the chance… he might not have eventually gotten comfortable enough around Jack to make a move of his own. Perhaps a more subtle one then Jack’s, but a move all the same.
Just my thoughts of course. Sorry this is so OT and so darn long. I seem to not be able to make a short post once I get going…
Great post amtamburo, and I agree, its hard to keep a post short sometimes when we get to talking about our favourite boys.....
I think Jack had an inkling about Ennis from the beginning, he was the more wordly wise one of the two, and he was attracted to Ennis from day one, IMO. As far as Ennis making a move on Jack, I dont think he would have. Far too repressed and not able to articulate any of his feelings, never mind show them. But - something struck me when watching the FNIT, when they first spring apart after Ennis wakes up and discovers where Jack has his hand - when Jack goes to touch Ennis and has his hands on his face, Ennis does the same, I always find this really sweet and quite romantic, even though this isnt a particularly romantic scene (as compared to SNIT anyway) - Ennis obviously feels something for Jack, and wants to touch him in the way that Jack is touching him. I think this is the moment when Jack realises that Ennis is interested, because they stay like that for a while, and Ennis doesnt move or take Jack's hands off him. Its a very telling moment in this scene, IMO. And of course, it leads to Jack taking the lead and initiating the sex......
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And of course Ennis then jumps in violently in an Ennis sort of way, almost as if he can't believe what he's doing or can't wait, maybe as if he's given away something about himself to Jack, given off some vibes he doesn't want to have, but can't help himself any longer.
Jack had picked up enough signs to know it was worth a try; it's possible to see in someone something they haven't yet seen in themself and Jack has spent a fair amount of time talking to/looking at/listening to Ennis.
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And of course Ennis then jumps in violently in an Ennis sort of way, almost as if he can't believe what he's doing or can't wait, maybe as if he's given away something about himself to Jack, given off some vibes he doesn't want to have, but can't help himself any longer.
Jack had picked up enough signs to know it was worth a try; it's possible to see in someone something they haven't yet seen in themself and Jack has spent a fair amount of time talking to/looking at/listening to Ennis.
Never seek to tell thy love
Love that never told can be;
For the gentle wind does move
Silently, invisibly.
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You did it again tpe!
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And of course Ennis then jumps in violently in an Ennis sort of way, almost as if he can't believe what he's doing or can't wait, maybe as if he's given away something about himself to Jack, given off some vibes he doesn't want to have, but can't help himself any longer.
Jack had picked up enough signs to know it was worth a try; it's possible to see in someone something they haven't yet seen in themself and Jack has spent a fair amount of time talking to/looking at/listening to Ennis.
Never seek to tell thy love
Love that never told can be;
For the gentle wind does move
Silently, invisibly.
Absolutely beautiful...
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It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.
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It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.
Is that so?
I don't really agree with you...you cannot judge the first night they had sex with a lifetime of sex
Ennis later on shows a lot of gentleness, and so does Jack.
Annie Proulx did not go into details there, because there is no need.
Any couple has it's fantasies and lovemaking habits, sometimes it rough , sometimes is not....
They were compatible, for many reasons...but this one, i do not agree with. Sorry, my POV
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I'm stickin to my guns here. respectfully Anit foolin
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I'm stickin to my guns here. respectfully Anit foolin
of course..no worries, we all have our POVs and I respect yours! x ;)
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It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.
Aintfoolin' I like your style. No need for no fancy 5 doller words, you cut right to the quick.
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Noyin fancy about me. I truly love this thread, and respect and appreciate everyone's POV.
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It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.
Is that so?
I don't really agree with you...you cannot judge the first night they had sex with a lifetime of sex
Ennis later on shows a lot of gentleness, and so does Jack.
Annie Proulx did not go into details there, because there is no need.
Any couple has it's fantasies and lovemaking habits, sometimes it rough , sometimes is not....
They were compatible, for many reasons...but this one, i do not agree with. Sorry, my POV
Yep, I'm with Froggy on this one. I think it was rough the first time because anything else would have been too much intimacy too soon for Ennis, but I think the SNIT shows more of what it became between them.
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I'm with Froggy and NoReins here. The first time they are semi-drunk and in Ennis's case at least embarking on the unknown and doing something that before this he would have regarded as forbidden. Once the first encounter is over, it becomes easier and therefore doesn't need to be violent; in the ss they never really move beyond quick, violent sex but the movie is more subtle, or at least different - it shows tenderness and affection too.
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:h)
This is my first post and I'm nervous - so be kind if you think I'm an idiot or I haven't watched the same movie as you!
I read the short story first so I already knew what was coming when I saw the movie, and because of that, I thought that falling in love with each other just sort of happened unexpectedly for both of them, although in the movie Jack falls first. In that frame of mind, I don't think that Ennis gave him any sign that he could make a move on him sexually. All the signs he gave him were just friendship signs, telling your friend that you are a virgin, trying to get soup because they like it etc., were just signs of a close friendship developing. Jack made a move on Ennis that first time because he knew that HE had fallen for Ennis, Ennis was drunk, and Jack was just drunk enough not to be able to resist the temptation and hope that Ennis would go along with it. No planning just events unfolding naturally.
But sometimes (strictly in the movie only) it seems to me that Jack has had experience of sex with another man before - because of the way he is that first night in the tent. Then in that mood I can sometimes see it differently.
Then the question wouldn't be How did Jack know to make a move on Ennis, but, How did Jack know WHEN to make a move on Ennis? - because he was always going to.
If Jack was experienced with men it could be possible that he gained that experience the first year he was on Brokeback Mountain. He is only 19 this year and he has already been on the mountain once before making him 18 at the time, so it may have been his first time away from home. Jack said to Ennis that they lost 42 sheep up there the previous year due to a storm, a fact Aguiree confirms when he says to Jack in his office that first day 'I don't want that again' It could be possible that they lost that many sheep due to a storm, but it also could be from the same reason that Jack and Ennis lost one on the first night together - because no one was looking after them. Aguirre looks Jack in the eye when he says 'you sleep with the sheep' and Jack looks down or something (I can't remember at this moment, but he does react). Now maybe this is a new thing and the year before both the herder and the camper slept in the camp, or maybe he is just reitterating to Jack that that is what he must do, but the implication is that the year before for whatever reason both Jack and the other person slept in the camp together. Now if this was a married man, maybe away from home and missing his wife he could have taken advantage of having 'a one shot thing' whilst up on the mountain just to fulfill his needs. If Jack did indeed go along with this it would explain his experience, because I doubt it would have been easy anywhere else for him to get it, at home or on the rodeo circuit.
If that were the case then when Jack came down the previous year he would have been sexually experienced and maybe when he tried doing a bit of rodeoing like he said he did, he could have met some girls but found out that he actually prefered men. Which living in that place at that time would have presented him with problems.
He might then have seen another year on Brokeback as an opportunity to be with a man again. That would explain his great interest in Ennis that first day outside Aguirres office. It would also explain why he said to Ennis 'that aint the point, we should both be in this camp'. But when he met Ennis and realised how quiet and reserved Ennis was, he knew he couldn't just jump straight in. So he had to take his time and develop a friendship with Ennis first, which is when he started to fall in love with him. Something he DIDN'T have planned.
I think this would also explain the way in which Jack made a move on Ennis, with his back to him, no kissing or anything like that to frighten Ennis off, (I also think this may have been the way it was done to Jack the previous year) just relying on a 19 year olds hormones accepting sex wherever it comes from with no great show of love or tenderness accompanying it. In the end that is what happened. Now Ennis may have been falling in love with Jack himself at that point, I don't know. But even if he was he probably would have no way of expressing it at that point.
I think that would explain how nervous Jack was the next day, because he really wanted to get close to Ennis and was worried he'd frightened him off. So the SNIT starts the same way with Jack taking his shirt off and leaving the flap of the tent open, this would show Ennis that sex was available again and Jack was trying to tempt him in with that. But when Ennis came in and didn't just jump on Jack, but seemed nervous and respectful of Jack, Jack risked going for what he really wanted which was tenderness and love with Ennis, and he probably couldn't believe his luck when it worked.
When they came down from the mountain this could be why Jack says to Ennis 'gonna do this again next year?' and doesn't try harder to stop them seperating, he may think that giving Ennis that long to consider his feelings he may, like Jack the previous year, decide that he did prefer being with men. It was obviously a blow to hear that Ennis was getting married, but if it took him a year to figure out his feelings he must have thought Ennis needs time too. That would also explain why he went back the next year, in the hope that Ennis had come to the same conclusion as he had the previous year and had decided to go to the mountain to see if Jack was there. (and according to the book Ennis had taken about a year to realise that Jack was what he wanted) But unfortunately in that year Ennis had got married and gotten into something that he couldn't get out of.
Well there you go - I didn't mean to be that long winded, but once I started - it just kept growing!
I don't always think that is what happened, just sometimes! But then again that is the beauty of this movie, Ang Lee left so much of it a blank canvas that we can all draw our own pictures on!
Hope I haven't bored you!
Rosie.
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Rosie welcome!! Never a bore! You made some very interesting points. And you're right - part of the beauty of this movie is all the open spaces that we can fill in as we choose!
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I echo FlwrChild here. Welcome Rosie. The beauty of BBM is its ability to create spaces of the Heart.
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Thanks for the welcome!
I've just read through what I wrote, (duh, I should have done that before I posted) and I think that although I have made Jack seem very calculating here, with everything planned, I should have made it clear that that was all before he met Ennis. After Ennis everything changed for Jack, and he was not looking for oppotunities, neither was he calculating, he was just madly in love and I think he stayed that way, till the very end. And I think that Ennis loved him just as much.
Rosie
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This is a great post! But I disagree with the part about Jack being sexually occupied with someone while 42 sheep got killed Thats ALOT of sheep. I think Jack would have mentioned at some point if there was someone helping him the previous summer. I think he was letting Ennis know how dangerous the job can be and to show his true dislike for Aguirre.IMO.
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Calculating doesn't really come into it when passion is involved - I like Jake's image of taking a deep breath and just diving into cold water as a good way of expressing what happens during FNIT.
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Thanks Aintfoolin,
I hadn't thought of the possibility that Jack might have been on the mountain by himself the previous year, that would sort of blow my theory out of the water wouldn't it! It's nice to have people to discuss this movie with! Reading these posts, I find so many things that I hadn't thought of, and so many new ways to enjoy the movie.
Rosie.
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In fact Jack says the sheep were killed in a lightning storm. Presumably he was sheltering in a tent away from them. It seems to me possible that he was alone, though whether Aguirre would have left one young guy on his own with so many sheep is debatable. It makes more sense for there to be two people there, and Annie Proulx says that that was what usually happened.
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Hi Rosie #$# Thanks for a great first post :)
You could well be right about Jack's previous experience having been on Brokeback(I'm sure he'd had some sort of experience before), I can't imagine there was much of a gay scene in Lightning Flat ::) ;) ;D Jack definitely looks kind of shifty when Aguirre's talking about the previous year's loss, and the way he decides that it's Jack, rather than Ennis, he wants sleeping with the sheep, suggests he's trying to "punish" Jack somehow.He says it's because of "predator loss" that he wants Jack with the sheep,but seeing as how Jack couldn't hit a barn door from 10 paces, never mind a coyote in the dark, Jack doesn't seem like the logical choice ???
As for the contrast between FNIT and SNIT, as I've said before in other threads, Jack is the sort of person who had no problem separating love from sex, so he was quite happy to just have raw, faceless sex with Ennis,if that's all Ennis was prepared to give, but he probably thought all his Christmases had come at once in SNIT ;) <^(
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its xmas everyday on BBM!!! :8 <^(
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Rosie, Welcome!!!
And I like your style... I have had similiar thoughts on Jack's previous year on BBM and you summed iit up much better than I could have! Thanks for getting all thinking about Jack and his prior experience!
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Great post amtamburo, and I agree, its hard to keep a post short sometimes when we get to talking about our favourite boys.....
I think Jack had an inkling about Ennis from the beginning, he was the more wordly wise one of the two, and he was attracted to Ennis from day one, IMO. As far as Ennis making a move on Jack, I dont think he would have. Far too repressed and not able to articulate any of his feelings, never mind show them. But - something struck me when watching the FNIT, when they first spring apart after Ennis wakes up and discovers where Jack has his hand - when Jack goes to touch Ennis and has his hands on his face, Ennis does the same, I always find this really sweet and quite romantic, even though this isnt a particularly romantic scene (as compared to SNIT anyway) - Ennis obviously feels something for Jack, and wants to touch him in the way that Jack is touching him. I think this is the moment when Jack realises that Ennis is interested, because they stay like that for a while, and Ennis doesnt move or take Jack's hands off him. Its a very telling moment in this scene, IMO. And of course, it leads to Jack taking the lead and initiating the sex......
Oh yes, Christie -- this particular moment of this particular scene is really telling and wonderful. Just as you described -- Ennis also clutching onto Jack after Jack first grabs at Ennis's jacket. Actually (though I'm not absolutely certain of this since I haven't watched it recently (not since three days ago :) how it happens at the very beginning is really great -- Ennis pushes Jack away almost simultaneously with grabbing onto him. Pushes first and immediately grabs and holds onto him. Even when Ennis says "whudyadoin?" he hasn't moved away -- their foreheads are together. Ennis stays right where he is when Jack lets go of him and takes off his jacket...then there's the "fastest one-handed unbuckling and unzipping in the West." Anyway, another moment I love is when Ennis puts his hand...how do you say it...outstretched, open-handed...on Jack's hair, then clutches his fingers into Jack's hair. That moment, to me, is showing, okay, he has given into his wanting this too.
Of course, this is best on full-screen version, the flipping Jack over, pulling down Jack's jeans, getting himself ready...and all the rest.
Sorry this has strayed OT kind of, but I always trip out at Jack there on all fours for several seconds, waiting, waiting for Ennis to have his way with him. For some reason, those moments really get to me.
kathy
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It's obvious that Ennis likes rough sex, but so does Jack. That makes them compatale in bed.YeeHaww.
I think this straying to OT...but I'm LOL'ing. YeeHaww indeed! That's one thing I love about these two together (or any equally matched men) is the rough stuff, which is not okay otherwise, when the relationship isn't equal. Ennis with Alma the obvious example.
kathy
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Yep, I'm with Froggy on this one. I think it was rough the first time because anything else would have been too much intimacy too soon for Ennis, but I think the SNIT shows more of what it became between them.
I agree about the beautiful non-rough intimacy we saw they had. But, no doubt they would like it rough at times -- just like their fun rough-housing, that in the one case, the morning after SNIT, turned into sweet kisses, and in the other case would have probably also have done so except for the heightened and out-of-control feelings of leaving early...
kathy
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:h)
This is my first post and I'm nervous - so be kind if you think I'm an idiot or I haven't watched the same movie as you!
I read the short story first so I already knew what was coming when I saw the movie, and because of that, I thought that falling in love with each other just sort of happened unexpectedly for both of them, although in the movie Jack falls first. In that frame of mind, I don't think that Ennis gave him any sign that he could make a move on him sexually. All the signs he gave him were just friendship signs, telling your friend that you are a virgin, trying to get soup because they like it etc., were just signs of a close friendship developing. Jack made a move on Ennis that first time because he knew that HE had fallen for Ennis, Ennis was drunk, and Jack was just drunk enough not to be able to resist the temptation and hope that Ennis would go along with it. No planning just events unfolding naturally.
...
Well there you go - I didn't mean to be that long winded, but once I started - it just kept growing!
I don't always think that is what happened, just sometimes! But then again that is the beauty of this movie, Ang Lee left so much of it a blank canvas that we can all draw our own pictures on!
Hope I haven't bored you!
Rosie.
Welcome Rosie. As far as I'm concerned, you go on as much as you like. I quite enjoyed reading your perspective on this subject. As to one part of it: I'd been wondering lately about Jack's previous summer on Brokeback, so I like your surmises about that. And it is important to come from the proper perspective, as you did in talking about this -- that these were basically inexperienced young rural boys and we can't ascribe (right word?) our perspectives onto them. Sometimes I forget that, kind of.
Not only did Ang Lee do us a favor by leaving so much open to interpretation, but we have here a forum full of wonderful people to interpret! I just love discussing all this.
kathy
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Thanks Aintfoolin,
I hadn't thought of the possibility that Jack might have been on the mountain by himself the previous year, that would sort of blow my theory out of the water wouldn't it! It's nice to have people to discuss this movie with! Reading these posts, I find so many things that I hadn't thought of, and so many new ways to enjoy the movie.
Rosie.
Doesn't seem to me they would ever send anyone on that job by himself though.
kathy
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In fact Jack says the sheep were killed in a lightning storm. Presumably he was sheltering in a tent away from them. It seems to me possible that he was alone, though whether Aguirre would have left one young guy on his own with so many sheep is debatable. It makes more sense for there to be two people there, and Annie Proulx says that that was what usually happened.
Jack says about the lightning killing sheep, but Aguirre says there was bad predator loss the year before. So we need to figure out about that previous summer :) Does the story say anything? (Sorry, it's late and I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)
kathy
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Jack says about the lightning killing sheep, but Aguirre says there was bad predator loss the year before. So we need to figure out about that previous summer :) Does the story say anything? (Sorry, it's late and I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)
kathy
Interesting point...I never thought about that...another little white lie from Senor Twist??? HMMMMMMMM
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Jack says about the lightning killing sheep, but Aguirre says there was bad predator loss the year before. So we need to figure out about that previous summer :) Does the story say anything? (Sorry, it's late and I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)
kathy
Interesting point...I never thought about that...another little white lie from Senor Twist??? HMMMMMMMM
I suspect that Aguirre was making a general observation when he said that -- coming from years of experience that preceded even the previous summer when Jack worked for him for the first time. It may very well be that Aguirre chose to disbelieve Jack's explanation that lightning killed the sheep. The comment by Jack about Aguirre expecting him to control the weather is ambiguous about this point. It is either Aguirre was being unreasonable, or that he did not believe Jack's story.
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Yeah, I reckon Aguirre didn't believe Jack - perhaps Jack was neglecting his duties up there the previous summer so the predators really did get the sheep but Jack lied about it because he was scared that Aguirre wouldn't employ him again if he knew the truth?
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Yeah, I reckon Aguirre didn't believe Jack - perhaps Jack was neglecting his duties up there the previous summer so the predators really did get the sheep but Jack lied about it because he was scared that Aguirre wouldn't employ him again if he knew the truth?
Yes, that possibility -- that Jack lied about the lightning story -- did cross my mind many a time. IT is quite hard to read him during that initial conversation with Ennis at the bar...
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It doesn't seem from the ss, or from the screenplay unless you don't subscribe to the lie with circumstance idea, that Jack was lying. Ir there were a thousand or more shep onthe mountain, and lightning killed forty-two, it's presumably feasible that predators killed more, whether Jack was doing his job or not, and Aguirre got the hump because the total number that came down was low - can't imagine he's be interested in extenuating circumstances. The whole thing, however, might suggest that the previous year Jack had had his mind on other things and was just, at the beginning, doing the same again.
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Hell, now I have a mental picture of mountain ranges all over the West with pairs ( or more) of sheepherders all " stemming the rose" all over the place - sorry, frivolous, in silly mood.
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It doesn't seem from the ss, or from the screenplay unless you don't subscribe to the lie with circumstance idea, that Jack was lying. Ir there were a thousand or more shep onthe mountain, and lightning killed forty-two, it's presumably feasible that predators killed more, whether Jack was doing his job or not, and Aguirre got the hump because the total number that came down was low - can't imagine he's be interested in extenuating circumstances. The whole thing, however, might suggest that the previous year Jack had had his mind on other things and was just, at the beginning, doing the same again.
Well yes: he could be telling the truth AND it could be that more sheep got killed by cayotes on top of the lightning incident...
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And the perfectly natural way he said it to Ennis in the bar: "Thought I'd asphyxiate from the smell." Which seems like a detail you'd have from the experience. And then b*tching about Aguirre, which is so typical (and cute) of Jack. I don't think he was lying about the incident. And Aguirre's comment may have been more of a general one or just not remembering the specifics, just that there were losses the year before.
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And the perfectly natural way he said it to Ennis in the bar: "Thought I'd asphyxiate from the smell." Which seems like a detail you'd have from the experience. And then b*tching about Aguirre, which is so typical (and cute) of Jack. I don't think he was lying about the incident. And Aguirre's comment may have been more of a general one or just not remembering the specifics, just that there were losses the year before.
Yes, that detail about the smell rings true.
What are we to make of Ennis's look as Jack was telling him this. It is a rather curious look. Incredulity? Part sympathy? Disgust of what it must have been to see 42 dead sheep after a lightning strike?
You need not answer. Sorry, this is perhaps a bit OOT now...
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Maybe the expression's incredulity mixed with disgust, which gives Jack the idea that Ennis doesn't' know much about what he's in for up on the mountain, which makes him think he could perhaps make a move on Ennis because he's inexperienced and Jack isn't.
(See how neatly I've dragged this back on to the topic after Some People, one of whom at least Should Know Better, have dragged it off.)
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Maybe the expression's incredulity mixed with disgust, which gives Jack the idea that Ennis doesn't' know much about what he's in for up on the mountain, which makes him think he could perhaps make a move on Ennis because he's inexperienced and Jack isn't.
(See how neatly I've dragged this back on to the topic after Some People, one of whom at least Should Know Better, have dragged it off.)
Ha! LOL'ing! Yes there are Some People who are good at bringing Those People Who Should Know Better back on topic, but those same Some People cause Yet Other People to join in the straying!!
kathy
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At least Some of Us acknowledge our many shortcomings; as far as Leading Others Astray goes, Socrates was condemned for misleading the youth of Athens, as I recall, so Some of Us are in good company.
and perhaps that's why Jack made a move on Ennis - he sensed he was in responsive company. Back on topic!!!
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i dunno i think it was because they were both really drunk that night and were just doing something they didn't mean to happened but then i just kept occurring and kept leading to more and more stuff
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Maybe Mr.Aguirre knew Jack was a terrible shot and blamed him for the "bad predator loss". Jack blamed the weather maybe because he was embarrassed about being a bad shot??? Hmmmmmmm...don't matter...Ennis thought it was cute!!!
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~) *o)
Gimmejack : I like your signature.
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~) *o)
Gimmejack : I like your signature.
Thank you...Reading this one, I immediately thought of Ennis as the former and Jack as the latter...the courage to come out and then... :\'( you know the rest...
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Sorry this has strayed OT kind of, but I always trip out at Jack there on all fours for several seconds, waiting, waiting for Ennis to have his way with him. For some reason, those moments really get to me.
Yes, this is breathtaking. That entire part of the scene, with Jack on all fours and ready to take on the passive role, has never been portrayed in any performance before, and it is really, really hot.
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Sorry this has strayed OT kind of, but I always trip out at Jack there on all fours for several seconds, waiting, waiting for Ennis to have his way with him. For some reason, those moments really get to me.
Yes, this is breathtaking. That entire part of the scene, with Jack on all fours and ready to take on the passive role, has never been portrayed in any performance before, and it is really, really hot.
Oh, yes, you are so right! There is no doubt about what is about to take place when Jack in on all fours...I love that Ang Lee did not shy away from this scene, while at the same time having some discretion on this very intimate scene. Look how the camera roams from Ennis to Jack and then back to Ennis, trying to drink it all in.
Oh, and Jack knew what he wanted from when he first got a look at Ennis. He made a move when Ennis showed a little sign of interest, IMO....
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Sorry this has strayed OT kind of, but I always trip out at Jack there on all fours for several seconds, waiting, waiting for Ennis to have his way with him. For some reason, those moments really get to me.
Yes, this is breathtaking. That entire part of the scene, with Jack on all fours and ready to take on the passive role, has never been portrayed in any performance before, and it is really, really hot.
Oh, yes, you are so right! There is no doubt about what is about to take place when Jack in on all fours...I love that Ang Lee did not shy away from this scene, while at the same time having some discretion on this very intimate scene. Look how the camera roams from Ennis to Jack and then back to Ennis, trying to drink it all in.
Oh, and Jack knew what he wanted from when he first got a look at Ennis. He made a move when Ennis showed a little sign of interest, IMO....
This scene was so "shocking" -- I loved and love it myself, but I was so aware, seeing it the first time in the theater, how brazen it was, to show this act in "mainstream" cinema. I was and am so impressed by, and grateful to, everyone involved that they did this. Beside it being just plain hot, hot, hot.
And CherryCade, I like what you said about the camera work there -- I hadn't really analyzed that yet; I'm by no means finished "studying" this scene. ;)
Okay, back on topic. So you think from minute one that Jack was interested, and waiting until he thought Ennis showed an interest. I can certainly see that. When exactly do you think Ennis showed an interest?
So here we are back at "that's more words" and Ennis smiling and Jack flicking his belt buckle and horsing around and then later drinking and singing and...
kathy
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It seems to me that Jack was getting signals from Ennis...as well of sending out some of his own. With the help of a little whiskey, Jack felt he was safe to try something. it worked!
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Ennis deciding not to go back to the sheep that night.opting to stay in camp with Jack and get wasted was an "unexpected pleasure" for Jack. He made the most of it.
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Ennis deciding not to go back to the sheep that night.opting to stay in camp with Jack and get wasted was an "unexpected pleasure" for Jack. He made the most of it.
He sure did <^( <^( <^(
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Ennis deciding not to go back to the sheep that night.opting to stay in camp with Jack and get wasted was an "unexpected pleasure" for Jack. He made the most of it.
I think I would agee with that. But, at the same time I think Jack got a lot more that night than he expected to.
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Ennis deciding not to go back to the sheep that night.opting to stay in camp with Jack and get wasted was an "unexpected pleasure" for Jack. He made the most of it.
I think I would agee with that. But, at the same time I think Jack got a lot more that night than he expected to.
I doubt he expected anything to happen.
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Oh this was a very fun thread to read. I know it's and oldie but, a goodie. :8
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Just because this topic is old does not mean that the discussion has been exhausted. :) You think about this topic and think about how it happens in real life. Many times, you just know...
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Just because this topic is old does not mean that the discussion has been exhausted. :) You think about this topic and think about how it happens in real life. Many times, you just know...
I'm glad you said this, tpe, because I happened across this thread just now, too.
(And, by the way, I only today just saw that I'm an Alma Jr.! :clap: Last I looked, I was a Cassie!
Anyway, I think from the moment Jack pulled up in his truck and saw that gorgeous, sexy hunk leaning so shyly against the trailer, he knew... ;)
Seriously, I really feel that Jack deeply "understood" Ennis from the moment he met him. Then when they spent all that time together on the mountain (from full moon to full moon...a month?) Jack knew he wanted Ennis and even more, knew Ennis wanted him.
The moment in FNIT when they are nose-to-nose and breathing heavy...oh! I've fallen down and I can't get up!
Shelley
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I maintain there are those of us who possess an uncanny 6th sense about these things. Sometimes it is called "Gaydar". I have rarely been wrong.
JBron10544
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I'm glad you said this, tpe, because I happened across this thread just now, too.
(And, by the way, I only today just saw that I'm an Alma Jr.! :clap: Last I looked, I was a Cassie!
Anyway, I think from the moment Jack pulled up in his truck and saw that gorgeous, sexy hunk leaning so shyly against the trailer, he knew... ;)
Seriously, I really feel that Jack deeply "understood" Ennis from the moment he met him. Then when they spent all that time together on the mountain (from full moon to full moon...a month?) Jack knew he wanted Ennis and even more, knew Ennis wanted him.
The moment in FNIT when they are nose-to-nose and breathing heavy...oh! I've fallen down and I can't get up!
Shelley
A lot of that seems to go on here!
Well, Jack being the way he apparently was, gay or wanting to be (do we actually know he'd been with men before? or just was inclined that way?)...when he saw who he would be spending the summer with, the Marlboro Man, he would definitely be inclined to start thinking in those terms from the start. Then that full-moon-to-full-moon, and the wonderful camaraderie and fun they were having -- and even getting Ennis to talk -- and Ennis's remark that he "ain't yet had the opportunity," and drinking that night, and Ennis coming in the tent...well yeah.
As I may have said elsewhere, though, it is kind of curious that he put Ennis's hand on him, instead of turning over and touching Ennis. But I guess this was another of those things that let Ennis not be queer. If Jack got him off with his hand that night, that isn't the kind of man Ennis could accept he was. Not yet.
I always wonder who Jack was with the year before and what went on between them. I'm thinking it wasn't anything like this 1963 summer. Maybe a nice young religious man or something who didn't brook no funny-business?
kathy
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I maintain there are those of us who possess an uncanny 6th sense about these things. Sometimes it is called "Gaydar". I have rarely been wrong.
JBron10544
A different form of gaydar Jack might have had -- maybe he felt that with his charms, he could get to this "straight" guy. Sure willing to give it a try. If Ennis had punched him out that FNIT, he could have claimed he was asleep when he did that. Right.
kathy
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Well I have recently watched the scene in which Jack pulled Ennis's hand onto his erection and I am convinced after watching in slo mo that maybe Jack was'nt asleep at all . I think he did expect something to happen that night from the moment Ennis gave him that look after confessing his virginity to him . I think he knew he would make it happen.
I may be wrong but this is my opinion.
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So you think he waited for a chance to call him in then pretended to be asleep till Ennis wa, then started what he's meant to do all the time? Sounds plausible - depends whther you think that when you see Jack he's JG acting being asleep while awake ( which he must have been in reality) or JG acting Jack not being asleep but pretending to be...that's nice and complicated.
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I'm trying to remember what I was thinking the first time I watched. I thought it was quite bold of Jack and wondered how did he know he could do this. So I think I immediately figured they had been together enough and had been giving each other enough signals that he felt he had a good chance. That was the only thing I could figure. I was a little dumb at first cuz, I didn't realize what Jack was even doing, I thought he was just cold and need Ennis to put his arm around him. It wasn't until Ennis jumped up that I caught on. *^)
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I'm trying to remember what I was thinking the first time I watched. I thought it was quite bold of Jack and wondered how did he know he could do this. So I think I immediately figured they had been together enough and had been giving each other enough signals that he felt he had a good chance.
And if all else fails, Jack could just claim that he was drunk ;)
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I'm trying to remember what I was thinking the first time I watched. I thought it was quite bold of Jack and wondered how did he know he could do this. So I think I immediately figured they had been together enough and had been giving each other enough signals that he felt he had a good chance. That was the only thing I could figure. I was a little dumb at first cuz, I didn't realize what Jack was even doing, I thought he was just cold and need Ennis to put his arm around him. It wasn't until Ennis jumped up that I caught on. *^)
You innocent babe -- funny. Then you "had" to watch what followed!
It seems we've established that the Water Walking Jesus scene was not the same day as FNIT, but like the day before or so. But nonetheless, they have the interchange about "sinner...never had the opportunity," and Jack laughs that gorgeous little Jack Nasty laugh, and Ennis looks at him straight on with the most flirtatious look. So they certainly were at the least flirting around with innuendo before that FNIT.
kathy
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I have to ask on what basis is it established that these two scenes were separrate days? Please inform me.
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I have to ask on what basis is it established that these two scenes were separrate days? Please inform me.
I'd like to know that too...I've never had any reason to think that they were different days :s)
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I maintain there are those of us who possess an uncanny 6th sense about these things. Sometimes it is called "Gaydar". I have rarely been wrong.
JBron10544
Welcome, JBron10544. I have been wrong at times, but even then, I immediately know that I have been wrong. It is quite uncanny...
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I'm glad you said this, tpe, because I happened across this thread just now, too.
(And, by the way, I only today just saw that I'm an Alma Jr.! :clap: Last I looked, I was a Cassie!
Anyway, I think from the moment Jack pulled up in his truck and saw that gorgeous, sexy hunk leaning so shyly against the trailer, he knew... ;)
Seriously, I really feel that Jack deeply "understood" Ennis from the moment he met him. Then when they spent all that time together on the mountain (from full moon to full moon...a month?) Jack knew he wanted Ennis and even more, knew Ennis wanted him.
The moment in FNIT when they are nose-to-nose and breathing heavy...oh! I've fallen down and I can't get up!
Shelley
Shelley, thank you and congratulations. :)
Was Jack fumble with the rodeo clown? He seemed to have read Randall accurately enough (not surprising, considering the hot stares he got from Randall).
His move on Ennis in the FNIT was comparatively bold. Perhaps Jack just couldn't help himself, and yet you sensed that he was not going to back down in that scene -- as if he knew he would get what he wanted.
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I always wonder who Jack was with the year before and what went on between them. I'm thinking it wasn't anything like this 1963 summer. Maybe a nice young religious man or something who didn't brook no funny-business?
kathy
I had wondered whether Jack was alone the previous summer.
Was it Jack's first time? Hard to say. He looked more experienced. But even Ennis didn't need an instruction manual.
Nonetheless, it appreas that Jack was more deliberate in his desire for Ennis. He could have been grappling with this before, although I don't know whether this was really what the short story wanted us to think. THe film was a bit more suggestive in this regard.
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I have to ask on what basis is it established that these two scenes were separrate days? Please inform me.
I'd like to know that too...I've never had any reason to think that they were different days :s)
Darn it -- wish you hadn't asked me that. See, I always thought that it was the same day, the Jack-singing scene leading into the lying around wasted later that night, leading into FNIT.
Aha -- I just remembered! Never mind! I should have known better to say something I wasn't certain of amongst fanatical multiple-viewers with sponge memories. What was established (by others, not me) was that SNIT was not the next night from FNIT, that's what it was. Sorry!
I don't watch the movie enough in chronological order, so I get confused. Plus the way it was shot, with close-ups then long shots from all different angles -- sometimes I think it doesn't even look like the same camp -- for instance, from the Jack-singing, through a bunch of other scenes, to the horsing around in the morning through Aguirre's binoculars. It all looks different.
kathy
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There are several scenes leading up to FNIT that show the sky . By the way it looks to me is that they moved the sheep to higher ground very early that morning. The sun is very bright in this scene. Then they find a new campsite and set it up. This is where Ennis is "fixing" the tent and Jack is playin....well practicing whatever his harmonica song. ( by the way, does anyone recognize this tune?) it appears to be late afternoon. Then Jack is siinging but it's getting later into the evening.They talk about reigion (or Jacck's mother's beleifs to be exact) Ennis confesses to Jack in so many words that he's still a virgin. At that, Jack offers Ennis more whiskey. I don't know the amount of time it took Ennis to consume the bottle but by now it's dark and Ennis is totally wasted. The full moon shot and what follows including the previous scenes appear to be one continuous string of events to me This is IMHO.
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The full moon shot and what follows including the previous scenes appear to be one continuous string of events to me This is IMHO.
That's what it seemed like to me too. But, I'm not sure why it makes a difference whether it was the same day or not on Jack's making a move on Ennis. :s)
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I was responding to an earlier comment from Kathy who said that it had been established that the Water Walkin Jesus scene and FNIT happened on two seperate days. She has since made herself clear on the matter. Thanks.
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What makes the diference to me is that this scene contains the strongest indicators that Ennis feels more for Jack than just a casual friendship. The comment about "you may be a sinner" is a matter of not what he said but the way he said it . And that look! When Jack hands him the whiskey, the way he looks at Jack is a dead giveaway to me. It's as if he's contemplating something . I think Jack picked up on this and ..well let's just say he tested his theory.
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I got the impression that the "Pentecost" scene up to the FNIT scene were contiguous. I guess there is no iron-clad reason to say that this is so, but this is indeed my impression. Although BBM spans about 20 years, I tend to think in terms of the "Unities" when it comes to many of the contiguous scenes.
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I'd always assumed it was a connected series of events flowing from at least the point where they are drinking. The "Water-WalkingJesus" thing seems to me to be a time when they're starting to lose control; by the time we see them by the fire they're drunk, though Jack less so than Ennis, then FNIT happens because their inhibitions are lessened and the events that follw could be blamed on being drunk if they later want to disown their actions.
It also seems to me that while Ennis knows what he's saying with "I've not yet had the opportunity", Jack is totally aware of the implications and processes that before the later invitation into the tent. Jack appears to drink without getting as drunk as Ennis, who can barely stand; this also suggests to me that Jack is the more experienced of the two, and I ttransfer that to his being sexually more experienced too.
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I agree. The whiskey was a major factor . It helped Ennis become a little more bolder and Jack more seductive. In the scenes where they are drinking, Ennis is more relaxed and talkative than usaal for sure. The use of alcohol played a big part in this whole encounter. I also agree that Jack was more sexually experienced than Ennis. His actions in the tent suggests to me that this aint his first rodeo. He knew the art of seduction very well which in Jack's case could work on a man or a woman. Definitley.
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Did any of you get the impression that Ennis seemed to have a headache/hangover the next morning whereas Jack seemed ok? I wonder if Jack deliberately held off drinking too much, so that he would make his move with deliberation. Well, a better way to put it was that Jack probably intended to get Ennis to sleep in the same tent with him, and let whatever follows follow...
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Yes, tpe, I got that impression too. When Ennis wakes up he's definitely got that "morning after" look on his face, squinting (more so than normal) against the light and rubbing his eyes, whereas Jack seems to be totally ok when he comes out of the tent. Mind you, by the time we see Jack, Ennis is looking ok too, so maybe Jack looked a bit ropey when he first woke up too :s) I do think that Jack either drank less than Ennis the night before, or could handle his drink better, though...we see Ennis crawling around slurring about going back to the sheep but Jack seems perfectly sober when he goes to get the blanket for Ennis. It could be that Jack did that on purpose, knowing that he needed to remove Ennis's inhibitions if anything was going to happen between them
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Yes, tpe, I got that impression too. When Ennis wakes up he's definitely got that "morning after" look on his face, squinting (more so than normal) against the light and rubbing his eyes, whereas Jack seems to be totally ok when he comes out of the tent. Mind you, by the time we see Jack, Ennis is looking ok too, so maybe Jack looked a bit ropey when he first woke up too :s) I do think that Jack either drank less than Ennis the night before, or could handle his drink better, though...we see Ennis crawling around slurring about going back to the sheep but Jack seems perfectly sober when he goes to get the blanket for Ennis. It could be that Jack did that on purpose, knowing that he needed to remove Ennis's inhibitions if anything was going to happen between them
You are right, NoReins. Jack was able to walk back to the tent and Ennis could barely crawl! THat's a telltale sign.
Ennis still didn't seem to be alright when he was riding back to the sheep. Perhaps it was more of remorse. After all, he did have a lot on his mind at that point...
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Jack had also been round the rodeo circuit where drinking was part of the routine; I reckon he has a better head for alcohol than Ennis because he's done more drinking. Ennis may not have had the opportunity for that either, if he's been living and working with his brother and sister. It's only because the former has just married that Ennis signs on to work on Brokeback - I thing this is the first time he's ever been out on his own being a man rather than a boy.
There may also be an element of bravado in his drinking - to show that he can match Jack. And it you want to, you can extrapolate from that to saying that when Jack reached out to him he responded in a mood of bravado.
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I wonder whether Ennis "intentionally" got himself drunk that night... True, he may not have been a greater drinker than Jack (what is the Methodist attitude to alcohol?), but I wonder whether he WANTED to get drunk that night... It is a possibility worth considering.
Perhaps deep in his heart, he wanted it to happen all along. That was why he id not stop Jack when the crucial moment came...
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Most Protestant groups are not in favor of alcohol. My parents were Methodists ( till they became Baptists when I was in my early teens) and they didn't drink or keep alcohol, other than medicinal brandy,in the house. My mother, also brought up a Methodist, had signed the pedge ie of total abstention from the demon drink, when she was in her teens.
Later when my father moved on socially, professionally and financially both of them changed, though neither was ever a drinker.
I doubt whether Ennis's house would have contained alcohol any more than Jack's. And I bet neither father would have gone out drinking.
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Interesting, Thomas -- I hadn't thought of Ennis's part in perhaps getting intentionally drunk so he could let himself go and see where it led. I do think Jack could just hold it better, and also didn't drink as much as Ennis, but he didn't seem to have to work very hard on getting Ennis drunk. Also, we don't know what-all was said between them after the WWJ-signing scene and before we came upon them flat out by the dying fire. Maybe there was more "flirting." So that by a certain point, Ennis knew perfectly well where it could lead...
I'm so glad we got the SNIT, though, not drunk. Drunk doesn't really count, except as a lubricant, as they say. Without being drunk, we don't know if they ever would have made the first move, either of them.
kathy
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Interesting, Thomas -- I hadn't thought of Ennis's part in perhaps getting intentionally drunk so he could let himself go and see where it led. I do think Jack could just hold it better, and also didn't drink as much as Ennis, but he didn't seem to have to work very hard on getting Ennis drunk. Also, we don't know what-all was said between them after the WWJ-signing scene and before we came upon them flat out by the dying fire. Maybe there was more "flirting." So that by a certain point, Ennis knew perfectly well where it could lead...
I'm so glad we got the SNIT, though, not drunk. Drunk doesn't really count, except as a lubricant, as they say. Without being drunk, we don't know if they ever would have made the first move, either of them.
kathy
kathy, I imagine a natural difference in strategy for each of them. Ennis had issues about his feelings and had to steel himself with drink -- if he ever considered acting on these feelings. Jack knew what he wanted and had to act with deliberation -- there was good reason for him to stay sober if ever he would try to make a move. In some ways, perhaps both acted in accordance with his personal temperament -- but though different in the approaches taken, the desired end was the same for both.
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kathy, I imagine a natural difference in strategy for each of them. Ennis had issues about his feelings and had to steel himself with drink -- if he ever considered acting on these feelings. Jack knew what he wanted and had to act with deliberation -- there was good reason for him to stay sober if ever he would try to make a move. In some ways, perhaps both acted in accordance with his personal temperament -- but though different in the approaches taken, the desired end was the same for both.
Of course, that's right. Not, as I said, that it probably wouldn't have happened if "they" both weren't drunk. But as you said, that it was better for Jack if Ennis were a bit drunk, and he himself was not. Oh, what a fun night that was... But the next night and those following, even better.
kathy
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Just found this thread and haven't read through it yet. I have a one word answer lol: BOOZE.
Those boys got it on as fast as they did for that reason alone--the enormous quantities of liquor they drank. If it wasn't for the whiskey they mihgt never have ended up nekked in the dirt.
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I do think Jack was fairly deliberate in getting what he wanted. I suspect that for all his issues, Ennis abetted this in more subtle and suggestive ways. Perhaps it was all unconscious on his part, but when it was time to decide what to do in the FNIT episode, Ennis was up for the challenge.
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I do think Jack was fairly deliberate in getting what he wanted. I suspect that for all his issues, Ennis abetted this in more subtle and suggestive ways. Perhaps it was all unconscious on his part, but when it was time to decide what to do in the FNIT episode, Ennis was up for the challenge.
Yes, yes. This is a good picture of Ennis, of both of them, well said.
kathy
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I do think Jack was fairly deliberate in getting what he wanted. I suspect that for all his issues, Ennis abetted this in more subtle and suggestive ways. Perhaps it was all unconscious on his part, but when it was time to decide what to do in the FNIT episode, Ennis was up for the challenge.
Well put tpe. Jack knew what he wanted and how to get it.
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I do believe that both of them wanted it to happen.
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I do believe that both of them wanted it to happen.
I think so too. Ennis probably wanted it but was afraid to admit it.
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I think so too. Ennis probably wanted it but was afraid to admit it.
And I think he was also afraid to act on it. Jack needed to make the first move. Had he waited for Ennis, he would have waited for naught.
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Good thing they didn't wait to long to consummate. ;) What with the job being cut short, if either had put off his desires and thought, later, later, it might never have happened...
kathy
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Was there a time before this that Jack could have made his move? Perhaps the first night (according to the book, they both slept in the camp the first night)? Unlikely. The more I think about it, this was the perfect moment. Jack must have certainly engineered all this, helped by a willing Ennis, most likely.
Jack AND Ennis knew exactly waht to do. They desired it. If the consumation was quick, it was perhaps because they had wanted it for some time now...
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Good thing they didn't wait to long to consummate. ;) What with the job being cut short, if either had put off his desires and thought, later, later, it might never have happened...
kathy
Very true Kathy.
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Wasn't it Disney who used to have some slogan that said, "If you can dream it, you can do it" ? Well, I reckon each of them may have thought about the possibilities before FNIT - they were spending a great deal of time tofgether, talking about personal concerns and memories, getting closer.
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Not only that but in the Bucking Horse scene towards the beginning of the movie, That little prolonged stare (he actually leans to get a better look) from Ennis as Jack rode away was Very telling on Ennis's part. I've only seen this move when someone really likes what they see from the back when that person is walking (or in this case) riding away. Jack did'nt see this, but WE did Ennis you sly little devil.! Perhaps Ennis was smitten earlier than we thought huh? Mr. Ennisence? I wonder some times.
Happy Holidays everybody!!!
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Not only that but in the Bucking Horse scene towards the beginning of the movie, That little prolonged stare (he actually leans to get a better look) from Ennis as Jack rode away was Very telling on Ennis's part. I've only seen this move when someone really likes what they see from the back when that person is walking (or in this case) riding away. Jack did'nt see this, but WE did Ennis you sly little devil.! Perhaps Ennis was smitten earlier than we thought huh? Mr. Ennisence? I wonder some times.
:8 :8 :8
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Not only that but in the Bucking Horse scene towards the beginning of the movie, That little prolonged stare (he actually leans to get a better look) from Ennis as Jack rode away was Very telling on Ennis's part. I've only seen this move when someone really likes what they see from the back when that person is walking (or in this case) riding away. Jack did'nt see this, but WE did Ennis you sly little devil.! Perhaps Ennis was smitten earlier than we thought huh? Mr. Ennisence? I wonder some times.
Happy Holidays everybody!!!
Now get your mind out of the gutter (or is it out of the glorious and passionate heights of the angels?), we know Mr. Ennisence (funny!) was watching Jack ride away to check out his riding skills, make sure he was treating that mare right.
kathy
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Jack AND Ennis knew exactly waht to do. They desired it. If the consumation was quick, it was perhaps because they had wanted it for some time now...
Interesting point.
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Yeah, uh huh, I see, ....... Riiiiggghhhttt!!!.............. And I'm the Easter bunny.
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Wasn't it Disney who used to have some slogan that said, "If you can dream it, you can do it" ? Well, I reckon each of them may have thought about the possibilities before FNIT - they were spending a great deal of time tofgether, talking about personal concerns and memories, getting closer.
I think so too.
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Not only that but in the Bucking Horse scene towards the beginning of the movie, That little prolonged stare (he actually leans to get a better look) from Ennis as Jack rode away was Very telling on Ennis's part. I've only seen this move when someone really likes what they see from the back when that person is walking (or in this case) riding away. Jack did'nt see this, but WE did Ennis you sly little devil.! Perhaps Ennis was smitten earlier than we thought huh? Mr. Ennisence? I wonder some times.
Happy Holidays everybody!!!
Happy Holidays, aintfoolin. :)
Ennis may be more reserved than Jack, but I think his desires were just as strong. That's waht surprises us many times -- the strong passion that is just beneath the stoic surface.
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Not only that but in the Bucking Horse scene towards the beginning of the movie, That little prolonged stare (he actually leans to get a better look) from Ennis as Jack rode away was Very telling on Ennis's part. I've only seen this move when someone really likes what they see from the back when that person is walking (or in this case) riding away. Jack did'nt see this, but WE did Ennis you sly little devil.! Perhaps Ennis was smitten earlier than we thought huh? Mr. Ennisence? I wonder some times.
Happy Holidays everybody!!!
Now get your mind out of the gutter (or is it out of the glorious and passionate heights of the angels?), we know Mr. Ennisence (funny!) was watching Jack ride away to check out his riding skills, make sure he was treating that mare right.
kathy
Even in the very first scenes outside and in Aguirre's trailer, we see hints that Ennis WAS interested. It was more of a question of being able to act on his desires, I guess. When the FNIT scene finally unfolded, we are quite surprised nonetheless to see him take the lead.
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I agree totally Tpe. Those hints in the opening scenes did not go unnoticed. What was Jack thinking?, tempting a poor naive, little country boy like Ennis. SMILES. There ought to be a law against leaning on trucks lookin that good. And your right about him taking the lead in FNIT. I guess when you offer a banquet to a starving man ........well he's gonna help himself. Even came back for seconds........But seriously though, someone like Ennis, who keeps his emotions bottled up for so long when they finally let go of all the pent up feelings, they REALLY let go. This is also evident later on when he gets angry at times.
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That little prolonged stare (he actually leans to get a better look)Even in the very first scenes outside and in Aguirre's trailer, we see hints that Ennis WAS interestedEnnis may be more reserved than Jack, but I think his desires were just as strong. That's waht surprises us many times -- the strong passion that is just beneath the stoic surface.- they were spending a great deal of time tofgether, talking about personal concerns and memories, getting closer.
:c) Subtlety .. not enough can be said about it
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I agree totally Tpe. Those hints in the opening scenes did not go unnoticed. What was Jack thinking?, tempting a poor naive, little country boy like Ennis. SMILES. There ought to be a law against leaning on trucks lookin that good. And your right about him taking the lead in FNIT. I guess when you offer a banquet to a starving man ........well he's gonna help himself. Even came back for seconds........But seriously though, someone like Ennis, who keeps his emotions bottled up for so long when they finally let go of all the pent up feelings, they REALLY let go. This is also evident later on when he gets angry at times.
I love your analogy here, aintfoolin: a straving man helping himself. And you also seem to interpret Jack leaning on his truck as a kind of suggestion.
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More like an invitation.
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More like an invitation.
The right word!
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I very much admire this in Jack, He sees what he wants, and goes after it.......With GUSTO. Hot.
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I very much admire this in Jack, He sees what he wants, and goes after it.......With GUSTO. Hot.
I suspect that Ennis felt the heat of those stares in the opening scenes and must have felt overwhelmed. Jack at least had the good sense to go after Ennis in stages. But yes, Jack certainly knew what he wanted from the onset. I can only add that as the "chase" progressed up in BBM, Jack must have only come to realize even more that Ennis was the one.
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Correct, Jack had sense enough to "rein it in" once he found out a little more about Ennis's shy, quiet manner.But this did not diminish the intensity of those feelings Jack had. He took the route of freindship first, drawing Ennis in with that wonderful charm and understanding patience. By the time Jack decided to "go for the gold" Ennis was heilpless to resist. Who could?
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Correct, Jack had sense enough to "rein it in" once he found out a little more about Ennis's shy, quiet manner.But this did not diminish the intensity of those feelings Jack had. He took the route of freindship first, drawing Ennis in with that wonderful charm and understanding patience. By the time Jack decided to "go for the gold" Ennis was heilpless to resist. Who could?
I suspect that Jack was initially not sure if Ennis would even accept his friendship. But he didn't let that get in the way of drawing him in -- a wonderful way of putting it, aintfoolin. Indeed, he gradually drew Ennis in -- slowly, but surely.
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Yep, sometimes love sneaks up on you and steals your heart away like a theif in the night. Jack's love became an irresistable force in Ennis's life that he did'nt want to stop. Brokeback indeed " got him good" .
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How ironic then that they use fishing trips as a cover for their meetings - you could see Jack as the fisherman, reeling Ennis in slowly and carefully, so as not to lose him. And of course that ties up with the lassooing scene where he does the same.
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Very well said welshwitch. Will I ever get tired of finding new ways to look at this story? :s)
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In the scene where Jack sitting pulling thorns or whatever out of the sheep's feet ,(or is it hoofs?) oh well anyway notice how far away from Jack Ennis is sitting. Jack must have thought Ennis did'nt like him and that it was going to be a long lonely summer. But he charmed his way into Ennis's heart.Gawd WW I just pictured Jack in a pair of those waders, with a fishing pole reeling Ennis in . ADORABLE!
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How ironic then that they use fishing trips as a cover for their meetings - you could see Jack as the fisherman, reeling Ennis in slowly and carefully, so as not to lose him. And of course that ties up with the lassooing scene where he does the same.
Wonderful metaphor. :)
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And of course that ties up with the lassooing scene where he does the same.
hee hee no pun intended? :8
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How ironic then that they use fishing trips as a cover for their meetings - you could see Jack as the fisherman, reeling Ennis in slowly and carefully, so as not to lose him. And of course that ties up with the lassooing scene where he does the same.
Excellent!
kathy
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I believe they both knew. The sexual tension was there from the moment they met, apparent to all. Ennis being Ennis however, nothing may have come of it if he wasn't drunk as an owl that night: booze certainly eased that path. I think Jack himself was so drunk and so turned on he just thought WTF and pulled Ennis' hand to his erection.
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I believe they both knew. The sexual tension was there from the moment they met, apparent to all. Ennis being Ennis however, nothing may have come of it if he wasn't drunk as an owl that night: booze certainly eased that path. I think Jack himself was so drunk and so turned on he just thought WTF and pulled Ennis' hand to his erection.
Yes, both of them must have known. Even Ennis must have known for some time before the FNIT that he wanted Jack. Acting on it is a different issue....
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I will say that the alcohol played a big part in this as I stated earlier, but don't feel that it was the only thing. There was also strong feelings of desire there. The driving force. They both wanted it to happen as far as I;m concerned. The booze helped but I think Jack would did what he did without it. He was'nt that wasted. Ennis was. Don't know how long they slept(questionable IMO on Jack's part) but Ennis apparently did long enough to perform.....ahem.......beautifully. Hangover and all.*grins slyly*
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Oh sure, they wanted each other. yet i still feel booze speeded it up. It removed certain inhibitions which might never have been overcome.
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Agreed!
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According to Shakespeare, alcohol provokes the desire but takes away the performance - just for once in this case it appears he was wrong.
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IT DEPENDS ON YOUR AGE lolololol.
At 19, I remember being completely blasted and the only effect was lasting for hours. HOURS.
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During their first time on Brokeback, Jack made it clear that he needed Ennis. Everything that Jack wanted, Ennis gave to him. It was clear that Ennis would not have gone through the extra trouble for Jack unless there were some reciprocal feelings there. I thought the scene of Jack teasing Ennis with the lasso was very symbolic. Ennis wasn't even aware that Jack had flung the rope exactly in his footsteps until he became entangled in it and fell. By that time, Ennis had already fallen emotionally for Jack. It was just that Ennis wasn't cognizant of just how much, until after Jack left. I will never forget that pleading "are you gonna do this again?" look on Jack's face. It had to have taken all the strength within Ennis to deny that. And when Ennis collapses in a retching fit, shortly after Jack drives away, we see that indeed it did. That, to me, spoke of serious love most of us are lucky to get once in a lifetime.
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well sure anita. Yet it doesn't answer the question of what prompted the initial move between 2 men, 2 very macho type men. All those things were after they had slept together initially.And those 2 had a powerful powerful attraction from the moment they met........
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That Jack made a move may have been inevitable, given his strong attraction and their intimate proximity at that point. No matter how much planning or self-restraint may have been in the mix as far as Jack (or Ennnis) was concerned, we cannot discount the possibility that the initial action by Jack was impromptu. There was an opening - and Jack took the change right there and then.
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I've always thought that it's much more than sex with Jack . Sacrifice and love went hand in hand for him . He did alot of it in this film, some large, some small. including FNIT IMO. He had fallen in love and wanted to show Ennis who he was.Jack knew Ennis was a virgin and HE wanted to be his first lover. When Ennis stopped resisting and gave in to his seduction he knew he had made the right move , although he knew Alma waited in the wings, Ennis was his. he was even more convinced in SNIT when Ennis came to HIM .in a sweet surrender. :^^) :c) <^(
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A freind commented to me after seeing this film that" Damn! Jack was willing to leave his wife and child just like that?..". and SHE is a lesbian. . My response? Yep, He loved him more. Jack sacrificed alot for Ennis... .Alot.
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Jack sacrificed alot for Ennis... .Alot.
He did . . . He really did. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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I've always thought that it's much more than sex with Jack . Sacrifice and love went hand in hand for him . He did alot of it in this film, some large, some small. including FNIT IMO. He had fallen in love and wanted to show Ennis who he was.Jack knew Ennis was a virgin and HE wanted to be his first lover. When Ennis stopped resisting and gave in to his seduction he knew he had made the right move , although he knew Alma waited in the wings, Ennis was his. he was even more convinced in SNIT when Ennis came to HIM .in a sweet surrender. :^^) :c) <^(
Did any of you get the feeling that in the first moments of the FNIT, Jack was prepared to take either role (active or passive) with Ennis? His unbuckling his belt made me initially think he was about to take the active role. But he submitted himself to the passive role when Ennis responded. Yes, I think Jack wanted to offer himself up to Ennis that very moment. He knew he was Ennis's first lover, and wanted that moment to be an expereince that Ennis would cherish. But Ennis was too rough on the edges at this point, sothe act didn't turn out the way Jack had perhaps wanted. I think it was in the SNIT that we see him attempting this: taking possession of Ennis in a way that nurtured him.
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I love that descriptive tpe. Beautifully put.
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Thanks FlwrChild. You know, the SNIT looked like a mother putting is child to sleep. THe roles are reversed in the dozy embrace. In both, we sense a nurturing, protective affection.
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That's what shows it's the real thing - not just eros but agape.
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I've always thought that it's much more than sex with Jack . Sacrifice and love went hand in hand for him . He did alot of it in this film, some large, some small. including FNIT IMO. He had fallen in love and wanted to show Ennis who he was.Jack knew Ennis was a virgin and HE wanted to be his first lover. When Ennis stopped resisting and gave in to his seduction he knew he had made the right move , although he knew Alma waited in the wings, Ennis was his. he was even more convinced in SNIT when Ennis came to HIM .in a sweet surrender. :^^) :c) <^(
Lovely words, painting such a beautiful picture, aintfoolin. I don't know that we've focussed very much on Ennis being a virgin, with men anyway. In other m/m pairings I've known, this is a really special element -- usually more special when it is the first time with a man for both of them. But I loved just thinking about how beutiful it is that Jack wanted to, and got to be, Ennis's first lover. First, breaking the barriers with the raw sex of FNIT. And then, face to face (at least what we see) SNIT. Ennis's surrender -- so beautiful. I love surrender. Besides the way he came into the tent and let Jack show him what to do, I just love how he urges Jack to turn over and be on top, and this is very surrender-ish, very beautiful. Especially that moment when he just lets his arms fall to the side...do with me what you will, Jack. Oh, I'm getting all mushy here... What thread am I on?
kathy
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Did any of you get the feeling that in the first moments of the FNIT, Jack was prepared to take either role (active or passive) with Ennis? His unbuckling his belt made me initially think he was about to take the active role. But he submitted himself to the passive role when Ennis responded. Yes, I think Jack wanted to offer himself up to Ennis that very moment. He knew he was Ennis's first lover, and wanted that moment to be an expereince that Ennis would cherish. But Ennis was too rough on the edges at this point, sothe act didn't turn out the way Jack had perhaps wanted. I think it was in the SNIT that we see him attempting this: taking possession of Ennis in a way that nurtured him.
I can sure see this, Thomas, that Jack could have gone either way, depending on Ennis's response. I'm thinking, though, that he wasn't overly worried about it being all perfect and loving -- I think however it happened was going to be fine, because the ice just needed to be broken. If Ennis had been really shy, then Jack could easily have taken over. But the way Ennis wanted what he wanted and proceeded to take it -- this was probably a major turn-on for Jack also, letting Ennis do him if that's what he wanted.
Then, yes, SNIT was almost really their first time -- consciously and soberly loving each other and finding out how they wanted to do that. Except we don't know. So we can only surmise...and surmise we do.
kathy
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I agree with you Kathy on this. Jack was gonna take it anyway he could get it at this point. He was just so in love with him by that time and wanted Ennis that bad ,and Ennis soon discovered what he'd been missing! A serious love relationship and excellent sex. <^(
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Jack would have let Ennis top, bottom, masturbate, get oral ---whatever Ennis wanted, Jack would have been ok with.
jack wanted Ennis. Anyway he could get him. And i still think the booze provided the actual impetus, w/o it they would have circled one another forever.
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Some people say that without the booze nothing would have happened,I disagree with this. Would Jack and Ennis have done what they did eventually without being drunk? True, the whiskey no doubt lowered their inhibitions but I think even without the booze eventually somebody would have made a move ( probably Jack) by the way they felt about each other, and the progressive nature of the feelings in the relationship, It would have had them doing the same thing sooner....or later. Booze or no booze.This is IMHO
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I suspect that alcohol was used (knowingly or subconsciously) by both of them to reach their intended goal. Yes, for me, it was just a matter of time. For me, it was not alcohol that really made it happen -- it was simply used as a means to achieve a desired end.
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I don't think 'nothing' would have happened if they didn't have all that booze, but IMO it would have taken much longer, longer then the time they had on BBM. Just a male point of view, and that's what we're speaking of-- a M/M relationship between 2 macho 19 year olds. They may have wanted each other badly, yet IMO fear would have held them back. They drank like fish up there lol. And with guys like that booze brings everything out, you do things which cold sober you would never have the nerve to do. Now me and my 1 and only BF, we didn't have any booze. It was not just an AHA moment when we set eyes on each other, it was a Holy Shit!!!!! Jack-Twist-in Aguirre's-parking-lot moment. It took damned near 2 years w/o booze lololol.
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I clearly understand what you are saying although I think the setting was also a contributing factor to what transpired between these two. Isolated on Brokeback mountain, with no distractions except a thousand sheep and blue birds singing it was the perfect setting to fall in love and get it on. ultimately the feelings were there, and so was the booze . These two factors definitly played a big part in this whole process hand in hand IMO. Thanks.
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Alcohol is here the vehicle under which their inhibitions are trampled underfoot.
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You and aintfoolin really do complement each other's thoughts on this, one leading to the other.... Very cool! makes for lots of insights IMO.
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Alcohol is here the vehicle under which their inhibitions are trampled underfoot.
Alcohol helped release the repressed side of Ennis . . . With a little help from Jack.
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You and aintfoolin really do complement each other's thoughts on this, one leading to the other.... Very cool! makes for lots of insights IMO.
Well, I should thank everyone here for such interesting ideas.
I really didn't get the impression that Ennis and Jack were helpless drunkards, although both seemed to have been fairly good drinkers. I think their use of alcohol was very calculated. Sure, a lot of times, it was for leisure (like smokes, for example). IN the case of Jack, his drinking certainly had a darker side, revealed by Lureen in the end. For Ennis, it also served as a way to face up to (or forget?) certain things that were just too tough to handle by the light of day, so to speak; specifically: his love for Jack.
So in this sense, alchohol did play a part in fighting off their inhibitions and fears.
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You and aintfoolin really do complement each other's thoughts on this, one leading to the other.... Very cool! makes for lots of insights IMO.
Well, I should thank everyone here for such interesting ideas.
I really didn't get the impression that Ennis and Jack were helpless drunkards, although both seemed to have been fairly good drinkers. I think their use of alcohol was very calculated. Sure, a lot of times, it was for leisure (like smokes, for example). IN the case of Jack, his drinking certainly had a darker side, revealed by Lureen in the end. For Ennis, it also served as a way to face up to (or forget?) certain things that were just too tough to handle by the light of day, so to speak; specifically: his love for Jack.
So in this sense, alchohol did play a part in fighting off their inhibitions and fears.
Yes, Thomas, that's true for a lot of people,indeed!!!
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Yes, Mars. I do think a lot of people drink to forget, no? Nothing wrong with that, except that for Ennis and Jack and a lot of people, problems don't go away when they sober up...
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I suppose I agree that the setting had a lot to do with it too - they are completely isolated, particularly at night - when Aguirre comes up it's only in times of emergency and in the middle of the day. No-one can see them, no-one is ever going to have to know what happens there - there must be a sense of being free, not "cabinn'd, cribb'd, confin'd, bound in" by the expectations and critical observations of others.If they get drunk, no-one's going to comment adversely; the same thing applies if they fall in love.
There's also the fact that they are very much dependent on each other for companionship, help and protection.
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Well I'm off topic with this but every recovering alcoholic I know said Jack Twist looked like he needed Alcoholics Anonymous lol. [ That boy really needs a meeting' was the general comment rofl] He was no stereotypical hopeless drunkard yet most aren't. He kept the job, etc. He had all the signs up on BB and from Lureen's comment--'He drank a LOT.' it seems as if was born out; by the end he certainly drank alcoholically--which does not mean he was incapable of functioning at all, and his wife had no doubts on it. When someone says 'He drank a LOT' the person in question tends to have a problem.
It's a trap, at first it removes inhibitions then it becomes 'one of the two things I need right now.' If you need it, you have a problem. And the way he drank that whiskey --especially at the end of the short story--defined a problem. Several problems. AP said something about his drinking as well, back in October.
I said in another post that the alcohol lubricated their romance, made it easier for the move to be made. Personally I'd like to think they'd have jumped each other without it but have doubts about that road...they were hot for each other yet scared, very scared. If Jack had made a move sober there might have been a different outcome. Fear adds a need for time, and they hardly had any, especially with Aguirre telling them to 'take em down' a month early.
Who knows, it's all conjecture, but the conjecture often leads to real insight.
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Personally, I suspect that Jack was sober in the FNIT. Everything seemed to indicate that this was the case. The way he picked himself up and got Ennis a blanket before turning himself in, the fact that he tied the tent flaps securely, and the fact that he was disturbed by Ennis chattering from the cold -- all seemed to indicate that he was not drunk. Contrast this with Ennis, who couldn't even stand up when it was time to go back to the sheep.
I think I mentioned before that I believe that Jack engineered this all along -- to get Ennis drunk while he himself took care to remain reasonably sober. When Jack took Ennis's hand, I suspect that he did this with full possession of his faculties-- not as a drunken faux pas. I would even say that he was calculating -- trying to get Ennis into the tent and finally making his move.
Jack's alcoholism appeared later -- much later: when it gradually dawned on him year after frustrating year that he can never get Ennis to consent to a shared life together. At this stage - alcohol was the symptom of the real problem, and not the cause.
Finally, I should also say that I believe that Ennis probably got himself drunk intentionally. He needed the courage, perhaps, to go along with Jack's plans. Whether this was intentional or subconscious does not matter too much. Ennis used drink to steel himself for the moment he himself desired most deeply.
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That is something I have always raised an eyebrow at. Jack was drinkin, sure enuff, and he was lying back, same as Ennis. Yet he was MUCH more sober-appearing then Ennis prior to FNIT, just as you point out Thomas... The scene where' guys like us march off to hell...'--when Ennis replies that he hasn't yet had the opportunity on his face, as Jack responds, well, Ennis has this half smirky knowing look. He all but gives Jack' That Look', the one which says I know where you're at, and look at the glances he gives Jack.....
. Jack symbolically hands him the apple in the Garden of Eden, in this case a bottle of whiskey. Ennis accepts, and Jack looks delighted, absolutely elated, go back and check out that brilliant & nodding 'yeahyeahyeah okIGOTIT, cowboy!' smile on the DVD.
It's as if Jack knew--which he may have--and stayed sober, allowing Ennis to get completely sh*tfaced drunk. He understood EDM well enough by then to know in his gut that Ennis needed a shove and something to reduce his fear. Because --and you pointed this out--when he handed EDM that blanket he looked very sober. And he sounded dashed when Ennis said he would curl up by the fire. Jack may have simply had enough and said to hell with this, time to make that move.
You have me thinking here dude.....I always thought Jack was simply responding to Ennis' admission that he hadn't much experience, hadn't had the opportunity. But now, well what do you think on this??
Jack
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Brokeback_1, have you been in an situation like this before with someone? Truthfully, I know I have. Which is why I can't help thinking that Jack did it this way. So perhaps I am thniking this way by way of extension of my own experiences. Please don't judge me too harshly. :)
Although Jack was never shown to be drunk in any of the later scenes, I suspect that he must have been quite a serious case in the end. Lureen's bried mention of it in her conversation with Ennis probably understated the reality.
It's a sad contrast to Jack of the FNIT, who had the will and the way to get what he wanted.
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Yep, I've been there. No apologies are necessary, both the film and book were designed to make the viewer/reader get answers from their own experiences and hearts.
W/O booze it took us 2 years of peeling potatos. And that's AFTER a true HOLY CRAP!!! moment when we were introduced! After what i can only call a campfire scene[ lol ]it took a few weeks, but then neither of us was together on a mountain. When it DID happen it was along the lines of enough allready, I got thrown into a wall with a reunion kiss. He was the coolest guy, I once told him in real bafflement that i didn't understand why all these people tended to go after me and he fell on the floor said 'don't change. please stay dumb' rofl.
So jack seduced ennis!!! what a courtship....
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Yep, I've been there. No apologies are necessary, both the film and book were designed to make the viewer/reader get answers from their own experiences and hearts.
W/O booze it took us 2 years of peeling potatos. And that's AFTER a true HOLY CRAP!!! moment when we were introduced! After what i can only call a campfire scene[ lol ]it took a few weeks, but then neither of us was together on a mountain. When it DID happen it was along the lines of enough allready, I got thrown into a wall with a reunion kiss. He was the coolest guy, I once told him in real bafflement that i didn't understand why all these people tended to go after me and he fell on the floor said 'don't change. please stay dumb' rofl.
So jack seduced ennis!!! what a courtship....
Thanks, Brokeback_1, for sharing this. When we think of our expereinces about making the first move, some of it strikes me as quite awkward. I suspect that there is no tried and tested way to go about this -- except that alcohol must have played a part in a lot of people's individual expereinces.
Perhaps other people may disagree with the idea that Jack seduced Ennis. I do think there is a grain of truth to this idea of seduction. But there is the other side of the coin: technically, you don't seduce the willing. ;)
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True enough, but don't you agree Brokeback and tpe that drinking does not always lead to drunkeness.? That there are different degrees of drunkiness? Ennis was drunk, no doubt, (although he did have a little "nap" there before Jack grabbed him), but Jack probably had just enough in his system to feel bolder, and relaxed but he was'nt falling down drunk like Ennis , therfore he was able to think pretty much clearly.
I think that Jack was very seductive in FNIT, though Jack did'nt know at first that Ennis would be willing to participate. His gestures ( placing Ennis's hand on his erection, the nuzzling forehead, and that look ( "you want this") in those big blue eyes sealed the deal for Ennis I think.Where there's a wii, there a way as the saying goes, Jack took it to a new level in my opinion.
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Hello aintfoolin. Yes, I agree. And as I said, I believe that Jack did things with great deliberation here. He just drank enough to bolster enough courage to see things through.
There must have been someting n Ennis's eyes, something in his touch, that signalled Jack that he had won. This is clear when he decided to start unbuckling. Well, maybe Jack couldn't help himself. Jack the seducer was too drunk with passion (not alcohol) to pull himself back from the edge of the precipice. He so wanted to jump. The seducer was himself helpless to resist.
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Hello tpe, Yes he was very deliberate in his actions here. Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it. it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons and removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him. Maybe some one has a meaningful quote about the "art " of seduction. he definitly could'nt help himself.
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Hello tpe, Yes he was very deliberate in his actions here. Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it. it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons and removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him. Maybe some one has a meaningful quote about the "art " of seduction. he definitly could'nt help himself.
Dear God, I had not noticed this. aintfoolin, I must look at this carefully. That is indeed quite a deliberate action. Very bold, even for someone with Jack's experience.
The art of seduction is isndeed an Art. WE often say that the FNIT was so rough and tumble.
Now, I think it has a severe underlying grace.
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I always thought there was a 'severe and underlying grace' in that scene, and that's a beautiful phrase. I called it a grim teenaged determination to show love with grace. Yours is much better lol.
The grace was there in SNIT, for all to see.
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So true Brokeback and tpe. Their movements, gestures, and eye contact and the silence all gave it a graceful flow.An "underlying grace" indeed .Beutifully said.
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Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it. it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons and removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him.
I noticed that the second time I watched, aintfoolin. I think by that point he knows that Ennis isn't going to hit him or run out of the tent so he moves Ennis's hand both to let him know exactly what he wants and, perhaps, to try to get Ennis aroused too, assuming that he wasn't already.
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THe FNIT is on the surface quite awkward, but I don't doubt that every motion had its place, every glance its significance.
In the SNIT, each of them seemed to know what was expected of them, as if everything was preordained.
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Dear God, I had not noticed this. aintfoolin, I must look at this carefully. That is indeed quite a deliberate action. Very bold, even for someone with Jack's experience.
The art of seduction is isndeed an Art. WE often say that the FNIT was so rough and tumble.
Now, I think it has a severe underlying grace.
You are so right, T., and beautiful words. FNIT not just a drunken fumble, but replete with that art of seduction. I want to go back and look at that if I can see that Jack takes Ennis's hand again when they are forehead-to-forehead, before he unbuckles.
As to drinking... I've been sober 21 years, but I certainly put in my time drinking, and grew up in a drinking household and in drinking times with drinking friends, etc. There's drinking, and there's high, tipsy, which doesn't mean drunk. I really don't think they drank all that much. Around the campfire every night, that's just what you did. I certainly did that on all my camping trips back then. I think Jack's drinking "a lot" was later, as others have mentioned.
But as to that night, FNIT, I think it's as Thomas said, that Ennis drank more than he might have, to give himself that liquid courage so to speak; Jack drank maybe less than he might have, to be sure to make what he wanted to happen happen.
kathy
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Alcohol certainly worked wonders on Ennis judging from how he became much more talkative after Jack poured him a cup in the earlier scene. Jack seemed amazed. To Ennis it WAS "liquid courage" to say and do things that he otherwise would not. And he knew it. Maybe that's why he drank so much of it before FNIT, but he did fall asleep twice( more like passed out twice) before the actual act went down,so might the effects be lessened some after "sleeping it off a little + plus he was shivering cold which also can have a sobering effect.
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Hello tpe, Yes he was very deliberate in his actions here. Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it. it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons and removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him. Maybe some one has a meaningful quote about the "art " of seduction. he definitly could'nt help himself.
aintfoolin i had never noticed this. I can't believe i missed it. I am rendered even more speechless by this scene now - i had concentrated so much on their facial expressions i hadn't noticed what was going on just out of shot - AMAZING.
How very forward of Jack hehe, and it adds so much more to the scene in terms of their feelings for each other. Ennis doesn't try to snatch his hand away by this point - Jack knew he had him. ;)
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It also reinforced that Jack knew Ennis felt the same , but knew he could'nt seem to express it. . It 's as if Jack said "I know , and I'll show you how it can begin" His determination to show Ennis the way he felt about him was also amazing.I liked it.
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Happy New Year to all of you!!!
I love this thread and just wanted to say that I'm in NYC preparing for our wedding: you have one nervous groom here!! [LOLOL] But I suppose 30 years has been long enough to wait, Katrina and i have loved each other from the day we met, at age 19.
We will get married on Saturday afternoon and then go on a honeymoon; we should be back in Denver by January 20, after which there is a reception given THERE by her mother ....she insisted, it was supposed to be small and has become larger then the wedding reception here in NY; these things make me quite nervous LOL..... so after that one I will be back posting. You will all undoubtedly have written some great things for me catch up with!! If I can, I will visit.....
I hope each and every one of my fellow posters has a wonderful New Year, you yourselves and every member of your families...and Jack and Ennis too!
Love,
Jack.
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You are so right, T., and beautiful words. FNIT not just a drunken fumble, but replete with that art of seduction. I want to go back and look at that if I can see that Jack takes Ennis's hand again when they are forehead-to-forehead, before he unbuckles.
As to drinking... I've been sober 21 years, but I certainly put in my time drinking, and grew up in a drinking household and in drinking times with drinking friends, etc. There's drinking, and there's high, tipsy, which doesn't mean drunk. I really don't think they drank all that much. Around the campfire every night, that's just what you did. I certainly did that on all my camping trips back then. I think Jack's drinking "a lot" was later, as others have mentioned.
But as to that night, FNIT, I think it's as Thomas said, that Ennis drank more than he might have, to give himself that liquid courage so to speak; Jack drank maybe less than he might have, to be sure to make what he wanted to happen happen.
kathy
Thanks kathy. I like that term: liquid courage! Ennis certainly appeared shy in Jack's presence, no? I remember most that slightly embarrassed smile he had when he was late for the first fishing trip immediately after the reunion trip. I think he needed something like alcohol to fortify him against being painfully shy with Jack.
So I do think that Ennis didn't exactly make the first move NOT because it didn't enter his mind; rather, he didn;t make the first move becauser he was a bit abashed in Jack's presence. He certainly gave enough hints to Jack, nonetheless...
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aintfoolin i had never noticed this. I can't believe i missed it. I am rendered even more speechless by this scene now - i had concentrated so much on their facial expressions i hadn't noticed what was going on just out of shot - AMAZING.
How very forward of Jack hehe, and it adds so much more to the scene in terms of their feelings for each other. Ennis doesn't try to snatch his hand away by this point - Jack knew he had him. ;)
I'm glad I'm not the only one. ;)
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Happy New Year to all of you!!!
OT: A Happy New Year to you too, Jack. Again, congratulations!
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aintfoolin i had never noticed this. I can't believe i missed it. I am rendered even more speechless by this scene now - i had concentrated so much on their facial expressions i hadn't noticed what was going on just out of shot - AMAZING.
How very forward of Jack hehe, and it adds so much more to the scene in terms of their feelings for each other. Ennis doesn't try to snatch his hand away by this point - Jack knew he had him. ;)
I know what you mean, too, when you're so fixed on watching their faces and might miss other things. And you're right. Jack brought Ennis's hand there again, and Ennis didn't take it away -- that was a very pregnant pause in movement there for some moments -- and that's when Jack took the liberty of beginning to disrobe. Jeez, what a powerful thing...
kathy
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I know what you mean, too, when you're so fixed on watching their faces and might miss other things. And you're right. Jack brought Ennis's hand there again, and Ennis didn't take it away -- that was a very pregnant pause in movement there for some moments -- and that's when Jack took the liberty of beginning to disrobe. Jeez, what a powerful thing...
kathy
I went and took a look for myself and it totally happens. I am stunned and giddy. To put it bluntly, that is hot. Because the whole time after Jack puts Ennis's hand back there Ennis is staring at Jack's face and Jack is staring right back. It's incredible the heat and intensity that is shared in those few seconds. And Jack's heavy breathing after he puts Ennis's hand back on him. Fhew.. get me some cold water ASAP! :d)
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.........And after you take a drink, Please pass it to me! This is definitley is hot, actually willing Ennis into his space with that seductive gaze ,(sssiiggghhhh). This is why I emphasize Jack's BOLD determination to bed Ennis. To be Ennis's 1rst real lover? How good does it get? Pretty damn good to me. ;) <^(They're both dreams come true. :c) :d)
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The detail about the hand strengthens my admiration for both actors' commitment to veracity and attention to detail. I don't think Ang Lee went into such detail when directing this scene.
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The detail about the hand strengthens my admiration for both actors' commitment to veracity and attention to detail. I don't think Ang Lee went into such detail when directing this scene.
I agree. I would be willing to wager that a lot of this "extra" stuff we are discovering was ad-libbed by Heath and Jake. I salute them for paying such close attention to these things, they are truly revolutionary.
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I agree. I would be willing to wager that a lot of this "extra" stuff we are discovering was ad-libbed by Heath and Jake. I salute them for paying such close attention to these things, they are truly revolutionary.
I guess this was also part of Ang Lee's methodology. I knew that Jake hated it, but came to an understanding of it.
The interplay of FNIT (Jack making his move on Ennis) is so awkward -- true to life, I suppose, as both Heath and Jake were probably guessing how this was to be played out. Their instincts and good taste were not off the mark.
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I know what you mean, too, when you're so fixed on watching their faces and might miss other things. And you're right. Jack brought Ennis's hand there again, and Ennis didn't take it away -- that was a very pregnant pause in movement there for some moments -- and that's when Jack took the liberty of beginning to disrobe. Jeez, what a powerful thing...
kathy
It has tripled the tension and downright sensuality of this scene for me. Isn't that the beautiful thing about these discussion forums? Chances are i might have never noticed this - i am always concentrating so hard on Ennis' hands clamped to the sides of Jack's head. There is an almost caress there as they search each others eyes that stops my breath in my throat.
First time i saw it i saw quite a brutal sex scene, all these intimate details slipped by. Now i see the beginning of love.
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Love can indeed be so brutal. The FNIT is clumsy -- no doubt about it. What should we expect? It was the start of their exploration of each other in the physical sense. In real life, this can be quite rough.
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Love can indeed be so brutal. The FNIT is clumsy -- no doubt about it. What should we expect? It was the start of their exploration of each other in the physical sense. In real life, this can be quite rough.
Thats very true. It would have bben so easy to have made this scene twee, particularly as there isn't THAT much detail in the SS. It's a testament to the screenwriters and Ang that they chose this route instead. Far more realistic (IMHO)
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Love can indeed be so brutal. The FNIT is clumsy -- no doubt about it. What should we expect? It was the start of their exploration of each other in the physical sense. In real life, this can be quite rough.
It's just so true to life. Especially for two 19 year old boys one for sure being a virgin at the time. It seems the more I watch this scene the more I become enlightened to the budding romance. Initially it seems like a meaningless quickie between two young boys, but the more you watch the more you see and I am at the point now where I can almost see Ennis coming apart at the seams and giving in to his desires.
From the minute he jumps up and the way he is still pretty much asleep for those first few seconds, it was something I never noticed before and it was so well played out by Heath. He jumps up and I can't even think of the words to describe it. It's just total disorientation on Ennis's part and then Jack takes Ennis's hand and places it on his erection and looks at his face almost as if to say "I'm yours." After that Ennis wakes up a bit and tries once more to fight it off.
Did anyone else notice the noise their heads make when the put their heads together? It's a loud THUMP and I never heard it until last night. That added even more intensity to the entire scene, it seemed.
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I had not heard the noise, which doesn't mean much as I was not attentive to this nuance. Still, the moment of "jumping up" is so violent and gracefully fluid at the same time. Do you get what I mean by this?
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I had not heard the noise, which doesn't mean much as I was not attentive to this nuance. Still, the moment of "jumping up" is so violent and gracefully fluid at the same time. Do you get what I mean by this?
Yes, I do. Ennis hesitates a minute, even. He opens his eyes and looks and it takes him a minute to realize where his hand is.
Another thing that I just thought about.. when Jack brings up sinner marching off to hell and Ennis responds with saying he hasn't yet had the opportunity, it's funny he used to word "opportunity" instead of just simply saying "You may be a sinner, but I'm not." What possessed Ennis to say he hasn't had the opportunity? Jack seems delighted by his use of the word opportunity, as well I think that was another way he knew to make a move on Ennis, or in this case, give him the "opportunity."
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Yes, I do. Ennis hesitates a minute, even. He opens his eyes and looks and it takes him a minute to realize where his hand is.
Another thing that I just thought about.. when Jack brings up sinner marching off to hell and Ennis responds with saying he hasn't yet had the opportunity, it's funny he used to word "opportunity" instead of just simply saying "You may be a sinner, but I'm not." What possessed Ennis to say he hasn't had the opportunity? Jack seems delighted by his use of the word opportunity, as well I think that was another way he knew to make a move on Ennis, or in this case, give him the "opportunity."
You're absolutely right. In a way i find this quite flirtatious on Ennis' part. Maybe this is on a subconcious level that he himself is not aware of, but the way he says it and the small smile he accompanies it with, and of course the use of the word opportunity makes me think this. Perhaps i am seeing what i want to see - but maybe not...
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You're absolutely right. In a way i find this quite flirtatious on Ennis' part. Maybe this is on a subconcious level that he himself is not aware of, but the way he says it and the small smile he accompanies it with, and of course the use of the word opportunity makes me think this. Perhaps i am seeing what i want to see - but maybe not...
No, I agree 100%. His choice of words coupled with the look he gives Jack signal flirting to a pretty high degree. Whether or not he was aware at how much that came across as flirting is anyone's guess, but Jack picked up on it really fast and gladly handed the whiskey bottle over to Ennis. Even after Jack hands the bottle over and looks away, Ennis looks back up at him and gives another smile.
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Maybe we do read alot of double meanings into the dialog but this movie leaves so much left uninterpreted or open to the the veiwers' imagination. Jack says"fellas , like you and me" ( admitting he was'nt pure in a religious sense)Ennis says "speak for yourself" "Ive yet to have the opportunity" In religious (Jack's mom's) context ,sinner meaning taken in "worldly" temptation and pleasures. Was Ennis saying that Jack was more experienced ,as in sexually more experienced? I think so. I doubt that Alma gave him any. Then he expresses his virginity with the "opportunity" comment. The look,( as has been touched on in different threads) that accompanied this comment indeed gave us a flirtateous Ennis with emphazes on the chance that Jack might pick up on it ..without really saying pointedly" Jack , I want the opportunity with you" He got his point across ....Jack took it as intended. It's the Ennis manner.
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Fellas like you and me" is kind of odd - is Jack implying that Ennis is like him in the sense of being sexually experienced, or is he almost flattering Ennis by implying that they are equally "men of the world" sort of, though he must know Ennis isn't?
As for "ain't yet had the opportunity" that's surely saying that he wouldn't be averse to taking it if it arose - the "yet" implies he's still waiting for it to come along and in effect gives Jack the go-ahead.
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Fellas like you and me" is kind of odd - is Jack implying that Ennis is like him in the sense of being sexually experienced, or is he almost flattering Ennis by implying that they are equally "men of the world" sort of, though he must know Ennis isn't?
As for "ain't yet had the opportunity" that's surely saying that he wouldn't be averse to taking it if it arose - the "yet" implies he's still waiting for it to come along and in effect gives Jack the go-ahead.
That struck me as odd. Jack really never came out and said anything about sexual experience but it seems Ennis took it for that and I wonder why. Or was he just taking the chance to let this be known? :s)
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Well it shows where Ennis's head was during this whole conversation I think. It's as if he " accidently" let Jack in on some secret thoughts he was having all along. It would explain the previous scenes too leading up to this, When they first came into the clearing, Jack is gathering wood for the fire and furniture etc. and Ennis walks over to him and touches his shoulder. ( Use the *zoom* button on your TV to enhance this). then there's the "tent don't look right" episode where Ennis making sure the tent is structured right for Jack, even though he would'nt be sleeping in it himself that night as he will be attending the sheep (supposingly) but took great care to do this. Later he asks about Pentecost, after Jack sings his Water Walkin Jesus phrase.With this he was "feeling Jack out"( "what exactly is the Pentecost?) to see if Jack was open to what he wanted. If this religion would prevent Jack from participating,since his mother was strict about it maybe in Ennis's mind Jack was too.The comment "fellas like you and me" told him or confirmed what he wanted to know. This all underlying resoning on my part, but In light of this , the "opportunity "presented itself.The comment was direct and "in your face". Jack's little hmmm comment says he "got it". The rest is history. My take.
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Yes, I always take Jack's little smile and "hmm" to mean "Oh, really, Well, in that case....."
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Yes!
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Well it shows where Ennis's head was during this whole conversation I think. It's as if he " accidentally" let Jack in on some secret thoughts he was having all along. It would explain the previous scenes too leading up to this, When they first came into the clearing, Jack is gathering wood for the fire and furniture etc. and Ennis walks over to him and touches his shoulder. ( Use the *zoom* button on your TV to enhance this). then there's the "tent don't look right" episode where Ennis making sure the tent is structured right for Jack, even though he wouldn't be sleeping in it himself that night as he will be attending the sheep (supposingly) but took great care to do this. Later he asks about Pentecost, after Jack sings his Water Walkin Jesus phrase.With this he was "feeling Jack out"( "what exactly is the Pentecost?) to see if Jack was open to what he wanted. If this religion would prevent Jack from participating,since his mother was strict about it maybe in Ennis's mind Jack was too.The comment "fellas like you and me" told him or confirmed what he wanted to know. This all underlying reasoning on my part, but In light of this , the "opportunity "presented itself.The comment was direct and "in your face". Jack's little hmmm comment says he "got it". The rest is history. My take.
aintfoolin: thanks for your interpretation - I agree with you. I never realized Ennis had put his hand on Jack's shoulder - I thought he put it on the log, but also thought it was funny that he did it for just a minute - Guess I'll just have to go watch it one more time, for research purposes, you understand.
For only having one year of high school, Ennis was pretty smart/intuitive. I didn't really pick up on all these things, but took them for face value until I'd seen the movie a few times. In the Pentecost scene, I loved the, "Hmmm", and Jack's smile.
Damn! After all that, why didn't Jack give him a ride when they left Brokeback? >:(
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It has tripled the tension and downright sensuality of this scene for me. Isn't that the beautiful thing about these discussion forums? Chances are i might have never noticed this - i am always concentrating so hard on Ennis' hands clamped to the sides of Jack's head. There is an almost caress there as they search each others eyes that stops my breath in my throat.
First time i saw it i saw quite a brutal sex scene, all these intimate details slipped by. Now i see the beginning of love.
Bella Muerte -- me, too, I'm always focused first on the staring down for a moment, the grabbing back and forth, and then on those hands in each other's hair. (There is one moment of Ennis's hand in Jack's hair that signals to me Ennis's surrender to wanting something to happen -- an almost-caress, as you said.) But I really didn't realize how overtly things were already progressing right there. I just wrote about this in the "Jack says f**k me" thread" -- I thought it was merely Jack's taking off his coat and then unbuckling and unzipping that started the whole thing moving forward -- and then Ennis made the instant decision to take what he wanted and turned Jack around -- but there was even more going on than I'd realized.
I too applaud Heath and Jake for working on portraying this realistically. Probably better that they didn't have actual RL experience with this particular act, or the whole falling in love with a man thing, so it was a kind of acting that kind of wasn't pretending. Sorry if that doesn't exaclty make sense.
kathy
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Fellas like you and me" is kind of odd - is Jack implying that Ennis is like him in the sense of being sexually experienced, or is he almost flattering Ennis by implying that they are equally "men of the world" sort of, though he must know Ennis isn't?
As for "ain't yet had the opportunity" that's surely saying that he wouldn't be averse to taking it if it arose - the "yet" implies he's still waiting for it to come along and in effect gives Jack the go-ahead.
God I love this scene, all these scenes, this thread.
You're right, WW, it is odd that Jack says "fellas like you and me." Maybe he'd like to think Ennis is like him, i.e., homosexually inclined, at least in this instance, on the mountain. But to actually say it -- what would he think Ennis would t hink is their commonality? Maybe because they're drinking? Drinking was/is pretty much a no-no in their parents' religions. But I don't think it was that. It was just Jack's way of beginning that little round of flirtation? (Those words not in the SS, but in the script, so we'd have to ask Larry and Diana.)
kathy
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Well it shows where Ennis's head was during this whole conversation I think. It's as if he " accidently" let Jack in on some secret thoughts he was having all along. It would explain the previous scenes too leading up to this, When they first came into the clearing, Jack is gathering wood for the fire and furniture etc. and Ennis walks over to him and touches his shoulder. ( Use the *zoom* button on your TV to enhance this). then there's the "tent don't look right" episode where Ennis making sure the tent is structured right for Jack, even though he would'nt be sleeping in it himself that night as he will be attending the sheep (supposingly) but took great care to do this. Later he asks about Pentecost, after Jack sings his Water Walkin Jesus phrase.With this he was "feeling Jack out"( "what exactly is the Pentecost?) to see if Jack was open to what he wanted. If this religion would prevent Jack from participating,since his mother was strict about it maybe in Ennis's mind Jack was too.The comment "fellas like you and me" told him or confirmed what he wanted to know. This all underlying resoning on my part, but In light of this , the "opportunity "presented itself.The comment was direct and "in your face". Jack's little hmmm comment says he "got it". The rest is history. My take.
Aintfoolin' -- making it how you want it or not...I like the direction you're going. I like how you point out how much Ennis was participating in the beginnings of this flirtation (in the SS, indicated by his happiness and wanting to paw the white out of the moon, whatever that means). And in the WWJ scene, not just responding to Jack, but instigating for himself, at least in hints...and really that's all they could afford at this point, was hints. Until later.
I just LOVE Jack's "Mmmm." And as you say, it tells Ennis that he got it. ;)
kathy
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Hi,
Ok Ok, I understand what you guys are saying, but what in the heck did Ennis mean when he said, "Unlike you, I haven't had the opportunity," Some one HELP.
Manhattangirl
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Hello Manhattangirl,
Below is the topic which may interest you.
Maybe you are sinner..... (http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1821.0)
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Ethan
Thanks, that line threw me, I didn't want read too much into it, this story is deeper in so many different ways. thanks again.
Manhattangirl
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Manhattan Girl...that's what we do here, is read a whole lot into everything! You go read as much as you want into it. And this is a fascinating scene, and that's a great thread.
You might also enjoy "Double Meanings" thread -- what is said and the different interpretations we can make.
kathy
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Hi,
Ok Ok, I understand what you guys are saying, but what in the heck did Ennis mean when he said, "Unlike you, I haven't had the opportunity," Some one HELP.
Manhattangirl
:h) Ok, I'll do my best manhattan! As with damned near everything else, this has layers of meaning, so let me at least attempt to explain the symbolism used...and I do mean attempt because I don't get it all yet lolol. Now, IMO Ennis was telling Jack he knew what Jack wanted; that he, Ennis had never done anything whatsoever but wanted to become a sinner...with Jack. Slow down that scene slightly on your dvd and really look at the marvelous way Ang Lee uses the boys' cowboy hats to create emphasis and thrust, to set the scene and mood, to give signals to the viewer and signals for his CHARACTERS, one to the other, as well.
In key parts of the dialogue, their eyes are hidden>>> by COWBOY HATS.
What we have are two western cowboy hats speaking, in the sense that you don't see their eyes. Those eyes are hidden, ie, closeted. When AL lifts that veil [ the cowboy hats ], he does it simply and in a natural yet hesitant way: he has Jack and Ennis raise their heads a slight bit.
When they do that we see their eyes instead of a facade, ie, we see the REAL Jack and the REAL Ennis.
We see what's under the cowboy hats. The boys become two people, two teenagers about to open the closet door. You can virtually hear the damned things' hinges squeak as it opens.
So Jack and Ennis, looking downwards, hiding their eyes <" the eyes are the mirror of the soul"> under their cowboy hats symbolises that they are in the closet. Raising their heads so we see their eyes symbolises 'the closet door' being opened.
From western stereotypes, the boys personalities very suddenly SHINE in a very effective way, as AL shows us what is behind the closet door. He says ten thousand words with a simple raising of their hats.
Now, coming to "You may be a sinner...":
This is pretty subjective. IMO Ennis is just drunk enough to signal Jack and tell him he knows Jack is one of 'those guys', that he knows Jack is 'a sinner'. Look at that knowing and smirky, up and down 'Boy, I KNOW your shit!' look he gives Jack Twist. Jack for his part offers Ennis the bottle of whiskey which symbolises the apple in the Garden of Eden>>>>>>>>>and ennis accepts it. Jack has a look on his ace which screams HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!! >:D YESYESYES THANK YOU SWEET JESUS AND THE PENTECOST,I AM GOIN A GET ME SOME ENNIS-TAIL, I AM in, I AM in, &**) I AM IM!!!!!"
Both have been drinking at the same rate $) until that point. Ennis wants Jack, so he gets drunk, Jack wants ennis--so he slows waaay down. By the time they are ready for bed Ennis is so drunk he can't walk, while Jack for his part is no more then a bit woozy.......all of which brings us to another thread and the *o) FNIT.
Hope this helps a bit! ::)
Jack
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I want to thnk everyone again for shring some very interesting thoughts and comments.
I do like the idea that Ennis's avowal of virginity was both a statement and invitation. I do think it was an invitation to Jack, whether intentional or subliminal -- it does not really matter. I think at this point, both were ready to push the relationship to another level, but that trying to accomplish this could not have been done openly. Hence, this oblique invitation.
And I do think Jack got it...
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I want to thnk everyone again for shring some very interesting thoughts and comments.
I do like the idea that Ennis's avowal of virginity was both a statement and invitation. I do think it was an invitation to Jack, whether intentional or subliminal -- it does not really matter. I think at this point, both were ready to push the relationship to another level, but that trying to accomplish this could not have been done openly. Hence, this oblique invitation.
And I do think Jack got it...
The more you view that scene the more it seems like an invitation, inadvertent or not. There are many times when we are attracted to a person and we say/do things we'd never imagine saying or doing in a million years and even after you've done it you think to yourself "Why did I just do that?" I am thinking this is what happened with Ennis. The attraction plus the alcohol made it that much easier to let an admission/invitation slip out like that and bless Jack for picking right up on it and going for it.
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The more you view that scene the more it seems like an invitation, inadvertent or not. There are many times when we are attracted to a person and we say/do things we'd never imagine saying or doing in a million years and even after you've done it you think to yourself "Why did I just do that?" I am thinking this is what happened with Ennis. The attraction plus the alcohol made it that much easier to let an admission/invitation slip out like that and bless Jack for picking right up on it and going for it.
Precisely. Attraction makes us do things. We say things we normally don't say and we don't say things we normally say. The response to Ennis's avowal is quite interesting: it sounded like Jack relished the idea that Ennis was untried and untested, no?
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I agree totally Tpe. Those hints in the opening scenes did not go unnoticed. What was Jack thinking?, tempting a poor naive, little country boy like Ennis. SMILES. There ought to be a law against leaning on trucks lookin that good.
So true!
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Precisely. Attraction makes us do things. We say things we normally don't say and we don't say things we normally say. The response to Ennis's avowal is quite interesting: it sounded like Jack relished the idea that Ennis was untried and untested, no?
Jack was audibly pleased with Ennis's admission. Not only because of the way Ennis presented it to him, but it was yet another aspect of their relationship that had evolved. For Ennis to confide in Jack and tell him something that private is a huge step for Ennis and I think that also had a lot to do with Jack's confidence that night in the tent.
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Jack was audibly pleased with Ennis's admission. Not only because of the way Ennis presented it to him, but it was yet another aspect of their relationship that had evolved. For Ennis to confide in Jack and tell him something that private is a huge step for Ennis and I think that also had a lot to do with Jack's confidence that night in the tent.
Yes, he DID sound quite pleased. I think at that point, he seemed confident enough to make his move. And yes, it must have been a surprising admission. I am sure Jack must have been inwardly taken aback, but it surely must have whetted his appetite...
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Hello tpe, Yes he was very deliberate in his actions here. Did you also notice that Jack appeared to take Ennis's hand and place it back on his erection as he held Ennis with that gaze? This time Ennis Ennis did'nt jump or try to remove it. it. This happens right before Jack unbuttons and removes his coat. Its very subtle but bold too. This is the point I think that Jack knew he had him. Maybe some one has a meaningful quote about the "art " of seduction. he definitly could'nt help himself.
Ai-yi-yi...I never noticed that! I'm going to have to watch that scene again when I get home. :d)
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Ai-yi-yi...I never noticed that! I'm going to have to watch that scene again when I get home. :d)
Smoking hot that one tiny aspect is. You'll love it O0
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^^I want to run home right now! :clap:
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Oh I just love, love, love this scene, the "I ain't had the opportunity" scene. It is just so incredibly adorable, Ennis -- innocent, held-in Ennis -- saying what he said, so overtly, and the look on his face makes his meaning clear. I love Jack's "Mmmm." They were both so primed at that point to make (Jack) or let (Ennis) something happen, but then Ennis let the drink get the better of him, as it can tend to do. But of course it all worked out in the end. If Ennis hadn't been so wasted, their first time might have been something more like SNIT. But I love how their first time was depicted instead, the FNIT scenario -- so raw and urgent. Get that big leap out of the way first, then there's plenty of time for a more lucid exploration...
kathy
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Somehow I suspect that Ennis probably knew something was gonna happen between he and Jack . He was drunk, but why sleep outside as Jack tries to coax him into the tent? It had to at least cross his mind that Jack may try something. When Jack called him , he could've said "no, I'm fine or "I'll be alright out here" or something but he got up and entered the tent at Jack's command. Thus, the opportunity. Was he just putting off the inevitable out of fear? Jack guessed that the pentecost was "when the world ends and fellas like me and you march off to hell" at which Ennis says his comment about "opportunity". Jack could have meant they could be commonly hellraisers or homosexuals, I don't really know, but in any case he was'nt gonna let the world end without Ennis never having had the opportunity to "ride the good horse" at least one time... with no reins . They both got their opportunities ....together.
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Oh I just love, love, love this scene, the "I ain't had the opportunity" scene. It is just so incredibly adorable, Ennis -- innocent, held-in Ennis -- saying what he said, so overtly, and the look on his face makes his meaning clear. I love Jack's "Mmmm." They were both so primed at that point to make (Jack) or let (Ennis) something happen, but then Ennis let the drink get the better of him, as it can tend to do. But of course it all worked out in the end. If Ennis hadn't been so wasted, their first time might have been something more like SNIT. But I love how their first time was depicted instead, the FNIT scenario -- so raw and urgent. Get that big leap out of the way first, then there's plenty of time for a more lucid exploration...
kathy
I think the urgency in the FNIT is that both of them were unsure as to how the other would react (particularly in the case of Ennis, of course). There was a resoluteness in their actions that belied the uncertainty. The difference with the SNIT is that by that time, they had come to an understanding of what they wanted and how they felt. What a difference an ambivalent conversation up in the mountains can make, no?
How did Jack know when to make his move. I wonder if he really did know precisely when... I think it was just the need pushing itself to the surface when there was a good opportunity. But certainly, Jack must have known that it would happen sooner or later after Ennis confided to him his inexperience.
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The part I love about FNIT was Jack's expert strategy and control. So well planned was Jack's move on Ennis that Ennis was putty in his hands. Big strong, practical hardworking Ennis who had a good work ethic and could cook and shoot, follow the rules with no complaint, and everything else that Jack couldn't, was putty in Jack's hands in their first night, which Jack also planned.
It was because of Jack their jobs unraveled, specifically, Jack's fixation on Ennis. He is so masterful in his strategy and pursuit I didn't give a hoot about ethics or sheep. So he worked me too. He was all I could think about.
First he had to get Ennis into the tent. Ennis, shivering audibly, was yelled at by Jack to get in the tent. It worked. If he had been too gentle, Ennis would not have budged. but a command, he followed. they slept.
Jack pulls Ennis's hand over him, Ennis crashes away in fighting mode, even though still drunk and tired and Jack immediately assumes a fight position, sits bolt upright, grabs Ennis's jacket in his fist and holds him there... quietly... steady...
1) to control Ennis and his explosive and dangerous fight impulses
2) but also to make it look like Jack himself was as innocent as the driven snow, like Ennis was doing something unnacceptable to him!! (Has this been pointed out?) So, it would look like Jack was holding Ennis off.
If this is true it is masterful strategy on Jack's part. This leaves Ennis confused, muddled in his already inebriated state.
In seconds that Jack was probably counting, 100, 200, timing was everything, Jack rips his own jacket off... in a move that startled and confused Ennis... (it startled me) that was the whole idea.
if he moved too soon he'd get decked.. if he waited too long, Ennis would be fully awake and the moment would be lost... Jack whispered barely audible sounds... this switched Ennis's focus on Jack's words, f**k me (right? to soothe and seduce Ennis).... Jack's next moves were also urgent and the urgency caught like wildfire on Ennis.
He knew the moment he had him. Powerful stuff. The bull unleashed.
I have never seen anything like this in my life. If only he could have used strategy like this to convince Ennis it could work for them forever. But he sold out. Jack became lost in his love for Ennis. Urgent, needy, he let Ennis play him like a fiddle... on a short leash. The long term picture was controlled by Ennis. Jack did not have the confidence to test Ennis's love.
Painful to see Jack's shining star, his brilliant mind, be run by Ennis, the bull in the china closet.
Masterful timing, anyway, Jack, you sexy thing.
The rest is well detailed by you all right here, so beautifully.
I like how Jack managed to bring this about with the unmanageable, explosive, straight and strong Ennis who might have torn him apart and wedged them apart forever.
Jack took a horrible risk and succeeded in something not every man could pull off. He had no strategy for the long term, but he knew how to break the bull down for the first sex.
He can't cook, shoot, sing or rodeo, but wow did he get a bead on Ennis, timing his moves, masterminding his strategy and bringing him down. Very, very powerful stuff. What brilliant manipulation. It would not be easy or even possible for any man to get to Ennis. One would have to be as furtive and hungry a hunter as a cat with single-minded purpose.
This is the scene I can watch over and over and also SNIT.
And, the bull did not get his breakfast in the morning because the mastermind was sleeping. ha.
Some camp tender. Ennis was so bewildered. The following night Ennis apologizes to Jack. Jack the Innocent. I didn't hear his apology.
love this movie....
tamlynn
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Whoa, Tamlynn -- love your post! Made me hot just reading it. There was such powerful stuff going on there, and your perspective on Jack's moves is fascinating. And poetic. Both men are such facted personalities, and it is so beautiful how they did manage to come together and then discover it was love that they felt... But first, the sex. And all the dynamics which you mentioned.
I appreciate your going through these threads and bringing them up again. I just love to talk about it all still.
kathy
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Well I choose personally to think of Ennis being *led* rather than manipulated, down a path that he was intrigued by, questioning but only in his mind at that point. Think at some point Ennis felt very aware that he was attracted to Jack, another man. Could'nt shake it off, it felt strangely right somehow to him, I felt . He was thinking along those lines at least, struggling with conflicts deep inside him. He needed to please Jack his freind and "teacher" . Ennis for once in his life felt close to someone somebody who did'nt judge him or reject his quiet, bashful manner. Did'nt brand him backwards or boring. In fact just the opposite . Jack showed Ennis acceptance of himself as he was allowing Ennis to open up more . Jack, I beleive felt those *vibes* from Ennis, that Ennis may be in need of a lesson in what those feelings mean as he had them himself for sure, + obviously more knowledge /experience or more awareness of what the act entails. In FNIT it was Jack who initiated the whole thing I feel it was only the unexpected timing of the whole thing that threw Ennis off. His instincts were right giving Ennis (the virgin) an opportunity ( be careful what ya ask for Ennis!) to act on the feelings he knew or suspected Ennis had. Maybe they could'nt really define what was happening but they went with what they felt to do. MO
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I agree that it is not really a case of manipulation, but I do think both of them took advantage of circumstances whenever circumstances allowed for such "openings".
I think this is how it is in real life, no? Success in love depends many times on one's willingness to sieze the moment and follow the trail of possibilities.
I think this was at the core of Jack's presentiments about Ennis.
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Seizing the moment involves the capacity to take risks. Well, Jack had that - it got him Ennis but also got him killed.
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Seizing the moment involves the capacity to take risks. Well, Jack had that - it got him Ennis but also got him killed.
Yes, in this regard, Ennis was much more conservative than Jack. The ability of Jack to take risks probably killed him in the end, but the possibility of this happending did not seem to stop him from trying to fulfill his dreams.
A dreamer yes, but Jack was also a risk-taker. A dreamer who does not take risks might as well be awake.