Personally, I always thought Jack stood a better chance of convincing Ennis to give things a shot if he just basically grabbed hold of him kissed the hell out of him, and said, "Look asshole, I love you... now whatcha gonna do about it?" Hell being aggressive worked once and got pretty good results (FNIT) why not try it again? ;)
Or even better, show up on one of their fishing trips with the shirts in tow... hang em up in the tent and see what Ennis' reaction is to this obvious show of Jack's love. Given his reaction to finding them later, perhaps it might have at least provoked a conversation that led to the 'L' word being used and maybe even a plan to try for that 'sweet life'? My thought always was that Ennis and Jack both knew how the other felt, but actually hearing it said aloud would have packed enough of a punch to wake Ennis up and make him realize what he was missing out on.
Sorry bit OT...
I have often wondered myself if Ennis might not have caved and decided to give Jack's dreams a shot. Perhaps if Jack had lived and tried again after both Ennis' girls were 18 and his child support obligation was no longer there... that really did seem to be the biggest thing holding him back besides the Earl thing.
"If u can't fix it u gotta stand it".
Yep, and if you can't stand it, you gotta fix it. Ennis said at the lakeside "I can't stand this any more Jack".....so maybe he would try to fix it?
erm...who is randall ...can someone show me a pic to remind me...
I don't think Jack expected anything about Randall, when Randall talk him of the little cabin he does not seem happy or excited, he is sad, melancolic! Since the misunderstanding after the divorce Jack was wounded and never could recover, we never see him happy after, never a smile. Ennis and Jack were in love, deeply in love, but more than that they were life for each other, and Ennis could not bear that. Before their meeting, on Brokeback, they were both nearly dead, they came back to life in fiding that love... After that they were not able to live with or without the other...
Maybe Ennis was realy in love with Cassie, she made him dance! After the last fight, along the lake, Ennis is broken, he is lost for everybody but melancoly. And Jack! what I think it is that the thing he cant bear it is not being able to help his friend, to make him happy. It is not only a question to declare love, they are both unable, they are crippled! Jack was happy as long he thought he made Ennis happy, just look his smile when they they meet at mud lake, just before the ballad in the rain forest! Jack is a worn out man, his last try with Ennis is hopeless. I think he chose to die, he tought he could do in dying what he could not in living. That is how I understand the memory of the happy time in Brokeback, Jack is sure of his love and he is sure of Ennis: he prefer let him go, be free, "see you in the morning!..." Jack was not murdered, he was not stupid, he gave his life and that is what Ennis understand in the closet. When Ennis wisper "I love you" it is not only him, he just came to understand what Jack did for him. Randall is a nothing, Jack talked of him only to get the suspicion out of Ennis... I think the trailer is completly out of the way, love is NOT of force of nature, love between Jack and Ennis was built day after day, love is a bond and there is no greater love than give your life fore someone you love :\'( :\'(
Mélanos I have to disagree with you with Cassie Ennis didn't loved her at all you can't love two persons at the same time and He wasn't the type either Ennis was actually trying to have the life people wanted him to have not his real life remember Cassie came years after his dinner with Alma where he realized Alma knew about Jack and him.I completly agree with you... most of the time! I just remember what Bumbaluna said in the weekly letter, Cassie was, maybe, something like Jack in a woman, I think he is not playing with her, but he does not know where he goes... there is no opposition in his mind between Jack and Cassie, all the contrary and he is proud to talk about her with Jack. Ennis does not want to choose and underestimate the deepness of the bond between him and Jack.
About Jack choosing to Die well to be honest I don't think that Jack fitted that profile either, I do agree that he let him go as it was on his memory but remember that book states "Nothing fixed, nothing ended" so we know that Jack was able to give his life for ennis but i don't think that he was going to make him kill not in that way at least that would make Ennis suffered and i don't think he wanted that.
And Jack, I understand what you say and that is the most difficult point of the film. First of all Jack of the film is not Jack of the SS, and Ennis no more, Jack is even not Jack of the screenplay! Ang Lee and Jake made made a much more complex character and the endings are differents: in the SS the end is pure despair, Ennis is taken between grief and madness (that is quite a frequent end in "Close Range"), in the film there is some hope. I believe we are not compelled to have a realistic reading: nothing is shown directly of the death of Jack... in the legends death represent the passage from childhood to adulthood. Jack did not want his friend to suffer, but he ha to... like a doctor do, sometimes, to heal, to let him be a man? :s)
Thanks Carlos for saying that I made an interesting point! I do believe Ennis would've came around eventually. I mean they were both approaching middle-age. That's usually when everyone takes a good, hard look at their life. I think Ennis used Cassie as a cover-up and Jack used Randall to feel that sexual and lonely void (even if it didn't help Jack overcome him loneliness and longing for Ennis). There is no doubt Jack would've met up with Ennis either to continue the relationship as it is or give Ennis an ultimatum. These 2 people were in love from 1963 to 1983 (the screenplay is so messed up when it comes to the dates!), I don't think Jack would've replied to Ennis' postcard by "I found someone who wants a life with me". Jack wouldn't do that and if he did Ennis would drive to wherever Jack was and fight for him!Yes, browneyes, I agree with you. and I enjoyed you 'what ifs..' from the other posts. It was Ennis who was changing for Jack. And I think he would have come around to be with Jack. But as Jack prophetized, 'never enough time, never enough.' I think that last fight... especially Jack's "I did once...' line really got to Ennis. I can see where Ennis would somehow feel guilty and somewhat responsible, though unjustified, for Jack's death. Sorry for being OT.
Well, I think the screenplay is wrong with a couple of the dates. I believe it was '83 the last time Ennis and Jack met up. I think it makes more sense. When Jack asks Ennis "what the hell ever happened to August?" I think its a safe bet that it was May of '83. And Jack died sometime during the spring or summer. Ennis probably knew about the death around October, when he got the postcard back. The whole thing with Ennis and Cassie, Jack and Randall really confuses me. Sometimes I get so upset that Jack was cheating on Ennis with another man for 5 years (I believe)! But Ennis was with Cassie for 5 years too and since Ennis was still in denial, he could've fallen in love with Cassie. Jack could've fallen for Randall. But they couldn't because they still wanted each other.
A bit OOT here. but for those interested in a comparison between screenplay and short story timelines, you can refer to a table posted in the old thread on the Timeline of the Last Scenes.
It is an interesting tabulation...
Thank you for that. But when Jack said "needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get", it does give me doubts. But then he said "I can't make on a couple of high-altitude f**ks once or twice a year!". That tells me he tried to stay faithful but when the urges got to bad he went to see Randall. That tells me he rarely saw Randall. So even thought he knew Randall for 5 years, he rarely had sex with him. Remember, Randall had his own life too. So they were more than likely just f**k buddies. When Jack told his father about "another fella", I think he was speaking out of anger and frustration.
"..Sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it.. :\'( :\'(
Thank you for that. But when Jack said "needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get", it does give me doubts. But then he said "I can't make on a couple of high-altitude f**ks once or twice a year!". That tells me he tried to stay faithful but when the urges got to bad he went to see Randall. That tells me he rarely saw Randall. So even thought he knew Randall for 5 years, he rarely had sex with him. Remember, Randall had his own life too. So they were more than likely just f**k buddies. When Jack told his father about "another fella", I think he was speaking out of anger and frustration.
Yes, I did also feel that Jack tried to be faithful to Ennis, in spite of meanigless lapses (such as the one in Mexico). I do think that he porbably had a fling with Randall before the last meeting, but yes, I do think if this did ever occured, it was not really a serious thing. In fact, I thought his veiled reference to it in the last meeting was sort of a cry for help. That was why I think he started his beautiful confession of love with these words: "Truth is..."
Good point. Do u guys know that supposedly that when Jack said "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it", Ennis was supposedly going to say "I know the feeling". I think that should have been in the film.
That's it in a nutshell. Whatever lies he may have told Ennis both in the past and at that time, the truth was that he missed Ennis and didn't ever want to be apart from him. It's echoed in his speech the next day too - he may have wished he knew how to quit Ennis but the truth was, he didn't.
AND WE HAVEN'T A CLUE WHAT ENNIS WOULD HAVE SAID AT THAT POINT. And I like it that way - ambiguity again.
Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
Are sweeter.
Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
Are sweeter.
Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
Are sweeter.
Thanks welshwitch, that's beautifull and I think that is exactly what Jack is hearing in his last moment of quiet memory, the unheard melody of Ennis' love for him. Ennis, certainly, was trying to come back in his last postcard but nothing could have changed. The death of Jack was the only clash strong enought to move out of his fears, of his customs... Look how he is old and worn out with Jack, along the lake, and look how he is strong and beautiful when he come to Lightning Flat, with the spirit to face the dreadfull John and to face the disclosure of his sexuality. Ennis did came back... maybe the end could have been different, it would not have been so beautifull
"Les chants les plus tristes sont souvent les plus beaux
J'en connais d'immortels qui sont de purs sanglots" (Alfred de Vigny)
(The sadest songs are often the most beautiful
I know some immortals ones that are pure sob)
That is for TPE and sorry to be OT!
I have a few rather humdrum things to say on this topic, referring to things mentioned upthread.
1. I cannot imagine that the screenplay dates are correct: the last meeting was May; the references are to August and November of the same year. They would have said "next year" otherwise. As ww points out, it would not be the only timeline difficulty in the screenplay. Anyway, it just seems ridiculous to me that they would have said goodbye in May and Ennis hear nothing at all, say nothing at all until autumn of the following year. No, no, no.
2. I certainly think Cassie and Ennis had sex. I don't think Ennis lies to Jack (though Jack lies to Ennis). And Cassie is not a "nice girl" type who would stick around a reltionship a long time without sex... She just oozes sexuality, has Ennis give her a footrub right there in the bar...
3. Jack and Randall had known each other for approx five years. However, Jack may have waited some time before he began a sexual relationship with Randall. And maybe they just got together once or twice a year. And I don't think their relationship was emotionally that deep.
At the risk of sounding sexist, I think Ennis' (sort of) long-term affair with Cassie and Jack's (maybe sort of) long-term affair with Ranall show one of the differences between men and women. Women tend to make emotional commitments when they have sex; men, not so much.
~) for the generalization.
I have a few rather humdrum things to say on this topic, referring to things mentioned upthread.
I don't think Ennis lies to Jack (though Jack lies to Ennis).
I have a few rather humdrum things to say on this topic, referring to things mentioned upthread.
I don't think Ennis lies to Jack (though Jack lies to Ennis).
I maybe a little provocative but I think that Jack NEVER lies to Ennis: he only says a part of the truth and let the other part unsaid. His questionable answers are always built in three movement. See, for instance, in the motel, after the questionof Ennis about the punch, Jack does not answer immediatly:With Randall, it is exactly the same:
- Swear to God I didn't know we was going to get into this again: that is the opposite of the truth, that is provocative!
- Hell, Yes I did, Red lined it all the way... that is the truth.
- Wat is unsaid is that Jack is afraid of Ennis after "that punch" and he will take care of what he says, he will say only what he think Ennis can hear
- I kinda got a thing goin' with a ranch foreman's wife: that is the opposite of the truth but it what Ennis want to hear
- sometimes I miss you so much... that is the truth
- what is unsaid is probably not Randall which is of no importance, it is that Jack is afraid to be shot by Lureen: Jack tell the important thing within a joke and Ennis does not see it!
Sorry, Melanos (and sorry I can't do the accent in your name), but Jack lies quite a bit.
He's still a vibrant, amazing person with lots of great qualities, but he lies. Besides the examples you list above, he also says to Ennis: "I ain't (queer) either." [Ennis didn't know what he was saying; Jack did.]
If you want to go into the short story, in the motel Ennis says somehting like, "You ever think of doing it with another man?" and Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, said, "Hell no."
To paraphrase the sagacious *tpe*, we love them with their faults. And not just in spite of their faults, but because of their faults.
Thank you, Melanos. Don't take any notice of me, I'm old and cynical. I wasn't implying that all men were the same, but I think many of them can dissociate sex from love, while rather fewer women can.
Obfuscation means covering things up, deliberately hiding things you don;t want others to see. The sort of thing governemnts do with information that does them no good so they try to hide it in a lot of words/ statistics/ jargon.
Somewhere between recklessness and cowardice, then, it may be possible to find some equilibrium. If Ennis had retreated a little less determinedly and Jack had been a little less impetuous, by not leaving immediately after the divorce scene perhaps, then who knows?
I choose to believe that Ennis was coming around. Perhaps not too openly "out" but his actions where leading in that direction...very slowly!
By keeping his daughter at arms length, just in case... by the break up w/ Cassie, the make up letter about November..."for you, november". Most importantly, the make up letter was sent after he pretty much cut it off...saying he cant stand it no more. Ennis is not the type to go back on his word. Then to write Jack back saying, okay...I can stand it, lets meet up again...November... I dont want you goin back to Mexico Jack...I want to be the one to give you what you need. He was giving in, then...CRASH :\'(
This was the most peaceful scene to me...happily reunited under the heavens and stars. Except for the No way part.Gimmejack, without the no way part BBM would have been a boring romance and Ennis would have been another man! He was not an easy one but don't forget Jack loved to have some sport, his passion was rodeo! In the end he decided to open himself, some will say it is too late, I don't...