Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: aimi15 on Jul 10, 2006, 10:34 AM
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I can't remember if this has been discussed but it is a question that has been bugging me.
A while ago a member of this forum mentioned to me that the story of Ennis and Jack was more to do with loneliness than being a love story. That is, the theme of BBM isn't the love that two people find, it's the loneliness that dogs them throughout their lives.
It has opened up a whole can of worms for me, mainly about Ennis. Was he lonely before he met Jack, or was the loneliness only really a factor for him when they were apart? Did Alma satisfy his feelings of loneliness before he met Jack or was he destined to always be one of life's loners?
And when you think of Ennis what comes to mind first - the love he shared with Jack, or the man left on his own in the trailer?
Sorry for being so depressing but these are questions i can't find answers to at the moment and i would love to hear what other people think.
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I think Ennis was lonely prior to meeting Jack -- but that loneliness is rooted on different ground. Prior to the summer of 63, Ennis's loneliness was rooted on an a hard, stoic life and the inevitable hardships that followed the untimely death of his parents. It was a lonely childhood in the sense that responsibilities were thrust upon him that precluded a more normal, carefree childhood (this is true especially after the death of his parents).
After he met Jack, it became rooted to a loneliness born out of unfulfilled love.
You combine the two, and you get very close to the brooding character that is Ennis.
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Thank you tpe, that is precisely one of the things that i am trying to sort through in my mind. Was the loneliness an inherent part of Ennis' nature? He would always be lonely? I feel for him in that he had even more loneliness in his life through losing Jack, but maybe i should be slightly relieved that the loneliness was just a part of his character and nothing could have changed that, it would always have been there whether he had found Jack or not. Just throwing some ideas arounds. :)
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Thank you tpe, that is precisely one of the things that i am trying to sort through in my mind. Was the loneliness an inherent part of Ennis' nature? He would always be lonely? I feel for him in that he had even more loneliness in his life through losing Jack, but maybe i should be slightly relieved that the loneliness was just a part of his character and nothing could have changed that, it would always have been there whether he had found Jack or not. Just throwing some ideas arounds. :)
I think his love for Jack was a source of loneliness for Ennis, as much as it was a source of happiness. His love for Jack marginalized him. It confirmed his "difference" with the rest of society. But it was not Jack's fault. Jack was the catalyst that awakened Ennis to the promise of true love. The fact that this kind of love was not acceptable to a part of himself as well as to the society he moved in was the cause of so much of his loneliness in later life. But it was love nonetheless.
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Thank you tpe, that is precisely one of the things that i am trying to sort through in my mind. Was the loneliness an inherent part of Ennis' nature? He would always be lonely? I feel for him in that he had even more loneliness in his life through losing Jack, but maybe i should be slightly relieved that the loneliness was just a part of his character and nothing could have changed that, it would always have been there whether he had found Jack or not. Just throwing some ideas arounds. :)
I think his love for Jack was a source of loneliness for Ennis, as much as it was a source of happiness. His love for Jack marginalized him. It confirmed his "difference" with the rest of society. But it was not Jack's fault. Jack was the catalyst that awakened Ennis to the promise of true love. The fact that this kind of love was not acceptable to a part of himself as well as to the society he moved in was the cause of so much of his loneliness in later life. But it was love nonetheless.
aimi and tpe - you're breaking my heart here :\'(
I really do believe that the only time Ennis was truly happy was when he was with Jack, when he could relax and be the man that he was, with no fear of being "outed", of someone else knowing - and when he was with Junior (maybe even both girls) where he was free to display his love for her (them), because that's what fathers do. At those times, he wasn't lonely, but the rest of the time? Yeah, I reckon he was. He was clearly lonely as a child (as tpe said) and Alma didn't help that (through no fault of hers) because she wasn't who he wanted her to be - he was able to put on a mask to allow her to think things were ok, but deep down he was empty and alone, dreaming of the only person who could complete him.
With Jack gone, the only person who seemed to be able to help was Junior - and its his interaction with her at the end of the movie that gives me some hope that he wouldn't live out the rest of his life alone. He finally finds himself saying the word "love" to another person because he's finally understood what he and Jack shared was just that, and he finally seems to realise that if you love someone (whether that's in the way he loved Jack or in the way he loves his daughters) then you do whatever you can to make them happy, which he does by agreeing to go to Junior's wedding.
I'm convinced he would never even go looking for, let alone find, another Jack - I don't think he needed to, because Jack would remain alive in his heart and his dreams - but I do think that maybe, just maybe, his acceptance of his feelings for Jack would allow him to be more open to being loved by, and being part of, Junior's life.
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Ennis appears to be a natural loner - even in that "working on the roads" sequence he's not interested in the guy he's working with or what he's saying, and when Alma proposes some sort of social thing he always turns her down, except on July 4th and look how that turns out.
In some ways Ennis is enacting the cliche of the strong silent stoical loner outside of society and with no way in. There are plenty of parallels in Westerns.
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It makes me wonder if it was due to circumstance or down to his own character that made Ennis a loner. He gives the clues to having to depend so utterly on himself with the conversation about his brother and sister, in which he states 'no more room for me'. Makes me wonder if it was an intentional loneliness, a form of self preservation, no one able to leave him alone again as he was already alone. As he says 'you got nothing, you don't need nothing.'
Maybe that is why being with Jack those few times rocked him to the core, he didn't feel he had to be lonely when he was with Jack and it went against every defensive mechanism he had been practising for so long.
I feel so sad when i think of Ennis' loneliness, but thankfully the love they shared comes to mind far more powerfully. :) Thanks for your comments.
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Ennis was lonely from an early age I believe. Being raised by a father who did't allow him to show his feelings openly. Any emotions were suppressed and berated. thought of as bein sissy.Tenderness of course was discouraged or berated also. therefore Ennis withdrew, held every thing inside , unsure how to please and be pleased, how to love or be loved ( to recieve it). He also saw death at a young age. A mental picture that remained with him . In the bar scene, when Jack says "shit, thats's hard, to him it was the first time anyone seemed to akknowledge his pain. and I beleive it's just one thing that drew Ennis to Jack early on.
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Great post aintfoolin
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I'm convinced he would never even go looking for, let alone find, another Jack - I don't think he needed to, because Jack would remain alive in his heart and his dreams - but I do think that maybe, just maybe, his acceptance of his feelings for Jack would allow him to be more open to being loved by, and being part of, Junior's life.
I am in tears here.
Ennis is dead to the world; but Jack remains alive within him forever.
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I really do believe that the only time Ennis was truly happy was when he was with Jack, when he could relax and be the man that he was, with no fear of being "outed", of someone else knowing - and when he was with Junior (maybe even both girls) where he was free to display his love for her (them), because that's what fathers do. At those times, he wasn't lonely, but the rest of the time? Yeah, I reckon he was. He was clearly lonely as a child (as tpe said) and Alma didn't help that (through no fault of hers) because she wasn't who he wanted her to be - he was able to put on a mask to allow her to think things were ok, but deep down he was empty and alone, dreaming of the only person who could complete him.
With Jack gone, the only person who seemed to be able to help was Junior - and its his interaction with her at the end of the movie that gives me some hope that he wouldn't live out the rest of his life alone. He finally finds himself saying the word "love" to another person because he's finally understood what he and Jack shared was just that, and he finally seems to realise that if you love someone (whether that's in the way he loved Jack or in the way he loves his daughters) then you do whatever you can to make them happy, which he does by agreeing to go to Junior's wedding.
I'm convinced he would never even go looking for, let alone find, another Jack - I don't think he needed to, because Jack would remain alive in his heart and his dreams - but I do think that maybe, just maybe, his acceptance of his feelings for Jack would allow him to be more open to being loved by, and being part of, Junior's life.
Wow you totally mirrored my view on this. No need even to post anything except to say thanks....it's always so amazing when someone else can put words to what's in your heart.
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It makes me wonder if it was due to circumstance or down to his own character that made Ennis a loner. He gives the clues to having to depend so utterly on himself with the conversation about his brother and sister, in which he states 'no more room for me'. Makes me wonder if it was an intentional loneliness, a form of self preservation, no one able to leave him alone again as he was already alone. As he says 'you got nothing, you don't need nothing.'
Maybe that is why being with Jack those few times rocked him to the core, he didn't feel he had to be lonely when he was with Jack and it went against every defensive mechanism he had been practising for so long.
Your self-preservation theory makes a lot of sense, aimi,after losing his parents, then his sister, and his brother,he would've thought that it was easier not to get close to people, that way there's no chance of being hurt by them :( Of course, Jack comes along and makes all the loneliness disappear, but Ennis ends up losing him too after the summer,and that loneliness is probably even more painful, cause he now knows what it's like not to be lonely. No wonder he was so overcome when he saw Jack again after four years! <^(
The scene from the movie that immediately sprang to my mind reading this thread, is when Alma is trying to convince him to move to town, and she (somewhat manipulatively, some might say), reminds him of his childhood "you don't want it to be so lonely, do you?" Ennis immediately thinks of Jack, cause the only time he wasn't lonely was with Jack, and when he says "it ain't so lonely now", it's not Alma he's trying to convince, it's himself,and he fails miserably, it's obvious he's thinking about Jack when he's having sex with Alma :(
As for the question about what springs to mind when I think of Ennis, it's the scene where he's holding the shirts after finding them in Jack's closet :\'( I'm getting teary eyed just thinking about it, the way he tries to summon up Jack's essence from his shirt, knowing it's all he has left of him, and that he'll never again be able to escape the loneliness now Jack's gone :\'(
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The self-preservation theory is interesting, I have posted this idea on another site. Do you think, maybe subconsiously, Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship with Jack, by choosing the most inopportune time to discuss Not August, but November. It seems to me that Ennis chooses language in the last fight scene that he knows will push Jack's buttons, "boys like you", "You made me like this..". Just the night before Jack says, " I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" to which Ennis cannot even provide a response, physically or verbally. Maybe Ennis made a decision that night that he was going to do everything he can do drive Jack away, hence the "I can't take this anymore, Jack" comment. Maybe Ennis was trying to drive Jack away so then Ennis would not have to make the decision to end anything, but to make Jack walk away. Maybe Ennis, so used to being abandoned and alone, tries to drive Jack away as a response to the "I miss you so much" comment from Jack. In his brokenness, Ennis only loving response to Jack's expression of loneliness is to give Jack a reason to leave him -- thereby letting Jack move on and get over Ennis. And in doing so, Ennis continues to rely on instincts ingrained in him from childhood .."Oh well, everyone leaves me...I don't need them...I've dealt with this before so I know how to work through this."
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The self-preservation theory is interesting, I have posted this idea on another site. Do you think, maybe subconsiously, Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship with Jack, by choosing the most inopportune time to discuss Not August, but November. It seems to me that Ennis chooses language in the last fight scene that he knows will push Jack's buttons, "boys like you", "You made me like this..". Just the night before Jack says, " I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" to which Ennis cannot even provide a response, physically or verbally. Maybe Ennis made a decision that night that he was going to do everything he can do drive Jack away, hence the "I can't take this anymore, Jack" comment. Maybe Ennis was trying to drive Jack away so then Ennis would not have to make the decision to end anything, but to make Jack walk away. Maybe Ennis, so used to being abandoned and alone, tries to drive Jack away as a response to the "I miss you so much" comment from Jack. In his brokenness, Ennis only loving response to Jack's expression of loneliness is to give Jack a reason to leave him -- thereby letting Jack move on and get over Ennis. And in doing so, Ennis continues to rely on instincts ingrained in him from childhood .."Oh well, everyone leaves me...I don't need them...I've dealt with this before so I know how to work through this."
I really don't think Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship. I think he waited to tell Jack about not meeting in August because he was nervous; just look at the way he bites his nails and rubs the car handle when he tells Jack about it. I think he didn't want to spoil the whole week with Jack by telling him earlier. He knew it would upset Jack. Ennis then tries to lighten the mood by telling a joke (coffee pot line) and telling Jack what a good time they'll have in November (hunting, Don Wroe's cabin). If Ennis was trying to sabotage the relationship, I don't think he would have made comments like this. Ennis' "boys like you" comment seems to come only after Jack mentions their relationship in the past tense ("I did once."). I think Ennis gets a little scared by this, so his back goes up. I also think he's incredibly jealous of the thought of Jack being with other men in Mexico and gets all macho and pissy with Jack. Finally, I took Ennis "I can't stand this any more, Jack" as Ennis' declaration that he couldn't stand it, so he might have to fix it. Hence, he goes back and breaks up with Cassie. Just my take on it, though.
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I'm convinced he would never even go looking for, let alone find, another Jack - I don't think he needed to, because Jack would remain alive in his heart and his dreams - but I do think that maybe, just maybe, his acceptance of his feelings for Jack would allow him to be more open to being loved by, and being part of, Junior's life.
I am in tears here.
Ennis is dead to the world; but Jack remains alive within him forever.
Me too! :\'(
Beautiful posts everyone.
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Can't say much more than yep. You've moved me to tears. :\'( You all really see into our boys' hearts. Thanks for the posts.
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I agree with Stacp here Ennis seemed kinda nervous about telling Jack about Nov., looking down when Jack eye'd him, biting his nails etc... He knew Jack was already down already about another "parting" and did'nt want upset him further.
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But that "Go ahead" comment is confrontational. I can see him thinking, "OK, let's get this over with," and hoping that as he hasn't the strength to end it, Jack will abandon him. After all it's Ennis who sends the next postcard, so he hasn't given up on Jack, because IMO he can't. And if he's lived Jack IMO would have responded - they're closely entangled to break apart, and in the end love lasts regardless of physical proximity.
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But that "Go ahead" comment is confrontational. I can see him thinking, "OK, let's get this over with," and hoping that as he hasn't the strength to end it, Jack will abandon him. After all it's Ennis who sends the next postcard, so he hasn't given up on Jack, because IMO he can't. And if he's lived Jack IMO would have responded - they're closely entangled to break apart, and in the end love lasts regardless of physical proximity.
This is an interesting point of view, perhaps suitable for having its own thread. At that point you mentioned in the confrontation, was Ennis pushing Jack to abandon him?
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I see Ennis as thinking, just for a moment, that at least without Jack, in other words if he chose loneliness, he'd know where he was and not have to put up with all the emotional gut-wrenching that seeing Jack imposed.
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I see Ennis as thinking, just for a moment, that at least without Jack, in other words if he chose loneliness, he'd know where he was and not have to put up with all the emotional gut-wrenching that seeing Jack imposed.
Yes, I totally agree with this. Getting personal here, but I had a difficult childhood - feelings of abandonment etc. - and recognized in therapy that I do have a tendency to drive people away so that I could keep my walls up. Although I feel lonely and miserable -- at least this is something I KNOW -- and I don't have to conquer my fears. I see Ennis as being like this to a great degree, his guard is always up, holding his secrets deep within him, afraid to let anyone get too close. So during the fight, I see echoes of fights that I have had with my spouse/boyfriends...where I cross into territory I know will aggravate the other person, so as to drive them away. This is why Ennis is so quick to say " So...Why don't you then?" when Jack says he wishes he could quit him. As excruciatingly painful as it would be to lose Jack, as least Ennis can MOVE ON and stop this feeling of going no where, being nothing, losing his identity. And also, in his mind Ennis thinks ..."Well, he's better off without me because I make him so miserable. I love him so much, I can't stand seeing him this way. " This is echoed in his reaction to Cassie, when she confronts him in the diner. "I guess I never was any fun." Maybe I am putting too much of my own life, in this interpretation, please forgive me.
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I see Ennis as thinking, just for a moment, that at least without Jack, in other words if he chose loneliness, he'd know where he was and not have to put up with all the emotional gut-wrenching that seeing Jack imposed.
Yes, I totally agree with this. Getting personal here, but I had a difficult childhood - feelings of abandonment etc. - and recognized in therapy that I do have a tendency to drive people away so that I could keep my walls up. Although I feel lonely and miserable -- at least this is something I KNOW -- and I don't have to conquer my fears. I see Ennis as being like this to a great degree, his guard is always up, holding his secrets deep within him, afraid to let anyone get too close. So during the fight, I see echoes of fights that I have had with my spouse/boyfriends...where I cross into territory I know will aggravate the other person, so as to drive them away. This is why Ennis is so quick to say " So...Why don't you then?" when Jack says he wishes he could quit him. As excruciatingly painful as it would be to lose Jack, as least Ennis can MOVE ON and stop this feeling of going no where, being nothing, losing his identity. And also, in his mind Ennis thinks ..."Well, he's better off without me because I make him so miserable. I love him so much, I can't stand seeing him this way. " This is echoed in his reaction to Cassie, when she confronts him in the diner. "I guess I never was any fun." Maybe I am putting too much of my own life, in this interpretation, please forgive me.
smilesalot, thank you for sharing this personal matter with us. You would probably understand this aspect of Ennis's character. The defensive reaction is also born out of fear of getting hurt, correct? In a way, Ennis's desire to get over "it" was doomed to failure -- an he knew it. Either way, the hurt confronts him -- no matter what he did. Perhaps he wanted then to go beyond his problematic love of Jack, but he must have known that he could not live without that love.
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CrimsonSky, I, too, am interested in Alma's comment about Ennis not wanting the girls to grow up so lonely like he was when he was a kid. I think this line shows us that Ennis did open up to Alma in some ways. He obviously opened up to her when talking about his lonely childhood. Perhaps he DID make an effort to get to know Alma on a deeper level and TRIED to love her, thinking he and she were going to be together all their lives.
As far as Ennis and Jack: Does it really make any difference what brings two people together? Maybe it was loneliness on both their parts, but that's immaterial. The fact is, SOMETHING brought them together. There was something to which they both could relate that made them attractive to each other. Maybe it was mutual loneliness, maybe it was physical attraction, maybe it was being alone together on the mountain. We will never know, but it just doesn't matter in the long run. They DID fall in love, no matter what spurred that love.
I think they both were very lonesome boys. Ennis, with deceased parents and a brother and sister who could no longer make room for him, and Jack, coming from such a sterile environment with such an A-hole for a father. (Even a kind mother couldn't make up totally for such a father-figure!) Also, neither man talks about having any friends at all. You never saw Ennis having a drink with a buddy down at the bar, and you never saw anyone paying any attention to Jack, except for Lureen. Lonely they were, IMHP, just waiting for someone to love.
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lamusica, you make me cry for them all over again. Everyone has shown great insights. Thanks for letting me tag along on the journey!
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I felt the "why don't ya just let me be" was Ennis kind of calling Jack's bluff a little bit here taking into account the confession Jack had just made about Mexico. He was real mad .He was also sick of dealing with the whole damn thing .But also scared of loosing Jack forever. It all came down on him at once. I can't say that Ennis would purposely sabotage the relationship.
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I agree. It was obviously eating him alive, but he was also desperately holding on to it. The pleading to use Don Wroe's cabin again, sending the postcard for November even after the confrontation. Ennis was not going to walk away from this relationship even if he wanted to; he couldn't.
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smilesalot, thank you for sharing this personal matter with us. You would probably understand this aspect of Ennis's character. The defensive reaction is also born out of fear of getting hurt, correct? In a way, Ennis's desire to get over "it" was doomed to failure -- an he knew it. Either way, the hurt confronts him -- no matter what he did. Perhaps he wanted then to go beyond his problematic love of Jack, but he must have known that he could not live without that love.
Definitely, as I see it, fear of getting hurt. I regret now using the word "sabotage" earlier, because it assumes an air of manipulation which is not at all fair to Ennis. I think Ennis just believes himself to be unloveable, and cannot comprehend how anyone can love him as deeply as Jack does. Ennis has nothing in his experience that he can compare Jack's love to...never having experienced steadfast love from his family. Which is why I think, Ennis chooses loneliness instead of love while Jack was alive -- because the thought of love is so painfully foreign -- "What if I commit myself to him and take the chance and HE leaves me too?" However, when Ennis sees the shirts he realizes the depth of Jack's love for him, and IMO Ennis finally chooses love and honours it. I am not sure if even Ennis really admitted to himself how much he needed Jack until the end. Maybe he felt he could survive without Jack if Jack was to walk away - especially if Ennis thought this was for JACK'S own good. Ennis was just going to fall back on the "gotta stand it" stoicism that shaped his life.
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smilesalot, thank you for sharing this personal matter with us. You would probably understand this aspect of Ennis's character. The defensive reaction is also born out of fear of getting hurt, correct? In a way, Ennis's desire to get over "it" was doomed to failure -- an he knew it. Either way, the hurt confronts him -- no matter what he did. Perhaps he wanted then to go beyond his problematic love of Jack, but he must have known that he could not live without that love.
Definitely, as I see it, fear of getting hurt. I regret now using the word "sabotage" earlier, because it assumes an air of manipulation which is not at all fair to Ennis. I think Ennis just believes himself to be unloveable, and cannot comprehend how anyone can love him as deeply as Jack does. Ennis has nothing in his experience that he can compare Jack's love to...never having experienced steadfast love from his family. Which is why I think, Ennis chooses loneliness instead of love while Jack was alive -- because the thought of love is so painfully foreign -- "What if I commit myself to him and take the chance and HE leaves me too?" However, when Ennis sees the shirts he realizes the depth of Jack's love for him, and IMO Ennis finally chooses love and honours it. I am not sure if even Ennis really admitted to himself how much he needed Jack until the end. Maybe he felt he could survive without Jack if Jack was to walk away - especially if Ennis thought this was for JACK'S own good. Ennis was just going to fall back on the "gotta stand it" stoicism that shaped his life.
This is beautiful.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with it, this is beautiful.
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That's the beauty of this love story. Regardless, of how you interpret it...it just brings you outside yourself. No wonder it changed my life.
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That's the beauty of this love story. Regardless, of how you interpret it...it just brings you outside yourself. No wonder it changed my life.
I have thought many a time of the connection between love, joy, and loneliness. In the context of BBM, the story allows us to go outside ourselves if only to delve deeper within our own hearts.
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That's the beauty of this love story. Regardless, of how you interpret it...it just brings you outside yourself. No wonder it changed my life.
I have thought many a time of the connection between love, joy, and loneliness. In the context of BBM, the story allows us to go outside ourselves if only to delve deeper within our own hearts.
That is the beauty of the story. Even though my life bears very little similarity to BBM per se, the themes that run through it, of loneliness, joy and lost love to some degree i can relate to, and by stepping back and trying to comprehend the story Annie has created gives me some insight into myself. It's remarkable, and i feel so lucky having the chance to have the BBM experience. :)
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I felt the "why don't ya just let me be" was Ennis kind of calling Jack's bluff a little bit here taking into account the confession Jack had just made about Mexico. He was real mad .He was also sick of dealing with the whole damn thing .But also scared of loosing Jack forever. It all came down on him at once. I can't say that Ennis would purposely sabotage the relationship.
I agree, ain'tfoolin about Ennis calling Jack's bluff. I just think a confrontation between these two about EVERYTHING that went on during these 20 years was inevitable. Just like Alma's confrontation with Ennis, sometimes you just have to air out your dirty laundry before you can make a change, whatever that change is (if at all). By nature, people say things during argument that they don't mean or wouldn't say otherwise. I think this is what Ennis' "why don't ya let me be" line is all about. Sure, it would be easier for Jack to let him be, but does Ennis really want this? No way. I think Ennis is trying to let Jack know here that, "hey, you're not the only one in pain. My heart is breaking, too."
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And Enins did send another postcard to Jack post argument proving this point that he did'nt mean it.
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You're right. In emotional extremis, one says things one may have thought before but never voiced because they're unsayable. Afterwards it's too late to recall them even if one wants to. Once Jack is dead, I can;t imagine how Ennis will cope with hearing his own last words to him playing over in his head when he's alone and there's nothing he can do to change things.
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I contain my cries, take back the words that escape me,
and force myself to swallow the tears I’ve shed.
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O call back yesterday, bid time return.
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O call back yesterday, bid time return.
The worst is death, and death will have his day.
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Uhh...you guys are killing me here!! Especially the image of Ennis, his words echoing back to him, with no way to "un-say" them, to deliver himself from the guilt. Regardless of his obvious grief, he's going to be all right, isn't he? I know he's not a very optimistic person, but he's going to carefully build on the love he experienced with Jack and find comfort and strength in that, right? I need some assurance here because the thought of my Ennis alone and unloved on the grieving plain just tears me apart.
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Uhh...you guys are killing me here!! Especially the image of Ennis, his words echoing back to him, with no way to "un-say" them, to deliver himself from the guilt. Regardless of his obvious grief, he's going to be all right, isn't he? I know he's not a very optimistic person, but he's going to carefully build on the love he experienced with Jack and find comfort and strength in that, right? I need some assurance here because the thought of my Ennis alone and unloved on the grieving plain just tears me apart.
smilesalot , I know you are right: in spite of the overwhelming loneliness, having loved deeply is a comfort that will last more than one lifetime.
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Yes, but it's a heck of a thing to not realize what you had until it's gone and live the rest of your life without it. Thank goodness for Junior and the comfort from the knowledge gained of just how much Jack loved him from finding the shirts to sustain him till they can be together again. :( Sorry, I do believe in the happy ending - I just don't think he'll find it fully in this life...
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How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;
And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars.
(Yeats)
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Well, heck, now I'm crying like Jack did after Ennis pushes him off after the divorce. DAMN!! Which way to Mexico?............Not for the sex, just for the tequila......... :`)
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Maybe being lonely isn't the worst thing that can happen to you - Ennis is better able to cope with it than most, and he has " something to hold against the heart during the long cold" in the shirts and his memories of the times on the mountain.
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Maybe being lonely isn't the worst thing that can happen to you - Ennis is better able to cope with it than most, and he has " something to hold against the heart during the long cold" in the shirts and his memories of the times on the mountain.
To hold against the heart during the long cold -- long after the heart he holds is dead.
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What an amazing thread you've started Aimi! :) I think this is a fascinating subject, but so so sad, and I've just read everyone's posts and feel like I want to cry. :\'( :\'( Don't really have anything particularly new to add, as everyone has expressed such interesting opinions on this subject, but I do think that Ennis was lonely from an early age, felt abandoned, was used to being alone, wasnt on the look out to make friends, let alone anything more intimate, with Jack. But Jack brought Ennis out of himself, and they found a companion where none was expected, as in the words of the great Annie Proulx. I think the initial friendship they developed was borne out of their shared experiences of life before Brokeback, but I believe wholeheartedly that out of that came love, for both of them. It was harder for Ennis to articulate his feelings and to make sense of the love he had for Jack, but it was love. 100%. IMHO.
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Thank you for this important thread! Both Ennis and Jack were loners, but a little bit different ways. For Ennis everything was much more difficult than for Jack, as we have seen. Views you have brought to daylight in this discussion are so true and wise and moving and beautiful. This touches something deep in my heart (and everyone´s) and brings up similarities. I don´t mean exact similarities, but the basic feelings of love, loneliness, joy, fear, disappoinment etc., which live inside the human heart.
Poor Ennis, I love him more and more each day. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Thank you all for your kind words. Carmilla, i agree with you entirely, Ennis breaks my heart. As much as i think in some ways he contributed to his own misery, in that he couldn't give Jack and himself a chance, i believe being Ennis he couldn't do any other. His nature IMO led him to push those he loved away, so whilst he was lonely, it was a loneliness of his own making, therefore he was in control. Doesn't make it any less tragic though.
I've bawled my head off for Jack, his demise had an immediate impact on me, yet it is what happens to Ennis alone in his trailer that has haunted me more. At least there is some hope for him at the end in the form of Alma Jnr, i believe she was the only other person bar Jack that could have given him any hope at the end. :\'(
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I've bawled my head off for Jack, his demise had an immediate impact on me, yet it is what happens to Ennis alone in his trailer that has haunted me more. At least there is some hope for him at the end in the form of Alma Jnr, i believe she was the only other person bar Jack that could have given him any hope at the end. :\'(
I totally agree wth this Aimi. I know it just seems we keep putting the screws on poor Ennis, but it broke my heart the other day when he's confronted with the Stud Duck Mr. Twist and you can see in his eyes he's thinking -- "It was MY decision to live a life apart from Jack and now I can't even be a part of his death." The see such deep regret in him in that moment, especially since he had found the shirts and he KNEW how much Jack loved him. When I see him leaving the Twists, clutching that paper bag I can't help but feel, "Well, here it is. The one thing he can't fix and he won't be able to stand." Yet, two years later, we see Ennis' long-term self-preservation methods have kicked in and he's still standing and even willing to move forward for the sake of his daughter.
I also love Alma Jr. so much in the end. All the hurt and disappointment from her Dad and she never gave up on him. She's still hoping he'll let her in to his life. And finally, he does! Such a moment of redemption between them.
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Beautifully put, smilesalot!
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I also think when you truly connect with people that is when you feel lonely, that is when they are gone.
If you are a free agent you tend to feel less lonely I believe. So yes, love and lonliness have a connection.
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this is hard cause i dont wanna dis ennis but i think that ennis was lonly cause he didnt want anyone to close to him so he wouldnt hurt them like he did to alma
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Loneliness is a way of avoiding risk, and Ennis isn't a risk-taker. It's also a way of avoiding pain; when he lets Jack into his life he ends up unhappy most of the time, and in terrible pain when Jack dies. so the easiest thing is to keep everyone out of his life than at least he won't be hurt again. Letting Alma Jr in isn't risking his heart in the same way.
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Loneliness is a way of avoiding risk, and Ennis isn't a risk-taker. It's also a way of avoiding pain; when he lets Jack into his life he ends up unhappy most of the time, and in terrible pain when Jack dies. so the easiest thing is to keep everyone out of his life than at least he won't be hurt again. Letting Alma Jr in isn't risking his heart in the same way.
I agree with this for the most part. Although he doesn't risk his heart with Alma Jr. -- I think for once he is willing to put his defenses aside for the sake of someone else. I mean, now that he's opened up a bit to her she's going to have higher expectations of him and is he going to keep disappointing her out of his need to be alone? Somehow I don't think so.
Great point, as well, bluesky. Ennis is lonely because he's afraid of being hurt and of hurting other people. He knows his need to protect himself hurts others. He's seen it in Alma, Jack, Cassie and Alma Jr. He sees the disappointment in their eyes. That's why it's so sweet when he agrees to Junior's wedding in a CHURCH, no less. The look in Jr.'s eyes when he agrees, gives me tingles every time.
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True; this time he's doing something against the grain for the sake of someone else - remember his reaction when Alma suggested the church social and the " as long as I don't have to sing" which was made to Alma Jr when she was a child? Ennis's Methodist mother doesn't appear to have made a big impact on him.
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I thought his comment about "that fire and brimstone crowd" was very telling. He was so conflicted about his sexuality and so worried that other people would know, it's not surprising he didn't want to be subjected to the kind of preaching that would only remind him of his 'sin'. Sorry, OT (but I'm sure welshwitch could find a way to get us back on track ;D).
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I'll do my best.
I think essentially Ennis has never been part of a community and relates to people, if at all, only on a one-to-one basis, which is why what happened on Brokeback probably wouldn'y have happened elsewhere. Ennis never has a life with Jack, in the sense of functioning in a social context - their encounters are generallyy with each other alone. When others are there on the margins, Alma in the reunion and the girls after the divorce, Ennis is uneasy and can't wait to get rid of them. He's the classic Western loner and will go on with his life in that way when Jack is gone. Put Ennis with other people - eg in the July 4th scene, the super market, Thnksgiving, etc. and he's ill at ease or violent. So loneliness is a natural state for him.
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I totally agree wth this Aimi. I know it just seems we keep putting the screws on poor Ennis, but it broke my heart the other day when he's confronted with the Stud Duck Mr. Twist and you can see in his eyes he's thinking -- "It was MY decision to live a life apart from Jack and now I can't even be a part of his death." The see such deep regret in him in that moment, especially since he had found the shirts and he KNEW how much Jack loved him. When I see him leaving the Twists, clutching that paper bag I can't help but feel, "Well, here it is. The one thing he can't fix and he won't be able to stand." Yet, two years later, we see Ennis' long-term self-preservation methods have kicked in and he's still standing and even willing to move forward for the sake of his daughter.
I also love Alma Jr. so much in the end. All the hurt and disappointment from her Dad and she never gave up on him. She's still hoping he'll let her in to his life. And finally, he does! Such a moment of redemption between them.
What a wonderful but heartbreaking post! I got all emotional reading it, thinking about Ennis in Jack's childhood home. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Whack! She hits it right out of the park! I'll have to see if jerasjr has a graphic of someone bowing down so that I can properly honor your superior insight. 8) Very well said welshwitch!
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I'll do my best.
I think essentially Ennis has never been part of a community and relates to people, if at all, only on a one-to-one basis, which is why what happened on Brokeback probably wouldn'y have happened elsewhere. Ennis never has a life with Jack, in the sense of functioning in a social context - their encounters are generallyy with each other alone. When others are there on the margins, Alma in the reunion and the girls after the divorce, Ennis is uneasy and can't wait to get rid of them. He's the classic Western loner and will go on with his life in that way when Jack is gone. Put Ennis with other people - eg in the July 4th scene, the super market, Thnksgiving, etc. and he's ill at ease or violent. So loneliness is a natural state for him.
I do agree that Ennis never really did fit in with the community. Was it because of his love for Jack. That was a part of it, I believe. But I think the core of his inability is rooted on the same thing that made him refuse to live a life with Jack: fear of his own self.
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His father's showing him what " they" cold do to Earl would have been enough to make him afraid of theopinions andpower of others - it's a version of theold Western posse or vigilante idea to me. His parents died, "deserted " him in psychobabble, his sister and brother only tolerated him till they could get rid of him - it's not surprising that he was afraid of involvement with others.
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It's amazing how this thread had helped me draw the distinction between being a loner and being lonely. Ennis, as a product of his circumstances is a loner - not used to being around people, anger/fear keeping him from being close to people. I think, yes, he is lonely too because he has no one to tallk to, no one who understands him, no one he is willing to RISK opening up to. When he meets Jack he is still a loner, but less lonely, because at least he has someone he can share his SOUL with. Someone who forces him to let his guard down.
Of course, Ennis is still very attached with his kids...but then, does he really love them intimately, or does he do all the things he thinks a father should do. I get the feeling even though Ennis is more demonstrative with his kids, he still keeps his walls up.
After Jack's death, although Ennis is still a loner, I see him as less lonely. (I know, it's my optimism again....I just want him to be OKAY!!) Maybe it's those shirts in the closet, that daily reminder that someone loved him to his SOUL, and he was WORTHY of this love, that makes me hope that Ennis is more accepting of himself.
Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should ( I just want him to be OKAY!), but the little interchange with Mrs. Twist seems promising to me, as well. Kind of like, well maybe she can take him on as her son and he can take her on as his mother and, there you go, there's Jack's influence from beyond the grave. It just gives me comfort to think 'No more apple pie for Ennis in that lonely old diner. Maybe a nice piece of cherry cake over at Jack's childhood home, once the Stud Duck kicks off." Oh well, we can only dream...
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Well put,I know what you mean about feeling the shirts in the closet were more than many people have. Maybe Ennis would know that. He had a memory and a knowing of what he had.
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It's amazing how this thread had helped me draw the distinction between being a loner and being lonely. Ennis, as a product of his circumstances is a loner - not used to being around people, anger/fear keeping him from being close to people. I think, yes, he is lonely too because he has no one to tallk to, no one who understands him, no one he is willing to RISK opening up to. When he meets Jack he is still a loner, but less lonely, because at least he has someone he can share his SOUL with. Someone who forces him to let his guard down.
Of course, Ennis is still very attached with his kids...but then, does he really love them intimately, or does he do all the things he thinks a father should do. I get the feeling even though Ennis is more demonstrative with his kids, he still keeps his walls up.
After Jack's death, although Ennis is still a loner, I see him as less lonely. (I know, it's my optimism again....I just want him to be OKAY!!) Maybe it's those shirts in the closet, that daily reminder that someone loved him to his SOUL, and he was WORTHY of this love, that makes me hope that Ennis is more accepting of himself.
Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should ( I just want him to be OKAY!), but the little interchange with Mrs. Twist seems promising to me, as well. Kind of like, well maybe she can take him on as her son and he can take her on as his mother and, there you go, there's Jack's influence from beyond the grave. It just gives me comfort to think 'No more apple pie for Ennis in that lonely old diner. Maybe a nice piece of cherry cake over at Jack's childhood home, once the Stud Duck kicks off." Oh well, we can only dream...
Jack was food enough for Ennis's soul, no? And a few times a year was enough to sustain him.
If I may stretch the metaphor, Ennis could have had the banquet had he so chosen. But his loneliess and fear got the better of him. I do agree that he kept his walls up even with his daughters, EVEN with Jack.
Did Jack's death make a breach on the walls? I don't know. What I do know is that Ennis did come to see what was beyond those walls...