Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: kcristob on Jan 16, 2006, 02:39 PM
-
I hope I'm not repeating an earlier topic, but am really distracted with a question (and I really need to get back to work). So here it is:
On the morning after jack and ennis' first encounter we see ennis ride up the mountain with a shy, hopeful jack saying "see you for supper" or something like that. The very next scene has ennis walking over to jack who is looking over the valley below and that's when ennis says "one shot deal" etc.
So, obviously Jack went UP to him, right? Because the sheep are there. Is that what others think? And was it that morning or night? And how is it that ennis came up to JACK instead of the other way around.
Please, my head is aching with these questions! Any ideas out there?
-
I find that scene enigmatical too, was Ang taking cinematic license so he could get a great shot with the sheep, cause I thought the idea was
Ennis came back. But perhaps it was Jack who went up there, and then Ennis said that, later back at the camp we know Ennis sort of took it back ;)
-
Please, my head is aching with these questions! Any ideas out there?
It is a strange scene indeed. In the short story there isn't a second tent scene! It just moves on (see below).
I guess it was 'Ang Lee' preparing the audience for Ennis and Jack's relationship.
My POV is that when Ennis goes to see Jack, in a way he acknowledges their affair, admits that what they shared was ok by him. (He did storm off pretty quickly in the morning, and maybe felt that he needed Jack to know!)
Then that night, Jack just waits for Ennis to make up his mind, after all he did the first move the night before, now it is Ennis' turn to do it!
Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top-grade headache, and
Jack butted against him; without saying anything about it both knew how it would go
for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.
As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at
night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the
fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a
goddamn word except once Ennis said, "I'm not no queer," and Jack jumped in with
"Me neither. A one-shot thing. Nobody's business but ours." There were only the two
of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the
hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above
ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.
-
Please, my head is aching with these questions! Any ideas out there?
It is a strange scene indeed. In the short story there isn't a second tent scene! It just moves on (see below).
I guess it was 'Ang Lee' preparing the audience for Ennis and Jack's relationship.
My POV is that when Ennis goes to see Jack, in a way he acknowledges their affair, admits that what they shared was ok by him. (He did storm off pretty quickly in the morning, and maybe felt that he needed Jack to know!)
Then that night, Jack just waits for Ennis to make up his mind, after all he did the first move the night before, now it is Ennis' turn to do it!
Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top-grade headache, and
Jack butted against him; without saying anything about it both knew how it would go
for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.
As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at
night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the
fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a
goddamn word except once Ennis said, "I'm not no queer," and Jack jumped in with
"Me neither. A one-shot thing. Nobody's business but ours." There were only the two
of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the
hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above
ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.
I think because the language of the story is lyrical to express how it was "flying in the euphoric air" to tell the story, they had to show
that it wasn't always like the first time, quick and dirty. There was intimacy there.
-
I think because the language of the story is lyrical to express how it was "flying in the euphoric air" to tell the story, they had to show
that it wasn't always like the first time, quick and dirty. There was intimacy there.
And that too!!! Thankx
-
I hope I'm not repeating an earlier topic, but am really distracted with a question (and I really need to get back to work). So here it is:
On the morning after jack and ennis' first encounter we see ennis ride up the mountain with a shy, hopeful jack saying "see you for supper" or something like that. The very next scene has ennis walking over to jack who is looking over the valley below and that's when ennis says "one shot deal" etc.
So, obviously Jack went UP to him, right? Because the sheep are there. Is that what others think? And was it that morning or night? And how is it that ennis came up to JACK instead of the other way around.
Please, my head is aching with these questions! Any ideas out there?
kcristob, perfect! I had wondered about this also and I did assume like you that Jack went up to Ennis.
Recall that the scene itself (not the dialog) is not part of the original story. I think I did look up the screenplay to see if it had an explanation and found no additional comments on the directions. I will cehck this again and report back.
It is a bit enigmatic, but it does work wonderfully, don't you think? It perhaps shows that Jack was a bit concerned and wanted to be reassured that they had gone into something that would set them apart (e.g., if Ennis freaked out and decided to keep his distance from Jack.)
-
THe way Ang (I love how I call him "Ang" now like i know him...he he) has them not face each other as they speak.
-
What strikes me the morning after is that Jack sleeps. It was his job to make breakfast, tend camp. Ennis had to get to the sheep and spend all day without a meal. All Jack could do was stumble out and say, see you at supper. Ennis gave him a look. In Ennis's mind this was unraveling. Ennis didn't complain about work. Jack did plenty of complaining.
Did anyone else notice that Jack couldn't cook, couldn't shoot.. Ennis was very capable and could do everything. But at the same time could be manipulated by Jack. The one thing Jack did well was seduce Ennis. The test was the second night.. and Ennis went for it.
-
well i think it was just later in the day and Jack went up the mountain to just clear his mind, think whatever.....
so Ennis approached him.
I felt bad for Jack when he came out of the tent after the first night. He probably wasn't sure what to say at all......
-
What strikes me the morning after is that Jack sleeps. It was his job to make breakfast, tend camp. Ennis had to get to the sheep and spend all day without a meal. All Jack could do was stumble out and say, see you at supper. Ennis gave him a look. In Ennis's mind this was unraveling. Ennis didn't complain about work. Jack did plenty of complaining.
Did anyone else notice that Jack couldn't cook, couldn't shoot.. Ennis was very capable and could do everything. But at the same time could be manipulated by Jack. The one thing Jack did well was seduce Ennis. The test was the second night.. and Ennis went for it.
Good point! Jack wasn't good at too many things, the poor dear, but he was good at loving his Ennis! :)
-
What strikes me the morning after is that Jack sleeps. It was his job to make breakfast, tend camp. Ennis had to get to the sheep and spend all day without a meal. All Jack could do was stumble out and say, see you at supper. Ennis gave him a look. In Ennis's mind this was unraveling. Ennis didn't complain about work. Jack did plenty of complaining.
Did anyone else notice that Jack couldn't cook, couldn't shoot.. Ennis was very capable and could do everything. But at the same time could be manipulated by Jack. The one thing Jack did well was seduce Ennis. The test was the second night.. and Ennis went for it.
Hello tamlynn , there is a threads devoted to this subject, especially one in thr Jake Gyllenhaal part of the forum, entitled "Jack the Dreamer".
I don't think Jack was manipulating Ennis here. You actually get to see here Ennis's growing love for Jack, in the way he quietly tries to do things for him. Ennis did a lot of this because he wanted to, not because he was being manipulated into doing anything he did not want to. I think Jack was genuinely surprised at how much Ennis took what he said to heart.
There is fact one instance where I had always believed that Jack's intentions backfired. This is when Jack constantly complains about staying with the sheep and that he thought BOTH of them should stay in camp at night.
I had always thought that what Jack really wanted was to spend the night in the same place WITH Ennis, for reasons that became apparent in the FNIT.
-
The word *manipulating* conjures up negative conatations. I don't see Ennis being manipulated by Jack, still I don't see FNIT as just a spur of the moment happening either. More of a strong suspicion on Jack's part that Ennis was ripe for the picking. His suspicions proved correct IMO it was a subtle slow build up of emotions and desires finally realized in a physical way by these two. I would descibe Jack's actions as more *calculating*. He did what he had to do get the desired response he wanted from Ennis. Took a chance , could've got his lights put out , but he went on and went with his gut feeling since Ennis was'nt gonna just volunteer. If Ennis was'nt ready to* merge the urge* Jack's ready or not seduction got him there real quick. No sex manuals needed. He got the picture.
-
It's less manipulating than what we all do when someone new comes along - try to adjust to them without losing sight of what we are, try to modify what we say and do to fit in with them without changing ourself into something unrecognisable.
-
This is where it gets muddle for me. That FNIT, was started by Jack taking Ennis hand, but Ennis takes Jack. Was it because he was drunk, was it anger, or was like the shooting of the elk, going to sleep with sheep, was it "no more beans" Was Ennis doing one more thing that Jack wanted?
And in turn found that he wanted it too, because the SNIT was all Jack, Ennis needed to be shown the way, how to make love, and not just have sex, and what to do with these feelings, Ennis had to find this out and Jack showed him.
Jack may not have been good at a lot of things, but Ennis didn't care. Jack gave him something that no one else did.
-
I think it was Jackster who quoted the short story here and notes that this signified that Ennis was not someone who was into "play".
There was a degree of impulsiveness even here. His reaction the morning after is not that surprising, given that he had given in to his urges withough that much thought or reflection upon his fears.
-
The way I see that time line is: After Jack said, "See you for supper", Ennis rode off to the sheeps. Jack stayed and do the necessary chores--washing Ennis' clothes, chop wood, etc...Then by evening, Jack rode up to Ennis, maybe to see if he scared away Ennis or maybe just to see him. Then they rode back down together for supper. After supper, Jack went to his tent and undress. Then Ennis goes to Jack to start the SNIT.
I also think that Jack's complaints has to do more with wanting to get Ennis in the tent with him than about the work itself.
-
The way I see that time line is: After Jack said, "See you for supper", Ennis rode off to the sheeps. Jack stayed and do the necessary chores--washing Ennis' clothes, chop wood, etc...Then by evening, Jack rode up to Ennis, maybe to see if he scared away Ennis or maybe just to see him. Then they rode back down together for supper. After supper, Jack went to his tent and undress. Then Ennis goes to Jack to start the SNIT.
Yes, I think this is a plausible scenario, and I think many of us thought the same when we saw these scenes.
I also think that Jack's complaints has to do more with wanting to get Ennis in the tent with him than about the work itself.
JT, I agree.
Thanks for making a lucid and very succinct summary here!
-
What must have gone been going on in their minds that day, and the courage it took Jack to ride out to Ennis, and lay there on that hill side and wait for Ennis to come to him, Ennis had to come to him, "I took this step to you, come to me the rest of the way". They had to face it what happen the night before. I really never thought about that period of time.
-
What must have gone been going on in their minds that day, and the courage it took Jack to ride out to Ennis, and lay there on that hill side and wait for Ennis to come to him, Ennis had to come to him, "I took this step to you, come to me the rest of the way". They had to face it what happen the night before. I really never thought about that period of time.
Jack clearly took the initiative. He muist have had grave doubts of how Ennis would treat him after the FNIT, and yet he sought Ennis out and made him recognize what had happened between them. That was certainly very brave of Jack. With other people, he could have been killed...
-
Being alone together and far from "civilsation" ought perhaps have mad it easier for them to talk openly about what happened and what it meant to them. But Ennis was too repressed, and Jack too afraid of scaring him off, I guess. I sometimes imagine the conversation if Ennis had said, "I'm not queer," and Jack had replied, "Well, I am, and so what does that make you?" But that would have been too far too fast for Ennis - the trouble was that once the lie was established it was difficult to get away from it.
-
Jack clearly took the initiative. He muist have had grave doubts of how Ennis would treat him after the FNIT, and yet he sought Ennis out and made him recognize what had happened between them. That was certainly very brave of Jack. With other people, he could have been killed...
Indeed, Thomas. Jack is taking a big risk here. We see Jack lying there on the hill and Ennis walks to him with the gun. Ennis could have shot and kill him from behind. I was indeed brave of Jack and good instinct too.
-
Being alone together and far from "civilsation" ought perhaps have mad it easier for them to talk openly about what happened and what it meant to them. But Ennis was too repressed, and Jack too afraid of scaring him off, I guess. I sometimes imagine the conversation if Ennis had said, "I'm not queer," and Jack had replied, "Well, I am, and so what does that make you?" But that would have been too far too fast for Ennis - the trouble was that once the lie was established it was difficult to get away from it.
Their isolation certainly helped. Then again, it probably would have made Jack even more nervous, given that depending on how Ennis reacted, there would be nothing that would restrain him.
-
Indeed, Thomas. Jack is taking a big risk here. We see Jack lying there on the hill and Ennis walks to him with the gun. Ennis could have shot and kill him from behind. I was indeed brave of Jack and good instinct too.
Good instinct, indeed -- to show no outright fear and to go up and "confront" Ennis. Shwoing the gun in the various scenes after FNIT did highten the sense of nervousness as to what Ennis would do...
-
*o) and also I know Americans are always shooting each other by mistake come hunting season :) but I'd love to have seen Ennis trying to explain to Aguirre how he came to shoot Jack....
-
*o) and also I know Americans are always shooting each other by mistake come hunting season :) but I'd love to have seen Ennis trying to explain to Aguirre how he came to shoot Jack....
He would probably have to explain it as an accident while trying to chase away a cayote. Certainly, the shot of the scene showing the outer covering of a cayote as warning to other cayotes echoes the dread many of us felt in those morning scenes that followed the FNIT.
-
He would probably have to explain it as an accident while trying to chase away a cayote. Certainly, the shot of the scene showing the outer covering of a cayote as warning to other cayotes echoes the dread many of us felt in those morning scenes that followed the FNIT.
So that's what it was! can you believe I haven't figured that out until now? ;D
-
So that's what it was! can you believe I haven't figured that out until now? ;D
OT: keren, we are all still in discovery mode as far as BBM is concerned! :)
-
I thought Ennis had just hung up the coyote skin to show what a good shot he was - would it have scared off others of the same species? I didn't know that. I did think it looked a bit Davy Crockett.
-
I thought Ennis had just hung up the coyote skin to show what a good shot he was - would it have scared off others of the same species? I didn't know that. I did think it looked a bit Davy Crockett.
I would assume that the scenet would have been offensive to other cayotes, although I am not an expert in such matters! :)
-
Other than in movies, I don't think I've seen a coyote, though I've been to various US zoos. Do they have them in zoos? Are they like wolves, disliked because they prey on farm animals?
-
I would assume that the scenet would have been offensive to other cayotes, although I am not an expert in such matters! :)
OT: If you have the zoom feature on your dvd player, you can see that there were two coyotes hung on that pole!
-
Other than in movies, I don't think I've seen a coyote, though I've been to various US zoos. Do they have them in zoos? Are they like wolves, disliked because they prey on farm animals?
OT: I don't know if they're in zoos or not, but they're in most places out in the wild west. I've seen one in Joshua Tree NP. They look like wolves but smaller, but larger than foxes.
-
OT: If you have the zoom feature on your dvd player, you can see that there were two coyotes hung on that pole!
How interesting. Thanks JT, had not realized this!
-
So they're not the sort of things you can tame or would want around. I've never seen one to my knowledge but then I once saw some sort of wild cat in the Everglades that the ranger said wasn't.
-
Other than in movies, I don't think I've seen a coyote, though I've been to various US zoos. Do they have them in zoos? Are they like wolves, disliked because they prey on farm animals?
Yes. In 1963 you'd probably never see one east of the Mississippi, and I'm pretty sure they don't exist in the UK. These days they're actually making a big comeback in the eastern US. Here in eastern Ohio people see them all the time prowling around their exurban homes. There used to be a bounty on them, but that was eliminated about 20 years ago and now they're all over. In addition to stock animals they eat deer (so the hunters don't like 'em) wild turkey, small dogs, and have even been know to threaten very small children under the right circumstances. There is an open season on them, you can shoot one anytime (but not necessarily anywhere) hence Jack's potshot with no concern from the WY Game & Fish (unlike the Elk). Also, you'd probably only know this if you grew up in the USA during the 50s, but Davy Crockett, as immortalized by Walt Disney, wore a Coonskin cap (i.e. Racoon with tail!). Coyotes are generally considered pests and not something to liken ones self to. They can breed with wild dogs, but I believe wolves are a seperate subspecies (?), and of course reviled by stockmen as well.
-
. . the scene showing the outer covering of a cayote . . . .
Just FYI. Ennis or Jack would call 'em coyote "skins" or possibly "hides" if they were going to be tanned and preserved. :)
-
All in all it showed that Ennis was a far better shot then Jack. I think that's why we held our breath when Ennis walk up to Jack on that hill, with 30-30 in his hand. Ennis was more of the survivor than Jack, he shot the Elk, who skinned the elk, dismembered the elk, who shot the coyote, skinned the coyote, Ennis. Ennis was established right then and there as the hunter, the protector. Jack in the SNIT was established in the light of that tent, as the one that nurtured Ennis, and what ever wounds Ennis suffered melted away in Jack's arms that night. IMO.
-
Just FYI. Ennis or Jack would call 'em coyote "skins" or possibly "hides" if they were going to be tanned and preserved. :)
OT: Hello jackster, I thought of that, but I was not sure "skins" or "hides" is correct enough to include the fur. In both cases, I assume that the fur is scalded or scraped out? ;)
-
All in all it showed that Ennis was a far better shot then Jack. I think that's why we held our breath when Ennis walk up to Jack on that hill, with 30-30 in his hand. Ennis was more of the survivor than Jack, he shot the Elk, who skinned the elk, dismembered the elk, who shot the coyote, skinned the coyote, Ennis. Ennis was established right then and there as the hunter, the protector. Jack in the SNIT was established in the light of that tent, as the one that nurtured Ennis, and what ever wounds Ennis suffered melted away in Jack's arms that night. IMO.
I think it was also that Ennis could "do without" better than Jack. Sex included... The morning after seemed to indicate that desire was a bit alien to him. He certainly wanted Jack and was unwilling to "do without". And that bothered him, I suppose.
-
tpe,
What you say is true, isn't that was part of the conflict within Ennis, he could do without lot of things, Jack was someone he couldn't do without.
-
tpe,
What you say is true, isn't that was part of the conflict within Ennis, he could do without lot of things, Jack was someone he couldn't do without.
Thanks manhattangirl. I even venture to think that this was the first time Ennis felt he could not do without...
-
How interesting. Thanks JT, had not realized this!
OT: You bet, Thomas! As you can see, I use the zoom feature a lot and not just on coyotes. ^-^
-
OT: You bet, Thomas! As you can see, I use the zoom feature a lot and not just on coyotes. ^-^
Is there anything else between FNIT and SNIT that some of us may have missed, I wonder? I also wonder if there is any symbolism in the fact that there were TWO and not ONE?