Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: MississaugaRed on Aug 01, 2006, 03:06 PM
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This may have been discussed in part in other threads, although I don’t see one on this specifically so I’m going to ask the question ...
What damage was done to their chances for a life together during those four years they spent apart??
We have the main, obvious ones – the marriages, the kids. But it seems to me that the worse damage, the damage that stops them from having the sweet life Jack dreams of, was the passage of time.
No question, Ennis was already scarred by seeing Earl’s body. That kind of experience goes a ways to shaping you. However, it’s not EVERYTHING. There is a time we all go through as young adults where our personalities, our strengths and weaknesses, our opinions and decisions, start to define us.
At the age of 19, up on Brokeback, we see an Ennis who is wounded, wary, guarded – but still able to open up to MORE. Still able to remake himself, slowly, under Jack’s affection.
During those four years after Brokeback and before the reunion, Ennis pulls back into himself again. He grew into an adult, solidified (for want of a better term at the moment) into another version of himself by the time Jack found him again. And I think by then, the damage was largely done and the Ennis-mountain that Jack had to climb was steeper than it had been four years before. Not because of wife or kids or making a living, but because ENNIS had torqued himself into someone less adaptable by then.
Pure speculation, a great big “what if’, but .... any comments on this view of things??
(tpe ... of course feel free to move this if it should be someplace else. :) )
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I think you're right, MissRed. Ennis was a conventiopnal sort of guy - he married, worked, had two children and his image of himself was obviously that of a husband and father, whereas on Brokeback though engaged he had still been - just - a free agent. Now he's assumed the mantle of responsibility and respectability - that shot of him getting married is very telling, a rite of passage into adulthood. Ennis had put his youth behind him by the time he was twenty and Jack was part of that youth.
Evidently he still remembered Jack and what they had had togethe but I think he pushed it far into the recesses of memory, as one does with half-guilty, half-pleasurable memories. Ironically though it's Jack who says he didn't think they'd get back inot "this", by which I take him to mean sex, again it's Ennis who didn't think of its recurring and when Jack appeared I think there was no-one more surprised than Ennis at the viloence of his reaction and the passion of that kiss.
Jack got through Ennis's defences, his shell, on Brokeback where they were alone and Ennis was more vulnerable. Now he's rebuilt the fences and Jack has to break though a whole lot more than he did the first time. The passion is there and the desire to be together, but on Ennis's side not the will - if it ever was.
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I have a hard time seeing things as you do, Miss Red - although, of course, you may be right. I just feel that the reaction of Ennis when he was waiting for Jack to arrive was not of someone who was not anticipating that moment to occur some fine day. I believe Ennis was the conventional husband and father and took his responsibilities seriously, but I think he spent a lot of time thinking about Jack ( as it indicates in the ss). When Alma asks him if he knows somebody by the name of Jack, he hesitates, but it is a surprised hesitation. He didn't have to rack his brain to remember a guy named Jack. He immediately knew who Jack was, and he immediately slipped into the secret mode. He had to be careful in his response to Alma, and finally said he was a fishing buddy.
I doubt if Ennis would have ever gone looking for Jack, but the second he read that postcard, he was ready, willing and able to see Jack again and get things back to where they were on BBM. I think both men thought about the other a lot during those four years, only Jack wanted it badly enough to look Ennis up, where Ennis was content to suffer -- just his nature.
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I disagree (with MissRed and Welshwitch) - I think Ennis wanted "this thing" to start up again just as much as Jack did. He wasn't thinking of sitting having a quiet beer with Jack when he wrote "you bet" on that postcard - he was thinking of everything they had shared up on Brokeback and all the things they had done together. It's maybe not as clear in the movie as it is in the short story where he tells Jack he "wrung it out a hunderd times thinkin' of you", but while outwardly he had tried to fit into the conventional role of husband and father, his heart and his thoughts were elsewhere.
Back to the original question - would things have been different if they had discussed the "sweet life" up on Brokeback? I don't think they would. I think that Ennis' fears were just as strong there as they were four years on ("you know I ain't queer") and if Jack had asked him then, his answer would have been the same - witness how he reacts when Jack asks if he's going to do this again next summer.
OT - I've just realised that the character I dislike the most in BBM is Ennis' father. If he hadn't dragged Ennis to see Earl's body at such a young age who knows what would have happened.
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This may have been discussed in part in other threads, although I don’t see one on this specifically so I’m going to ask the question ...
What damage was done to their chances for a life together during those four years they spent apart??
We have the main, obvious ones – the marriages, the kids. But it seems to me that the worse damage, the damage that stops them from having the sweet life Jack dreams of, was the passage of time.
No question, Ennis was already scarred by seeing Earl’s body. That kind of experience goes a ways to shaping you. However, it’s not EVERYTHING. There is a time we all go through as young adults where our personalities, our strengths and weaknesses, our opinions and decisions, start to define us.
At the age of 19, up on Brokeback, we see an Ennis who is wounded, wary, guarded – but still able to open up to MORE. Still able to remake himself, slowly, under Jack’s affection.
During those four years after Brokeback and before the reunion, Ennis pulls back into himself again. He grew into an adult, solidified (for want of a better term at the moment) into another version of himself by the time Jack found him again. And I think by then, the damage was largely done and the Ennis-mountain that Jack had to climb was steeper than it had been four years before. Not because of wife or kids or making a living, but because ENNIS had torqued himself into someone less adaptable by then.
Pure speculation, a great big “what if’, but .... any comments on this view of things??
(tpe ... of course feel free to move this if it should be someplace else. :) )
What a brilliant new topic MississaugaRed :)
I said in another post if only Ennis had let Jack comfort him when his nose was bleeding on the mountain instead of hitting him.... Well, I don't know how much it would have changed, but imagine if immediately before their parting they had been very affectionate together. Maybe Ennis wouldn't have said 'guess I'll see you around'. <^( He might have said something more concrete, but I think I may be getting carried away now! :s)
I think you are so right to say that Ennis was more open to Jack and what they had up on the mountain, more able to remake himself, and that he retreated into his shell in the four years after.
I agree with lamusica that both men thought about each other a lot in those four years, and that Jack was the one who wanted it badly enough to look Ennis up, while Ennis was prepared to suffer on.
I agree with welshwitch that up on the mountain Jack got through Ennis' defences and he had a whole lot more to break through four years later.
I also have the nerve to agree with NoReins that maybe things wouldn't have been that different!
Hell, I'm so pleased to speculate on this I'm agreeing with everybody! ;D (^)
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Did you think that Ennis half-intentionally "torqued" himself this way -- as a guard against his love for Jack?
I think, up until Ennis saw Jack's postcard, or perhaps even up until Ennis saw Jack's truck park in front of the laundrymat, Ennis thought that he had put enough distance between him and his love for Jack.
He was wrong.
Like an arrow on a stretched bow, the trajectory has been set.
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This may have been discussed in part in other threads, although I don’t see one on this specifically so I’m going to ask the question ...
What damage was done to their chances for a life together during those four years they spent apart??
We have the main, obvious ones – the marriages, the kids. But it seems to me that the worse damage, the damage that stops them from having the sweet life Jack dreams of, was the passage of time.
No question, Ennis was already scarred by seeing Earl’s body. That kind of experience goes a ways to shaping you. However, it’s not EVERYTHING. There is a time we all go through as young adults where our personalities, our strengths and weaknesses, our opinions and decisions, start to define us.
At the age of 19, up on Brokeback, we see an Ennis who is wounded, wary, guarded – but still able to open up to MORE. Still able to remake himself, slowly, under Jack’s affection.
During those four years after Brokeback and before the reunion, Ennis pulls back into himself again. He grew into an adult, solidified (for want of a better term at the moment) into another version of himself by the time Jack found him again. And I think by then, the damage was largely done and the Ennis-mountain that Jack had to climb was steeper than it had been four years before. Not because of wife or kids or making a living, but because ENNIS had torqued himself into someone less adaptable by then.
Pure speculation, a great big “what if’, but .... any comments on this view of things??
(tpe ... of course feel free to move this if it should be someplace else. :) )
I don't think so MississaugaRed. and here is why. For four years Ennis thought about Jack. For four years he missed his best friend. For four years, except for twice that we know of, Ennis treated Alma as if she was Jack buy flipping her over. He even turns the light out to help him visualize Jack instead of Alma. When Alma mentions being lonely like he was as a child, he remembers how Jack took that loneliness away.
No, I think Ennis remained Jack oriented for those four years. The sad thing is he didn't contact Jack first. He knew where he could write to Jack better than Jack knew where to write to Ennis.
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No, I think Ennis remained Jack oriented for those four years. The sad thing is he didn't contact Jack first. He knew where he could write to Jack better than Jack knew where to write to Ennis.
The Twist Ranch, Lightning Flats! Never thought of that before! I've always thought Ennis couldn't know where Jack was. Now there's somethig new to think about. (Always something with this movie!)
Thanks Patriot1 :)
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Wow ... thanks for all the great discussion on this, everyone! :cr) We brokies do love our boys and it's good to see them in such gentle care here, I have to say, so hugs to you all ... :)
I guess my thoughts on this was not that Ennis used those for years to distance himself from Jack, or wasn't thinking on him during that time, since we can see from how he lived that he was still haunted by his memories and love. There is no question to me about their love or that they could ever be without one another.
My gut feeling was just that those four years apart give Ennis time to hunker down into his self-image as a "straight" man, become even more withdrawn from the world, and because of that Jack was faced with a much harder task in getting Ennis to take a chance of living with Jack the way both of them really wanted.
I think that maybe, as life and years form you, it often takes something drastic to make us move in a different direction. In Ennis's life some of those instances would be his falling in love with Jack up on Brokeback, the shock of his intense reaction to seeing Jack again when they reunited, his divorce and later ... Jack's death. All those times when Ennis might have been moved to make a change. What we see in the end is that it takes something as extreme as the death of the person he loved most to make he re-evaluate and maybe start trying to re-invent himself.
So I'm speculating that maybe there best chance at having a life together would have been right at the end of Brokeback summer; ever year after seems to add bricks to the wall that was Ennis Del Mar ... So if either of them had been able to connect again with each other earlier, maybe Ennis would have been more open to adjusting he's way of thinking of himself ...
Just a timing thing, no reflection on how much they loved each other, just reflecting on what losses come with missed opportunity, losses you can't always see for what they are ... :-\\ Thanks again everyone for giving deep thought to my silly musings ... ^f^
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So I'm speculating that maybe there best chance at having a life together would have been right at the end of Brokeback summer; ever year after seems to add bricks to the wall that was Ennis Del Mar ... So if either of them had been able to connect again with each other earlier, maybe Ennis would have been more open to adjusting he's way of thinking of himself ...
Just a timing thing, no reflection on how much they loved each other, just reflecting on what losses come with missed opportunity, losses you can't always see for what they are ... :-\\ Thanks again everyone for giving deep thought to my silly musings ... ^f^
Yes, I somehow feel the same way about this. This is what makes the farewell scene at the end of Summer 63 so moving. It could not be reversed.
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So I'm speculating that maybe there best chance at having a life together would have been right at the end of Brokeback summer; ever year after seems to add bricks to the wall that was Ennis Del Mar ... So if either of them had been able to connect again with each other earlier, maybe Ennis would have been more open to adjusting he's way of thinking of himself ...
Just a timing thing, no reflection on how much they loved each other, just reflecting on what losses come with missed opportunity, losses you can't always see for what they are ... :-\\ Thanks again everyone for giving deep thought to my silly musings ... ^f^
Yes, I somehow feel the same way about this. This is what makes the farewell scene at the end of Summer 63 so moving. It could not be reversed.
TPE, It's those doors closing again... :\'( Is there anything sadder than regret of missed oppotunities?
MississAugaRed I haven't found you musings sillly,
they've been profound thoughts provoking profound emotion. In me at least!
Rosie x
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Thank you, tpe and Rosie .. ^f^ Yes, it's the missed opportunities and the obstacles that get added in the wake of those that make these four years apart so very sad for me ...
We've all been profoundly moved by the story of Jack and Ennis, it's become impossible not to explore every aspect of their lives that we can, just to keep them close to us a little longer. That's how come for me to end up here ;) ... with people like all of you willing to discuss and consider, even when we see things differently; maybe especially then, since it opens our eyes to other visions. :)
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Would things have been different had it been a year or two instead of four. For Ennis, highly unlikely, I think. For Jack, he was still free... But it would take 2 of them to have made a difference. Would it have been possible for Jack to propose living together with Ennis in the Summer of 63? Would it have been possible for Ennis to consider the request? AS was said by someone before, perhaps things would have been different had Jack insisted that Ennis take a ride with him in that Summer of 63...
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Would things have been different had it been a year or two instead of four. For Ennis, highly unlikely, I think. For Jack, he was still free... But it would take 2 of them to have made a difference. Would it have been possible for Jack to propose living together with Ennis in the Summer of 63? Would it have been possible for Ennis to consider the request? AS was said by someone before, perhaps things would have been different had Jack insisted that Ennis take a ride with him in that Summer of 63...
If only...... <^(
Sorry if this is a bit *o) But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
:s) I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!
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Underlying Ennis's character is a sort of stubbornness. Befre he went up on Brokeback he was supposed to marry Alma in the winter, and that's what he did. If Jack had in some way come betweeen him and Alma before they married, things could perhaps have worked out differnetly. but that involves more persistance tha Jack might have been able to risk, and assumes a capacity for change that nnis probably didn't have. Ennis is like an oil tanker - it takes for ever to slow down and turn around. It took twenty years and Jack's death and the finding of the shirts to begin to start the process.
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If only...... <^(
Sorry if this is a bit *o) But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
:s) I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!
Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.
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If only...... <^(
Sorry if this is a bit *o) But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
:s) I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!
Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.
I *o) I think Ennis knew that Jack went to his parents but was afraid to contact Jack because of that punch...he said in the motel "I figured you was sore about that punch."
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If only...... <^(
Sorry if this is a bit *o) But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
:s) I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!
Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.
I *o) I think Ennis knew that Jack went to his parents but was afraid to contact Jack because of that punch...he said in the motel "I figured you was sore about that punch."
Why would the punch stop Ennis from writing to Jack? In the letter he could have apologized for the punch. And besides, the punch didn't seem to matter when the two boys were saying goodbye by Jack's truck. Otherwise Ennis might have apologized right then and there. Heaven knows Jack deserved an apology.
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If only...... <^(
Sorry if this is a bit *o) But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
:s) I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!
Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.
I *o) I think Ennis knew that Jack went to his parents but was afraid to contact Jack because of that punch...he said in the motel "I figured you was sore about that punch."
Why would the punch stop Ennis from writing to Jack? In the letter he could have apologized for the punch. And besides, the punch didn't seem to matter when the two boys were saying goodbye by Jack's truck. Otherwise Ennis might have apologized right then and there. Heaven knows Jack deserved an apology.
Patriot1, I understand your reasoning and I agree with you...Jack deserved an apology. But, you are not thinking like Ennis...that's what Ennis said (I figured you were sore about that punch) and Ennis' reasoning.
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If only...... <^(
Sorry if this is a bit *o) But I must ask. I've been thinking about what Patriot1 said about it being easier for Ennis to contact Jack than it was the other way around.
:s) I went back to the short story. (I know we should be discussing the movie here, so please move me somewhere else if you have to!) But..... in the motel reunion passage, when Jack says "How much is once in a while? Once in a while ever four f****** years?" It goes, "No" said Ennis, forbearing to ask whose fault that was. Now what I want to know is why does Ennis think that? It says earlier in the story that Jack had talked about his home ranch where his father and mother held on. Do you think it possible that Jack didn't say where it was? Do you think Ennis forgot? Why does Ennis think it's Jacks fault. (It seems as though he does.) Could it be that Ennis didn't dare in case of rejection? He only had to say the same sort of thing that Jack said on his postcard, see how the land lay, no big questions. Why does he think that it was Jacks responsibility to contact him? Could it just be an oversight by Annie Proulx? You see how many questions I've got! I've got zero answers at the moment. HELP!!
Rosie, this is pure speculation but either Annie Proulx didn't think about that or she just chose to ignore it. She was, after all, writing a short story.
I *o) I think Ennis knew that Jack went to his parents but was afraid to contact Jack because of that punch...he said in the motel "I figured you was sore about that punch."
Why would the punch stop Ennis from writing to Jack? In the letter he could have apologized for the punch. And besides, the punch didn't seem to matter when the two boys were saying goodbye by Jack's truck. Otherwise Ennis might have apologized right then and there. Heaven knows Jack deserved an apology.
Patriot1, I understand your reasoning and I agree with you...Jack deserved an apology. But, you are not thinking like Ennis...that's what Ennis said (I figured you were sore about that punch) and Ennis' reasoning.
But I am thinking like Ennis. Ennis figures he hasn't heard from Jack after one month, or six months, or a year and says to himself, 'damn, it must have been that punch I gave him. I better write to apologize and maybe I can even get to see him again.' But Ennis never writes even though he knew how to reach Jack.
Nah, Annie either didn't see it or chose to ignore it.
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Ennis wasn't going to write and apologize or write and anything. He wasn't going to make the first move because he was Ennis. I doubt if he'd have risked writng to Lightning Flat anyeway; the last thing Jack had said was that he was going up to his fathr's ranch for the winter and that he might be back if the army didn't get him. He could have been in the army, up on Brokeback ( Ennis never went back to see), off rodeoing, which Ennis knew he'd been doing because Jack told him about it.
My feeling is that of Jack hadn't made the first move, Ennis wouldn't have, and there's have been no reunion, no return to the mountains, nothing.
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Ennis wasn't going to write and apologize or write and anything. He wasn't going to make the first move because he was Ennis. I doubt if he'd have risked writng to Lightning Flat anyeway; the last thing Jack had said was that he was going up to his fathr's ranch for the winter and that he might be back if the army didn't get him. He could have been in the army, up on Brokeback ( Ennis never went back to see), off rodeoing, which Ennis knew he'd been doing because Jack told him about it.
My feeling is that of Jack hadn't made the first move, Ennis wouldn't have, and there's have been no reunion, no return to the mountains, nothing.
I have to concur with WW. No Jack first contact, no reunion, no 20 year affair. :(
Ennis, even feeling bad about that punch, had at least THOUGHT that he had put the summer on Brokeback, with everything that meant, behind him. He seemed to be focusing on getting by, raising his girls. No room in his world view to be reaching out for something he'd been told his whole life he shouldn't want. Couldn't hide those feels always, Alma becoming a substitute for what he wanted from Jack, but mostly he likely went on trying not to think on it. The minute Jack opens the door though, by getting in touch with Ennis first, Ennis was all over it in a second ... maybe he was able to fight his own feelings and deny himself, but no way could he deny both himself AND Jack, once he realized that Jack hadn't forgotten him either ... :-\\
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Ennis is so conflicted that it is very difficult to gauge his exact thoughts about Jack and BBM during those 4 years, except those things that he revealed at the motel 9n the short story. I do think it is humna nature to be less affected by something when time and distance intervene. Why he reacted the way he did when he first saw Jack through the window of his home was probably a spontaneous renewal of old feelings lying dormant -- awakened by Jack's renewed proximity and his determination to see Ennis once more.
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Very good points, tpe ...
There are too old adages that contradict each other ..
"Out of sight, out of mind" and "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". Could have been a little of both causing Ennis to react as he did after four years of not seeing Jack. He could deal with the separation and push his feelings down deep as long as Jack was not in proximity. As soon as Jack is within reach, all those emotions come rushing back to the surface, maybe richer and more complex because of the lenght of time they'd been held buried in his heart.
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Very good points, tpe ...
There are too old adages that contradiict each other ..
"Out of sight, out of mind" and "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". Could have been a little of both causing Ennis to react as he did after four years of not seeing Jack. He could deal with the separation and push his feelings down deep as long as Jack was not in proximity. As soon asJ ack is within reach, all those emotions come rushing back to the surface, maybe richer and more complex because of the lenght of time they'd been held buried in his heart.
Very nicely put, MississaugaRed. These old adages definitely encapsulate the idea quite beautifully. I really think it was understandable that Ennis reacted the way he did. The reappearance of an old lover certainly brings back emotions to many of us, even though we have convinced ourselves long ago that we have gotten over him/her.
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Thanks for all your thoughts. :)
(I've only just read them, so I haven't thought about this long) :i
I agree with you that if Jack had not contacted Ennis they would never have met up again. Ennis would have just carried on making a livin with Alma and the girls. Once Jack had made the move, Ennis reacted to it. I suppose he thought that it was Jacks fault that it was four years because they both realised that Ennis never would have made contact so if Jack had wanted it sooner he should have written sooner. I'm not expressing myself well - I don't know why - it's not that I thought that Ennis would have contacted Jack, it's that he thought to himself that it was Jacks fault that it had been four years. (It's not that he's saying it to Jack it's that he's thinking it to himself.) It could have been a hundred before Ennis contacted Jack. I think I've just answered my own question. Ennis thought it was Jacks fault because Jack was always going to be the one who either made contact or didn't and the length of time was dependent on him! OMG I'm going to stop now! ^*()
Somethimes this movie has me going round in circles :i
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Somethimes this movie has me going round in circles :i
;D
Not to worry, Rosie ... we all get that feeling at times, it's why we keep coming back .. and back and back ... :)
That thing about "fault" that you mention was from the SS, which I usually treat differently from the film. SS Ennis had some thoughts on the blame for their four year separation maybe lying at Jack's door, but in the film we are't given firm indication .. could be he had those feelings, could be not ... definitely open to interpretation. Interesting, though, what you said about how it was always up to Jack to make contact ... maybe Ennis was waiting for Jack to take the lead here? "not goin' to try to find you, Jack, 'cause I don't know that you want to be found" And he does let Jack take the lead in anything to do with their relationship it seems untill after the reunion. From then on, it was Ennis rules they played by, wasn't it? Now that he was secure about how Jack felt for him, Ennis had confidence to start calling the shots ... interesting idea, Rosie .. :s)
For what is's worth ;) I think SS Ennis might have had some fault for not contacting Jack, since he admits in the SS that he knew after about a year that he should never have let Jack out of his sight ... film Ennis never makes that admission, so I feel it makes sense that he wasn't the one to initiate contact ... :-\\ :-\\
Great ... now I'm going round in circles ... ::) happens to us all, Rosie ... :P
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Fascinating discussion as ever. But Ennis doesn't really strike you as a guy who is going to take the initiative in any circumstance. Usually Jack or Alma leads and Ennis follows (with possible exception of SNIT, and Ennis is obviously uncomfortable about taking the lead then). The obvious change is the last postcard - but by then it is too late.....
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Fascinating discussion as ever. But Ennis doesn't really strike you as a guy who is going to take the initiative in any circumstance. Usually Jack or Alma leads and Ennis follows (with possible exception of SNIT, and Ennis is obviously uncomfortable about taking the lead then). The obvious change is the last postcard - but by then it is too late.....
True, scribe, Ennis doesn't often stir himself to take the initative. :)
But he's pretty darn good at holding a firm line, though. When he sets the limits for how his affair with Jack will be conducted (living together ... no way! get together once in a while out in the middle of nowhere) Jack has no choice but to try to live best he can within those Ennis rules. Could be that one or the other of them made the decision about when the meetings were going to take place each year. We only see a few cards so can't really tell the pattern after the first time. Since Ennis maybe had a harder time getting time off work, could well have been that he would send the initial "let's get together on this date" kind of card at times over the years ... :s)
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Part of the problem is that a pattern of absence has already been set by the reunion - then Jack persuades Ennis to go off into the mountains with him for a few days and that becomes the paradigm - contact, brief escape, back to normal life. Ennis doesn't want to break that pattern and Jack doesn;t dare to, in case he loses Ennis entirely. So they stick to it for years and get no further, just repeat the same thing over and over.
The four years have a lot to answer for, not least the build-up of feeling that leads to the explosive reunion kiss and the rush to the motel. The intensity of that is something they recreate, presumably, on subsequent occasions - this is referred to in the ss - and that's part of what keeps them together. There is a sense in which that four-year gap sabotages any chance the relationship might have had of developing and changing.
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Part of the problem is that a pattern of absence has already been set by the reunion - then Jack persuades Ennis to go off into the mountains with him for a few days and that becomes the paradigm - contact, brief escape, back to normal life. Ennis doesn't want to break that pattern and Jack doesn;t dare to, in case he loses Ennis entirely. So they stick to it for years and get no further, just repeat the same thing over and over.
The four years have a lot to answer for, not least the build-up of feeling that leads to the explosive reunion kiss and the rush to the motel. The intensity of that is something they recreate, presumably, on subsequent occasions - this is referred to in the ss - and that's part of what keeps them together. There is a sense in which that four-year gap sabotages any chance the relationship might have had of developing and changing.
Thanks, welchwitch ... when you put it like this it helps me understand my own vague feelings about the four year hiatus. That during that time their characters become more immutable, as it were, less open to change ... which is only a natural part of the "growing up" process, anyway, imo, but in their case ends up having tragic results ... :-\\ the four year gap let Ennis evolve into a shell that was contrary to the nature it contained, in a sense.
*there are those circles again ... %&)
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True, scribe, Ennis doesn't often stir himself to take the initative. :)
But he's pretty darn good at holding a firm line, though. When he sets the limits for how his affair with Jack will be conducted (living together ... no way! get together once in a while out in the middle of nowhere) Jack has no choice but to try to live best he can within those Ennis rules. Could be that one or the other of them made the decision about when the meetings were going to take place each year. We only see a few cards so can't really tell the pattern after the first time. Since Ennis maybe had a harder time getting time off work, could well have been that he would send the initial "let's get together on this date" kind of card at times over the years ... :s)
I am going to disagree with you here MississaugaRed and here is why. I think Jack was the one to set the dates of their meetings because it was always Ennis that was quitting jobs when he couldn't get the time off. If it was he who was setting the dates he would not have to quit the job, he would in all likelyhood, already have the time off.
However, we also know that it was Ennis that told Jack he would be available in August but later changed it to November.
Hmmmmm...is this another flaw in the writing?
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True, scribe, Ennis doesn't often stir himself to take the initative. :)
But he's pretty darn good at holding a firm line, though. When he sets the limits for how his affair with Jack will be conducted (living together ... no way! get together once in a while out in the middle of nowhere) Jack has no choice but to try to live best he can within those Ennis rules. Could be that one or the other of them made the decision about when the meetings were going to take place each year. We only see a few cards so can't really tell the pattern after the first time. Since Ennis maybe had a harder time getting time off work, could well have been that he would send the initial "let's get together on this date" kind of card at times over the years ... :s)
I am going to disagree with you here MississaugaRed and here is why. I think Jack was the one to set the dates of their meetings because it was always Ennis that was quitting jobs when he couldn't get the time off. If it was he who was setting the dates he would not have to quit the job, he would in all likelyhood, already have the time off.
However, we also know that it was Ennis that told Jack he would be available in August but later changed it to November.
Hmmmmm...is this another flaw in the writing?
Don't think it's a flaw in the writing, Patriot1, I imagine they had to get back and forth to each other any number of times to firm things up. That last time, they had already said about getting together in August, before Ennis changed it, as you mentioned. :s) You'd think they had planned that before the start of that last trip, then, since obviously Ennis wouldn't have said August during that last camping trip knowing full well he couldn't make it and would have to move it to November after. For all we know, they made tenative plans each time for several upcoming visits, and firmed specifics closer to the time of each trip.
We really can't know who sent cards when for the whole of the 16 years, but I still think they both would have had a hand in picking dates, personally. Guess it would be hard in ranching to get any time off, so quitting becomes an option regardless of who is doing the first set up of dates ... :-\\
So we can agree to disagree on that one re cards, :cr) but it was a messy way to try to communicate, for darn sure .. :P phones and e-mails and I can hardly co-ordinate dinner for two couples ... :P
wouldn't write each other for four years, then spend the next 16 burning up the postage service ... all to help them live by Ennis rules once they've reunited, either way ...
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I assumed they had a sort of regular pattern of meeting three times a year - evidently you couldn't camp out in February, hence May, August and November. Presumably Jack had an easier time getting away - he worked for the family firm, for starters, and had the excuse of needing to go and visit the folks, whom Lureen never met, so he could tell what tales he liked about Lightning Flat.
There's a way in which I rather like the postcards. They are unsophisticated, and Ennis in particular seems to me to have very little to do with modern forms of communication - he's even ill at ease on the phone, and I don't think that's entirely to do with the contentof the call. They are innocuous and in a way universal - there was a time when everyone sent postcards, even locally, but far more when on holiday. And that links with the rare meetings - they have something of the holiday about them. (Won't get into Bakhtin and the carnivalesque here but it must be relevant somehow.)
The other thing is that they are fragile and ephemeral - which represents the fragility of the communications link between them when they are apart - in the age of email and instant messaging and texts the whole thing would have been massively less effective.
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Which leads me to speculate as to whatever happened to the postcard that broke the silence of 4 years (as well as the other postcards). I assume that Ennis just threw them away. I don't think he was into keepsakes -- up until the very end, that is.
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Which leads me to speculate as to whatever happened to the postcard that broke the silence of 4 years (as well as the other postcards). I assume that Ennis just threw them away. I don't think he was into keepsakes -- up until the very end, that is.
Lots of fanfics I've read have Ennis keeping the cards - and Jack finding them in much the same way as Ennis finds the shirts (although not after Ennis' death obviously) Me? Ahdunno :s) I have a sneaky suspicion that he would have kept them, based solely on the way that he caresses the first card when it arrives, treasuring it almost. But nothing is revealed in either the movie or the short story so maybe that's just the romantic in me creeping out again ???
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Lots of fanfics I've read have Ennis keeping the cards - and Jack finding them in much the same way as Ennis finds the shirts (although not after Ennis' death obviously) Me? Ahdunno :s) I have a sneaky suspicion that he would have kept them, based solely on the way that he caresses the first card when it arrives, treasuring it almost. But nothing is revealed in either the movie or the short story so maybe that's just the romantic in me creeping out again ???
NoReins, I love the romantic in you. :)
What can be more romantic that waiting for 4 d*mn years to see each other?
OOT: Can you PM me links to some of the best of the fanfics that deal with this?
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Did'nt these two ever hear of a phone? Postcards are fine, but It becomes a privacy issue at some point.Which postcard do we see in the closet at the end ? the first one or the last?
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In the ss we're told Ennis goes and buys a postcard of Bm, after the local shop-keeper orders one specially for him. I don't think any of the cards Jack sent were of BBM and Ennis sent plain ones.
As far as a phone goes, Ennis disn't apparently have one - he's using a payphone for the phone-call to Lureen, and Jack presumably couldn;t have used a phone at home or in the Newsome business to phone Ennis even if he could have done. Although my parents always hada phone - my fathr was businessman and needed one - there were plenty of people in the fifties and sixties who didn't have phones, and making long-distance calls was a hassle, even in the States, or so we found when we were there first in 1966.
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Nonetheless, both had access. Discretion. discretion, discretion. Having Alma read your postcards are not bein dicreet. Opens up too many questions and suspicions.
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Well, yeah, but would it not have been even more suspicious if Ennis had taken off for a week "fishing" without having had a postcard from Jack first (or without Alma knowing that he was sending Jack a card)? I reckon the postcard thing helped them to keep up the pretence, because the postcards never said anything other than where and when they would meet. Of course, they didn't know that Alma knew....
One question: when Ennis replies to the first postcard, does he send it to a house address or to a PO Box (or whatever the equivalent was back then)? If it was to a PO Box then maybe he had more freedom to say things to Jack than Jack did in the cards to him....like telling him about the divorce? Of course, in the short story, he calls Jack to tell him about the divorce :s)
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One question: when Ennis replies to the first postcard, does he send it to a house address or to a PO Box (or whatever the equivalent was back then)?
Ennis sends his post card to Jack's home. Jack Twist, R.F.D. 2, Childress, Texas. For those who do not know, R.F.D. stands for Rural Free Delivery.
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Thanks Patriot1 - I didn't know that
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Thanks Patriot1 - I didn't know that
My pleasure love.
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Wonderful thread! And I love what everyone has said. Great insights. Nothing to add at this time. Just wanted to say thanks to all who shared thoughts on this subject. :)
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Come back soon, FlwrChld, when you have more time ... always enjoy hearing your thoughts! ^f^
Part of the reason it came to me to even bring this subject up is that I have been spending some time around children of a friend of ours, "kids" who are now 25 and 23 respectively. And it dawned on me a few weeks ago at a dinner they attended just how much more formed they are now, than they had seemed at 18 or 19 years of age. I've know them from their early teens, and remember how they had been testing the waters over the years. Now they both seem to have found their voice, have become somehow more solid in their personalities. And less easily swayed from their opinions and convictions.
Which of course made me wonder if Jack and Ennis would have had a more likely chance of building a life together if they'd stayed together after Brokeback, so they could have grown and formed with each other instead of apart. Had a crazy notion that the 19 year old Ennis may have been a little more open to the world, more likely to adapt to what he'd discovered about himself during the next few years if he and Jack were side by side the whole time. It was not to be of course, but that's kind of where the thought came from, if anyone had wondered ... :P Sometimes the mulling takes you to odd places ... ::)
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Come back soon, FlwrChld, when you have more time ... always enjoy hearing your thoughts! ^f^
Part of the reason it came to me to even bring this subject up is that I have been spending some time around children of a friend of ours, "kids" who are now 25 and 23 respectively. And it dawned on me a few weeks ago at a dinner they attended just how much more formed they are now, than they had seemed at 18 or 19 years of age. I've know them from their early teens, and remember how they had been testing the waters over the years. Now they both seem to have found their voice, have become somehow more solid in their personalities. And less easily swayed from their opinions and convictions.
Which of course made me wonder if Jack and Ennis would have had a more likely chance of building a life together if they'd stayed together after Brokeback, so they could have grown and formed with each other instead of apart. Had a crazy notion that the 19 year old Ennis may have been a little more open to the world, more likely to adapt to what he'd discovered about himself during the next few years if he and Jack were side by side the whole time. It was not to be of course, but that's kind of where the thought came from, if anyone had wondered ... :P Sometimes the mulling takes you to odd places ... ::)
Very nicely put, MississaugaRed. I do think that at that age, 4 years mean a lot -- much more, I think, than in other age brackets. I do think this is the time when a lot of "kids" find their own voice and solidify.
At least this seems true, drawing from my own experience.
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I like where the mulling takes us MissRed! And if I may reference the SS for a moment, in the motel during the reunion Ennis says two things that may support your speculation.
First: "You know, I was sittin up here all that time trying to figure out if I was-?.."
Which tells you he at least contemplated the possibility of realizing his sexuality.
Then regarding his breakdown at the end of that first summer: "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Perhaps if he had realized earlier, something might have been different? No way to know but it kind of goes to your point about being more fluid/less set at the younger age, etc.
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Then regarding his breakdown at the end of that first summer: "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Perhaps if he had realized earlier, something might have been different? No way to know but it kind of goes to your point about being more fluid/less set at the younger age, etc.
You know, you might just be right....I remember thinking just that when I first read that line in the SS. Can't believe I'd forgotten about it either - seeing as how it's in my signature ::)
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I am new to this forum, well I've been reading your posts for months now just never got the nerve to actually write something. I am so glad to have found other BBM lovers like me! Anyway this has been bugging me since I first saw the movie. Why did Jack wait 4 years to contact Ennis? It seems to me that at the end of the summer he was ready to bundle Ennis into his truck and head on up to Lightning Flat. But then he lets him leave. Just doesn't make sense to me. I hope this hasn't been discusses elswhere already. Any thoughts?
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Two interesting points spring to mind One, was Ennis really thinking about Jack during the early stages of his marriage - he implies he ttok a year after parting from Jack to work out why he's reacted as he had, and this wqs when he was getting maried, setting up home, getting a job, seeing the birth of his first daughter, etc. Jack must have made a considerable impact if Ennis thought about him with all these distractions.
Two, even that early on Ennis made a negative decision - it was too late before they ever started. This is so typically Ennis.
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I like where the mulling takes us MissRed! And if I may reference the SS for a moment, in the motel during the reunion Ennis says two things that may support your speculation.
First: "You know, I was sittin up here all that time trying to figure out if I was-?.."
Which tells you he at least contemplated the possibility of realizing his sexuality.
Then regarding his breakdown at the end of that first summer: "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Perhaps if he had realized earlier, something might have been different? No way to know but it kind of goes to your point about being more fluid/less set at the younger age, etc.
Good points, FlwrChld. And I hadn't thought of those words from the ss in relation to this before, thank you!
Always figured these lines were keep out of the film version for the very purpose of keeping us guessing more about what was in Ennis's head; all the turmoil LM/DO/AL decided not to spell out for us when we're given the chance to read it instead from body language and eyes.
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Two interesting points spring to mind One, was Ennis really thinking about Jack during the early stages of his marriage - he implies he ttok a year after parting from Jack to work out why he's reacted as he had, and this wqs when he was getting maried, setting up home, getting a job, seeing the birth of his first daughter, etc. Jack must have made a considerable impact if Ennis thought about him with all these distractions.
Two, even that early on Ennis made a negative decision - it was too late before they ever started. This is so typically Ennis.
Path of least resistance? A stubborn determinaton to keep to the path he's set for himself, right or wrong? The man is a font on contradictions, no question.
Just to keep seeing Jack after the reunion, that likely took all the will and strength Ennis possessed, when it went so against the grain of the life he'd tried to build after Brokeback. Speaks to the power of his love for Jack, that Ennis can't fully deny it in spite of his inclination to not upset the status quo. He refuses to let Jack slip completely away from him again, when it would have been easier for him if he had. So in a sense his stubbornness keeps them together as much as it keeps them apart.
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Good point MissRed! It takes two and he kept coming back. It probably would've been easier not to...
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Hello camellia . I this somewhat related to the other thread that deals with any damage done to their relationship after 4 years. You ask here why Jack had to wait for 4 years before contacting Ennis.
I think when they parted in 63, Ennis did not seem to have expressed interest in ever meeting again. And he did say that what they had between them was just for that summer.
Jack did return to Signal the next summer, hoping that Ennis had changed his mind. So you see that at least Jack tried to create a situation when he and Ennis could be together again.
Knowing about Ennis's intention to marry would have discouraged Jack. Also, the fact that Ennis did not show up the next summer must have confirmed to him that Ennis did proceed with the marriage.
Finally, Jack moved to Texas. Distance made it more difficult for them to try to get in touch. And then there was Lureen, marriage, and the baby. At that point, it was a minor miracle that they did ever get to see each other again...
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Ennis is a bit like a body moving in a vacuum - once set on one path it keeps on till it meets another. Jack was the object that deflected Ennis from his path; you could say Ennis had very little choice but to be deflected.
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Part of the reason it came to me to even bring this subject up is that I have been spending some time around children of a friend of ours, "kids" who are now 25 and 23 respectively. And it dawned on me a few weeks ago at a dinner they attended just how much more formed they are now, than they had seemed at 18 or 19 years of age. I've know them from their early teens, and remember how they had been testing the waters over the years. Now they both seem to have found their voice, have become somehow more solid in their personalities. And less easily swayed from their opinions and convictions.
Hi MissisaugaRed, :) Thank you for bringing up this really interesting thread. Your quote above got me thinking :s)
And I agree with you that at 18 or 19 kids still seem kids and at 23 and 25 they have turned into fully formed adult men. But I think the event that really changes you forever - and pretty instantly IMO is that of becoming a parent. It doesn't matter how old you are, you see life differently, at least I did. I was married at 20, and was still very naive, malleable still. As was my husband (although he was 21). I had my first child at 24 and then everything changed. Apart from discovering an all consuming love the power of which I never thought possible, and which only increases with the passing years, I also had the sense that I was actually not an island. I was in a chain of life. I was going to age and die the same as my parents and grandparents. I would be replaced by the next generation. Something that I was now also responsible to help nurture. I don't know when this realisation would have happened had I not had children, it obviously does, maybe at different ages for different people (I can only speak for myself)but I think that having children probably brings this realisation instantly.
I think that that may have been what made Jack contact Ennis at that point. He had become a parent. His view of the world changed. He realized that he only had one life and wanted to live it fully or at least not live it in regret that he didn't try.
For Ennis I think that the realization that he was responsible for these two baby girls that he loved with all his heart made him put himself and his own desires on a back footing to his responsibilities toward them. Along with his deep seated fear and denial of his true emotion towards Jack this made his choice for him. To him the problems were insurmountable. I'm not saying that Jack didn't feel responsible towards Bobby and I think that if Ennis had agreed to live with Jack, Bobby would have been in Jack's plans. It's just that Jack being more the optimistic probably felt that he could live his life and still be a responsible and loving parent to Bobby. Also you have to remember that Lureen came from a well off family, if Jack did not live in the same house as them, Lureen and Bobby would not starve or not have the money to pay the bills, the way that it would have been for Alma had Ennis left. So when Ennis said those words "too late then by a long, long while." it probably was for him. Because in that first year he had become a parent. He was no longer only responsible for himself.
You know, that's another reason that I think that Ennis would never have been the one to contact Jack. It was too late very quickly for Ennis. Almost immediately after coming down from the mountain. They came down at the end of August. Ennis was married to Alma in December, and she was pregnant by mid January, with Alma Jr. arriving in September.
Interestingly enough he became a parent at exactly the time he says he realised that he should never have let Jack out of his sights, and about three years after that Jack becomes a parent and soon after must have had the same realisation because it is at that time that he contacts Ennis..... so... I now think that it was the act of becoming a parent that set them the most, but with opposite results.....even more than the passing of time...... Although without the passing of time they wouldn't have become parents...... Oh stop now Rosie pleeease!
The timing in this story just never works out for our boys does it. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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But I think the event that really changes you forever - and pretty instantly IMO is that of becoming a parent.
... I also had the sense that I was actually not an island. I was in a chain of life. ....
I think that that may have been what made Jack contact Ennis at that point. He had become a parent. His view of the world changed. He realized that he only had one life and wanted to live it fully or at least not live it in regret that he didn't try.
For Ennis I think that the realization that he was responsible for these two baby girls that he loved with all his heart made him put himself and his own desires on a back footing to his responsibilities toward them. Along with his deep seated fear and denial of his true emotion towards Jack this made his choice for him. To him the problems were insurmountable.
Interestingly enough he became a parent at exactly the time he says he realised that he should never have let Jack out of his sights, and about three years after that Jack becomes a parent and soon after must have had the same realisation because it is at that time that he contacts Ennis..... so... I now think that it was the act of becoming a parent that set them the most, but with opposite results.....even more than the passing of time...... Although without the passing of time they wouldn't have become parents...... Oh stop now Rosie pleeease!
The timing in this story just never works out for our boys does it. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Thank you for that very thoughtful post, Rosie! ^f^ (flowers for Rosie!)
Undoubtedl, parenthood had a profound effect on the boys maturity, as you say. :)
And how interesting that this same event might have spurred them into two different mind sets. Even in this they diverge. Jack as you point out being inspired to seek more for his own life (because he's wishing for Bobby all those things he himself never had?) and Ennis making the girl's his anchor into the life he was existing in.
Excellent evaluation, Rosie, really appreciate you sharing this! Much to ponder. O0
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More wonderful posts! And Rosie, you had some great insights. So true about the timing never working out for them too. :(
And you're both right about another thing. It seems that Ennis and Jack almost always went in opposite directions with the way they each responded to the same events. Jack the Dreamer and Ennis the excessively pragmatic....poor Ennis; at least Jack had the dream...
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More wonderful posts! And Rosie, you had some great insights. So true about the timing never working out for them too. :(
And you're both right about another thing. It seems that Ennis and Jack almost always went in opposite directions with the way they each responded to the same events. Jack the Dreamer and Ennis the excessively pragmatic....poor Ennis; at least Jack had the dream...
FlwrChld, you make me :\'(
Poor both boys ... :( I don't know what would be worse ... fearing ever to dream or daring to dream only to have the dream ground into dust ... :(
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More wonderful posts! And Rosie, you had some great insights. So true about the timing never working out for them too. :(
And you're both right about another thing. It seems that Ennis and Jack almost always went in opposite directions with the way they each responded to the same events. Jack the Dreamer and Ennis the excessively pragmatic....poor Ennis; at least Jack had the dream...
FlwrChld, you make me :\'(
Poor both boys ... :( I don't know what would be worse ... fearing ever to dream or daring to dream only to have the dream ground into dust ... :(
This is why we grieve for both of them. :(
MissRed, you hit 1,100! :)
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Jack the Dreamer and Ennis the excessively pragmatic....poor Ennis; at least Jack had the dream...
FlwrChld, you make me :\'(
Poor both boys ... :( I don't know what would be worse ... fearing ever to dream or daring to dream only to have the dream ground into dust ... :(
This is why we grieve for both of them. :(
So true, FlwrChld! :^^)
MissRed, you hit 1,100! :)
How did that happen?? ??? OMG ... I'm turning into you! ;D ;D
Not that that would be a bad thing ... ^f^
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How did that happen?? ??? OMG ... I'm turning into you! ;D ;D
Not that that would be a bad thing ... ^f^
;D ;D ;D
Sorry for being OT. :-X
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How did that happen?? ??? OMG ... I'm turning into you! ;D ;D
Not that that would be a bad thing ... ^f^
;D ;D ;D
Sorry for being OT. :-X
It's okay, sweetie, I forgive you. :)
How about we make it into T. See, if the boys had been better LaShawners, maybe they could have worked out their problems early on. But instead, they both internalized, and ended up hurting themselves and each other.
See ... not OT anymore. :) Communication is the key ... ;)
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I am new to this forum, well I've been reading your posts for months now just never got the nerve to actually write something. I am so glad to have found other BBM lovers like me! Anyway this has been bugging me since I first saw the movie. Why did Jack wait 4 years to contact Ennis? It seems to me that at the end of the summer he was ready to bundle Ennis into his truck and head on up to Lightning Flat. But then he lets him leave. Just doesn't make sense to me. I hope this hasn't been discusses elswhere already. Any thoughts?
:h) Camellia
I've just said on another thread...four years damn/four year damage that I think Jack waited four years because that's when he became a parent and he saw his life differently then and decided to try and live his life the way he wanted. I'm not going to repeat myself here... and I don't think I'm necessarily right...I just didn't want you to think that I was ignoring your first post! - especially after you took the courage to post in the first place. . ^f^ Keep posting! O0
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MissRed, you're the master!! O0
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It's interesting that we see Jack as the dynamic one in the relationship, but he does nothing to try to prevent Ennis from leaving without even trying to suggst any way of maintaining contact; in the same way he drives away immediately after the divorce scene, without making any attempt to persuade Ennis, suggest he might stick around for a couple of days , or go up to Lightning Flat now and come back when the girls are gone - he doesn't exactly fight hard to keep Ennis at times.
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That's a point, welshwitch ... I have to say, I've thought on it some, why Jack didn't push more, because you really wish one little thing could have changed that would have made the story play out differently. :(
I'm not sure (at the end of Brokeback summer anyway) if they'd reached a place where either man would have been comfortable acknowledging that what was between them was more then a passing physical connection born of loneliness and convenience. To admit more right then would have opened a whole dynamic not easy in Wyoming 1963, I would think. Maybe if there leaving hadn't been so abrupt, one or the other could have eased into the whole "what are we doing about the future" conversations.
Could also be Jack had a good understanding of Ennis's make up; that pushing him was a sure way to have Ennis back off completely or lash out. Ennis did so on Brokeback (that punch); shot down Jack's dream pretty firmly when ranching up together was tentatively suggested; certainly when Jack suggests off-the-cuff that Ennis try someplace new like Texas he gets sneered at; and we see how Ennis breaks down at the end when Jack's done with pretending that things are fine the way they were. So, confronting Ennis Del Mar too strongly seems to be a sure way to get rough words or a fist thrown your way .... :s)
Why didn't he stick around or push at that cursed divorce scene? Maybe because the girl's were right there so having it out right away wouldn't sit well with Ennis? But really, at that moment, I think ('cause I'm a Jack fan, yeah, I know!) that maybe the hurt and humiliation was just too deep for him to do anything other than get the heck out of there as fast as he could, before he broke down or said something to end the relationship permenant.
I know, I'm making excuses .... ::) but you're really set out the worms for me on this one, ww. :-
You know, Jack had set himself up with a comfortable life during those four years apart. He still risked a lot by taking off to be with Ennis a couple of times a year, and driving hundreds of miles for the privilege of having whatever piece of Ennis's life the man would share. Maybe that was all the fight Jack had in him???
oh, ahdunno!! ^*() circles, always circles ...
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Could also be Jack had a good understanding of Ennis's make up; that pushing him was a sure way to have Ennis back off completely or lash out. Ennis did so on Brokeback (that punch); shot down Jack's dream pretty firmly when ranching up together was tentatively suggested; certainly when Jack suggests off-the-cuff that Ennis try someplace new like Texas he gets sneered at; and we see how Ennis breaks down at the end when Jack's done with pretending that things are fine the way they were. So, confronting Ennis Del Mar too strongly seems to be a sure way to get rough words or a fist thrown your way .... :s)
Why didn't he stick around or push at that cursed divorce scene? Maybe because the girl's were right there so having it out right away wouldn't sit well with Ennis? But really, at that moment, I think ('cause I'm a Jack fan, yeah, I know!) that maybe the hurt and humiliation was just too deep for him to do anything other than get the heck out of there as fast as he could, before he broke down or said something to end the relationship permenant.
I know, I'm making excuses .... ::) but you're really set out the worms for me on this one, ww. :-
You know, Jack had set himself up with a comfortable life during those four years apart. He still risked a lot by taking off to be with Ennis a couple of times a year, and driving hundreds of miles for the privilege of having whatever piece of Ennis's life the man would share. Maybe that was all the fight Jack had in him???
oh, ahdunno!! ^*() circles, always circles ...
Oh, I think you're right Missis..the slightly raised eyes when Jack says "gonna do this again next summer" is Jack willing Ennis to say "Yes". That is as much as he dare do I guess. Telling Ennis he wants him to without saying it. If Ennis had said "I don't know what I'm gonna do yet" Jack would have maybe seen an opening, but Ennis doesn't, he says he's going to marry Alma. Whats the point of Jack trying to say something then ? He's just been punched remember, he knows Ennis is on the edge of his nerves and it's not the time to push too hard. I've said before I think that Jack hoped that if Ennis was given a year (till the next summer) he may have had time to think about things. If they parted on a row, things could be said that would stop that happening, and right now, trying to talk to Ennis is only going to end bad. I know that's assuming that Jack already knew he loved Ennis, but I've always thought that he did know. Even after FNIT Ennis had to be left on his own to think about things before SNIT. If Jack had said anything more in the morning than "see you for supper" it would have been disastrous. Well I think Jack thinks the same here. I think Jack would love to fight harder and he would if it was someone else...but Jack knows his man.
On the mountain after the reunion, it's the same thing. I think that he just KNOWS that Ennis is not a man to be pushed. He's just glad to know that he is going to be seeing Ennis again and privately thinks that over time, maybe Ennis will change his mind. He's not going to risk a row or being all or nothing now, because he probably knows it's the nothing he would get. Jack's not a coward, he just knows his man.
After the divorce scene, I think Jack is hurt SOOO BAAAD that he is going to burst into tears if he stays a minute longer. The girls are there, the way Ennis looks at the truck on the road, everything is pointing to the fact that he was going to get nowhere at that time. All the times before Jack has been able to convince himself that maybe Ennis' circumstances will change and they'll be together if he waits long enough. This time even he can see that it's not events but Ennis himself who is stopping his dream from happening. He is stunned at the realization. He is also humiliated. And I think he's allowed to be a bit angry don't you? He Just had to get away. He's not going to cry in front of Ennis, and he knows the tears are there. He's not going to beg. He jumps back in the truck and has put miles between them before he calms down himself. He needs time to think about this. He doesn't want to talk to Ennis until he's thought it through himself, because he knows that as always one wrong word from him and who knows what would happen.
By the time he see's Ennis again he's decided that, risking taking off a couple of times a year and driving hundreds of miles for the privilege of sharing whatever part of Ennis that Ennis was prepared to give was going to have to be enough. But I think the optimist in him always hoped that one day Ennis would come round. It wasn't that Jack couldn't fight, he just knew that he'd lose if he did. He was always, waiting, waiting, waiting. He didn't have to tell Ennis any of this. Ennis wasn't stupid, he already knew. He wouldn't mention it, but he knew alright. That's why at the end when Jack finally explodes and does tell Ennis some truths Ennis is the one to be stunned. As always only IMO. :)
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Can't say nothin'. You guys said it all. :\'( :\'(
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True, but in that case why wait four years? Why not give up altogether - because he can't? Or try earlier -is he too busy rodeoing and trying to pick up men in bars and getting married and so on?
Why then? Nothing has happened between them since that unsatidfactory parting and Jack has heard nothing from or presumably of Ennis in the meantime. Why does Jack assume it would be worth trying again now? The wording of the postcard is very bland, but it would have to be if other people could see it - it is clearly meant to suggest two old buddies getting together for a casual drink, which would be unlikely to scare Ennis off even if he were no longer willing to get involved with Jack.
In four years all sorts of things could have happened to Ennis, though Jack must assume they haven't since he finds ( somehow) that he's still where he was and makes a move. But why then?
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It's the LaShawners in us, FlwrChld ... you start with one thing, it leads to the next ... :P
I think maybe Jack did set the tone on how he was going to deal with being in a relationship with Ennis, right from the start. He offers, then reads just how much Ennis is ready to take, or give back in return.
Jack leaves Brokeback, gives Ennis a chance to agree to a way to get together again, doesn't get an enthusiastic response, backs off ... for four years. Can't help himself, loneliness too much, sends his postcard, a cry in the dark, this time gets a "you bet", so comes running; At the reunion ... once he gets the VERY enthusiastic response from Ennis he hadn't been expecting, leaps back in, and pushes until Ennis pushes back with "told you it ain't going to be that why". He stays the course, waiting for something to tell him things might have changed ... like the divorce .. :( you know how well that went ...
Ennis sets the boundaries. Jack lives within them, testing the limits on occasion, to see if they may have moved.
as always, just IMO. ;)
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All that makes perfect sense; I just don't see why four years. They're quite young and four years is a long time to leave any relationship in abeyance and expect it to survive unchanged.
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I agree MissRed. And remember, he didn't wait four years. He went back to Brokeback the next summer just as he said he would. When Ennis wasn't there and Aguirre kicked him out, he took himself off to Texas and tried to get on with his life. But marriage and a kid, instead of filling the void, just made him miss what he really wanted that much more. So he took a deep breath and climbed out on that limb again.
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Yep, I think that's it FlwrChild. He had told Ennis where he would be the following summer. When Ennis didn't show up, Jack thought maybe he should let things be....and he tries first to get involved with another man (Jimbo) then to be a good husband and father. But when Lureen's father shuts him out just after his own son's birth, the loneliness that he feels deep down gets too much and he decides to try to contact Ennis. No-one else could scratch the itch that Jack had - only Ennis.
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I agree MissRed. And remember, he didn't wait four years. He went back to Brokeback the next summer just as he said he would. When Ennis wasn't there and Aguirre kicked him out, he took himself off to Texas and tried to get on with his life. But marriage and a kid, instead of filling the void, just made him miss what he really wanted that much more. So he took a deep breath and climbed out on that limb again.
I'd forgotten that! Thank you, FlwrChld. He did make a effort before the four years ... that just makes my heart melt, now that you've pointed that out! <^(
All that makes perfect sense; I just don't see why four years. They're quite young and four years is a long time to leave any relationship in abeyance and expect it to survive unchanged.
Yep, four years is a very long time, you're right, welchwitch. Don't know why it took that long for them to actually get together again. They were both trying to move on with lives during that time, Ennis right way, Jack once he saw Ennis hadn't come back to Brokeback. Maybe it was just one of those things. Jack got to the point where he was unhappy with where his life had taken him, started thinking on the one time and the one person he was happy with, and acted on the impulse to seek out his friend, see what might or might not be there. Just happened to take four years for him to get to that point, where he'd take the risk again. :(
As much as I believe they were both in love with each other when they came down off that mountain, I don't imagine that they thought of each other every minute during those four years. Life provides distractions. It would be in the quiet - at night with a wife you love but aren't in love with, or in the house with a wife and child and in-laws where you're the outsider ... those would be times (I think) when they would each yearn on the other the most ... :-\\
Like NoReins says, no one but Ennis would ever really do it for Jack.
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All that makes perfect sense; I just don't see why four years. They're quite young and four years is a long time to leave any relationship in abeyance and expect it to survive unchanged.
The fact that it was four years came down to Jack because Ennis would never have contacted him. Jack had gone back to the mountain the following year and Ennis wasn't there. He must have assumed that Ennis was true to his word and had married Alma. There was no point in him hanging around then. So he went to Texas and tried to forget Ennis. He'd met Lureen, had Bobby and started to realize with the birth of his child that time was passing. He wasn't a kid anymore. What did he want from life? During the three years between when he last went to the mountain, now, he had maybe thought that he could find something to match the feeling he had with Ennis. The change in him maturing with the marriage and birth of his child made him realize time was passing and he hadn't found anything to match the love he felt for Ennis. He contacted Ennis out of desperation. I don't think he expected the relationship to survive unchanged. He was older, he was thinking about his future and he wanted a life that was truer to what he really wanted and that obviously wasn't with Lureen or he wouldn't have been thinking about Ennis. I think he contacted Ennis first exactly because four years had passed and he didn't want to waste anymore time. It took him realizing how short life was to become desperate enough to do it. When you're young you always think that you have all the time in the world, he was old enough and mature enough now to know that he didn't. He certainly did want the relationship to change, he wanted it to be a mature one, an honest one, one where he committed himself to Ennis and Ennis committed himself to him. He just had to hope that Ennis loved him and would want it too. He couldn't know that without contacting him to find out. In between the renunion kiss and driving to the motel, he must have thought all his dreams may come true afterall...Poor Jack.. :\'(
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In between the reunion kiss and driving to the motel, he must have thought all his dreams may come true afterall...Poor Jack.. :\'(
Maybe even the whole time they were at the motel too, at least until Ennis said he was stuck with what he had.
:\'( :\'(
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Thank you, tpe and Rosie .. ^f^ Yes, it's the missed opportunities and the obstacles that get added in the wake of those that make these four years apart so very sad for me ...
We've all been profoundly moved by the story of Jack and Ennis, it's become impossible not to explore every aspect of their lives that we can, just to keep them close to us a little longer. That's how come for me to end up here ;) ... with people like all of you willing to discuss and consider, even when we see things differently; maybe especially then, since it opens our eyes to other visions. :)
So true, MissRed. I love all this discussion. It makes Ennis and Jack even more and more rich characters, because of the range of feelings and interpretations that we have about them. I love "keeping them close to us a little longer" too. I'm certainly not finished with them! The more these discussions go on, the more I am realizing my Ennis-ness. That was not outright obvious to me when I first saw the film, or even when I saw it again and again. Any of us who are more Ennis and Jack could well stand to keep looking...
As to the four years...I see, as many have already said, that those years put Ennis even tighter in his shell. But it was having children that tied him even tighter to the life he felt stuck with. If he hadn't gotten married and had children -- but that's a big "if" -- he could well have allowed the shell to soften some and realized the sweet life was worth a try, even in 1963, even given his horrible childhood experience.
kathy
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Why would the punch stop Ennis from writing to Jack? In the letter he could have apologized for the punch. And besides, the punch didn't seem to matter when the two boys were saying goodbye by Jack's truck. Otherwise Ennis might have apologized right then and there. Heaven knows Jack deserved an apology.
I don't think the punch was a serious problem, either. They spent pretty much time together between the punch and finally parting by the truck. I always thought Ennis bring up the punch in the motel room was kind of a joke. He didn't really figure Jack was sore from that punch (and that punch sure didn't stop Jack from still wanting Ennis). I think Ennis brought up the punch as kind of a little inside-joke, an intimacy almost, a meaningful moment from their past. Even the way he says it, is so...almost sexy, with that afterglow smile...
kathy
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I assumed they had a sort of regular pattern of meeting three times a year - evidently you couldn't camp out in February, hence May, August and November. Presumably Jack had an easier time getting away - he worked for the family firm, for starters, and had the excuse of needing to go and visit the folks, whom Lureen never met, so he could tell what tales he liked about Lightning Flat.
There's a way in which I rather like the postcards. They are unsophisticated, and Ennis in particular seems to me to have very little to do with modern forms of communication - he's even ill at ease on the phone, and I don't think that's entirely to do with the contentof the call. They are innocuous and in a way universal - there was a time when everyone sent postcards, even locally, but far more when on holiday. And that links with the rare meetings - they have something of the holiday about them. (Won't get into Bakhtin and the carnivalesque here but it must be relevant somehow.)
The other thing is that they are fragile and ephemeral - which represents the fragility of the communications link between them when they are apart - in the age of email and instant messaging and texts the whole thing would have been massively less effective.
I agree. I wouldn't have it any other way than the postcards. 1963, after all. I like how life was so much slower back then. Long-distance calling was expensive, common folk didn't jump on airplanes at the drop of a hat, stores weren't open 24/7. You could sit on the porch for about three days and nothing much would have happened... You could go away for a week in the mountains...
Just a two-cents post.
kathy
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Can't say nothin'. You guys said it all. :\'( :\'(
What she said. This is a fascinating discussion, and y'all have said some amazingly insightful things.
kathy :c)
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I don't think the punch was a serious problem, either. They spent pretty much time together between the punch and finally parting by the truck. I always thought Ennis bring up the punch in the motel room was kind of a joke. He didn't really figure Jack was sore from that punch (and that punch sure didn't stop Jack from still wanting Ennis). I think Ennis brought up the punch as kind of a little inside-joke, an intimacy almost, a meaningful moment from their past. Even the way he says it, is so...almost sexy, with that afterglow smile...
kathy
It could be that Ennis brought up the punch as a gesture of wistfulness and affection. IN a sense, that punch can be likened to a kiss. It was just as emblematic, as it was sealed with blood.
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I don't think the punch was a serious problem, either. They spent pretty much time together between the punch and finally parting by the truck. I always thought Ennis bring up the punch in the motel room was kind of a joke. He didn't really figure Jack was sore from that punch (and that punch sure didn't stop Jack from still wanting Ennis). I think Ennis brought up the punch as kind of a little inside-joke, an intimacy almost, a meaningful moment from their past. Even the way he says it, is so...almost sexy, with that afterglow smile...
kathy
It could be that Ennis brought up the punch as a gesture of wistfulness and affection. IN a sense, that punch can be likened to a kiss. It was just as emblematic, as it was sealed with blood.
I thought that he brought it up as a way of saying sorry for it. "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you were sore about that punch" (can't be sure they're the exact words at the moment, but they're pretty close if not) meaning when I wondered why you hadn't contacted me, I thought it was because I hit you when I shouldn't have, and you're angry about it. (I shouldn't have hit you, I loved you)
Because I hit you, you thought that meant that I didn't feel for you the way I really did. A bit like an admission - in the back to front, never saying what they mean way they have of communicating together. :i
Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back... :s) What do you think?
Sorry if I'm a little *o) I was just thinking about the above posts! (Thinking out loud again!)
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Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back... :s) What do you think?
Could be, Rosie, could be ... :-\\
You all have shared some great thoughts about that punch, and what it might or might not have meant to both men during that time apart. Hadn't thought on it before, so thank you! (tpe ... likening it to a kiss ... <^( )
Now I'm considering ... maybe Ennis was half joking, half serious? He himself (judging by both movie and story) didn't understand all that was inside him that made him throw that punch in the first place. ss said it took him a year to figure out why he'd got sick after, and that was tied to the feelings behind the punch.
So, if it took Ennis a long time to figure out what that punch really meant, maybe he was worried that Jack hadn't ever figured it out, that Jack hadn't been able to tell that there were love-feelings not just mad-feelings behind it. Don't think Ennis trusted his own abilities to sort out his emotions; maybe he couldn't credit Jack with being able to figure them out either, so was a little worried that Jack had gone away thinking Ennis was just angry at him, that Ennis didn't want to see him again.
I think Ennis maybe did stew on that punch much more than Jack did during those four years. Ennis may have instinctively known that Jack loved him, but couldn't be sure that Jack knew Ennis felt the same, since Ennis wasn't great at expressing himself ...
Sorry ... I'm babbling like an ^*() ^*()
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I thought that he brought it up as a way of saying sorry for it. "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you were sore about that punch" (can't be sure they're the exact words at the moment, but they're pretty close if not) meaning when I wondered why you hadn't contacted me, I thought it was because I hit you when I shouldn't have, and you're angry about it. (I shouldn't have hit you, I loved you)
Because I hit you, you thought that meant that I didn't feel for you the way I really did. A bit like an admission - in the back to front, never saying what they mean way they have of communicating together. :i
Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back... :s) What do you think?
Sorry if I'm a little *o) I was just thinking about the above posts! (Thinking out loud again!)
Interesting, and I think I follow your thoughts here.
I do think that part of Ennis's anger before they came down was rooted in his getting himself into a situation where he was deeply in love with Jack and that Ennis knew that Jack knew this. I think this is also part of the reason why he resisted Jack's hints of meeting again in the future. Ennis though his love had become all to obvious, and that his desire for Jack confirmed it all within himself.
I do think Jack knew that was bothering Ennis then. And as hinted at in many of the movie reviews and articles, Ennis instinctively reacted violently to something he could not cope with at that time: his desire and love for Jack.
4 years is a long time at that age. The violence of the punch is mirrored in the violence of the reunion kiss. As I had hinted in the above post, they serve as bookends to the 4 years of separation.
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Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back... :s) What do you think?
Could be, Rosie, could be ... :-\\
You all have shared some great thoughts about that punch, and what it might or might not have meant to both men during that time apart. Hadn't thought on it before, so thank you! (tpe ... likening it to a kiss ... <^( )
Now I'm considering ... maybe Ennis was half joking, half serious? He himself (judging by both movie and story) didn't understand all that was inside him that made him throw that punch in the first place. ss said it took him a year to figure out why he'd got sick after, and that was tied to the feelings behind the punch.
So, if it took Ennis a long time to figure out what that punch really meant, maybe he was worried that Jack hadn't ever figured it out, that Jack hadn't been able to tell that there were love-feelings not just mad-feelings behind it. Don't think Ennis trusted his own abilities to sort out his emotions; maybe he couldn't credit Jack with being able to figure them out either, so was a little worried that Jack had gone away thinking Ennis was just angry at him, that Ennis didn't want to see him again.
I think Ennis maybe did stew on that punch much more than Jack did during those four years. Ennis may have instinctively known that Jack loved him, but couldn't be sure that Jack knew Ennis felt the same, since Ennis wasn't great at expressing himself ...
Sorry ... I'm babbling like an ^*() ^*()
You're not babbling, MississaugaRed. I think we are thinking along the same lines here, though some conclusions may differ. :)
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Sorry ... I'm babbling like an ^*() ^*()
Not to me you're not, I like a babble myself! :i
Thanks to you and to tpe, loved both of your answers......more to think about. Don't we just love it? :)
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[Don't we just love it? :)
Indeed we do. The 4 years be d*mned. :)
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[Don't we just love it? :)
Indeed we do. The 4 years be d*mned. :)
Amen! O0
I thought that he brought it up as a way of saying sorry for it. "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you were sore about that punch" (can't be sure they're the exact words at the moment, but they're pretty close if not) meaning when I wondered why you hadn't contacted me, I thought it was because I hit you when I shouldn't have, and you're angry about it. (I shouldn't have hit you, I loved you)
Because I hit you, you thought that meant that I didn't feel for you the way I really did. A bit like an admission - in the back to front, never saying what they mean way they have of communicating together. :i
Also if Ennis wondered if the punch was the reason that Jack hadn't contacted him, it wasn't because he thought that Jack didn't love him, he doesn't say "didn't think I'd hear from you again" full stop, as though he thought that he was of no interest to Jack, it shows he must have thought why havent' I heard from him when I know that he had strong feelings for me. If this is so, then Ennis is telling Jack that he knew Jack loved him on the mountain and probably that he loved him back... :s) What do you think?
Sorry if I'm a little *o) I was just thinking about the above posts! (Thinking out loud again!)
Interesting, and I think I follow your thoughts here.
I do think that part of Ennis's anger before they came down was rooted in his getting himself into a situation where he was deeply in love with Jack and that Ennis knew that Jack knew this. I think this is also part of the reason why he resisted Jack's hints of meeting again in the future. Ennis though his love had become all to obvious, and that his desire for Jack confirmed it all within himself.
I do think Jack knew that was bothering Ennis then. And as hinted at in many of the movie reviews and articles, Ennis instinctively reacted violently to something he could not cope with at that time: his desire and love for Jack.
4 years is a long time at that age. The violence of the punch is mirrored in the violence of the reunion kiss. As I had hinted in the above post, they serve as bookends to the 4 years of separation.
I like the direction you're going, tpe! Did Ennis think that Jack knew, or didn't he?? Your conclusion absolutely makes sense, too. Isn't it great how similar roads can lead us to slightly different places? And odds are, next time I view BBM, I may be inclined to see it your way.
BBM is never the same to me twice, becasue each time I find I'm colouring it with various combinations of hues I've picked up from ej posters. Keeps it fresh, and I love that. <^(
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Hello MississaugaRed. I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew. Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment.
Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time. That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.
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Hello MississaugaRed. I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew. Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment.
Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time. That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.
That is beautifully put, tpe, and I couldn't agree more. :\'( Ennis was such a private person, any sense that he was exposing parts of himself to someone would have painful.
And heroic is indeed the perfect way to desribe Ennis's efforts during those four eyes apart. A brave, battered hero, warring against his own desires; but when Jack contacts him after four years, he finds he can't hold ground against his desires and Jack's, both ... the reunion kiss is at least a temporary surrender.
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I like the direction you're going, tpe! Did Ennis think that Jack knew, or didn't he?? Your conclusion absolutely makes sense, too. Isn't it great how similar roads can lead us to slightly different places? And odds are, next time I view BBM, I may be inclined to see it your way.
BBM is never the same to me twice, becasue each time I find I'm colouring it with various combinations of hues I've picked up from ej posters. Keeps it fresh, and I love that. <^(
Exactly MissRed! I love the way the movie and ennisjack.com continue to feed each other! <^(
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Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time. That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.
Agreed tpe!
Wonderful posts! Thanks for sharing everyone!
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Hello MississaugaRed. I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew. Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment.
Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time. That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.
That is beautifully put, tpe, and I couldn't agree more. :\'( Ennis was such a private person, any sense that he was exposing parts of himself to someone would have painful.
And heroic is indeed the perfect way to desribe Ennis's efforts during those four eyes apart. A brave, battered hero, warring against his own desires; but when Jack contacts him after four years, he finds he can't hold ground against his desires and Jack's, both ... the reunion kiss is at least a temporary surrender.
Yes, this is exactly the way I see it.
He abandons himself to love at that very moment.
Im am sure FlwrChild will agree with me here: beautifully said.
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Seems regardless of our thoughts and conclusion of events before and after, the reunion kiss finds us always on common ground; it is iconic of the love, passion and committment that was and will be the corner stone of their lives. <^(
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Seems regardless of our thoughts and conclusion of events before and after, the reunion kiss finds us always on common ground; it is iconic of the love, passion and committment that was and will be the corner stone of their lives. <^(
Who does not hunger for a kiss like that. I would wait 40 years for such a surrender.
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Seems regardless of our thoughts and conclusion of events before and after, the reunion kiss finds us always on common ground; it is iconic of the love, passion and committment that was and will be the corner stone of their lives. <^(
Who does not hunger for a kiss like that. I would wait 40 years for such a surrender.
As would I...
And yes I agree with your statement above!
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There's a point in "The Thornbirds" - OK, not great lit but it says a lot about love, if not very literately) when the main character says, of the woman who loves him far more than he will ever love anyone but himself,"If only I could love like that." Many of us would alter that to "If only I could be loved like that" when we think about the reunion kiss, more selfish than the first, but it's human nature to wanr, need to be loved.
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There's a point in "The Thornbirds" - OK, not great lit but it says a lot about love, if not very literately) when the main character says, of the woman who loves him far more than he will ever love anyone but himself,"If only I could love like that." Many of us would alter that to "If only I could be loved like that" when we think about the reunion kiss, more selfish than the first, but it's human nature to wanr, need to be loved.
And this is probably one reason we are so drawn to the boys. They may not realize what they have but we do.
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And we know how rare, and how improbable, it is. whichis why it's tragic - that they throw away, for all sorts of reasons, something everyone would like to have.
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Exactly welshwitch! And upon reflection, my post probably should have read:
They may not realize what they have (or how to nurture and protect it), but we do.
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And we know how rare, and how improbable, it is. whichis why it's tragic - that they throw away, for all sorts of reasons, something everyone would like to have.
Exactly welshwitch! And upon reflection, my post probably should have read:
They may not realize what they have (or how to nurture and protect it), but we do.
ww & FlwrChld .... <^(
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Yes, wonderful exchange.
Pix by Twisted
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg208.imageshack.us%2Fimg208%2F1425%2Fbscap0055wy9.jpg&hash=9b58b0180280c333698d54549098227dfccad2ca)
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tpe ... thank you (& twisted) for that picture! <^(
Kisses aside ... the times I feel their love for each other the most intensely is when they are forehead to forehead like that ...
OT, but even in FNIT the most passionate moment to me is when they are kneeling, face to face, hands holding each other heads and necks, foreheads pressed together ... more intense than what follows even ... they shut the rest of the world out in those moments.
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tpe ... thank you (& twisted) for that picture! <^(
Kisses aside ... the times I feel their love for each other the most intensely is when they are forehead to forehead like that ...
OT, but even in FNIT the most passionate moment to me is when they are kneeling, face to face, hands holding each other heads and necks, foreheads pressed together ... more intense than what follows even ... they shut the rest of the world out in those moments.
I agree MissRed. Those are some of the best moments! It's so intimate....
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh180%2Fmrl148%2FFNIT-1.jpg&hash=e5abd66744165e4c887a074545baaa12b7c20284)
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I agree MissRed. Those are some of the best moments! It's so intimate....
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh180%2Fmrl148%2FFNIT-1.jpg&hash=e5abd66744165e4c887a074545baaa12b7c20284)
That's it, exactly!!! <^( Thank you, Lady Fleur! ^f^
I love that moment ... that's the spark that never died ... <^(
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I do think the scenes of the 4 years were very effective cinematic devices that prepare us for the reunion scene. All the scenes were very episodical, like small vigniettes that build up the tension right before the embrace and kiss. Some people may find all the scense during the 4 years boring. But it carefully builds our anticipation for for that scene when they are reunited.
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So true, tpe. And I've personally never found the 4 year interlude boring ... rather, sad and lonely and yearning. Necessary to build the sense of loss and the contast between what they had together and what they settled for apart.
The wating (for them and for us) is what makes that reunion explosive.
Jack and Ennis kept the flame between them dampened down for those four years, but it was smothering inside them the whole time. Seeing each other again was like a rush of fresh air into an oxygen-starved fire ... it flash burned!
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So true, tpe. And I've personally never found the 4 year interlude boring ... rather, sad and lonely and yearning. Necessary to build the sense of loss and the contast between what they had together and what they settled for apart.
The wating (for them and for us) is what makes that reunion explosive.
Jack and Ennis kept the flame between them dampened down for those four years, but it was smothering inside them the whole time. Seeing each other again was like a rush of fresh air into an oxygen-starved fire ... it flash burned!
Ang Lee certainly did not hurry the interveneing scenes during the 4 years, no? Quite amazing how much tension you can build from seemingly prosaic scenes.
Yes, the renion is like lighting a match in an hydrogen-filled room.
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Hello MississaugaRed. I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew. Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment.
That quote above has got me rushing to my dvd to watch that again. Thanks tpe O0
I love this thread today, so interesting. The insights by everyone and oh! the lovely pictures! <^( (That forhead to forhead stuff they do, I wonder if Ang Lee or the boys themselves decided on it?) :s) Ummm......
And I've never found the 4 year interlude boring either, for the same reasons MississaugaRed says - it was necessary to show their rather sad time
apart compared to the power of their joy at the reunion. Ennis was so overcome with emotion at seeing Jack he didn't waste time worrying that Jack knew then... ::) <^( A hydrogen explosion indeed!
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That quote above has got me rushing to my dvd to watch that again. Thanks tpe O0
I love this thread today, so interesting. The insights by everyone and oh! the lovely pictures! <^( (That forhead to forhead stuff they do, I wonder if Ang Lee or the boys themselves decided on it?) :s) Ummm......
And I've never found the 4 year interlude boring either, for the same reasons MississaugaRed says - it was necessary to show their rather sad time apart compared to the power of their joy at the reunion. Ennis was so overcome with emotion at seeing Jack he didn't waste time worrying that Jack knew then... ::) <^( A hydrogen explosion indeed!
Hi Rosie. I suspect that Heath and Jake decided on how to do the kiss scene. THis is because Jake had said that Ang Lee did not really tell them things explicitly. But the way Heath and Jake did it was spectacular. It felt more than real.
Compare and contrast. I think your above comment is close to the heart of why the 4 years was a necessary part of the journey.
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That quote above has got me rushing to my dvd to watch that again. Thanks tpe O0
I love this thread today, so interesting. The insights by everyone and oh! the lovely pictures! <^( (That forhead to forhead stuff they do, I wonder if Ang Lee or the boys themselves decided on it?) :s) Ummm......
And I've never found the 4 year interlude boring either, for the same reasons MississaugaRed says - it was necessary to show their rather sad time apart compared to the power of their joy at the reunion. Ennis was so overcome with emotion at seeing Jack he didn't waste time worrying that Jack knew then... ::) <^( A hydrogen explosion indeed!
Hi Rosie. I suspect that Heath and Jake decided on how to do the kiss scene. THis is because Jake had said that Ang Lee did not really tell them things explicitly. But the way Heath and Jake did it was spectacular. It felt more than real.
Compare and contrast. I think your above comment is close to the heart of why the 4 years was a necessary part of the journey.
Same goes, Rosie! ^f^
The 4 years had to also justify the men they had become, compared to the boys they had been on Brokeback. It was necessary to show the ways life had beaten them down, or built them up, or just plain transmuted them through the passage of time.
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Hi Rosie. I suspect that Heath and Jake decided on how to do the kiss scene. THis is because Jake had said that Ang Lee did not really tell them things explicitly. But the way Heath and Jake did it was spectacular. It felt more than real.
Compare and contrast. I think your above comment is close to the heart of why the 4 years was a necessary part of the journey.
Same goes, Rosie! ^f^
The 4 years had to also justify the men they had become, compared to the boys they had been on Brokeback. It was necessary to show the ways life had beaten them down, or built them up, or just plain transmuted them through the passage of time.
I love this imagery. Thanks.
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And how love transmutes them when they are together - alchemy.
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The violence of the punch is mirrored in the violence of the reunion kiss.
This is wonderful idea, tpe.
Also, I want to say about the punch, to remember that a punch between two such physical men such as this is just not a huge deal. They probably both grew up fist-fighting. Totally unlike if, say, Ennis had punched Alma. That would be the end of it -- divorce court sooner rather than later -- unless, of course, she was the kind to put up with it because she couldn't make a life on her own yet, and the other reasons women stay with battering husbands. But in any event, both Ennis and Jack were aware of where that punch came from.
kathy
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I like the direction you're going, tpe! Did Ennis think that Jack knew, or didn't he?? Your conclusion absolutely makes sense, too. Isn't it great how similar roads can lead us to slightly different places? And odds are, next time I view BBM, I may be inclined to see it your way.
BBM is never the same to me twice, becasue each time I find I'm colouring it with various combinations of hues I've picked up from ej posters. Keeps it fresh, and I love that. <^(
That really is a beautiful thing about BBM and ennisjack.com and all the rest. We get to view it with different eyes each time after all this discussion, and bring those different seeings back here, and then back to viewing the movie again, and it just keeps building on itself...
kathy
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Hello MississaugaRed. I think Ennis was embarassed to realize tha Jack knew. Ennis couldn't hide his disappointment that they were going down the Mountain, and Jack's tenderness and compassion at that point probably made it all too obvious to Ennis that he was too transparent at that very moment.
Knowing how scarred Ennis was deep inside and seeing how he reacted to the news, it is not difficult to see how much he loved being with Jack at that instant in time. That he tried to forget Jack for 4 years probably entailed a heroic effort on his part, but small details surfaced during those 4 years (his mode of making love to Alma, for example) that told the lie.
More lovely, insightful stuff, tpe. And all of you. I love your first paragraph above, that Jack's tenderness and compassion made it obvious to Ennis that Jack could see right through him and knew how he felt. I just love, love, love this Jack, his tenderness and compassion. Such a beautiful man, for this and all the other reasons.
This makes me visualize the lassooing scene itself, the whole scene before Ennis punches him, starting with Jack looking at him up on the hill and taking his lasso off the horse. I would just fall into that man's arms and cry my heart out if I were in Ennis's place...after tumbling down the hillside wrestling... You know it would have excited them at the same time, at first anyway, at least I think -- and that probably added to Ennis's frustration. He loved Jack emotionally and sexually, and it was just too much for him, and that huge welling up came out in his fists.
Just another little minor moment: I love how the punch threw Ennis off balance himself, and he had to lean his hand on Jack's back to stand upright again.
And another: backing up toward the beginning of the scene, I love Jack's laughing when he first tripped Ennis with the lasso and Ennis started reeling him in and then they started wrestling. It was fun and funny at first. We'll have to really study this sequence to see the exact moment it stopped being funny.
But mostly I love Jack's "Ennis...Ennis," holding onto him, trying to help him after his nose is bloodied.
kathy
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Kathy, what a beautiful summary! I too love Jack in this scene. And poor Ennis. Oh how often I say that. And as to the fight , I mentioned before somewhere the wrestling scene from right after SNIT, which had a very different ending. I think your take on this one is spot on. As to the exact moment it went off-course, I'm not sure. Dang, I might have to watch it again! ;) I will say this though. The whole thing was beautifully choreogaphed.
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The fight on the hillside is one of the scenes that really gets me,my heart just breaks for both of them :\'( It's hard to say at when exactly it all goes wrong, but there's a point where they're suddenly not laughing anymore,but they're sort of grunting instead,Jack is on top of Ennis, and Ennis looks like he's trying to push Jack off. Maybe that was the moment when Ennis was becoming aroused, and it suddenly hit him how he felt about Jack,emotionally, physically, the lot, how was he going to cope now he had to leave him, and how could he go back to "real life", after every thing he'd felt and discovered with Jack? He's feeling scared, frustrated, angry, and in so much pain, and he lets it all out the only way he knows how, with his fists :( I sometimes wonder if Ennis actually wanted Jack to hit him at first, if he wanted to feel physical pain hoping it might ease the emotional pain he was feeling...and maybe he wanted an excuse to hit Jack, to make Jack feel the same pain, not to hurt Jack, but to make him realise how much he (Ennis) is suffering...I also feel that Ennis in a way blames Jack for making him feel that way about him,like in their final scene "It's cause of you, Jack, that I'm like this" :\'( Ahdunno, I'm rambling here... :-[ It's just weird the way I feel more sorry for Ennis than Jack here, even though Jack's my...I hate to use the word "favourite" with these two, cause it's not the right word, but I can't think what is right now...and I know from personal experience some of what Jack's going through there, but it's Ennis who really really makes me feel for him, even more than Jack ???
Back to the motel scene, I agree that Ennis mentions it as a sort of apology, and also he can't hide his relirf that obviously Jack wasn't sore about it, and so maybe he understood what the reasons were for the punch.
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And in the long run, Jack being Jack, it probably wouldn't matter if he understood the reasons for it or not. There isn't much he wouldn't forgive Ennis for. That's just the way he loved him.
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And in the long run, Jack being Jack, it probably wouldn't matter if he understood the reasons for it or not. There isn't much he wouldn't forgive Ennis for. That's just the way he loved him.
So true. Jack's love is so strong, so pure. He doesn't care about his ego -- he will give his everything to Ennis, if only...
Anyway, what does Jack say after Ennis says, "I figured you was sore from that punch" ?
kathy
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And in the long run, Jack being Jack, it probably wouldn't matter if he understood the reasons for it or not. There isn't much he wouldn't forgive Ennis for. That's just the way he loved him.
So true. Jack's love is so strong, so pure. He doesn't care about his ego -- he will give his everything to Ennis, if only...
Anyway, what does Jack say after Ennis says, "I figured you was sore from that punch" ?
kathy
He just kind of mumbles something like no, then tells Ennis he went up to Brokeback that next summer. I think this is his way of telling Ennis" I didn't care about that punch I went back the next summer hoping to find you" Of course Ennis wasn't there I wish he had been
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At first it almost seems as if nothing has changed between then and now - indeed they love each other as much as they did, but Ennis has become more deeply set in his matrix and Jack doesn't realize that he's never going to be able to dig him out. The "makin' a livin'" comment is the key, but because Ennis then goes off to the mountains with him, it doesn't sink in. they are happy for such a brief period in this scene.....
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At first it almost seems as if nothing has changed between then and now - indeed they love each other as much as they did, but Ennis has become more deeply set in his matrix and Jack doesn't realize that he's never going to be able to dig him out. The "makin' a livin'" comment is the key, but because Ennis then goes off to the mountains with him, it doesn't sink in. they are happy for such a brief period in this scene.....
I always found this divergence with the short story a good thing as far as the movie was concerned. It made the significance of the 4 years gradually sink in over a period of a few hours. On the surface, things seem to look the same, as you have said.