Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: tpe on Jan 22, 2006, 10:45 AM
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It is obvious that Jack (as played by played by Gyllenhaal) loved Ennis very much. It is not always obvious that Ennis loved Jack as deeply, and, perhaps, more faithfully.
I watched this movie again yesterday and I realized that that there are quite a number of scenes where Ennis' fierce and possessive love for Jack is so apparent. Can we name and discuss such instances and examples?
To start, I would want to cite one example that I completely missed until yesterday's viewing.
The scene is when Ennis comes back to Alma after spending a night with Jack at the Motel Siesta. After announcing to her that he and Jack are spending a few days out 'fishing', Ennis starts to pack and the following scene unfolds. Let me paraphrase the exchange between Ennis and Alma:
Alma: You know, your friend could come up and have coffee...
Ennis: He's from Texas...
Alma: Texans don't drink coffee?
[Ennis proceeds to ignore Alma...]
When Ennis exits the house, Alma looks out the window and overhears the following exchange between Jack and Ennis (my paraphrase):
Jack: I'm starving...You want to get a bite to eat?....
Ennis: Yup...
Ennis was so possessive of Jack that he refused to have Jack invited up to the house to get something to eat, even though he most probably knew that Jack had not had anything to eat and was hungry!!!!! Why did he refuse? Because he did not want to share Jack with anybody -- EVEN WITH HIS WIFE!
This is an INTENSE and POSSESSIVE love!
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When I saw the movie the first time, I just thought that Ennis could not wait to get Jack all to himself.
I'm not a saint (never pretended to be) but had once my lover and my bf in the same room, and I could not wait to get away! :P with either one of them!
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When I saw the movie the first time, I just thought that Ennis could not wait to get Jack all to himself.
I'm not a saint (never pretended to be) but had once my lover and my bf in the same room, and I could not wait to get away! :P with either one of them!
Dear Froggy. You love playing with fire! ;)
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:-\ ....... me? never! ;D
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Hmmmm
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*blushing...but not ashamed*
Let's go back to the original topic shall we? ;D
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*blushing...but not ashamed*
Let's go back to the original topic shall we? ;D
Good udea (an idea that U have)!
Jim
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I did not interpret the breakfast scene as one of Ennis trying to have Jack all to himself. To be honest, I thought it reflected more about Ennis' fear of being seen with Jack. There are very few times in the movie that we see the two of them together with other people. The opening sequence in the trailer and then at the bar, but I don't think those count. Then the breakfast scene you describe, and lastly when Jack drives to Ennis' place when he has the girls for the weekend. (Did I miss any?) In these last two scenes, Ennis seems to be very uncomfortable and I took that as being afraid to be with Jack in public for fear of being found out.
The only example of Ennis' fierce and possessive love for Jack I could recall was the final exchange between the two men. When Mexico is brought up, Ennis is deeply hurt at the prospect of Jack being unfaithful with another man and lashes out in anger.
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I did not interpret the breakfast scene as one of Ennis trying to have Jack all to himself. To be honest, I thought it reflected more about Ennis' fear of being seen with Jack. There are very few times in the movie that we see the two of them together with other people. The opening sequence in the trailer and then at the bar, but I don't think those count. Then the breakfast scene you describe, and lastly when Jack drives to Ennis' place when he has the girls for the weekend. (Did I miss any?) In these last two scenes, Ennis seems to be very uncomfortable and I took that as being afraid to be with Jack in public for fear of being found out.
The only example of Ennis' fierce and possessive love for Jack I could recall was the final exchange between the two men. When Mexico is brought up, Ennis is deeply hurt at the prospect of Jack being unfaithful with another man and lashes out in anger.
I would think Ennis would have a right to be hurt, finding out about infidelity in a two decade relationship... I don't think he's angry as much as he is hurt, that's how he registers pain.
Jim
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I would think Ennis would have a right to be hurt, finding out about infidelity in a two decade relationship... I don't think he's angry as much as he is hurt, that's how he registers pain.
yep!
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I did not interpret the breakfast scene as one of Ennis trying to have Jack all to himself. To be honest, I thought it reflected more about Ennis' fear of being seen with Jack. There are very few times in the movie that we see the two of them together with other people. The opening sequence in the trailer and then at the bar, but I don't think those count. Then the breakfast scene you describe, and lastly when Jack drives to Ennis' place when he has the girls for the weekend. (Did I miss any?) In these last two scenes, Ennis seems to be very uncomfortable and I took that as being afraid to be with Jack in public for fear of being found out.
The only example of Ennis' fierce and possessive love for Jack I could recall was the final exchange between the two men. When Mexico is brought up, Ennis is deeply hurt at the prospect of Jack being unfaithful with another man and lashes out in anger.
Thanks Kindred for your thoughts on the matter. Ennis was certainly afraid of being seen as too 'interested' in his friend, but he could also exhibit astonishing recklessness.
An example of such recklessness is, of course, the passionate kissing scene after the 4-year hiatus. Although Ennis did look around to make sure that nobody was watching, it was nonetheless quite reckless (but certainly not out of character) of him to instigate that passionate kiss. Ledger and Gyllenhaal follow the screenplay to the letter here. If we recall, Ennis is the one who instigates the kiss by pushing Jack violently against the wall and kissing him as if there were no tomorrow. And of course, Jack reciprocates in kind...
At least, they did not follow the original story to the letter, which indicates that the kiss was so violent that Jack's teeth 'draws blood'.
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I did not interpret the breakfast scene as one of Ennis trying to have Jack all to himself. To be honest, I thought it reflected more about Ennis' fear of being seen with Jack. There are very few times in the movie that we see the two of them together with other people. The opening sequence in the trailer and then at the bar, but I don't think those count. Then the breakfast scene you describe, and lastly when Jack drives to Ennis' place when he has the girls for the weekend. (Did I miss any?) In these last two scenes, Ennis seems to be very uncomfortable and I took that as being afraid to be with Jack in public for fear of being found out.
The only example of Ennis' fierce and possessive love for Jack I could recall was the final exchange between the two men. When Mexico is brought up, Ennis is deeply hurt at the prospect of Jack being unfaithful with another man and lashes out in anger.
Agreed!
Ennis alwayz feel uncomfortable when he and Jack with other ppl, he's too care bout what the ppl think bout their relationship...
Ennis was so in love with Jack but couldn't with him in public, that's why he looks so stressed up everytime!
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It is obvious that Jack (as played by played by Gyllenhaal) loved Ennis very much. It is not always obvious that Ennis loved Jack as deeply, and, perhaps, more faithfully.
I watched this movie again yesterday and I realized that that there are quite a number of scenes where Ennis' fierce and possessive love for Jack is so apparent. Can we name and discuss such instances and examples?
To start, I would want to cite one example that I completely missed until yesterday's viewing.
The scene is when Ennis comes back to Alma after spending a night with Jack at the Motel Siesta. After announcing to her that he and Jack are spending a few days out 'fishing', Ennis starts to pack and the following scene unfolds. Let me paraphrase the exchange between Ennis and Alma:
Alma: You know, your friend could come up and have coffee...
Ennis: He's from Texas...
Alma: Texans don't drink coffee?
[Ennis proceeds to ignore Alma...]
When Ennis exits the house, Alma looks out the window and overhears the following exchange between Jack and Ennis (my paraphrase):
Jack: I'm starving...You want to get a bite to eat?....
Ennis: Yup...
Ennis was so possessive of Jack that he refused to have Jack invited up to the house to get something to eat, even though he most probably knew that Jack had not had anything to eat and was hungry!!!!! Why did he refuse? Because he did not want to share Jack with anybody -- EVEN WITH HIS WIFE!
This is an INTENSE and POSSESSIVE love!
Actually the contrast of two scenes makes this apparent to me...on the initial fishing trip Jack says "You and Alma that's a life?" Ennis quietly replies "You hush about Alma this ain't her fault". Compare that to the kitchen scene from hell...."Jack Twist..Jack Nasty". Ennis absolutely loses it when Alma dares to insult Jack. I realize that part of this may have been shame on his part but I really do believe he was being protective of what he and Jack shared.
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rikcub,
This what bothers me so much about this scene. Ennis is now blaming Alma, "Once burned," which I find totally out of character. It is really my imoression that his anger here is more directed at the discovery of his homosexuality than at the slam to Jack. At this point in time his actions were more governed by his himophobia than by his love of Jack.
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At least, they did not follow the original story to the letter, which indicates that the kiss was so violent that Jack's teeth 'draws blood'.
well from what we saw they said that that Heath ledger broke Jake gyllenhaal nose on that scene
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I hadn't heard that?
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At least, they did not follow the original story to the letter, which indicates that the kiss was so violent that Jack's teeth 'draws blood'.
well from what we saw they said that that Heath ledger broke Jake gyllenhaal nose on that scene
I read that he almost broke Jake's nose because they were kissing so violently--in an interview with Ang Lee, I think. But, to get back to topic, I think that's great proof of Ennis's possessive love. We certainly don't ever see him going after Alma with such passion, even though he sees his physical contact with Jack as a big personal risk. I wasn't sure if he knew Alma saw them in the movie, but in the story it's clear he knows Alma saw them--but he doesn't care too much. So, in other words, he allows his wife to see his love not just for another person, but a man. He can't help expressing this love immediately, even if it means letting his wife, the other person in the world who knows him very well, see another side of him.
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Thanks, Shieldmaid. Even if Ennis had ever kissed Alma like that, which he did not, it would not be as telling because it would not have gone against his fears, beliefs, etc.
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It is obvious that Jack (as played by played by Gyllenhaal) loved Ennis very much. It is not always obvious that Ennis loved Jack as deeply, and, perhaps, more faithfully.
I watched this movie again yesterday and I realized that that there are quite a number of scenes where Ennis' fierce and possessive love for Jack is so apparent.
Getting the thread back on topic...The scene you refer to tpe doesn't show his love for Jack I don't think. When Jack was in the house and the two boys stood next to each other they were trembling so bad and Ennis's chest was heaving so bad that I am sure Ennis didn't want Alma to see that a second time. Maybe she missed it the first time. Also, Ennis just wanted to get out of there and to be with Jack.
No, I didn't see that what Ennis did was showing "fierce and possessive love for Jack"...just fear that Alma would see their reaction to each other.
I am still waiting for someone to point out scenes that do display Ennis was in love with Jack. I am not talking about loving Jack, there are plenty of those. I mean in love with Jack.
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[Getting the thread back on topic...The scene you refer to tpe doesn't show his love for Jack I don't think. When Jack was in the house and the two boys stood next to each other they were trembling so bad and Ennis's chest was heaving so bad that I am sure Ennis didn't want Alma to see that a second time. Maybe she missed it the first time. Also, Ennis just wanted to get out of there and to be with Jack.
No, I didn't see that what Ennis did was showing "fierce and possessive love for Jack"...just fear that Alma would see their reaction to each other.
I am still waiting for someone to point out scenes that do display Ennis was in love with Jack. I am not talking about loving Jack, there are plenty of those. I mean in love with Jack.
Do you mean something like--Ennis looking up at the stars and sending up a prayer of thanks? Ennis ordering soup instead of beans? Ennis taking their shirts out of Jack's room and hanging them in his trailer? For me, these are all ways in which Ennis shows he is in love with Jack--not just loving him in the moment or in lust.
peace--
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To mean Ennis's two emotional meltdowns, when he parts from Jack and when he declares that it is because of Jack that he has become a hoolow shell of a man, demonstrate that he was in love with Jack.
The only time I see him demoinstrating a possessive love is when he gets jealous about Jacks romps in Mexico.
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Do you mean something like--Ennis looking up at the stars and sending up a prayer of thanks? Ennis ordering soup instead of beans? Ennis taking their shirts out of Jack's room and hanging them in his trailer? For me, these are all ways in which Ennis shows he is in love with Jack--not just loving him in the moment or in lust.
peace--
You mean in love like knowing your lover just drove 14 hours, is happy as a clam and you send him home after just 1 minute and 38 seconds? You mean like when Jack told Ennis that he missed him so much he could hardly stand it and Ennis says NOTHING but looks into the fire. You mean by Ennis not being able to tell Jack he was looking forward to their reunion as much as Jack was when they were in the motel? Like Ennis being to homophobic to give Jack a word now and again about how much he loves being with him and how much he means to him but not so homophobic when it comes to kissing him and have sex with him because that satisfies Ennis's cravings?
There is no doubt that Ennis loved Jack. Jack was his best friend...his ONLY friend...and the sex was good too. But until I see evidence by things he did or said, he never understood how much Jack was truly in love with him until Ennis found the shirts. And then, AFTER he found the shirts and understood how much Jack not only loved him but was in love with him, the first question he asks Alma Jr. is, "This Kurt fella...does he love you?" That was the only important thing..does he love you....then love him back as much as he loves you.
peace to you also
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Getting the thread back on topic...The scene you refer to tpe doesn't show his love for Jack I don't think. When Jack was in the house and the two boys stood next to each other they were trembling so bad and Ennis's chest was heaving so bad that I am sure Ennis didn't want Alma to see that a second time. Maybe she missed it the first time. Also, Ennis just wanted to get out of there and to be with Jack.
No, I didn't see that what Ennis did was showing "fierce and possessive love for Jack"...just fear that Alma would see their reaction to each other.
I am still waiting for someone to point out scenes that do display Ennis was in love with Jack. I am not talking about loving Jack, there are plenty of those. I mean in love with Jack.
Patriot1, it is true that the boys were too uncomfortable being in the presence of Alma -- especially after the intensity of the kiss they shared that set thim into disequilibrium. But note that Ennis himself was not careful. In fact, he was quite reckless, not only in this scene, but in all succeeding scenes where he was negligent about covering his tracks during the fishing trips.
He was negligent perhaps because he really, deep down, did not care that Alma knew or what she surmised. It was enough for him that she keep it to herself and relegate it to a topic not openly discussed. The subtext of all their subsequent quarrels was precisely this feeling of betrayal. That was why the Thanksgiving scene was anathema to Ennis -- because Alma dared to bring it all out in the open.
Having said this, it seems reasonable for me to suppose that throughout his meetings with Jack before the divorce from Alma, fear was not a controling factor. Had it been fear, Ennis would have shown more discretion. But it is clear to me that it was not fear. It was certainly not fear when on the next day, he matter-of-factly told Alma that they were going on a fishing trip -- without warning or explanation. The fact that Ennis said that the ranch foreman 'owed' him a vacation is in rank contradistinction with his insisting on Alma earlier on that he had to leave the kids with her because he could not excuse himself from the job.
Ennis never shared Jack with anybody. I think this is quite clear in all the scenes. True, it was partly out of fear of the outside world. But I think this is not sufficient reason, given the longevity (20 years) of their relationship.
If it was indeed primarily fear, Ennis would have given up on Jack long before that.
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I see the way Ennis handled the situation with Alma in the abovementioned scene as he wanted to be "close" to Jack without any interruptions. However, he might not have wanted Alma to see the intense chemistry between him and Jack. Later when discussing Mexico: I think Ennis does not have a problem with Jack being with a woman...that was nothing new to their relationship. But when you add in another man...Ennis does not want Jack to share any similiar experience with another man. I believe that Ennis and Jack's relationship was intense at many levels (sexually, emotionally and mentally). Privacy of their relationship was important to Ennis as he mentioned several times. He also admitted that "this thing takes over us when we are together." Ennis expressed how intense and uncontrollable his passion is for Jack. I truly believe that Jack and Ennis could not get enough of each other to suffice their intense "hunger" for one another. I could feel this while watching the film. I think this is one aspect of the film that "pushed" me off the deep end. I want to share that intensity with someone and when I do...look out...because there will be flames of passion burning around about. HEHE!
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I see the way Ennis handled the situation with Alma in the abovementioned scene as he wanted to be "close" to Jack without any interruptions. However, he might not have wanted Alma to see the intense chemistry between him and Jack. Later when discussing Mexico: I think Ennis does not have a problem with Jack being with a woman...that was nothing new to their relationship. But when you add in another man...Ennis does not want Jack to share any similiar experience with another man. I believe that Ennis and Jack's relationship was intense at many levels (sexually, emotionally and mentally). Privacy of their relationship was important to Ennis as he mentioned several times. He also admitted that "this thing takes over us when we are together." Ennis expressed how intense and uncontrollable his passion is for Jack. I truly believe that Jack and Ennis could not get enough of each other to suffice their intense "hunger" for one another. I could feel this while watching the film. I think this is one aspect of the film that "pushed" me off the deep end. I want to share that intensity with someone and when I do...look out...because there will be flames of passion burning around about. HEHE!
'There's never enough time...never enough'.
drbill, I think I largely agree with what you said about Ennis not minding Jack being with a woman. But sometimes I do wonder about this. In the scene about the ranch foreman's wife, Ennis accepts this with a joke -- but you can detect a mournful look on his face after this. And Jack follows this up with the words 'Truth is...sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it'. This was Jack's off-hand way of telling Ennis that he was what he really needed -- not a ranch foreman's wife (or the ranch foreman himself).
I think Ennis (and Jack) accepted that for them to survive (not being objects of suspicion), they had to be visibly attached to women. I think Jack showed genuine concern for Ennis when he asked him about why he hasn't found a woman -- but I do not doubt that there is also a tinge of jealousy here and wanting to test where the other was as far as the relationship was concerned.
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couple of quick ideas about whether we see Ennis in love with Jack.
1- The camp fire hug --- where his connection with Jack takes him back to a deep childhood time of love and warmth --- deep connection. Only with those we love deepest, is there such a link. It goes way beyond sex /friendship.
2 - While he can't respond the way I'd hope so many times with Jack ---I personally found the looks on his face when facing their uncertain future spoke volumes--- in the motel when he says " i doubt theres much we can do " ; and when,by the river, he says "if you can't fix it you got to stand it". These were of such profound sadness that i couldn't doubt he's in love. When Jack touches his cheek --- the tears are so close.
3 - The second tent scene --- the way he gives himself to Jack --- trust and fear --- totally alien to what he's ever known . The way he touches Jack --- like he was so precious. Ennis lets Jack take the lead --- not a easy thing for him at all. The sense of their intimacy we all bear witness to seems to me to be love. Their hunger for each other is for more than sex.
These are examples of Ennis's emotions on show not like in the more explosive scenes --- but I think they reflect the depth of the love that drove the possessiveness and the ferocity. The ferocity of the love in the reunion kiss blows you away.
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couple of quick ideas about whether we see Ennis in love with Jack.
1- The camp fire hug --- where his connection with Jack takes him back to a deep childhood time of love and warmth --- deep connection. Only with those we love deepest, is there such a link. It goes way beyond sex /friendship.
2 - While he can't respond the way I'd hope so many times with Jack ---I personally found the looks on his face when facing their uncertain future spoke volumes--- in the motel when he says " i doubt theres much we can do " ; and when,by the river, he says "if you can't fix it you got to stand it". These were of such profound sadness that i couldn't doubt he's in love. When Jack touches his cheek --- the tears are so close.
3 - The second tent scene --- the way he gives himself to Jack --- trust and fear --- totally alien to what he's ever known . The way he touches Jack --- like he was so precious. Ennis lets Jack take the lead --- not a easy thing for him at all. The sense of their intimacy we all bear witness to seems to me to be love. Their hunger for each other is for more than sex.
These are examples of Ennis's emotions on show not like in the more explosive scenes --- but I think they reflect the depth of the love that drove the possessiveness and the ferocity. The ferocity of the love in the reunion kiss blows you away.
jackie62 - what a beautiful post. I totally agree with you about the second tent scene. Ennis is his 'own man', very much brought up with the idea of what the role of a man should represent, and that he should take the lead in situations, be a dominant force i guess. To see him SO trusting of Jack and to let him take the lead in their lovemaking is such a striking indicator of the depth of feeling he already has for Jack. Simply, THE most romantic and compelling love scene i have ever seen.
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couple of quick ideas about whether we see Ennis in love with Jack.
1- The camp fire hug --- where his connection with Jack takes him back to a deep childhood time of love and warmth --- deep connection. Only with those we love deepest, is there such a link. It goes way beyond sex /friendship.
2 - While he can't respond the way I'd hope so many times with Jack ---I personally found the looks on his face when facing their uncertain future spoke volumes--- in the motel when he says " i doubt theres much we can do " ; and when,by the river, he says "if you can't fix it you got to stand it". These were of such profound sadness that i couldn't doubt he's in love. When Jack touches his cheek --- the tears are so close.
3 - The second tent scene --- the way he gives himself to Jack --- trust and fear --- totally alien to what he's ever known . The way he touches Jack --- like he was so precious. Ennis lets Jack take the lead --- not a easy thing for him at all. The sense of their intimacy we all bear witness to seems to me to be love. Their hunger for each other is for more than sex.
These are examples of Ennis's emotions on show not like in the more explosive scenes --- but I think they reflect the depth of the love that drove the possessiveness and the ferocity. The ferocity of the love in the reunion kiss blows you away.
jackie62 - what a beautiful post. I totally agree with you about the second tent scene. Ennis is his 'own man', very much brought up with the idea of what the role of a man should represent, and that he should take the lead in situations, be a dominant force i guess. To see him SO trusting of Jack and to let him take the lead in their lovemaking is such a striking indicator of the depth of feeling he already has for Jack. Simply, THE most romantic and compelling love scene i have ever seen.
Yes, I agree completely. That was a beautiful post. Thank you.
The ferocity of the reunion kiss... No other way to better describe it. It is like the kiss at world's end.
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couple of quick ideas about whether we see Ennis in love with Jack.
1- The camp fire hug --- where his connection with Jack takes him back to a deep childhood time of love and warmth --- deep connection. Only with those we love deepest, is there such a link. It goes way beyond sex /friendship.
2 - While he can't respond the way I'd hope so many times with Jack ---I personally found the looks on his face when facing their uncertain future spoke volumes--- in the motel when he says " i doubt theres much we can do " ; and when,by the river, he says "if you can't fix it you got to stand it". These were of such profound sadness that i couldn't doubt he's in love. When Jack touches his cheek --- the tears are so close.
3 - The second tent scene --- the way he gives himself to Jack --- trust and fear --- totally alien to what he's ever known . The way he touches Jack --- like he was so precious. Ennis lets Jack take the lead --- not a easy thing for him at all. The sense of their intimacy we all bear witness to seems to me to be love. Their hunger for each other is for more than sex.
These are examples of Ennis's emotions on show not like in the more explosive scenes --- but I think they reflect the depth of the love that drove the possessiveness and the ferocity. The ferocity of the love in the reunion kiss blows you away.
nice post, I completely agrre with you. Finally we can speak about true, absolute love... altgough the drama of the story Ennis and Jack had a big chance: they found the perfect love which not all people can realize
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The scene is when Ennis comes back to Alma after spending a night with Jack at the Motel Siesta. After announcing to her that he and Jack are spending a few days out 'fishing', Ennis starts to pack and the following scene unfolds. Let me paraphrase the exchange between Ennis and Alma:
Alma: You know, your friend could come up and have coffee...
Ennis: He's from Texas...
Alma: Texans don't drink coffee?
[Ennis proceeds to ignore Alma...]
When Ennis exits the house, Alma looks out the window and overhears the following exchange between Jack and Ennis (my paraphrase):
Jack: I'm starving...You want to get a bite to eat?....
Ennis: Yup...
Ennis was so possessive of Jack that he refused to have Jack invited up to the house to get something to eat, even though he most probably knew that Jack had not had anything to eat and was hungry!!!!! Why did he refuse? Because he did not want to share Jack with anybody -- EVEN WITH HIS WIFE!
This is an INTENSE and POSSESSIVE love!
I find this to be an interesting take on this particular scene.
What leaped off the screen at me was something totally different. It was so obvious to me that Ennis was going out of his way not to touch Alma. He squeezed by her several times and did not tough her. When he came into the house he didn't say hi and hiss her. When he was finally ready to leave he sort of stood there like he didn't know what to do next and finally kissed her on the cheek, which is more than he did when he almost forgot the creel case.
So, I thought the movie was showing me the beginning of the end of Ennis and Alma. Never occurred to me they were showing Ennis's possessive love of Jack. If anything, I would go along with Ennis not wanting to show how much he trembled from anticipation around Jack in front of his wife.
I hope this isn't off topic, but, for a young man who was so paranoid that someone might find out about his relationship with Jack, he was awfully careless around Alma.
He takes the day off where he wears his best shirt, paces around the apartment, drinks heavily, smokes to the point of chain smoking, sits in the window waiting for...who...another man. And when Jack finally does show up Ennis bounds out of the house like someone is outside giving away one hundred dollar bills and bounds down the stairs. Did it never occur to him that with all that day's behavior Alma just might come to the door to see who this Jack Twist is and to greet him as a good wife might?
Then he tells Alma he might stay out all night because when they get drinking and talking... What, Alma doesn't know the bars close at a certain hour? Where was he from the time the bar closed until the next morning, and if he had been drinking and talking all night, why wasn't he drunk when he did get home?
Ennis's behavior did everything to tell her something was very strange about this relationship with Jack Twist. I'm not sure she had to see them kissing to come to that conclusion. Ennis was surely very reckless for a man who didn't want anyone to know.
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3 - The second tent scene --- the way he gives himself to Jack --- trust and fear --- totally alien to what he's ever known . The way he touches Jack --- like he was so precious. Ennis lets Jack take the lead --- not a easy thing for him at all. The sense of their intimacy we all bear witness to seems to me to be love. Their hunger for each other is for more than sex.
jackie62 - what a beautiful post. I totally agree with you about the second tent scene. Ennis is his 'own man', very much brought up with the idea of what the role of a man should represent, and that he should take the lead in situations, be a dominant force i guess. To see him SO trusting of Jack and to let him take the lead in their lovemaking is such a striking indicator of the depth of feeling he already has for Jack. Simply, THE most romantic and compelling love scene i have ever seen.
So true! I couldn't have said it better. and you guys make me cry.
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What gets me in this scene is the way he ponders his move on the log, then ambles into the tent so tentatively and as you've all said relinquishes his authority to Jack. He let's go of all his beliefs and fears. Just as he does, during the reunion embrace. Just imagine the ferocity of his emotions to let his guard down so much to kiss Jack in public! It's mind boggling!
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it had just hit me - the difference between the first and the second tent scenes:
on the first time, they had sex.
on the second time, they made love.
That's the difference in my eyes.
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Yes, that is what makes that second scene so powerful.
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thanks v much for the supportive comments on my earlier post.
I agree with t he thoughts of keren b re the difference between the 2 tent scenes.
I know some people see the first scene as solely about sex but I'm not so sure.
I do think the first tent scene was a combination of lust, need and part of the ferocity of feeling Ennis had for Jack. It overwhelmed him. Heath Ledger said it had to be an almost violent act from Ennis --- I'm not saying that he wanted to hurt Jack but that the need for him was strong but held back , and totally unrecognized for what it was by Ennis until then. I guess I think an attraction for Jack started in Ennis pretty early on but was totally unclear to him.
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I only would say how we can tell that Ennis is possessive when he encounters Jack 2-3 times per year for some day and he never ask Jack to do something for him, to renounce to something... he only wishes to be so important to Jack as Jack is to him...
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For me, the 1st tent scene is indeed an act of taking possession on the part of Ennis.
But it is not Ennis taking possession of Jack. I think it is more like Ennis taking possession of his own desires.
Underneath all his desires was his love for Jack.
He needed to face up first to his desires before he could finally face up to that love.
In the 2nd tent scene, he took possession of this love.
My opinion.
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For me, the 1st tent scene is indeed an act of taking possession on the part of Ennis.
But it is not Ennis taking possession of Jack. I think it is more like Ennis taking possession of his own desires.
Underneath all his desires was his love for Jack.
He needed to face up first to his desires before he could finally face up to that love.
In the 2nd tent scene, he took possession of this love.
My opinion.
beautifully put
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For me, the 1st tent scene is indeed an act of taking possession on the part of Ennis.
But it is not Ennis taking possession of Jack. I think it is more like Ennis taking possession of his own desires.
Underneath all his desires was his love for Jack.
He needed to face up first to his desires before he could finally face up to that love.
In the 2nd tent scene, he took possession of this love.
My opinion.
of course that possession.. I completely agree with you tpe..
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Thanks jackie62 and coguaro.
It is so hard sometimes to say in words why we love this film and story so much. But when I read many of the posts here and in other threads in this forum, I find that it somehow gets somewhat easier.
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it had just hit me - the difference between the first and the second tent scenes:
on the first time, they had sex.
on the second time, they made love.
That's the difference in my eyes.
That's why the 2nd tent scene, make my feel happy and sad, in the same time.
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In my opinion even more than the reunion kiss is significant what happens just before. Two moments in particular :
1) This Ennis' look
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi77.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj66%2Ffranny19%2Fheath.jpg&hash=e532245e626f4d5c818587764b4399fc1ff36628)
2) The way he pronounces his "Jake f***** Twist" with a kind of trembling voice. We can even touch his excitement, distress, emotion...
P.S. For me, the 1st tent (...) I think it is more like Ennis taking possession of his own desires.
In the 2nd tent scene, he took possession of this love.
Tpe, what a precise and accurate way to summarize the two tent scenes!
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In my opinion even more than the reunion kiss is significant what happens just before. Two moments in particular :
1) This Ennis' look
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi77.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj66%2Ffranny19%2Fheath.jpg&hash=e532245e626f4d5c818587764b4399fc1ff36628)
2) The way he pronounces his "Jake f***** Twist" with a kind of trembling voice. We can even touch his excitement, distress, emotion...
one of my favorite moments. I love that look, and that smile. and the way he rushes outside in such a hurry. he reminds me of a little kid waiting for his dad to come home and bring him a present... so enthusiastic, so sweet.
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In my opinion even more than the reunion kiss is significant what happens just before. Two moments in particular :
1) This Ennis' look
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi77.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj66%2Ffranny19%2Fheath.jpg&hash=e532245e626f4d5c818587764b4399fc1ff36628)
2) The way he pronounces his "Jake f***** Twist" with a kind of trembling voice. We can even touch his excitement, distress, emotion...
one of my favorite moments. I love that look, and that smile. and the way he rushes outside in such a hurry. he reminds me of a little kid waiting for his dad to come home and bring him a present... so enthusiastic, so sweet.
The beautiful look on Ennis's face when he first sees Jack from the window of his apartment: the happiness you see there is not accompanied by any words or dialogue -- this is because that happiness is beyond any form of verbal expression.
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couple of quick ideas about whether we see Ennis in love with Jack.
1- The camp fire hug --- where his connection with Jack takes him back to a deep childhood time of love and warmth --- deep connection. Only with those we love deepest, is there such a link. It goes way beyond sex /friendship.
2 - While he can't respond the way I'd hope so many times with Jack ---I personally found the looks on his face when facing their uncertain future spoke volumes--- in the motel when he says " i doubt theres much we can do " ; and when,by the river, he says "if you can't fix it you got to stand it". These were of such profound sadness that i couldn't doubt he's in love. When Jack touches his cheek --- the tears are so close.
3 - The second tent scene --- the way he gives himself to Jack --- trust and fear --- totally alien to what he's ever known . The way he touches Jack --- like he was so precious. Ennis lets Jack take the lead --- not a easy thing for him at all. The sense of their intimacy we all bear witness to seems to me to be love. Their hunger for each other is for more than sex.
These are examples of Ennis's emotions on show not like in the more explosive scenes --- but I think they reflect the depth of the love that drove the possessiveness and the ferocity. The ferocity of the love in the reunion kiss blows you away.
Jackie, what a wonderful post. I could not have expressed myself in that way, but I was thinking all of this in my mind!!! The second tent scene shoes so clearly how much Ennis has accepted that he loves Jack. He allows Jack to lead him in and touch and hold him, in a way that he wants to be held and touched. When they lie down and you see the way Ennis is holding on to Jack - this really does get to me, every single time. It's like he's drowning in Jack's love and doesn't ever want to stop touching him.
I agree with those who talk about the first tent scene too. I agree this is more about power and control, but the way Ennis holds Jack shows that he is being drawn in and when Jack undoes his belt, you see a look in Ennis's face that says he's either going to punch Jack or sleep with him. And we know what happens then.
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In my opinion even more than the reunion kiss is significant what happens just before. Two moments in particular :
1) This Ennis' look
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi77.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj66%2Ffranny19%2Fheath.jpg&hash=e532245e626f4d5c818587764b4399fc1ff36628)
2) The way he pronounces his "Jake f***** Twist" with a kind of trembling voice. We can even touch his excitement, distress, emotion...
one of my favorite moments. I love that look, and that smile. and the way he rushes outside in such a hurry. he reminds me of a little kid waiting for his dad to come home and bring him a present... so enthusiastic, so sweet.
The beautiful look on Ennis's face when he first sees Jack from the window of his apartment: the happiness you see there is not accompanied by any words or dialogue -- this is because that happiness is beyond any form of verbal expression.
So true, tpe, so true. No words are needed, you KNOW what Ennis is thinking and feeling. He looks SO happy right at that moment, you can just imagine what he's thinking:
"there he is, the love of my life".
And then we see him, tucking his shirt in, eager to get out and see Jack, and then that "Jack.....Twist" line which I think is so sweet, and then Ennis jumping down a number of stairs at a time to get to Jack quicker......which leads us to the most gorgeous passionate kiss.
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So true, tpe, so true. No words are needed, you KNOW what Ennis is thinking and feeling. He looks SO happy right at that moment, you can just imagine what he's thinking:
"there he is, the love of my life".
And then we see him, tucking his shirt in, eager to get out and see Jack, and then that "Jack.....Twist" line which I think is so sweet, and then Ennis jumping down a number of stairs at a time to get to Jack quicker......which leads us to the most gorgeous passionate kiss.
Hi Christie! I think Ennis shoving Jack to the wall is a form of possession: Ennis is owning up to his love for Jack -- he probably can't help it at that point. He had to take possession. Can you imagine Ennis's feelings when Jack shoves him back in return?
:)
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So true, tpe, so true. No words are needed, you KNOW what Ennis is thinking and feeling. He looks SO happy right at that moment, you can just imagine what he's thinking:
"there he is, the love of my life".
And then we see him, tucking his shirt in, eager to get out and see Jack, and then that "Jack.....Twist" line which I think is so sweet, and then Ennis jumping down a number of stairs at a time to get to Jack quicker......which leads us to the most gorgeous passionate kiss.
Hi Christie! I think Ennis shoving Jack to the wall is a form of possession: Ennis is owning up to his love for Jack -- he probably can't help it at that point. He had to take possession. Can you imagine Ennis's feelings when Jack shoves him back in return?
:)
You know when I think about that, as I'm thinking about it right now, I get flutters in my stomach, I really do! That shoving up against the wall that they both do is just so powerful, and says so much. We all know how Jack must have felt to have Ennis initiate that, but for Jack then to reciprocate, I can only imagine that Ennis now knows that this is real, this true, this is what real love is like.
God, I will never get sick of this scene, never!
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I know some of you may think this petty in relation to other ways Ennis showed his love for Jack, but what do you think about when Ennis shot the elk? Especially after saying "i'll stick with beans".....to me, he was doing this for Jack. Of course, he would never say that, but to me it's all part of Ennis's growing feelings for Jack that cannot go unexplained. It may seem insignficiant on the face of it, but to me it's important because it's hidden in something else - Ennis trying to be big and cool in front of Jack, shooting the elk and saying "I was sick of your dumb ass missin".
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A wonderful observation, Christie, especially after the "I'll stick with beans" comment! Now your insight has got me thinking about other small scenes again!
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Christie I agree with you, I think it's obvious that Ennis was doing it for Jack. Ennis has never said he was sick of beans, he was willing to compromise for beans (the same way he compromised for a few high altitude f***s once or twice a year). but Jack said "no more beans", and Ennis ordered soup although he wasn't eating it himself. And after the bear incident if it was up to Ennis he'd stick with beans, he said so, but Jack said he wouldn't so Ennis shot the elk. Yep, we see what's going on...
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Nothing can equal the ability to love, except the realization that you are also loved in return.
Thanks all for the wonderful comments.
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Nothing can equal the ability to love, except the realization that you are also loved in return.
Thanks all for the wonderful comments.
Once again tpe you have succinctly summed up the core of these recent posts. Thanks.
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Christie I agree with you, I think it's obvious that Ennis was doing it for Jack. Ennis has never said he was sick of beans, he was willing to compromise for beans (the same way he compromised for a few high altitude f***s once or twice a year). but Jack said "no more beans", and Ennis ordered soup although he wasn't eating it himself. And after the bear incident if it was up to Ennis he'd stick with beans, he said so, but Jack said he wouldn't so Ennis shot the elk. Yep, we see what's going on...
One of the reasons that I think Ennis had an attraction to Jack early on was him ordering soup when he himself doesn't eat soup...AND the fact that he hid the real reason. If he was just being nice to Jack, why not just tell the supply guy the truth? No, I think Ennis was starting to "like" Jack --feeling a gut-level attraction to him early on. Think of how a 13-year-old acts when they start feeling the hots for someone. They do nice things for them but are all embarrassed about people knowing. The even make up excuses or lie to hide that they "like-like' someone, to deny the romantic/sexual attraction they are feeling. The fact that Ennis ordered soup for Jack only tells me he was being considerate, which in itself is meaningful. But the fact that Ennis felt the urge then to LIE about the motivation -- to hide it even though the truth was a perfectly understandable and simple explanation -- that tells me there was something more going on even from that very early date.
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Christie I agree with you, I think it's obvious that Ennis was doing it for Jack. Ennis has never said he was sick of beans, he was willing to compromise for beans (the same way he compromised for a few high altitude f***s once or twice a year). but Jack said "no more beans", and Ennis ordered soup although he wasn't eating it himself. And after the bear incident if it was up to Ennis he'd stick with beans, he said so, but Jack said he wouldn't so Ennis shot the elk. Yep, we see what's going on...
One of the reasons that I think Ennis had an attraction to Jack early on was him ordering soup when he himself doesn't eat soup...AND the fact that he hid the real reason. If he was just being nice to Jack, why not just tell the supply guy the truth? No, I think Ennis was starting to "like" Jack --feeling a gut-level attraction to him early on. Think of how a 13-year-old acts when they start feeling the hots for someone. They do nice things for them but are all embarrassed about people knowing. The even make up excuses or lie to hide that they "like-like' someone, to deny the romantic/sexual attraction they are feeling. The fact that Ennis ordered soup for Jack only tells me he was being considerate, which in itself is meaningful. But the fact that Ennis felt the urge then to LIE about the motivation -- to hide it even though the truth was a perfectly understandable and simple explanation -- that tells me there was something more going on even from that very early date.
Absolutely. He was beginning to like Jack, (just like teenagers as you so perfectly put!) but had no means of expressing that other than in the little things, in this case replacing beans with soup. He told the supply guy early on that he didn't eat soup, and he'd never said anything to indicate that he was sick of beans, so he was so clearly doing this for Jack.
btw, Keren_b, you know you said Ennis never said he was sick of beans, but he said it to the supply guy when he said "I thought you didn't eat soup", and Ennis replied "well, I'm sick of beans". Even when I heard that the first time, I knew Ennis was lying, and was only saying that as a reason to give the supply guy to give them something other than beans, because Jack didn't want beans any more.
Who would have thought that beans could have so much power to open up all these loving feelings in Ennis!
I am so loving this thread!
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Christie I agree with you, I think it's obvious that Ennis was doing it for Jack. Ennis has never said he was sick of beans, he was willing to compromise for beans (the same way he compromised for a few high altitude f***s once or twice a year). but Jack said "no more beans", and Ennis ordered soup although he wasn't eating it himself. And after the bear incident if it was up to Ennis he'd stick with beans, he said so, but Jack said he wouldn't so Ennis shot the elk. Yep, we see what's going on...
One of the reasons that I think Ennis had an attraction to Jack early on was him ordering soup when he himself doesn't eat soup...AND the fact that he hid the real reason. If he was just being nice to Jack, why not just tell the supply guy the truth? No, I think Ennis was starting to "like" Jack --feeling a gut-level attraction to him early on. Think of how a 13-year-old acts when they start feeling the hots for someone. They do nice things for them but are all embarrassed about people knowing. The even make up excuses or lie to hide that they "like-like' someone, to deny the romantic/sexual attraction they are feeling. The fact that Ennis ordered soup for Jack only tells me he was being considerate, which in itself is meaningful. But the fact that Ennis felt the urge then to LIE about the motivation -- to hide it even though the truth was a perfectly understandable and simple explanation -- that tells me there was something more going on even from that very early date.
I agree, i think this is such a touching indicator of Ennis' attraction to Jack. Its like the shy kid at school being blown away by one of the confident kids and trying to please them without making it TOO obvious - its just so cute of Ennis..
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I agree, i think this is such a touching indicator of Ennis' attraction to Jack. Its like the shy kid at school being blown away by one of the confident kids and trying to please them without making it TOO obvious - its just so cute of Ennis..
Whoa...new Brokeback emotion hitting here! I agree with the analogy of Ennis being the shy kid who is blown away with attraction to one of the confident kids. Now just imagine how heady and intoxicating that was for Ennis when it actually came true!
I have something sort of similar in my background. A good friend of mine who was definitely more popular, confident, and physically well out of my league (so I felt) was as far as I could tell, only interested in women. When late one night he put the moves on me it was perhaps the most dizzying, intoxicating, amazing feeling in my life. Getting woozy just thinking about it now, nearly 20 years later. I never thought of Ennis having this same feeling until now, but I bet he did. And then to pit it against the internal homophobia and fear he felt, well, holy cow! What conflict he must have felt.
I've often wondered just what Ennis is feeling when he gets up the morning after the first tent scene. Anyone care to speculate?
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I agree, i think this is such a touching indicator of Ennis' attraction to Jack. Its like the shy kid at school being blown away by one of the confident kids and trying to please them without making it TOO obvious - its just so cute of Ennis..
Whoa...new Brokeback emotion hitting here! I agree with the analogy of Ennis being the shy kid who is blown away with attraction to one of the confident kids. Now just imagine how heady and intoxicating that was for Ennis when it actually came true!
I have something sort of similar in my background. A good friend of mine who was definitely more popular, confident, and physically well out of my league (so I felt) was as far as I could tell, only interested in women. When late one night he put the moves on me it was perhaps the most dizzying, intoxicating, amazing feeling in my life. Getting woozy just thinking about it now, nearly 20 years later. I never thought of Ennis having this same feeling until now, but I bet he did. And then to pit it against the internal homophobia and fear he felt, well, holy cow! What conflict he must have felt.
I've often wondered just what Ennis is feeling when he gets up the morning after the first tent scene. Anyone care to speculate?
I'd find this interesting to know too. His first reaction - shock, disbelief, relief, happiness? It must have been such a mix of different instinctive feelings - i wonder if his sense of homophobia outweighed his attraction for Jack, or vice-versa?
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I've often wondered just what Ennis is feeling when he gets up the morning after the first tent scene. Anyone care to speculate?
In my opinion the first thing he think about is : "whao my head, what a fu**ing headache!", and then " uh? why my pants are down? Oh I remember." Then he needs to flee from talking with jack.
As he rides going on find the sheeps, I think he must think a little like this :
it was stange
I liked it
I don't have to, he's a man
he's the best mate I've ever had
it's not good
he's so cute and nice
I marry alma in few months
I've never felt better than when I'm with him
what does he thinks?
I really loved it tonight
what does he think of me?
I'd like to do it again
We're dead if someone learns it
I want to hold him in my arms
I'm supposed to be with a girl and have children, not to go with a guy
he started all tonight, maybe he wants more too
my dad would kill me without any hesitation
and what if...
I don't even have to think about it
I ain't queer. I need him.
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I've often wondered just what Ennis is feeling when he gets up the morning after the first tent scene. Anyone care to speculate?
In my opinion the first thing he think about is : "whao my head, what a fu**ing headache!", and then " uh? why my pants are down? Oh I remember." Then he needs to flee from talking with jack.
As he rides going on find the sheeps, I think he must think a little like this :
it was stange
I liked it
I don't have to, he's a man
he's the best mate I've ever had
it's not good
he's so cute and nice
I marry alma in few months
I've never felt better than when I'm with him
what does he thinks?
I really loved it tonight
what does he think of me?
I'd like to do it again
We're dead if someone learns it
I want to hold him in my arms
I'm supposed to be with a girl and have cildren, not to go with a guy
he started all tonight, maybe he wants more too
my dad would kill me without any hesitation
and what if...
I don't even have to think about it
I ain't queer. I need him.
How touching :'(
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I've often wondered just what Ennis is feeling when he gets up the morning after the first tent scene. Anyone care to speculate?
In my opinion the first thing he think about is : "whao my head, what a fu**ing headache!", and then " uh? why my pants are down? Oh I remember." Then he needs to flee from talking with jack.
As he rides going on find the sheeps, I think he must think a little like this :
it was stange
I liked it
I don't have to, he's a man
he's the best mate I've ever had
it's not good
he's so cute and nice
I marry alma in few months
I've never felt better than when I'm with him
what does he thinks?
I really loved it tonight
what does he think of me?
I'd like to do it again
We're dead if someone learns it
I want to hold him in my arms
I'm supposed to be with a girl and have cildren, not to go with a guy
he started all tonight, maybe he wants more too
my dad would kill me without any hesitation
and what if...
I don't even have to think about it
I ain't queer. I need him.
How touching :'(
Yes, very moving.
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That's sooo beautiful, Pierralex.
Merci!
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I've often wondered just what Ennis is feeling when he gets up the morning after the first tent scene. Anyone care to speculate?
In my opinion the first thing he think about is : "whao my head, what a fu**ing headache!", and then " uh? why my pants are down? Oh I remember." Then he needs to flee from talking with jack.
As he rides going on find the sheeps, I think he must think a little like this :
it was stange
I liked it
I don't have to, he's a man
he's the best mate I've ever had
it's not good
he's so cute and nice
I marry alma in few months
I've never felt better than when I'm with him
what does he thinks?
I really loved it tonight
what does he think of me?
I'd like to do it again
We're dead if someone learns it
I want to hold him in my arms
I'm supposed to be with a girl and have children, not to go with a guy
he started all tonight, maybe he wants more too
my dad would kill me without any hesitation
and what if...
I don't even have to think about it
I ain't queer. I need him.
That is fantastic! So well described. I can just hear Ennis saying all this in his head, can you?
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Christie, You spoke about how Ennis's shooting of the elk was indicative of his love for Jack in one way. I also see another reason. Ennis is a man who plays by the rules. We see him here clearly breaking the rules for Jack by poaching. Maybe, this is the first situation in which he defies society for Jack?
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a great insight! Thank you. And yet another reminder of the infinite depths of this film BBM.
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Christie, You spoke about how Ennis's shooting of the elk was indicative of his love for Jack in one way. I also see another reason. Ennis is a man who plays by the rules. We see him here clearly breaking the rules for Jack by poaching. Maybe, this is the first situation in which he defies society for Jack?
Oh my gosh, yes! I never thought of it like that before, but you are so right. He even said to Jack "we're supposed to look after the sheep, not eat them" didn't he? And then there he was, going against that completely by shooting the elk. After all, he really didn't have to. They could have survived on beans until the next grocery pick up, even though Jack probably would have moaned. It wasn't like they were starving. So for Ennis to do that, it's a big step for him, and it certainly is a step closer to going further into their developing intimate relationship.
Thanks nancy for bringing that up!!!
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Kudos for that excellent observation! Ennis is NOT a rule-breaker, but he clearly did here for Jack.
Just another sign that Ennis, from very early on, felt something serious for Jack. Not to swerve into the "who fell in love first' thread which I've seen here or elsewhere, but more and more I think it was Ennis.
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Kudos for that excellent observation! Ennis is NOT a rule-breaker, but he clearly did here for Jack.
Just another sign that Ennis, from very early on, felt something serious for Jack. Not to swerve into the "who fell in love first' thread which I've seen here or elsewhere, but more and more I think it was Ennis.
I'm so glad you said that. Me, too.
This forum has been invaluable to me in allowing me to see things through Jack's viewpoint. I am so much like Ennis, that I sometimes have trouble understanding Jack to the degree that others do. It's great that others understand Jack so well, that they allow me to see him through their eyes.
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a wonderful response, n061857! You help me to realize that through this forum I've gained new insights and empathy with every perspective that is posted! And with every detail in the film that is observed, I find depth where I had too casually glanced before!
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True, Stephen. I feel so blessed to have been able to share ideas with such a vast multitude of intelligient people, who each brings with them their own set of insights based on their experiences, professions, interests, varying cultures, etc.. I remember when I first saw this film, I had so many questions. I didn'y know what to do with them. I went on the Annie Proulx website, thinking that I would have to write to her not expecting a response - and I found a link here. I thank God every day for this website and all the wonderful people on it.
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Thanks for your great postings but we all now are a bit off topic maybe? :-X
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Sorry, Chameau! :-X
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Yes! And you just reminded me that I went through the same process! I was so overloaded with feelings and questions and melancholy from BBM that I rushed to Annie Proulx's site hoping to find some salvation there or to just write her agent to get some of the burden off my chest....and there was the ennisjack address.....and here we are: "let the stars shine through...." And where are these words from?
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Yes, to stay on topic: It's Ennis' fierce love, especially when he threatens Jack's life with the south of the border threat, that really through me when I first saw the film! In fact, I was in shock hearing these words coming from Ennis at what turns out to be his last meeting with Jack.
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Yes, to stay on topic: It's Ennis' fierce love, especially when he threatens Jack's life with the south of the border threat, that really through me when I first saw the film! In fact, I was in shock hearing these words coming from Ennis at what turns out to be his last meeting with Jack.
Yes, Stephen, it was so hard to hear them especially after he says what Mexico has "for boys like you". But we know WHY he says this - his unbridled love for Jack, and ultimate jealousy that is out of his control. He cannot bear to think of Jack with another man, but he knows deep down that it's down to him that Jack ever went to Mexico in the first place. If Ennis had allowed himself to love Jack in the way he deserved to be, Mexico would never have been a place for Jack to visit.
This fierce and possessive love of Ennis's is so frustrating too. Jack drops everything to be with Ennis - we know this, as the heartbreaking post-divorce scene shows - and yet Ennis is still able to hurt Jack with words and actions.
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and yet Ennis is still able to hurt Jack with words and actions.
Ennis hurts HIMSELF more. Jack knows it. ;)
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and yet Ennis is still able to hurt Jack with words and actions.
Ennis hurts HIMSELF more. Jack knows it. ;)
Absolutely...Jack DOES know that Ennis is hurting himself more...who always comforts who? Even after Ennis has verbally attacked Jack about Mexico,Jack is ready to forgive and comfort Ennis when he says "I'm nothin', I'm nowhere"And continues to hold on to him even when Ennis says "Get the f**k off me"...he holds Ennis anyway and says "Damn you Ennis." Jack knows that Ennis is his own worse enemy. And I think that Jack realizes that although he may go with other men himself, Ennis doesn't...that it has always been just Jack for Ennis.
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And to think we wouldn't even know of Ennis's fierce love for Jack if , after Ennis tells him to lighten up, Jack had not gotten into his diatribe of "this is******of an unsatisfactory situation....". Isn't this fierce love domonstrated only in this breath-taking last scene between the two?
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Yes, to stay on topic: It's Ennis' fierce love, especially when he threatens Jack's life with the south of the border threat, that really through me when I first saw the film! In fact, I was in shock hearing these words coming from Ennis at what turns out to be his last meeting with Jack.
I was also so shocked. I thought I had heard it incorrectly and had to listen very intently the second time. Now that is jealousy and possessiveness.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly, Donne Reed.
Stephen, Isn't it interesting that Ennis needs to be in an emotional collapse to get to the point where he can share these feelings?
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Yes, and to think it took nearly 20 years to get to this point; and it took nearly as long for Alma, also near emotional collapse, to confront Ennis! And in both cases, Ennis makes the threats! His confrontations with Alma and with Jack were for me the two most unexpected and powerful scenes, and continue to take my breath away after many viewings.
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These two scenes in addition to the alleyway collapse take my breath away also. There is something about a big strong powerful man crumbling that obviously intensifies the emotion. If I were to crumble like that, noone would even notice! Ha!
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Just need to post so I'll find this again...
SO many things to think about
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I aree. the last scene of them together in the argument , when Jack confesses Mexico to Ennis. ("I did once"), His jealousy of that encounter enrages Ennis to the point of threating violence towards Jack. This is a fierce and possesive love to the max.The look on his face and the stare down WHEW! But Jack stands his ground though,I would'nt have wanted to face that look . NO WAY.
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I aree. the last scene of them together in the argument , when Jack confesses Mexico to Ennis. ("I did once"), His jealousy of that encounter enrages Ennis to the point of threating violence towards Jack. This is a fierce and possesive love to the max.The look on his face and the stare down WHEW! But Jack stands his ground though,I would'nt have wanted to face that look . NO WAY.
I totally agree,here, it's the equal force that balance all this,becouse if a woman got that push like Ennis pushed Jack she would be flying down,not just falling....
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If we're talking about " possessive", I think the only time Ennis shows he's possessive is after Jack's admitted that he's been to Mexico - that's what the threat comes from, because he hates what Jack's done when he's thought of Jack as his although they're apart most of the time. It's always been a one-shot thing for him, and he's assumed, I think, that it's been the same for Jack - he doesn't at any point till the visit to the Twist ranch know about Randall. I don't include alma, Lureen and Cassie in this because they're an irrelevance to the central Jack/Ennis relationship.
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If we're talking about " possessive", I think the only time Ennis shows he's possessive is after Jack's admitted that he's been to Mexico - that's what the threat comes from, because he hates what Jack's done when he's thought of Jack as his although they're apart most of the time. It's always been a one-shot thing for him, and he's assumed, I think, that it's been the same for Jack - he doesn't at any point till the visit to the Twist ranch know about Randall. I don't include alma, Lureen and Cassie in this because they're an irrelevance to the central Jack/Ennis relationship.
I think you're right. As long as Ennis thinks that Jack is only cheating on him with women everything is ok, but as soon as he finds out that Jack has been with other men two things happen. Firstly, he gets possessive, angry because he wants Jack to be his and his alone. But the scarier thing that happens is that his ingrained homophobia comes out too - as long as it's only the two of them then Ennis can continue to believe that it's a one shot thing and that he's not queer, but if Jack has been with other men then he must be queer which would, in turn, either mean that Ennis was too, or at least that he has feelings for a queer man instead of just for his friend.
Hmmm. I think I may have wandered slightly off topic there, but I think the two things are impossible to separate.
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This is an excellent point! Ennis seems to retreat back to his old thinking with his comment"boys like you". As if he's saying it's only Jack who's queer, not him too.
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I have always wondered how far back did Ennis know about Jack's Mexico trips. From the movie, it looked like it was only during the last meeting. From the short story, it is plausible that he knew about Jack's excursions to Mexico before this, because it may have been included in what Proulx calls those things that were left unsaid for a long time between them (or something like this). Nonetheless, I suppose so long as things remained unspoken, then perhaps Ennis could have tolerated all this. Perhaps what drove him to jelous rage in the end was the temerity of Jack to bring it all out in the open...
Not sure...
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It also shows that Jack has given some thought about these "unspoken things" to me .When he says "I did once" he is nodding as if he wanted to answer Ennis question { better idea? }. to let Ennis know he's had a better idea for awhile now. I think this contributes to Ennis jealousy and rage. His demeanor when He said that was daring to Ennis. IMHO.
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It also shows that Jack has given some thought about these "unspoken things" to me .When he says "I did once" he is nodding as if he wanted to answer Ennis question { better idea? }. to let Ennis know he's had a better idea for awhile now. I think this contributes to Ennis jealousy and rage. His demeanor when He said that was daring to Ennis. IMHO.
I agree. It then becomes a mixture of possessiveness aggravated by guilt.
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Correct.You say it so well. Another scene when E nnis acts possesive is when he fixes the tent , then he fixes the herder situation for Jack. Tries to tell Jack about the "low starle point" of the horse. (for his saftey),Fixes the food situation,EVEN FIXED JACK'TRUCK! All for his little darlin.
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Those I think may come from his opinion ( justified, in my view) that he's more competent than Jack, as a judge of horses/horseman, herdsmand, etc.
The last scene is full of all the repressed anger of many years; it doesn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility that Ennis has at least sensed that Jack may not be entirely - what's the word? not monogamous, for sure - faithful to him? - before this. In the ss AP uses the word "admissions" whichs suggests that they've told one another things about their lives apart from each other that might be difficult to accept.
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Through these actions Ennis is saying how much he cares for his love. "He is mine I must take care of him" "want him to be happy, safe,content with me. Another reason he so hurt when he found out about Mexico. Ennis felt Jack belonged to him....AND ONLY HIM.
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Look carefully at the last argument scene...Ennis was CRYING when he had his back to Jack. You see a tear fall when he turns around, but he was crying before he turned around
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Yep, I've noticed that too, he's definitely crying, and so am I usually :\'(
Something that got me about this scene the other night is that Ennis, for all his anger and hurt, is actually quite accepting of Jack's "infidelity". Whether you agree or not that Jack was wrong to sleep with other men (personally, I don't blame him, but that's just my opinion), most people in Ennis's place would've ended the relationship right there (and if, as has been suggested, Ennis was looking for a way out of it,this was the perfect excuse), but Ennis doesn't finish it, he doesn't even threaten to finish it if it happens again, he just tells Jack he never wants to know about it, so he's really giving Jack the go-ahead to carry on doing it, so long as he, Ennis, doesn't find out. Whether Jack would've carried on, and whether he would've told Ennis the truth if he asked him, is another matter, but it shows how much Jack meant to Ennis, that he could hurt him so badly, but he would rather turn a blind eye to it and forgive him, than be without him.
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well said, Crimsonsky.
I just love this movie and all the comments &**)
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wow
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I'm not sure Ennis is accepting of Jack's "infidelity" - not wanting to know because it's too hard for him to handle is not the same as accepting - I think he doesn't want to know because he can't accept it. But one thing is sure - just as Jack couldn't quit Ennis, Ennis couldn't quit Jack. Even after knowing he went to Mexico and after telling him he couldn't stand it anymore, he still sent Jack the last postcard and wanted to meet him in Pine Creek. Ennis might say "let me be" but he can't go on without Jack, he knows that.
There's something else I've been wondering about: do you think that the fact Ennis was crying when Jack said all those hard things to him, was because he started to realize what he was doing to Jack and how much pain he inflicted on him? was he finally begining to understand Jack's POV?
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Love suffereth long...beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
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There's something else I've been wondering about: do you think that the fact Ennis was crying when Jack said all those hard things to him, was because he started to realize what he was doing to Jack and how much pain he inflicted on him? was he finally begining to understand Jack's POV?
What a great question, Keren. I can't believe I've never really thought about what the exact reason was for Ennis' tears! I've always put it down to the whole emotional experience between them at that moment. But now you've got me thinking about it, because when Jack says to Ennis "well try this one, and I'll say it just once", Ennis is all bullish and cold towards Jack, trying to prove to Jack that whatever he had to say to him wouldnt affect him. How wrong he was! If I'm right, Ennis starts to crumble emotionally when Jack says "you measure the short lease you keep me on..." as he turns away from Jack, but obviously still listening to what he was saying. It must have been hard to hear, but Jack needed to say those things to him. I think Ennis must have finally realised what the pain of constant separation was doing to Jack, which in turn was killing him too. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Aintfoolin, I think the "better idea" Jack was talking about when he said "I did once" is the part about when he asked him to start a cow and calf operation and have a ranch together, way back when they were under the stars together and Ennis never looked so in love. Jack is going way back here on this one! I'm not sure, but from reading your last post, it seems as though you may not have gathered that that is what he meant with the "I did once" comment. If I am wrong, I apologize.
IMO, the possessiveness was always an unspoken thing. Jack did have experience with other men. He was adamant that he was not queer from the beginning. I think he felt he was forced to hide that fact from Ennis or else Ennis may have been scared off. Ennis was comfortable with Jack because that was their little private world, their lifelong "one shot deal". For Jack of course, he was not exclusively Eniss' as Ennis was his.
Finding out otherwise in their last scene together, Ennis just snapped about "all them things he doesn't know", lashing out at Jack's sexuality in that moment...Boys like you. For all Ennis knew, it was their little one shot deal and they both were not "boys like that". That's where the years of betrayal hit him...and all these things combined, Ennis decided that he just couldn't stand it no more. To me though, that was said out of frustration because IMO Ennis was coming around.
"I have found the paradox, that if you love until it hurts, there can be no more hurt, only more love."
~Mother Teresa~ (A little off topic sorry, I got a thing for quotes!)
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Aintfoolin, I think the "better idea" Jack was talking about when he said "I did once" is the part about when he asked him to start a cow and calf operation and have a ranch together, way back when they were under the stars together and Ennis never looked so in love. Jack is going way back here on this one! I'm not sure, but from reading your last post, it seems as though you may not have gathered that that is what he meant with the "I did once" comment. If I am wrong, I apologize.
IMO, the possessiveness was always an unspoken thing. Jack did have experience with other men. He was adamant that he was not queer from the beginning. I think he felt he was forced to hide that fact from Ennis or else Ennis may have been scared off. Ennis was comfortable with Jack because that was their little private world, their lifelong "one shot deal". For Jack of course, he was not exclusively Eniss' as Ennis was his.
Finding out otherwise in their last scene together, Ennis just snapped about "all them things he doesn't know", lashing out at Jack's sexuality in that moment...Boys like you. For all Ennis knew, it was their little one shot deal and they both were not "boys like that". That's where the years of betrayal hit him...and all these things combined, Ennis decided that he just couldn't stand it no more. To me though, that was said out of frustration because IMO Ennis was coming around.
"I have found the paradox, that if you love until it hurts, there can be no more hurt, only more love."
~Mother Teresa~ (A little off topic sorry, I got a thing for quotes!)
Thanks gimmejack. I do agree that Jack was referring to the "sweet life" when he said "I did once".
Perhaps Ennis was comming around. I don't know. I wish this is indeed the case...
When it hurts, you know that you truly love.
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Love and pain are intimately linked; this scene demonstrates that. Perhaps out of this pain, and Ennis's realisation of what was happening to them both, somethng constructive might have come, but never had the chance. I'm sort of uneasy about the word " possessive" - there's a sense in which you wnat to posses the one you love, merge with them, become one - the other sense smacks too much of selfishness for me.
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I'm not sure Ennis is accepting of Jack's "infidelity" - not wanting to know because it's too hard for him to handle is not the same as accepting - I think he doesn't want to know because he can't accept it. But one thing is sure - just as Jack couldn't quit Ennis, Ennis couldn't quit Jack. Even after knowing he went to Mexico and after telling him he couldn't stand it anymore, he still sent Jack the last postcard and wanted to meet him in Pine Creek. Ennis might say "let me be" but he can't go on without Jack, he knows that.
There's something else I've been wondering about: do you think that the fact Ennis was crying when Jack said all those hard things to him, was because he started to realize what he was doing to Jack and how much pain he inflicted on him? was he finally begining to understand Jack's POV?
Maybe "accepting" was the wrong word to use, I'm not sure what the right word is that I'm looking for, "resigned" maybe...Ahdunno... :c) But what I mean is essentially what you said, that Ennis knows he can't leave Jack, so even finding out that he's been with other men isn't enough to even consider breaking up with him, so he has to find a way to deal with it, which is to just sweep it under the carpet. Most people would just walk away, or at least seriously consider it, and make it clear they wouldn't tolerate it happening again, but Ennis doesn't seem to even consider it, despite how hurt, angry and betrayed he feels.You're right to say that he doesn't want to know about it cause he can't handle it,but I think it's also because he knows it would mean the end of him and Jack,I really believe he wasn't joking, he would've literally killed Jack if he'd known all the details, or at best he would've had to walk away from him for good, and neither of those was an option. Hope you get what I mean :)
As for your question, I totally agree, I think Ennis realised where the whole conversation was going as soon as Jack says "I did once", that's where he turns it on to Jack by asking about Mexico, but it kind of backfires on him when Jack not only admits going to Mexico, but doesn't even show any remorse, and tells him the reasons why. I think Ennis realises that it would have never come to that if things had been different, and he's crying partly out of guilt for the pain he's Jack put through, and partly out of his own sorrow for the life they could've had,if only they'd done things differently :\'(
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"I have found the paradox, that if you love until it hurts, there can be no more hurt, only more love."
~Mother Teresa~ (A little off topic sorry, I got a thing for quotes!)
Thanks gimmejack. I do agree that Jack was referring to the "sweet life" when he said "I did once".
Perhaps Ennis was comming around. I don't know. I wish this is indeed the case...
When it hurts, you know that you truly love.
Yes, hurt and love...that's when we know were alive
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Here's what I get from The ( " I did once" ) statement. Jack has come to he conclusion that Ennis is just going to keep up the once or twice a year meetings and one parting is happening as they speak. I think Jack"s had enough. As he says there's just never enough time. never enough to spend with HIM. Seems there's always something or somebody to stand in their way on Ennis's end. I think Jack"s "better idea" was to find someone else to share his "sweet life" with.I'm not saying that he would<ve carried through with it but at this moment I feel this what Jack was saying Yes he still wanted his dream to come true but the constant stalling by Ennis was starting to wear thin.Always, IMHO.
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Here's what I get from The ( " I did once" ) statement. Jack has come to he conclusion that Ennis is just going to keep up the once or twice a year meetings and one parting is happening as they speak. I think Jack"s had enough. As he says there's just never enough time. never enough to spend with HIM. Seems there's always something or somebody to stand in their way on Ennis's end. I think Jack"s "better idea" was to find someone else to share his "sweet life" with.I'm not saying that he would<ve carried through with it but at this moment I feel this what Jack was saying Yes he still wanted his dream to come true but the constant stalling by Ennis was starting to wear thin.Always, IMHO.
Umm, I have to disagree with you on this one. If that was Jack's intention, why was he talking in a past tense? Ennis asks him "you got a better idea?" and Jack replys "I did once". if his better idea is to find someone else, then why is he talking in the past tense? past tense implys that he once had an idea, but given up on it by now. So, IMO, by saying "I did once" Jack refers to his idea to ranch up together with Ennis, have a little cow & calf operation and live a sweet life, only he's given up on this idea by now because he was rejected by Ennis so many times he realized it isn't going to happen.
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Yeah, I agree keren - "I did once" is a reference to the "sweet life" that Jack proposed way back in 1967. Ennis wouldn't have had to quit jobs or fight for time off to get together with Jack if he had taken Jack up on that and they'd had that little cow and calf operation.
Breaks my heart, that. If only.....
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Like most of Jack's ideas, never come to pass.......no such sweet life :\'(
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Here's what I get from The ( " I did once" ) statement. Jack has come to he conclusion that Ennis is just going to keep up the once or twice a year meetings and one parting is happening as they speak. I think Jack"s had enough. As he says there's just never enough time. never enough to spend with HIM. Seems there's always something or somebody to stand in their way on Ennis's end. I think Jack"s "better idea" was to find someone else to share his "sweet life" with.I'm not saying that he would<ve carried through with it but at this moment I feel this what Jack was saying Yes he still wanted his dream to come true but the constant stalling by Ennis was starting to wear thin.Always, IMHO.
Umm, I have to disagree with you on this one. If that was Jack's intention, why was he talking in a past tense? Ennis asks him "you got a better idea?" and Jack replys "I did once". if his better idea is to find someone else, then why is he talking in the past tense? past tense implys that he once had an idea, but given up on it by now. So, IMO, by saying "I did once" Jack refers to his idea to ranch up together with Ennis, have a little cow & calf operation and live a sweet life, only he's given up on this idea by now because he was rejected by Ennis so many times he realized it isn't going to happen.
I totally agree with you Keren. I always thought "I did once" was in reference to his desire for his sweet life with Ennis. And Ennis knew that too, IMO. :\'( :\'(
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I still think Jack was trying to tell Ennis he'd been thinkin about someone else to share his life with cuz Ennis immeditly launches in with the "you been to Mexico line indicating to me that Ennis is suspicious about Jack's fidelity.Ennis is threatened by this and as most of the time when Ennis this way he gets violent or in this case threatens Jack with vilolence if he ever found out for sure that Jack was Sleeping around on him.
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I still think Jack was trying to tell Ennis he'd been thinkin about someone else to share his life with cuz Ennis immeditly launches in with the "you been to Mexico line indicating to me that Ennis is suspicious about Jack's fidelity.Ennis is threatened by this and as most of the time when Ennis this way he gets violent or in this case threatens Jack with vilolence if he ever found out for sure that Jack was Sleeping around on him.
Hand in hand it all goes...The pain and frustration Jack held in could no longer be restrained. Jack was reminding Ennis that he once had a sweet life all planned out for them, ("I DID ONCE") now he has lots of things that Ennis would rather not know about hanging over him, yes including other men. Ennis quickly put 2 and 2 together about Mexico.
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And it's only after this that Ennis shows the sort of rage he exhibited with the bikers, or with Alma at Thanksgiving - when he goes up to Jack it's almost as if he's going to attack him as he did them. The rage, IMO, comes of knowing that Jack has gone looking for other men and that he's not the only man in Jack's life. Lureen doesn't concern him because at some deep level he knows she's no threat and could never take Jack away from him. In fact in a way Jack is safely protected by being married to her, as far as Ennis is concerned.
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And it's only after this that Ennis shows the sort of rage he exhibited with the bikers, or with Alma at Thanksgiving - when he goes up to Jack it's almost as if he's going to attack him as he did them. The rage, IMO, comes of knowing that Jack has gone looking for other men and that he's not the only man in Jack's life. Lureen doesn't concern him because at some deep level he knows she's no threat and could never take Jack away from him. In fact in a way Jack is safely protected by being married to her, as far as Ennis is concerned.
Thats a really interesting point welshwitch, I'd never really thought of that aspect of Jack's marriage to Lureen, but I think you are right. As long as Jack was married to Lureen, he would always be there, always waiting and longing to see Ennis again, the only thing that would keep him going. And yes, Lureen was never a threat to Ennis because Jack had offered to leave her ever since their reunion, so Ennis knew that the marraige was just a charade, but that was reassuring to Ennis. Its ironic though isnt it, that Jack stayed married to Lureen all that time, even though he would have given that up in a second if Ennis had agreed to that "sweet life", and yet when Ennis got divorced, it made no difference to their situation. I wonder why Jack never got divorced anyway, regardless of whether Ennis wanted to commit to Jack. :s)
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I assumed it was out of inertia - what would be the point? He had a home, a wife ( of sorts) and a son, plus a job from which he couldn't be removed ( if LD could have got rid of him he's have done it in a heartbeat); his marriage is a sort of protective smokescreen and lets him get away to see Jack without causing comment. Going off on a fishing trip with an old buddy wouldn;t have caused the good old boys much grief. If he dovirced Lureen he's be on his own and more vulnerable, and since Enn is, even when divorced, isn;t about to commit to him permanently there was no compelling reason to do it.
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I agree. the only thing that would compell Jack to divorce Lureen would be Ennis said " Comon let's go create that sweet life that you want right now!" Jack does use his marriage as a smokescreen, just as Ennis tried to do, I ask the question: Why did Jack"s marriage hang together and Ennis's did'nt?
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IMO, because Lureen was independently wealthy, or at least comfortable off, and din't want or need anything other than material things, which she had. Jack is a sort of add-on, as he appears in the scene after Bobby is born, and maybe a necessary counterweight to her father's dominance, as in the Thanksgiving scene. Jack is also handsome, fits in with her social circle, backs her up over the treatment of Bobby,is a good salesman - if she divorced him she would have to go a long way to find someone else who embodied all those things. He doesn't cause any trouble and when he goes off, apart from losing things and fussing, at least goes off to do something acceptable.
Crucially too Lureen doesn't KNOW about Jack and Ennis - she may suspect but she has no evidence. Alma does. Alma also resents being badly off and having no social life with a husband who periodically goes off withput her, who is taciturn, capable of violence and even if he's a good father quite prepared to put his own interests before his family's - how else would you see his refusal to get a better more stable job?
It all comes down to economics.
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So your saying that Jack stayed married because of the money?
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So your saying that Jack stayed married because of the money?
I don't think that's what Welshwitch was saying. I think she was saying that Jack stays married because it's a smokescreen - and Lureen has no reason to divorce him because she doesn't know about him and Ennis and she has no need to divorce him on any other grounds.
I agree with whoever said that the only reason for Jack to ask for a divorce would be if Ennis finally came round - you bet he'd ask pretty damn quick if that had happened.
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The money doesn't enter the question for Jack and Lureen as far as we know, except that she controls it. For Alma it is a problem, since she has two children to look after, but Monroe and Ennis's payments solve that problem.
I don't know, and I don't know whether Jack wouild know, what he's get if he divorced Lureen - I bet they had no community property thing in Texas then - but if Ennis had asked him to come he'd have dropped Lureen and the business and gone straight to him, regardless of the financial implications, I think.
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So your saying that Jack stayed married because of the money?
A marriage of convenience...the $$$ is just the icing on the cake.
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So your saying that Jack stayed married because of the money?
A marriage of convenience...the $$$ is just the icing on the cake.
I think you're right. Jack LIKED Lureen, but she LOVED him and pursued him. I also thought that maybe she got pregnant and they had to get married (hence L.D. Newsome's intense dislike for Jack). In the ss Jack said he never really wanted any kids, but nothing worked out the way he wanted.
And, Jack would have left Lureen if Ennis was willing.
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yep...in a heartbeat!