Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Kindred on Jan 22, 2006, 11:55 AM
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Prior to seeing the movie for the first time, my only exposure to the story was through reading reviews. Admittedly, I didn't know much about the story. However, I read that the first tent scene was described by Ang Lee as being either animalistic or primal. I can't remember the exact wording used, but I understood the implication.
Leading up to the scene, I was sure that Jack would be the "male" and Ennis the "female" of the encounter.
I was surprised that Ennis was the more sexually aggressive. Jack was the one that initiated the contact. He also is the one to likely have had past homosexual encounters. Ennis' personality on the other hand, seemed the more insecure and unsure of the two. I would have expected Jack to have to take charge in the sexual encounter and take the role of the male. However, both the book and the movie have Ennis being the aggressor. He helps take Jacks pants off and almost forcibly throws him face down before penetrating him.
This just seems out of character for Ennis. Jack seems the more dominant personality of the two, with Ennis being reserved. A first time sexual encounter would make anyone nervous, but a homosexual encounter (something Ennis had never had before) would make the situation even harder. Was it the pure lust of the moment?
In the second tent scene, Ennis this time approaches Jack first. However, his posture to me is more one of submission. He seems to relent to the emotions. In this encounter, Jack places Ennis on his back and takes the top, more dominant, position.
In the motel scene, we see Ennis laying in front of Jack with his head resting on his chest. Again, I see this as Jack being in the more dominant position.
The two sexual encounters between Ennis and Alma have Ennis being the aggressor. However, I simply interpreted this as him being the "man" of the relationship and expected to take charge.
Was the first tent scene unexpected to anyone else?
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I had read the short story...so no surprise there ;)
Jack was the one who cuddled, caressed Ennis' cheek, held his lover in his arms...
It is a difficult topic and I do not know how to phrase what I want to say...I guess I always saw Ennis as the "male", and the scenes with Alma just reinforced this idea.
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I think the book and the movie both try to subtly reinforce that neither is the "top" or "bottom" in the relationship.
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This just seems out of character for Ennis.
Not really. It's in perfect character for Ennis. It is less of a threat to his masculinity to partake in the more "male" sex role than the passive "receiving" end. In other words "pitching" is seen as being a more manly thing to do than "catching." It's been that way for eons.
Even in old Norse sagas, there are insults to that effect. No one thought less of the man who was the penetrator, but the penetratee was considered less of a man.
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Well the way Proulx wrote it was I think to make eh point the first time was a bit rough and not planned or anything. the way those two guys would be be like the first time. It fit
Ennis would take over like that, remember his temper, he loses it first. Jack would push things to the breaking and then
Ennis would take off.
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I saw the movie first. I also was surprised the way it turned out -- that jack initiated it, unbuckled first, but then... huh?! (I was in awe and ewww :P )
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Ennis being the *giver* not the *receiver* would not in Ennis's mind make hime *queer*. Many men feel this way.
J
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Yeah I can't see Ennis being the receiver the first time so this is brilliant really on Proulx's part although she might not have thought about it as much as we think.
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I guess my original thought was that Jack would take the more proactive role. I wasn't necessarily focusing on the giver vs receiver issue.
I guess the best way I can relate the issue in my own mind is that Ennis overcame any inhibitions in the heat of the moment.
edit: Also wanted to add, perhaps this also goes along with Ennis not wanting to look directly at Jack, even when they hug. Not seeing that Jack is a man might make it easier for Ennis? Possible?
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Disclaimer. I am not a guy.; )
I have read that an expereicned gay man who is seducing another man into a first sexsual experience, takes it, not gives it.
Sorry if this sounds vulgar. I do not mean it as such.
J
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To have initiative or to be more insistent don't mean to have an "active" role. I consider the Jack first behavior as the same of a "woman" in love with a reticent man..
I also see more feminine character in Jack than in Ennis, because his capability to listen and comprise, his sensitivity, his vivacity. It seems also that Ennis had a masculinity complex which may bring him to participate only with an "active" role... who can tell?
In others scene we cant say how it gone. My global impression is that it is impossible to say how much Ennis/Jack were doing sex..
coguaro
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I think this is an important issue, both for understanding BBM, and also for understanding real-life long term relationships, and one that may be discussed tastefully and discretely.
I was working for a year or so with a man in his 40s who had been gay all his life. I knew him well enough to ask him various questions which he was glad to answer. One question was, "In the average longterm relationship, who does what to whom?" He answered that that there are rare couples where one is always one role. Then he giggled and said, "For the majority of couples, each parterner takes turns in all conceivable roles. Its all so darn much fun, who would want to miss out on any of it!"
He did share with me that one of his early experiences was with a man who was so forceful, that it caused him to bleed. He made the man stop and leave. His partner could not understand why he never wanted to see him again. He sustained such an injury, that for the rest of his life, there was some tissue that was noticably in the way. Yet he never went to a doctor for the injury.
I once had occasion to talk to a surgeon who regulary treated problems of the large intestine. I asked him if, in his practice, he often saw injuries caused by sexual activity. His face became very somber, and he said, "Oh, I have seen patients who have literally destroyed themselves."
There was one famous political figure in New York, who died of AIDS within the past 10 years. I cant remember his name. He wrote a biography of his life. One point that he made was that he had only once in his life been the receiver, and it was painful for him, so he never repeated that experience, but for the rest of his life participated only in orally. His point was that he did contract AIDS from the oral sex, and therefore, it is a myth that it cannot be contracted orally. Obviously there are people who choose for one reason or another, to restrict their sexual activity to oral practices.
Obviously, people who choose to see Brokeback Mountain, who are not gay, may be quite ignorant of what takes place in a gay or lesbian relationship. While strictly speaking, it should not be necessary to have such an understanding to appreciate the movie, yet still some people may be curious, and a better understanding of such things may enhance they enjoyment of the movie and even promote greater tolerance among the straight community.
You know, I have two cousins, brother and sister, who grew up and lived all their lives on a dairy farm. The brother is 15 years older than my 58, and the sister is about 5 years older. She married a man and had a daughter with him. It was not her first marriage. He was a house and barn painter by trade, a very manly and personable fellow. But he was secretly bi-sexual. She live with that secret for years and told no one. Her husband got into trouble with drugs and alcohol, and got into serious debt. They divorced, and for spite, he began to flaunt his now openly gay lifestyle in the small farm town where everyone knew everyone else. When asked how she had felt during the marriage, she said it was ok as long as he always came back to her. I asked her brother, my cousin, how old he was when he realized that there are men who have sex with other men. He said he did not know that until he was 30, and just could not understand it.
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Quite honestly, my question is not out of curiosity regarding gay sexual relationships.
I see myself very much in Ennis and I'm straight. Given the personality type, given the situation, I don't think I would have acted in the same way. I think it would have taken active coaxing by the other person first, regardless of positions. However, I seem to be in the minority in this opinion.
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Well Annie Proulx is a poet too, so some of her writing isn't logical in a way. I think that is how she envisioned two guys first time, not necessarily right but I can see she was aiming at it not being romantic, and being quick.
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Given the personality type, given the situation, I don't think I would have acted in the same way. I think it would have taken active coaxing by the other person first, regardless of positions.
Reading the above sentence made me suddenly realize something. We know that at an early age, Ennis saw the gay man in a ditch, murdered and mutilated. Surely as the years past by, he must have given that a lot of thought. He must have become conscious of the details of homosexual activity. Perhaps no coaxing was necessary, because he had thought about it for years, as something forbidden. We can never know. Perhaps he fantasized about it. If such fantasy took place, then it would not have been an alien notion to Ennis, requiring coaxing.
Even Proulx, in her story, mentions that the act, although new to Ennis, did not take an instruction manual.
Just my speculation, but it is worth considering.
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Given the personality type, given the situation, I don't think I would have acted in the same way. I think it would have taken active coaxing by the other person first, regardless of positions.
Reading the above sentence made me suddenly realize something. We know that at an early age, Ennis saw the gay man in a ditch, murdered and mutilated. Surely as the years past by, he must have given that a lot of thought. He must have become conscious of the details of homosexual activity. Perhaps no coaxing was necessary, because he had thought about it for years, as something forbidden. We can never know. Perhaps he fantasized about it. If such fantasy took place, then it would not have been an alien notion to Ennis, requiring coaxing.
Even Proulx, in her story, mentions that the act, although new to Ennis, did not take an instruction manual.
Just my speculation, but it is worth considering.
Don't forget that in the short story, Ennis preferred anal intercourse with his wife:
"A slow corrosion worked between Ennis and Alma...Under her breath she said, 'Id have em if you could support em.'
And under that, thought, anyway, what you like to do don't make too many babies."
We get a hint of this in the movie, sometime early on in their marriage when he flips Alma over and she has a query look in her eyes. At that scene I thought that though he was with Alma his soul was elsewhere on BBM.
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I was not surprised with Ennis's role in the first tent scene. I was probably more surprised at how primal this scene was. Maybe I half-way expected Jack to do a little more coaxing. As it turned out, there was no need. Regardless of this being Ennis's first time (and I'm convinced it was) he knew what role he was going to take. I don't think Jack had a problem with the outcome. Ennis may have needed to process what happened the night before, but who noticed how "peacefully" Jack was sleeping the next morning?
Just an observation! ;)
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yes, he did have that "freshly f***ed" look on his face, didn't he?
. Been there done that - even in a tent.
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I was not surprised with Ennis's role in the first tent scene. I was probably more surprised at how primal this scene was. Maybe I half-way expected Jack to do a little more coaxing. As it turned out, there was no need. Regardless of this being Ennis's first time (and I'm convinced it was) he knew what role he was going to take. I don't think Jack had a problem with the outcome. Ennis may have needed to process what happened the night before, but who noticed how "peacefully" Jack was sleeping the next morning?
Just an observation! ;)
I had some surprise when I first read the short story - that was before watching the movie. All the surprise was indeed about how primal it was - but it made perfectly sense to me. We can't say if Jack had previous experience for sure (at least I always thought it was his first time when reading the book - while Gyllenhaal in interviews says that "it's implied that he had experience in the past" or something oike this) but I think we agree to a certain extent that Ennis didn't. Well the way it is narrated in the short story makes perfect sense to me. On the contrary, I was a bit skeptical with Ennis asking Jake "what are you doing?" in the movie (from what he does immediately afterwards, he probably had a very clear idea of what Jack was doing).
What I found extermely powerful in the short story was the repentine switch - Jake bring Ennis' hand "to his erect c*ck" and suddenly get "to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all
fours".
It is being discussed on some other topic if the "what are you doing" bit is indeed part of the screenplay (if I am correct, reports say it is - but I also remember the scene being commented during the shooting with abstracts from the screenplay posted on websites and the phrase was not there).
Anyway, I don't think we have anything related to some "male" or "female" roles of sort. Just don't get me wrong but this kind of perspective has a huge risk of having things seen as cliches. I can say that there is nothing weird that someone who takes the initiative (Jack) ends up "receiving" (sorry but I can't help smiling as I barely happened to see it described in such terms). In other words, Jack manages to have Ennis do what he wants him to do - don't think he is sorry at all to be in such a position.
But to make my rant stop, jus let me say we could speculate for hours or days on such a subject. I don't think usual "gay relationship and sexual habits" theories apply that much to the story and foremost that Annie had any interest in depicting a gay love story. This is really a story of two men who fall in love with each other, if this makes them "gay", fine, but there's much more than that.
Sorry for being so long :)
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But to make my rant stop, jus let me say we could speculate for hours or days on such a subject. I don't think usual "gay relationship and sexual habits" theories apply that much to the story and foremost that Annie had any interest in depicting a gay love story. This is really a story of two men who fall in love with each other, if this makes them "gay", fine, but there's much more than that.
Sorry for being so long :)
Well said. The primary characters are men, but the heart of this story is love. I don't know when I've seen it more beautifully and painfully depicted.
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yes, he did have that "freshly f***ed" look on his face, didn't he?
. Been there done that - even in a tent.
I just watched the first tent scene ... and nearly fell off my seat. :o I love how when Jack pulls Ennis's arm over his his waist and puts his hand (you know where) Ennis appears to be partly awake but still has his eyes closed. Then he settles down against Jack and (the part I love) suddenly you can see the exact moment it registers on his face as to where his hand is. He then just jumps sky high away from Jack ... or as a like to think of it "The mile high club" and Jack goes right after him. As for the sex part ... WOAH!!! I didn't see that much coming I mean I ... I ... i'm speechless. I really can't find words to describe that scene. I love the acting in the morning. Ennis had, as Rabjr said a morning after sex look on his face and Jack definately looked a bit sore between the thighs as he walked out of the tent.
All in all .... Woah!! and yeah Woah!! :o :o :-*
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yes, he did have that "freshly f***ed" look on his face, didn't he?
. Been there done that - even in a tent.
Just saw your reply a few minutes ago. I laughed so hard I'm sure I awoke my neighbors in the adjacent apartment. ;)
Thank you. I needed that! ;D
Jarrad
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yes, he did have that "freshly f***ed" look on his face, didn't he?
. Been there done that - even in a tent.
Yeah, I had that impression too. Good observation. Maybe that's the screensaver ...
No one has commented on Jack choking out at the crucial moment on the first night, from the story, "gun's goin' off." This was a jarring note when I read the book after seeing the movie 2 or 3 times. Felt a bit flippant maybe. (And by the way, supports the idea of Jack bringing some experience to the scene).
I got the exact opposite feeling from the movie.
The book and screenplay try to do different things. For me, the the movie has even less elaboration than the book, an even tighter focus on the love theme than the story has (despite expanding on life with the respective wives). And the feeling Ang decided on was one of high seriousness in the first sex scenes, I think, and rightly for the movie. That's what gives these scenes such drama and resonance for me. This isn't cheap sex. The still shots from the movie on some website -- you can miss it in the movie tho the feeling is established -- as Jack draws Ennis in on the second night, show Jack with such a look of seriousness and intensity on his face as he rivets his eyes on Ennis. He knows they could be letting themselves in for the big time.
So the movie and the book diverge here. Annie is done with the scene faster than the movie, and tosses the sex off more lightly. She has more space to operate in print and can change the pace and feeling later. Ang really only has one big cadence to work with in a 2 1/4 hour movie.
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I think "gun's going off" was excluded form the scene because as brief as it is it is too much dialogue in the scene and would have been a distraction form it.
again there is more said with a glance than one word. or three.
Segue into scenes: What about the smoking after in the motel? I thought it was stereotypical"
"do you smoke after sex?'
"I don;t know, I never looked"
Saw the movie last night with a manic depressive, am gettting over it (the manic depressive not tha movie.)
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Disclaimer. I am not a guy.; )
I have read that an expereicned gay man who is seducing another man into a first sexsual experience, takes it, not gives it.
Sorry if this sounds vulgar. I do not mean it as such.
J
That wold be an old husbands tale.
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AHHHH OK ,thanks,just heard it from some of my gay friends who had never been married. ; )
J
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Ok after watching the movie another time I noticed that "waht are you doing" is also what Ennis asks Cassie when she asks him for a foot massage - meaning the second time a partner takes action with him first - I quite like the similarity.
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Ok after watching the movie another time I noticed that "waht are you doing" is also what Ennis asks Cassie when she asks him for a foot massage - meaning the second time a partner takes action with him first - I quite like the similarity.
Slightly tangential to this topic, but yes, I like the repeated usage of certain phrases during certain situations.
For example: Alma says 'Come here' to Ennis when they start making love; Jack also uses this phrase on various occassions, I believe. Also, Jack is always heard saying 'It's alright' to Ennis during the love and fight scenes.
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Yes... I agree...
I think that Ennis lack of sexual/physcal initiative could also be interpreted from a general and not only, closely, from a sexual point of view.
Considering his difficulty to "give love" and to open his heart and mind to other people it is possible that by analogy he had some difficult to loss inhibition and to give spontaneously pleasure to other people. He need to be "activated" by someone to pull outside his wild element.
Baci
coguaro
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Let's not forget here a very important clue in the book about Ennis's status as a "top" or "bottom." There's a passage (and I don't have the book in front of me at the moment so I'm paraphrasing here) where Jack says to Ennis after they have had sex in the motel, "Must be all them years a horseback make it so goddamn good!" Jack is talking to Ennis here about Ennis' years on horseback. Jack and Ennis' sexual chemistry is very strong. Ennis is the top. Jack the bottom. Ennis treats Jack as if Jack is the submissive one. Do you remember (omitted in the film also) that Ennis calls Jack "Little Darlin'" -- something he only said to his daughters or horses (I believe) but not to his wife. Ennis only knows being a man in the traditional way. He conquers Jack. But Jack let Ennis take control of him sexually. Why else would he have not fought Ennis off of him in that first tent scene? Jack started to unbuckle his pants, but if you noticed in that tent scene, he was a little lower when facing Ennis - in a little weaker position - so it was easier to subdue Jack that way. This is not an uncommon phenomenon between gay men when determining who will take what role (at least in the beginning). Plus, in the book, Annie makes it clear that Ennis "would have none of that" when Jack started to head toward being the aggressor. I remember reading something saying that Ennis had never had intercourse with a guy but that "no instruction manual was needed." Clearly, Jack and Ennis had that healthy mix of "ying and yang" so that the complemented each other in love and in sex. This is such a brilliant story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ang really only has one big cadence to work with in a 2 1/4 hour movie.
Jason, I read several professional critics where they both said the movie was more than two hours long. You say the same thing. Yet, when the movie played here, it was only one hour and thirty-four minutes long.
Where did you see it? Was it in the United States? I am beginning to wonder if there is a version out there for small town redneck cities like the one I live in. ???
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The movie is 2 hours and 15 minutes. I'm not sure why the version you saw was shortened.
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Ang really only has one big cadence to work with in a 2 1/4 hour movie.
Jason, I read several professional critics where they both said the movie was more than two hours long. You say the same thing. Yet, when the movie played here, it was only one hour and thirty-four minutes long.
Where did you see it? Was it in the United States? I am beginning to wonder if there is a version out there for small town redneck cities like the one I live in. ???
Patriot, Kindred. Hi. It's so nice to talk about the movie, even if it's only about the durn length!
I saw (see! -- I'm only up to my 6th viewing, or 5th) BBM in Houston, in these United States. May I ask which rednecker town you're in? I think you got cheated. Maybe some movie house owner couldn't *stand* some of the scenes and dumbed it down a bit LOL...
Just seen the Oprah interview today with Anne, Michelle, Heath and Jake. Brought it all on again. How sweeter they were than I thought they could be. Did you hear Jake say that when shooting the movie began the four trailers got reduced to three early on when Heath and Michelle quickly paired off? So in the mornings Ang is outside one trailer doing tai-chi while coffee is being brewed in the Heath-Michelle household. Michelle was so cutely embarrassed.
And Jake walking around with a nasty cap on that they all gave him, which said "Jack Nasty."
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Reply to Hermes.
Good discussion of basics, Hermes. I thought you were going to conclude on the Ennis top, Jack bottom note, patently false. Even tho you invoke stereotypes, you do it fully aware (I hate stereotypes of course), I think you are quite correct in your discussion on all points. You rightly talk of the wonderful, real-life "mix."
Please let me know where Ennis says he'll "have none of that." Read the story twice and don't remember that.
"...no instruction manual needed" come from the story.
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Patriot, Kindred. Hi.
May I ask which rednecker town you're in?
I think you got cheated. Maybe some movie house owner couldn't *stand* some of the scenes and dumbed it down a bit LOL...
Hi Jason.
I live in a small working class town just outside of San Diego, California.
You know, your comment about the theater owner "dumbing" it down is funny. That is exactly what I am beginning to think. Can a cinema owner do that?
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You know, your comment about the theater owner "dumbing" it down is funny. That is exactly what I am beginning to think. Can a cinema owner do that?
No idea. I never go to movies. Why wd it be shorter? Maybe the owner thinks there were too many camping scenes. Maybe like the king in 'Amadeus' who complained that Mozart had "too many notes" in a composition, one has to ask immediately -- in parallel with Mozart's totally bewildered "which notes?" -- which scenes wd one cut from this wonderfully crafted, so satisfying movie?
Maybe he/she cut out all the cuss words -- make a big difference.
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Maybe he/she cut out all the cuss words -- make a big difference.
Maybe that is what she did. I don't know. Guess I won't know until the DVD comes out. I am not going back to the theater. There were only 5 of us in the theater and I was the only guy. I felt *very* uncomfortable, especially in this town. It was even very obvious the guy who sold me the ticket was making an effort not to look at me. But the guy who ripped the ticket did get a little grin on his face when he saw what movie it was for. I wasn't sure what kind of a grin it was so I felt uncomfortable about it.
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The movie is 2 hours and 15 minutes. I'm not sure why the version you saw was shortened.
A theater owner can't do that can they? If not, that would mean the studio put out several versions.
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Maybe he/she cut out all the cuss words -- make a big difference.
I am not going back to the theater. There were only 5 of us in the theater and I was the only guy. I felt *very* uncomfortable, especially in this town. It was even very obvious the guy who sold me the ticket was making an effort not to look at me. But the guy who ripped the ticket did get a little grin on his face when he saw what movie it was for. I wasn't sure what kind of a grin it was so I felt uncomfortable about it.
Sorry you were uncomfortable. Your story emphasises that the pockets of acceptance are sometimes very small. In Houston there were lots of people, the cinema was known for showing unusual movies and everything was fine.
SO you've only seen the movie once? Six viewings have each shown me more. Now I'm ready to just sit back after learning it, and enjoy it!
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Maybe he/she cut out all the cuss words -- make a big difference.
I am not going back to the theater. There were only 5 of us in the theater and I was the only guy. I felt *very* uncomfortable, especially in this town. It was even very obvious the guy who sold me the ticket was making an effort not to look at me. But the guy who ripped the ticket did get a little grin on his face when he saw what movie it was for. I wasn't sure what kind of a grin it was so I felt uncomfortable about it.
Sorry you were uncomfortable. Your story emphasises that the pockets of acceptance are sometimes very small. In Houston there were lots of people, the cinema was known for showing unusual movies and everything was fine.
SO you've only seen the movie once? Six viewings have each shown me more. Now I'm ready to just sit back after learning it, and enjoy it!
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Maybe he/she cut out all the cuss words -- make a big difference.
I am not going back to the theater. There were only 5 of us in the theater and I was the only guy. I felt *very* uncomfortable, especially in this town. It was even very obvious the guy who sold me the ticket was making an effort not to look at me. But the guy who ripped the ticket did get a little grin on his face when he saw what movie it was for. I wasn't sure what kind of a grin it was so I felt uncomfortable about it.
Sorry you were uncomfortable. Your story emphasises that the pockets of acceptance are sometimes very small. In Houston there were lots of people, the cinema was known for showing unusual movies and everything was fine.
SO you've only seen the movie once? Six viewings have each shown me more. Now I'm ready to just sit back after learning it, and enjoy it!
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I think "gun's going off" was excluded form the scene because as brief as it is it is too much dialogue in the scene and would have been a distraction form it.
again there is more said with a glance than one word. or three.
Segue into scenes: What about the smoking after in the motel? I thought it was stereotypical"
I think it was Jake Gyllenhaal who said Ang Lee is a master of silent conversation (something like that). And as I said before, "gun's goin off" struck the wrong note for me.
The smoking was OK for me. Those guys smoke all the time (everyone did in the 60's--I used to get to work from avery smoky bus smelling awful but thought it was normal!).
More to the point, Proulx in the story makes one of them, delightfully, draw the other's hand with cigarette to his mouth for a drag. We didn't see this in the movie. I think they missed the chance for an intimacy.
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I think "gun's going off" was excluded form the scene because as brief as it is it is too much dialogue in the scene and would have been a distraction form it.
again there is more said with a glance than one word. or three.
Segue into scenes: What about the smoking after in the motel? I thought it was stereotypical"
I think it was Jake Gyllenhaal who said Ang Lee is a master of silent conversation (something like that). And as I said before, "gun's goin off" struck the wrong note for me.
The smoking was OK for me. Those guys smoke all the time (everyone did in the 60's--I used to get to work from avery smoky bus smelling awful but thought it was normal!).
More to the point, Proulx in the story makes one of them, delightfully, draw the other's hand with cigarette to his mouth for a drag. We didn't see this in the movie. I think they missed the chance for an intimacy.
I wanted to see that too. "Well, at least we'll have the campfire"
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The movie is 2 hours and 15 minutes. I'm not sure why the version you saw was shortened.
I just went to the http://www.videoeta.com web site and looked up BBM. They say it is coming out on DVD in May and guess how long it is? You got it 1 hour and 34 minutes! Exactly what I saw in the theatre. I will never get to see the whole thing!
Oh, and by the by, while watching the awards tonight I did see one thing that I didn't see in the theatre; I never saw that Jack and Ennis's boss came up on the mountain to spy on them.
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Usually they include scenes in the DVD that are not in the released film not the other way around. I would put my hopes on anextended DVD MAYBE even with the authors intrviews.
Of course they could come out with the movie DVD in May and an extended one a year later re: LOTR.
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On the contrary, I was a bit skeptical with Ennis asking Jake "what are you doing?" in the movie (from what he does immediately afterwards, he probably had a very clear idea of what Jack was doing).
Maybe I'm not properly IT..anyway someone on another forum made me notice that, before this "what are you doing?" , after they jumped up,
Jack puts again Ennis (left, for the sake of precision) hand on his... you know (with his left hand...idem)
We cannot see the hands, but the movement is clear, for me...
this is the moment in which they are gazing each other
then Ennis says "what are you doing"..or something with same meaning , Jack takes off his jacket etc.
Has someone else noticed it?
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More to the point, Proulx in the story makes one of them, delightfully, draw the other's hand with cigarette to his mouth for a drag. We didn't see this in the movie. I think they missed the chance for an intimacy.
The closest one I can think of is sharing of the cigarettes at the later part of the movie. I initially thought it might be weed because the "cigarette" looked handmade... I am not a smoker but I have seen people passing weed cigarettes between them. The time-line should be towards late 70s and early 80s so I thought it might be a weed. ;)
Other clue was that Jack finally blurt it out, how much he misses Ennis. Something he probably wouldn't have done after repressing it for so long.
But they passed the whisky bottle between the two.... so it could be simply plain cigarette (with magical wonders)! haha. ;)
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I just went to the http://www.videoeta.com web site and looked up BBM. They say it is coming out on DVD in May and guess how long it is? You got it 1 hour and 34 minutes! Exactly what I saw in the theatre. I will never get to see the whole thing!
I checked the website.
*whisper* It's 134 minutes... (= 2 hours 14 minutes)
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hehehe ;D
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More to the point, Proulx in the story makes one of them, delightfully, draw the other's hand with cigarette to his mouth for a drag. We didn't see this in the movie. I think they missed the chance for an intimacy.
The closest one I can think of is sharing of the cigarettes at the later part of the movie. I initially thought it might be weed because the "cigarette" looked handmade... I am not a smoker but I have seen people passing weed cigarettes between them. The time-line should be towards late 70s and early 80s so I thought it might be a weed. ;)
Other clue was that Jack finally blurt it out, how much he misses Ennis. Something he probably wouldn't have done after repressing it for so long.
But they passed the whisky bottle between the two.... so it could be simply plain cigarette (with magical wonders)! haha. ;)
Their last trip together they're sharing a joint. Don't ask me how I know. Anyway, I didn't inhale. ::)
camom
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I believe it would actually be illegal for a theater owner to alter a film. It wouldn't be that easy to do without it being very noticeable, either. I think the mixup is the 134 minutes being interpreted as 1:34.
camom
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Jason, what theater did you see it at?
I've seen it twice in a theater in Houston. I'm from a small town near Houston, and the theaters around here only played it for a very short period of time. I used to go into Houston all the time, though, and I go to this one theater downtown that is well known for playing odd movies.
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Patriot, I think you may be confused. The movie is 134 minutes long.
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Their last trip together they're sharing a joint. Don't ask me how I know. Anyway, I didn't inhale. ::)
camom
I thought it was quite obvious..not that I know anything about joints really ::)
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Their last trip together they're sharing a joint. Don't ask me how I know. Anyway, I didn't inhale. ::)
camom
I thought it was quite obvious..not that I know anything about joints really ::)
Uh huh, yeah, me either. :P
camom
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Their last trip together they're sharing a joint. Don't ask me how I know. Anyway, I didn't inhale. ::)
camom
I thought it was quite obvious..not that I know anything about joints really ::)
Uh huh, yeah, me either. :P
camom
Well, I know it was a joint. It was in the short story :) :)
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Here is what surprised me about the first tent scene--that even though Ennis was just woke up and he was drunk that he thought (and I'm sorry if this is graphic) to spit on his hand and use it for lube. Now, for a person in that state who had "not yet had the opportunity" to be a sinner--what made him even think to do the spitting? This is really one of the only parts of the movie that sort of "bothers" me.
As far as the other conversation about people hurting themselves having homosexual sex--I can also confirm that it happens more often than probably most people think. My friend is a surgical assistant in a major city hospital. She sees about one homosexual man a week with anal problems that must be surgically fixed. Again, I don't want to get too graphic--but the injuries cause the muscles down there to stop working and then you can imagine what happens.
I have to say that it must be incredibly frustrating to know as a gay man that this type of injury can happen. It makes me wonder if gay men limit this type of sex because of the possible consequences? I can't imagine worrying about this as a woman--just thinking that too much sex with my lifelong partner could cause me serious medical injury is sort of unthinkable! What would a person do? Yes, there are other ways to show affection, but who wants to live with being limited?
Anyway, sorry if this offends anyone. I have an open mind and I am happy to hear any and all thoughts.
Cora
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--what made him even think to do the spitting? This is really one of the only parts of the movie that sort of "bothers" me.
Well, to be as clear as possible, spit is pretty common as lube when a guy is pleasuring himself and there's nothing to suggest Ennis would not have known this. At the moment of the sex with Jack then, logic, even in his drunken state, would suggest that spit might work.
As far as the other conversation about people hurting themselves having homosexual sex--I can also confirm that it happens more often than probably most people think. My friend is a surgical assistant in a major city hospital. She sees about one homosexual man a week with anal problems that must be surgically fixed.
Well, I have to be honest and tell you I have met many, hundreds, been with many, and have never knew this to be a common problem. Sorry, but there are ways to prevent injurys and most guys I think know how. Not saying that there are not any injuries, but haven't heard any reports, statistics or facts to support this to be a huge problem.
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Well, Cherry, I can guarantee you that I'm not lying about my friend and the hospital. I was asking an honest question and didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Not having watched a man masterbate before I didn't know about the spit. But I can tell you that when I have given hand jobs that no one ever suggested spit to me, and I've been pretty successful. So that's what I know as a straight woman trying to understand another culture. But thank you for responding anyway.
Cora
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Ang really only has one big cadence to work with in a 2 1/4 hour movie.
Jason, I read several professional critics where they both said the movie was more than two hours long. You say the same thing. Yet, when the movie played here, it was only one hour and thirty-four minutes long.
Where did you see it? Was it in the United States? I am beginning to wonder if there is a version out there for small town redneck cities like the one I live in. ???
It was a 2 hours 14 minutes each time I watched it.
Each time I watched it, I felt it was shorter every time. Time relativity maybe? Any Einstein here plize?
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Each time I watched it, I felt it was shorter every time. Time relativity maybe? Any Einstein here plize?
The time definitely flies by faster each time I see it. The first time, the BBM scenes seemed to drag a bit. But now (after 9 times) they don't last nearly long enough!
Especially the BBM flashback scene -- according to the short story, they stood there a long time. That scene makes it look like it was just a minute or so... :'(
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Well, Cherry, I can guarantee you that I'm not lying about my friend and the hospital. I was asking an honest question and didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Not having watched a man masterbate before I didn't know about the spit. But I can tell you that when I have given hand jobs that no one ever suggested spit to me, and I've been pretty successful. So that's what I know as a straight woman trying to understand another culture. But thank you for responding anyway.
Cora
oh, Cora, I never meant to suggest you were lying! I believeyou about your freind. I used to do on-site medical review in So california at various hospitals. I can honestly say I have reviewed thousands and thousands over a 10 year period. I have never seen what you have described. Again, not to say your lying, just saying I don't think it's a common thing. Thanks
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Their last trip together they're sharing a joint. Don't ask me how I know. Anyway, I didn't inhale. ::)
camom
I thought it was quite obvious..not that I know anything about joints really ::)
Uh huh, yeah, me either. :P
camom
Well, I know it was a joint. It was in the short story :) :)
Come on people, we're online here. There's no cops around, so let's fess up.
My name is Bram, and I am a giant pothead. When I saw them passing that joint, I got a little excited and had to go out and share a couple bowls with my friends as soon as the movie was over. We got stoned and discussed the movie, while eating hot pockets.
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Kindred, I read a very interesting posting made by Shieldmaid (possibly around Feb. 28th) on the use of Ennis' hat in this scene. It is great! I don't have the time to go looking for it right now, but if you do I think it you would find it was worth your time. I also was quite surprised at first at this scene, although not familiar with gay protocol, it did seem to me that if Ennis was to allow Jack to seduce him it would be unmanly. By turning it around and becoming the aggressor and being a little rough about it, in his eyes perhaps he was still a man. I thought that was so touching the next night when he approaches the tent, like he doesn't feel he should want this again but he does. And Jack's response is incredibly tender and endearing (Shieldmaid describes this much better than I do). I LOVE this scene. -Nancy
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First, a rant. It's really not polite or accurate to to refer to gay men as "women" or "taking the woman's role" because he's a bottom or has bottomed. It's just plain incorrect and maybe a little rude. I doubt many men consider themselves women because they've "taken the passive role" -- another phrase that's absolutely ridiculous. It sounds like something out of the 50's. And seriously, do women consider themselves "passive" during sex? To me, both parties are actively participating in the f*cking. Just because Jack takes it doesn't make him a woman, and makes him no less a participant. I don't see why it surprises anyone that Jack came onto Ennis ("the aggressor") then bottomed.
The story clearly states that it's "clear slick and a little spit". So there was some spit and the natural lubrication produced by the penis. Maybe it's not ideal, but it worked. Analyzing Ennis' prior masturbatory habits, whether he used spit or not...well, why?? It depends on the person. Some people don't even like lube when they jerk off. I don't think the details of the act necessarily reveal some deep psychological secret, other than the fact that these guys were hot and horny for each other, and they knew what to do about it.
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I think there is not "female" in their relationship. :-\\
They are just two men in love. and they don't need "female".
And what about "top" and "bottom" - first time top was Ennis, but what about second night? I think Jack was top taht time. :)
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I think there is not "female" in their relationship. :-\\
They are just two men in love. and they don't need "female".
And what about "top" and "bottom" - first time top was Ennis, but what about second night? I think Jack was top taht time. :)
OT: Hello Anne. There is a whole thread devoted to the sexual roles that they possibly filled. Do take a look at this thread when you have the time. It might interest you! :)
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thanks. :)
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Ennis was always the male in their sexual relationship, it's clear. He would never bottom for Jack as he would never have sex with another man.
"I hear what they got in Mexico for boys like you."
About FNIT, Jack would be male or female, but he was very satisfied next morning.
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Ennis was always the male in their sexual relationship, it's clear. He would never bottom for Jack as he would never have sex with another man.
"I hear what they got in Mexico for boys like you."
About FNIT, Jack would be male or female, but he was very satisfied next morning.
I disagree. I don't believe they had set "roles" for their sexual and romantic relationship. I have read too many things about how people thought it was only one way, but I don't see it that way at all. I think they were both versatile, for lack of a better term. I think it was only that way the first time because Ennis didn't know what he was feeling at that moment, and was half drunk. I believed SNIT showed that that Ennis wanted to experience much more with Jack, and it was the first of many times he was "bottom". He so easily lets Jack get on top of him. He wouldn't let a woman do that, but with Jack it felt natural. I hate to use the terms "male" and "female" and "top" and "bottom" to describe the sexual relationship they have. With two men, a homosexual relationship there is no "male" and "female". And in a heterosexual relationship, due to men and women having certain different anatomy, women therefore are always in a certain way, "top" and "bottom" mean something else in a heterosexual relationship, but that does not make women inferior and it doesn't mean that women are passive all the time. Caressing and nurturing your lover doesn't mean it is a "feminine" thing to do. And Jack in SNIT, behaved in a way a lot of men do when they are with a woman.
By "female", I assume you mean who was the one being penetrated? With two men, since they have the same sexual anatomy, there isn't just one way, and I believe that a lot of couples will take turns so to speak. While some couples might have set "roles", I don't believe that the majority of homosexual couples do that, and I don't believe that Ennis and Jack were set in roles. I believe there were many times after that first tent scene where Ennis was penetrated...I think Jack was on "top" in more ways than one in that relationship...I just got that feeling especially by the way Ennis behaved about things sometimes, and how much he fought his feelings. He was so vulnerable in so many ways. This does not mean that one of them was inferior to the other, it only means that Ennis didn't fully accept who he was, while Jack accepted himself and was a much more confident person. When Ennis was around every person he ever met he hid it so well, but with Jack he just couldn't. Jack just had that uncanny ability to sense what Ennis was really like. I do believe that Ennis and Jack switched "roles" quite often, whenever they wanted to. I liked it how they showed Jack on top of him in the second tent scene, leading him gently, it symbolized Ennis finally giving in to his feelings, and Jack showing him how to make love, and showed him that his feelings and desires were okay. Ennis felt very safe with Jack to bring all those repressed feelings and desires to the surface.
That second night, Ennis let Jack seduce him, where the first night, he was battling with himself. The first night the reason he did not want to be in the tent was because he knew how he felt about Jack. He knew in his heart that he was attracted to this man...and he hated himself for it because he was taught that it was so wrong and the worst thing in the world. When Jack made the sexual advance, Ennis was terrified, because he knew what he felt, but he didn't want to be that...he didn't want to be a queer. By doing what he did to Jack in FNIT, it was his way of trying to still believe that he wasn't queer. He knew for the past month, Jack had been pursuing him, Jack was trying to initiate that relationship, chasing him, and trying to get him, to Ennis, with his internalized homophobia and self-loathing, having been conditioned by a society that set certain roles for men and women, Ennis saw it as "unmanly"...that he was being pursued as if were a woman. So in that drunken moment he did what he did in a desperate attempt to switch the roles around. But that second night, it was completely different. He let Jack be the pursuer, he gave into Jack, let himself be "caught" by Jack so to speak. He let Jack take the reins that night, and the rest of that wonderful summer (a symbol of this is the last day when Jack takes the lasso, and ropes it around Ennis), he cast aside all that he'd been taught and lived a private world that he created with Jack. To Ennis that summer, it was like the outside world ceased to exist, it was just him and Jack in their own heaven, and he felt safe letting Jack see his real self and let all the rules of society be damned.
Alone with Jack, when he thought no one was watching, Ennis wasn't that "tough guy" anymore. Jack sensed that about him from the moment he first saw him outside Aguirre's office. So from day one, he started chipping away at that exterior, and he made progress. A month later he felt that he'd made enough progress to make a sexual advance, and that resulted in FNIT, but the next night, when Ennis came into the tent on his own, and wanted Jack to show him what to do, that must have been the happiest moment of Jack's life. Here was the man Jack wanted more than anything else in the world, and he was finally right there in Jack's arms. It was what Jack had wanted to do the night before, and from the moment he met Ennis, and here he was and it was finally happening. To be Jack in that moment must have been pure heaven, you can see it in his eyes how his heart must have been leaping with pure joy.
Ennis fought against his feelings for twenty years, but he was definitely not the macho guy he pretended to be around everyone else when he was with Jack. He knew Jack could see right through that facade. There is also that part in the short story at the motel where Jack makes a remark about how it's got to be all the time Ennis spent riding horses that made the sex feel so good, heavily implying that what he was talking about was certain muscles of Ennis's anatomy that were firm and tight due to exercise he got from riding horses. That's the way I understand that line, that Jack was talking about Ennis's butt muscles, and there's only one way that Jack would know how tight those were. That's just one example that Jack and Ennis didn't have set roles, they both gave and received, so to speak. But the fact that Ennis never had sex with any other man, it doesn't really mean much at all. Ennis never met anyone, male or female, like Jack. For Ennis was a very introverted person, who did not really have any friends, and did not make connections with people easily. He was a complete loner really. It had to be the right person, and the only right man he met with Jack.
He just didn't have the opportunities to ever meet anyone else like that. Jack came into his life at just the right time, and brought the real Ennis out from hiding. It could have very well have been a similar man, but it happened to be Jack, and after that Ennis's heart was taken. He wasn't going to even think about being with anyone else. He was just a very faithful person, and like Jack said he could survive on a "couple of high altitude f's a year"...meaning that Ennis was okay with having sex just several times a year, while Jack was a person who needed it more...hence he went looking for it with other people. Jack would even enjoy sex with a woman like how he said "I like the direction this is going" when Lureen came on to him. Jack had a higher libido I guess. Also the relationship with Cassie was a sham from the start. Ennis didn't want her, but she came on to strong, and he passively gave in to it because it served as a good cover. I believe the only reason he had the relationship with Cassie was because he was so paranoid about people in Riverton figuring out that he's gay.
This was after that Thanksgiving fight with Alma, where she told him that she knew the truth about him, and for certain after that day, the rumors about Ennis would be going around in a small town where everyone knows everyone else's business. Alma obviously told Monroe, and so you can imagine what people around Riverton were saying about Ennis behind his back...he knew people suspected because they would look at him weird whenever they saw him. So Cassie, who had no idea about the rumors about Ennis, made a good cover, it was a good way to show the townspeople that the rumors weren't true...even then Ennis was always uncomfortable around Cassie and would rather not even be with her, she just wouldn't leave him alone, and Ennis was not the type of person to really be assertive (another truth that Jack knew about him all too well). Ennis could only play tough guy with Alma, because she was a very passive, docile woman (and even she, after she saw him and Jack kissing, she was just rolling her eyes at his macho guy act, like when she walks away and doesn't listen to him when he tells her to serve dinner), or with some random moron bikers saying vulgar things because they didn't know who he was, he was anonymous to them. With everyone else, Ennis was quiet as a rabbit, and with Jack, he was a person who was entirely different, whom only Jack knew and got to see, the lovely person that Ennis hid from the world, the gift that only Jack got to have.
Also that last meeting when Ennis threatens Jack...it's a multitude of things..."boys like you"...it meant that Ennis still was in denial about who he was, even after twenty years, this happens to a lot of gay men who grow up in such homophobic societies, especially ones whose fathers show them and teach them what Ennis's father taught him. He also was upset that Jack was being unfaithful to him, because he loved Jack deeply though after all those years still had self-doubt and doubt about what he really meant to Jack. He was still afraid that he was nothing more than just a sex buddy to Jack. He couldn't keep up the angry facade for long, as we saw how he collapsed and cried in Jack's arms...Jack knew this. This is why he was so patient with Ennis all those years. He knew how fragile and vulnerable and sensitive Ennis was inside underneath that hard shell exterior that he showed the world to protect himself. I do agree with what what someone else said that the short story and the film do an excellent job of showing and reinforcing the fact that neither one was exclusively "top" or "bottom". I think it's a safe bet to say that Jack was the "top" one more often, given what we see in other scenes, and given that Ennis is a more passive person. The way Ennis was with Alma is because he wanted to assert himself to her as "the man"...with Jack he obviously, as we saw in SNIT, that was far from the real Ennis. Ennis around other people was always overcompensating because he knew the truth about himself and he was so afraid other people would realize he wasn't the macho guy society wanted him to be.
He was terrified of people even suspecting about him being queer...to the point where in the scene after his divorce, when Jack wants to caress his neck and face, he quickly removes Jack's hand, because he's afraid of his daughters or other people driving along on the road seeing that...only when he was completely alone with Jack would he allow Jack to do everything he wanted with him. Everything was done in private, either behind closed doors in a hotel or cabin or up there on a mountain with the two of them camping. That is why the reunion kissing scene is so poignant. It's the only time we see Ennis behave the way he did in public with Jack, for that moment, Ennis's feelings and emotions were so overwhelming that he forgot to be afraid of society and other people. He forgot to think about that someone might see. I too, was surprised by the first tent scene, as Jack throughout the entire story is clearly always the pursuer, but then I realized it was just Ennis being in denial of his feelings, and his desperate attempt to convince himself that he isn't gay. Hence he rides off the next morning without even saying anything to Jack, he was so afraid of what he felt for Jack.
After having the whole day to think about it, that night he finally gives in to his feelings for the first time and goes in to the tent. He figured that no one would ever know about what he was about to do with another man, and he could just finally give in to Jack. I think Jack knew that Ennis would come into the tent that night, because he understood Ennis like no one else could. Hence, Jack was waiting for him shirtless, and doesn't look surprised when Ennis comes in all shy and blushing. The way he takes his hat out of his hand and tells him it's alright shows how patient and gentle he was with him, and made him feel safer. I don't believe that either one gave being "top" or "bottom" much thought after that first night, they just did whatever they felt like doing, sometimes it was Jack, other times it was Ennis. I to also believe that was one of the main reasons Ennis was so afraid, afraid of those feelings he had for Jack, feelings he couldn't help but have. When he was around Jack, he wanted to yield to him, Jack saw that his big, macho tough guy act was nothing but a sham, he saw right through it from the first moment, and it crumbled quick. With Jack Ennis wanted to behave in a certain way and do things he would never do with anyone else...that's why he was so afraid of "this thing"...and partly why he tells Jack at the end "it's because of you I'm like this"...blaming Jack for making him this way...this person who is nothing like that macho man that he pretended to be in public, this person who was so far from what society told him a man should be. He couldn't be that "manly, masculine" role with Jack, and whenever he was with Jack, he didn't want to. He would just go with what his heart wanted, and where things led them.
That frightened the homophobic part of Ennis that this man could make him feel that way. He couldn't understand that Jack didn't make him that way. He was that way innately, and Jack only forced that hidden person to come out. It was much easier for the self-loathing Ennis to just pin the blame on Jack. Another reason why I believe Jack was on top in more ways than one. Definitely a lot of Ennis's fears came from the way he was around Jack, and what he allowed Jack to do...he couldn't come to terms with why he felt the way he did and why he had the desires for Jack to do certain things to him. While he was with Jack, he would enjoy every moment of lovemaking, and it felt natural to him, he wanted to do everything with Jack, there were no rules in their own private world.
But as soon as he parted from Jack, as soon as he had to get back to living in the midst of society and pretending to be what they wanted him to be, the old thoughts would plague him again that there was something wrong with him, hence his internal conflict that he was not the "real man", and hence the overcompensation of playing the Marlboro man image in front of Riverton society. Bottom line is that Ennis was very complex, the person he was with Jack was very different from the person he pretended to be in front of everyone else. His macho facade could never hold for long when he was in Jack's loving presence. Therefore, I feel that SNIT was just the first of many times Ennis was "receiving" and experienced Jack being "top", but sometimes Jack would want to be "bottom", and vice versa. Neither one was more "dominant" than the other, and I don't believe either one of them was submissive. It's impossible to count how many times they had sex and know exactly how many times who did what during all the years of their relationship, but I would say that it was about half-and-half. I think the film did a good job of showing that, by showing what was necessary to show and letting the viewer figure out the rest. Neither one "conquered" the other, and there were no "traditional" roles. They were two men who made love whichever way they felt like at the moment. I don't believe either one did one "role" more often or less often than the other.
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Hi everyone! I've loved all your opinions in this thread, this scene is pretty intense <^( I've noticed two things:
1) have you seen in the darkness how Ennis' hand is touching Jack's hand in the darkness( well, what we can see is a sleeve, but it is Ennis' sleeve) little details that make my heart melt {b} to be more precise, this is when Ennis is ^-^
Have you noticed also that the next morning Jack is washing Ennis' shirt?? {b}
2) In the second tent scene, what does Jack exactly say? It's alright (x3) I've seen it in spanish and he whispers"I love you".... I don't listen "I love you" in the original version.
}s{