Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: dirtbiker on Nov 01, 2006, 11:40 PM
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I was watching some BBM scenes at the gym today on my portable vid player and was wondering what if Ennis said yes to Alma Jr. moving in with him. Would that even be possible? He doesn't have custody of her so it would take a miracle for Alma/Monroe to agree to it anyway. What do you brokies think?
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My bet, Alma knowing the thruth about Ennis & Jack relationship, she would have refused Junior moving with her dad. You know the, you don't go there for fishin'- Jack Nasty scene? I could sense a huge battle about this.
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Yes, Ennis did not have custody over her, so that would make it very problematic for her to move in with Ennis without Alma's consent.
The question therefore is: would Alma have ever consented to have Alma Jr. move in with Ennis?
On one hand, Alma perhaps (just perhaps) resented the two children as reminders of her failed marriage with Ennis? Clearly, both girls loved Ennis, and Alma may have resented the fact that she had to play bad cop to the two childern while Ennis reaped all their love.
But on the other hand, I do think the children loved both their parents, and Alma loved them enough to fight for custody of both of them. Alma may have been genuinely concerned about whether Ennnis was even fit to raise the children in good "moral" standing -- given what she knew about Ennis and Jack.
And there was the question in Alma's mind about whether Ennis was responsible enough to take care of the kids -- given that his job was so erratic and that it required him to be away from home for relatively long stretches.
I personally think that Alma would have refused Alma Jr. permission to move in with Ennis. Alma probably thought that, for all her own failings, she was able to provide best for her two children and raise them to be sensible, God-fearing members of society.
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But on the other hand, I do think the children loved both their parents, and Alma loved them enough to fight for custody of both of them. Alma may have been genuinely concerned about whether Ennnis was even fit to raise the children in good "moral" standing -- given what she knew about Ennis and Jack.
Playing devil's advocate, there are people who don't necessarily love their kids even though they will fight tooth and nail for custody - it's more a matter of power and control, and property claim...
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You are right. It's anything to get back at the other person, no?
I don't know if Alma was the type. But she could very well be indifferent to Alma Jr. and Jenny -- at least when compared with the love for her child with Monroe...
But I sense that she did care for them -- perhaps as much as Ennis cared for them. Do any of you share the same opinion?
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Well Monroe would have no say over Junior- that would be exclusively Ama's decision. I'm not sure that Alma would have agreed to it had Ennis said yes. I'm kind of mixed on how much Ennis' relationship with Jack would have come into play- she could have outed him all over town or trashed him up and down to the children in some attempt to turn the kids against him- but she did neither wether or not that was out of caring for him or trying to hide her own shame is the question. I think her main concern would have been that Ennis would hardly ever be around with the long hours etc. I do believe that Alma loved her girls and I don't believe she tried to tarnish his image to them- Junior comes to him wanting him to come to her wedding- So I think Alma was able to keep her feelings towards Ennis and his betrayal away from the girls; I'm sure she wasn't singing his praises but I don't believe that she was out to knock him down to his daughters.
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LJN, somehow I feel the same way: that Alma didn't go out of her way to alienate Ennis from his children. And I did take it at face value Alma's comment about their worrying about him remaining single.
I don't think there was anything that would lead us to conclude without a doubt that she did not love her children. Alma showed great strength and patience through it all. I think she did this partly for the sake of the children.
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Often when a child reaches around 14 it becomes their choice which parent to live with.
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I'm not sure that would have held good for Wyoming in the sixties or early seventies...
But once Ennis stopped paying child siupport and the girls left school, maybe went to college, it would probably be up to them where they settled - when they were younger Alma had custody and could provide them with a home and care; Ennis points out he couldn't and given the nature of the jobs he does that's probably true.
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It was difficult to get around Ennis's isolation and difficulties. I don't think he would have wanted to have the 2 children live with him -- because he knew that he would not be able to cope. Sure, if he had the time and the means, it would have perhaps been a bit different.
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This would indeed be a battle, although Alma Jr seems mature enough to make up her own mind. But the slightest chance that Alma Jr. would be exposed or influenced by Jack in any way would send Alma into a tizzy fit for sure. Besides if Ennis would have said yes, then Jenny, the other daughter would probably want to come too. IMO even though Ennis loves his daughters with all his heart He is not prepared mentally to take on the responsibility of a teenage girl and all the problems that entails. He is not a patient man!
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You brought up an interesting point, aintfoolin. If the daughters moved in with Ennis, would that have spelled an end to Ennis seeing Jack, or at least spell the end of any possibility of a shared life?
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I suppose if they were thee he could tell them the same thing about fishing trips as he'd done before - there's no indication despite the Thanksgiving scene that the girls know about Alma's remarks. The main problem would be that the girls couldn't just be left to their won devices for a week at a time, surely?
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I also wonder what Jr. meant by Alma & Monroe being "awful strict" on her. Do they restrict her going out with boys? Would Ennis do the same?
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I suppose if they were thee he could tell them the same thing about fishing trips as he'd done before - there's no indication despite the Thanksgiving scene that the girls know about Alma's remarks. The main problem would be that the girls couldn't just be left to their won devices for a week at a time, surely?
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Good point, welshwitch. Their presence never stopped Ennis seing Jack before the divorce. But I just wonder whether the fact that Jr. and Jenny are now older makes a difference. After all, they probably would be more curious about Jack and his dealings with their father...
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I thought the "awful strict" comment might have something to do with Alma now being settled in suburban "bliss" with Monroe and wanting to conform to suburban norms. She was divorced herself and maybe wants to look more conventional than the conventional, if you see what i mean. Thus she cracks down on Alma Jr, who is at an age when she might start running around. There's also the fact that Alma's pregnant and perhaps doesn't want Monroe to see her as an over-indulgent mother, which might bode ill in his eyes for the child she is having with him. And of course pregnant women ( about whom I know so little!) may find their feelings about their own maturing children change when they themselves are pregnant again.
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I always thought that Alma Jr's motive was more that she was worried about Ennis being lonely,rather than because she was unhappy with Alma and Monroe, just by the way she accepts his refusal straight away. Alma says that she and the girls worry about him being on his own, but Junior tells Cassie that he's not the marrying kind, so she maybe feels that it's up to her to take care of him, or at least she wants to reassure herself that he's capable,and content enough, to take care of himself. I can quite believe that Monroe and Alma probably were quite strict with her, as others have said above, but if Junior was that unhappy I think she would've tried harder to persuade Ennis, or being a teenager, she would've sulked about not getting her way, but she just says she understands and seems to accept it. Then again, she already knew that Ennis worked long hours, etc, so maybe she didn't really expect him to agree in the first place, or maybe she just inherited Ennis's "if you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it" approach to life, but my feeling whenever I watch that scene, is that she's more concerned for Ennis than herself.
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I always thought that Alma Jr's motive was more that she was worried about Ennis being lonely,rather than because she was unhappy with Alma and Monroe, just by the way she accepts his refusal straight away. Alma says that she and the girls worry about him being on his own, but Junior tells Cassie that he's not the marrying kind, so she maybe feels that it's up to her to take care of him, or at least she wants to reassure herself that he's capable,and content enough, to take care of himself. I can quite believe that Monroe and Alma probably were quite strict with her, as others have said above, but if Junior was that unhappy I think she would've tried harder to persuade Ennis, or being a teenager, she would've sulked about not getting her way, but she just says she understands and seems to accept it. Then again, she already knew that Ennis worked long hours, etc, so maybe she didn't really expect him to agree in the first place, or maybe she just inherited Ennis's "if you can't fix it, you've gotta stand it" approach to life, but my feeling whenever I watch that scene, is that she's more concerned for Ennis than herself.
I agree. Jr. seemed unhappy, and she had hoped that Ennis would have offered her a way out. And yes, I do think that she half-expected Ennis to say no. In fact, Ennis started to quibble in the end, but Jr. put a stop to all forms of equivocation on Ennis's part. Was she angry or disappointed? Or did she sort of expect it and was resigned? It seemed to me that in the end of the scene, Jr. was angry, but she was also quite accepting and considerate. Marvelous acting by Kate Mara.
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I agree. Jr. seemed unhappy, and she had hoped that Ennis would have offered her a way out. And yes, I do think that she half-expected Ennis to say no. In fact, Ennis started to quibble in the end, but Jr. put a stop to all forms of equivocation on Ennis's part. Was she angry or disappointed? Or did she sort of expect it and was resigned? It seemed to me that in the end of the scene, Jr. was angry, but she was also quite accepting and considerate. Marvelous acting by Kate Mara.
Yes, you're right, Ennis starts to say something like "You know I would if..." and Junior just cuts in and says "It's ok Daddy, I understand". She doesn't say it in a despondent or sulky way though,and she smiles at him when he drops her off, so I took it as her saying "I understand it's not that you don't care, and I understand that you actually might prefer to live on your own, for whatever reasons, but as long as you understand that I'd love to live with you if you wanted me to, then it's cool" Something along those lines, anyway :)
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And did you notice that Ennis seemed to have understood Jr.'s disappointment and resignation?
Two details that were beautifully done:
Kate Mara's forced smile when saying goodbye.
Heath's projection of earnestness, confusion, and regret after she said goodbye.
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And did you notice that Ennis seemed to have understood Jr.'s disappointment and resignation?
Two details that were beautifully done:
Kate Mara's forced smile when saying goodbye.
Heath's projection of earnestness, confusion, and regret after she said goodbye.
Yes, again you're so right, they both understand each other perfectly, and both actors capture that beautifully. You get a real sense of the closeness and unconditional love that Ennis and Junior have for each other, not just in that scene, but in the bar, and of course the final scene, it's a big comfort to know that Ennis had Junior in his life after Jack died, she's the only person in his life, apart from Jack,who understood him, accepted him, and loved him unconditionally :)
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If there was a saving grace in Ennis's marriage with Alma, it was their 2 children. For Ennis, they were what was left after Jack died.
I loved the movie for putting more flesh on the character of Jr. This scene and the others involving Kate Mara were beautifully done, and effectively conceived and realized. These "expansions" of the short story are exmaple of how the movie "improved" on the original material with the intent of adapting it for cinema.