Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: City Slickin' Cowboy on Jan 23, 2006, 08:47 PM
-
I found the characters of Ennis and Jack simply adorable in their own respects. Let's face it...from the beginning of the story it's clear neither character is an academic scholar. I'm not making this statment as some sort of attack. It's just fact. Despite this knowledge I found myself absolutely captivated by these characters (especially that slow and sexy draw of Ennis!).
Over the years I have met guys similar to Ennis and Jack. I just want to know from the BBM community what is their appeal? I know what I find appealing. I just want to find out from others what they found appealing about these types of guys.
-
I love strong good looking guys that can do things that are manly, such as being a cowboy,a fisherman,a soldier,a hunter,a builder, etc.
I have always been attracted to a man that is big and quiet and strong and kind.
As for brains you would be surprised how smart some of these guys are. I married one, and even though I have a few degrees and am considered smart and successful and my husband only had one year of college and is not as sharp with the pencil, we even out great!I am *out there* and quick tonot do too much in the physical work. He is slow and steady and gets the job done perfectly....
I like guys that spend a lot less time in the mirror than me.; )
Anyway I am not into metrosexsual men.
J
-
I found the characters of Ennis and Jack simply adorable in their own respects. Let's face it...from the beginning of the story it's clear neither character is an academic scholar. I'm not making this statment as some sort of attack. It's just fact. Despite this knowledge I found myself absolutely captivated by these characters (especially that slow and sexy draw of Ennis!).
Over the years I have met guys similar to Ennis and Jack. I just want to know from the BBM community what is their appeal? I know what I find appealing. I just want to find out from others what they found appealing about these types of guys.
Young, dumb and hung?
-
Jack: because he loves openly and sensitively.
Ennis: because his love is as deep as the oceans.
-
They were pretty smart about things that mattered to them. Both high school drop outs, so neither was book-smart, but they weren't fools by any means. Just trying to make their ways in the world they found themselves in. What good would an education do Ennis? Couldn't teach sheep to read.
There are no degrees in love! ... but if there were, our boys would in secondary education, no Ph D yet, but certainly writing the thesis!!!
They are the founders of Brokeback Academy
Not bad for a "pair of deuces going nowhere."
Jim
-
If you really think about it, it is pretty amazing for Ennis and Jack to last a relationship for 20 years.
They were barely twenty-year-old when they met. You gotta love someone that much to drive 14 hours and to be with each other once while for 20 years.
-
If you really think about it, it is pretty amazing for Ennis and Jack to last a relationship for 20 years.
They were barely twenty-year-old when they met. You gotta love someone that much to drive 14 hours and to be with each other once while for 20 years.
No doubt! Well said!
-
Not to generalize, but what I find appealing is that these type of guys tend to be less jaded and have more optimism in life, despite their educational level. Their expectations are much more down-to-earth and don't profess to be anything more than who they are, and most of the time, unpretentious....
-
"pair of deuces going nowhere" great phrase. Had a pair of deuces in a poker game thought I had something, wrong....again.
-
Not to generalize, but what I find appealing is that these type of guys tend to be less jaded and have more optimism in life, despite their educational level. Their expectations are much more down-to-earth and don't profess to be anything more than who they are, and most of the time, unpretentious....
"Unpretentious" - a very endearing quality. Thank you for point that out.
-
The passion of their love
Ennis Love of his daughters
Jack's bright, fun personsonality
Ennis' fragile stoicism
their enjoyment of each other's company
Ennis TALKED to jack!
And also, their baseness. I mean, because they weren't educated, they were more in touch with nature. That's where they love each other.
Phd's be d***ed! After a night of love, I want to know I've been loved!
-
Annie Proux described Jake's Jack as having a "quicksilver" quality-I thought that was an outstanding description, but then again she is a master with words-and very unlike her conception of him. The more I watch the film the more impressed I am by what I see as a generous and unafraid spirit in Jack.
Ennis I see as an obviously conflicted but down deep extremely decent human being. He struggled mightily to do what he thought was the right thing, at least most of the time.
-
Annie Proux described Jake's Jack as having a "quicksilver" quality-I thought that was an outstanding description, but then again she is a master with words-and very unlike her conception of him. The more I watch the film the more impressed I am by what I see as a generous and unafraid spirit in Jack.
Ennis I see as an obviously conflicted but down deep extremely decent human being. He struggled mightily to do what he thought was the right thing, at least most of the time.
You mentioned some very obvious and appealing qualities of these two characters. I saw nothing in either character to indicate they were not decent men at the core. This story made it clear that even decent people will make choices that hurt themselves and unfortunately others close to them.
-
It's ironic, because I have read and heard comments from others that don't like Jack Twist at all. They think Jack Nasty is a perfect name for him. Hence Gene Shalit's initial description of Jack as a "sexual predator". A rich and complex character can obviously be seen by different people different ways, but IMHO, Jack rocks!
-
It's ironic, because I have read and heard comments from others that don't like Jack Twist at all. They think Jack Nasty is a perfect name for him. Hence Gene Shalit's initial description of Jack as a "sexual predator". A rich and complex character can obviously be seen by different people different ways, but IMHO, Jack rocks!
I agree! Jack Rocks! 8)
-
You got to give Jack some credit he kept that realtionship alive for 20 years. He made Ennis happy even if it was for a moment in time. Can a moment of happpiness get us through a lifeitime?
Seems like there are some of us out here that have had that "moment" and will remember it for the rest of our lives, I know i do.
-
You got to give Jack some credit he kept that realtionship alive for 20 years. He made Ennis happy even if it was for a moment in time. Can a moment of happpiness get us through a lifeitime?
Seems like there are some of us out here that have had that "moment" and will remember it for the rest of our lives, I know i do.
That's the thing, isn't it? They suffered so much for their love but they HAD that love. As painful as it was to them, that's why they kept coming back. I've never been in that kind of pain, but part of me believes it would be worth it to experience that kind of love.
-
their enjoyment of each other's company
Ennis TALKED to jack!
This is always so obvious to me. How little Ennis talked to Alma as apposed to how much he talked to Jack. And he didn't talk much to Cassie either. One of my favorite scenes is when Jack is shucking corn and putting it in the pot. When Ennis drives up, Jack drops the corn and stands up with a big grin on his face. And Ennis has a big smile also when he gets out of the truck. Not only are they very obviously in love, but as you said...they enjoy each others company. This is the scene in the screenplay that says Ennis brought beans...I thought that was so sweet...teasing Jack about how he hated eating beans all the time on Brokeback. Wish this had been put in the movie. All you can hear is Ennis saying "Look what I brought". The obvious love and happiness in this scene when they first see each other is sooo touching.
Donna
-
For me the appeal is how well they complimented and understood each other. Ennis tried to provide for Jack- the soup, killing the elk, switching places with Jack and in turn Jack got Ennis to open up and made him feel safe enough to be who he was. They both gave to each other in their own way. Ennis found not only his "soulmate" but his best friend in Jack. You don't need to be well educated to love another- that is just natural.
And I agree Proulxfan- JACK ROCKS! ;D
-
You don't need to be well educated to love another- that is just natural.
Truer words were never spoken. Often in tv and films we are forced to witness so many complicated scenerios with regards to love and relationships. With Jack and Ennis the primary complication was society's expectations. What we witnessed was very natural and simple. Love with grounded with a true friendship.
-
I'm still rooting through all these interesting topics and threads.
I think Ennis and Jack had enough smarts for the time and place -- it's too bad our society is so removed from natural wisdom and physical competence. I couldn't do the stuff they did, nor could many men I know. Finishing high school would have been good for Ennis, but college wasn't so necessary then. (I didn't go to college, and I'm nearly their same age.) I see Ennis as very competent (and that is extremely attractive and sexy, too). Jack is a great people person, so his work as a farm equipment salesman was suitable. Who cares if he can't do the books -- lots of people can't. Ennis, though, was held back from better employment not because of intelligence but because he couldn't commit to a more serious job.
Anyway, I don't see anything "dumb" about them, nor was it a foregone conclusion that they were "going nowhere." Just little twists of fate could easily have brought them on whole different paths. As to their language, they probably wouldn't have talked so slangy if they'd grown up in a big city, for instance.
Bottom line is, smart enough for me!
kathy
-
Thank you for your post Kathy! When I started this thread I did not want to give the impression that I thought these characters were not intelligent. I should have started with "Not the most educated..."
I've been around long enough to know that education is not always an accurate measurement of intelligence. Jack and Ennis were both products of the environments where they grew up. During that time period there probably were not many people from their communities that were in a position to go to college. Work and families were probably the norm after high school.
Their characters made it very clear to me that a piece of paper is not and should not be the sole factor in what makes one attractive to another. I have me so many couples over the years where there are distinct differences in education levels. What I find beautiful is that this difference does not matter.
Bottom line is that I just wanted to hear from others how important education was in their overall attraction to someone special. I'm very happy with the answers given.
-
I think... for me what makes these two and so many others like them so appealing is the fact that they are smart even without formal education. Sometimes I don't think we give nearly enough credit for the value of wisdom gained from experience!
I also have to say that I have always found this kind of man to be very attractive... regardless of whether they have a pretty face or a gorgeous body (these things are important... but not nearly the most important). What I find attractive about them is their ability to be strong, masculine and hardworking, with callouses, blisters and work roughed hands but yet they still manage to be kind, caring, gentle, sweet and loving. So many men have trouble balancing the two... these guys were/are really good at both. :) For ex. note how gently and reverently Ennis hold the shirts after he finds them. He holds them as though he is holding Jack himself and he is so gentle and loving in his embrace of them. That my friends says it all... <^(
-
Wonderful post!!! Thank you so much!
-
Thank you for your post Kathy! When I started this thread I did not want to give the impression that I thought these characters were not intelligent. I should have started with "Not the most educated..."
I've been around long enough to know that education is not always an accurate measurement of intelligence. Jack and Ennis were both products of the environments where they grew up. During that time period there probably were not many people from their communities that were in a position to go to college. Work and families were probably the norm after high school.
Their characters made it very clear to me that a piece of paper is not and should not be the sole factor in what makes one attractive to another. I have me so many couples over the years where there are distinct differences in education levels. What I find beautiful is that this difference does not matter.
Bottom line is that I just wanted to hear from others how important education was in their overall attraction to someone special. I'm very happy with the answers given.
I got you, CSC, that you were not disparaging their intelligence. And I found all these replies interesting and insightful, too.
What I would have wished for Ennis and Jack is not necessarily book-learning at school, but if they had known more about the world out there, they (at least Ennis) wouldn't have felt so isolated from others like them. But then it wouldn't have been the same story... If they had had easy access to libraries and were avid readers, then it would have been different also. Their story couldn't easily happen in the internet age, that's for sure! Maybe there are remote places, in Siberia or something, where this story could still take place...but there are probably more computers in Siberia than we might think.
Anyway, it's also interesting about the norm being that they would just do work and family and basically stay where they are. (Well, not Jack -- he's the kind of boy you can't keep down on the farm!)
kathy
-
I think... for me what makes these two and so many others like them so appealing is the fact that they are smart even without formal education. Sometimes I don't think we give nearly enough credit for the value of wisdom gained from experience!
I also have to say that I have always found this kind of man to be very attractive... regardless of whether they have a pretty face or a gorgeous body (these things are important... but not nearly the most important). What I find attractive about them is their ability to be strong, masculine and hardworking, with callouses, blisters and work roughed hands but yet they still manage to be kind, caring, gentle, sweet and loving. So many men have trouble balancing the two... these guys were/are really good at both. :) For ex. note how gently and reverently Ennis hold the shirts after he finds them. He holds them as though he is holding Jack himself and he is so gentle and loving in his embrace of them. That my friends says it all... <^(
Great post! :\'(
-
Thank you...
I can relate to Ennis so well... I had my Jack once... :\'(
-
Thank you...
I can relate to Ennis so well... I had my Jack once... :\'(
I know what you mean. Ennis's character affects me so much. I find myself looking for someone with the same qualities. I'm outgoing enough to BE Jack. An Ennis would really balance things out in my life. His strong, silent quality is so appealing.
-
Having spent my time teaching literature I have an exaggerated respect for anyone who can do practical things. I also feel impressed by people who can ride, because I can;t ( and am afraid of horses). And I love what Wordsworth would have callled the sublime - ie the mountain scenery in the movie. the whole thing just brought back America to me.
Oh, yes, and there's Jake.
-
And actually I've also developed a very ambiguous attitude to what passes for education, or maybe the snobbery and pretension I've found among those who call themselves "academice".
There is also a knowledge and wisdom that comes from feeling - I think in some ways Jack has that, where Ennis doesn't. Those who intellectualise everything lose that instinctive ability to experience emotion, yet in the end that's what lasts.
Jack and Ennis were lucky that they had an intense experience of love - that it was fragmentary and intermirttent in the times they were together is unimportant in relation to the fat that they found their other half, the person who completed them. Yes, it was tragic that ennis 's fears kept them apart, but at least they had what some people never do.
-
And actually I've also developed a very ambiguous attitude to what passes for education, or maybe the snobbery and pretension I've found among those who call themselves "academice".
<OT> SO true!!!!
There is also a knowledge and wisdom that comes from feeling - I think in some ways Jack has that, where Ennis doesn't. Those who intellectualise everything lose that instinctive ability to experience emotion, yet in the end that's what lasts.
the more I read the more I am becomming a fan!!
Jack and Ennis were lucky that they had an intense experience of love - that it was fragmentary and intermirttent in the times they were together is unimportant in relation to the fat that they found their other half, the person who completed them. Yes, it was tragic that ennis 's fears kept them apart, but at least they had what some people never do.
Wow...I so wish I could write like that...it feels like you came inside my brain..looked up at my thoughts...selected some of them and put them into words!!
Thank you x
-
Thank you so much welshwish. "There is a knowledge and wisdom that comes from feeling..." There is so much truth to this statement.
-
Jack for wanting and believing in true love, and romance
Ennis for his rare smiles..his smiles just melt me inside
Jack for showing compassion and tenderness.. very nicely stated :)
And together they had something lasting and true as well as tragic and sad
[Jack and Ennis were lucky that they had an intense experience of love - that it was fragmentary and intermirttent in the times they were together is unimportant in relation to the fat that they found their other half, the person who completed them. Yes, it was tragic that ennis 's fears kept them apart, but at least they had what some people never do. /quote]
-
I think... for me what makes these two and so many others like them so appealing is the fact that they are smart even without formal education. Sometimes I don't think we give nearly enough credit for the value of wisdom gained from experience!
I also have to say that I have always found this kind of man to be very attractive... regardless of whether they have a pretty face or a gorgeous body (these things are important... but not nearly the most important). What I find attractive about them is their ability to be strong, masculine and hardworking, with callouses, blisters and work roughed hands but yet they still manage to be kind, caring, gentle, sweet and loving. So many men have trouble balancing the two... these guys were/are really good at both. :) For ex. note how gently and reverently Ennis hold the shirts after he finds them. He holds them as though he is holding Jack himself and he is so gentle and loving in his embrace of them. That my friends says it all... <^(
Beautifully said! This is so true, that both of these men are petty well balanced between their masculine and feminine sides. (Of course, the characters were created by a woman.) Both of them are overtly nurturing -- like Ennis with his daughters, which is so beautiful, sweet, such an attractive quality; and Jack is such a good comforter to Ennis, also so appealing, and sexy.
kathy
-
I have a feeling that what I said was pure Wordsworth or one of the Romantics, anyway. But thank you for your kind words, Froggy and
CSC. I feel so much about BBM that it's easier to put into words then writing about other things might be. don;t you think we've all found unexpected words to use to talk about our reactions? Either that, or this forum contains s random cross-section of a large number of very eloquent people.
-
I have a feeling that what I said was pure Wordsworth or one of the Romantics, anyway. But thank you for your kind words, Froggy and
CSC. I feel so much about BBM that it's easier to put into words then writing about other things might be. don;t you think we've all found unexpected words to use to talk about our reactions? Either that, or this forum contains s random cross-section of a large number of very eloquent people.
I'm sure a number of members do not feel they are eloquent in their expression, but something about this film has brought out a level of expression that may be unexpected. Just think about it...these two characters who appear to lack eloquence in their dialog have provided universal messages on how love should not be taken for granted. They have made us aware that love is a force of nature and it often happens when we least expect it. If any of us are lucky enough to find the love these two shared we should cherish it and fight tooth and nail to hold on to it.
-
Beautiful as always CSC!
-
I have a feeling that what I said was pure Wordsworth or one of the Romantics, anyway. But thank you for your kind words, Froggy and
CSC. I feel so much about BBM that it's easier to put into words then writing about other things might be. don;t you think we've all found unexpected words to use to talk about our reactions? Either that, or this forum contains s random cross-section of a large number of very eloquent people.
I'm sure a number of members do not feel they are eloquent in their expression, but something about this film has brought out a level of expression that may be unexpected. Just think about it...these two characters who appear to lack eloquence in their dialog have provided universal messages on how love should not be taken for granted. They have made us aware that love is a force of nature and it often happens when we least expect it. If any of us are lucky enough to find the love these two shared we should cherish it and fight tooth and nail to hold on to it.
Beautifully said CSC!
-
Thank you Flwchild and LJN. :-* All of these wonderful post have just unlocked these feelings all over again.
-
Just a thought here brothers, sisters and friends.
It is we who are imitating their speech and quoting their words. Isn't it common to imitate and quote the intellectuals[/i] of our world? LOL
-
Yes, we use their phrases and grammar, or rather Annie Proulx's, but I was thinking that it was all the discussion and exchange of views, plus the intense feelings the movie evokes, that had let the words flow from us like the river flowed down the mountain.
Perhaps it's that they, particularly Ennis, are so inarticulate that's made us reach into ourselves and say things we wouldn't have otherwise?
-
I am humbled by your insight.
-
Just a thought here brothers, sisters and friends.
It is we who are imitating their speech and quoting their words. Isn't it common to imitate and quote the intellectuals[/i] of our world? LOL
Well, you bet and you ain't jokin' on that one, Patriot1, lol. ;D
Guess it's not always about how well you say what you mean, but how deeply you mean what you say. :) :)
Yes, we use their phrases and grammar, or rather Annie Proulx's, but I was thinking that it was all the discussion and exchange of views, plus the intense feelings the movie evokes, that had let the words flow from us like the river flowed down the mountain.
Perhaps it's that they, particularly Ennis, are so inarticulate that's made us reach into ourselves and say things we wouldn't have otherwise?
Sweet words, welshwitch, to explain why there are so many sweet words here! ^f^
-
If I were poetically inclined, I'd say we were flying on the wings of their words, but kept aloft by the goodwill and humanity of everyone here.
-
If I were poetically inclined, I'd say we were flying on the wings of their words, but kept aloft by the goodwill and humanity of everyone here.
Just beautiful. Again.
-
I must say I am a bit surprised this thread has seen recent activity. Outside of a few posts in April this thread has been dormant since February. Thank you all so much for contributing your feelings and insight on this topic.
-
CSC - apparently there is no thread so old that we can't find things to go back and say about it again. :) New posters, new insights, new musings, whatever. :) I missed this first time around, interesting line of thought you brought up here, friend. Thanks. :-*
(OT - hope you're doing okay, cowboy :c) and feeling just the thing. ^f^ )
-
I must say I am a bit surprised this thread has seen recent activity. Outside of a few posts in April this thread has been dormant since February. Thank you all so much for contributing your feelings and insight on this topic.
That's because, as I said in my 6/3 (?) post, I was rooting around all these topics and threads and wanted to see what this one was about, and posted a reply. Cool how a topic can get active again. See, I came here late. I knew there were things like this going on but I had to resist getting involved because of other-life obligations, and so when I finally got here, a lot of catching up to do! I've got tons to explore yet.
And this thread, amazing things said, beautiful words, by all of you, especially as to this river of words about love flowin' down the mountain...
kathy
-
Having spent my time teaching literature I have an exaggerated respect for anyone who can do practical things...
This resonates with me. My (technical) profession requires a high degree of specialized formal education, so that is
where I have focused my attention in regard to learning. As such, I am competent in that regard. However, I
really am lacking in proficiency with respect to ordinary tasks, e.g. fixing things around the house, gardening etc.
So, I am *very* and sincerely impressed with those who are "handy" and can do such things. I think that was the
case with Ennis and Jack - they possessed the practical knowledge and skills required to be a cowboy. I shudder
to think how I would manage during their summer on Brokeback, for example. Don't get me wrong, I am pretty
hardy and resourceful, but I am sure that, day to day, my life in that environment would be both a struggle as
well as a comedy of errors...
-
Having spent my time teaching literature I have an exaggerated respect for anyone who can do practical things...
This resonates with me. My (technical) profession requires a high degree of specialized formal education, so that is
where I have focused my attention in regard to learning. As such, I am competent in that regard. However, I
really am lacking in proficiency with respect to ordinary tasks, e.g. fixing things around the house, gardening etc.
So, I am *very* and sincerely impressed with those who are "handy" and can do such things. I think that was the
case with Ennis and Jack - they possessed the practical knowledge and skills required to be a cowboy. I shudder
to think how I would manage during their summer on Brokeback, for example. Don't get me wrong, I am pretty
hardy and resourceful, but I am sure that, day to day, my life in that environment would be both a struggle as
well as a comedy of errors...
Well, yeah -- can you imagine herding a herd of sheep of all things?? That takes an inate intelligence that no book-learning can teach. I of course had to LOL at your "comedy of errors" in that environment -- me, too.
kathy
-
I never did get how to make a fire, and I didn't see them do it either. Diid they use Jack's lighter ( which never appeared after the bar scene)? Opening cans I guess I can do, but the rest, nope.Just trying to survive a couple of months on the mountain would finish me off. and they had to know something about guns and hunting, and about getting shirts ironed without ironing them - wish I knew how.