Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: monicita on Jan 24, 2006, 08:40 AM
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Hi folks,
I just came upon a post in some other thread where somebody said that "Ennis was loved by nobody but Jack". I would say, that isn't true. Alma truly loved Ennis, she just couldn't make it work, because they were never straight with each other (except in that one scene in the kitchen after the thanksgiving dinner, where she faces up to Ennis). What do you think?
monicita
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I just came upon a post in some other thread where somebody said that "Ennis was loved by nobody but Jack". I would say, that isn't true. Alma truly loved Ennis, she just couldn't make it work, because they were never straight with each other (except in that one scene in the kitchen after the thanksgiving dinner, where she faces up to Ennis). What do you think?
Hello monicita, I do think Alma loved Ennis and she took her marriage seriously. There are only many scenes in which one could gather.
Alma entered the movie in the church at her wedding. She had a such innocent look, barely reach the age of 20. We see snowsliding and movie park at the beginnig of their marriage. Alma is what I would describe to be the "typical housewife" in the 70s. She reminded a lot of my mom as I was growing up. In her mentality, this is her marriage, her husband and her children and she needed to take care of them. We see Alma doing laundry and taking care of the kids. And you are right, Alma just could not make it work. It saddens me every time to see their marriage deteriorates to the end. The thanksgiving scene, one of the difficult scenes for me to watch, also shows how Alma cares about Ennis and asks Ennis "ought to be married again."
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I think she did. You saw it in her eyes when she first discovered Jack and Ennis- she was heartbroken.
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Hello monicita, I do think Alma loved Ennis and she took her marriage seriously. There are only many scenes in which one could gather.
The thanksgiving scene, one of the difficult scenes for me to watch, also shows how Alma cares about Ennis and asks Ennis "ought to be married again."
Although I certainly would agree that Alma loved Ennis, at least in the early days, her suggestion that he ought to get married again in the kitchen scene (from Hell) is not an expression of love. Here's what Annie sez:
"After the pie Alma got him off in the kitchen, scraped the plates and said she worried about him and he ought to get married again. He saw she was pregnant, about four, five months, he guessed.
"Once burned," he said, leaning against the counter, feeling too big for the room.
"You still go fishin with that Jack Twist?"
"Some." He thought she?d take the pattern off the plate with the scraping.
"You know," she said, and from her tone he knew something was coming, "I used to wonder how come you never brought any trouts home. Always said you caught plenty..." You know what comes next.
Her question about his remarrying is a prologue to what she really has to say, which is an indictment of his sexuality... and letting him know that she "knows." She "knows" that they had a physical relationship. What she does not know, and could probably never understand, is that they fell in love.
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I think Alma really love Ennis but after she knew about Ennis and Jack she accumulate also some mix of frustration, anger, treason, amazement and despair... I listened some acidity from Alma in kitchen scene after thanksgiven lunch.
coguaro
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I kept thinking after seeing the kiss on SOME LEVEL Alma must have been thinking
"oh ok...that explains some things" but of course it's a different era so I am sure she is
mostly confused.
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Initially I think she did love Ennis...but over time, and with much disappointment, I think she lost that. I think the bigger picture is really that Ennis loved Alma but passionately loved and connected with Jack which is a big difference. His heart was never very available to anyone in his life...but was most available to Jack.
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I think Alma loved Ennis very much, and continued to in some ways even after the divorce.
Look at the Thanksgiving scene. Obviously quite a bit of time had passed since their divorce, but she was still thinking about Ennis/Jack, still deeply hurt by it, and still angry. The fact that she had so much anger towards Ennis still proves to me that she still cared. If she didn't love him, she'd just be apathetic.
Remember, hate isn't the opposite of love, apathy is.
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Why didn't she get rid of the 2nd postcard she found? Most people would have done that.
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Initially I think she did love Ennis...but over time, and with much disappointment, I think she lost that. I think the bigger picture is really that Ennis loved Alma but passionately loved and connected with Jack which is a big difference. His heart was never very available to anyone in his life...but was most available to Jack.
Hi everyone,
I agree with rikcub, except that I wonder if Ennis ever loved Alma. (I haven't read the story.) Wasn't their marriage one of the rare options that Ennis had for his future ? An option he acted on in spite of bbm.
Back to the question, Alma witnessed a passionate reunion from the front door, but never confronts Ennis with it. E doesn't even know about the note on the fishing pole until years later. She didn't love him enough to fight over Jack, apparently. There's that scene where she defies him about her job instead of serving dinner (was Monroe working that day ?), but she's walking away from the real issue. She might have been waiting for her husband's *madness* to pass, but it wasn't madness.
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Hi guys and gals,
thanks for all the interesting answers (and the new questions that have come up, like for example the question, why Alma never destroyed the second postcard).
I think some of the most interesting thoughts concern the question why Alma didn't really DO anything about what she sees happening between Ennis and Jack. My answer would be: This is not something she can really confront with what her take on life has to be: Housewife, mother, dutiful wife. So she tries to ignore it (the way she kind of ignores the post card). Maybe hoping it will just go away, if she pretends not to see it. But it doesn't go away. When she says to Ennis she doesn't want to have any more of his children because he can't support them (interestingly, in the book she says that below her breath), does she really mean only that or is there some unacknowledged resentment because of Jack? I think there must be, seeing how she reacts years later, when she is no longer married to Ennis, in the "kitchen scene from hell" (thanks for that great characterization!). Even there, though, I agree with the person who thinks she still "cares" for Ennis in some way.
Just imagine: All those hurt feelings, the jealousy, the anger, simmering away in her for years and years. And finally she can get that out. It's a pity we never see her again afterwards. We don't know (and it doesn't say in the story either) if they ever met again, if they made up in some way. We only know that her daughter thinks she has become "hard", since the new baby. Does she want to get rid of everything that had to do with Ennis, after the kitchen scene? Including her daughters from their marriage? What a sad idea. But still, I can understand her, somehow...
monicita
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Alma loved Ennis, but she didn't know what the real problem was in their relationship. When she opened the door and saw Ennis passionately kissing Jack at the bottom of the steps, she got the answer in spades. Try as she did, she was just not the one who lit Ennis' fire, camp or otherwise!
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I don't want to blame Alma for the failed marriage, BUT
in the first bedroom scene between Ennis and Alma, she couldn't help tainting their intimacy with worry (are you sure the kids are asleep? ; if the kids get sick, the doctor's too far away) and even something a bit cruel (you don't want the girls to grow up as lonely as you were, do you ?). In the second bedroom scene, financial worries are verbalised with the effect of jarring Ennis's remark that he'd be happy to leave her alone. OK, she was probably hurting with jealousy and anger, but sex is interrupted with nearly no regret.
In the first tent scene, on the other hand, worry is the last thing on E and J's minds (who cares about the damned sheep on the mountain ?). And however uncomfortable Ennis might feel after the first time, the second tent scene has Ennis and Jack putting their unasked questions on hold, or allowing their instincts to do the talking.
Aela's right, the opposite of love is apathy. I don't think Alma hated Ennis, she hated Jack, was angry with Ennis. I feel she was blaming him, yet she wasn't able to confront him, as I said already. Sad.
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Howdy.
Alma loved Ennis.
There is no doubt on Alma's part. She was a traditionalist following a tradition and did what she knew she could do, fall in love with Ennis and marry him. The problem was she was up against something else that also laid claim on Ennis' heart and she could not share that... *NOT* in the environment that she lived in.
She already had the two daughters with Ennis' before that fateful day she met Jack and saw what they had. She must have realized that they were some things that she could no longer share with Ennis at that point and was jealous of Jack. She was ice-cold with Jack and that fateful evening, probably started the countdown to the divorce... but she did try to test whether Ennis still wanted her in his life, especially with the "bring home some fish" note that she put with his fishing gear... only to discover that Jack and Ennis did not fish during their trips together. Her time of love for Ennis was over for her and she took the only things that she did share with Ennis, their daughters. Times were hard, so she had to marry another man (the grocer) to keep the household going and this was the uneasy compromise that social norms and love could afford them all. There was no maliciousness on her part, there was only urgent and desperate survival moves to keep whatever love she could find alive. So she loved her daughters and raised them with another man... resigning Ennis to his fate and in some ways, hope he could *remarry* to find the only kind of love she knew about: traditional love.
If Ennis could only have it that easy.
More than anything, Alma was an innocent victim and although not helpless in her own life journey... she was helpless in Ennis' life journey. Was it apathy? I am not sure... I think it was more helpless ness that made Alma withdraw from Ennis' situation. It was nothing she could handle so she handled what she could.
What do you think?
Frank
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Howdy.
Alma loved Ennis.
There is no doubt on Alma's part. (...)
No doubt whatsoever on Alma's part, okay. Until a real challenge came along, though. What bothers me somehow is that her love for Ennis stopped at Jack's feet.
Pardon me if I play the alternative scenario game (aka PBS delirium), but if I were Alma and someone was stealing him from me, I would sort of go at his/her throat, invite him for coffee laced with cyanide or something !
In the "Kitchen from Hell" scene, after provoking him with an insult for Jack, Ennis gets violent, and she threatens to call Monroe. That's the last time we see her. Does she ever regret not having fought harder to keep him ?
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Howdy.
Alma loved Ennis.
On second thoughts, Frank, I've got to give Alma more credit. My previous post was too unreal. I suppose I'm bothered about Alma because I feel I could have fought more to hang on... A little personal history to follow, so feel free to skip.
My own Brokeback happened here in the Alps (I live in France). Impossible to try to live together, of course. Nobody stole my real-life Ennis away, the real world had us leading our separate lives. Later, my 'Ennis' had friends, sort of like Jack's. I never saw him kiss anyone else (like Alma did), but I felt betrayed. I even met one of his friends, but I was never anything other than cordial. The thought of going for the guy's throat never entered my mind ! When Ennis moved a thousand kilometres away he actually suggested I move too. I didn't. Neither did I fight to prevent him moving away.
So I guess Alma loved Ennis, a lot. :-[ Unlike Alma or Jack, I could never get angry with Ennis.
Stephan
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Howdy.
Alma loved Ennis.
On second thoughts, Frank, I've got to give Alma more credit. My previous post was too unreal. I suppose I'm bothered about Alma because I feel I could have fought more to hang on... A little personal history to follow, so feel free to skip.
My own Brokeback happened here in the Alps (I live in France). Impossible to try to live together, of course. Nobody stole my real-life Ennis away, the real world had us leading our separate lives. Later, my 'Ennis' had friends, sort of like Jack's. I never saw him kiss anyone else (like Alma did), but I felt betrayed. I even met one of his friends, but I was never anything other than cordial. The thought of going for the guy's throat never entered my mind ! When Ennis moved a thousand kilometres away he actually suggested I move too. I didn't. Neither did I fight to prevent him moving away.
So I guess Alma loved Ennis, a lot. :-[ Unlike Alma or Jack, I could never get angry with Ennis.
Stephan
Dear Stephan,
You need not worry... I am 43, and I have seen my share of Ennis'es and Jacks to understand. That is what I love about Brokeback Mountain, its theme is so universal and it touches all of us... in ways that can even rub salt in an old wound or offer a way out.
I chosed to look more at things from where I want to be... from the perspective of Love... so in some ways, I may be wearing rose-coloured glasses, but believe me ... it can be better than going crazy or any other alternatives.
Peace,
Frank
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Although I am only just echoing what others have said, I, too, believe that Alma loved Ennis. You see it all over her face when she witnesses the reunion between Jack and Ennis at the stairway. She just doesn't know how to react, and I can't say I blame her. I would have done the same thing. It was shocking for her to see the man she loved being far more passionate with another man that he had been with her in years. And I agree, as well, that at the Thanksgiving dinner, she still loves Ennis, despite their falling out, and their divorce. She shows genuine concern for Ennis' welfare, and her interest in getting him married again shows her love still, because she wants to see him happy.
In many ways, it was easier for her to continue loving Ennis but let him go (ie the divorce) than to try to fight for him. This is, after all, the 70's, and I am sure it would have segregated her to try to battle Jack. And I think that in a way, she loved Ennis enough to let him go. She didn't want to put the humiliation on him that would have arisen from battlling Jack.
Sorry, I don't know if that makes a lot of sense.
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Good topic monicita!
I believe Alma did love Ennis.
(And though you don't ask, and probably this should be in a different thread, I also believe that Ennis loved Alma quite genuinely, possibly not so much after Divorce and especially not so much after Thanksgiving, but in the beginning and throughout the majority of the 12 year marriage.)
Alma certainly loved Ennis. At their marriage, and throughout their married life. Every marriage is a compromise, so Alma jockeying for a move to the town is quite normal and natural for instance and in no way reflects any lack of love for Ennis. I think her comment about not wanting the girls to grow up so lonely as Ennis did, hit a sensitive spot with Ennis, so was both a persuasive tool AND a true concern for her children. And since we are all human, naturally there was likely also an element of selfish want too. She didn't want to be stuck out in the middle of nowhere without any other society. That's a perfectly legitmate feeling and does not reflect on her love for Ennis.
During the first 4 years of marriage, I project that Ennis was "present" in the marriage. They probably had a quite ordinary loving relationship with each other and with their children. Possibly to Alma, Ennis was a type who occasionally drifted off into quiet reverie thinking over his memories or something. Again quite natural.
At the arrival of Jack, Ennis was lit with a fire of excitement, because all that long quiet memory and feeling exploded out the surface and I'm sure at the moment in time Alma and EVERYTHING was pushed out his mind.
When Alma witnesses the reunion kiss, she is naturally shocked because, 1, she sees two men kissing...likely given the times something she had never seen; 2, she sees the two men kissing PASSIONATELY so there is SOMETHING dramatic happening she can't help but realize; 3, she is seeing HER husband doing this passionate kissing. She is shocked, she is overwhelmed, and she is CONFUSED.
When Ennis brings Jack in to meet her she is still in a state of shock and inarticulately stares in confusion at this sudden stranger. So when he and Ennis immediately head out and leave her she is overcome by it all and breaks down crying. She knows something important happened but probably can't quite comprehend it.
And to me, this is the state she remains in for most of the next 8 years and beyond until she finally confronts Ennis at Thanksgiving. She knows and she doesn't know. Very typical behaviour which is usually casually referred to as "being in denial." Likely she kept putting it out of her mind, until those times when Jack reappeared. Naturally it must have nagged at her but she likely just kept on being wife and mother. And loving her husband. We all know in every relationship there are highs and lows and the honeymoon doesn't last forever. But the two can still love each other through it all.
The scene where Ennis follows her out of the house shouting about the dinner is indicative of trouble in the marriage but is that due to Alma's changed feelings or Ennis's changed feelings? Or is it just indicative of a normal up and down relationship? Probably some elements of all three.
Alma and Ennis have two children together, and we witness two sexual encounters between them. Yes in the first encounter we are shown Ennis flips Alma onto her stomach. We don't know how he takes her (you know what I mean!) and there is no reason to assume he takes her like he took Jack, but possibly the position reminded him of that. We are shown a passion coming from the two of them. Whether Ennis has something going on in his head or not, his body is responding passionately and so seems Alma. Much later on, we still are shown a passon on both their parts. Based on this widely time separated incidents, we see no bored rote sexual performance. So there was something there between the two.
When Alma expresses nervousness and hesitancy about not taking precaution, she is doing a responsible thing. She is considering her family circumstances, her two children, and the family's income. It is Ennis who reacts badly, and in fact it is a bit of a Macho stance. "how dare she question his.... whatever" The action and response of this scene, shows that something has changed, but it is not that Alma stopped loving Ennis. This was a fight, an argument. Ennis's pride was hurt and he pouted. Alma was justified in her concern, and got angry when Ennis says what he said and so she lashed out at him too with an insult to his capability to provide for the family and then she pouted.
Obviously some deterioration had been happening over the years, and even though the next scene in the movie is the divorce court, we don't really know just how much time had passed between the two scenes (correct me please, if in the movie, it does tell us.)
I would be willing to bet that it was Ennis who wanted the divorce, not that Alma stopped loving him.
After this happened, I feel Alma's hurt and disappointment and long held confusion and resentment toward Jack, ate away at her and I believe her feelings turned to anger and bitterness toward Ennis. At that Thanksgiving she definitely has feelings, but they are NOT positive feelings. She looks at Ennis with anger and resentment, and views all his actions through that lens. The scene in the kitchen with her opening comment about getting married again, in my opinion was not an expression of concern for Ennis's well being but an opening comment to finally express her negative feelings about all that had happened. Though she says "me and the girls worry about you", and it's possible that the girls did worry about their Dad and speak of that to their Mom, she probably felt it gave her a legitimate opening remark.
Some have said that apathy is the opposite of love and that may be so, but anger is not NECESSARILY love either. Alma had a lot to be angry about. HER life was changed and affected badly, she could have lots of resentment about what had happened to her which really has nothing to do with any love for Ennis. I see this kitchen scene as she finally expressing that resentment about what had happened in her life. We had already seen that she could be unkind. When Ennis makes his hurt pride comment after she expresses concern about the financial impact of getting pregnant again, she does retaliate with a mean comment. She could have assured him that her concern was only about money, but she got angry and lashed out too instead. So when we then get to the kitchen, she has already shown us that she can be mean if she wants. And that's what I think happened there. So in the end, Alma had stopped loving Ennis at some point before or after the divorce and definitely no longer loved him at the Thanksgiving.
But as I said, I think it was Ennis who initiated the divorce, and had he not done that, I think Alma would have gone on with him, loving him and at the same time, living in some denial about Jack and the implications of that.
I am long winded! My apologies for going on so. Hope that some ideas and theories came through for your consideration.
Thanks,
Jack in Maine
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Yeah, well, you know me. Bright ideas just pop into my head, and I keep thinking...
I am sure that Ennis was the one and only for Alma. For a while. Perhaps if Ennis remained dead inside by not finding Jack again, she would have been able to keep her love alive. But Ennis did get with Jack again. And Alma. well she was hurt but too mousy to speak up. Why? Doesn't make sense that she wouldn't put a stop to it. For years and years? Unless... hmmm, the grocer . She marries him after the divorce, I just wonder how long she had been close to him? Maybe she wasn't as lonely as we are lead to believe... Maybe The Story Of Alma is a whole nother book/movie...
OK, it's a can of worms, I know... Let's hear it!
Jim
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Unless... hmmm, the grocer . She marries him after the divorce, I just wonder how long she had been close to him? Maybe she wasn't as lonely as we are lead to believe... Maybe The Story Of Alma is a whole nother book/movie...
OK, it's a can of worms, I know... Let's hear it!
Jim
Good point Jim. What's to say that Alma wasn't enjoying Monroe's company before the divorce and subsequent marriage to him? I think she was attracted to him at some point in the marriage...I dunno why, he's not really MY type...I prefer them country boys =)
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OK, it's a can of worms, I know... Let's hear it!
Jim
Let's say that the question is : did Alma care for / feel concerned about / want happines for / want stability for / Ennis ? Then I could say yes without a doubt.
At some point, though, (after Jack arrived, I guess), an important part of her love went out the door with Ennis. Her confidence and trust, for example. In the Kitchen from Hell scene, she finally says to him : "Don't try to fool me." So, love but no confidence ?
Stephan
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I think Alma definatly did love him, because, as someone said earlier, she wasnt apathetic. she was really destryed when she saw Ennis kissing Ajck, and he was noticeably more upbeat when preparing for his "fishing trips", and she must have noticed that. and she was visibly cut up when she was talking about the note she left in the box.
everyone else has really said what i'm trying to, but just better!
some great insights, guys!
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Why didn't she get rid of the 2nd postcard she found? Most people would have done that.
I disagree---where she was raised and a lot of us were raised---IF it doesn't have YOUR name on it, it isn't any of your business. Mail is private--and she did not have the right to throw anything away with Ennis' name on it and not her own.
I was married for over 3 years before I ever started opening my husbands mail---and only after fighting the whole time cause things weren't getting paid on time, and weren't being tended to, cause he didn't open his mail timely. Finally he said--OPEN THE DAMN STUFF AND DEAL WITH IT.
So I started doing just that---and things got better-----BUT for years--sometimes even now, I can hear my father's voice in my head "Is THAT your name?" and it always makes me pause for a second. The postcard was NOT hers, she didn't have the right to discard it without letting Ennis see it. Besides, if she would have thrown it, and later Jack showed up and said--you didn't get my card---and Ennis goes back to Alma---then she really would have gotten into hot water.
I believe that Alma loved Ennis, and Ennis loved Alma as much as either were capable of loving each other. His love for Jack was different, but came from the same heartstem-but I do think that they loved each other as much as they could. It only died when Alma realized that Ennis was never going to advance their relationship beyond what it was----His love for her couldn't grow beyond what it was in the beginning---and like most things----love not allowed to grow eventually starts to wither, and gets to be more habit than loving feelings. I also believe that Ennis would never have left Alma--if she hadn't decided to do better for herself and the girls they would still be together.
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Good Post, Ranchgal!
I think Alma had Ostrich Syndrome
Jim
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I would defiantly saw she did love him. When they were playing in the snow or at the movies or when they were getting married. She looked happy and content with him. I think she was hurt when she realized that her husband didn't return her love when she saw him Jack. She cried and appeared to be crushed. Once she found out about her husband's relationship with Jack she still stays in the marriage. She seemed to be committed to the relationship but it once it dissolved. She was hurt, and angry and upset. Which is totally normal on her part when you find out your life partner doesn't love you.
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I think Ennis still loves Alma. Loves her very deeply and it is because he loves her that he had to let her go. She deserves to feel the same kind of love that he has with Jack, and he knows that he can't give that to her. So, he lets her go in search of it (though she doesn't go far...). Poor Ennis, it hurts him too.
Jim
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What an intersting topic!
If I had quoted all of you, my posting would be 100km long.
Alma loved Ennis.
There is that love scene, Ennis brought the daughters to sleep. It's very intimate... Anne Proulx wrote in her short story:
"...slipping his hand up her blouse sleeve and stirring the silky armpit hair, then easing her down, fingers moving up her ribs to the jelly breast, over the round belly and knee and up into the wet gap all the way to the north pole or the equator depending which way you tought you were sailing, working at it until she shuddered and bucked against his hand and he rolled over, did quickly what she hated."
Sorry for being to much graphic, but she accepted being sodomized...
As per Anne Proulx, it was not the first time.
Hem!
Sorry If I hurted some of you guys, this is in the short story.
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Hi again,
some very insightful posts, there. Thanks! What struck me the most this time is that some people seem to see Alma as "mousy", not able to stand up for herself. That makes me remember the scene in the grocery store, where she asks "and what about my job?" You can see the tension between Alma and Ennis. And then, yes, she gives in and says she is going to call her sister. Or the scene where she doesn't want any more kids (thanks for pointing that one out!): There is something almost like feminist sensibility in Alma in those scenes. I find her not at all mousy, but unable to free herself from what everything around her has made her be: A dutiful wife. I love the way Ang Lee shows us the unfairness in the way Ennis treats her, the "macho stance" as someone said. It is the mark of high art, to show us the protagonist in a not always very favourable light, without making us love him the less, for it.
And it also shows, that love alone (I am convinced now, that Alma loved Ennis, still a bit unsure in what way Ennis loved Alma) does not make a good relationship or a good marriage. There has to be companionship, openness and respect. And without confronting the truth about Ennis's love for Jack, how could that have been possible in their marriage? Again, I have to commend the subtlety of the script and the directing, which shows us the slow unravelling of the marriage.
monicita
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some very insightful posts, there. Thanks! What struck me the most this time is that some people seem to see Alma as "mousy", not able to stand up for herself. That makes me remember the scene in the grocery store, where she asks "and what about my job?" You can see the tension between Alma and Ennis. And then, yes, she gives in and says she is going to call her sister. Or the scene where she doesn't want any more kids (thanks for pointing that one out!): There is something almost like feminist sensibility in Alma in those scenes. I find her not at all mousy, but unable to free herself from what everything around her has made her be: A dutiful wife. I love the way Ang Lee shows us the unfairness in the way Ennis treats her, the "macho stance" as someone said. It is the mark of high art, to show us the protagonist in a not always very favourable light, without making us love him the less, for it.
And it also shows, that love alone (I am convinced now, that Alma loved Ennis, still a bit unsure in what way Ennis loved Alma) does not make a good relationship or a good marriage. There has to be companionship, openness and respect. And without confronting the truth about Ennis's love for Jack, how could that have been possible in their marriage? Again, I have to commend the subtlety of the script and the directing, which shows us the slow unravelling of the marriage.
You raise another interesting point... "Good Marriage" versus "Good Love". On one hand, Ennis tried being the good husband and father... to enforce the image of the Good Marriage. On the other hand, Ennis tried to be the passionate lover, but it seems that Jack may have more claim to Ennis' passion. So there is a lot of love going around, it is just that Ennis loved each person differently and for different reasons.
Peace,
Frank
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I saw the Charlie Rose interview with Ang yesterday and Ang says that he doesn't think, Ennis really loved Alma. He did what you had to do. And Heath says in his interview, that the only point at which he can really pour out his love openly is with his daughters. Interesting...
monicita
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I think in a way, Ennis just wanted to make sure that his daughters were happy, and that they had everything he didn't have. He wasn't able to give them much, though, but as a parent, you always want to ensure that your children are better off than you were.
So perhaps he really didn't love Alma, but stayed with her out of a sense of responsibility.
Although, I do still think he loved her.
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Hi folks,
I just came upon a post in some other thread where somebody said that "Ennis was loved by nobody but Jack". I would say, that isn't true. Alma truly loved Ennis, she just couldn't make it work, because they were never straight with each other (except in that one scene in the kitchen after the thanksgiving dinner, where she faces up to Ennis). What do you think?
monicita
:D For sure she loved him!! If not, how about her tears? Moreover, she new Ennis before he falls in love with Jack and they were going to get married. For me it is quite obvious.
Merry
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Of course she did. She married him, had his children, put up with those living conditions. I think after catching her husband with Jack she changed. The fact that she and "the girls" were concerned about him marrying again leads me to believe she still cared, though may not have loved as much. Her repulsion of "Jack Nasty" is the main mood for her. The old adage "No woman wants to lose her husband to another woman, much less another man" comes to mind.
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No doubt that seeing her husband making love to his best friend, liked to make her blood run cold, but she loved him, always will.
And that's what I think...
Jim
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It was clear from Alma's first scene that she loved Ennis. I also believe Ennis loved Alma, but not as his soul mate. What Alma witnessed in the stairwell became a startling revelation that she was not number one in Ennis's heart. Despite everything that happend afterwards, I'm convinced she still loved Ennis. I'm just glad she had enough sense to get out of a hopeless situation and find the happiness she deserved.
I thought it was interesting how Alma's feelings came exploding to the surface during the Thanksgiving scene. At the table Alma appeared to be quiet, yet fuming inside! I got the impression having Ennis over was not her idea. As the later discussion in the kitchen deteriorated I was still convinced Alma cared about Ennis. I think she finally had to explode and unleash the source of her hurt. By doing so, Alma was able make Ennis aware of two important facts: (1) She knew the nature of his relationship with Jack and (2) Despite this knowledge, she still gave him opportunities to show that she actually mattered to him.
Yes Alma loved Ennis, but she had to let go to save herself.
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It was clear from Alma's first scene that she loved Ennis. I also believe Ennis loved Alma, but not as his soul mate. What Alma witnessed in the stairwell became a startling revelation that she was not number one in Ennis's heart. Despite everything that happend afterwards, I'm convinced she still loved Ennis. I'm just glad she had enough sense to get out of a hopeless situation and find the happiness she deserved.
I thought it was interesting how Alma's feelings came exploding to the surface during the Thanksgiving scene. At the table Alma appeared to be quiet, yet fuming inside! I got the impression having Ennis over was not her idea. As the later discussion in the kitchen deteriorated I was still convinced Alma cared about Ennis. I think she finally had to explode and unleash the source of her hurt. By doing so, Alma was able make Ennis aware of two important facts: (1) She knew the nature of his relationship with Jack and (2) Despite this knowledge, she still gave him opportunities to show that she actually mattered to him.
Yes Alma loved Ennis, but she had to let go to save herself.
...and don't you think that Ennis wanted her to be happy too. It isn't many men that will sit down to table with their ex-wife's new husband.
Jim
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...and don't you think that Ennis wanted her to be happy too. It isn't many men that will sit down to table with their ex-wife's new husband.
Jim
Very true!! Thanks for the reminder!
Jarrad
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But as I said, I think it was Ennis who initiated the divorce, and had he not done that, I think Alma would have gone on with him, loving him and at the same time, living in some denial about Jack and the implications of that.
I am long winded! My apologies for going on so. Hope that some ideas and theories came through for your consideration.
Thanks,
Jack in Maine
In the AP story, Alma initiated the divorce.
Also, I thiink Ennis married Alma because it was the thing to do (marrying young and having children) where they came from. At one point in my life all my friends were getting married and later everyone was getting diivorced.
I think Alma genuinely loved Ennis. And, I think Ennis loved Alma until he fell in love with Jack.
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It was clear from Alma's first scene that she loved Ennis. I also believe Ennis loved Alma, but not as his soul mate. What Alma witnessed in the stairwell became a startling revelation that she was not number one in Ennis's heart. Despite everything that happend afterwards, I'm convinced she still loved Ennis. I'm just glad she had enough sense to get out of a hopeless situation and find the happiness she deserved.
Something that came to mind as I watched again tonight at the point where Ennis dismisses Alma's suggestion that they smarten up an go to the church social - where and how would Ennis and Alma have met? Ennis grew up on a lonely ranch and left school very young ( I don't know about the US, but in Scotland if you left after one year of High School you would be 14) besides wasn't he in a different part of the state? It looks like most of her socialising is church based and I doubt Ennis is a regular attender. I can't see her hanging around bars either. She doesn't look like the sort that would make the first move (in a Cassie style) and goodness knows Ennis isn't much of a wordsmith. He doesn't even seem to have any friends who would introduce them. A bit trivial but I just can't see either of them making a move for the other.
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If Ennis got one year of high school and was hoping to be a sophomore the next year when the transmission went of the pickup so that he couldn't get there, he was talking about senior HS and he'd have left when he was about fifteen, I think. this means he's have had about four years working before he went up to Brokeback and I suppose he's have had time to meet Alma while he was moving round with his brother and sister - she could even have been an acaquaintance of his sister.
Ennis also says his folks were Methodist, a tradition his siter may have kept up if his brother and he didn't. No reason he couldn't have met Alma through his siblings or through church, and of course it was quite often true that people married someone they met simply because they were there and suitable - if you don't move around much, go off to college, etc., you tend to marry whoever is about your age and with whom you get on. Everyone around approves and in Ennis's case his brother and sister had married and would be glad to think he was doing the same. I can't see Ennis as falling romantically in love - Alma in the honeymoon scene looks as if she's happy to be with him b ut that soon fades away into routine.