Hi Ethan thanks for the warm welcome, I'ts australia day Public holiday :) thanks for the link there's so many views on the film from different ppl , thats what makes it so good btw in the tent scene when ennis came in from the cold who initiated it first did ennis put his arm over jack?
As they say at Oxbridge, first define your terms. What do you mean by "gay"?
For my money, Jack is, or would be, Ennis isn't. But what do I know about it?
Also, maybe Ennis wouldn't allow himself to think about other men so he could convince himself he wasn't queer.
Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?
My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)
Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?
My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)
You've echoed my thoughts exactly Lindsey, and I was even going to quote Heath Ledger's line about Ennis being a homophobic gay man, but you beat me to it. ;D (was that from the Charlie Rose interview, btw?). I think that sums Ennis up completely, and is highlighted in the "you been to Mexico Jack?" line. In my opinion, he was gay as was Jack (there are no doubts about Jack being gay at all), but Ennis wasnt able to accept it. He constantly denied his sexuality, persistently denying Jack any long-term commitment other than the fishing trips, and was never able to confront the truth, preferring instead to live a lie.
Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?
My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)
You've echoed my thoughts exactly Lindsey, and I was even going to quote Heath Ledger's line about Ennis being a homophobic gay man, but you beat me to it. ;D (was that from the Charlie Rose interview, btw?). I think that sums Ennis up completely, and is highlighted in the "you been to Mexico Jack?" line. In my opinion, he was gay as was Jack (there are no doubts about Jack being gay at all), but Ennis wasnt able to accept it. He constantly denied his sexuality, persistently denying Jack any long-term commitment other than the fishing trips, and was never able to confront the truth, preferring instead to live a lie.
Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?
My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)
You've echoed my thoughts exactly Lindsey, and I was even going to quote Heath Ledger's line about Ennis being a homophobic gay man, but you beat me to it. ;D (was that from the Charlie Rose interview, btw?). I think that sums Ennis up completely, and is highlighted in the "you been to Mexico Jack?" line. In my opinion, he was gay as was Jack (there are no doubts about Jack being gay at all), but Ennis wasnt able to accept it. He constantly denied his sexuality, persistently denying Jack any long-term commitment other than the fishing trips, and was never able to confront the truth, preferring instead to live a lie.
christie and NoReins, you are right, I believe, when you refer to Heath's comment.
I know we are treading on ground that brings out strong reactions here, but I do agree that this is what Proulx had meant when she referred to BBM as a study of homophobia. It's the tragedy of Ennis coming to grips with himself and his love. Both are conflicted. Both are deep.
Secondly, although I know that this kind of discussion can bring out strong reactions, I would like to think that we can debate it in an open and intelligent way that does not undermine the seriousness of the subject or the emotional effect that this film has had on many people.
As they say at Oxbridge, first define your terms. What do you mean by "gay"?
For my money, Jack is, or would be, Ennis isn't. But what do I know about it?
I'm going to say that Ennis was at least bisexual. Even after Jack was physically absent from his life, he fantasized about him and "wrang it out" 100 times thinking about Jack. Yes, we didn't see Ennis looking or thinking about other men, but Ennis was a much more faithful guy than Jack (okay, maybe not by Alma). Also, maybe Ennis wouldn't allow himself to think about other men so he could convince himself he wasn't queer. Just thinking out loud.
I think Ennis was less gay than Jacksexual. He didn't fantasize about men, just about Jack, and din't go looking for other men. He tried to convince himself ( and Jack, in the motel scene) that he was at least interested in women in general, not just Alma.I'm not so sure he was less gay than Jack. In the tent he did the penetration, as well as in the motel. True Jack did iniate it in the tent but Ennis, finished it in grand style. In the motel he had just given Jack a thorough jouncing, and was laying back contented in Jack's arms. Both of them were stuck in marriages entered in to for social convention not out deep commitment to the women in their lives. Ennis pretty much summed up at the motel.
Rushing in where angels fear to tread, I'm going to say something that is by no means original with me, but may seem controversial to some on the forum.
Sexuality--which for this purpose we can define as one's natural tendency to be attracted to men or women (or both)--is not an all-or-nothng, up or down, black or white question.
Many have compared sexuality to a continuum or a meter, say, with numbers from 1 to 10 (1 being totally hetero and 10 being totally homo.) Thus, I can't see either Jack or Ennis being a 1 or a 10, since they both have SOME interest in both sexes.
Probably Jack would have a somewhat higher number than Ennis. But it's up for debate how high their numbers would be.
Ahdunno. "Just thinking out loud."
:c)
How can he be gay when he's so bad-tempere and miserable?
~) Couldn't resist.
Here is a related question: if Ennis is gay, does it -- in a way -- make him less or more interesting to you?
For me, it is certainly more interesting if Ennis is indeed gay. His conflicting tendencies are cast into sharper focus.
Here is a related question: if Ennis is gay, does it -- in a way -- make him less or more interesting to you?
For me, it is certainly more interesting if Ennis is indeed gay. His conflicting tendencies are cast into sharper focus.
TPE, for me, if iEnnis is gay, is also a more interesting story. I cannot imagine the degree of inner pain and struggle he must have endured (BBM shows some).
My heart aches for Ennis :\'(
This topic is one that interests me because I have always heard about boys' boarding schools where it was often a rite of passage to have at least one homosexual encounter. Were all those boys gay? Did one incident make them gay? Does loving only one man, and never really even fantasizing about other men, make one gay? When I saw this movie with some friends, two of them said, immediately after the viewing, that Ennis and Jack were not gay. They just loved one another. (I know Jack had a lot of other men over the years and maybe before Ennis, too, but did he ever LOVE any of them?) Does love change anything where the gayness is concerned? Because Ennis loved Jack and ONLY had sex (homosexually) with Jack, is he gay or straight? Does it matter how many partners he had? What do you think? Also, if you read history, many of the ancient Greeks honored homosexuality. Many were married with children, but still had their men partners, and no one thought anything about that. It was considered natural. Were these men gay?????
Rushing in where angels fear to tread, I'm going to say something that is by no means original with me, but may seem controversial to some on the forum.
Sexuality--which for this purpose we can define as one's natural tendency to be attracted to men or women (or both)--is not an all-or-nothng, up or down, black or white question.
Many have compared sexuality to a continuum or a meter, say, with numbers from 1 to 10 (1 being totally hetero and 10 being totally homo.) Thus, I can't see either Jack or Ennis being a 1 or a 10, since they both have SOME interest in both sexes.
Probably Jack would have a somewhat higher number than Ennis. But it's up for debate how high their numbers would be.
Ahdunno. "Just thinking out loud."
:c)
Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way? I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that.
kathy
Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way? I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that.
kathy
I'll agree with Christie and tpe on that -- it does seem to bring out strong reactions. I base that on various on-board and off-board conversations I've been part of where any notion of Ennis being gay -- or not gay -- has launched some sharp debate.
Why is this?
I do think some people just enjoy a raucous debate, and this is the perfect topic for BBM'ers. Strong arguments can be made both ways, and it's a central point of the story. So the ground is fertile.
A second reason is in the way one defines "gay". To some people, when they speak of Ennis as "gay" they are speaking of Ennis' having a core desire of intimacy primarily directed toward men. Perhaps this was stunted greatly by internal homophobia, confusion and denial, but nevertheless they see it as there. Hence Ennis is gay. Others see the word "gay" as a more involved, complex tag that includes much more than that, including a sense of identity, a particular sensibility, even a way of life. Hence Ennis was a million miles away from this definition of "gay". This difference has been behind more than one "was Ennis gay?" debate. And clearly if you think of "gay" as the second, it is probably frustrating to see so many people using "gay" to describe our boy.
Finally I do think there are deeper undercurrents that influence some people to one degree or another. From some Ennis-is-gay people I've occasionally gotten the vibe that it is important to them for Ennis to be gay. Having someone so conventionally masculine "on their team" is an attractive aspect to the story. Making Ennis straight lessens the "gay" of this ground-breaking gay love story. Kind of like finding out that the beloved Asian detective Charlie Chan wasn't even played by an Asian actor. A possible, deeper subcontext could be that gay Ennis soothes self-doubts that gay men have about their own masculinity.
For those on the "Ennis is straight" side I've sometimes sensed strong notions that making Ennis gay cheapens the story. That a straight Ennis is important to validate the incredible power of love overwhelming even innate sexual orientation. If Ennis and Jack are just a couple of gay guys, it's just another love story with obstacles. I knew someone who even felt it cheapened the power love itself (as shown in the story) if they were both gay. (He did not imply or believe that gay love is less than straight love, but that Ennis being straight added a critical dimension to the story.) A deeper subcontext could be that straight Ennis appeals to the notion that the power of pure love can make a straight man fall in love with a gay man.
No, I'm not saying that these are the true motivations behind people on the two sides of the argument. But as the issue has come up in debate over the past month, I do think some of the heat on this topic came from these competing ideas, each with its own attraction.
In the case of Ennis, there are arguments that can be made in support of his gayness. Likewise, there are similar arguments that can be made to the contrary. But the strongest point in support of gayness is Proulx's acknowledgement that BBM is a study of homohobia. The implication is that of going against one's own inner nature. This implication is clearly not about a passing phase. It references the deepest aspect of every one of us: that the nature of how we love and who we love will inevitably see the light and assert itself -- no matter what society or upbringing conditions us to think.
Rushing in where angels fear to tread, I'm going to say something that is by no means original with me, but may seem controversial to some on the forum.
Sexuality--which for this purpose we can define as one's natural tendency to be attracted to men or women (or both)--is not an all-or-nothng, up or down, black or white question.
Many have compared sexuality to a continuum or a meter, say, with numbers from 1 to 10 (1 being totally hetero and 10 being totally homo.) Thus, I can't see either Jack or Ennis being a 1 or a 10, since they both have SOME interest in both sexes.
Probably Jack would have a somewhat higher number than Ennis. But it's up for debate how high their numbers would be.
Ahdunno. "Just thinking out loud."
:c)
I totally think this, too -- all aspects of people, not just in their sexuality, are on a continuum. And not only a 1 to 10 meter, but all different aspects, such as what is your natural gender (not that that is even always clear), how masculine or feminine you express your gender, how people perceive you, who you're attracted to, all of that. Anyway, these are two fascinating characters to spend time trying to figure out! :f)
Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way? I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that. I thought that's what we love to talk about here, these characters and their sexual inclinations. And our own, if we want to talk about it.
kathy
Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way? I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that.
kathy
I'll agree with Christie and tpe on that -- it does seem to bring out strong reactions. I base that on various on-board and off-board conversations I've been part of where any notion of Ennis being gay -- or not gay -- has launched some sharp debate.
Why is this?
I do think some people just enjoy a raucous debate, and this is the perfect topic for BBM'ers. Strong arguments can be made both ways, and it's a central point of the story. So the ground is fertile.
A second reason is in the way one defines "gay". To some people, when they speak of Ennis as "gay" they are speaking of Ennis' having a core desire of intimacy primarily directed toward men. Perhaps this was stunted greatly by internal homophobia, confusion and denial, but nevertheless they see it as there. Hence Ennis is gay. Others see the word "gay" as a more involved, complex tag that includes much more than that, including a sense of identity, a particular sensibility, even a way of life. Hence Ennis was a million miles away from this definition of "gay". This difference has been behind more than one "was Ennis gay?" debate. And clearly if you think of "gay" as the second, it is probably frustrating to see so many people using "gay" to describe our boy.
Finally I do think there are deeper undercurrents that influence some people to one degree or another. From some Ennis-is-gay people I've occasionally gotten the vibe that it is important to them for Ennis to be gay. Having someone so conventionally masculine "on their team" is an attractive aspect to the story. Making Ennis straight lessens the "gay" of this ground-breaking gay love story. Kind of like finding out that the beloved Asian detective Charlie Chan wasn't even played by an Asian actor. A possible, deeper subcontext could be that gay Ennis soothes self-doubts that gay men have about their own masculinity.
For those on the "Ennis is straight" side I've sometimes sensed strong notions that making Ennis gay cheapens the story. That a straight Ennis is important to validate the incredible power of love overwhelming even innate sexual orientation. If Ennis and Jack are just a couple of gay guys, it's just another love story with obstacles. I knew someone who even felt it cheapened the power love itself (as shown in the story) if they were both gay. (He did not imply or believe that gay love is less than straight love, but that Ennis being straight added a critical dimension to the story.) A deeper subcontext could be that straight Ennis appeals to the notion that the power of pure love can make a straight man fall in love with a gay man.
No, I'm not saying that these are the true motivations behind people on the two sides of the argument. But as the issue has come up in debate over the past month, I do think some of the heat on this topic came from these competing ideas, each with its own attraction.
It's so complicated, try to understand the heart of a lonely man, maybe he was not, or maybe he just want to be gay but deny this feeling because his world will be cruel with him...
Let's see, how do I see Ennis? As having since his younger years at the least curiosity about loving men (which curiosity of course had to have come from feeling inclined that way) and then all those feelings and curiosity being tainted by the Earl situation, and thus his terrible internal conflicts and repression. So I can see him at 19 as neither straight nor gay. Or, I should say, both straight and gay. Living a straight life, but having gayness in his heart. Enter Jack... (Yet the question still never got a chance to really get answered, just because of his psychoemotional composition of fighting himself and Jack over this love he felt.)
kathy
I very much respect your thoughts, tpe, but I'm afraid I have to disagree. I understand Proulx's comment as the role of society in the work. If I recall, she included the setting in her comment to which you refer.... Something like "a study of homophobia in Wyoming at that time." Thus, I think her comment emphasizes the social factors like Ennis's upbringing, the Earl incident, the need for the "I'm not queer" conversation, etc. Also, the spectre of the tire iron which hangs over the short story (more than the movie) is a sort of symbol for the REAL THREAT of violence and death that Jack and Ennis had to face. I thought Ennis's statement "If this thing grabs ahold of us at the wrong place, wrong time, we're dead" was more of a central passage in the short story. It indicates more about the reality of the society than any of Ennis's personal hangups.
Then of course there is the death of Jack, which proves Ennis was right and proves that society really was homophobic.
I don't actually think "homophobic" is an accurate term to apply to a man who is gay but ashamed. I think it applies to straight people/dominant culture who are afraid something different from themselves.
Ennis gay? maybe (but, as I indicated, it's not a black/white issue imo). Ennis homophobic? maybe. But if so, it could possibly indicate he's straight, or at least that he's bought into the dominant culture's marginalization of/discrimination against gay people.
Hi, I've come back to this interesting topic after months, because there is a discussion going on on the "you may be a sinner" thread, about whether Ennis is gay and if he really wanted Jack to come on to him in the FNIT scene or not. So I remembered this thread and I can see it has evolved a lot since I last read it.
What struck me most were the ideas that people either "need" Ennis to be gay or the opposite. That they need it to accomodate their own views of the world, of love of gayness. I think that is so true! The same thing happens with another topic that was heatedly discussed for a time: Is being gay or homosexual something you are born with or not ( a thread I started in January). I would say, in both cases, it has to do with what we need to be true, both as a society and as an individual. The answers have been widely different over the centuries, even the ancient Greeks and Romans already disagreed about it. And this is why there is such a heated discussion going on about it.
Do I think Ennis was gay? As I said in the other thread: If being gay means defining yourself as gay, then no, Ennis never defined himself as gay. He fought hard against that all his life and it nearly (or fully)) broke him up as a human being. If being gay means having sex with other men (or one man), then yes, he is gay. If being gay means focussing your desire for intimacy on one sex or the other, I'm not sure, because there definitely was intimacy with Alma as well. And many marriages never get more intimate than what Ennis and Alma had. He wanted so desperately to have a real family, a home life, what he couldn't have as a kid, because his parents died early on: He wanted security, normality, and a life with Jack couldn't give him that. But he couldn't live without Jack either. So he was caught in between. And maybe that is what we will have to say in the end: He was caught between being gay and leading a "normal" life, because he couldn't keep from wanting both, and both society and the way he was made emotionally didn't allow him any way out. Poor Ennis! Poor everybody, who has or had to live with this dilemma. You all have my unswerving solidarity. We shall overcome %)
monicita
If it has to do with how one sees oneself, then Ennis doesn't see himself as gay; not a word he'd have recognized in context. He tried to believe or convince himslef he was straight, I think, hence so many of his problems. Don't know how Jack would have defined himself, though I think, if the word had been current, he wouldn't have objected to gay as a description of him.
Strictly speaking since they both had sex with another man/men and both fathered children I suppose they're both bisexual. I can almost imagine Jack taking a sort of pride in that epithet, but not Ennis.
After reading all the recent posts on this thread, I think the answer is obvious. It really just does not matter what Ennis was. Why do we have to label everything? The fact is, he loved Jack, and, I do believe, he loved Alma, although it probably wasn't to the same degree. We always have to pigeonhole everyone, but for what purpose? Well, Ennis is Ennis, and he is consistent throughout the story. He is true to himself, and that's enough for me.
Hi, I've come back to this interesting topic after months, because there is a discussion going on on the "you may be a sinner" thread, about whether Ennis is gay and if he really wanted Jack to come on to him in the FNIT scene or not. So I remembered this thread and I can see it has evolved a lot since I last read it.
What struck me most were the ideas that people either "need" Ennis to be gay or the opposite. That they need it to accomodate their own views of the world, of love of gayness. I think that is so true! The same thing happens with another topic that was heatedly discussed for a time: Is being gay or homosexual something you are born with or not ( a thread I started in January). I would say, in both cases, it has to do with what we need to be true, both as a society and as an individual. The answers have been widely different over the centuries, even the ancient Greeks and Romans already disagreed about it. And this is why there is such a heated discussion going on about it.
Do I think Ennis was gay? As I said in the other thread: If being gay means defining yourself as gay, then no, Ennis never defined himself as gay. He fought hard against that all his life and it nearly (or fully)) broke him up as a human being. If being gay means having sex with other men (or one man), then yes, he is gay. If being gay means focussing your desire for intimacy on one sex or the other, I'm not sure, because there definitely was intimacy with Alma as well. And many marriages never get more intimate than what Ennis and Alma had. He wanted so desperately to have a real family, a home life, what he couldn't have as a kid, because his parents died early on: He wanted security, normality, and a life with Jack couldn't give him that. But he couldn't live without Jack either. So he was caught in between. And maybe that is what we will have to say in the end: He was caught between being gay and leading a "normal" life, because he couldn't keep from wanting both, and both society and the way he was made emotionally didn't allow him any way out. Poor Ennis! Poor everybody, who has or had to live with this dilemma. You all have my unswerving solidarity. We shall overcome %)
monicita
Interestingly enough the term bi-sexual is hardly mentioned as if it's a bad word. Since we are on this topic, I would love some input as to why that is. I'm sure the answers will be intruiging.
Ennis seems neither gay nor straight...yes he fell in love with a man but he was still "able" to have sex with other women. Gray area=bisexual to me. However, labeling humans as anything at all can be destructive in so many ways.
I'll say right out that I would call myself bisexual, well aware that it bothers some people. I think anyone with a "gray area" opinion about anything, not just their sexual identity, is often disapproved of by some people, because those some people want their answers in yes or no, black or white. I don't generally do black or white.
I would hope that's changing, the need to say one way is right and the other way is wrong. I always hope everything is changing, for the better of course -- but I'm not so sure. Besides, the definition of "bisexual" is as not-clear-cut as the definitions of "gay" and "straight." Anyway, it's not exactly even true that I'm bisexual, only unless the male of the equation is also bisexual -- in other words, I wouldn't be with "straight" men or women, only gay or bisexual men or women. And while we're at it, I have strong feelings for transgendered people, though that doesn't really have anything to do with this BBM story. Only that I would hope we can add some of that into our mix also.
kathy
I guess youre right, it's the need for a yes or no answer...a black and white clear cut situation. Some people will never be comfortable with the gray area and will always have a need to define themselves and others...an impossible task!! Thanks for your input.Interestingly enough the term bi-sexual is hardly mentioned as if it's a bad word. Since we are on this topic, I would love some input as to why that is. I'm sure the answers will be intruiging.
Ennis seems neither gay nor straight...yes he fell in love with a man but he was still "able" to have sex with other women. Gray area=bisexual to me. However, labeling humans as anything at all can be destructive in so many ways.
I'll say right out that I would call myself bisexual, well aware that it bothers some people. I think anyone with a "gray area" opinion about anything, not just their sexual identity, is often disapproved of by some people, because those some people want their answers in yes or no, black or white. I don't generally do black or white.
I would hope that's changing, the need to say one way is right and the other way is wrong. I always hope everything is changing, for the better of course -- but I'm not so sure. Besides, the definition of "bisexual" is as not-clear-cut as the definitions of "gay" and "straight." Anyway, it's not exactly even true that I'm bisexual, only unless the male of the equation is also bisexual -- in other words, I wouldn't be with "straight" men or women, only gay or bisexual men or women. And while we're at it, I have strong feelings for transgendered people, though that doesn't really have anything to do with this BBM story. Only that I would hope we can add some of that into our mix also.
kathy
kathy
When we see ennis and Jack in the SNIT sequences what matters is the love and tenderness between them, not whether they're male, female or Martian.
Christie and tpe, why does this subject "bring strong reactions out" by the way? I found that a bit curious, to read you both say that.
kathy
I'll agree with Christie and tpe on that -- it does seem to bring out strong reactions. I base that on various on-board and off-board conversations I've been part of where any notion of Ennis being gay -- or not gay -- has launched some sharp debate.
Why is this?
I do think some people just enjoy a raucous debate, and this is the perfect topic for BBM'ers. Strong arguments can be made both ways, and it's a central point of the story. So the ground is fertile.
A second reason is in the way one defines "gay". To some people, when they speak of Ennis as "gay" they are speaking of Ennis' having a core desire of intimacy primarily directed toward men. Perhaps this was stunted greatly by internal homophobia, confusion and denial, but nevertheless they see it as there. Hence Ennis is gay. Others see the word "gay" as a more involved, complex tag that includes much more than that, including a sense of identity, a particular sensibility, even a way of life. Hence Ennis was a million miles away from this definition of "gay". This difference has been behind more than one "was Ennis gay?" debate. And clearly if you think of "gay" as the second, it is probably frustrating to see so many people using "gay" to describe our boy.
Finally I do think there are deeper undercurrents that influence some people to one degree or another. From some Ennis-is-gay people I've occasionally gotten the vibe that it is important to them for Ennis to be gay. Having someone so conventionally masculine "on their team" is an attractive aspect to the story. Making Ennis straight lessens the "gay" of this ground-breaking gay love story. Kind of like finding out that the beloved Asian detective Charlie Chan wasn't even played by an Asian actor. A possible, deeper subcontext could be that gay Ennis soothes self-doubts that gay men have about their own masculinity.
For those on the "Ennis is straight" side I've sometimes sensed strong notions that making Ennis gay cheapens the story. That a straight Ennis is important to validate the incredible power of love overwhelming even innate sexual orientation. If Ennis and Jack are just a couple of gay guys, it's just another love story with obstacles. I knew someone who even felt it cheapened the power love itself (as shown in the story) if they were both gay. (He did not imply or believe that gay love is less than straight love, but that Ennis being straight added a critical dimension to the story.) A deeper subcontext could be that straight Ennis appeals to the notion that the power of pure love can make a straight man fall in love with a gay man.
No, I'm not saying that these are the true motivations behind people on the two sides of the argument. But as the issue has come up in debate over the past month, I do think some of the heat on this topic came from these competing ideas, each with its own attraction.
Let's see, how do I see Ennis? As having since his younger years at the least curiosity about loving men (which curiosity of course had to have come from feeling inclined that way) and then all those feelings and curiosity being tainted by the Earl situation, and thus his terrible internal conflicts and repression. So I can see him at 19 as neither straight nor gay. Or, I should say, both straight and gay. Living a straight life, but having gayness in his heart. Enter Jack... (Yet the question still never got a chance to really get answered, just because of his psychoemotional composition of fighting himself and Jack over this love he felt.)
kathy
The answer is less important than the process of seeking out an answer. Thanks kathy.
To add to the confusion are the enigmatic statements "You know I ain't queer" and "Me neither". To me, there is a subtle distinction between "queerness" and "gayness" in the context of that scene...
Let's see, how do I see Ennis? As having since his younger years at the least curiosity about loving men (which curiosity of course had to have come from feeling inclined that way) and then all those feelings and curiosity being tainted by the Earl situation, and thus his terrible internal conflicts and repression. So I can see him at 19 as neither straight nor gay. Or, I should say, both straight and gay. Living a straight life, but having gayness in his heart. Enter Jack... (Yet the question still never got a chance to really get answered, just because of his psychoemotional composition of fighting himself and Jack over this love he felt.)
kathy
The answer is less important than the process of seeking out an answer. Thanks kathy.
To add to the confusion are the enigmatic statements "You know I ain't queer" and "Me neither". To me, there is a subtle distinction between "queerness" and "gayness" in the context of that scene...
Oh jeez, thanks a lot, tpe -- you're going to get me going again, and I was trying to leave this thread for now. ^*()
I totally agree with you, though, about the process of seeking the answer -- the journey rather than the destination.
As to "gay" and "queer," I just think the term gay wasn't used then, simple as that. Queer was the term used so that's what they said. As to saying they were not queer, that is discussed at length on another thread is it not?
kathy
I agree with you, tpe, about labels. They are useful to some degree. Also, I agree that it is interesting, and maybe even valuable, to discuss Ennis' and Jack's sexuality. However, what I am saying is that, in the end, the important thing is that they loved one another -- not that they were hetero-homo-or bi-sexual.
When I said Ennis was consistent throughout the story, I meant that he always has denied his own sexuality. He never vacillates. Even when he's with Jack, he does not feel that he is OK -- He feels as if he is doing something wrong. He consistently feels that way. His father did a number on him, and, no matter what he faces in the future, he cannot forget his father's judgement about "queers". He will always feel that he is doing something wrong when he loves Jack. That is a big shame, but no one can change Ennis at this point. All any of us can do is hope the newer generation grows up without the hang ups of the past -- that kids today can be more free and accepting of themselves and others.
It's so complicated, try to understand the heart of a lonely man, maybe he was not, or maybe he just want to be gay but deny this feeling because his world will be cruel with him...
I'm replying to this post a second time. You've made me think of something else on this subject. First of all, of course, defining anything depends on the terms of the person doing the defining. I think that defining Ennis as gay or straight would have even more significance to one particular group: straight men. I'll just say this about straight men, not women, because generally speaking, straight women are more accepting of gay men than straight men are. I know that's a big generalization and isn't always true by any means, but for straight (or any) women, gay men can be the best of both worlds -- they're not a physical threat, as in rape, which straight men are; and we can be friends without the bothersome aspects of sexual tension and all that leads to. It's a beautiful thing for Mars and Venus to be friends, more rare than same-sex friends. Kind of the opposite of being gay. ;)
Anyway, back to straight men, who are, after all, "society." I want this movie to have a big impact on how society sees gay men. So, to the "typical" straight man (if there is such a thing) (and I don't think "typical" would apply to any of our straight men here on this forum)...to the typical straight man, is the story of Ennis and Jack more powerful and potentially life-changing to a straight man if Ennis is straight or if he's gay? You'd think the answer would be the obvious one: if Ennis is straight. But on the other hand, let's say Ennis is gay -- straight men could relate to Ennis, see a man something like themselves, and that such a man can find his gayness and live it. If he doesn't repress it, that is, to his own and everyone else's detriment. If "society," i.e., said straight male viewers, doesn't kill him phyically or kill his spirit.
Oh shoot, it's just too complex. I'm sorry -- I say too many words, make too many statements with too many qualifiers and don't really come to any conclusions. I think we might all know the answers when we die. But I love delving into the complexities of Ennis and Jack, and talking about how they affect our own lives. And I know this isn't my therapy group so quit your yammerin' already.
kathy
I agree with you, tpe, about labels. They are useful to some degree. Also, I agree that it is interesting, and maybe even valuable, to discuss Ennis' and Jack's sexuality. However, what I am saying is that, in the end, the important thing is that they loved one another -- not that they were hetero-homo-or bi-sexual.
When I said Ennis was consistent throughout the story, I meant that he always has denied his own sexuality. He never vacillates. Even when he's with Jack, he does not feel that he is OK -- He feels as if he is doing something wrong. He consistently feels that way. His father did a number on him, and, no matter what he faces in the future, he cannot forget his father's judgement about "queers". He will always feel that he is doing something wrong when he loves Jack. That is a big shame, but no one can change Ennis at this point. All any of us can do is hope the newer generation grows up without the hang ups of the past -- that kids today can be more free and accepting of themselves and others.
Yes. In the end, it is who you love that defines you, independent of gender or sexual orientation.
As for the newer generation, we can only hope. But old prejudices die hard, no? Some just become more subtle. They may be replacing an open prejudice with a more nuanced one. Let us hope that this is not the case.
The reason I'm quite sure attitudes will be a bit better among the present high-school age generation is what I have observed as a high school teachcer. I find the kids to be much more accepting of all kinds of differences. Of course, I realize this isn't ALL the kids. A lot has to do with who is raising them. In general, though, I feel there is more acceptance of people of other races and other sexual orientation.Jack's fear first and foremost appears to be running Ennis off. Secondly, the 60's and the places they were both raised. Jack did not appear to be overly concerned about Jimbo and Randall knowing.
Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's. Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis. What is Jack's fear?
Back OT, it seems we spend a lot of time discussing Ennis's se4xuality, but don't say too much about Jack's. Surely Jack was more sexually active homosexually, but he, too, denies he is queer to Ennis. What is Jack's fear?
tpe, I'm all for it: Let's open a new thread!
monicita
Did Heath Ledger not say that he felt Ennis was a homophobic gay man?
My thoughts are that they were both gay. Jack accepted it and was therefore able to have other homosexual experiences, while Ennis could never accept it, something which Jack understood very early on (denying that he was queer in order to make sure Ennis didn't run a mile)
...he was/is in for beeing a homophobic gay man in love...
Kathy,
I was very touched by both your last posts. Thank you! I am so with you on the bisexuality issue. And I do hope people will come to be more accepting of the grey areas. It ties in neatly with another of my concerns: Bisexuality and transsexuality don't tie in very well with the wish to define people's sexuality, gender, whatever biologically, to say: This is how I (or you) have been from birth and will always remain. I think this is one of the reasons why people want to press others (and themselves) into categories. It feels safer to have something that has clear boundaries. And let's face it: It IS unfair that heterosexuals have it so much easier here.
I also find the question interesting whether it is more of a challenge to straight men for Ennis to be gay or straight. My experiences in Mexico have taught me that everything is ok as long as gay people are clearly defined as "sissies". These sissies are never oneself. One can always point a finger at them and let them exist (barely) in their ghetto. And even gay men do that! So I think both is a challenge: Ennis straight: Would mean, it can happen to anybody, even to me - the macho guy. Ennis gay: would mean - you can't even spot if a guy is gay or not, he looks just like one of us macho guys, so how do I show I'm not one of them?
monicita
Kathy, don't apologise, I've really enjoyed reading your posts on this thread, I found them really interesting and thought-provoking :)
And I don't think any of us (not just here, but in the world in general) are likely to ever come to any definite conclusions on this subject, like you say it's so complex. Personally, I think the easiest way of looking at it is that we're all potentially bi-sexual, but it's mostly down to circumstance who our sexual partners are, whatever sex they might be. If Ennis had never met Jack, he probably would never have had any kind of experience with men, and the thought he might be gay would probably have never even crossed his mind.If he had met Jack,but hadn't already been engaged to Alma, he might never have had any relationships with women, and just saved himself for Jack. Jack, on the other hand, would have had plenty of sex/relationships with men, but might very well still have married Lureen (or some other woman), and so could be defined as bi-sexual.
Up until recently,I would've said that Jack was the more obviously gay one out of Ennis and Jack, but watching the scene with Jack and Lureen in the car the other night, it occured to me that Jack, for all his awkwardness with Lureen, does seem to be having more fun than Ennis ever seems to with either Alma or Cassie. I feel that Ennis had sex with women because he felt he had to, rather than because he wanted to, and only really wanted to have sex with Jack,so Jack being a man, that would make Ennis gay. Jack seems to be only attracted to men, when he's the one making the moves, but when Lureen makes a move on him, even though he knows deep down it's not what he wants, he seems very much open to the possibility he might enjoy it, so that would make him at least bi-curious ??? The "fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going" line (which always turns me into a drooling wreck) sums up the whole thing for me,just substitute "fast or slow" for "male or female", if you like the direction someone's going, surely that's all that matters :)
kathy, I thank you for sharing this. You need not delete it. We all reveal a bit of ourselves if only to connect. What you have "flung" out here out will catch somewhere, rest assured.
tpe, I'm all for it: Let's open a new thread!
monicita
OOT: Hello monicita. :) Would you want to create the thread? If not, let me know and I shall do it.
Hey Kathy,
great you're on this thread! I'm so happy I'm not the only one with that kind of background (hippie utopianist with all kinds of sexual persuasions and experiences and those hardly as monogamous as most people's) #) There is one thing in your last post where I beg to differ, however: You say that homophobia is the responsibility of a homophobic society and not our's. Well, I think we are part of that society and we are also, in a way, part of homophobia. It is similar to the way people point at others and say "they are racists and they have to change that". But being racist is not something one either is totally or not at all: There are always degrees of racist thought in everybody. And I have caught myself at thoughts that have some racist content (even if it is "positive" racism, like thinking that black people are better at dancing - just a random example). Same thing with homophobia: On this forum there have been many people saying, for example, that they feel uncomfortable with the "queeny" way of being gay: the crossdressing, wristflapping, transsexual way of being gay. I personally love that a lot, but I have so many gay friends who feel uncomfortable about it, who need to make it very clear that they are a very different sort of gay man, a real man. I'm not saying that is wrong in any way, but I am saying that this is a product of homophobic society which makes it hard for anybody to identify with the "sissy" image, gay or not. Where am I heading? I want to appeal to all of us, not to think that we are on an island outside society here, where no homophobic thought will ever occur. Because I have an interest in changing the homophobic status quo. And that is only possible if we see ourselves as part of what is happening out there. Okay, nuff preaching &**) In case it should have sounded overcritical: %) all, and I'm German, they love to criticize (another stereotype...) ^^) And I know this is *o)
monicita
I guess the Kirk and Spock thing is descended form Leslie Fiedler's theory about the underlying homoeroticism in many classic American novels?
I'm sure you're right. tpe; it's also true of some straight people, of course, though probably more rarely. Like Ennis, though, perhaps the peole you're talking about are conditioned by society - it's almost impossible to disentangle how much influence that has. If Ennsi had grown up in anothe time and place would he have been more accepting of himself? There's no answer, of course.
NOt surprisingly, there is a huge segment of the gay population who would pretty much identify with Ennis. Let us not forget that there is a vast number of gay people who constanty struggle to come to grips with their sexuality, and we're talking about gays who ARE OUT, mind you...
I guess the Kirk and Spock thing is descended form Leslie Fiedler's theory about the underlying homoeroticism in many classic American novels?
Sorry, OT, so back to Ennis... Oh my god, Ennis...does my heart break for him. If only he had been able to look out at the world a little more, even in 1963, even earlier as a teen, and certainly after 1963, and find glimmers in other people of what he was himself feeling, and not feel so alone, and learn what to do about why he hated how he felt...
Sorry, OT, so back to Ennis... Oh my god, Ennis...does my heart break for him. If only he had been able to look out at the world a little more, even in 1963, even earlier as a teen, and certainly after 1963, and find glimmers in other people of what he was himself feeling, and not feel so alone, and learn what to do about why he hated how he felt...
You know Kathy, I wonder if you've hit a on an aspect of Ennis' love for Jack that hasn't been discussed much. I'm someone who believes Ennis was not simply an average straight man who happens to out of the blue fall in love with another man. I believe he had some homosexual thoughts, feelings and inclinations before he met Jack. Imagine how affirming, in a way, it must have been to find someone else who felt the same way. Someone to tell him "it's alright". I think this was a significant thread within the complex fabric of love and attraction.
But sadly, as we know, Ennis never really reconciled all this within himself. Certainly not while Jack was alive. Jack told him it was alright, and clearly Ennis took comfort in that. But he never really believed it himself. Not consistently, at least. The conflict within Ennis really rips my heart out when I focus on it.
Sorry, OT, so back to Ennis... Oh my god, Ennis...does my heart break for him. If only he had been able to look out at the world a little more, even in 1963, even earlier as a teen, and certainly after 1963, and find glimmers in other people of what he was himself feeling, and not feel so alone, and learn what to do about why he hated how he felt...
You know Kathy, I wonder if you've hit a on an aspect of Ennis' love for Jack that hasn't been discussed much. I'm someone who believes Ennis was not simply an average straight man who happens to out of the blue fall in love with another man. I believe he had some homosexual thoughts, feelings and inclinations before he met Jack. Imagine how affirming, in a way, it must have been to find someone else who felt the same way. Someone to tell him "it's alright". I think this was a significant thread within the complex fabric of love and attraction.
But sadly, as we know, Ennis never really reconciled all this within himself. Certainly not while Jack was alive. Jack told him it was alright, and clearly Ennis took comfort in that. But he never really believed it himself. Not consistently, at least. The conflict within Ennis really rips my heart out when I focus on it.
dalemidix: Yes, it rips my heart out, too. I think Ennis needed more than only Jack telling him it's alright. He saw Jack as a dreamer and unrealistic, whereas he thought his own take on life was the realistic one. At first, certainly, what an incredible joy to be thrown together with Jack and to find a kindred spirit. But he couldn't from the start reconcile that with what he had to do -- go back and marry Alma.
Yes, it rips my heart out, too. I think Ennis needed more than only Jack telling him it's alright. He saw Jack as a dreamer and unrealistic, whereas he thought his own take on life was the realistic one. At first, certainly, what an incredible joy to be thrown together with Jack and to find a kindred spirit. But he couldn't from the start reconcile that with what he had to do -- go back and marry Alma.
I do think Ennis's sense of pragmatism got in the way of his love for Jack. But I do also think that Jack must have been a revelation to Ennis. I do think that Ennis did take some comfort in Jack's reassurances, even if they did not change Ennis's pragmatic view of life and the world. I guess that's why Ennis loved Jack.
All of these posts are so good, tpe, dalemidex, welshwitch -- so much to think about, so many different ways to think about Ennis and Jack and what might have been. I like what you said, dalemidex: what if they had not been such contrasting personalities? How would that have affected Ennis's discoveries of himself. I think maybe that yes, the attraction wouldn't have been so charged. Although that slower and more cautious approach might have helped Ennis "come out" easier -- or maybe the two would have come out together, in a closer process -- than with Jack, who Ennis saw as already knowing the ways of the world more than he did.
And ww, you hit it right on the head, I think -- that away from Jack, Ennis couldn't keep up the exhilarating sense he got from Jack of how he could be.
kathy
And I do agree that Jack was a catalyst as well as an exhilarating influence on Ennis's persona.
I agree too that Jack was the catalyst.
What I don't know - Whether or not Ennis was gay.
What I do know - Ennis was in love with Jack . . . and always will be. :\'(
What I don't know - Whether or not Ennis was gay.
What I do know - Ennis was in love with Jack . . . and always will be. :\'(
........ I think we see the "wow, who IS this guy" in Ennis' face more than once or twice.
........ I think we see the "wow, who IS this guy" in Ennis' face more than once or twice.
..and isn't it beautiful to see......... I like the way you've put that dalemidex. :)
Whether or not we agree that Ennis was gay, we do recognize the veracity of that love that blossomed between them. I think in most of the scenes, that love was so understated. But we recognize it all the same, as in the subtle hints mentioned above.
Whether or not we agree that Ennis was gay, we do recognize the veracity of that love that blossomed between them. I think in most of the scenes, that love was so understated. But we recognize it all the same, as in the subtle hints mentioned above.
Indeed, we see that love. Understated, perhaps, but obvious to us and those who know what they're looking at. We were lucky to get Heath and Jake to give us such expressive characters -- it's totally in their eyes and expressions and body language all the time. Let's see, way up there with the best ones are: the look on Jack's face when he's watching Ennis chattering away; then Ennis looking at him, saying "whut?" and then the smile after he says "that's the most I spoke..." You can certainly see Ennis's pleasure in this newfound friendship and, I believe, his realization that it can be be more than a friendship...but that still doesn't answer "Is Ennis gay?" Oh well -- I guess we'll just have to keep discussing it! :i
I also love how you said it, dalemidex. Ennis is all like "who IS this guy?" Making me LOL.
kathy
Thanks kathy. I don't want to start a new argument about this ;) but there are sometimes advantages when sexually ambiguous characters are played by receptive and sympathetic straight men, the same way that straight roles have been played very well by less than straight actors.
I guess what gets added is a certain twist in the point of view that surprises us. A fresh look from a different vantage point can sometimes succeed beautifully, as I think is the case with heath and Jake in BBM.
After all, a good actor should be able to projectn himself into any role very convincingly, as a good mirror captures an image.
I think of him as gay-on-the-mountain and gay-with-Jack, but not otherwise.
In that case, the mountain was his closet and Jack was the only scrap of clothing that can keep him warm. The ability for straight actors to play gay characters convincingly just proof what great actors Heath and Jake really are. IMO their abilities in this awesome movie exceeds those of many veteran actors today.
In that case, the mountain was his closet and Jack was the only scrap of clothing that can keep him warm. The ability for straight actors to play gay characters convincingly just proof what great actors Heath and Jake really are. IMO their abilities in this awesome movie exceeds those of many veteran actors today.
You have expressed my sentiments exactly, except, I went one further. I said they were the best actors in my lifetime, and heaven knows there have been some great actors and actresses in the past 60 years.
This is a question to which I have had different answers at different times, involving many of the points that have been mentioned on this thread and elsewhere on this forum. But I have come to the conclusion that Ennis was gay. In explaining why I think this, I will start by defining terms, as Welshwitch suggested. By "gay" in this context, I mean having an ongoing physical/sexual attraction for people of the same sex/gender, which is stronger than any such attraction for people of "the opposite" sex. It also involves identity of one's self, though in this case Ennis fights against it throughout the entire film. It was interesting for me to read that Ang Lee himself had no qualms about Ennis being gay, and said he thougt it was obvious as to what/who attracted Ennis. Obvious from Ang Lee's perspective translates quite differently for me and obviously for many others here. For us it wasn't obvious at all.
For me, it boils down to the conversation Ennis and Jack have at their next-to-last (in the film) camping trip, where Ennis asks Jack if things between Jack and Lureen are "normal", and does she-Lureen-ever "suspect". Then he gets down to brass tacks and asks the question that has been eating at him for years, does he-Jack-ever get the feeling that other people "know". He gives that word "know" special emphasis. It implies others are aware of something that he has been trying to hide. In this context, I don't think he is merely referring to his ongoing affair with, or love for, Jack Twist, the details of which may have become public-via Alma- after his divorce. The question arises from a fear that is more central to his being and sense of who he is. It is so central and so frightening for him that he cannot bring himself to utter just exactly what it is others know about him, but he assumes-correctly-that Jack will understand his meaning. He interestingly does not phrase it as other people thinking he's queer,-to use his word- but knowing, thus, perhaps inadvertantly, certifying its truth. This is Ennis's great secret that he has been hiding, not least from himself, all his life.
Jack's response, that maybe Ennis ought to get out of there and move somewhere else, suggests that this is exactly how he understood the question, and being intimately knowlegeable about Ennis's fear, he offers the first suggestion that comes to his mind. That's our Jack, remember? "Ready, shoot, aim." He doesn't seem to quite grasp the signficance of what Ennis is asking/telling him. As one who struggled mightilyfor more than two decades with trying to keep exactly this secret, I cannot really see any equally plausible interpretation of just what Ennis is so afraid of other people knowing about him.
As for Ennis wanting a family, it is here that I think Ennis displays one of his most striking character flaws. He may indeed want a family, but he is unwilling to commit himself to making the sacrifices necessary to provide for them adequately, and spends all of his free vacation time-according to the story-on fishing trips with Jack, never with Alma or his daughters. He compromises his 'career' in doing so. This doesn't speak well of a sincere desire to be a good husband and father, at least in the ways which would count in his rural Wyoming culture. On the other hand, having a wife and kids is the best insurance he can provide himself and the outside world that he is not, in fact, gay/queer. They inadvertantly help him prop up his denial system, to their detriment. I'm not saying he doesn't love his wife and daughters, in his way, but he fails-or is unable-to give them priorty in his life. So, that's my two cents worth.
Then he gets down to brass tacks and asks the question that has been eating at him for years, does he-Jack-ever get the feeling that other people "know". He gives that word "know" special emphasis. It implies others are aware of something that he has been trying to hide. In this context, I don't think he is merely referring to his ongoing affair with, or love for, Jack Twist, the details of which may have become public-via Alma- after his divorce. The question arises from a fear that is more central to his being and sense of who he is. It is so central and so frightening for him that he cannot bring himself to utter just exactly what it is others know about him, but he assumes-correctly-that Jack will understand his meaning. He interestingly does not phrase it as other people thinking he's queer,-to use his word- but knowing, thus, perhaps inadvertently, certifying its truth. This is Ennis's great secret that he has been hiding, not least from himself, all his life.
For me, it boils down to the conversation Ennis and Jack have at their next-to-last (in the film) camping trip, where Ennis asks Jack if things between Jack and Lureen are "normal", and does she-Lureen-ever "suspect". Then he gets down to brass tacks and asks the question that has been eating at him for years, does he-Jack-ever get the feeling that other people "know". He gives that word "know" special emphasis. It implies others are aware of something that he has been trying to hide. In this context, I don't think he is merely referring to his ongoing affair with, or love for, Jack Twist, the details of which may have become public-via Alma- after his divorce. The question arises from a fear that is more central to his being and sense of who he is. It is so central and so frightening for him that he cannot bring himself to utter just exactly what it is others know about him, but he assumes-correctly-that Jack will understand his meaning. He interestingly does not phrase it as other people thinking he's queer,-to use his word- but knowing, thus, perhaps inadvertantly, certifying its truth. This is Ennis's great secret that he has been hiding, not least from himself, all his life.
As for Ennis wanting a family, it is here that I think Ennis displays one of his most striking character flaws. He may indeed want a family, but he is unwilling to commit himself to making the sacrifices necessary to provide for them adequately, and spends all of his free vacation time-according to the story-on fishing trips with Jack, never with Alma or his daughters. He compromises his 'career' in doing so. This doesn't speak well of a sincere desire to be a good husband and father, at least in the ways which would count in his rural Wyoming culture. On the other hand, having a wife and kids is the best insurance he can provide himself and the outside world that he is not, in fact, gay/queer. They inadvertantly help him prop up his denial system, to their detriment. I'm not saying he doesn't love his wife and daughters, in his way, but he fails-or is unable-to give them priorty in his life. So, that's my two cents worth.
For me, it boils down to the conversation Ennis and Jack have at their next-to-last (in the film) camping trip, where Ennis asks Jack if things between Jack and Lureen are "normal", and does she-Lureen-ever "suspect". Then he gets down to brass tacks and asks the question that has been eating at him for years, does he-Jack-ever get the feeling that other people "know". He gives that word "know" special emphasis. It implies others are aware of something that he has been trying to hide. In this context, I don't think he is merely referring to his ongoing affair with, or love for, Jack Twist, the details of which may have become public-via Alma- after his divorce. The question arises from a fear that is more central to his being and sense of who he is. It is so central and so frightening for him that he cannot bring himself to utter just exactly what it is others know about him, but he assumes-correctly-that Jack will understand his meaning. He interestingly does not phrase it as other people thinking he's queer,-to use his word- but knowing, thus, perhaps inadvertantly, certifying its truth. This is Ennis's great secret that he has been hiding, not least from himself, all his life.
As for Ennis wanting a family, it is here that I think Ennis displays one of his most striking character flaws. He may indeed want a family, but he is unwilling to commit himself to making the sacrifices necessary to provide for them adequately, and spends all of his free vacation time-according to the story-on fishing trips with Jack, never with Alma or his daughters. He compromises his 'career' in doing so. This doesn't speak well of a sincere desire to be a good husband and father, at least in the ways which would count in his rural Wyoming culture. On the other hand, having a wife and kids is the best insurance he can provide himself and the outside world that he is not, in fact, gay/queer. They inadvertantly help him prop up his denial system, to their detriment. I'm not saying he doesn't love his wife and daughters, in his way, but he fails-or is unable-to give them priorty in his life. So, that's my two cents worth.
This is so good, proulxfan. I always also thought that that scene where Ennis tells Jack he feels people "know" about him, is very telling. He can admit to himself and to Jack, but still doesn't have quite the words. Anyway, you said it very well, highlighting some important -- and so poignant -- things about the film, about Ennis: Jack's response; Ennis and family. Really a good interpretation.
Jeez -- he must feel SO strongly that he's queer, to feel he carries it like a sign around his neck that everybody can see, whether Jack's around or not. He is so tortured with this, that the facade is so necessary. So sad...
kathy
Don't forget, this scene comes not to long after his Thanksgiving fight with Alma. Ennis thought he fooled Alma all those years and he must have panicked when he found out she knew about him and Jack. And, he never knew that she had seen him kissing Jack at their reunion. I always thougt he asked Jack if everything was okay with Lureen because he figured if Alma could figure it out, Lureen must be able to also.
If he was or not gay he enjoy the Jack love
Interesting, tpe and WW. I do wonder though... If, as most on this thread (and others) have said, Jack is more obviously gay, then why would Ennis be the one to feel so insecure? I would say: Because Jack feels more secure, more at one with himself, even though he wouldn't come out and say he is gay. It is all about how you feel about yourself. And BBM sometimes gave me the impression that Ennis really hates himself, maybe least when he is with Jack. So, in a way, when he says in that heartbreaking last scene of theirs that it is Jack's fault, that he is like this - there is maybe truth in that somewhere, but I would say that it is only thanks to Jack that Ennis is a true human being, thinking, feeling, not taking everything for granted - he feels the horrible pain that life sometimes brings, but that is in no way Jack's fault. I just had a brainwave: What if is "Jack, I swear" meant that he realised this somehow; that all that was important in his life, all that was truly inner life, love, human development, had to do with Jack. That without him, he would have truly been "nothing".
I think, that when we see Ennis suffering it grows to be less important to know if he was gay or not. He was certainly suffering because he himself couldn't face that question (which he does verbalize in the short story in the motel scene), but the most important thing about him is his terrrible need to be loved and his incapacity to give himself fully, something that most of us have been confronted with at some point, gay or not.
monicita
That's the irony of Ennis's life, that he has never been loved, having lost his parents, been brought up grudgingly by his brother and sister having been traumatized by his father at an early age - then when he finds the love he needs so desperately it comes from the only person who has ever cared for and about him, but who, is, in Ennis's mind, exactly the wrong source of love. If he were gay and knew it, even at some deep level, i don't think loving Jack would have caused him such terrible conflict.
That's the irony of Ennis's life, that he has never been loved, having lost his parents, been brought up grudgingly by his brother and sister having been traumatized by his father at an early age - then when he finds the love he needs so desperately it comes from the only person who has ever cared for and about him, but who, is, in Ennis's mind, exactly the wrong source of love. If he were gay and knew it, even at some deep level, i don't think loving Jack would have caused him such terrible conflict.
This is perhaps the greatest "irony" in the story.
The desperate need to be loved, and then not allowing the one who loves him to love him.
kathy
That's the irony of Ennis's life, that he has never been loved, having lost his parents, been brought up grudgingly by his brother and sister having been traumatized by his father at an early age - then when he finds the love he needs so desperately it comes from the only person who has ever cared for and about him, but who, is, in Ennis's mind, exactly the wrong source of love. If he were gay and knew it, even at some deep level, i don't think loving Jack would have caused him such terrible conflict.
This is perhaps the greatest "irony" in the story.
The desperate need to be loved, and then not allowing the one who loves him to love him.
kathy
And he loved him in spite of himself.
Ennis is not black and white. He comes in shades of gray. He is the greatest ambiguity in this story.
:\'(
erica loves jack, thank for sharing with us your opinion.
I have said long ago that for me, BBM is Ennis's story -- a simple story that hides Ennis's complexity underneath. The ambiguity that is Ennis's character is perhaps the story's greatest strength. Outwardly simple, but so full of questions, doubts, hates, and loves.
erica loves jack, thank for sharing with us your opinion.
I have said long ago that for me, BBM is Ennis's story -- a simple story that hides Ennis's complexity underneath. The ambiguity that is Ennis's character is perhaps the story's greatest strength. Outwardly simple, but so full of questions, doubts, hates, and loves.
so so true. i agree.
erica loves jack, thank for sharing with us your opinion.
I have said long ago that for me, BBM is Ennis's story -- a simple story that hides Ennis's complexity underneath. The ambiguity that is Ennis's character is perhaps the story's greatest strength. Outwardly simple, but so full of questions, doubts, hates, and loves.
so so true. i agree.
And in light of what we have shared and discussed, it is poigniant to realize that Jack was Ennis's great and tragic flaw. More pointedly, it was through Jack that Ennis came to know (and to struggle with) what was deep inside of himself.
Without Jack, where would Ennis be? Who would Ennis be??
Without Jack, where would Ennis be? Who would Ennis be??
It is my opinion that without Jack, Ennis would have gone through life believing he was a happily married man. He would never have known true love.
Jack was Ennis's Achilles heel. without him Ennis would have married Alma and led the sort oflife she expected - he'd have had no reason not to take a regular job and might never have met anyone else, male or female, who attracted him. If Alma had eventually divorced him and married Monroe, Ennis might have met and married Cassie. All the feelings Jack aroused in him would have remained latent and Ennis would have remianed, outwardly at least, straight. I don't think he'd have been happy, exactly - his father had set him up for problems long before - but neithr do I think he'd have been as miserable as he ends up.
Without Jack, where would Ennis be? Who would Ennis be??
It is my opinion that without Jack, Ennis would have gone through life believing he was a happily married man. He would never have known true love.
I do feel the same way. Is finding love worth the tragedy? For some of us, yes. But so sad to contemplate...
Jack would have been ready and eager to move out of there with Ennis.... but like he said, Ennis didn't want it. He was in denial, scared, not wanting change..... I don't know for sure. Something like that.
Jack would have been ready and eager to move out of there with Ennis.... but like he said, Ennis didn't want it. He was in denial, scared, not wanting change..... I don't know for sure. Something like that.
Ennis was in denial about what? that is was gay? or at the very least bisexual? How can a guy who is having sex with another guy deny he is gay or bi? What does he do during the coupling, say to himself, "I am not gay. I am not gay. WOW this is great!!! I am not gay. I am not gay." :8
Yes! That is exactly what he did! Ennis was in total denial.
Ennis was scared. Sure he was scared. He didn't want to end up like Earl. What better reason to get the heck out of Wyoming and move to a place more gay friendly? And when I say gay friendly I don't mean it in the way it is meant today. There was no such place back then. But there were places where he and Jack could have lived and could have been left alone. Many people did it back then.
Ennis was not wanting to change. Now there is the key as far as I am concerned. What was there to change? In Ennis' mind he and Jack were two straight guys with families who would enjoy each other's companionship and sex 2 or 3 times a year. That is all. Nothing to change. Nothing that is until Ennis found the shirts and realized that Jack was in love with him and that he was also in love with Jack. Now, however, it is too late to change anything. Jack is dead and the man he loved will live alone the rest of his life with only the memories of his love for Jack and how it might have been if he just tried to fix it.
There doesn't have to be a tragedy. All they had to do is get away from the rednecks. Many, many gay couples lived happy lives in many places in the United States during that time period.
There doesn't have to be a tragedy. All they had to do is get away from the rednecks. Many, many gay couples lived happy lives in many places in the United States during that time period.
This is true.
I still wonder though (speculatively) if Ennis would have opened up even in a more tolerant place. His inner trauma seemed to have been his greatest enemy...
There doesn't have to be a tragedy. All they had to do is get away from the rednecks. Many, many gay couples lived happy lives in many places in the United States during that time period.
This is true.
I still wonder though (speculatively) if Ennis would have opened up even in a more tolerant place. His inner trauma seemed to have been his greatest enemy...
There doesn't have to be a tragedy. All they had to do is get away from the rednecks. Many, many gay couples lived happy lives in many places in the United States during that time period.
This is true.
I still wonder though (speculatively) if Ennis would have opened up even in a more tolerant place. His inner trauma seemed to have been his greatest enemy...
If Jack was there with him, I believe he would have. Jack was the one person Ennis was himself around. Jack was the only person he could really talk to. I'm sure they would've worked it out.
Beautiful post Erica.
I just so really wish Jack had said something to Ennis to help him understand it was O.K.
I'm all teary eyed again now :\'( :\'( :\'(
(I wrote a long, nice meaningful post and went to post it and what do ya know.... my session had timed out so I lost allllllllll of what I just wrote. AHHHH! I hate that. but I tried to rewrite it the best I could within my limited patients level.)
(I wrote a long, nice meaningful post and went to post it and what do ya know.... my session had timed out so I lost allllllllll of what I just wrote. AHHHH! I hate that. but I tried to rewrite it the best I could within my limited patients level.)
Erica, when that happens again, do the following:
When you get the message about the timeout, click your browser's BACK button. It will take you back to what you wrote.
Highlight everything in the write window, right click and then click COPY. That will save what you wrote to your Windows Clipboard.
Then click on your BACK button once more. Then click on your browser's RELOAD or REFRESH button.
Then click again on reply or quote as if you were replying for the first time. If you copied ALL that was in the write window, delete everything that is in the write window now.
Then PASTE what you copied into the write window.
That works for me every time.
(I wrote a long, nice meaningful post and went to post it and what do ya know.... my session had timed out so I lost allllllllll of what I just wrote. AHHHH! I hate that. but I tried to rewrite it the best I could within my limited patients level.)
Erica, when that happens again, do the following:
When you get the message about the timeout, click your browser's BACK button. It will take you back to what you wrote.
Highlight everything in the write window, right click and then click COPY. That will save what you wrote to your Windows Clipboard.
Then click on your BACK button once more. Then click on your browser's RELOAD or REFRESH button.
Then click again on reply or quote as if you were replying for the first time. If you copied ALL that was in the write window, delete everything that is in the write window now.
Then PASTE what you copied into the write window.
That works for me every time.
ok thanks! %)
(I wrote a long, nice meaningful post and went to post it and what do ya know.... my session had timed out so I lost allllllllll of what I just wrote. AHHHH! I hate that. but I tried to rewrite it the best I could within my limited patients level.)
Erica, when that happens again, do the following:
When you get the message about the timeout, click your browser's BACK button. It will take you back to what you wrote.
Highlight everything in the write window, right click and then click COPY. That will save what you wrote to your Windows Clipboard.
Then click on your BACK button once more. Then click on your browser's RELOAD or REFRESH button.
Then click again on reply or quote as if you were replying for the first time. If you copied ALL that was in the write window, delete everything that is in the write window now.
Then PASTE what you copied into the write window.
That works for me every time.
ok thanks! %)
Thank you for giving those tips Patriot1.
Erica, I hope you would be able to reconstruct some of your thoughts lost in that aborted post. :)
And in light of what we have shared and discussed, it is poigniant to realize that Jack was Ennis's great and tragic flaw. More pointedly, it was through Jack that Ennis came to know (and to struggle with) what was deep inside of himself.
Yes, yes, how fascinating. If Jack had never come into his life, Ennis would never have known those deepest parts of himself. Or, better the way you said it, Tom: that Jack was Ennis's flaw. Without Jack that flaw might never have surfaced at all. That would be an even more tragic story.
kathy
Jack would have been ready and eager to move out of there with Ennis.... but like he said, Ennis didn't want it. He was in denial, scared, not wanting change..... I don't know for sure. Something like that.
Ennis was in denial about what? that is was gay? or at the very least bisexual? How can a guy who is having sex with another guy deny he is gay or bi? What does he do during the coupling, say to himself, "I am not gay. I am not gay. WOW this is great!!! I am not gay. I am not gay." :8
Yes! That is exactly what he did! Ennis was in total denial.
Ennis was scared. Sure he was scared. He didn't want to end up like Earl. What better reason to get the heck out of Wyoming and move to a place more gay friendly? And when I say gay friendly I don't mean it in the way it is meant today. There was no such place back then. But there were places where he and Jack could have lived and could have been left alone. Many people did it back then.
Ennis was not wanting to change. Now there is the key as far as I am concerned. What was there to change? In Ennis' mind he and Jack were two straight guys with families who would enjoy each other's companionship and sex 2 or 3 times a year. That is all. Nothing to change. Nothing that is until Ennis found the shirts and realized that Jack was in love with him and that he was also in love with Jack. Now, however, it is too late to change anything. Jack is dead and the man he loved will live alone the rest of his life with only the memories of his love for Jack and how it might have been if he just tried to fix it.
Uhhhh. It's so sad to realize how much Ennis needed Jack to tell him how he was feeling was ok. No one else in Ennis' life would assure him... they were all against it. Just knowing that the one person you knew was there for you through it all... was dead, knowing you would never be able to hear him assuring you again, never be able to feel him, love him.... that's gotta be the toughest thing. I'm sure if he told his girls they would be understanding (at least in a matter of time) and stand by him, because they loved him. And even if he did find another man to love, it would never be the same as Jack's love. He would compare and always remember the way it was with Jack... so pure, real, true. Their 'force of nature' kind of love. It's depressing just typing it out. :(
(I wrote a long, nice meaningful post and went to post it and what do ya know.... my session had timed out so I lost allllllllll of what I just wrote. AHHHH! I hate that. but I tried to rewrite it the best I could within my limited patients level.)
Thanks for the enlightening post, WW! I have also read that there were many more female, black and Asian cowboys than is commonly assumed. So why shouldn't there have been a lot of gay ones as well? The whole theme of the Wild West attracted gay men (THE major writer about the American West in Germany was Karl May and his "Winnetou", he was as gay as can be...). I think the istory of the west was simply rewritten, as was the bible and may histories. Rewritten, so as to look more respectable, less anarchic. Ennis probably only ever heard or read the "bowdlerized" version.
monicita
As to if he was actually homosexually inclined from birth or not, I don't really see strong evidence in the movie or story of him being any more gay than the next boy. I would think most boys messed around with other boys a little (like the girls I knew of, with the girls), and then a bit older, thought about it at the least...and I can't imagine any other young man similar to Ennis being in that situation with Jack and not acting on it. I think the men here might answer this better, could know how it feels to be a young boy, not quickened by adolescence even yet, and starting to feel gay...
But I keep forgetting -- I am really not a good judge of this. I forget that really religious people were different, and sometimes it was so strong that even the rebelliousness of youth couldn't break through the religious conditioning. I grew up in the city, experimented with different religions or none, including Eastern thought and such that my dad had books about, dad the jazz piano player, etc., etc. So I just can't say what life was like for my peers who didn't live in big cities in comfortable enough conditions that allowed for some amount of freedom.
Anyway, I like talking about this subject (teacher don't like me -- I talk too much) but I don't require an answer for myself. I'm just glad Ennis found this kind of love for himself even considering the outcome...
kathy
Interesting thoughts, kathy. I agree about the aspect of religious conditioning, and how it can retard innate feelings and sexual identity.
As to Ennis not being able to act in any other way in such a situation, I am a bit less sure. As I mentioned in another thread, love and even sex may not happen between two such people (gay or straight), although the possibility that sex might occur is certainly higher. Of course, a lot of straight men may have had homosexual relationships when younger, even if these did not have an effect on their overall sexual orientation. Not surprisingly, the same can be said with many homosexual men who have had heterosexual relationships in thier younger days: these experiences in no way affected their innate sexual preferences.
It is certainly not straightforward...
It most certainly is not straightforward, so to speak. :*( I guess that's what keeps us discussing all of this. The whole thing -- our inner selves, our outer selves, our feelings, BBM, our feelings about BBM -- is so rich.
I didn't really mean that Ennis would not be able to act in any other way in such a situation. I just meant that it seems likely the same thing might have happened to any other young man somewhat similar to Ennis, up there for the summer with Jack or a young man similar to Jack. Seems to me. Maybe not, though -- maybe the two men up there could be really fixed in their heterosexuality. Jack and Ennis were more flexible. And anyway, it's about more than sex between them in any event. Or this is going around in circles, just like you said -- not straightforward!
kathy
Yes, and into this equation you can alsio add isolation - what happens on Brokeback is evidently going to remain a secret, and as long as you're in no dannger of exposure you might be more inclined to do things you would, in other circumstances, not even consider.
Annie Proulx says he's gay, not bisexual. He's gay
I've saw it the movie one time after another and i really think he was gay from the beginning, just look his face when meet jack the way he look him ::)
In any case, I don't think Ennis is self-aware enough to look into himself and analyze what he is, specially when he lives in a time and place where the concept of gay as we use it is unfamiliar/unknown.
I think that you all have a good point here, but in my opinion, I think that at the beginning Ennis was very lonely ,then he just fell completely in love with Jack,Yes, I agree. The conflict is at the heart of the story.Here is a related question: if Ennis is gay, does it -- in a way -- make him less or more interesting to you?TPE, for me, if iEnnis is gay, is also a more interesting story. I cannot imagine the degree of inner pain and struggle he must have endured (BBM shows some).
For me, it is certainly more interesting if Ennis is indeed gay. His conflicting tendencies are cast into sharper focus.
My heart aches for Ennis :'(
I think that you all have a good point here, but in my opinion, I think that at the beginning Ennis was very lonely ,then he just fell completely in love with Jack,
the only human being that gave him the warmth he so desperately seeked.
I think that you all have a good point here, but in my opinion, I think that at the beginning Ennis was very lonely ,then he just fell completely in love with Jack,
the only human being that gave him the warmth he so desperately seeked.
Who can know the twists of the human heart, no? When it is lonely, it will respond deeply to any hint of kindness. After all, is not love a response to loneliness?
Whether or not he was gay, we know that he responded to love.
I always like your imput, tpe. Very well said. It comes to a piont where it doesn't matter what his sexuality is. We know who he really love at the end and I think that love is whats important.
AS I've said before, i think in the end no matter how you see yourself, if you fall in lovei it's with an individual and at that moment it doesn't matter if the one you love is straight, gay, black, white or a Martian. Ennis loves Jack and its Jack's individuality, the Jackness of Jack if you like, that he loves.
Don't think any other factors really matter when the lightning strikes.
Thank you, Greenfrog. I believe it - I think the "Love is a force of nature" line they used to publiciize the movie is true. Don't think any other factors really matter when the lightning strikes.
DEpends what he means by "like this". He's talking about his financial, social, emotional situation as much as the sexual ambiguities, i think. He follows it with "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" and this is related to his desperation to cling to his current job, his inability to see Jack when he wants to, the fact that he's constatly given up jobs to be with Jack and is therefore badly off, to the fact that Jack with his financial advantages doesn't seem to understand Ennis's poverty or why and how it's come about.
I don't think Ennis is saying that Jack made him gay, so to speak, and I don;t think he ever thinks he is gay.
DEpends what he means by "like this". He's talking about his financial, social, emotional situation as much as the sexual ambiguities, i think. He follows it with "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" and this is related to his desperation to cling to his current job, his inability to see Jack when he wants to, the fact that he's constatly given up jobs to be with Jack and is therefore badly off, to the fact that Jack with his financial advantages doesn't seem to understand Ennis's poverty or why and how it's come about.
I don't think Ennis is saying that Jack made him gay, so to speak, and I don;t think he ever thinks he is gay.
I think that's what Ennis means by that, also. Not about being queer, but about his nowhere situation. However, he can't really blame Jack, because Jack offered him something else, a sweet life together. It's playing by Ennis's rules that keeps Ennis in the situation he is in.
kathy
DEpends what he means by "like this". He's talking about his financial, social, emotional situation as much as the sexual ambiguities, i think. He follows it with "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" and this is related to his desperation to cling to his current job, his inability to see Jack when he wants to, the fact that he's constatly given up jobs to be with Jack and is therefore badly off, to the fact that Jack with his financial advantages doesn't seem to understand Ennis's poverty or why and how it's come about.
I don't think Ennis is saying that Jack made him gay, so to speak, and I don;t think he ever thinks he is gay.
I think that's what Ennis means by that, also. Not about being queer, but about his nowhere situation. However, he can't really blame Jack, because Jack offered him something else, a sweet life together. It's playing by Ennis's rules that keeps Ennis in the situation he is in.
kathy
I agree. But I should also like to stress that I think Ennis himself knew that the main conflict was in himself, and was not something created by Jack. Jack's presence in his life forced Ennis to confront his innermost feelings, and the confrontation caused him a great deal of anguish.
kathy, I do think you have made an important observation here: the relationship between Jack and Ennis was dynamic rather than static. It is easy to think that their relationship did not change that much in the almost 20 years of knowing each other, until we call to mind the important shifts and movements in the interveneing years. At the risk of generalization, I would say that Jack's view on his own sexuality was a journey of gradual acknowledgement and openess, whereas Ennis's traced an arc from caution to openess, and final introversion. It can be argued that their sexual development traced similar paths. But what is important to note that in his lonely end, Ennis did come to a realization of his true and deep love for Jack. If this implied gayness, then so be it. But if it meant something that went beyond a black and white question of gayness, then we should also be prepared to say that love, like life itself, is can be as dynamic as it can be constant. Perhaps in the end, Ennis's love was more spiritual rather than physical, and we know that on a spiritual plane, distinctions on gender are secondary.
I do think in the end, Ennis did realize that gender and even death did not stop him from loving Jack. In a sense, he did sort of transcend himself and his own fears, even though he realized that it was too late to bring that love to fulfillment.
As for love after Jack died, hard to say. His unspoken "vow" in the end would seem to indicate that he will be faithful to Jack forever. Death, sex, and gender no longer mattered.
Unless he's the old man in the bar that Annie P. was watching.
kathy
Unless he's the old man in the bar that Annie P. was watching.
kathy
No, that can't be Ennis, Kathy, because that man is me. :)
I can't help thinking there must be many people like the one Anni P said inspired the story, and not all of them gay. There is so much loneliness in the world.
Unless he's the old man in the bar that Annie P. was watching.
kathy
No, that can't be Ennis, Kathy, because that man is me. :)
LOL!
Well, then, I'm the old lady in the bar watching the old man who's watching the young men...
kathy
I would like to believe that once Ennis found the shirts and throught them realized that Jack was in love with him and he was in love with Jack and that he was, in fact, queer, that Ennis tried to find someone else to love. The thought of him being old and alone tears my heart out. Waiting for the day to come when someone will hold you and say they like you and need you in their life is a very painful existance. Too painful for our Ennis who needs to be loved.
Everyone needs to be loved' it's finding the one who's The One that's the problem.
I do think in the end, Ennis did realize that gender and even death did not stop him from loving Jack. In a sense, he did sort of transcend himself and his own fears, even though he realized that it was too late to bring that love to fulfillment.
As for love after Jack died, hard to say. His unspoken "vow" in the end would seem to indicate that he will be faithful to Jack forever. Death, sex, and gender no longer mattered.
Everyone needs to be loved' it's finding the one who's The One that's the problem.
Amen. But I'd settle for just being liked.
Everyone needs to be loved' it's finding the one who's The One that's the problem.
Amen. But I'd settle for just being liked.
*Hugs* :^^)
%)
AS I've said before, i think in the end no matter how you see yourself, if you fall in lovei it's with an individual and at that moment it doesn't matter if the one you love is straight, gay, black, white or a Martian. Ennis loves Jack and its Jack's individuality, the Jackness of Jack if you like, that he loves.Hello Welshwitch...yes I agree...beautiful post Welshwitch, When you fall in love it does'nt matter to know who is (he or she) really, but to become apparent to the other. But the most important is to love and to be loved :)
My dear tpe,
I would put it the other way round: It all matters in the end. Remember the short story: There was still something akin to "sex" in Ennis's dreams sometimes. And death mattered too, because he cried in his sleep: I think the last lines of the short story go something like: "Sometimes the sheets were wet, sometimes the pillow". There you have it, in my opinion: It mattered to Ennis, but it mattered in a way he would never have dared acknowledge if Jack had still been alive. What I love about Annie Proulx is that she manages to transcend the everyday, humdrum lives of her characters, while still remaining very much "on the ground", so to speak. Sex matters, death matters, but there is also something beyond that...
monicita
As they say at Oxbridge, first define your terms. What do you mean by "gay"?
For my money, Jack is, or would be, Ennis isn't. But what do I know about it?
I'm going to say that Ennis was at least bisexual. Even after Jack was physically absent from his life, he fantasized about him and "wrang it out" 100 times thinking about Jack. Yes, we didn't see Ennis looking or thinking about other men, but Ennis was a much more faithful guy than Jack (okay, maybe not by Alma). Also, maybe Ennis wouldn't allow himself to think about other men so he could convince himself he wasn't queer. Just thinking out loud.
I also see Ennis as a bisexual character.
I see brokeback mountain as a bisexual film and not a "gay" film. Most people in America see sexuality in black and white binary terms (gay/het) when there are many shades of grey.
Anyway there are many different types of bisexuals:
you like men AND women sexually AND romantically
you like men sexually only; you like women sexually and romantically
you like women sexually only; you like men sexually and romantically
Also, film scholars, film critics/reviewers, and queer theorist scholars have written about how this is a bisexual film and that the character of Ennis is a bisexual man. Even wikipedia has this in the entry for the film and the character of Ennis.
Most often the film was referred to in the media as the "gay cowboy movie," however, a number of reviewers stated Jack and Ennis were bisexual. Sex researcher Fritz Klein also asserted his opinion that the movie was "a nice film with two main characters who were bisexual," and further analyzed that Jack is more "toward the gay side of bisexuality" and Ennis is "a bit more toward the straight side of being bisexual." In an article in American Sexuality Magazine, Amy Andre critiqued the media's avoidance of the use of the term bisexual in association with Brokeback Mountain:
"Brokeback Mountain is not a movie about gay people, and there are no gay people in it. There. I said it. Despite what you may have read in the many reviews that have come out about this new cowboy feature film, Brokeback Mountain is a bisexual picture. Why can't film reviewers say the word 'bisexual' when they see lead characters with sexual and romantic relationships with both men and women? I am unaware of a single review of Brokeback calling the leads what they are – a sad statement on the invisibility of bisexual experience and the level of biphobia in both the mainstream and gay media."-http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/MagArticle.cfm?Article=554
"The film is so discreet and heartfelt in its depiction of an affair between two bisexual cowboys that it may play, like "Philadelphia," to adult audiences regardless of ideological disposition."-http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_412553.html
Certainly, Lee's film has enjoyed both curiosity and novelty value in being known as the "gay cowboy movie." Never mind that its protagonists are actually bisexual sheep herders. The vernacular tagline proved so effective that you can still practically hear Universal Pictures' advertising department breathing a collective sigh of relief at not having to sell America on "that bi shepherds flick."-http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A27050
...
Most often the film was referred to in the media as the "gay cowboy movie," however, a number of reviewers stated Jack and Ennis were bisexual. Sex researcher Fritz Klein also asserted his opinion that the movie was "a nice film with two main characters who were bisexual," and further analyzed that Jack is more "toward the gay side of bisexuality" and Ennis is "a bit more toward the straight side of being bisexual." In an article in American Sexuality Magazine, Amy Andre critiqued the media's avoidance of the use of the term bisexual in association with Brokeback Mountain:
"Brokeback Mountain is not a movie about gay people, and there are no gay people in it. There. I said it. Despite what you may have read in the many reviews that have come out about this new cowboy feature film, Brokeback Mountain is a bisexual picture. Why can't film reviewers say the word 'bisexual' when they see lead characters with sexual and romantic relationships with both men and women? I am unaware of a single review of Brokeback calling the leads what they are – a sad statement on the invisibility of bisexual experience and the level of biphobia in both the mainstream and gay media."-http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/MagArticle.cfm?Article=554
"The film is so discreet and heartfelt in its depiction of an affair between two bisexual cowboys that it may play, like "Philadelphia," to adult audiences regardless of ideological disposition."-http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_412553.html
Certainly, Lee's film has enjoyed both curiosity and novelty value in being known as the "gay cowboy movie." Never mind that its protagonists are actually bisexual sheep herders. The vernacular tagline proved so effective that you can still practically hear Universal Pictures' advertising department breathing a collective sigh of relief at not having to sell America on "that bi shepherds flick."-http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A27050
Some people don't care to say things are one way or the other.
kathy
Men behind bars have been known to engage in sexual encounters with each other, but how many could you get to admit they are gay.? Not many. And how many continue to do so after release? I know there have been studies done on this but I don't know the results of them.
Greetings, aintfoolin. :c)
Thank you for your interesting thoughts.
I wanted to add that I have some difficulty with the idea of "exploring" one's sexual orientation, as tpe posted just recently ; that is only because in my personal experience, I have never encountered anyone who could distance him/herself from his/her sexual orientation. Practically every male homosexual I have ever known has been confronted with his homosexuality as by something he wanted to fight against but could never win. There was no choice in the matter. Some could get married to a woman and have children, but they were living in utter misery and concealing it every day.
Getting back to Ennis, he loved only Jack ; he didn't want other men. I just call it Eternal Love :-[
While Ennis participated in an homosexual act with Jack ( many times), we have no indication that he ever did so with any other man, or even remotely desired any other man. Did Ennis think of himself as gay? I think not. He even refused to admit to himself or to Jack that he loved Jack. I don't think he realized he really did love him until Jack was dead. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Ennis was not gay, in his mind, and that's all that's really important. If you want to say everyone who has willingly engaged in gay activities is gay, then he is gay. If, however, your definition of gay is a bit more compressed, perhaps he wasn't.
Personally, I don't think he was gay. He was in a situation, a time, a place, and with Jack, who was gay, and things happened. He liked Jack, his friend, and eventually even loved him - in everyway possible. I don't think sex was nearly as important to Ennis as it was to Jack; consequently, Ennis never had to make too many choices in sex partner. When he was married, it was Alma --- and Jack. After the divorce, it was ---- Jack. (Cassie came into the equation, but never seriously -- it was just Jack.) He was constant with the one he really lovved ---- Jack. So, whether he was hetero or homo fades in importance to me. He was Jack's.
Ennis is such an enigma. Even up to now, I can't make my mind about him... But I do know that he loved Jack -- most deeply.
Jack on the other hand is a different story. If by chance ( BIG IF..) I could've asked Jack if he was born gay I'm inclined to believe he would say yes. I think he probably knew from childhood that he was. Or he'd state that he has felt this way ever sense he could remember, as gay friends I've met through the years have stated. But some people also believe after watching the film that Jack "turned" Ennis gay. This is a mistake in thinking I believe. Ignorance?I tend to believe the tag line that Love is a force of nature. When ya know, ya know. I think I heard Ang Lee state once that "To themselves and to the SUPRISE of the audience, they fell in love" I believe it was a suprise to them too. A nice one.
Then this opens up the complex question of : Are gays born gay?/Or can a person "turn" gay as many of my freinds and relatives believe. Ennis is indeed a complicated piece of work in a sense that he is hard to figure. To understand where he stands as far as his sexuality goes. My feeling is that his feelings were repressed deep inside. I don't think he expected to fall in love with Jack but by the time SNIT happened, he was pretty sure that he had had feelins that he could'nt control.The scene where he's sick and crying , punching the wall in frustration at the inability to come to terms or express to Jack what he really wanted I think he knew good and well that it was wrong to let Jack go.By the time of the reunion after four long years I feel that he had come to the full realization that this is what he really wanted.that his feelins for Alma paled in comparison to those he had for Jack though I think he went through a very complex struggle to get to that point. Finally he confesses that " there aint no reins on this one" saying that he could'nt help himself if he tried. He was hooked.Maybe some of the gay guys on the thread could shed some light on this? Thanks.
Love is a 2-way street. You can't make headway without the cooperation of the other. If they say that Jack made Ennis gay, then I would say that Ennis let him. There is a lot to be said about that.
Hmmm... Interesting question. I do believe that there are people who are exclusively turned on by their own gender and then there are those who are turned on by the opposite gender. Of course, you then have those who lie somewhere in between to varying degrees. I think both Ennis & Jack are somewhere in between. You have to have some physical attraction to the opposite sex to be able to have sex with them, regardless of how young or horny you are. Of course societal pressures tend to tweak these tendencies, and if Ennis & Jack were born in an era of permissiveness, they may very well have tended more towards the gay side of the scale. It defies logic to think that being gay is strictly a choice as religious zealots and conservatives allege. It's obvious to me that they sorely lack the ability to empathize - they are unable to think logically and put themselves in the position of choosing a "lifestyle" fraught with societal scorn and heartache; to see that no one in their right minds would choose that option... ^*()
...
I have one other question I'd like to put out there and it concerns the fact that many say that Ennis was ONLY attracted to Jack. Was it possible that Ennis could have at least found other men attactive? Not necessarily intending to act on on any of it of course but at least LOOKED. I know there's no evidence in the movie to sustain this but in my mind only, he had to compare...... (a roving eye?) as Jack certainly did. We all do at some point when we see a strikingly attractive person right? I mean he was human. I know I'm probably opening up a can of worms here. He's such a complex character whom I enjoy dissecting Ledger gave heart to this tortured soul. Excellent.
Personally, I don't believe that one has to be physically attracted to the oppisite sex to have sex with them. I know that many give in to family and social pressures to marry and have children -- and that sex in this context was a necessary "evil". THis is true most especially in old Asian cultures, where the need to have heirs is imperative. I certainly know of a number of my friends who started out married and admitted that they were able to perform for years without being physically attracted to their partners.
As to the second question, I do agree that it is hard to say withn certainly that Ennis was only attracted to Jack. The story does not tell us of anybody else, but that does not mean that this omission proves the said proposition. The most we can say is that throughout Jack's life (and most likely beyond), Ennis remained faithful to Jack -- insofar as relationships with other men were concerned. Faithfulness does not rule out desire, as all of us know.
So right, Thomas. This is probably, throughout history and in all cultures, as often the case as it is not the case, that people married and had sex to carry on the line, while their "preferences" lay elsewhere. And were acted upon, too -- just not openly.
kathy
Greetings, aintfoolin. :c)
Thank you for your interesting thoughts.
I wanted to add that I have some difficulty with the idea of "exploring" one's sexual orientation, as tpe posted just recently ; that is only because in my personal experience, I have never encountered anyone who could distance him/herself from his/her sexual orientation. Practically every male homosexual I have ever known has been confronted with his homosexuality as by something he wanted to fight against but could never win. There was no choice in the matter. Some could get married to a woman and have children, but they were living in utter misery and concealing it every day.
Getting back to Ennis, he loved only Jack ; he didn't want other men. I just call it Eternal Love :-[
Hi Stephan,
I have actually met a few people who could and did "distance themselves" from their sexual orientation, as you put it. Especially women, who relatively late in life make a choice to become lesbians, because they can't stand men any more, because they decide that they want a life only with women. For most of them, it isn't so much about sex, but much more about the whole "male" thing. Some of them don't even have a lot of sex with women: they just opt for this totally different life. And then there are people like me: I have always been totally entranced by gay sex. I've always wanted to be a gay man (since I was about 12 or 13, when the concept began to dawn on me). So what exactly is sexual orientation for somebody like me? In the end, I like your last line best: Eternal Love doesn't ask for sexual orientation, does it?
monicita
Very much agreed. I think it's the mark of a great story and storyteller that they are able to instill a myriad of potential possibilities into a very vivid story so that the listeners (or watchers) can see what they want and make the story very real to each. They're all "right" and all see a story that is true to their own heart. IMHO this is what makes the BBM saga so remakable, not only did the SS do this but also the movie to an almost perfect degree. It could have been screwed up (lessened) so easily but fate did not allow it.
It is the complexity of Ennis's sexual identity that is one of the crowning glories of this story. However we choose to view it, we are all in agreement that it makes us go back to our own identity and look deeper into what makes us what we are.
...
It is the complexity of Ennis's sexual identity that is one of the crowning glories of this story. However we choose to view it, we are all in agreement that it makes us go back to our own identity and look deeper into what makes us what we are.
Very much agreed. I think it's the mark of a great story and storyteller that they are able to instill a myriad of potential possibilities into a very vivid story so that the listeners (or watchers) can see what they want and make the story very real to each. They're all "right" and all see a story that is true to their own heart. IMHO this is what makes the BBM saga so remakable, not only did the SS do this but also the movie to an almost perfect degree. It could have been screwed up (lessened) so easily but fate did not allow it.
Very much agreed. I think it's the mark of a great story and storyteller that they are able to instill a myriad of potential possibilities into a very vivid story so that the listeners (or watchers) can see what they want and make the story very real to each. They're all "right" and all see a story that is true to their own heart. IMHO this is what makes the BBM saga so remakable, not only did the SS do this but also the movie to an almost perfect degree. It could have been screwed up (lessened) so easily but fate did not allow it.
Isn't that one of the marks of a great classic, that it's there yet somehow transparent, subsuming you and letting you merge with it. Coleridge said, "I am Hamlet," and that's how closely you can identify with a classic character. We identify with Jack and Ennis because we have a part of their characters within us.
Hi Stephan,
I have actually met a few people who could and did "distance themselves" from their sexual orientation, as you put it. Especially women, who relatively late in life make a choice to become lesbians, because they can't stand men any more, because they decide that they want a life only with women. For most of them, it isn't so much about sex, but much more about the whole "male" thing. Some of them don't even have a lot of sex with women: they just opt for this totally different life. And then there are people like me: I have always been totally entranced by gay sex. I've always wanted to be a gay man (since I was about 12 or 13, when the concept began to dawn on me). So what exactly is sexual orientation for somebody like me? In the end, I like your last line best: Eternal Love doesn't ask for sexual orientation, does it?
monicita
I can relate,being raised in a strict religious home. The guilt that Ennis felt is very hard to overcome. Although I still maintain my beleifs on a modified level, The "fire and brimestone" crowd can do harm as well as good in my opinion. He needed to know that he would'nt "burn in hell" for loving Jack.
(...)The law is the law but love knows no bounds.
A new setting would'nt have hurt. It was'nt till the end when they were older that Jack finally forced Ennis to face his fears and take responsibility , (last meeting) that they had any chance of livin that "sweet life" in peace. I personally feel they would have..... had Jack lived.This is MHO.
(...) Some say "actions speak louder than words " and Jack went above and beyond with his actions , but sometimes nothing replaces good old fahioned plain spokeness IMO in a situation such as this.. Verbal communication (he had the gift) , I beleive was the key all along. (...)
(...) but as far a love is concerned, jack was the one who had his heart.
I agree with you both. The truth has been spoken in both cases. I beleive that Ennis had the capacity to be attracted to both sexes. If Jack, with his courageous personality had not drawn Ennis's deeply repressed inner feelings about himself out, he would never have engaged in gay activities. It took Jack to rock Ennis's world and turn it upside down forcing him to discover that Alma and relationships with wommen were not all their was to his sexuality. To his suprise mind you he found a another world of loving existed out there. He embraced it with Jack's help and fell deeply in love with him. 8)
(...)
In a deep way, both love and desire must be connected to define a sexual identity. For me, Jack was the only one where both desire and the heart were one in Ennis. For all of us who have been blessed by a similar experience, we know in a vague sense that such a love transcends classification: it becomes neither gay nore straight -- it becomes wholly a human love.
As you know, Tom, I have rather serious misgivings with the notion of "identity", and sexual identity in particular. I wholly agree with your last sentence. However, the operation that consists in defining an identity is, imho, is a case of the intellect capitulating, of confusing a thing with the representation of that thing.
Although I am spontaneously aroused sexually only by men, whenever someone represents me as gay, then I fear that (s)he has started to see me as somebody different from the real me. (Am I making sense ?)
Thanks for your post, Koka ! :^^)
I believe that I need to clarify : I used the expression "I fear" but not literally. (In French, "je crains que" is not necessarily about being afraid.) To be more exact, I should say "I regret" or "I have the feeling unfortunately, that"...
But otherwise, yes. Identities are often about tags. Labels don't tell all !
I see....but then again, such 'feelings' are yet again manifestations of fear ( at least I think ), one way or the other. the moment you stop thinking 'oh god, is she/he going to think that I'm this or that just because I'm gay? is she/he going to judge and lable me?' is the moment when you're going to admit to yourself that the real problem is the fear that you feel, the fear of rejection in a way (...)
Thanks Stephan and koka for the wonderful exchange!
I had mentioned before that Idon't mind the label "gay" as I treat it as working definition for a lot of things that may describe me. To assume that it defines me precisely is not at all realistic, of course. And by definition, a "definition" must limit and constrain, as much as it clarifies and distinguishes.
As was mentioned, so long as the term "gay" is understood as a working definition of something infinitely more complex, things are acceptable to me. Terms are, after all, paradigms for greater or deeper realities that we all take for granted as inherently understood. Tjings like "life", "love", "matter", and "essence" or "God". No single term encloses the reality it seeks to define. Such is the case with Ennis's "sexuality" and "sexual identity".
As was mentioned, so long as the term "gay" is understood as a working definition of something infinitely more complex, things are acceptable to me. Terms are, after all, paradigms for greater or deeper realities that we all take for granted as inherently understood. Tjings like "life", "love", "matter", and "essence" or "God". No single term encloses the reality it seeks to define. Such is the case with Ennis's "sexuality" and "sexual identity".
As was mentioned, so long as the term "gay" is understood as a working definition of something infinitely more complex, things are acceptable to me. Terms are, after all, paradigms for greater or deeper realities that we all take for granted as inherently understood. Tjings like "life", "love", "matter", and "essence" or "God". No single term encloses the reality it seeks to define. Such is the case with Ennis's "sexuality" and "sexual identity".
I can live with that, in fact I have no choice ! The difficulty is that, in practise, once you get labelled, it is next to imossible to get un-labelled. The injustice is done and might never be undone.
yes, but what I'm talking about here is that one needs to get 'pass' the fear of getting labelled and say to oneself: 'okay, people label me, it's injust but- so what!!? (...)
yes, but what I'm talking about here is that one needs to get 'pass' the fear of getting labelled and say to oneself: 'okay, people label me, it's injust but- so what!!? (...)
This is where I'm different from you and Tom, I suppose. I think it matters when there is injustice committed. I support not allowing people to continue committing injustice as if it was a human right ; I support educating people to STOP injustice before it happens. You cannot get past the fear of being labelled if you are murdered, like the man in BBM that Ennis saw when he was a young boy.
I'll say now that Jacks infielity was just part of being human. Watching this film now is a lot different to me after I've had a chance to get past all the initial fascination and get " deeper" into the minds of the characters I have come to the conclusion that there was no fault or blame to be placed on either of these men This had to do with two people who fell in love.,happens to be two men. What they did is deal honestly with how they had to hide their love,from a, closed minded society. Made as humanly as possible, it is a great love story so many can relate to. The story, as well as the characters themselves.Thanks
God, I love what both of you just said. And monicita, so true, about the discussions on some of these threads having the effect of bringing out things in us -- and even better, sharing those things with others -- that we may not have been in touch with before. It is absolutely fascinating. The question really isn't "Was Ennis gay?" although that is a fascinating question. But that question was left open by our very wise and artistic movie makers. The questions are instead: How do we define ourselves? What is the nature of definition? What does it mean to discern things about someone else based on clues we see, which clues are colored by our own perceptions? Etc., etc. Not to turn this into some intellectual or philosophical discussion, but those philosophical elements are at root of what we're trying to discern and express to each other. And in the expressing, learn and grow, and love also. Love each other for being another of those rays of light off the prism. Moni, I love that image, BBM and you with the prism in your hand...
kathy
I love this film.
I love this film.
I love this film.
The question about whether the boys were "gay" is ENORMOUSLY important. It gets at one of the most important questions our culture is grappling with: are people who fall in love with others of the same gender essentially different (a different class), or simply humans expressing love and desire in a form less common. The implications of how the question is answered are profound.
I've written some thoughts (http://www.ratdiary.com/?p=55) on this issue that may be interesting, or unwelcome; but they are offered sincerely. I'd be interested in hearing what people think.
Personally, I don't think they were gay. They were just two men in love... ;)
The question about whether the boys were "gay" is ENORMOUSLY important. It gets at one of the most important questions our culture is grappling with: are people who fall in love with others of the same gender essentially different (a different class), or simply humans expressing love and desire in a form less common. The implications of how the question is answered are profound.
I've written some thoughts (http://www.ratdiary.com/?p=55) on this issue that may be interesting, or unwelcome; but they are offered sincerely. I'd be interested in hearing what people think.
Personally, I don't think they were gay. They were just two men in love... ;)
>>>>.......A woman simply is, but a man must become. Masculinity is risky and elusive. It is achieved by a revolt from woman, and it is confirmed only by other men. . . ..
-- Camille Paglia......<<<<<
When reading, it helps to keep this definition in mind to the word DESIRE: ...the feeling that accompanies an unsatisfied state
In my opinion,Ennis was never gay,or,as he pointed out to Jack..."queer". During ANY point of the film was Ennis EVER gay. THAT'S the beauty of Brokeback Mountain.THAT"S what gives the films now immortal words " Love is a Force of Nature." its impact.
THAT'S the power of love.
Jack and Ennis came together under certain favorable conditions or ,depending on your viewpoint ,unfavorable conditions..Whatever your viewpoint, they came together having within themselves something the other desired desperately. Ennis had a desire to feel appreciated,looked up to and respected.Jack had a desire for a strong authoritative male figure to validate his own masculinity. Which is pretty much the basic motivation of rodeo riders. To prove their masculinity and have it validated by other men.
Anyway,Ennis and Jack arrived together with an inate desire as every normal human being. A desire for physical intimacy.Up to this point,Ennnis had never felt physical intimacy with another human being.Not even from the woman to whom he was engaged.So I imagine it was an extremely powerful urge having been pent up all those years.I could be wrong but I also imagine the scene between Alma and Ennis sled-riding happened on occasion prior to the couples marriage, soooo , all that physical contact must have sent Ennis urges to the stratophere if Alma hadn't satisfied those needs,seal an intimate bond with Ennis before Jack did.Think hard about that sledding scene.Did the affection between Alma and Ennis seem genuine? Or did it seem a somewhat half-hearted attepmt by Ennis to cover up a supposingly repressed homosexual identity.
How about the bedroom scene after Ennis arrives home and comforts to sleep Jenny and Alma Jr. Was Ennis genuinely seduced by Alma or did he succumb reluctantly?We also know Ennis was " Putting the blocks " to Cassie. I believe he chose to because he was genuinely charmed by Cassie's beauty and personality.
Regarding Jack. His desires were evident to Ennis because Jack wore his heart on his sleeve.Or more appropriately,on his face,as was also evident to the rodeo clown having picked up Jacks vibes.Although the rodeo clown correctly perceieved it as sexual,Jack simply wanted the male approval and validation which had been so elusive to him.The same male approval and validation the rodeo clown fully enjoyed, as witnessed by the large group of male peers he aproached at the pool table.
I'm sure Jack tried his best to win approval through typical manly pursuits but none were effective.Jacks Dad surely never gave him support.Never passed on to his son his succesful rodeo riding secrets."Never came to see him ride." Fact is, according to Annies short story his father actually urinated on him. All Jacks attepmts seemed to fall short of his goal due to his less than satisfactory masculine adeptness.
Jack more then likely felt his line of approach was the only option remaining to him to have his desires fullfilled . After all,it worked extremely well on at least one occasion we know of,with Ennis at Brokeback. Exceeded his wildest dreams even.
When Ennis and Jack met,Ennis already had an established relationship with a woman.Jack on the other hand hadn't.When Ennis mentioned his engagement to Alma,to Jack, Jack immediately dismissed his comment by not elaborating on it further.Didn't really want to acknowledege it.
Anyway,As most men do,Ennis and Jack continued to bond through time spent working with each other.Under these conditions with some time spent together,a sip or two of spirits ,Jack's coaxing Ennis to open up and talk about himself ,enabled a guarded Ennis to slowly let his defense mechnism down.Which allowed Jack to make a connection and eliminate Ennis startle point all together.All these conditions made for a very powerfull seductive force.The seclusion and privacy of the mountains eliminated the risk factor.Then...K-A-P-O-W !!!!!!! They met each others needs in a very unconventional manner.Even worst.One that was taboo.
All that time spent together lovin' and workin' caused them to create a still stronger bond.An intimate bond. A bond shared in the same manner as husband and wife where the two became as one. This In spite of Ennis true heterosexual nature.Which Ennis never denounced nor gave any indication existed otherwise in manner,word or deed.He believed himself heterosexual to the end. Jack was simply very special buddy whom he loved dearly....physically.....powerfully.So powerfully the love could never be replicated.Not with a man.Not with a woman. Poor Ennis was left in limbo and in a crisis unfortunately.
Still,its a testament to how powerful a force love actually is.
hmmm... isnt it up to the writer to decide if he was gay or not?
All that time spent together lovin' and workin' caused them to create a still stronger bond.An intimate bond. A bond shared in the same manner as husband and wife where the two became as one. This In spite of Ennis true heterosexual nature.Which Ennis never denounced nor gave any indication existed otherwise in manner,word or deed.He believed himself heterosexual to the end. Jack was simply very special buddy whom he loved dearly....physically.....powerfully.So powerfully the love could never be replicated.Not with a man.Not with a woman. Poor Ennis was left in limbo and in a crisis unfortunately.
Still,its a testament to how powerful a force love actually is.
Works of fiction are all the more richer when they establish a life of their own, separate from the original author's thoughts and intentions. It hints at the broader universality of the subject matter.
hmmm... isnt it up to the writer to decide if he was gay or not?
Greetings manhattangirl !!
Feel free to chime in anytime.Everyone's "two cents" here is equal at the exchange rate. I have just one question. Is it conceievable to you a heterosexual could fall in love and be attracted a person of the same sex strongly enough to cause some confusion and anxiety?
my two cents for what its worth guys:
Ennis was in limbo before Jack's death. Ennis's "true heterosexual nature" ? Ennis tried to gain a "a true heterosexual nature" and it was only for survival, to be safe, but it always left him wanting, isolated, alone, and confused, battling his need to be what the world think he should be, and his need for Jack.
Alma and Cassie, though they love him, wanted him, they couldn't come close to what Ennis felt when he was with Jack. Even though he tried to live the conventional life, both women left the relationship unhappy and unfulfilled.
It wasn't until Jack death, did Ennis finally understood it all, the joy they had, the pain they shared, and the answer was in Jack's room. There was no limbo after that, Ennis and Jack were in love, I think Ennis finally accepted that, and most importantly accepted himself, a little late, but acceptance always comes in its own time.
To quote the poet "I contain multitudes". So do we all.
Good point. We can read these two men however we want, read the whole movie however we want, but AP is the one who can really answer this question. And LM and DO and AL, too, I suppose, since AP gave them a certain amount of liberty with her story.
kathy
Yes they can...and I agree with manhattangirl....so well said. This is why I dislike labels so much. We are not a world of homosexuals and heterosexuals..we are a world of human beings and sometimes the lines get crossed. I don't find it unbelievable in the least that a "heterosexual male" would fall in love with another man...given the right circumstances...I've seen it happen to men as well as women. Does it cause confusion and anxiety? Of course it does...look what it did to Ennis. Was ennis gay? If you want to label him gay or not it doesn't seem important to me....he was just a man who happened to fall in love with another man. Maybe I am simplyfing the matter. But that is how I feel about it.
kathy, here I disagree. I would even wager that Proulx does not even know the final answer. And even if she did have a strong opinion, I doubt that she would want to spell it out any time soon. She knows the power of literature and fiction in particular. The ambiguity of Ennis's sexuality is one of the great powers of story and film. As in Poetry, to spell out everything would be to destroy that power.
I have just one question. Is it conceievable to you a heterosexual could fall in love or be attracted to a person of the same sex strongly enough to cause some confusion and anxiety? Have you ever considered introducing the dynamics of bi-sexuality into the equation ?
Agreed, that Annie didn't spell it out; but I'm thinking of her sense of Ennis, what she felt when she was writing him; and what the others felt, in how to portray him (both of them). Besides being masters of their crafts, the writer, the filmmaker, as far as leaving it ambiguous, it is also that many people do have trouble with ambiguity in sexual matters. I like it, myself. My own experience is bisexual, so I'm comfortable with not-either/or.
I think that if Ennis hadn't had the "Rich and Earl" experience, he might have been a more ordinary heterosexual guy who never gave deep thought to homosexuality. Maybe had some youthful experience, but didn't agonize over it. Considered his place was to do the wife-and-children thing. And I could see him falling into a thing with Jack, as we saw it, even in this circumstance. But because he did have that experience, he spent the next years in serious "don't-be-queer-don't-be-queer" mode, so that having the thing with Jack then put him into a crazy spin -- kind of schizo, like ignoring it during the four years (except for 'wranging it out a thousand times') and during the other times apart from Jack, then plunging in wholeheartedly when with Jack.
But with just a slightly different perspective on some part of the story or movie, I can see Ennis other ways, too. And I love that about BBM, and about everyone here, with all the different perspectives.
kathy
So true. That's considering he did have that inclination from his young years on. If so, then yes, that kind of repression is so unhealthy, internally, and acting-out, and worse. Certainly the man we saw, who was so quick to use his fists -- if his pent-up-ness wasn't due to repressed sexual inclinations, then it was due to repressed something.
kathy
Ennis is such an interesting character, sexually speaking. You are right: we really know next to nothing about his sexual inclinations during his early/formative years. Although he claimed to be a virgin by the time he met Jack, I would think that he must have had SOME degree of sexual experience. After all, he was considering marrying Alma in November, and one does not decide on marriage with someone you have not had some degree of intimacy with.
Some very small degree of intimacy only, I think. In those times, and she was probably a good church-going girl, and it wouldn't have been at all out of the question that they had not had sex yet, that she at least would insist on waiting until they're married. Who knows, though -- maybe she was really a little tiger under that demure exterior we saw at the wedding. (A number of girls I knew (not me!) were having sex as teens in 1963, and getting pregnant, too, but that was in the city.)
kathy
I'm not entirely sure that Alma didn't just see Ennis as a possible father of her children and one with whom to settle down - she seemd quite happy to be a drudge at the beginning of their marriage. It was more Ennis's lack of ability to provide than anything else which was a cause of conflict, though of course she may not have wanted to bring up his sexual preferences.
I don't think he was gay in a general sense, but maybe that's because Ennis is such a limited man; he's found Jack but I don;t think would go out looking for a substitute as he didn't see himself as gay.Evidently for 16 years Jack was what he wanted - someone else said he was "gay-for-Jack" and I tend to agree.
I have just one question. Is it conceievable to you a heterosexual could fall in love or be attracted to a person of the same sex strongly enough to cause some confusion and anxiety? Have you ever considered introducing the dynamics of bi-sexuality into the equation ?Yes I truly believe that to be the case but then of course if people of the same sex become attracted and labels used, then they would be labelled bisexual. It could be a case that if Ennis had ever even had a fleeting feeling towards another man that he suppressed those thoughts until he met Jack when the feelings were too strong to ignore and he felt he was were he could not be seen, he was safe. Other than for being with Jack he truly identified himself as straight because in his words "I ain't queer".
This is why I dislike labels so much. We are not a world of homosexuals and heterosexuals..we are a world of human beings and sometimes the lines get crossed. I don't find it unbelievable in the least that a "heterosexual male" would fall in love with another man...given the right circumstances...I've seen it happen to men as well as women. Does it cause confusion and anxiety? Of course it does...look what it did to Ennis. Was ennis gay? If you want to label him gay or not it doesn't seem important to me....he was just a man who happened to fall in love with another man.You may be simplifying the matter because it is a simple matter, at least for us here.
Maybe I am simplyfing the matter. But that is how I feel about it.
The question about whether the boys were "gay" is ENORMOUSLY important. It gets at one of the most important questions our culture is grappling with: are people who fall in love with others of the same gender essentially different (a different class), or simply humans expressing love and desire in a form less common. The implications of how the question is answered are profound.
I've written some thoughts (http://www.ratdiary.com/?p=55) on this issue that may be interesting, or unwelcome; but they are offered sincerely. I'd be interested in hearing what people think.
Personally, I don't think they were gay. They were just two men in love... ;)
Thanks Asali and kathy.
It is interesting to contrast Ang Lee's and Jake Gyllenhaal's views as to the sexuality of the characters. I also recall that Gyllenhaal took some heat when many people chose to interpret what he said more literally that he had intended. I do believe Ang Lee reacted somewhat to this when he admitted that he thought the characters were gay, when he was asked to react to Gyllenhaal's statement.
I think it is true what Ang Lee noted: that in both short story and screenplay, the nature of their secuality is a mystery. It is up to each individual to decide for themselves.
Here is a related question: if Ennis is gay, does it -- in a way -- make him less or more interesting to you?
For me, it is certainly more interesting if Ennis is indeed gay. His conflicting tendencies are cast into sharper focus.
Hi Sprague,
I am so with you about the whole essentialism issue! And I loved your thoughts in the ratdiary. So, when you say that you personally think Ennis and Jack were gay, do you mean that "gay" is a suspect category as such (many people on this forum are fighting being labled, which I can understand) or do you say: Lots of people are gay, but these two weren't? I once posed the question if it is possible to call somebody gay who would be totally unable to embrace the idea. In my opinion Ennis can't be gay, because he only knows being "queer" which is something horrible and terrifying for him. Does being gay mean that you have to WANT to be gay? If I say that Ennis definitely wasn't gay (see above definition) I do say that he had homosexual tendencies, as do most of us. And yes, they were also just two human beings in love ;)
monicita
I'm not exactly remembering what Jake said -- can you tell us again, please? I didn't really get what Ang Lee said, what he was responding to, without knowing what Jake had said.
I, too, think it was purposely left open to our own interpretations as to their "natural" sexuality. And I personally think they were just men who found feelings within themselves, with each other -- feelings more familiar to Jack than to Ennis, or, interpreted by them differently.
kathy
I'm afraid I'm a bit new to internet discussions, but I'm an old-timer in relationships. I lived in the Cascade Mts (west of the Rockies) in the '60s and had a very similar relationship to that of Jack and Innes. There was no concept of "gay"; guys often fooled around with one another when they were in a tent. No label was applied to them. Later, studying social anthropology in the mountain ranges of eastern Europe, I encountered many similar relationships - especially amoung herdsmen. Most of them married and had kids and retained the deep friendships with whom they'd formed a sexual bond in their youth. Some languages even have a distinct name for a same-sex friend with whom sex and affection are accepted; but they rarely have any term which describes a person as fixed with a lifelong attraction to the same, and not the opposite, sex. It was Jack's second year on Brokeback Mountain. I figured he'd had some sexual experiences with his partner of the previous year (they were always sent up in pairs). When he first sees Ennis, he checks him out for this possibility. When he seduces him in the tent, he simply introduces him to the mechanics and potential of sex. Ennis is overwhelmed by this as he's been deprived of affection and Jack is overcome with the response; he's deperate for acceptance. Their mutual loneliness creates a love which is confirmed by the sexual bonding. That is precisely what happened to me and I know of many other cases. My reading of Annie Proulx and Larry McMurtry suggests that they are familiar with this phenomenon; known worldwide but seriously misunderstood in Anglo-American society. Lachlan
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU Tpe.
People who think Ennis isn't gay, in my opinion, lost a good part of complexity of his personality. The inner conflict he lives become less pregnant.
Personally, I think of gayness as innate, and not something one would want or force upon others. Not that you can't talk about gayness through social conditioning; nonetheless, there is distinctlion between the tendency to commit homosexual acts (which I agree is widespread, if not universal) and orientation.
I would admit that Ennis had homosexual proclivities. But I would go further in saying that it is not just a tendency; rather, it was the defining orientation by which he came to define true love and which even his prejudices could not destroy.
I do think that part of the complexity is the inability to accept a core element of one's personality. This is how I interpreted Annie Proulx's comment of BBM as a study of homophobia. It is the ultimate study of homophobia: for a homophobe to be in fact homosexual.
Hello kathy. I posted the quotes somewhere, but can't find the quotes right now.
Gyllenhaal was quoted in saying that he thought Ennis and Jack were two straight guys who jaust happened to fall in love with each other. This raised quite a ruckus in some quarters, and Ang Lee, when asked to comment about this, said something like: I don't know, but they were pretty much gay to me.
It is best to quote them rather than to paraphrase what they said. That way, there is no misinterpretation when I try to say what they said.
Yes! Right words Tpe. You wrote exactly what's my thinking about.
The core of BBM's bigness is just the way the Proulx's tale - and then the film - depict how a man (Ennis) could live his whole life without accepting the truth of his inner being. The way he could approach this truth by experiencing an unexpected and overwelming love for another man (Jack) and, nevertheless, he could reject the chance of make the following steps. The steps which would bring him to become aware of his homosexuality.
The issue is gayness is not something you choose for yourself, is only something you discover about yourself. When you discover it, then, you can choose - more or less consciously - to accept it or not. And behave therefore.
That is not a silly question. I believe that what you say is most definitely likely to be the case with Ennis. It may not make you nuts but certainly confused within yourself. It could have something to do with the final confrontation I suppose.
I hope this question isn't silly:
Could Ennis subconsciouly be aware of his homosexuality, but consciously couldn't accept it. But repeatly over twenty years, meet with Jack, sleep with him, make love to him. Then disavow the relationship later. couldn't that make you a little nuts?
Was that the breakdown Ennis had when he confess to Jack, that he couldn't stand it anymore at the final confrontation?
Yes! Right words Tpe. You wrote exactly what's my thinking about.
The core of BBM's bigness is just the way the Proulx's tale - and then the film - depict how a man (Ennis) could live his whole life without accepting the truth of his inner being. The way he could approach this truth by experiencing an unexpected and overwelming love for another man (Jack) and, nevertheless, he could reject the chance of make the following steps. The steps which would bring him to become aware of his homosexuality.
The issue is gayness is not something you choose for yourself, is only something you discover about yourself. When you discover it, then, you can choose - more or less consciously - to accept it or not. And behave therefore.
There you have it !!!
Yes exactly, remove the labels and it would be even more simple.
Thanks, tpe. I recall both comments, now, Jake's and Lee's. So no worry about paraphrasing. I'm surprised Jake would think that Jack is straight (and Ennis is just a whole case of his own). Maybe he meant that they could live stright lives. Well, lots of gays do that, huh?
I don't have anything really to base this on, but I think all young people grow up entertaining some thought of same-sex sexuality in some way. Maybe they hadn't had any actual previous experience. Or maybe they had -- when a boy, in Ennis's case; and in Jack's case, I tend to think he definitely had had previous sexual experience with males and not that long before. But having thoughts, and maybe some youthful experience, doesn't make those young people gay. However, once Ennis and Jack got together, and it was so strong between them, then certainly I could call them gay. Maybe there's such a thing as "situational gay." As opposed to them having a preexisting gay condition before they met. :s)
kathy
Having been brought up in a mountain community, I think that virtually all of the boys experimented sexually with one another, but most of them had or soon developed a desire for females which over-rode their desire for male sex. "Gayness" is far too often interpretted as a lack of desire for the opposite sex. When I lived, in later years, in different cultures (still in fairly remote mountain ranges) I found that sex-play among boys was acknowledged as part of youth; after all, there was no contraception available and pregancy meant marriage. The fact that a boy had engaged in sexual activities or relationships withother boys did not tar him with any label or suggest that he was less of a man. Since then I have not been part of a "gay scene", and haven't felt easy on the occasions that I've encountered one. However, I have had numerous sexual experiences with other males. The overwhelming majority of these were with men who were primarily attracted to females but enjoyed occasional male-male play, so long as it did not label them as "gay"; to them this would simply imply that they could not score with a woman when the opportunity arose. In societies and languages with no such term as "gay" (I speak several which have no equivalent word; English didn't have one until modern times), it's no problem. Jack's trip to Mexico (which involved a prostitute in the film but, significantly, not in the story) could well be an allusion to the fact that in '60s USA, Mexican males were reputed to be willing to have a session with other males without getting ostracised with a label such as "queer". I can remember jokes told in the '60s about Mexicans as ready to go with either sex.
As I wrote on another thread or forum, 1963 was Jack's second year on the mountain and I figure he must have had some hanky-panky with whoever was his partner during the first summer. Therefore, he probably assumes it's on the cards for him to get into the sack with Ennis eventually. But I don't think Jack would ever allow himself to be called "queer", so long as he was able and willing to do the same with a woman. That is a very, very common perception among rural males even today; I can vouch for that!
It's all very interesting. Yet we are not talking about 2 herdsmen in Steirmark or the Transylvanian Alps, we're talking about 2 19 year old doofus's in 1963 Wyoming. To them, I'd think you would need to apply the standards of their own culture, one where M/M activities as boys were prevalent and simply never discussed. So there is that. Then we come to the odious labels. Most of them suck. Yet if you apply certain criteria which every bi male I know uses, these 2 come out gay as a picnic basket.
What does bisexual actually mean? Most people called bisexual are either gay males 'coming out' or hetero males who are open and curious. OK, the most used label says they can function sexually with either sex. But does that describe what it actually is? No.
Being truly bisexual has one criteria you cannot get rid of: what someone on another forum called 'the ability to forge that special bond' between two people regardless of their gender. If you can fall in love deeply with a woman, and have the ability to fall in love just as deeply with a man, then you are bi. If you can't you aren't. Everything else is a smokescreen of BS.
Could Ennis Delmar, did Ennis Delmar, have the ability to love Alma as deeply as he loved Jack? No, in neither the book nor the film. The director and writers put in the character of Cassie to point up that Ennis was incapable of falling in love with a woman who was, for all intents and purposes, a female Jack.
Until I used the standard the real bi men as opposed to the narcissistic omnivores or the gay men coming out used and applied that standard to J&E, yeah they could be seen as bi. Once that was used, no way, they;'re gay as they come, they can't and don't have the ability to form a deep love with a woman.
Brokeback_1:
I agree with what you've posted, my problem with the previous posts by tpe and lachlan, (very interesting) , deals with the role of woman. The woman seem to be a touchstone for a man to prove he's not "gay" to the world, " See I have a woman, who has my children, I'm just like you". if that's the case , the woman is a "beard", and the man can continue his "male to male" romps every now and then, secure in his self image. If you think that's there no consequences to that. Look to the story of Ennis and Jack, and then look at Alma and Lureen, I saw no contentment in these woman who were just spectators in this long running affair.
As I previously stated to another member in this forum, Ennis showed indifference to Alma, It may not been intentional, but something thats nonetheless ate away at the marriage, which was only reinforced by his relationship with Cassie, the poor girl didn't stand a chance. In the case of Jack and Lureen, you saw it in Lureen restlessness, and discontentment.
tpe and lanchlan: if I misunderstood your posts my apologies, but is there a "true sexual self", not matter if you're homosexual or heterosexual, or just doing what comes easy?
I think all of us can agree with this: for a man to have sex with another man does not define gayness, in as much as to have sex with a woman does not define straightness, and the ability to have sex with both does not imply bisexuality. It is not as simple as that.
tpe,
My apologies. The question of one's sexual identity is indeed a solitary journey, I was thinking in the context of the film, that both Alma and Lureen, each had to search for their identity as women. We saw what different roads each woman took. In the wake of Jack and Ennis love was not only a search for one's true sexual self, but a search of one's identity in and of itself. I really hope I'm making sense.
This topic overlaps with the discussion on the thread relating to Ennis's sexuality.
Part of me says that these 2 topics should be merged. Let me know what you think, manhattangirl.
Actually, I share your opinion. I have stated similar reasons in the thread dealing with Ennis's sexuality. But whatever Ennis's secuality is, there is no doubt that he loved Jack.
tpe:
If you think this is best, I have no problems with it, I trust your judgement.
The topic, then, is---can love be so great as to transcend original sexual preferences, and how would that happen? What terrible needs would
there be to force a person out of their "natural" ways, and into the arms of another of the same gender. Please note--am reversing the subject
area, to allow broader exploration. The subject is not whether Ennis was gay or straight (although replies on that are still relevant), but broader-
what could make a person desensitized and go past their basic nature. And I'd like to know if it would be different for women than for men.
Some of you know I believe Ennis' loneliness was the key factor in expanding his sexuality, but will show every respect for any opinion.
Why is it that Ennis sexual nature has to be one thing, and all of sudden he was fighting not go over to the "dark side" like he was Luke Skywalker. Ennis grew to care, than to love, an almost natural progression, and was reached out to by someone who knew the way inside him. (am I misunderstanding, it wouldn't be the first time).
my 2cents.
Manhattangirl, you and I don't see it as his moving into a dark side, but towards freedom, but you are right- HE saw it, if not as the dark
side, but the troubled, unexplained side. I don't think he was guilty about the sexuality-there's too much progression towards acceptance of
that as the years went on.
Have always wondered what would have happened if they, separately, stumbled into...a gay bar. I don't think it would be a fan-fic revelation
and all would change-they were too complex. But I think Jack would have scoped it out, as a sensual person, and felt better than from those
sordid trips to Mexico. Ennis, I think, might have sat off to himself, both stupefied and brooding, and gone home alone. (And of course, yuk, yuk,
making sure Jack never found the bar).
MG--I don't think it's just Ennis tormented by his sexuality. Am gonna go there. I think, at times, MOST men are. Straight guys can be
tormented by their exotic fantasies of women, that don't fit their self-image. Straight guys can feel guilty about--straight sex. And so much the
worse for a straight guy who bumps up against a guy in the shower room in gym class and is aroused, and tormented by that for the rest of
his life, always trying to prove he's straight. So it isn't just gays who have troubles adjusting, and severe troubles for repressed gays (as you
may see Ennis). Sorry, MG---at different times, STRAIGHT guys are troubled by their straight desires and "this thing that comes over them"
and makes them so needy of...women. Sex is a trouble zone all around. Combine it with love and, well, can go better, can even go worse.
Sorry if that's a shock to straight women, but guys aren't going to tell you everything, so you wouldn't have heard it.
TPE, for me, if iEnnis is gay, is also a more interesting story. I cannot imagine the degree of inner pain and struggle he must have endured (BBM shows some).
My heart aches for Ennis :\'(
Yes, I agree. The conflict is at the heart of the story.
:\'( :\'( :\'( It is so touching
all I can say is that Ennis loved Jack, he might not have said it but he sure showed it in many ways. So were they both gay or was Ennis gay? I don't know how to answer that. It seemed like all he wanted was JACK but he couldn't allow himself to reach out and take what Jack was offering.
When I first came to the fandom I was reading all kinds of ideas as to their sexuality. One thing that someone said and it has stayed with me (maybe it's cliche or maybe it's just dumb or an over simplification)
But I always liked the term Jacksexual :D when referring to what Ennis was.
Thomas, am not going to stay on this topic, and for good reasons, but wanted to add a little more to my post above. Chameau had
rearranged the furniture, more or less, by merging an ungainly thread I had started, with this one and so I go--"Huh?"
Alls well that ends well, for I made some discoveries. One I mentioned, was the vitriol in another forum that really shook me up. So then,
yesterday, I read this topic, all freaking 13 pages of it, and a new discovery---it was one of the best discussions I'd ever seen. Am still puzzled
as to why the minority opinion (Ennis is straight, or could be) really wasn't the minority opinion. There's been some drift as people backed off
from earlier opinions. But was mostly impressed by the civilized discourse, the good will and even entirely new information.
Might add that I caught you out in suggesting what I have fought for, that in great literature, the characters go past their author and take
on independent existence. And also found earlier opinions of frequent post-ers that would have supported so much of what I felt could be there.
Above all, I saw----good people. And the subject was so well-explored, I doubt I could ever add to it, on the narrower issue.
So, being relatively new to the internet, and to this forum, will just say---that was a hell of a good job you guys did on this topic, and though
the issue was left unsettled, it was left there, gently. Now it's up to me to temper my own posts in accordance with this new information and
not assume--you haven't been there before. It was an unbelievably frank, calm, well-reasoned, and friendly thread. Well done. Beautiful.
all I can say is that Ennis loved Jack, he might not have said it but he sure showed it in many ways. So were they both gay or was Ennis gay? I don't know how to answer that. It seemed like all he wanted was JACK but he couldn't allow himself to reach out and take what Jack was offering.
When I first came to the fandom I was reading all kinds of ideas as to their sexuality. One thing that someone said and it has stayed with me (maybe it's cliche or maybe it's just dumb or an over simplification)
But I always liked the term Jacksexual :D when referring to what Ennis was.
;D
Ennis found something in Jack, that welded itself to Jack, and the physical was a step closer to him. It's like watching tug-o-war with Ennis at both ends. Does this make sense?
Ennis found something in Jack, that welded itself to Jack, and the physical was a step closer to him. It's like watching tug-o-war with Ennis at both ends. Does this make sense?
Makes a lot 'o sense to me MHG. It was more than just being homosexual, Jack was his other half without whom he was not whole. Ennis discovered this other side of himself on the mountain at 19 and discovered later that he wouldn't be complete again without it. Sex was a part of it, but only a part of the equation IMHO.
This may be where the discussion can get heated as Tony points out. For many gay men their sexuality defines a big part of who they are, for others it is less so. So "gay" is important, very important for some, for others, who are also gay, it less important. Neither is better or more meaningful than the other, but it can be difficult to discuss this issue without seeming to demean the other point of view. In the case of our boys they seem to fall on opposite sides of this coin (maybe).
That term "Jacksexual" I think is great, as far as it goes, describing the sexual aspect. But to me it's really more like "Jackcentric". Jack was IT, period. Lover, companion, buddy, partner, friend, he was Ennis's link to the outside world from within.
I have always considered gayness as much more than just sexual attraction.
OK, now you've got me puzzled. Maybe OT here, but like what :s) ?
Just curious. Are you meaning that Ennis may be homosexual, but not "gay"?
Hello Jackster. For the record, I believe Ennis was gay. You can't be gay and not be homosexual, IMO.
Thanks for the clarification Thomas. Can't say I agree about Ennis (I think maybe we discussed this once before) don't see him as even a little bit "gay" myself, but that's me. Curious what would be some feminine sensibilities that you feel Ennis exhibits in the gay scale? For the record I see Ennis as homosexual, in that he was attracted to and liked sex with Jack who was male. Seems to pretty much end there for me.
It has always been a point of discussion as to whether Ennis was attracted to any other man than Jack. Given his repressed nature, we shall never know. AS far as we can tell, it may have only been Jack.
I should mention that Annie Proulx herself had said that one of the starting points for her story was to see in real life an elderly ranch hand/cowboy look longingly at a group of young cowboys. Her implication is that this was the image of the elder Ennis. So at least to Proulx, Ennis was probably attracted to other men.
Unless he was just looking at the young men and dreaming of his youth with his "Jack," or the lack thereof.
I am still enjoying everything this thread brings up. It's not some scientific question about the story and the movie that can be answered logically, since we each bring a different perspective to it. And also, I like what you said, Thomas -- the question is as important or more important than the answer; and it is yet another way we learn about how we come together here on this forum.
I read with interest all your ideas, Tony. Since the question will never be answered, just keep on talking about it.
kathy
I only know one thing, in that first summer, Jack found a way to Ennis, that Alma apparently couldn't. Ennis's life may looked conventional, but it really wasn't. He lived it for one thing to be with Jack. It wasn't that he was a failure, or felt like he was nothing, Oh, it came up in the final confrontation, but his life was dedicated to one person. Jack, overshadowing everything else in life, that's why the breakdown, Jack just didn't get it, and Ennis realized that Jack was his life. Can anyone love another in just this way, and wonder who are? Did Ennis ever questioned it?
I only know one thing, in that first summer, Jack found a way to Ennis, that Alma apparently couldn't. Ennis's life may looked conventional, but it really wasn't. He lived it for one thing to be with Jack. It wasn't that he was a failure, or felt like he was nothing, Oh, it came up in the final confrontation, but his life was dedicated to one person. Jack, overshadowing everything else in life, that's why the breakdown, Jack just didn't get it, and Ennis realized that Jack was his life. Can anyone love another in just this way, and wonder who are? Did Ennis ever questioned it?Without a doubt Ennis would have questioned who he was and what was going on within himself, you could not have these feelings and not question yourself, as much he may have not wanted to admit anything to himself about his feelings and who he was, he would have realised how real these feelings were and that they were not going to disappear.
Personally, I don't think Ennis had any tendencies toward homosexuality when he was a child, but I DO think that his father taught him something when he took him to see the battered body of one of the two men who were "ranched up together".
. . . So then, the only exposure he had to real, overwhelming love was that shown and risked by Earl and Rich. The sexuality, at his age, would not
have been completely understood. So, am willing to risk saying this--Earl and Rich enabled Ennis' ability to love Jack emotionally, and tormented
him, as to the consequences sexually. Enabled, and blocked. . . .
I agree and of course you're right here, one of Ennis's earliest memories is of someone who died because of his love, no wonder he was as you say tormented. Don't know about his lack of childhood love however, remember in the Dozy Embrace he hums and recalls a saying by his mama as he embraces Jack. He must have some good memories to make that association during that expression of real love don'tcha think? As far as bro & sis go, they possibly had to fight to keep him from being taken to a foster home so there was maybe some love there too I feel. It woulda' been a tough time anyway you slice it. Maybe what his childhood lacked was continuity, stability, predictability. Maybe part of what made him so reluctant to commit with JT.
And, thanks for your praise Tony. :^^)
Was he gay? I don't know, but personally I feel that sexuality is multi-faceted. I don't feel it is a gay/staight issue as sexuality has many branches attached.Brilliant post aintfoolin, I chose a couple of pieces from that. Absolutely agree about sexuality as being multi-faceted, so many branches for sure imo. It really would be interesting if Ennis was to fall in love again wether it would be male, female or just be lonely forever. :s)
Ennis was doing both too, while identifying as a straight male. He fell in LOVE, which makes the difference imo. This went beyond just sexual acts. Jack became a necessity in Ennis's life, a part of Ennis. Did'nt feel complete without him. He no doubt questioned his sexual ID, especially the scene where he's sitting on the log before SNIT.
I often wonder post-Jack, could Ennis ever love again? If he could, would it be man? or woman? or niether? Which one would he gravitate toward if givin the choice?, taking in the life's lessons about loving himself Jack taught him. This would be a true test of his "orientation" and very telling of Ennis if he hooked up with another man, post-Jack of course.
Ditto Tony, GREAT post Ain'tfoolin.Many as well as 'straight' men and women or rather those that identified as being 'straight'.
I am continually amazed at how this short story and unpretentious film can ignite such intelligent and thought provoking discussions about that most basic, yet complex of human emotions, LOVE.
What was Ennis thinking while sitting on that log? Am I queer?
Do I love Jack?
Does he hate me?
Does he love me?
What do I do?
What am I feeling?
How many gay men (and women) have struggled with these same questions and answers.
. . . It really would be interesting if Ennis was to fall in love again wether it would be male, female or just be lonely forever.
Many as well as 'straight' men and women or rather those that identified as being 'straight'. . . .Didn't mean to leave those folks out for sure, it is universal. For homosexuals this inner stirring and these questions about love also bring with them a tide of gut wrenching identity issues, i.e. Who am I? Is this really me? Why?
Personally, I don't think Ennis had any tendencies toward homosexuality when he was a child, but I DO think that his father taught him something when he took him to see the battered body of one of the two men who were "ranched up together". Most children 10 years old or younger, in those days, were not aware that two men or two women could or would love each other physically. These things were not talked about, and certainly weren't shown on tv or in movies in the 60's. Most people didn't know what homosexuality was until they were in their teens, or at least that's when my schoolmates and I first became aware of the existence of same-sex love. So, Ennis's father, by showing him the body, opened his mind to the possibility of two men being life-partners.
This may sound really odd, but I can see Ennis truly loving his horse, brushing it, washing it, riding it, talking to it (little darlin'). Almost a surrogate for the departed Jack. Animals are so nonjudgmental I feel Ennis could really connect here and feel a real love.Oh yeah I am sure Ennis could connect with 'love' regardless.
Didn't mean to leave those folks out for sure, it is universal. For homosexuals this inner stirring and these questions about love also bring with them a tide of gut wrenching identity issues, i.e. Who am I? Is this really me? Why?Yes its universal but I what I meant about the 'straight' questioning is ones such as Ennis who find themselves having to question their identity when they realise without warning or later than others that they have these feelings and this is where I think the many branches of sexuality fit in.
My view of that is that if he had no homosexual tendencies, it would have remained just that -- an understanding of a possibility.
I was a child in an era (1950s) when even heterosexual married couples slept in separate twin beds -- at least, that was the impression you got on TV in that era. But all the same, I showed -- and felt -- signs of being heterosexual when I was about five and got a crush on Tommy Reddig, the male lead in the original Lassie series. Tommy was deposed shortly after that when I got a crush on Elvis, and that was followed by a crush on the minister's son down the street, followed by a classroom sweetheart named George.... you get the picture. :)
This was all at a time when I didn't even know where babies came from, and for several years after that I had the notion that conception was something that took place in the spirit world. But as young as five, I knew that there was something about boys that was interesting to me in a way that girls just weren't. I don't have any problem believing that a kid who's gay would have that same kind of pre-sexual awakening; IMO, the presence of Earl and Rich in the same community might have gotten a few wheels turning on the subconscious level.
Hi, Marge, and welcome to the forum!
I think we're saying about the same thing. We're definitely from the same era. While I think you are saying Ennis may have had homosexual leanings as a child, I'm not denying that as a possibility at all. It's just that I think, IF HE DIDN'T, seeing what became of Earl and Rich may have opened his mind to the possibility of man/man love. I don't think the short story nor the film give us any real information on which was the case. We just have to come up with the possibilities and settle for that in the face of no proof.
Hi, Marge, and welcome to the forum!
I think we're saying about the same thing. We're definitely from the same era. While I think you are saying Ennis may have had homosexual leanings as a child, I'm not denying that as a possibility at all. It's just that I think, IF HE DIDN'T, seeing what became of Earl and Rich may have opened his mind to the possibility of man/man love. I don't think the short story nor the film give us any real information on which was the case. We just have to come up with the possibilities and settle for that in the face of no proof.
Ennis spoke of Earl and Rich with a respect he must secretly harbored for them. He understood what he and Jack had. It was no suprise, he knew every time lay down with Jack what he was doing, who he was.
He just didn't want to be another "Joke of the Town".
Whatever latent feelings Ennis had for Jack before the FNIT, it was probably amalgamated with the sense of loneliness that pervaded him. The need for companionship is usually confused sometimes for deeper feelings within, no? People sometimes justify this in order not to feel so vulnerable. And I think this was the case with Ennis. He probably justified his growing feelings for Jack in a way that harkened back to his own isolation and his need to be loved.Yes,sometimes we love or even fall in love with someone who gives us company and above all,who listens to us when we need to.Perhaps what happenned was only that Jack arrived in the right moment of Ennis vulnerability.
Yes,sometimes we love or even fall in love with someone who gives us company and above all,who listens to us when we need to.Perhaps what happenned was only that Jack arrived in the right moment of Ennis vulnerability.
I agree with you,as always.But IMO the core of the question would be if it´s necessary to put labels to people´s most intimate feelings and to moral,sexual or emotional issues as we do nowadays,or at least in the measure we do it.Everybody could really fall in love with a same sex person,if he or she arrives in the right moment,in the right place...and if that person answers to the ideal we have.But only learned culture and moral oblige us to hide these sensations,even to ourselves.Totally agree with post, I will comment briefly on the three parts of your posts (imo) Labels - not necessary, fall in love with same sex - yeah for sure, learned culture/hiding these sensations - yep, even to ourselves.
Endlessly fascinating to read everyones ideas on this subject. I recently listened to Annie Proulx's radio interview of Jan 19, 2006 (almost two years ago!) and she talks about Ennis's sexuality and what she was trying to accomplish in the SS, and it's pretty much what we all seem to say. She says she tried to show the sliding scale of human sexuality, it's not just black or white but mostly gray, which is certainly where Ennis falls. As you say MPJ it seems almost incidental that Jack was a man, a woman with the same personality characteristics and warmth MAY have been able to achieve the same results with Ennis.
Annie's worthwhile interview can be found at:
http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw060119annie_proulx (http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw060119annie_proulx)
What a wonderful person she sounds to be, how I would love to have coffee with her someday (in my dreams).
Jackster--that was one heck of an interview, and presents a dilemma, because it covers so very much, it doesn't fit into a single thread.
But very definitely, this interview did NOT define either of the ranch hands (she makes it clear they were not cowboys) as gay, and she spoke of
sliding scales of sexuality and areas of gray. And there was so very much we have struggled to understand, and it was already there in this
very early resource.
She mentions the concept of the wormhole (in physics) and says BBM was like that-the two entered one way and exited another. [...]
Including that the characters can take on a life of their own. She said they did. And she said it was like a strange hand came from heaven and was guiding her pen. And she said, she couldn't "kill them off" in the sense of discarding them, when done. Also, she acknowledged
the writer's subconscious, when she said Heath Ledger had portayed Ennis in ways that had been in her mind and yet never had come out.
Very important-she said if it was just sex---there was no story. Thank you, Jackster, for the best damned resource I have come across yet.
[...]
Jackster-----we all owe you one on this.
Also, I love Annie's persistence to remind us that the greatest love story is about two lowly unattractive (in the original short story) ranch hands sheep herders. Not the Marlboro men. She is saying that love, can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime. It is a force of nature, not a manufactured product from Hollywood.
I may get grief for this, but there is a almost Tennessee Williams sense to the story. The character of Brick and his friendship with Skipper, in the play "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof". Brick and Skipper complete opposite of Jack and Ennis, but basically dealing with same thing a friendship that unexpectedly turns into a need for each other. It left both Ennis and Brick dealing consequences when their friend are suddenly taken away from them, guilt and acceptance.
Both men feared being labeled, but Ennis consummated his love, wheres Brick turns away from it. The sliding scale of sexuality can be so delicate, so unexpected either succumb to it , or desperately replace the need, in Brick's case he drank waiting for the "click". Ennis with "out in the middle of nowhere", where he stayed most of his life. Mendacity, now I understand how it plays a part in both stories.
Am I making any kind of sense to you?
Good point, stacp. Ennis wouldn't have fantasies about other men because that would be a "queer" thing to do and he isn't queer in his own mind. I think too he's a faithful sort of guy - he was engaged to Alma before he met Jack and stays with her despite everything - she's the one who leaves him. And he's faithful to Jack in the sense that he's never involved with another man, and doesn't apparently get far with Cassie.
...
I think your absolutely right, Ennis's father planted the seeds, or at least watered them, by making such a big deal about E & R and this male relationship. It allowed Ennis to realize his feelings in way that he may never had achieved without this gruesome introduction, of course it also tied his inner self into an incredibly tight knot. A knot that only Jack Twist could then undo.
Ditto Tony, GREAT post Ain'tfoolin.
I am continually amazed at how this short story and unpretentious film can ignite such intelligent and thought provoking discussions about that most basic, yet complex of human emotions, LOVE.
What was Ennis thinking while sitting on that log?
Am I queer?
Do I love Jack?
Does he hate me?
Does he love me?
What do I do?
What am I feeling?
How many gay men (and women) have struggled with these same questions and answers.
Love this, jackster, the musings of Ennis outside the tent. I would also add that he would be thinking about the fact that he if he goes in there, then it was not just a one-time thing (FNIT). What does it mean if I go in there and we have sex? I can't say it was just a drunken act. Perhaps he was also wondering if he would actually know what to do (since he's in his right mind this night, not drunk). He might be wondering if Jack would want to f*ck him, and might be nervous about that... He did go in there and let Jack take the lead, so perhaps he was open to letting Jack do whatever he wanted to do...and anyway, we don't know what went on that night...
I may get grief for this, but there is a almost Tennessee Williams sense to the story. The character of Brick and his friendship with Skipper, in the play "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof". Brick and Skipper complete opposite of Jack and Ennis, but basically dealing with same thing a friendship that unexpectedly turns into a need for each other. It left both Ennis and Brick dealing consequences when their friend are suddenly taken away from them, guilt and acceptance.
Both men feared being labeled, but Ennis consummated his love, wheres Brick turns away from it. The sliding scale of sexuality can be so delicate, so unexpected either succumb to it , or desperately replace the need, in Brick's case he drank waiting for the "click". Ennis with "out in the middle of nowhere", where he stayed most of his life. Mendacity, now I understand how it plays a part in both stories.
Am I making any kind of sense to you?
I love this discussion, factoring in Ennis's dad's attitude toward Rich and Earl into Ennis's early development. It might have been very different on Brokeback if he had developed no negative connotation about men together when he was young. Assuming he didn't have "gay" feelings from a young age, if he had learned about homosexuality gradually as a teen, as does seem to be most common, and considered himself straight, then who knows how he might have reacted to Jack's coming on to him.
I just love what I bolded, what you said, Jackster. He was indeed all tied up inside...until Jack. Actually, until after Jack was gone.
kathy
So, it was certainly love, if not homosexuality. Some "gay" people could love someone of the same gender and it not be sexual. But I guess that would be "homoemotional," not "homosexual." Gladly, they were randy, hormonal young men, and sex did enter into the picture...
kathy
This could be so difficult to find these days, especially when we talk about openly gay young men in the cities.Completely agree.As a friend of mine said,the focus is not on sex;this is only a way to love and be loved.
In the case of Ennis and Jack, I do think that their love was homoemotional as much as it would be considered homosexual.
Completely agree.As a friend of mine said,the focus is not on sex;this is only a way to love and be loved.
MPJ, you sort of echoed what I said in the other thread -- that sex is just a part of the whole, although it may be the catalyst for the deeper stuff that may come after.
I do know that with some people, friendship and familiarity come first before the physical and the sexual. However, I really think that it is rarer that there no initial spark of attraction, even if that attraction may be subcounscious/subliminal. In the matter of Ennis, I do think there was physical attraction from the start, although it was most likely not something that he was conscious about. It touched on fundamental sexuality, and not on just appearances.
I agree, Thomas. If Ennis had not felt a sexual spark, then Jack would have been just some guy who he really liked, a friend he was glad to find. A good friend like that, who he could open up to, would have been treasure enough, for a boy like Ennis, but it obviously was much more than that. And Jack certainly had a lot to do with that, beginning with the posturing the first time they met, with the more vivacious personality he had, to draw Ennis out. Just think if the other guy on Brokeback that summer had been a guy just like Ennis. They'd have gotten nowhere most likely; even if there was a spark, it probably would have been seriously tamped down. Except, of course, the getting-drunk thing does tend to make such things happen, whether they would have in their sober state or not.
kathy
Sometimes I feel Ennis felt he had to over-compensate his masculinity ( "I aint queer") on an unconcious level, because he knew deep inside, he was attracted to Jack, but if he was completly straight, no matter how right the conditions were to dally in sexual acts with another man, could he have let things go as far as they did with Jack? He had a male "ego" without being egotistical with Jack. Even felt homophobic toward gay men. Now here he was , faced with those very feelings himself toward Jack.
Could he have been resisting the undeniable truth within himself as well as Jack in that little struggle in FNIT? He knew something "queer" was gonna happen at that point, just did'nt know what ,yet when he realized Jack meant business, he eventually gave in to the advances, whereas, if he was a typical completly straight man of his times, and not "open" to any of this ,he would have laid Jack out and left the tent immediatley in disgust. Maybe even left the mountain, but something deeper was happening to him cuz This is not what happened.
Perhaps Ennis's expectations were not so out of the blue concerning sex with Jack. Maybe he longed for Jack to take the initiative, something he could never do. What I got from the scene is Jack breaking down the last vestiges of doubt in Ennis that he may have had about his sexual attraction to him. Ennis had to step over his own line in the sand to get to Jack. I suppose Jack felt he had Ennis *figured out* or defined somewhat if only, to a limited extent.. His "ready or not, your doin this" attitude took courage, but I think Ennis was pretty much involved with Jack already and wanted to express it in some way.
Jack simply gave him that opportunity and in doing so ,a definition for what he was feeling. Did this make him completly gay? still don't know but I feel he was'nt completly straight either. Complex ? No doubt. My take.
Historically and culturally, the concepts of "gay" and "straight", even "bi-sexual" are quite recent innovations and largely restricted to the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim world. Other societies recognise, or at least assume, that every human being has the potential to enjoy sex with someone of the same sex. And even in this society, it is far more common for men to dally with one another (even when their primary drive is towards women) in the right circumstances than the Establishment cares to admit. The plot of BBM is genuine; I know this both from numerous personal experiences and through anecdotal evidence. Classifying people according to their sexual preference is too easy and has little to do with reality. For Ennis, there is a mythical "queer" who bears a set of stereotypical traits and who fundamentally responds sexually to other men, but not to women. Ennis knows himself to be attracted to women and knows himself to be free of the stereotypical characteristics which identify a "queer". So his remark "I ain't queer" must be stated in order to absolve himself of any such identity; "This is a one-shot thing" suggests he intends to play around in the absence of any females (like masturbating when there's no sexual outlet available), but not make a habit of it thereafter. I've had numerous sexual experiences over the years with self-proclaimed "straight" men who were happy to roll in the hay with another fellow, so long as it was made clear that no-one else must know and that no negative label be applied to their identity. I know of so very, very many examples of this that I believe Annie Proulx revealed a deep truth about human practice in that short, simple story. Ennis is only human.
Historically and culturally, the concepts of "gay" and "straight", even "bi-sexual" are quite recent innovations and largely restricted to the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim world. Other societies recognise, or at least assume, that every human being has the potential to enjoy sex with someone of the same sex. And even in this society, it is far more common for men to dally with one another (even when their primary drive is towards women) in the right circumstances than the Establishment cares to admit. The plot of BBM is genuine; I know this both from numerous personal experiences and through anecdotal evidence. Classifying people according to their sexual preference is too easy and has little to do with reality. For Ennis, there is a mythical "queer" who bears a set of stereotypical traits and who fundamentally responds sexually to other men, but not to women. Ennis knows himself to be attracted to women and knows himself to be free of the stereotypical characteristics which identify a "queer". So his remark "I ain't queer" must be stated in order to absolve himself of any such identity; "This is a one-shot thing" suggests he intends to play around in the absence of any females (like masturbating when there's no sexual outlet available), but not make a habit of it thereafter. I've had numerous sexual experiences over the years with self-proclaimed "straight" men who were happy to roll in the hay with another fellow, so long as it was made clear that no-one else must know and that no negative label be applied to their identity. I know of so very, very many examples of this that I believe Annie Proulx revealed a deep truth about human practice in that short, simple story. Ennis is only human.
Historically and culturally, the concepts of "gay" and "straight", even "bi-sexual" are quite recent innovations and largely restricted to the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim world. Other societies recognise, or at least assume, that every human being has the potential to enjoy sex with someone of the same sex. And even in this society, it is far more common for men to dally with one another (even when their primary drive is towards women) in the right circumstances than the Establishment cares to admit. The plot of BBM is genuine; I know this both from numerous personal experiences and through anecdotal evidence. Classifying people according to their sexual preference is too easy and has little to do with reality. For Ennis, there is a mythical "queer" who bears a set of stereotypical traits and who fundamentally responds sexually to other men, but not to women. Ennis knows himself to be attracted to women and knows himself to be free of the stereotypical characteristics which identify a "queer". So his remark "I ain't queer" must be stated in order to absolve himself of any such identity; "This is a one-shot thing" suggests he intends to play around in the absence of any females (like masturbating when there's no sexual outlet available), but not make a habit of it thereafter. I've had numerous sexual experiences over the years with self-proclaimed "straight" men who were happy to roll in the hay with another fellow, so long as it was made clear that no-one else must know and that no negative label be applied to their identity. I know of so very, very many examples of this that I believe Annie Proulx revealed a deep truth about human practice in that short, simple story. Ennis is only human.
MS—All sorts of friends have been asking me as a so-called literary expert and I said the difference between the story and the film is that when I read the story I found myself in tears, and when I saw the film I found that the film had made me cry, there was some kind of movie sadness sauce, that somehow got pulled over the material, whereas the story is written in somewhat of a stoic way of these men, it’s not insisting that you feel anything in particular, and as a result, my emotions just leaked out of me.. it came as a real startlement to me.
AP–I am very happy to hear that. Because it means that the thing works, the way that I hoped it would work, that for the reader what’s inside is necessary to complete the story and feel it out, and put a meaning in it. The place was very important to me, too as I was writing. The place is always important to me, everything I write—you know I write about rural situations but «Brokeback Mountain» itself, the idea of using the mountain as what they call inside in science-fiction “ a wormhole” where two characters go in and they come out differently. This was the thing that I wanted to play with from the beginning and I think it worked.
MS—For me it’s just longing for love (AP—Oh yeah) that the story captures. There’s this huge sense that these men whatever lies they tell and refusals they make this love seems hardwired into them and is unmitigatable, unavoidable, unignorable…
AP—and inexpressible…
MS—and inexpressible.
AP—The other thing I wanted to mess with in this story to – the complex plurality of human sexuality, the unclear line that drifts from one pasture to the other, the back and forth, the interplay instead of this rigid constant “him-her”, “he-she”. It was interesting to me to put a lot of gray into this story and again account on readers to pull from their own lives and experience and thoughts what they knew about life and sex that contradicted the clear-cut pattern that’s given to us, the coloring book of life that we get when we’re little kids.
[...]
Classifying people according to their sexual preference is too easy and has little to do with reality.
[...]
I believe Annie Proulx revealed a deep truth about human practice in that short, simple story. Ennis is only human.
Wonderful words here everyone. Tip o' the hat to Thomas for transcribing AP, a BIG help all around. Did you do that yourself or find it on-line?
I'm focused on her specific interjection of the word "inexpressible" into the description of this love that the boys discover. My little Mac dashboard dictionary defines inexpressible as "too strong to be conveyed or described in words". How perfect. Especially for my hero Ennis, he couldn't hardly put two words together anyway and what Jack ignited in him was truly beyond his ability to verbally express. How frequently we see him tongue-tied, unable to convey to Jack what he's feeling inside. His emotions with Jack boiling over wanting to erupt, but they can't find the way out. Given his described "uncommonly quick reflexes", my imagination wants to believe that he was sumthin' to be with in that bedroll. What he couldn't express verbally he made up for physically.
::)
Sorry for bein' somewhat OT, but maybe "gay" is just too small a word to describe this, it just doesn't go far enough.
Wonderful words here everyone. Tip o' the hat to Thomas for transcribing AP, a BIG help all around. Did you do that yourself or find it on-line?
I'm focused on her specific interjection of the word "inexpressible" into the description of this love that the boys discover. My little Mac dashboard dictionary defines inexpressible as "too strong to be conveyed or described in words". How perfect. Especially for my hero Ennis, he couldn't hardly put two words together anyway and what Jack ignited in him was truly beyond his ability to verbally express. How frequently we see him tongue-tied, unable to convey to Jack what he's feeling inside. His emotions with Jack boiling over wanting to erupt, but they can't find the way out. Given his described "uncommonly quick reflexes", my imagination wants to believe that he was sumthin' to be with in that bedroll. What he couldn't express verbally he made up for physically.
::)
Sorry for bein' somewhat OT, but maybe "gay" is just too small a word to describe this, it just doesn't go far enough.
Maybe their sexuality is not important. There's an organic sense to their love, it was natural, but unexpected, like a flower growing in land deemed barren. We don't know how it grew, but there it is.
Just a thought
Wonderful words here everyone. Tip o' the hat to Thomas for transcribing AP, a BIG help all around. Did you do that yourself or find it on-line?
I'm focused on her specific interjection of the word "inexpressible" into the description of this love that the boys discover. My little Mac dashboard dictionary defines inexpressible as "too strong to be conveyed or described in words". How perfect. Especially for my hero Ennis, he couldn't hardly put two words together anyway and what Jack ignited in him was truly beyond his ability to verbally express. How frequently we see him tongue-tied, unable to convey to Jack what he's feeling inside. His emotions with Jack boiling over wanting to erupt, but they can't find the way out. Given his described "uncommonly quick reflexes", my imagination wants to believe that he was sumthin' to be with in that bedroll. What he couldn't express verbally he made up for physically.
::)
Sorry for bein' somewhat OT, but maybe "gay" is just too small a word to describe this, it just doesn't go far enough.
I believe we often confuse our ability to put a label on things, to name concepts, with the reality of the thing. Without getting philosophical and metaphysical, I believe Annie Proulx's grey area is her way of saying the limitation of the power of language to express the inexpressible.
Maybe their sexuality is not important. There's an organic sense to their love, it was natural, but unexpected, like a flower growing in land deemed barren. We don't know how it grew, but there it is.
Just a thought
Who knows for sure if they were straight, gay, or bi when they went up to the mountain. The film did not elaborate, so this is open for speculation, but we do know that when they came down , a life-altering experience had occured that caused them to question their human sexuality , how this can happen, and how it *fit in* to the world around them. My take on it.
lance, you certainly touch here some of the things I addressed in my last post.
And we should thank you for bringing this up, as it can only enrich our exchange of ideas. Agreement is not mandatory.
Agreed, that agreement is not mandatory or even necessary. Free discussion is the most enriching source of new understanding.
As you mentioned else where in response to others, a label is a necessary step towards limitations to begin to understand something. I agree with that, and also your statement that a rose is a rose, which allows the rose to be understood. The quotation on the atom is also poignant. These are all avenues of pursuit towards a greater understanding of reality. My only disagreement here is the mistaking of the label with the reality.
By your own assertions, a label is only useful in its ability to limit and set boundaries to our understanding of the world at large. If everything is called a rose, then no rose would smell so sweet. The more precise the label, the more useful it is. At the same time, the more precise the label, the smaller its applicable power in the idea space. Its own limitations make it inappropriate for those part of the universe outside of its supposed boundaries. In other words, the more useful a label, the smaller its applicability, and the larger the margin or tolerance when applied to approximations of ideas outside of its boundaries.
Gay is a label that is, as you pointed out, supposedly to replace the clinical homosexual. And that word was, if I recall from someone else, coined a century or two ago, to displace the less kind pederast. And of course, there are other nastier labels which I won't get into.
Is Ennis gay?
First of all, if the definition of gay is someone who is attracted to people of the same gender, then the question is to define this attraction. Ennis is attracted ONLY to Jack, not any other man. Is this considered gay? If so, then many men would be also considered gay. If not, then many ordinarily labelled "straight" can continue being straight. My point was the inexpressible, to use that word, quality of attraction (and this is different from sex) that Ennis had for Jack. It was love born of their time together on Brokeback Mountain. It would never be, if they did not have a summer of friendship, companionship, mutual respect before FNIT. For Ennis, he did not want anything else, he did not need anything else. For Ennis, Jack was friendship, companionship, respect all personified into one single human being who was fun to be with, not unlike Cassie.
Secondly, if the definition of gay is someone who is NOT attracted to people of the opposite gender, then the question is whether Ennis was EVER in love or attracted to Alma, or Cassie. How much of the absence of this attraction is required for Ennis to be gay? Can Ennis once felt attracted, or sometimes attracted and still be considered gay? My point was again the inexpressive quality of sexual attraction, which comes and goes. Can a person be gay, and not gay, and then gay again?
Finally, I was merely pointing out the limitations of "forcing" a label on something when it clearly, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, does not warrant a label. Ennis was Jack's love. Jack was Ennis' love. The two were lovers. Being gay has nothing to do with it, again, in my own personal humble opinion. If the two were of the opposite sex, and the reason for their un-fulfilled love was something equally unjust, for example, from different races, or more modern, from different planets, would the story be any different? Better yet, if Jack was a transvestite, or was transgender, would the story be any different? I say, no, because it is not about their sex, it is only about their love.
Jackster, for something that is INEXPRESSIBLE, we all sure spend a lot of time trying to express it! I think that is ironic. I, too, think the love between these two guys was not able to be put into words -- or into deeds, for that matter. This love just permeates the whole story from the get-go. It is part of everything Jack does or Ennis does. It colors them and their actions at all times and gives us lots to think and talk about. But, the essential thing is that it is indefinable. Words only limit it, and it is bigger than that. Try to describe a storm at sea, or a tornado when you are in its midst -- any work of nature that affects us. We find that words just fall short. And so it is with this wonderful work of nature between these two men. THEY didn't discuss it. They LIVED it. All WE can do is WITNESS it. And I dare to say we are all stronger for being part of this story.
Agreed, that agreement is not mandatory or even necessary. Free discussion is the most enriching source of new understanding.
As you mentioned else where in response to others, a label is a necessary step towards limitations to begin to understand something. I agree with that, and also your statement that a rose is a rose, which allows the rose to be understood. The quotation on the atom is also poignant. These are all avenues of pursuit towards a greater understanding of reality. My only disagreement here is the mistaking of the label with the reality.
By your own assertions, a label is only useful in its ability to limit and set boundaries to our understanding of the world at large. If everything is called a rose, then no rose would smell so sweet. The more precise the label, the more useful it is. At the same time, the more precise the label, the smaller its applicable power in the idea space. Its own limitations make it inappropriate for those part of the universe outside of its supposed boundaries. In other words, the more useful a label, the smaller its applicability, and the larger the margin or tolerance when applied to approximations of ideas outside of its boundaries.
Gay is a label that is, as you pointed out, supposedly to replace the clinical homosexual. And that word was, if I recall from someone else, coined a century or two ago, to displace the less kind pederast. And of course, there are other nastier labels which I won't get into.
Is Ennis gay?
First of all, if the definition of gay is someone who is attracted to people of the same gender, then the question is to define this attraction. Ennis is attracted ONLY to Jack, not any other man. Is this considered gay? If so, then many men would be also considered gay. If not, then many ordinarily labelled "straight" can continue being straight. My point was the inexpressible, to use that word, quality of attraction (and this is different from sex) that Ennis had for Jack. It was love born of their time together on Brokeback Mountain. It would never be, if they did not have a summer of friendship, companionship, mutual respect before FNIT. For Ennis, he did not want anything else, he did not need anything else. For Ennis, Jack was friendship, companionship, respect all personified into one single human being who was fun to be with, not unlike Cassie.
Secondly, if the definition of gay is someone who is NOT attracted to people of the opposite gender, then the question is whether Ennis was EVER in love or attracted to Alma, or Cassie. How much of the absence of this attraction is required for Ennis to be gay? Can Ennis once felt attracted, or sometimes attracted and still be considered gay? My point was again the inexpressive quality of sexual attraction, which comes and goes. Can a person be gay, and not gay, and then gay again?
Finally, I was merely pointing out the limitations of "forcing" a label on something when it clearly, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, does not warrant a label. Ennis was Jack's love. Jack was Ennis' love. The two were lovers. Being gay has nothing to do with it, again, in my own personal humble opinion. If the two were of the opposite sex, and the reason for their un-fulfilled love was something equally unjust, for example, from different races, or more modern, from different planets, would the story be any different? Better yet, if Jack was a transvestite, or was transgender, would the story be any different? I say, no, because it is not about their sex, it is only about their love.
Agreed, that agreement is not mandatory or even necessary. Free discussion is the most enriching source of new understanding.
As you mentioned else where in response to others, a label is a necessary step towards limitations to begin to understand something. I agree with that, and also your statement that a rose is a rose, which allows the rose to be understood. The quotation on the atom is also poignant. These are all avenues of pursuit towards a greater understanding of reality. My only disagreement here is the mistaking of the label with the reality.
By your own assertions, a label is only useful in its ability to limit and set boundaries to our understanding of the world at large. If everything is called a rose, then no rose would smell so sweet. The more precise the label, the more useful it is. At the same time, the more precise the label, the smaller its applicable power in the idea space. Its own limitations make it inappropriate for those part of the universe outside of its supposed boundaries. In other words, the more useful a label, the smaller its applicability, and the larger the margin or tolerance when applied to approximations of ideas outside of its boundaries.
Gay is a label that is, as you pointed out, supposedly to replace the clinical homosexual. And that word was, if I recall from someone else, coined a century or two ago, to displace the less kind pederast. And of course, there are other nastier labels which I won't get into.
Is Ennis gay?
First of all, if the definition of gay is someone who is attracted to people of the same gender, then the question is to define this attraction. Ennis is attracted ONLY to Jack, not any other man. Is this considered gay? If so, then many men would be also considered gay. If not, then many ordinarily labelled "straight" can continue being straight. My point was the inexpressible, to use that word, quality of attraction (and this is different from sex) that Ennis had for Jack. It was love born of their time together on Brokeback Mountain. It would never be, if they did not have a summer of friendship, companionship, mutual respect before FNIT. For Ennis, he did not want anything else, he did not need anything else. For Ennis, Jack was friendship, companionship, respect all personified into one single human being who was fun to be with, not unlike Cassie.
Secondly, if the definition of gay is someone who is NOT attracted to people of the opposite gender, then the question is whether Ennis was EVER in love or attracted to Alma, or Cassie. How much of the absence of this attraction is required for Ennis to be gay? Can Ennis once felt attracted, or sometimes attracted and still be considered gay? My point was again the inexpressive quality of sexual attraction, which comes and goes. Can a person be gay, and not gay, and then gay again?
Finally, I was merely pointing out the limitations of "forcing" a label on something when it clearly, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, does not warrant a label. Ennis was Jack's love. Jack was Ennis' love. The two were lovers. Being gay has nothing to do with it, again, in my own personal humble opinion. If the two were of the opposite sex, and the reason for their un-fulfilled love was something equally unjust, for example, from different races, or more modern, from different planets, would the story be any different? Better yet, if Jack was a transvestite, or was transgender, would the story be any different? I say, no, because it is not about their sex, it is only about their love.
It's a very difficult question. Both Ennis and Jack were able to have sexual relations with women, but did they love them like they did each other? Did they need them like they needed each other? . Did they feel completed by these women? Only in a sense of "going thru the motions" to appear normal for a closed-minded society's sake ,maybe but, I think not. Imo it seems to me they got with these women for reasons other than what really felt right to them ,evidenced by them being dropped by the wayside one by one in favor of the loving bond Jack and Ennis shared for 20 years.
I mean would Ennis really want to fix his marriage to Alma if he could? rather than go thru a divorce? Give up Jack? Though Jack never divorced Lureen, obviously, it was Ennis , another man ,he preferred. I never got the feeling that Ennis was deeply "in love" with Alma in any case ,or Jack "deeply in love" with Lureen.
In this society, lables are used to define a certain element in people, though this may not define a person completly, it, I feel is necessary to a certain extent. Again not to say that lables describe the make up of a human being as a whole but it is matters of a sexual nature that the film delves into. There are those clear tendencies for who one chooses to love. If your a man in this society, are attracted to men only, sleep with men only, prefer the company of men socially, or fall in love with men only, then the lable "gay" or "homosexual" applies based on these facts, "Homosexual", being a more clinical term, but I won't pretend to know where the term "gay" originates from, perhaps some one can fill me in, but , both terms are within the realm of one's sexuality. Brokeback Mountain just happens to deal with the sexuality between two men within that "gray area" Yes, they were just two cowboys in love , but the subject matter is what it was , so to me personally ,it is relevent discussion for all the millions of Ennises and Jacks out there still struggling with this question. If I'm wrong, please inform, I only seek to learn...Thanx.
It's a very difficult question. Both Ennis and Jack were able to have sexual relations with women, but did they love them like they did each other? Did they need them like they needed each other? . Did they feel completed by these women? Only in a sense of "going thru the motions" to appear normal for a closed-minded society's sake ,maybe but, I think not. Imo it seems to me they got with these women for reasons other than what really felt right to them ,evidenced by them being dropped by the wayside one by one in favor of the loving bond Jack and Ennis shared for 20 years.
I mean would Ennis really want to fix his marriage to Alma if he could? rather than go thru a divorce? Give up Jack? Though Jack never divorced Lureen, obviously, it was Ennis , another man ,he preferred. I never got the feeling that Ennis was deeply "in love" with Alma in any case ,or Jack "deeply in love" with Lureen.
In this society, lables are used to define a certain element in people, though this may not define a person completly, it, I feel is necessary to a certain extent. Again not to say that lables describe the make up of a human being as a whole but it is matters of a sexual nature that the film delves into. There are those clear tendencies for who one chooses to love. If your a man in this society, are attracted to men only, sleep with men only, prefer the company of men socially, or fall in love with men only, then the lable "gay" or "homosexual" applies based on these facts, "Homosexual", being a more clinical term, but I won't pretend to know where the term "gay" originates from, perhaps some one can fill me in, but , both terms are within the realm of one's sexuality. Brokeback Mountain just happens to deal with the sexuality between two men within that "gray area" Yes, they were just two cowboys in love , but the subject matter is what it was , so to me personally ,it is relevent discussion for all the millions of Ennises and Jacks out there still struggling with this question. If I'm wrong, please inform, I only seek to learn...Thanx.
It is true that the label should not be taken to represent thw whole realiry. But that is why we have words in a language, no? Take for example the word "man" -- it specifically defines the male gender. But when we say "Ennis is a man", do we necessarily limit our understanding of Ennis in terms of just the male genitalia? Certainly not. THis is what I mean by the whole world of meanings and connotations. We see the term "man" through layers of history, art, aesthetics, attributes, and experience, and not just in terms of gender.
But I understand what you mean here. Many people do tend to reduce terms rather simplistically at times.
Again, here I object to the claim that Ennis was only attracted to Jack. Taking into account Proulx's statements, I do think the answer is: we really don't know. Just because he was not shown to play around with other men as Jack was does not mean that he was not attracted to them. This, like so many other things in the story and the film, are left intentionally ambiguous.
This really does not do justice to the complexities of the gay experience. For example, I had an elderly friend who pretty much lived out his life marrying 2 women and having children. It was only late in life that he confessed openly that he had lived a lie, and that he was exclusively attracted to men. Just because he was capable of showing affection and love to women and to have sex with them didn't mean that he was not gay. He pretended all his life, and he said that it was necessary, given the social pressures that were ranged against him.
I should add that even after he confessed this to his second wife, they remained married and agreed on certain ground rules -- and stayed happily married up until his death a few years ago.
In this statement, I do not say that bisexuality is impossible. I only give this example to show how far people will go to hide their true nature.
And lastly, remember that love and affection go beyond sexual preference. My recently deceased friend Robert numbered 2 women as the people closest to him. One was the executor of his will when he died -- he ignored all his surviving family members. This is an example of love without the veneer of sexual desire between a gay man and a straight woman. It is quite common.
We can agree to disagree. :) For me, a label is never forced. It is given to bring out certain ideas that one feels embody the individual. That label is never meant to represent the individual in his/her entirety, as I have discussed above.
Labels were brought to us in this story "I'm not queer", there it is. Ennis major problem was dealing with the label, and his feelings. No matter how we feel about labels, it was the center of Jack and Ennis's story. The love they had for each other, but what do you call it?
For them, our use of the word "love" to label what went on between Ennis and Jack is absolutely perverse.
Thanx L. Cowboy, and I do understand what you are saying. Ennis nor Jack fell into the set of facts I listed, but don't you feel that labling does not necessarily have to have negative connotations? Certainly there is a large segment of society that isists on perpetuating a negative stereotpye of the "gay" lable, But I feel a large part of the appeal of Brokeback Mountain seemed to be it's non-stereotypical portrayal of homosexuality . Many Ennis's and Jacks', their mothers,fathers, brothers, sisters, or even wives and husbands,...etc.. were drawn to this film, not necessarily out of fear of being labled, but saw a small piece of their own personal selves wrapped up in Jack or Ennis's exploration into their "orientation". A very human film. If every parent taught their child to ignore the "lables" and get to know the real person, the world would be a much better place in which to live. We all have to live in this screwed up world , but tolerence is the only key to lessen the blows, no matter what lable we wear.
Your "gift" of expression /communication is under-estimated by you my friend, Wether you presume to dare or not I learn from your perpectives and opinions, I do. Agreed ,we may no agree on everything ,echoing Tpe's sentiment ,but that's ok I luv ya anyway. Here's to you cowboy. :cr)
Labels were brought to us in this story "I'm not queer", there it is. Ennis major problem was dealing with the label, and his feelings. No matter how we feel about labels, it was the center of Jack and Ennis's story. The love they had for each other, but what do you call it? Jack and Ennis themselves had to deal with labels.
The gray area that Annie Proulx speaks of is, I believe, this range of human sexuality that goes from those who are 100% straight to those who are 100% gay, and then the many who are in between, not necessarily loving men and women at the same time, but perhaps different individuals depending on circumstances. I guess my point has been that human sexuality is much more complex than simply who is sleeping with whom.I have to agree with your whole post but have quoted and bolded some parts of it that I feel could help in understanding ennis's sexuality.
If Ennis was asked the question, are you gay? We should respect whatever answer he gives because that is who he is to his own mind. And if his behavior proves otherwise, we can have issue with convincing him of his erroneous view of himself. But, as far as the short story, and the movie is concerned, Ennis is more asexual than gay or bisexual or any other sexual label. To me, Ennis is about love and friendship. Sex was a result of the love and friendship, not the other way around.
I do think it really highlighted a common fear that many gay men today still wrestle with -- coming to terms with their own sexual identity in the light of what society has conditioned them to think of as acceptable or unacceptable. I suspect that in that scene, Ennis himself would have denied that it was love, even though he probably was in love with Jack at that point.
So the dilemna here goes even beyond "gay" as a label. Ennis never said "I LOVE you" to Jack in any of the scenes. He was afraid of the word "love" itself.
After all. "love" itself is a label. I can see some people denying that Ennis was ever truly in love with Jack. I know that most of us will say they were in love, but do understand that the meanings and connotations of such a love can only be possible between a man and a woman for so many millions of people in the world today.
For them, our use of the word "love" to label what went on between Ennis and Jack is absolutely perverse.
You see that my argument here echoes what I have tried to say about the label "gay".
Am hoping this isn't too off-beat of a post. Anyway, the topic is, "was ennis gay?" and it is one of the most popular and enduring topics
on this, and other forums. You get your different sides of the issue showing up, and then, every single time, the discussion ends up on the issue
of....labels. It's as if we're going around in circles. It might help, if only a little, if we were careful to use "definitions", instead of "labels".
They're pretty closely related, true, but trying for definitions, while difficult, does avoid the toxicity and uproar over labels.
I do thank Lamusica for spotting what I had said about science moving towards fairly sturdy definitions derived from physiological responses,
and also thank tpe, if I understand him correctly, for pointing to the further issue-the labels may not be the problem so much as the responses
to those labels. Forgive me, Thomas, if I got that wrong.
Anyway-just 2 thoughts. First, I am always amazed at the criminals, and creeps, that (and I know this is crazy) seem to expect their behavior
to be part of the human spectrum of activity--after all, they're not...GAY. It's as if all these cops and robbers types are all playing a game,
with almost equal respect, so long as they're not...gay. Where do I get this lunacy from? Watching the reactions between police and the crooks.
It's like-an eco-system of mutual respect. Introduce "gay" and they are---outta there. I have noticed, criminals get treated with grudging
respect---but gays....get bashed or create stupefaction. I see the police going after gangs, but its like....a game between 2 groups, and then
you all can see police near gay bars----they are extremely uncomfortable. Makes me wonder if a significant amount of abuse and crime is a
continuation of kid's games, taken to a new level, acceptable, if you're not gay. Crime & law-enforcement-both childhood games. That's a wild
thought, or impression, but it has crossed my mind. You can, for some types, be anything.....so long as you're inside the circle....not gay.
And the second thought- if this issue is still with us....was ennis gay?...doesn't that at least establish a fundamental fact.....that the issue
isn't settled? I love and appreciate all these posts, but had to point out the obvious--it's a worthy subject, but that it even comes up as
a question, should be understood as very significant.
Why can't we simply accept Ennis as Ennis, and Jack as Jack, each person as an individual who loves another individual, regardless of sex or gender, or whatever? Why is it important to label one person gay or bisexual?I think all of us here can accept Ennis as Ennis and Jack as Jack without labels but we wish it could be this easy for everyone else.
There is no right or wrong answer to this question. Just different meanings.
And look at what the labels got them...
They would have been far happier if the both ignored the labels and lived the love they shared.
The problem with Ennis' "I ain't queer' was that he was misled by those who used the label to believe that there was anything wrong with a man loving a man. If labels got them into trouble, why would we want to perpetuate them? They (labels applied to individuals) should be thrown into the dustbin of history along with all the other fallacies like the earth is flat, etc.
The reason I fight against the use of labels on individuals is precisely the limitations each label has in describing a person. The statement or assertion that 'Ennis is gay' has a truth value of perhaps 20%. 'Ennis is straight' is equally misleading, and has a truth value that is also very low. Even the ambiguous 'Ennis is bisexual' is not satisfactory, either. There is no single label that satisfactorily describe Ennis' love for Jack. Without this most important aspect of Ennis, no label is adequate.
Similarly, historians often refer to Alexander as bisexual because of his love for Hephaestion. But was he really, or was he gay?
The gray area that Annie Proulx speaks of is, I believe, this range of human sexuality that goes from those who are 100% straight to those who are 100% gay, and then the many who are in between, not necessarily loving men and women at the same time, but perhaps different individuals depending on circumstances. I guess my point has been that human sexuality is much more complex than simply who is sleeping with whom.
I agree that putting away labels will help make the world a better place. I think this means we need to put away the power of labels by making them meaningless, as far as application to an individual is concerned. It is fine to speak of the gay community, the gay games, etc. But a single individual in the community, paradoxically, is more complex than the community, and the label gay becomes too small to describe the person properly. To use it indiscriminately is to give it more power than it should have, IMHO.
If Ennis was asked the question, are you gay? We should respect whatever answer he gives because that is who he is to his own mind. And if his behavior proves otherwise, we can have issue with convincing him of his erroneous view of himself. But, as far as the short story, and the movie is concerned, Ennis is more asexual than gay or bisexual or any other sexual label. To me, Ennis is about love and friendship. Sex was a result of the love and friendship, not the other way around.
What you say is true, but in this story gay bashing was all too real, and real very much so for Ennis, that he believes his father participated in it, how do you think this affected him? I believe when he made the statement I'm not queer, is what I believe he thought of himself but this is when this split in him began. We talk about how they lived on fringes of society, but wanting so much to be part of it. So what kept them on Brokeback Mountain? They liked the scenery? No but a little word "queer", this word for Ennis meant death, thanks to dear old dad. The beauty of their love, was confined to one place, but never stopped Ennis loving Jack or kept him away from Jack. For me his love became totally internalized, his love so deep , so big, erupting at moments when he couldn't contain it. When they left the mountain that first summer, and he punches Jack, when he thought he might not see again,The Thanksgiving scene, Alma hit at the very heart of him, and who he was, the final confrontation, when Jack utters "I wish I knew how to quit you", which brings Ennis to his knees.
"Queer" the word, was the deadly weapon, and kept them on that mountain. We can argue whether Ennis was "Gay" or not till the cows come home, and that OK. But can love supersede the fear ?
Ennis didn't understand he was loved until it was too late, and through his daughter he did understand it, because if she within one year knew the man she going to married loved her, he realized that Jack was telling him the same thing for the past twenty years.
If there is on thing I've learned from this is how we, ourselves have to overcome our own fears, prejudices which keeps us trap on our own prison.
I hope I making sense.
I think all of us here can accept Ennis as Ennis and Jack as Jack without labels but we wish it could be this easy for everyone else.
tpe, I agree with the bolded and colored red section. It is the central theme of the movie, that love was denied, both as a result of social pressure, and Ennis' own internalized social pressure.
I also agree that even today there are millions of people who would consider love between same sexes as perverse. But isn't that a different label? As I mentioned in response to aintfoolin, it is not the label itself that I object to. It is the application of the label to an individual, when it is highly approximate. It is like calling a rose a flower, and expect that label to carry significant meaning or power of description. It is too generic, and too limited to convey the beauty and specialness of a rose, especially a particularly lovely rose at the edge of bloom. It is the same to same that a person is gay, and expect that label to fully describe the person. Ennis is gay, as far as his love for Jack is concerned, but it is not the same as the gay love, as between Jack and the Mexican hustlers, or even the gay love between Jack and Randall, or the many others, when he rode more than bulls during the four years after Brokeback Mountain. The statement Jack is gay, perhaps, has a higher truth value, than Ennis is gay. When is it acceptable to apply the label? I am certain everyone will have their own opinion on this, and as already mentioned, it is not required or necessary to achieve agreement. Just my two cents worth when it comes to labels, I am against them sticking to people, 100%. People who wants to apply the label to themselves, that's a different story...
Similarly, historians often refer to Alexander as bisexual because of his love for Hephaestion. But was he really, or was he gay?
I don't often get access to the internet and when I do it's brief, so I haven't had an oportunity to read through this thread in depth. However, it made me recall an account some years ago of a meeting between the Mayor of Montreal and the President of Haiti. The President asked the mayor just what percentage of Montreal's population is black. "About 10%" was the reply. Then the president responded with, "That's just the same as Haiti; 10% of our population is black." Of course, it makes sense when you consider that in Montreal a person of mixed ancestry is classed as "black"; in Haiti, they are regarded as "white". In each case the exception to the majority. This in turn reminded me of the British Liberal politician, with a secure marriage and several children, who was once asked if he was "gay". He said he wasn't. Some time later, a tabloid newspaper attacked him for lying as they'd uncovered an incident in his youth in which he'd had sex with another fellow. That, according to them, meant that he is "gay" and therefore dishonest. I know many men who are sexually active with women but, do to circumstances or the fate of experience, have had a sexual encounter - even a relationship - with another male. But, as that's not their standard practice, they would honestly feel odd being called "gay". We would not out an openly "gay" man as "straight" because he had a sexual experience or two with a woman. I have known many "Ennis" types in my lifetime; I have a very deep relationship with one now. He sees an attractive woman and is sexually aroused; an attractive man and he feels challenged. Nevertheless, he has indulged in sexual horseplay with another male while in the army and has had a loving relationship with me for many years; occasionally physically expressed. He gets extremely annoyed if someone refers to him as "gay"; it seems limiting and quite inappropriate. When Ennis said, "You know I ain't queer," he was stating his own feeling and will I respect him for it. To him it is a loaded term and its implications seem quite inappropriate to the way he feels about himself.
It can be argued ad infinitum whether or not this proves Ennis to be gay. But I claim that is certainly sufficient to prove that he wasn't straight.So he wasn't straight because of his relationship with Jack but possibly not gay because Jack was the only male as far as we know he was attracted to :s)
So he wasn't straight because of his relationship with Jack but possibly not gay because Jack was the only male as far as we know he was attracted to :s)
I guess it comes down to sexual identity as opposed to sexual orientation.
Ennis identified as straight but this was not entirely his true sexual orientation as we know and if he had never met Jack would these feelings of homosexuality ever have come to light or would they have remained suppressed.
I guess it comes down to sexual identity as opposed to sexual orientation.
Ennis identified as straight but this was not entirely his true sexual orientation as we know and if he had never met Jack would these feelings of homosexuality ever have come to light or would they have remained suppressed.
This is interesting.
I would say that Ennis was already aware of his feelings for other men, he just wasn't experienced (Yes, a virgin) and carrying around with him the greatest deterrent to do anything about it by way of his daddy. I think the portrayal of Ennis in the movie in the early scenes where he glances tellingly at Jack more than once tells us that as far as the director was concerned, Ennis had all that it took. Glad to say that in Jack he met the key to his locked heart and emotions but if he hadn't have met Jack, then he may well have gone through life a seriously closeted (even more so) and who knows, virgin window shopper.
To suppress something requires the knowledge and acceptance of it's existence... coming to light suggests an unawareness in the first place. Like I say, very interesting.
I don't often get access to the internet and when I do it's brief, so I haven't had an oportunity to read through this thread in depth. However, it made me recall an account some years ago of a meeting between the Mayor of Montreal and the President of Haiti. The President asked the mayor just what percentage of Montreal's population is black. "About 10%" was the reply. Then the president responded with, "That's just the same as Haiti; 10% of our population is black." Of course, it makes sense when you consider that in Montreal a person of mixed ancestry is classed as "black"; in Haiti, they are regarded as "white". In each case the exception to the majority. This in turn reminded me of the British Liberal politician, with a secure marriage and several children, who was once asked if he was "gay". He said he wasn't. Some time later, a tabloid newspaper attacked him for lying as they'd uncovered an incident in his youth in which he'd had sex with another fellow. That, according to them, meant that he is "gay" and therefore dishonest. I know many men who are sexually active with women but, do to circumstances or the fate of experience, have had a sexual encounter - even a relationship - with another male. But, as that's not their standard practice, they would honestly feel odd being called "gay". We would not out an openly "gay" man as "straight" because he had a sexual experience or two with a woman. I have known many "Ennis" types in my lifetime; I have a very deep relationship with one now. He sees an attractive woman and is sexually aroused; an attractive man and he feels challenged. Nevertheless, he has indulged in sexual horseplay with another male while in the army and has had a loving relationship with me for many years; occasionally physically expressed. He gets extremely annoyed if someone refers to him as "gay"; it seems limiting and quite inappropriate. When Ennis said, "You know I ain't queer," he was stating his own feeling and will I respect him for it. To him it is a loaded term and its implications seem quite inappropriate to the way he feels about himself.
You are always welcome here, lachlan, whenever you find the time. :)
All the studies in the late 20th century are careful to distinguish between whether a male is gay or had a homosexual experience. In all these studies, it is the orientation that matters the most.
[...]
Now, let us go back to Ennis. It is NOT that important whether or not he had sexual relationships with only one MALE and had multiple relationships with females. From what we have just discussed, this proves nothing. The pertinent question is that who did he truly love and connect with. The answer is obvious: he loved Jack.
It can be argued ad infinitum whether or not this proves Ennis to be gay. But I claim that this certainly is enough to prove that he wasn't straight.
Well, like a moth to the flame, can't seem to resist posting here. It's so difficult of an issue and am, lately, trying avoid the controversial stuff, but, can't seem to follow through.
Anyway, tpe, I hope eventually most people will see, as you and others do, that some sexual activity, same-gender, is not necessarily defining. Depends on the circumstances. You've gone on, though, to underline that Ennis loved Jack, and placed great relevance to that, as opposed to the sexuality. And rightly so. You can get around something 2 guys do, say, in prison, or in adolescent experimenting, but when the issue of love comes up, that's a big wall to get over.
Am willing to change my own views, if I ever have no way to sustain them. But I think I could try to point out that the love issue can be explained in the same way as the sexual issue......it was not generic. I don't see Ennis as being able to love any other male than Jack, just
as I don't see him as capable of having same-gender sex with anyone else but Jack. And also, when Jack broke down those walls, it would seem to me, were Ennis gay or bi-, the walls having been brought down, the expected generic interest in other males should have been there,
and they never showed up. It was always, only Jack, and neither the SS nor film show any movement to generic interest, which would have to be there. Shows up in Jack, yes. Not a trace, in Ennis. (which is maybe why there's no huge interest in a Was Jack Gay? thread).
Also, would like to say, Lachlan's posts rang a bell. Twice, I have posted here about an infrequent sub-group of straight guys that I have run into, and then deleted those posts as too personal (although BabyTammy caught one of them before I deleted and wanted it back).
Ran into about 5 of them and noted around 25 characteristics they had in common. That's a lot, and means those critters I've nicknamed "Boxers", after the boxing sport, do exist as mathematical probability would not allow so much in common. They are straight, and seem to
be vulnerable to one and only one male, and have no interest in any other males. And they do well with women. So I wondered if Lachlan had run into one of these "Boxers". Ennis had about 80% of those personality traits, so that was in my post.
Anyway, back to the question. Tpe, and others, have rejected the concept that any same-gender activity and you then are no longer straight.
He went further with the obvious further development, of love. He has said before the issue can never really be settled and the best we can do is explore and I am certain that is the best answer of all. Did want, however, to note---whether love or sex, when the walls came down, Ennis had zero generic interest past Jack and THAT is something that is a driving force, not only in this issue, but in the further issue of, just how great was this love? That great? To break every rule? It is then not labels were dealing with, but that roaring train at the start of the film, a force powerful enough to smash through anything in its way.
Tony, you are so very astute about Ennis's feelings for Jack and only Jack. I'm not sure if this puts Ennis into any particularly named category ( and don't really care), but it certainly describes Ennis. As you say, there is nothing generic about Ennis's feelings toward this one and only man. Personally, I think this is the big difference between Jack and Ennis, and the main reason I have always maintained that Ennis is not gay in the sense of prefering man/man love exclusively. I like your term "generic" to differentiate between Ennis's and Jack's sexual identities. That's a clean and clear word that sums up Jack so very well. Jack wanted/needed same sex activitiy ( whether sex or love) and actively went after it. Ennis, however, was interested in only Jack. This is also why I maintain that the friendship came first with Ennis, then the physical possibilities. Jack answered the need Ennis had for intimacy with another human being first; then he answered the need for a physical partner. Wonderful discussion once again, Tony.
Well, here goes another attempt to get past my reluctance to describe something I encountered in my life that may have some relevance
to Ennis' sexuality. I had posted, twice before, about a sub-group of males that I nicknamed "Boxers" and then deleted them. BabyTammy
caught one of them and urged me to reconsider. I will try, again, because I think there's several of you that might be interested.
I have had 5 affairs, over the years, that did not make sense, as the guys were straight, and had zero interest in other males. Since they,
er...,focused on my own relief, they were difficult to fend off. But why I deleted was the strong resentment towards me that these relationships
provoked. My gay friends were stupefied, and some of them deeply disturbed by their definitions not holding up. And gay-tolerant women
were very threatened, it seemed, by the existence of this sub-group.
I was very confused by the similarities of these guys, in personality traits, that I began listing them, and quit counting, at 25 shared traits.
Lance, and Ayashae, with their scientific backgrounds, might understand better that the mathematical improbability means---these critters,
this sub-group, do exist. But another way of explaining is: How many people prefer the color blue? A limited number. How many prefer blue and
tennis is their favorite sport? Narrows it down further. Narrow down by 25 traits, and you've got ssomething not random but, a "type".
Am doing this in 2 posts. The one immediately following will list some of those traits and compare them to Ennis. In the interest of fairness,
I have not skewed them towards those that show up in Ennis. If nothing else, I hope these 2 posts are considered neutral, with regard to
the "label" issue and only an additional piece of experience that may, or may not relate to Ennis, as you see fit.
Here are the characteristics of the group, referred to, above, as "Boxers" and whether Ennis fit the profile.
1 ) are the last person in the room you would consider as possibly having same-gender sex. A kind of casual virility, not posed, or over-done---very natural and inspiring confidence in other males. Ennis-very much along these lines 2 ) get along well with other men, but are basically loners, and have no close male friends. Ennis- Bullseye 3 ) Very non-verbal. Takes a crowbar to get any words out of them Ennis- dead-on bullseye 4 ) Ok with, but not really into competing in team sports. Good at individual sports (track, swimming, martial arts, boxing), from which I came up with the nickname-Boxer Ennis- unclear. Good at riding horses, but no real info here 5 ) do not identify themselves as gay, and, uh....by their awkwardness prove their inexperience. Have zero interest in other males and, further, find that thought repulsive. Ennis-we do know, he showed no interest in anyone but Jack 6 ) have an unexpected heroic streak. These are the guys who suddenly get tough, in a crisis. One was the most highly decorated war hero from my city. Ennis-very heroic with the bullies at the 4th of July incident 7 ) function very well with women, but usually end up as good husbands on the 2nd or 3rd try, and then it's for a lifetime. Ennis-can't easily compare, although he tried to be a good husband 8 ) an unusual simplicity in expecting day-to-day transactions being fair. Greatly resent being stolen from, or being used, financially and kept money issues out of the relationship. Ennis-nothing here, except he did not want a loan from Jack 9 ) unusually hygienic Ennis- unknown 10 ) need affection, but never kissing on the mouth Ennis- SNIT says ---the opposite 11 )derive a sense of power by providing relief, and prefer being a bottom dude Ennis---the opposite, from what we know 12 ) very controlling as to when sex occurs. I ended that last relationship, calling it "drive-by sex" Ennis- this was the central problem. He set up the schedule.
That's enough. The other traits, 25, and counting, have a much higher corelation to Ennis, but the above are primary traits. The best I could make of Boxers was that they were haunted by loneliness, found in me someone they felt they could trust, looked for an extremely close friendship, and then saw that the way to enforce that friendship was by a sexual affair. The key word is "enforcing". It was important to them that we stayed on close terms.
I regret the length of these posts, and, trust me, I regret their unusual nature (which is why I deleted them before). But there are several of you that might find this strange sub-group of interest. And, please---am not trying to bolster the Ennis was straight theory. But this might
explain why I have tilted in that direction. I follow, absolutely, tpe's saying the issue can never be finally settled and maybe shouldn't be.
And also Heath Ledger's remark that he hoped BBM raised more questions, rather than giving a definitive answer.
If I'm road-kill again, from these posts, oh,well.... BabyTammy asked me to try again, so did Lance, and so I did.
The emoticon on trait #8 was not from me. Probably a moderator on their 3rd martini.No, it ain't the moderator. It's the cool emoticon 8 ) make sure there is no space between 8 and the paranthesis. 8)
Once again, Tony, you have made your point very well. IF we need to categorize people's sexuality, and IF we have to use labels, yours certainly make sense and Ennis certainly fits the Boxer's description. I'm sure you find it hard to share some of the more personal parts of your own history, but they do help clarify your thoughts, and thus, help others to understand your very astute deductions.
I do not intend to change the topic, but I just have to say ONE thing about labels -- something I have avoided commenting upon, but just can't keep my mouth shut any longer. You touched upon this when you discussed the future which will further and further delineate everyone by narrowing all the definitions. Historically, it is labels that have ruled the day: one drop of Jewish blood got you the concentration camp and death; one drop of Negroid blood got you enslaved; one drop of holy water saved your soul while everyone went to hell, etc. As horrific as these things were, they were real and those who subscribed to them were the real monsters on this earth. Can a label ever be a good thing? Perhaps when stratefying species or classifying blood types, etc. But labels that serve to box in certain individuals remain as deadly today as they ever were, and they frighten me in a way nothing else can. I know some people feel the need to, in their own mind, at least, pinpoint Ennis's sexuality for once and for all, but I wonder why there is that need? What makes human beings think they need to know everything and have the right to injure others in their search? Oh, well, just another rant!
Oh, gosh-am having trouble keeping myself from multiple-posting. We're due a snowstorm here in Norfolk, this evening, and it's got me jittery,
in case it's real bad and the power goes out.
Lamusica, back to labels. Whether we believe in the Old Testament or not, it is interesting that the Lord had the animals brought before
Adam for him to name, or, if you will, label. This spoke to the freedom he granted Adam, but also shows that we have an inherent need to
classify, or label. The same Lord refused, Himself, to be labelled, when Moses asked Him His name, skirting the issue by saying I am, Who is.
So, I do well understand your pointing at labels as one source of the troubles, but, myself, want there to be no set-in-stone labels where
that is not called for and denies the fluidity of the human experience. And, much further, where labels or categories are definable, I would
move to the fighting ground of why a particular group, category, or label, where it might apply, must be oppressed or provoke evil.
Labels, for me, then, are a trouble ground when they are arbitrary, inflexible, and deny the human tendency to be multi-faceted. They are
always going to be there. In this thread, then, am not seeing any threat from our attempting to explore Ennis or even, each of us come to
a label or definition with which we are comfortable. I like, on the one hand, the search for definition. On the other hand, like you, and most
of the others, I see trouble in fast and loose categorizing, and also know, we have to de-toxify any labels, as they'll never go away. They are
part of how we think. Aintfoolin has done an excellent job of balancing there. that categories may well exist, and then saying, it's still OK.
That's where I am. Gotta go get some food before the snow starts, and I hope my multiple posts aren't annoying the others.
Lance, I knew you would come through for me, accept the information as reasonable enough, and add in some useful observations. And I am very sorry for your lost love. In my case, I miss the Boxers....as friends, as I have a strong male tribal need for friendship with other males without reference to sex.
Lamusica, am so very gratified that you, too, see the eventual problem of our being ever more pegged by scientific tests that are emerging. You made reference to those extreme times in history, when just one part of oneself being related to a group being battered or killed, made you subject to those same extremes. There is an historic battle, ongoing, to find out why we can, as human beings, be so oppressive on a massive scale. And the humanities, in college, are where we are lagging. Maybe because they can't find the courage to study the grotesque. We need
to know WHY the prison guards at Auschwitz went home to their wives and felt sorry...for THEMSELVES!!!! We've got to learn the equations created by the human mind that can allow this, and then---disrupt them.
Many abusive people have a hidden equation that THEY are the victim. Disrupt that, and their ability to justify causing pain is undermined. I'm interested, Lamusica, more than you can ever know, in finding out the why. Until then, we have to do as you do, and as the film BBM does,
ask questions and promote tolerance, and resist co-operating with the uglies of the world.
But the matter of labels....I do leave that to be settled by the rest of you. Just know that the goodness of your heart is a joy to me.
Tony, Lance-- I realize a true mark of human intelligence is to accurately categorize and define our surroundings -- to constantly hone in closer and closer to the defining essence that captures the difference between one thing and another. (Thus the Miller's Analogy Test many of us have taken somewhere along the way.) I have no trouble with insisting on the pinpointed definition of everything, so long as those definitions do not LIMIT the thing defined, thus harming it in some way. I really have no trouble with brokies trying to define Ennis's sexuality because I know HERE it will make no difference. HERE no one will judge, shun, hate, etc. But, in the world at large, that is not true. The labelization of anything is potentially damaging,IMHO. As I said earlier, of course we have to categorize what is around us in order to understand the universe and our place in it. But we have to be eternally vigilant to never let these labels put anyone into a situation where he is made to appear LESS.
Lance, your idea about a thread on the nature of evil is a good one!
I'll agree with Christie and tpe on that -- it does seem to bring out strong reactions. I base that on various on-board and off-board conversations I've been part of where any notion of Ennis being gay -- or not gay -- has launched some sharp debate.
Why is this?
I do think some people just enjoy a raucous debate, and this is the perfect topic for BBM'ers. Strong arguments can be made both ways, and it's a central point of the story. So the ground is fertile.
A second reason is in the way one defines "gay". To some people, when they speak of Ennis as "gay" they are speaking of Ennis' having a core desire of intimacy primarily directed toward men. Perhaps this was stunted greatly by internal homophobia, confusion and denial, but nevertheless they see it as there. Hence Ennis is gay. Others see the word "gay" as a more involved, complex tag that includes much more than that, including a sense of identity, a particular sensibility, even a way of life. Hence Ennis was a million miles away from this definition of "gay". This difference has been behind more than one "was Ennis gay?" debate. And clearly if you think of "gay" as the second, it is probably frustrating to see so many people using "gay" to describe our boy.
Finally I do think there are deeper undercurrents that influence some people to one degree or another. From some Ennis-is-gay people I've occasionally gotten the vibe that it is important to them for Ennis to be gay. Having someone so conventionally masculine "on their team" is an attractive aspect to the story. Making Ennis straight lessens the "gay" of this ground-breaking gay love story. Kind of like finding out that the beloved Asian detective Charlie Chan wasn't even played by an Asian actor. A possible, deeper subcontext could be that gay Ennis soothes self-doubts that gay men have about their own masculinity.
For those on the "Ennis is straight" side I've sometimes sensed strong notions that making Ennis gay cheapens the story. That a straight Ennis is important to validate the incredible power of love overwhelming even innate sexual orientation. If Ennis and Jack are just a couple of gay guys, it's just another love story with obstacles. I knew someone who even felt it cheapened the power love itself (as shown in the story) if they were both gay. (He did not imply or believe that gay love is less than straight love, but that Ennis being straight added a critical dimension to the story.) A deeper subcontext could be that straight Ennis appeals to the notion that the power of pure love can make a straight man fall in love with a gay man.
No, I'm not saying that these are the true motivations behind people on the two sides of the argument. But as the issue has come up in debate over the past month, I do think some of the heat on this topic came from these competing ideas, each with its own attraction.
For the record, I do NOT believe Ennis is gay or straight.
I believe Ennis is a unique individual with a unique and troubled past who found love and completion in a gay man named Jack, who is also a unique individual with unique and troubled past.
Ennis and Jack were soul mates, not gay, not straight, just plain loving souls.
This just a thought of mine, and sorry if I upset anyone.I am sure you won't upset anyone, we are all here putting our thoughts forward to a question that doesn't have any right or wrong answer but it is making a great discussion.
I am sure you won't upset anyone, we are all here putting our thoughts forward to a question that doesn't have any right or wrong answer but it is making a great discussion.
I believe Ennis is a unique individual with a unique and troubled past who found love and completion in a gay man named Jack, who is also a unique individual with unique and troubled past.I think almost everything has been said about this question;so I,who hasn´t been very active these last days for technical problems-with my computer,not with me... ;D -am afraid I'm not going to add anything important to it.I've always thought,however,that we need words to define things,persons,animals...but,what about personal and private feelings?Until what point can we use some simple words to define it?.I don't like to put human beings into stanch departments with a label above that separates us according to our tendencies or way of living. That goes beyond semantical reasons,far beyond.-I don't know if I'm explaining well;not even I know if I'm explaining... ~) -.
Ennis and Jack were soul mates, not gay, not straight, just plain loving souls.
I don't mean this comment to be off=topic, but, as far as the Oscars go, I no longer care. No one who votes on the Oscars takes the time to watch and analyze any film as we have done here on this forum. In fact, many people who vote actually do NOT watch the films in contention. This became clear to me when I saw two women "stars" who are on the Oscar voters' list say, on LIVE TC, that they had NOT watched Brokeback Mountain before voting. They HAD watched Crash because it is so star-studded ( with their friends!) and voted for Crash. Now, is that intelligent voting? I don't think so. So, let the Oscars go. They have lost any reason to revere them with this type of voter insousiance.
Great posts above, Tony, Tenn, and Manhattan and MPJ!!!
Keeping an open mind on any discussion can sometimes bring a false compromise, or the gift of new information and a fuller understanding.Thankyou Tony, I don't know about the video being an answer but I find it much easier to express my thoughts through fanvids than to find the words that I am trying to say, the link for the one you mentioned "I Surrender" http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=tu6xTwaUTS0
I am glad to say I experienced the latter, just recently, after watching Asali's new video-"I Surrender", which you can find by going to silver
wolves thread, pg. 898, mid-way down, and clicking it on.
She's put together the loving scenes, and put them to music, and it's beautiful. She had no agenda, but it is difficult to see this video and
not say---hang it up, folks, this was a gay love affair, one for the ages. Forget about "was Ennis gay?". The video is the answer.
I believe Ennis is a unique individual with a unique and troubled past who found love and completion in a gay man named Jack, who is also a unique individual with unique and troubled past.I think this is a wonderful way of summing the answer up and I believe this.
Ennis and Jack were soul mates, not gay, not straight, just plain loving souls.
I have not posted much, but did give my two cents worth on this subject some time back. After having read the recent posts, and especially including the "boxers" post, all I can say is whew! I never really gave it the thought that it deserves. I had wanted both men to be "gay" just to break the stereotype that is shown in the media and that is one reason that the movie resonated so much with me. I really believe now, after more thought, that it really does not matter. I think Jack was indeed more at peace with the issue in his mind than was Ennis. I have known a few men that never even knew they were "gay" until later in life, so I guess there are many colors in the spectrum of sexuality. For me, the important thing was the love they had. I think the impact of BBM was so great for me because of both the emotional AND sexual love that these two shared. It would not have meant much to have one without the other. Too bad it could not have been like the reunion kiss, always!
[...]
So that leaves me where? Not either-or, but both versions. I can now see this movie and the story as supporting both, independently, and that is a greater wealth than I had before.
I see not conflicting versions, but a dual offering from those creative minds involved. The theme of love, human love, smashing through every barrier, including sexual orientation (meaning, yes, I can still see Ennis as straight, and falling off a cliff). And an entirely different rendering, of two gay men finding themselves, amidst a hostile world.
This is not a compromise. I really believe, now, the two versions are distinct and contradict each other (and so this thread and discussion), but further, show a duality to the movie, meaning---BOTH versions ARE there, in full force. That's not waffling, nor compromising---it is for me an expansion of the film. Am not saying there are 2 films, or 2 takes on the film. Am saying there was a genius there in giving both, independently, within the same careful crafting and integration of the story.
[...]
I think almost everything has been said about this question;so I,who has been very active these last days for technical problems-with my computer,not with me... ;D -am afraid I'm not going to add anything important to it.I've always thought,however,that we need words to define things,persons,animals...but,what about personal and private feelings?Until what point can we use some simple words to define it?.I don't like to put human beings into stanch departments with a label above that separates us according to our tendencies or way of living. That goes beyond semantical reasons,far beyond.-I don't know if I'm explaining well;not even I know if I'm explaining... ~) -.
In this case,somebody said that Ennis was "Jacksexual" and I´d add that he was "Jackemotional","Jacksentimental","Jackgloballyattachedto"...For him,Jack was all he needed,this right person who appears in the right moment,in the right place and when one needs someone right in this way.I've seen-and I'm speaking for own experience-how it could be the case that someone who always has been straight,or he/she has behaved as this,finds a same-sex person who can fill all his/her expectancies in all senses and often only social pressures can avoid them to "arrive" somewhere.So simple...
For this I've marked these phrases by Lance,that seem very suitable to me,as ever.And I'd add again that the best Ennis definition would be that he was an homophobic man in love with another man.So simple also,but so complicated at the same time.Hence their tragedy.
I've read all these wonderful post, but I still wonder about Ennis's sexuality,all that is written makes sense, but still I can't help but feel with Ennis and slow realization of his love for Jack, how he eliminates the women in his life, the one's that want him, and try to break through that hard interior which only Jack seems to.
Ennis had no intimate connection to Alma, and Cassie seem unable to temper his thoughts or need for Jack.
It also seems to me, and this just my opinion is that we almost make Ennis some supernatural sexless being, figure of myths and not the fragile human being he was, caught between his needs and his fears.
Ennis was indeed a unique human being who found himself through another unique human being, they were gay, and in love. Why is this so hard to even comprehend that their love, is a love story, in itself, and like with many of great love stories, a sense of joy and tragedy.
This just a thought of mine, and sorry if I upset anyone.
I suppose I think we don't know what Ennis is because Ennis himself doesn't know,or doesn't want to because he's afraid to. He acknowledges what Jack is to him only after Jack's dead, so that there can be no pressure on him to act on it.
I agree with you there, tpe. Being straight is overrated, anyhow. :)
By the way, since we are getting into definitions, how would you define orientation? Do you mean sexual arousal or do you mean romantic attraction? I understand we are stepping into fuzzy areas where definitive sharp boundaries are impossible, but I just want to make a distinction between Ennis' attraction to Jack, which is one-of, and Jack's attraction to men, which is generic. Jack also loved Ennis, and Ennis only, but he was also attracted to other men. This was NOT the case with Ennis, at least in the short story, and certainly by all appearances in the movie also.
So, Ennis is certainly not straight (as in 100% straight), but you can hardly claim that he is 100% gay like Jack.
Once again, Tony, you have made your point very well. IF we need to categorize people's sexuality, and IF we have to use labels, yours certainly make sense and Ennis certainly fits the Boxer's description. I'm sure you find it hard to share some of the more personal parts of your own history, but they do help clarify your thoughts, and thus, help others to understand your very astute deductions.
I do not intend to change the topic, but I just have to say ONE thing about labels -- something I have avoided commenting upon, but just can't keep my mouth shut any longer. You touched upon this when you discussed the future which will further and further delineate everyone by narrowing all the definitions. Historically, it is labels that have ruled the day: one drop of Jewish blood got you the concentration camp and death; one drop of Negroid blood got you enslaved; one drop of holy water saved your soul while everyone went to hell, etc. As horrific as these things were, they were real and those who subscribed to them were the real monsters on this earth. Can a label ever be a good thing? Perhaps when stratefying species or classifying blood types, etc. But labels that serve to box in certain individuals remain as deadly today as they ever were, and they frighten me in a way nothing else can. I know some people feel the need to, in their own mind, at least, pinpoint Ennis's sexuality for once and for all, but I wonder why there is that need? What makes human beings think they need to know everything and have the right to injure others in their search? Oh, well, just another rant!
I have not posted much, but did give my two cents worth on this subject some time back. After having read the recent posts, and especially including the "boxers" post, all I can say is whew! I never really gave it the thought that it deserves. I had wanted both men to be "gay" just to break the stereotype that is shown in the media and that is one reason that the movie resonated so much with me. I really believe now, after more thought, that it really does not matter. I think Jack was indeed more at peace with the issue in his mind than was Ennis. I have known a few men that never even knew they were "gay" until later in life, so I guess there are many colors in the spectrum of sexuality. For me, the important thing was the love they had. I think the impact of BBM was so great for me because of both the emotional AND sexual love that these two shared. It would not have meant much to have one without the other. Too bad it could not have been like the reunion kiss, always!
I suppose I think we don't know what Ennis is because Ennis himself doesn't know,or doesn't want to because he's afraid to. He acknowledges what Jack is to him only after Jack's dead, so that there can be no pressure on him to act on it.
If Ennis acknowledged that he and Jack are the same, he knows that something will be expected of him. To take action in some way. Give more of himself and demand less control over the relationship. It would be be one less excuse he'd have to keep the status quo and doing the hard part. I totally agree with you WW. I started a thread a while back, "How did Jack and Ennis Really see each Other? In this I questioned how Ennis saw Jack really. Did he feel Jack was "queer"? It was following an act of homosexual sex that Ennis felt the need to inform Jack that "I aint queer" .and what did he mean "boys like you"? If he thinks Jack "queer" , prefers sex with men, and he's not, and does'nt , what the hell is he dong with Jack then? And what does that make him? How can he reconcile the two positions in his mind? Something's gotta give right? Is'nt Ennis just lying to himself? Just sayin/askin.
Tpe ,please apply your bolded entries to the argument above. I'm confused. At what point did Ennis cross over from not being open to this , to being open to it? and what does that really say about Ennis being predisposed to his experience with Jack. I'm leaning predisposed now. So complex this Ennis.... :s) Does this make sense?
Absolutely. It can begin with denial but then even when you admit and accept this awareness to yourself you may still not ever want the world to know and the fight continues within yourself.
What confuses you is the 5th definition. I should note that awareness does not mean openness. One can very much be aware and yet remain in deep denial. In fact, denial would most likely be the reaction -- a protective mechanism -- to such an unwanted awareness.
Of course it can. :) For the millions who died in the concentration camps, many would never have considered disowning that they were Jews. The Jews have defined themselves as a people set apart time out of mind. The word "Jew" was not something they shunned; they celebrated it.
As Barak Obama has said in one of the more recent debates, one cannot underestimate the power of the word.
The early Christians gladly went to their deaths rather than repudiate the label of "Christian". There are so many instances in history where we see whole nations and peoples willing to die for a label. They rightfully considered it worth dying for.
I suppose I think we don't know what Ennis is because Ennis himself doesn't know,or doesn't want to because he's afraid to. He acknowledges what Jack is to him only after Jack's dead, so that there can be no pressure on him to act on it.
I don't think anyone ever died for a label, but for what it stood for. It is the labeling that is the dangerous thing -- not the premise shared by a group of people who wish to proclaim their similarity to the world. The Jews died for their belief and culture -- not for the title of Jew; the early Christians died for their belief in Christ -- not for the title, or label, of Christian. Barack Obama is correct -- NEVER underestimate the power of a word. And that is why I maintain the WORD, the LABLE ,is a very dangerous thing. MHO
....It is a little surreal for me at the moment, considering the news. I am just carrying on as usual, not wanting to deal the sadness and pain. It's just too unreal.
Thomas, I refute nothing you have written. However, I still maintain the label can, and often is and has been, and, unfortunately will continue to be, a cause of cruelty, false judgement, punishment, death,etc. Your examples above give proof to this. True, every noun is a label, but some labels carry no connotations that allow prejudices to contaminate the labels. For example, a pencil is a pencil. A pencil engenders no emotional response for most people. People will not argue over what a pencil is, or the value of a pencil in the world. I doubt if anyone will endeavor to destroy all the pencils in the world because they sometimes write inappropriate words. But labels that people CAN interpret as limiting others can, and often do, cause judgements, prejudices, etc.
When the Christians refused to refute the title of Christian to save themselves, they were refusing to refute their beliefs, not the title. The label was only the umbrella under which all their beliefs were sheltered.
Also, I think we have to take into consideration who is doing the labeling. I may proudly proclaim myself to be Christian, but, if you hate Christians, and YOU proclaim me to be a Christian, you are limiting me, thus denigrating me -- setting me up to be hated.
I realize this topic may be a bit OT, but it is labels that we are trying to put on Ennis that prompted the discussion. So, if this discussion is not appropriate in this thread, we should find a new place for it.
Manhattan, your post reminds me of something that has always resonated with me. When Ennis is drying dishes and Alma tells him about the untouched fishing gear, she calls Jack "Jack Nasty"; however, she doesn't refer to "Ennis nasty" She doesn't accuse Ennis of nastiness, although she saw him kissing Jack just as ardently as Jack was kissing Ennis. What does this signify, I wonder. In her mind, was Ennis less responsible for his actions, was he less gay? She now knew why he preferred sex in a position she hated. She knew why he took off from time to time to meet Jack. But, STILL, she, in some way, exhonorates him, or at least gives him the opportunity to explain himself. Of course, he just responds with anger and leaves. What was Alma's take on Ennis's sexuality at this point?
Thomas, lamusica,
What you're discussing is fascinating. My take is Ennis was "Passing" for straight in order to live in a world that he knew he would be killed if they ever found he was "queer".
He never refuted who he was, not with Jack anyway. But in order to live and function in his world, he had to be something he wasn't. This was preservation mode. Solely done so he can work, live, and not be found strung up in an irrigation ditch.
Right or wrong labels run through this story, "queer", "Jack Nasty", "boys like you", there was no getting around it, or getting away from it. Labels were like tire irons, and it beat both of them down.
Thomas, lamusica,
What you're discussing is fascinating. My take is Ennis was "Passing" for straight in order to live in a world that he knew he would be killed if they ever found he was "queer".
He never refuted who he was, not with Jack anyway. But in order to live and function in his world, he had to be something he wasn't. This was preservation mode. Solely done so he can work, live, and not be found strung up in an irrigation ditch.
Right or wrong labels run through this story, "queer", "Jack Nasty", "boys like you", there was no getting around it, or getting away from it. Labels were like tire irons, and it beat both of them down.
Ennis lived a straight life, considered himself straight, did straight things, but loved a man. His torture and his war was inside of him, and this is what tore at him. I've felt always his sexuality was burden and blessing to him. He loved Jack, wanted him, needed him, but would not live with him, but never let him go, and Jack loved him throughout this. In the ss and in the movie did Ennis deal with his demons?
You always cut to the core, manhattangirl. Every word you wrote in that short paragraph is eloquent and rings true to me. I don't have the answer to your question. I just know that in the final scene, Ennis accepted his love for Jack, disregarded the labels and inner struggle, and moved on to live a life at peace and content with himself. The rest of the world can go to hell. Sorry for the expletive, but I am feeling angry at the way some people treat Heath's memory, and I just can't feel anything but bitterness at a world cold and cruel. Why should anyone, Ennis especially, care what a cold cruel world might think? Ennis learned, by finding the two shirts, that all that matters to him was the love that Jack had for him, all those years. If Jack was alive, he would move to Lightning Flat in a flash and redline all the way. Labels or no labels, 'em words meant nothing at all. Ennis was a man of few words anyway.
You always cut to the core, manhattangirl. Every word you wrote in that short paragraph is eloquent and rings true to me. I don't have the answer to your question. I just know that in the final scene, Ennis accepted his love for Jack, disregarded the labels and inner struggle, and moved on to live a life at peace and content with himself. The rest of the world can go to hell. Sorry for the expletive, but I am feeling angry at the way some people treat Heath's memory, and I just can't feel anything but bitterness at a world cold and cruel. Why should anyone, Ennis especially, care what a cold cruel world might think? Ennis learned, by finding the two shirts, that all that matters to him was the love that Jack had for him, all those years. If Jack was alive, he would move to Lightning Flat in a flash and redline all the way. Labels or no labels, 'em words meant nothing at all. Ennis was a man of few words anyway.
looool finaly ive found this topic to post in. i am not sure if either of them are gay my theories are in no particular order
1)jack = gay ennis=gay obviouse 1 bt in my mind the least lickely
2)jack= straight ennis= straight
3)jack= straight ennis=bi
4)jack= bi ennis= bi
5)jack= gay ennis=straight or vice versa
i could go on forever but there is some i have ways to justify all of these but i think they were either both straight (and just fell in love with each other outside of physical ways) or both bi my reasons for this way of thinking are both characters showed intrest in women over men except when it came to each other and yes you may say jack slept with the guy in mexico but that could have been just so he could pretend it was ennis and also you may say there marrigaes were just cover ups but then why would jack have started an affair with the woman from the party? fair enough lureen could have been a cover up but the fact he wanted another woman makes me think :-\\. but anyway i dont think their sexuality really matters much as much as the fact they fell in love and love doesnt work by lables.
you know i think it is a shame other straight people cant be more accepting like me but many straiht guys are so closed minded they would be insecure talking about this and would rather just give abuse
I don't feel Jack actually had an an affair with LaShawn, He only told Ennis that to keep Randall a secret.
What I've aways found interesting is the "the boys like you "remark Ennis made to Jack, and Jack not flinching, Jack replying, "Yeah what's the f#@king problem" "Mexico" cutting it right down to the bone. Ennis accusing him of being "queer", Jack acknowledging himself as such. It all comes out, self realization, the love, the fear, that self imposed suppression cracking wide open. It was all too much for Ennis to bare, Jack making it clear to him what all of it was doing to them. It would take Jack's death for him to understand it.Yes,this "boys like you" remark has always catched my attention,too.It seems to me as a Ennis way of separating clearly his own feelings from Jack's ones ,sexually speaking-as the question was between two different persons in this sense...-.I've always thought that this remark is a kind of Ennis self-protection against the possibility of being a "queer" himself; a kind of denial that what he felt for Jack was nonsexual,with a no definite gender of the loved being.And that the jealousy attack that he suffered then was his realization that women were never going to be a real rival for him in Jack's sexuality and affection,but men were...And maybe for himself,because accepting his partner's homosexuality was the most similar to accept his also,hence his aggressive reaction.
Yes,this "boys like you" remark has always catched my attention,too.It seems to me as a Ennis way of separating clearly his own feelings from Jack's ones ,sexually speaking-as the question was between two different persons in this sense...-.I've always thought that this remark is a kind of Ennis self-protection against the possibility of being a "queer" himself; a kind of denial that what he felt for Jack was nonsexual,with a no definite gender of the loved being. ...
You always cut to the core, manhattangirl. Every word you wrote in that short paragraph is eloquent and rings true to me. I don't have the answer to your question. I just know that in the final scene, Ennis accepted his love for Jack, disregarded the labels and inner struggle, and moved on to live a life at peace and content with himself. The rest of the world can go to hell. Sorry for the expletive, but I am feeling angry at the way some people treat Heath's memory, and I just can't feel anything but bitterness at a world cold and cruel. Why should anyone, Ennis especially, care what a cold cruel world might think? Ennis learned, by finding the two shirts, that all that matters to him was the love that Jack had for him, all those years. If Jack was alive, he would move to Lightning Flat in a flash and redline all the way. Labels or no labels, 'em words meant nothing at all. Ennis was a man of few words anyway.
i am also getting angry with haters who disrepect heaths death saying thing like he deserved to die. one of the worst groups are the WBC some so called church( more acurately cult) that has slogans including "god hates fags", "thank god for dead soldiers", thank god for 9/11 and god hates fag enabelers (a fag enabler is there word for guys like me who are not our selves gay but beleive in gay rights). rhis group is vile and they call what they are doing gods work oh also forgot to hate the slogan "god hates the world and all her people". they are not only homophobes they are also racist they need to be stopped i urge anyone reading this to try and stop them if an oppertunity ever a rises.
I think this kind of " persons" don't deserve we spend an only minute speaking about them,Zankou. :i This is why in another thread I said that nobody SHOULD care for sexual option in our days...but they care,and how¡. ^^) And if this happens nowadays,we can easily imagine how strong homophobia could be in Ennis and Jack's time in a little rural and underdeveloped community environment.And also Ennis position and struggle between his intimate feelings and his social duties,no matter which label we put on him;straight,bisexual or gay,what does this matter?He was a man deeply in love with another person,who happenned to be another man,and that's should be enough for any person sensitive and clever enough.
Well, I don't like labels, but yeah, I think Ennis was homosexual, and deep down inside, he knew it, and had known it for some time. I think Ennis as a teenager, had realized that he was attracted to other guys...but of course never, ever spoke of it. He knew that society would never accept him for it, and he had seen with his own eyes what could happen to someone that was gay. If Ennis had never met Jack, he would have just married Alma, and lived his entire life pretending to be something he wasn't, going through the motions, not being happy, but of course, just accepting it, for he had no choice. It's obvious that in being with Alma, before Ennis met Jack, that he was completely lying to himself. After he met Jack, Ennis was lying to himself even more by being married to Alma. Ennis was a person who felt he had to betray himself and just live a life that others chose for him. He was afraid to go on his own path because of what people might do to him if he did. But of course, lying to himself made even feel more miserable. So if he hadn't met Jack, he would have never had a relationship with another man, unless someone came along that was exactly like Jack, which of course, probably wouldn't have happened, because there's no one like that Jack Twist ;). Jack had a certain set of qualities and personality that was the only thing that could have ever brought Ennis out of the protective wall he'd built to shield himself from this world. I think it's so beautiful, because Ennis had this wonderful capacity to love so purely, so deeply, with his whole heart and soul, but it had to be with that one special person, one true love, and that was Jack, of course. If he hadn't met Jack, Ennis would have just been married to Alma for the rest of his life. Jack coming along was once-in-a-lifetime...he and Ennis were destined to find each other, because they were soulmates :).
Wonderful post again,Athena,thanks for it¡ ^f^ I also guess that Ennis would have lived a complete "normal" and ordinary life with a woman,in a kind of existential frame that he knew was what society hoped from him.But I think that,sooner or later,he found himself feeling miserable with this life,he found that anything lacked in it,and ended by living so bitterly than having Jack's love,but for other causes.I don't know either if he had risked to have a romantic or sexual relationship with another man,maybe if the circumstances were proper...As when he met Jack,but,as you say,this kind of love is one in a life time.Moreover,one falls for someone also because you find him or her in the right moment,when you need more for someone like them; and it's obvious that Jack and Ennis met each other in this right moment,when they could need someone like each other the most.And it was unavoidable to fall in love with each other.
it has started to become clearer to me every day that we will really never know and nor does it matter all that much about ennis' sexuality i suppose im just thinking like this because i know my sexuality doesnt have a lable for it, IMO sexuality is free and is individual to the individual person what we can be sure of is ennis loved jack in everyway and this is the true thing that matters wether ennis was gay, bi, straight or none of those options it really doesnt matter all to much. currently i think he was gay but i change my mind all the time but one feeling i have that is constant is that it doesnt matter what he was he loved jack and it was bautiful. so there is my opinion hope i explained it okay :)
Yup. You explained it beautifully. It's just what I have always believed: It does not matter who you love; what's important is how you love him or her. And more importantly for me, I have also learned recently, that what really matters is how he loves you, or me. It's not enough that Ennis loves Jack or that Jack loves Ennis. What makes Brokeback Mountain special is that they love each other with the force of nature. It's nobody's business but theirs. We are only privileged to be witnesses to their story. We have no right to interfere.
Heath said it beautifully, too, that the movie was about two souls loving each other, and they just happened to be in vessals of two men. The tragedy is not from their being gay or whatever, but from society interferring.
They were indeed two human souls who truly loved each other, and that's all that really matters. My belief is that Ennis was gay, and so was Jack, but those are just labels and don't really mean anything in true depth of things. What I mean to say when I say this is that both Jack and Ennis knew they were attracted to other guys long before they met. Ennis, knowing he was different, and knowing what could happen to him because of it, kept it hidden. He had convinced himself he loved Alma, and had he not met Jack, he would have never been in a relationship with another man. Not acting on attraction doesn't mean the attraction is not there, though. It wouldn't have changed the fact of who Ennis was really attracted to. He felt that marriage to a woman was his only choice, and if it to wasn't Alma, it would just be some other, similar woman. That's what society expected of him, those were the chains imposed on him by society. But then Jack came along, and Ennis found out what true love really is. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have never experienced true love in his life. He would have married Alma, and eventually he would have realized he didn't love her, but he would have just endured his misery. A After Ennis met Jack, he realized that he had been lying to himself about Alma. He didn't know how he was going to back and marry her and live the life that was expected of him. He knew it would be a mistake to marrying Alma. Jack was his real true, love. Jack was his real, true life. But he felt like he had no choice but to go back and marry Alma, and do what society expected, he felt like he had no choice, even though he would be miserable. He was afraid going the path he really wanted, because two guys in love with each other was always equated to the heinous murder of Earl in his mind. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and what they might do to him and Jack if they found out about them. This is what caused all the problems in Jack and Ennis' relationship. The fact that Ennis let the fear and restrictions of society hinder him from being with his one true love. Ennis didn't have relationships with other men because he was in love with Jack. Just like a person can be heterosexual and once they find that one true love, if they ever do, they can't imagine themselves being with any other person. Ennis couldn't imagine himself with anyone else besides Jack, whether it be man or woman. He was married to Alma because that's what he was stuck with, it was a marriage he felt forced into by society. He later dates Cassie, not because he has any real feeling for her, but because she, like Alma, was a cover. Jack married Lureen for reasons similar to Ennis', it was what was expected. Later, when Jack had sexual relationships with other men, it was definitely not because he didn't love Ennis. Jack never had any real feelings for the other guys, he was just using sex to temporarily numb his despair, like some people use drugs or alcohol for the same reason. Jack had real, pure, deep feelings for only one man, and that was Ennis. Ennis was his one, true love. Jack's relationships with other men were to temporarily numb the despair he was feeling because he couldn't be with Ennis, and because he was miserable in his marriage to Lureen. All that Jack ever wanted in his life was to be with Ennis. Ennis was his happiness, his soulmate, his dream, the love of his life, his whole world was Ennis. As for Ennis, he felt the same way about Jack. All Ennis really wanted was to be with Jack. Jack was his life and his world, his soulmate, the only person who understood him, the only person he could be free and happy with. Despite all the misery, sorrow, and despair Ennis felt being trapped, being married to Alma, living a lie, living a life that wasn't for him, he still had some thing to live for. He had those precious times with Jack a few times each year, and that was what gave his life meaning, what gave him moments of happiness in his life, that was what he lived for. Unforunately, Ennis was emotionally scarred and traumatized by what his father showed him when he was a child. The fear of himself and Jack being brutally tortured and murdered was unbearable for him, and it kept him from living the life he deserved. That's the entire message of the film. Two human beings found what most people don't ever find in this world...they found, pure, true, deep love, a beautiful and unbreakable bond of souls. Tragically, they couldn't be together because of the circumstances, the cruelty, ignorance, and oppression of society, and the fear that such a society instilled. They were two human beings who truly loved each other who just happened to be two men. Everyone else didn't matter. It's a love story between Jack and Ennis, that's it. That's the meaning of it.
They were indeed two human souls who truly loved each other, and that's all that really matters. My belief is that Ennis was gay, and so was Jack, but those are just labels and don't really mean anything in true depth of things. What I mean to say when I say this is that both Jack and Ennis knew they were attracted to other guys long before they met. Ennis, knowing he was different, and knowing what could happen to him because of it, kept it hidden. He had convinced himself he loved Alma, and had he not met Jack, he would have never been in a relationship with another man. Not acting on attraction doesn't mean the attraction is not there, though. It wouldn't have changed the fact of who Ennis was really attracted to. He felt that marriage to a woman was his only choice, and if it to wasn't Alma, it would just be some other, similar woman. That's what society expected of him, those were the chains imposed on him by society. But then Jack came along, and Ennis found out what true love really is. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have never experienced true love in his life. He would have married Alma, and eventually he would have realized he didn't love her, but he would have just endured his misery. A After Ennis met Jack, he realized that he had been lying to himself about Alma. He didn't know how he was going to back and marry her and live the life that was expected of him. He knew it would be a mistake to marrying Alma. Jack was his real true, love. Jack was his real, true life. But he felt like he had no choice but to go back and marry Alma, and do what society expected, he felt like he had no choice, even though he would be miserable. He was afraid going the path he really wanted, because two guys in love with each other was always equated to the heinous murder of Earl in his mind. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and what they might do to him and Jack if they found out about them. This is what caused all the problems in Jack and Ennis' relationship. The fact that Ennis let the fear and restrictions of society hinder him from being with his one true love. Ennis didn't have relationships with other men because he was in love with Jack. Just like a person can be heterosexual and once they find that one true love, if they ever do, they can't imagine themselves being with any other person. Ennis couldn't imagine himself with anyone else besides Jack, whether it be man or woman. He was married to Alma because that's what he was stuck with, it was a marriage he felt forced into by society. He later dates Cassie, not because he has any real feeling for her, but because she, like Alma, was a cover. Jack married Lureen for reasons similar to Ennis', it was what was expected. Later, when Jack had sexual relationships with other men, it was definitely not because he didn't love Ennis. Jack never had any real feelings for the other guys, he was just using sex to temporarily numb his despair, like some people use drugs or alcohol for the same reason. Jack had real, pure, deep feelings for only one man, and that was Ennis. Ennis was his one, true love. Jack's relationships with other men were to temporarily numb the despair he was feeling because he couldn't be with Ennis, and because he was miserable in his marriage to Lureen. All that Jack ever wanted in his life was to be with Ennis. Ennis was his happiness, his soulmate, his dream, the love of his life, his whole world was Ennis. As for Ennis, he felt the same way about Jack. All Ennis really wanted was to be with Jack. Jack was his life and his world, his soulmate, the only person who understood him, the only person he could be free and happy with. Despite all the misery, sorrow, and despair Ennis felt being trapped, being married to Alma, living a lie, living a life that wasn't for him, he still had some thing to live for. He had those precious times with Jack a few times each year, and that was what gave his life meaning, what gave him moments of happiness in his life, that was what he lived for. Unforunately, Ennis was emotionally scarred and traumatized by what his father showed him when he was a child. The fear of himself and Jack being brutally tortured and murdered was unbearable for him, and it kept him from living the life he deserved. That's the entire message of the film. Two human beings found what most people don't ever find in this world...they found, pure, true, deep love, a beautiful and unbreakable bond of souls. Tragically, they couldn't be together because of the circumstances, the cruelty, ignorance, and oppression of society, and the fear that such a society instilled. They were two human beings who truly loved each other who just happened to be two men. Everyone else didn't matter. It's a love story between Jack and Ennis, that's it. That's the meaning of it.
very very good post i wish i could get my feelings onto the page like that i agree very mmuch with what you said here especially about his true love in a was i almost feel ennis to a homophobic homosexual in the start but its not long before he accepts yet he is still uncomfortable with the subject again worried not about the fact he loved jack but what society would do about it, ennis just felt it better to try and live his expected life and only meet jack a few times a year "way out in the middle of no where", i almost feel ennis was affraid to be gay not becaue he felt it was wrong but because he feared society view of it.
Ennis knew he loved Jack, and before he met Jack, deep down inside he knew who he was. It was just something he couldn't express until Jack came into his life. Ennis wasn't afraid of himself. He was afraid of society, because it would never allow him to be himself. Ennis wasn't afraid of the feelings he had for Jack, he was afraid what would happen if anyone found out about those feelings. Had Ennis been uncomfortable with himself and had he thought that his love for Jack was wrong, he wouldn't have walked into the tent the second night. Ennis wasn't afraid to be with Jack because he thought it was wrong, he was afraid to be with Jack because society thought it was wrong. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and even more of what they might do to him and Jack if they found out.
yer thats what i was meaning but sometimes i cant get my point across to well
Yeah, I know. I was just embellishing on it, if you don't mind. :)no no go ahead embelish you make what i say make more sense :)
They were indeed two human souls who truly loved each other, and that's all that really matters. My belief is that Ennis was gay, and so was Jack, but those are just labels and don't really mean anything in true depth of things. What I mean to say when I say this is that both Jack and Ennis knew they were attracted to other guys long before they met. Ennis, knowing he was different, and knowing what could happen to him because of it, kept it hidden. He had convinced himself he loved Alma, and had he not met Jack, he would have never been in a relationship with another man. Not acting on attraction doesn't mean the attraction is not there, though.
It wouldn't have changed the fact of who Ennis was really attracted to. He felt that marriage to a woman was his only choice, and if it to wasn't Alma, it would just be some other, similar woman. That's what society expected of him, those were the chains imposed on him by society. But then Jack came along, and Ennis found out what true love really is. Had Ennis never met Jack, he would have never experienced true love in his life. He would have married Alma, and eventually he would have realized he didn't love her, but he would have just endured his misery. A After Ennis met Jack, he realized that he had been lying to himself about Alma. He didn't know how he was going to back and marry her and live the life that was expected of him. He knew it would be a mistake to marrying Alma. Jack was his real true, love. Jack was his real, true life. But he felt like he had no choice but to go back and marry Alma, and do what society expected, he felt like he had no choice, even though he would be miserable. He was afraid going the path he really wanted, because two guys in love with each other was always equated to the heinous murder of Earl in his mind. He was afraid of what people would think and say, and what they might do to him and Jack if they found out about them. This is what caused all the problems in Jack and Ennis' relationship. The fact that Ennis let the fear and restrictions of society hinder him from being with his one true love. Ennis didn't have relationships with other men because he was in love with Jack. Just like a person can be heterosexual and once they find that one true love, if they ever do, they can't imagine themselves being with any other person. Ennis couldn't imagine himself with anyone else besides Jack, whether it be man or woman. He was married to Alma because that's what he was stuck with, it was a marriage he felt forced into by society. He later dates Cassie, not because he has any real feeling for her, but because she, like Alma, was a cover.
Jack married Lureen for reasons similar to Ennis', it was what was expected. Later, when Jack had sexual relationships with other men, it was definitely not because he didn't love Ennis. Jack never had any real feelings for the other guys, he was just using sex to temporarily numb his despair, like some people use drugs or alcohol for the same reason. Jack had real, pure, deep feelings for only one man, and that was Ennis. Ennis was his one, true love. Jack's relationships with other men were to temporarily numb the despair he was feeling because he couldn't be with Ennis, and because he was miserable in his marriage to Lureen. All that Jack ever wanted in his life was to be with Ennis. Ennis was his happiness, his soulmate, his dream, the love of his life, his whole world was Ennis. As for Ennis, he felt the same way about Jack. All Ennis really wanted was to be with Jack. Jack was his life and his world, his soulmate, the only person who understood him, the only person he could be free and happy with. Despite all the misery, sorrow, and despair Ennis felt being trapped, being married to Alma, living a lie, living a life that wasn't for him, he still had some thing to live for. He had those precious times with Jack a few times each year, and that was what gave his life meaning, what gave him moments of happiness in his life, that was what he lived for. Unforunately, Ennis was emotionally scarred and traumatized by what his father showed him when he was a child. The fear of himself and Jack being brutally tortured and murdered was unbearable for him, and it kept him from living the life he deserved. That's the entire message of the film. Two human beings found what most people don't ever find in this world...they found, pure, true, deep love, a beautiful and unbreakable bond of souls. Tragically, they couldn't be together because of the circumstances, the cruelty, ignorance, and oppression of society, and the fear that such a society instilled. They were two human beings who truly loved each other who just happened to be two men. Everyone else didn't matter. It's a love story between Jack and Ennis, that's it. That's the meaning of it.
Hmm :s)
I like the messages, but I still gotta cling to what athena's saying. I would call Cassie a reason rather than a destiny. She may be a destiny to the lengh this reason, the moral of her relatioship with Ennis. But Jack was Ennis' destiny in the big picture; he's the postcard still in Ennis' closet, as part of the emblem preserving Ennis' lost love which makes, finally, loving Jack bittersweet and phenomenally painful. I think Ennis hitched a ride with Cassie to this lonesome landmark where he can sit in his trailer and absorb the moral of the story, and the absense of who Brokeback had destined him to be with.
Sorry, a little dose of the D word goes a long way...
I am good n' depressed now, take care. %&)
For thread relevance, under my impression of Ennis his homosexuality would indeed be the speller of his destiny. It knew only the 4 letters; it knew love, then it knew Jack.
I agree with everyone that this is indeed a beautiful post, with many amazing points describing the relationship in the movie that we all love.
I only have one thing to add, and that is Ennis' awareness of his own feelings. I believe, as Heath stated in one of his interviews, that Ennis was NOT aware of his own potential attraction to Jack until Jack came along. As you said, if Jack never came along, he would have continued in life not experiencing love, all clenched and closed up, trying to be a good husband to Alma, and father to his little girls. He may not be perfect at it, and he may never be happy with it, except as a parent to wonderful girls. But he would not be miserable as he was after the summer of '63 because he would not have the benchmark of true love to measure against a colorless life. Many people live life without experiencing true love, and lead happy enough lives with loved ones. The tragedy here is that Ennis and Jack were denied the opportunity for true love by society, and to a certain degree by themselves. At the end of '63, Ennis did not know Jack loved him, and Jack did not know Ennis loved him. True love was alien to them, and they did not recognize it, so they let it slipped. Jack did not recognize it until the reunion kiss when they met again after four fricking years, until the motel scene, until the riverside chat. His reaching out to Ennis, caressing his ear, after the Earl scene was his own confirmation of his love for Ennis. The tragedy to me, is that Ennis never understood this love until the two shirts. Ennis was so clenched and closed up in his own world that he did not see true love when it was staring at him. He married Alma because he was not about to change his life for something that he was not certain about.
Cassie was not so much a cover for Ennis, as she was his destiny, to learn about love. Cassie truly loved Ennis, who could not return that love because his heart was already Jack's. If Cassie had come along before Jack, I have no doubt that their relationship may be a happy one, different from Ennis and Jack, but happy nonetheless. Ennis after the last meeting with Jack was in despair and ended his relationship with Cassie because he felt he was unlovable...nothing...no where. When Cassie told him that girls don't fall in love with fun, he was shocked to know that he was loved, and that perhaps, Jack loved him afterall. That's why he sent the post card to meet in November, to attempt to patch things up, to find true love.
:clap: :ghug:
Hmm :s)
I like the messages, but I still gotta cling to what athena's saying. I would call Cassie a reason rather than a destiny. She may be a destiny to the extent of this reason, the moral of her relationship (in the regimen of Ennis, I too would call this a cover) with Ennis. But Jack was Ennis' destiny in the big picture; he's the postcard still in Ennis' closet, as part of the emblem preserving Ennis' lost love which makes, finally, loving Jack bittersweet and phenomenally painful. I think Ennis hitched a ride with Cassie to this lonesome landmark where he can sit in his trailer and absorb the moral of the story, and the absense of who Brokeback had destined him to be with.
Sorry, a little dose of the D word goes a long way...
I am good n' depressed now, take care. %&)
For thread relevance, under my impression of Ennis his homosexuality would indeed be the speller of his destiny. It knew only the 4 letters; it knew love, then it knew Jack.
Hmmm, I agree with orangetruck in that I don't see Cassie as destiny for Ennis. Jack was Ennis' destiny and vice versa. Cassie was in many ways just a cover so that Ennis would appear "normal" to society. Although I do agree with you that she did love Ennis, but Ennis' heart already belonged to Jack, so he could never really love her back. The way I see it is that there was only one person Ennis could truly love, and that was Jack. Jack was the complete set of everything that a person had to embody in order to unlock the gates to Ennis' heart, and bring down that wall that Ennis had built around himself. As for when Ennis and Jack fell in love, it was that summer of '63 on Brokeback Mountain. And they realized it then. That's why when Ennis sees Jack four years later, the way his eyes light up, you can tell there hasn't been a day that's gone by in the past four years that he hasn't thought of Jack and how happy, free, alive, and loved Jack made him feel. That's why Jack goes back to ask Aguirre for work the following summer. It's why Ennis burst into tears and was so emotionally distraught on the day he said goodbye to Jack in August of '63. He had just let his true love drive away, and felt he couldn't do anything about it, because he felt imprisoned by society. These boys were destined to be together, and from the beginning they knew this was true love, but didn't know what they could do in such an oppressive society. Had they never met each other, neither would have never experienced true love, so perhaps they could have led somewhat happy lives, but I think there would always be something missing in their hearts. They might not have known what it was, but they would have felt it. But destiny brought them together, and they found what very few people ever find in this world. They found a love that was truly epic. The tragedy is, they were not able to always be together in this life like they were meant to.
As far as people in Riverton is concerned, Ennis was a divorced Dad, a straight man. Ennis did not need a cover. However, having said that, it would be queer for Ennis to ignore or reject an advance as aggressive as Cassie's. He basically had to go along with it, and I am sure his rubber arm was twisted enough to make him go along. . .
I agree with you that Jack was indeed Ennis' destiny. But Cassie was a guide, an angel along the way. . .
I hope you feel better. I have accepted this underlying sense of sorrow, or grief without end. . .
I agree with everyone that this is indeed a beautiful post, with many amazing points describing the relationship in the movie that we all love.I totally agree that Ennis was NOT aware of his own potential attraction to Jack, yeah maybe he had sometimes noticed other guys but not enough to fully query himself, maybe he never did we don't know, but there was something about Jack that triggered these desires in Ennis and as much he tried to hold back he couldn't and that is why he entered the tent the second night, he wanted Jack no matter what but because of society and what he witnessed as a child this love had to stay on Brokeback Mountain. Wether this is labelled 'gay' I don't know, I only know that what they had was beautiful.
I only have one thing to add, and that is Ennis' awareness of his own feelings. I believe, as Heath stated in one of his interviews, that Ennis was NOT aware of his own potential attraction to Jack until Jack came along. As you said, if Jack never came along, he would have continued in life not experiencing love, all clenched and closed up, trying to be a good husband to Alma, and father to his little girls. He may not be perfect at it, and he may never be happy with it, except as a parent to wonderful girls. But he would not be miserable as he was after the summer of '63 because he would not have the benchmark of true love to measure against a colorless life. Many people live life without experiencing true love, and lead happy enough lives with loved ones.
I've always wondered, with Cassie boldness, her stepping right up to Ennis and taking him by the hand to that dance floor, was some kind of sign to us. Let's see if a woman, a woman who's openly shows her attraction, who shows sexuality, who makes it clear that Ennis is who she wanted, can make him forget Jack. As we see it didn't. That last night he had with Jack brought us a glimpse of how he felt, about any woman, "I don't know", Cassie didn't have a chance. Even in the ss it tells us Ennis didn't want the problems, the "un-name woman" seem to have, and it wasn't going anywhere any way.
Jack was it for him, his heart, his soul, no room for any one in his world.
My take.
I agree. I do, and that sorta leaves Cassie in the back of my mind indeed as more of a lesson or deeper understanding of Ennis' and Jack's love. "Girls don't fall in love with fun".. really I think more than one message lives there. Jack and Ennis continued their love affair which started on the mountain as "fun", and stretched over its entirely, into painful, maddening, desperate, suffocated, merely acknowledged, deadly and epic. And along the way, Cassie having been messenger with good timing, Ennis realized this depth, he got a glimpse of Jack's face screaming behind Cassie's at that cafe table...
Cassie being just a 'lesson' but also obviously hurting, must have only sealed the affirmation for Ennis. And Cassie may as well have gripped those 20 years the men had together and smashed them into his temple right there at the table, like a huge anvil, no?
:-\\
And I hear what you're saying, Pauline, and thanks for the link. :)
I agree. I do, and that sorta leaves Cassie in the back of my mind indeed as more of a lesson or deeper understanding of Ennis' and Jack's love. "Girls don't fall in love with fun".. really I think more than one message lives there. Jack and Ennis continued their love affair which started on the mountain as "fun", and stretched over its entirely, into painful, maddening, desperate, suffocated, merely acknowledged, deadly and epic. And along the way, Cassie having been messenger with good timing, Ennis realized this depth, he got a glimpse of Jack's face screaming behind Cassie's at that cafe table...
Cassie being just a 'lesson' but also obviously hurting, must have only sealed the affirmation for Ennis. And Cassie may as well have gripped those 20 years the men had together and smashed them into his temple right there at the table, like a huge anvil, no?
:-\\
And I hear what you're saying, Pauline, and thanks for the link. :)
Ennis went from a closeted gay cowboy with little self-awareness to a man who accepted his destiny, tragic and all, living a life examined and measured and with cherished memories.I have quoted the parts I totally agree with.
Once Ennis became aware of the love between him and Jack, there was no turning back. He could never be with another person, Cassie or Randall, woman or man. That's the true love of the story.
Feeling and knowing are two different states of mind. Ennis felt Jack, but he didn't know what it meant, this thing with no reins.
However, if Ennis NEVER met Jack, then he might have tried to make it work with Cassie, after his divorce with Alma. They may even live happily for a while. But I agree that they are not destined to be lovers as Ennis and Jack were. Cassie was destined to be Ennis' friend, guiding angel, to teach him about love. That's what I meant about destiny, not true love, but connection in life. Destiny can mean more than true love.
Lance, I believe you have an amazing time reading between the lines of others and finding that, despite our different means of technical terms, we're seeing Ennis the same.Not at all, I feel we need these extra inputs to attempt to work it all out, our necks caught in that door etc wowthat made me tear up just at the thought of the final scene.
Everything happening on that mountain was in the end, everything. That is why when we see the shirts and postcard hiding as a closet door shuts, it is our necks caught in that door, and the open swaying field of grass outside the window kills us as it stretches over every feeling of the film.
But if I could hug Cassie for cramming sense down Ennis' throught, I would. ^f^
Sorry if I too have pulled this thread way out of bounds, but I do appreciate the stimulation in the exchange of thoughts from others like you who also seem to have a deep disposition to the film. :cr)
Not at all, I feel we need these extra inputs to attempt to work it all out, our necks caught in that door etc wowthat made me tear up just at the thought of the final scene.
Such a confusing topic that any discussion is worthwhile imo. We might seem like we are going around in circles with the question 'Was Ennis Gay' but I do like this discussion and the inputs.
The bottom line is that I think Ennis knew he was gay before he met Jack, but had he never met Jack, he would have most likely never had a romantic relationship with another man. When Ennis says he's stuck with what he's got, I believe he's talking about his marriage to Alma and the circumstances of society that would never allow Jack and Ennis to be free and live their lives together the way they both wanted.I think the word 'knew' is too strong, had an idea maybe but never actually thought much about it.
I think the word 'knew' is too strong, had an idea maybe but never actually thought much about it.hmm i agree with you here he may of knew if he thought about it be i think ennis just assumed he was straight because it was expected i dont think he really thought much about being gay maybe if he had he would have realised but... as it stands i think jack was when he realised but maybe im wrong but that is just my theory
I agree that stuck with what he's got was definitely about his marriage to Alma and society's beliefs.
hmm i agree with you here he may of knew if he thought about it be i think ennis just assumed he was straight because it was expected i dont think he really thought much about being gay maybe if he had he would have realised but... as it stands i think jack was when he realised but maybe im wrong but that is just my theory
Well, I think he at least knew he was different. But of course, had he never met Jack, he would have just lived the life that was expected of him and never really experienced true love. He realized that his love for Jack was exactly what his father and society vehemently hated, that's why he tells the story of Earl and Rich.
I sometimes think Ennis was asexual before Jack, and I say this in a sense of not being sexual, no sexuality prior to him meeting Jack, there was no true desire, curiosity, and I bet he never talked openly about such things till Jack, and with Jack he admitted to his own virginity.
But there was an innocence about Ennis, and there was desire in Ennis that emerged with Jack.
I know this may sound silly to some of you. But those years before Jack, who was Ennis?
I sometimes think Ennis was asexual before Jack, and I say this in a sense of not being sexual, no sexuality prior to him meeting Jack, there was no true desire, curiosity, and I bet he never talked openly about such things till Jack, and with Jack he admitted to his own virginity.
But there was an innocence about Ennis, and there was desire in Ennis that emerged with Jack.
I know this may sound silly to some of you. But those years before Jack, who was Ennis?
I suspect that what kept him from exploring sex prior to his meeting Jack was because he was inwardly confused about himself. I suspect that he found himself attracted to guys, and couldn't make sense of it. Isn't this typical with many people? In the case of Ennis, he was an unusually late bloomer...
-- I would even call it irritatingly typical, no offense to anyone..
One has to be patient. :)
Behind the pretext of friendship, love or similarly valued connection, yes one certainly does; these sorts of things can be greatly challenged though, depending not just on patience but also on tolerance for abuse; this equilibrium can be a black trick to maintain.
Again I'm trailing *o) and into the realms of personal experience which is the avenue that led me to this gem of a film. :-\\
About Ennis' sexuality -- I can't help but wonder when his hormones started developing. Presumably it wasn't long before the traumatization at age 9. Likewise, that would seem about the worst possible time in a boy's life to experience such a conjunction of confusion and torment? Kids have a trillion thoughts and feelings swarming in their minds, don't they? This thing at 9 must have even robbed him of his imagination and free spirit however apparent, and much moreso than that thing he had with Jack ever would.. thoughts are bouncing off each other now and I'm going crosseyed. (^)
;D
This brings up a question: did the 9 year-old Ennis understand the "sin" of Earl and Rich. Or did a better understanding come a bit later, when he started understanding his own sexuality a bit more?
In any case, both the trauma and the awakening of sexual desire and identity were both formative. It coalesced into something that became deeply conflicted, masked under the veil of stoicism.
This is a very intriguing point, one I ponder often. Personally, I was attracted mentally and physically (I think we can figure the proof of that.. ::) ) to the human male when I was around 4 or 5 years old.
The simple fact that we aren't given the details of Ennis' puberty, I'm not sure exactly how to address his psyche. But what teeters in my mind is whether or not he understood Earl and his man "loved" each other. That's another highly discussed issue here. However, and even though Ennis hadn't really felt love growing up, he may have been under the impression that families or even households were units of love. So Ennis may or may not have understood the sexual element of Earl's relationship; similarly goes the idea of love between them. But I do lean towards Ennis having made the latter correlation, and maybe he spent 31 years not shaking hands with but dancing around love's replica with Jack.
All in all I'm left in awe of kid Ennis, and the secrets of memory (at an early age moreso)
:s)
This is a very intriguing point, one I ponder often. Personally, I was attracted mentally and physically (I think we can figure the proof of that.. ::) ) to the human male when I was around 4 or 5 years old.
The simple fact that we aren't given the details of Ennis' puberty, I'm not sure exactly how to address his psyche. But what teeters in my mind is whether or not he understood Earl and his man "loved" each other. That's another highly discussed issue here. However, and even though Ennis hadn't really felt love growing up, he may have been under the impression that families or even households were units of love. So Ennis may or may not have understood the sexual element of Earl's relationship; similarly goes the idea of love between them. But I do lean towards Ennis having made the latter correlation, and maybe he spent 31 years not shaking hands with but dancing around love's replica with Jack.
All in all I'm left in awe of kid Ennis, and the secrets of memory (at an early age moreso)
:s)
I am attracted to the phrase: "the secrets of memory." This is very Proustian, IMO.
I do feel that the key to unlock Ennis's identity and sexuality is in his growing up in puberty. As this was never really fleshed out, we shall never really know...
i agree i think ennis' homosexuality had developed at puberty but he didnt realise he was so into doing what was expected i dont think he realised this fact until he met jack...IMO
i agree i think ennis' homosexuality had developed at puberty but he didnt realise he was so into doing what was expected i dont think he realised this fact until he met jack...IMO
I go back and forth on this. Looking back at my own personal experience, it is hard for me to say that he didn't know, although it is understandable that he was in denial for some time...Denial was there even if he'd never consciously realised it but he sure didn't hesitate for long when the time came. ;)
I have said before that I feel Ennis repressed his feelings of homosexuality from a young age, but I believe he had them. I've also said that he was robbed of the ability to be who he truly was by his father's beliefs about it. Basically he was literally "scared straight" by his father's showing him a mutilated corpse and what happens to men who have these tendencies in any way.
I feel his experiences on Brokeback, allowed him to let the feelings surface again with Jack. His father was dead and he now felt *safe* as long as no one off the isolated *safe harbour* of Brokeback found out. Jack said all they had left was Brokeback Mt. in the confrontation scene at the end meaning imo that Ennis could'nt let go of that isolated , safe environment, where he was free to be who he truly was.
I feel he identified in some manner with Earl and Rich as people were talking and gossiping about them in the town. Ennis heard this talk and saw himself and possibilities of attraction to same sex relationships. He relayed his memories to Jack as if this was something he had carried with him for many years, as if it happened yesterday. It is the reason he offered for not ranching up with him for fear of the same fate as these two "old birds" who long ago dared to buck society and live as two men in love. We will never know if Ennis straight or gay, but we do know he was human and capable of feeling true love for another man, Jack. My opinion.
I simply agree with just about all of this, other than the presumption that his sexuality is unknown; I think it was hidden at most, and that it was homosexuality.
:)
Some people don't develop sexual feelings, or perhaps repressed them to the point of non-existence, but nonetheless, have strong yearnings for the friendships and companionships that usually come with a sexual relationship, a true love relationship, or as recently posted, a bromance relationship.Not unpopular at all. This is probably the closest to what I have been trying to say but I find it difficult coming up with the right words. I know exactly what you mean with all this, thankyou.
In my humble opinion, Ennis is of the latter variety. His yearning for friendship, to chase away the loneliness, was so strong that, compound with the traumatic impact of the Earl scene, made him felt indelibly that he was gay when he was not, and so he repressed it and made himself think that he ain't queer.
My question is again, whether the kid Ennis (as someone put it), the pre-teen Ennis, had clear conscious or otherwise, sexual feelings towards other men.
And in case anyone missed it, I agree that by SNIT, Ennis accepted his attraction to Jack. I doubt he will ever accept his attraction to other men, when in fact he has succeeded to repress it to the point of non-existence. It is why Jack needs to go to Mexico, and Ennis is content with beans...hmmm...I meant, memories of Brokeback Mountain.
I know I said that I am not getting into an argument.
But I can't resist jumping back in to stir up the water a bit.
Here is a question for you all.
Was Ennis gay in his pre-teen years, when all he felt was yearning for friendship and companionship?
Some people have sexual feelings early, and know for certain that they are attracted to others of their same gender.
Some people don't develop sexual feelings, or perhaps repressed them to the point of non-existence, but nonetheless, have strong yearnings for the friendships and companionships that usually come with a sexual relationship, a true love relationship, or as recently posted, a bromance relationship.
In my humble opinion, Ennis is of the latter variety. His yearning for friendship, to chase away the loneliness, was so strong that, compound with the traumatic impact of the Earl scene, made him felt indelibly that he was gay when he was not, and so he repressed it and made himself think that he ain't queer. In fact, homophobia is a possible sign of feelings repressed, and in some cases, leading to feelings engendered when non existed previously. In the case with Ennis, once there was friendship with Jack over the weeks, and then Jack made the advances in FNIT, he was faced with the dilemma of enjoying and liking Jack with strong feelings, and fearing the repercussions of being gay. I agree that by SNIT, when he thought about it by the fire, and stood up, both hands on his knees, hat in hand, to the tent, Ennis accept his feelings towards Jack. And in the shortstory, by the reunion scene in the motel, Ennis knew he had strong feelings for Jack, hundreds of times.
My question is again, whether the kid Ennis (as someone put it), the pre-teen Ennis, had clear conscious or otherwise, sexual feelings towards other men.
My own response will likely be unpopular but, hey, who wants to be popular anyway. :8
And in case anyone missed it, I agree that by SNIT, Ennis accepted his attraction to Jack. I doubt he will ever accept his attraction to other men, when in fact he has succeeded to repress it to the point of non-existence. It is why Jack needs to go to Mexico, and Ennis is content with beans...hmmm...I meant, memories of Brokeback Mountain.
I know I said that I am not getting into an argument.
But I can't resist jumping back in to stir up the water a bit.
Here is a question for you all.
Was Ennis gay in his pre-teen years, when all he felt was yearning for friendship and companionship?
And in case anyone missed it, I agree that by SNIT, Ennis accepted his attraction to Jack. I doubt he will ever accept his attraction to other men, when in fact he has succeeded to repress it to the point of non-existence. It is why Jack needs to go to Mexico, and Ennis is content with beans...hmmm...I meant, memories of Brokeback Mountain.
I think the water here is a continuous whirlpool better known as discussion or debate, rather than... well anyway.
Sexuality aside, most kids in lonely or abusive situations with family, will seek out companionship often on a deep or "true" level. Given Ennis' blatant less than zen at-home sichiation described in both the SS and film, he could have always used a friend. This issue is a pivotable door giving way to the logic of any sexuality and doesn't really magnify the study of kid Ennis' sexual nature. -- that would be about as productive a thesis as Oprah Winfrey wearing sky blue contacts to get in touch with her Caucasian roots.It seems mostly unanimous however, that pre-teen Ennis' puberty and sexuality weren't certainly delivered in the story, and of course we're all going to put our own puzzle pieces together. I find it likely that as a kid, Ennis was gay and had been born this way. It gives a sharper significance to the last scene in Brokeback Mountain, when Ennis faces the postcard and shirts and feels the loss of sanctity -- the security of self, freedom and love.
When Ennis is lead down to see Earl, he is so affectively robbed of ever being able to reach his full potential. The ability to be who he is (I am embedding the idea that his homosexuality was put before the dickless dead old man scene, yes) was handicapped when he saw Earl. The poignance of Brokeback Mountain was that it was indeed safe; alright to continue where he'd been left off post-Earl; safe to let all his feelings towards Jack circulate unhindered.
I believe Ennis' perception of the Earl scene is that it had BROKEN him and he was "scared straight." But on Brokeback he wasn't submissive to Earl. He left Alma, the metal teeth of society's irrigation ditch; he couldn't "leave" Brokeback for good though. It's the only place he felt wholesome; Earl was quite a detour, but it was the only road Ennis knew. He even brought suvenirs of his love on Brokeback, back into his closet -- Talk about an epic roundtrip starting at childhood...
Ennis with his dad's hand on his shoulder, is guided straight ahead. Then he's abruptly turned to see a dead man in a ditch whose dick was pulled off for having been with another man. Ennis and Jack went to Brokeback, they had sex and fell (felt)in love, but then Ennis' fear of a dead man brought him back to square one, the closet. -- this is where only the memory of Jack was left to hang.
Essentially he traveled down the same path twice. He was born gay and was shown it was wrong. It's no wonder he turned into a stoic, a drifter, going down the only road he knew. Stopping on Brokeback so far away, where he couldn't fix the image of Earl but could stand it.
In short, I feel that Earl had done a number as for taking away from Ennis, rather than instilling a supposed homosexuality; the trauma was that Ennis was broken and simply couldn't be fixed. And Jack was the reflection of how Ennis was born to love. And that was without reins.
I love this. Thanks OT. This is always been my view.
I think his perception of homosexuality and,in some extent,of sexuality was corrupted for the image he had of it from a very young age,when precisely his sexual life was awakening.As I say today in another thread,he felt attracted and rejected at the same time for it,because he felt into himself a contradiction:that society forbade this but that it couldn't be so bad because it was founded in feelings(not only in vice,as his father had taught him).And the atrraction´s side of this contradiction made him know that there was something "different" also inside him; the question of the denial is this,another question...
Denial was there even if he'd never consciously realised it but he sure didn't hesitate for long when the time came. ;)
***
I feel his experiences on Brokeback, allowed him to let the feelings surface again with Jack. His father was dead and he now felt *safe* as long as no one off the isolated *safe harbour* of Brokeback found out. Jack said all they had left was Brokeback Mt. in the confrontation scene at the end meaning imo that Ennis could'nt let go of that isolated , safe environment, where he was free to be who he truly was.
***
I know I said that I am not getting into an argument.
But I can't resist jumping back in to stir up the water a bit.
Here is a question for you all.
Was Ennis gay in his pre-teen years, when all he felt was yearning for friendship and companionship?
Some people have sexual feelings early, and know for certain that they are attracted to others of their same gender.
Some people don't develop sexual feelings, or perhaps repressed them to the point of non-existence, but nonetheless, have strong yearnings for the friendships and companionships that usually come with a sexual relationship, a true love relationship, or as recently posted, a bromance relationship.
In my humble opinion, Ennis is of the latter variety. His yearning for friendship, to chase away the loneliness, was so strong that, compound with the traumatic impact of the Earl scene, made him felt indelibly that he was gay when he was not, and so he repressed it and made himself think that he ain't queer. In fact, homophobia is a possible sign of feelings repressed, and in some cases, leading to feelings engendered when non existed previously. In the case with Ennis, once there was friendship with Jack over the weeks, and then Jack made the advances in FNIT, he was faced with the dilemma of enjoying and liking Jack with strong feelings, and fearing the repercussions of being gay. I agree that by SNIT, when he thought about it by the fire, and stood up, both hands on his knees, hat in hand, to the tent, Ennis accept his feelings towards Jack. And in the shortstory, by the reunion scene in the motel, Ennis knew he had strong feelings for Jack, hundreds of times.
My question is again, whether the kid Ennis (as someone put it), the pre-teen Ennis, had clear conscious or otherwise, sexual feelings towards other men.
My own response will likely be unpopular but, hey, who wants to be popular anyway. :8
And in case anyone missed it, I agree that by SNIT, Ennis accepted his attraction to Jack. I doubt he will ever accept his attraction to other men, when in fact he has succeeded to repress it to the point of non-existence. It is why Jack needs to go to Mexico, and Ennis is content with beans...hmmm...I meant, memories of Brokeback Mountain.
I think the water here is a continuous whirlpool better known as discussion or debate, rather than... well anyway.
Sexuality aside, most kids in lonely or abusive situations with family, will seek out companionship often on a deep or "true" level. Given Ennis' blatant less than zen at-home sichiation described in both the SS and film, he could have always used a friend. This issue is a pivotable door giving way to the logic of any sexuality and doesn't really magnify the study of kid Ennis' sexual nature. -- that would be about as productive a thesis as Oprah Winfrey wearing sky blue contacts to get in touch with her Caucasian roots.
It seems mostly unanimous however, that pre-teen Ennis' puberty and sexuality weren't certainly delivered in the story, and of course we're all going to put our own puzzle pieces together. I find it likely that as a kid, Ennis was gay and had been born this way. It gives a sharper significance to the last scene in Brokeback Mountain, when Ennis faces the postcard and shirts and feels the loss of sanctity -- the security of self, freedom and love.
When Ennis is lead down to see Earl, he is so affectively robbed of ever being able to reach his full potential. The ability to be who he is (I am embedding the idea that his homosexuality was put before the dickless dead old man scene, yes) was handicapped when he saw Earl. The poignance of Brokeback Mountain was that it was indeed safe; alright to continue where he'd been left off post-Earl; safe to let all his feelings towards Jack circulate unhindered.
I believe Ennis' perception of the Earl scene is that it had BROKEN him and he was "scared straight." But on Brokeback he wasn't submissive to Earl. He left Alma, the metal teeth of society's irrigation ditch; he couldn't "leave" Brokeback for good though. It's the only place he felt wholesome; Earl was quite a detour, but it was the only road Ennis knew. He even brought suvenirs of his love on Brokeback, back into his closet -- Talk about an epic roundtrip starting at childhood...
Ennis with his dad's hand on his shoulder, is guided straight ahead. Then he's abruptly turned to see a dead man in a ditch whose dick was pulled off for having been with another man. Ennis and Jack went to Brokeback, they had sex and fell (felt)in love, but then Ennis' fear of a dead man brought him back to square one, the closet. -- this is where only the memory of Jack was left to hang.
Essentially he traveled down the same path twice. He was born gay and was shown it was wrong. It's no wonder he turned into a stoic, a drifter, going down the only road he knew. Stopping on Brokeback so far away, where he couldn't fix the image of Earl but could stand it.
In short, I feel that Earl had done a number as for taking away from Ennis, rather than instilling a supposed homosexuality; the trauma was that Ennis was broken and simply couldn't be fixed. And Jack was the reflection of how Ennis was born to love. And that was without reins.
I think the water here is a continuous whirlpool better known as discussion or debate, rather than... well anyway.
Sexuality aside, most kids in lonely or abusive situations with family, will seek out companionship often on a deep or "true" level. Given Ennis' blatant less than zen at-home sichiation described in both the SS and film, he could have always used a friend. This issue is a pivotable door giving way to the logic of any sexuality and doesn't really magnify the study of kid Ennis' sexual nature. -- that would be about as productive a thesis as Oprah Winfrey wearing sky blue contacts to get in touch with her Caucasian roots.
It seems mostly unanimous however, that pre-teen Ennis' puberty and sexuality weren't certainly delivered in the story, and of course we're all going to put our own puzzle pieces together. I find it likely that as a kid, Ennis was gay and had been born this way. It gives a sharper significance to the last scene in Brokeback Mountain, when Ennis faces the postcard and shirts and feels the loss of sanctity -- the security of self, freedom and love.
When Ennis is lead down to see Earl, he is so affectively robbed of ever being able to reach his full potential. The ability to be who he is (I am embedding the idea that his homosexuality was put before the dickless dead old man scene, yes) was handicapped when he saw Earl. The poignance of Brokeback Mountain was that it was indeed safe; alright to continue where he'd been left off post-Earl; safe to let all his feelings towards Jack circulate unhindered.
I believe Ennis' perception of the Earl scene is that it had BROKEN him and he was "scared straight." But on Brokeback he wasn't submissive to Earl. He left Alma, the metal teeth of society's irrigation ditch; he couldn't "leave" Brokeback for good though. It's the only place he felt wholesome; Earl was quite a detour, but it was the only road Ennis knew. He even brought suvenirs of his love on Brokeback, back into his closet -- Talk about an epic roundtrip starting at childhood...
Ennis with his dad's hand on his shoulder, is guided straight ahead. Then he's abruptly turned to see a dead man in a ditch whose dick was pulled off for having been with another man. Ennis and Jack went to Brokeback, they had sex and fell (felt)in love, but then Ennis' fear of a dead man brought him back to square one, the closet. -- this is where only the memory of Jack was left to hang.
Essentially he traveled down the same path twice. He was born gay and was shown it was wrong. It's no wonder he turned into a stoic, a drifter, going down the only road he knew. Stopping on Brokeback so far away, where he couldn't fix the image of Earl but could stand it.
In short, I feel that Earl had done a number as for taking away from Ennis, rather than instilling a supposed homosexuality; the trauma was that Ennis was broken and simply couldn't be fixed. And Jack was the reflection of how Ennis was born to love. And that was without reins.
But Jack was a man. Another man beame Ennis's focal point despite his homophobic teachings. . Jack was friend, companion, and lover for Ennis . I feel as a child there was much fear of his father. His father's words and actions. He also had a mother who apparently loved and cared for him and was a source of comfort so he had somewhat of another side , some one other than the one who hated was present in the home. Some one who sang lullabys and made him feel loved. With repressed feelings , as a pre-teen, certainly he sought friendship and copanionship as we all do. the wish to belong to a group with similar social interests. But there was always Earl to remind him that in his culture , these feelings were not only unacceptable, but dangerous. He doe'snt quite fit in with what was expected of him so he becomes withdrawn. He can successfully repress his feelings, but he is also aware that they exist, but buried deep down inside with the fear and shame. It must remain a secret or he'd be dead.
I think when he met Jack it was only then, he was shown that he need'nt fear or be ashamed of what he felt. It was jack who engaged Ennis and drew him out of his self -imposed shell. It allowed Ennis to just be Ennis first without judgements., before anything romantically could be realized. Then something began to happen. Jack finds Ennis not only has a personality, but also a sense of humor. The harmonica jokes, a cute way of Ennis flirting, a sure sign that Ennis was starting to think of himself as one half of a *couple*. Most likely, it was un-concious on his part, but he knew he always got a smile from Jack. Jack was great at reading these little subtlies in Ennis and responded in kind.
They slowly become drawn to each other like magnets in a mental sense.and start to realize that their friendship is moving past mere companionship into something knowing, unspoken and indescribable. Ennis falls in love with Jack , longs for his presence while carving the horse and while washing the coffee pot. He finds these long repressed feelings are still present and a bigger part of him than he ever dreamed. Only now on isolated Brokeback Mt., he feels safe enough to let them surface. My opinion.
Just to re-state what I think in simpler terms:Absolutely love this post, totally agree. :clap:
Ennis was ambivalent before he met Jack - not gay, not straight, definitely confused, possible bi.
Jack was definitely attracted to men in summer of '63 - definitely not straight, perhaps bi, perhaps gay.
As Anne Proulx said, they entered Brokeback Mountain ambiguous about their sexuality and left as gay men.
However, Ennis always viewed himself, as not queer, and Jack was just a fishing buddy or hunting buddy. He never accepted his own love for Jack, until Cassie showed him that "Girls (and guys) don't fall in love for fun."
Even then, Ennis never really accepted himself as gay, until he found the two shirts, and realized that Jack also loved him for all those years. That's when he finally accepted who he was. That's when he became a gay man, not the gay man who would march on Pride Day, or go to gay bars, but a gay man who accepted the love of his love was a man. No more, and no less.
Brokeback Mountain was not a story about two gay men who fell in love.
It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.
. . . . It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.
Just to re-state what I think in simpler terms:
Ennis was ambivalent before he met Jack - not gay, not straight, definitely confused, possible bi.
Jack was definitely attracted to men in summer of '63 - definitely not straight, perhaps bi, perhaps gay.
As Anne Proulx said, they entered Brokeback Mountain ambiguous about their sexuality and left as gay men.
However, Ennis always viewed himself, as not queer, and Jack was just a fishing buddy or hunting buddy. He never accepted his own love for Jack, until Cassie showed him that "Girls (and guys) don't fall in love for fun."
Even then, Ennis never really accepted himself as gay, until he found the two shirts, and realized that Jack also loved him for all those years. That's when he finally accepted who he was. That's when he became a gay man, not the gay man who would march on Pride Day, or go to gay bars, but a gay man who accepted the love of his love was a man. No more, and no less.
Brokeback Mountain was not a story about two gay men who fell in love.
It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.
Ennis's problem was accepting Jack's love, and believing Jack loved him in returned, that's what happened in Jack room, and that's what the shirts were about. He understood he was actually loved.
Just to re-state what I think in simpler terms:
Ennis was ambivalent before he met Jack - not gay, not straight, definitely confused, possible bi.
Jack was definitely attracted to men in summer of '63 - definitely not straight, perhaps bi, perhaps gay.
As Anne Proulx said, they entered Brokeback Mountain ambiguous about their sexuality and left as gay men.
However, Ennis always viewed himself, as not queer, and Jack was just a fishing buddy or hunting buddy. He never accepted his own love for Jack, until Cassie showed him that "Girls (and guys) don't fall in love for fun."
Even then, Ennis never really accepted himself as gay, until he found the two shirts, and realized that Jack also loved him for all those years. That's when he finally accepted who he was. That's when he became a gay man, not the gay man who would march on Pride Day, or go to gay bars, but a gay man who accepted the love of his love was a man. No more, and no less.
Brokeback Mountain was not a story about two gay men who fell in love.
It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.
I'm also of the belief that what Ennis discovered in Jack's room (via the shirts) was himself. That he loved Jack.
He loved a man. I feel this was Ennis's epiphany. JMHO
Ennis's problem was accepting Jack's love, and believing Jack love him in returned, that's what happened in Jack room, and that's what the shirts were about. He understood he was actually loved.
Just to re-state what I think in simpler terms:
Ennis was ambivalent before he met Jack - not gay, not straight, definitely confused, possible bi.
Jack was definitely attracted to men in summer of '63 - definitely not straight, perhaps bi, perhaps gay.
As Anne Proulx said, they entered Brokeback Mountain ambiguous about their sexuality and left as gay men.
However, Ennis always viewed himself, as not queer, and Jack was just a fishing buddy or hunting buddy. He never accepted his own love for Jack, until Cassie showed him that "Girls (and guys) don't fall in love for fun."
Even then, Ennis never really accepted himself as gay, until he found the two shirts, and realized that Jack also loved him for all those years. That's when he finally accepted who he was. That's when he became a gay man, not the gay man who would march on Pride Day, or go to gay bars, but a gay man who accepted the love of his love was a man. No more, and no less.
Brokeback Mountain was not a story about two gay men who fell in love.
It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.
I believe in the ambiguity of the story as a matter of principle.
But to be faithful to this ambiguity, I also think that we should not say that BBM was NOT a story about gay men who fell in love. People CAN interpret it this way. The ambiguity of the story works both ways -- and that is what makes this story so great.
I believe in the ambiguity of the story as a matter of principle.
But to be faithful to this ambiguity, I also think that we should not say that BBM was NOT a story about gay men who fell in love. People CAN interpret it this way. The ambiguity of the story works both ways -- and that is what makes this story so great.
Agreed, but what is unique about Brokeback Mountain, compared to other gay romantic stories, from Mambo Italiano, Defying Gravity, Latter Days, etc, is the fact that Ennis, and possibly Jack, began the story as ambiguous sexually, and discover his sexually as the story develops. We the audience is pulled into his journey along with him, and lived the gut-wrenching story with him.
I agree that the same story can be interpreted at many different levels, especially great stories. I agree that there really is NOT a single right or wrong simplistic answer in literature. It is why I love coming to this forum to learn all the different views and perspectives. And I am always grateful for the friendship here.
It is what drew Ennis to Jack, and Jack to Ennis. Someone asked in another thread if Ennis sacrificed his heterosexuality for friendship and companionship. I did not have the chance to respond then, but I can say that it was not a sacrifice. It was merely a shifting of his priorities. When what Jack offers to him meant more than what society imposed on him, expected of him, Ennis went with what felt right. Love is always preferably to fear. It is why repressive measures to ensure a person's heterosexuality is foolish. First of all, it is partly genetic, and partly nurture, and partly circumstance. In Jack's case, I dare say it is more genetic. In Ennis case, I speculate that his sexuality was hanging in the balance when they met on Brokeback in '63. Jack was the key that turned the lock and released the love in Ennis. I doubt any other man, under any other circumstance could have done the job. Jack was Ennis' true love. With Jack, Ennis was gay. Without Jack, I am not so sure.
Just my own interpretation. :c)
Any way ya slice it that's my interpretive response to your interpretation. Established. :cr)
Great topic we have here. :c)
Interpretation is what great literature, and great art, is all about. If all movies and stories have only one interpretation, then it would be pretty boring.
;D :cr)
Agreed, but what is unique about Brokeback Mountain, compared to other gay romantic stories, from Mambo Italiano, Defying Gravity, Latter Days, etc, is the fact that Ennis, and possibly Jack, began the story as ambiguous sexually, and discover his sexually as the story develops. We the audience is pulled into his journey along with him, and lived the gut-wrenching story with him.
I agree that the same story can be interpreted at many different levels, especially great stories. I agree that there really is NOT a single right or wrong simplistic answer in literature. It is why I love coming to this forum to learn all the different views and perspectives. And I am always grateful for the friendship here.
It is what drew Ennis to Jack, and Jack to Ennis. Someone asked in another thread if Ennis sacrificed his heterosexuality for friendship and companionship. I did not have the chance to respond then, but I can say that it was not a sacrifice. It was merely a shifting of his priorities. When what Jack offers to him meant more than what society imposed on him, expected of him, Ennis went with what felt right. Love is always preferably to fear. It is why repressive measures to ensure a person's heterosexuality is foolish. First of all, it is partly genetic, and partly nurture, and partly circumstance. In Jack's case, I dare say it is more genetic. In Ennis case, I speculate that his sexuality was hanging in the balance when they met on Brokeback in '63. Jack was the key that turned the lock and released the love in Ennis. I doubt any other man, under any other circumstance could have done the job. Jack was Ennis' true love. With Jack, Ennis was gay. Without Jack, I am not so sure.
Just my own interpretation. :c)
Very unconvincing, but then I think I've heard this before. :P -- We're all in this together.
I think that with Jack, Ennis' door was unlocked so he could experience love instead of being trapped away from it. He was gay but had been rendered fearful of that part of himself by Earl's image.
I don't see it as Ennis only being gay with Jack, that seems too preschool a perception. That's not an insult, I just think the picture isn't that superficial. Ennis' first and possibly only opportunity to absolutely love, was with Jack.
Homosexuality was genetic, imo. It was something like spontaneity in yours I guess. :s)
Any way ya slice it that's my interpretive response to your interpretation. Established. :cr)
Great topic we have here. :c)
Your interpretation is well stated. I am sure that others share your views, even though I beg to differ in the details. The beauty here is that Ennis's sexuality and sexual motivations can be read differently according to one's own unique insight and experience. I never tire in saying that this question reveals more about ourselves, rather than the subject at hand.
Absolutely! Great art inspires us according to who we are. You said it exactly the way I feel.
Great Art inspires life. For lesser things, it is the other way around. :)
The current topic is a rich journey into who we are...
Good point.
Anybody else wonder how Ennis' brother interpreted Earl? What would it be like for him if he'd been born gay. . .
In fact the E+R story may have turned on a light in his mind that would have otherwise been unilluminated regarding even the possibility of a male/male relationship. (I know it worked like that for me). So the question of his bro - if he had no homo inclinations, the view of Earl may have been just a dead man in a ditch, like seeing a gruesome car accident. He may not have related to it in any special way, cause the whole E+R story never really "clicked" with him. But if he was like Ennis then it might have had the same effect - or even if he wasn't gay, it might have made him more sympathetic to homo life styles later in life. Just some thoughts . . .Yeah wonderful thoughts, making me think even more about the thoughts I have often pondered. I believe you are born gay; for some that switch is automatically on and they are aware from an early age, others fight or suppress it until that special connection is made with someone of the same sex and that light in the mind is switched on; Ennis even though he would have accepted the fact about his male/male attraction still fought with it until it was too late.
Interesting thought OT. If it's too OT mods will need to shoot us down. Earlier it was mentioned that little Ennis, if indeed he was "born gay" may have picked up on the entire Earl/Rich saga to a much greater degree than his non-gay brother simply because he felt an affinity for a male/male relationship even though at that young age he didn't understand what it was all about. In fact the E+R story may have turned on a light in his mind that would have otherwise been unilluminated regarding even the possibility of a male/male relationship. (I know it worked like that for me). So the question of his bro - if he had no homo inclinations, the view of Earl may have been just a dead man in a ditch, like seeing a gruesome car accident. He may not have related to it in any special way, cause the whole E+R story never really "clicked" with him. But if he was like Ennis then it might have had the same effect - or even if he wasn't gay, it might have made him more sympathetic to homo life styles later in life. Just some thoughts . . .
Yes, I do think that seeing the dead Earl affected Ennis more than it affected his brother, because Ennis was indeed gay. Of course, at nine years old, Ennis didn't understand this, but I do believe that people are born gay, so it makes sense. Ennis was more horrified than his brother because deep down inside he knew something about himself. I agree with you that for Ennis's brother, it just didn't "click", but for Ennis it did, and it definitely haunted him for the rest of his life. The way he tells Jack about it, you can tell that it's a painful and frightening bad memory that just wouldn't leave him alone.
Yeah wonderful thoughts, making me think even more about the thoughts I have often pondered. I believe you are born gay; for some that switch is automatically on and they are aware from an early age, others fight or suppress it until that special connection is made with someone of the same sex and that light in the mind is switched on; Ennis even though he would have accepted the fact about his male/male attraction still fought with it until it was too late.
I think it is not a matter of being born gay or straight. The biology, the biochemistry, the genetic basis of a person being gay or bi or whatever, is not totally clear. There are indications that some parts of the brain associated with emotions are more similar being gay men and straight women, and straight men and lesbians, but there is no evidence that this is a predisposition or a cause, only that, by the time of death (because all the evidence was gather post-mortem), the brain is indeed different, indicating some biological component of sexuality. There is no surprise there.
I do agree that there is a genetic component to being gay, and I like your analogy of a switch being turned on. It is possible that the genetic component of being gay is dormant in most people, if not ALL people, and that depending on the person, the switch is more easily or more difficult to switch on. I think all we can do is speculate until more scientific evidence is gathered.
I like the continuous spectrum of latent gayness, and the disparate difficulty in switching on the latent potential. It explains a lot of empirical observation of people's sexuality and behavior. It is a simple but far-reaching theory.
To bring it back to topic, I think Ennis has more latent potential than his brother, who seem to me to be very straight in the short story, a chip off the old block, whereas Ennis seem to me to be more sensitive, at nine, and emotional. Perhaps it was his affinity to the queer old birds Earl and Rich that prompted his old man to murder Earl. Who knows for sure? The traumatic scene, however, I dare say made the switch more exposed, ready for the right person to come along. Jack was the right person, in the right place, at the right time, and did everything right. In my opinion, that is why they are soul mates, because Ennis also gave Jack what Jack needed, faith and trust and loyalty. To be pissed on and ignore most of his life, Jack was thrilled to be the center of attention of this capable rock solid cowboy. To be appreciated, to be needed, to be loved. That was what Jack needed from Ennis. That is what Ennis realized too late at the diner, when Cassie said, love is not about fun. That is when Ennis realized, he too needed Jack. That's when he began the journey of accepting himself as a gay man, even though, I still insist, that in the summer of '63, before he met Jack, Ennis was sexually ambiguous and confused. The switch could have stayed off. But then he would never be as happy as he was by the river, sending up a prayer of thanks to heaven. Or, would he? What if Cassie came along after Alma divorced him for other reason?
We can speculate all we want. The truth is, we don't know for sure.
Interesting thought OT. If it's too OT mods will need to shoot us down. Earlier it was mentioned that little Ennis, if indeed he was "born gay" may have picked up on the entire Earl/Rich saga to a much greater degree than his non-gay brother simply because he felt an affinity for a male/male relationship even though at that young age he didn't understand what it was all about. In fact the E+R story may have turned on a light in his mind that would have otherwise been unilluminated regarding even the possibility of a male/male relationship. (I know it worked like that for me). So the question of his bro - if he had no homo inclinations, the view of Earl may have been just a dead man in a ditch, like seeing a gruesome car accident. He may not have related to it in any special way, cause the whole E+R story never really "clicked" with him. But if he was like Ennis then it might have had the same effect - or even if he wasn't gay, it might have made him more sympathetic to homo life styles later in life. Just some thoughts . . .
Well, I don't think of it that way, and I suppose you don't either. I don't believe that it's all just brain states, or the like or that gay men and straight women or staight men and gay women have similar emotional patterns. I believe human beings, whether male or female, gay or straight, black or white, etc, etc., have the capacity to feel the same emotions, because that is a part of being human. Emotions don't have to do with the gender or sexual orientation of the person, but rather, they depend upon the individual. For example, if a little boy plays with dolls, it doesn't mean he's gay or if he plays with trucks it doesn't mean he's straight and if a boy is more sensitive or emotional, it doesn't mean he has an affinity to be gay. Such stereotypes are meaningless and foolish, and downright stupid, if you ask me. Things like that are completely social constructs, things made up and conditoned by society, and passed off as the "norm" when they indeed are not the natural order, only a fabrication and inculcation of society. Now, about the affinity to be gay or straight, I think it's a matter of something in attraction. While I don't think there's a "gay gene"...there is something people are born with that gives them an attraction either to males or females. Maybe you're right about there being some sort of "switch" that is more likely to come on in some than others. I feel this because when I think about it, I've known since I was five or six that I'm attracted to boys, and I've heard of many gay people who say they felt some sort of attraction when they were children, so this is a strong indication that gay is not a choice, but just simply how a person is. I don't think that if you have an affinity to be gay, anything can "fix" you and make you straight, or likewise if you have an affinity to be straight, that anything can make you become gay. If more people understood this, perhaps there would be less homophobia. Now, about Ennis. You have a point there about how maybe from a young age he had a liking for Earl and Rich and that his father realized something about him and therefore killed Earl and showed him to Ennis to "scare him straight"...so to speak. I believe Ennis knew it about himself that he was gay, but just kept it hidden and repressed, until Jack came along. Jack had the right attributes to bring out the real Ennis, and not just the fact that Ennis was gay, but bring out the true emotions and feelings in Ennis that Ennis had buried inside himself for years. And if Ennis had never met Jack, it is likely that he would have kept his real self hidden and repressed for his entire life.
Thanks for the response, brings light to the idea.
I do find it interesting too that, given his heterosexuality, his relationship with women may be pierced. Maybe his nature to shelter his partner would be made paramount or less, his fidelity skeletal. It's hard to put a finger on a straight brother's reaction to a man made dickless for living with another man. I even get to wondering if the detail of the missing penis alone affects his sexual/romantic nature, whether that with women or men. Being gay and not having witnessed that kind of trauma, speculation indeed's as far as I go.
But I like that the thread is still moving. And I like your idea of the brother with the possible instillment of sensitivity towards homosexuality, 'specially with modernization. I think a number of us speculates it was his brother attending his and Alma's wedding. I wonder how likely it is that he himself speculated Ennis was gay, seeing as they both experienced potentially the 'same' thing as kids, and ever reads his stoic nature differently than that of himself. Although it's been going on 3 years since I read the SS before the movie came out, I can't accurately place the brother there. But wasn't he quick to move on and stoic in his own right?
Again, in the light of where they come from, I wonder if he suspects Ennis is running on empty still, predicts the marriage will fail and above anyone else, believes his brother was an Earl playing it safe.
Just some vague points but this far into it, it helps to see it from even another character's perspective. :s)
I think it is easy to speculate how a teenager will react to such horror. Either it was horrific as it was for Ennis, or it was fascinating, for bullies and other who have no sympathy for others. Ennis' brother used to beat Ennis a lot (in the shortstory) until Ennis learned to stand up for himself, and fought back.
I don't think there is any real loving relationship between the two, or else Ennis wouldn't be out on his own at nineteen. Or, perhaps, in rural America at that time, 19 was the age to be out on your own. I don't know.
In any case, I think his brother would be at the wedding probably, but not the best man. Then again, it's hard to say.
Hmm...interesting post, but I don't see how you mean about Ennis "knowing" his being gay, at nine. It is part of the problem in general when discussing this issue. There is no clear common understanding of what it means. We all know what it means for ourselves, but we all mean it differently. To me Ennis at nine was not gay, but he was probably sensitive and kind, as was his character throughout the movie. The scene with Earl only traumatized his kind soul, and made him angry, but it was only able to come out in uncontrollable episodes. The anger combined with the isolation and loneliness made him available to Jack's love.
I agree with you that stereotypes are stupid, and it is one of the greatness of Brokeback Mountain that it broke many people's stereotypes of gay men. But gay men themselves will tell you that we also harbour many stereotypes ourselves. It is part of being human. The problems come when we ignore it, and assume that they are true to life, when in fact, they are mere caricatures.
What defines gayness? Attraction? What kind of attraction? There are more questions than there are answers about Ennis.
By the way, does anyone know his brother's name? My taste buds are drying out. :P
Uh Justin, btw, I don't think KE thought that Ennis was gay. I mean at 9 Ennis could be sweet, loving, shy, tender, delicate, all things that some homophobic adult would use to say that one person is gay; but Ennis was only 9, he was only a child, and a child being loving, shy and kind is something normal, frequent and many people have children like those!!! I don't think you can see a child at 9 and say if he is gay!!!
And when Ennis got older there was no possibility for KE to think that his brother was gay, because Ennis was very masculine, strong, rough and very tough, you know. In fact Heath Ledger (rest in peace) said that it was the most masculine role he ever played!!! Watching someone like Ennis you can't tell if he is gay. I mean, I'm sure that in those times ignorant people thought that gays were all queers, but queers like a queens, if you know what a mean, imagining them like a very feminine people. Wrong, but maybe KE thought that and seeing Ennis he couldn't tell that his brother was like that. Just my humble opinion. ^f^
Justin, Ennis' brother was KE Del Mar. That is in the SS, but I read in some place I don't remember that his name was Keeran or Kieran Ennis Del Mar!!! ^f^
Del Mar.
Sorry, it's been a long day. ;D ;D ;D
This is so OT, so if moderators want to kick my us, go a head!!! ^f^It seems to be OT but I like the direction it's going and very civilly atm I must say. As we will never know the answer to the question I feel that in this topic our OT discussion is important in trying to figure out the answer.
Oh well, sorry, It's me again. Just one more thing. This is to Andrew, Athena and Justin who said things about this.
I don't know anything about if you born gay or not. I have a friend how loved women, he was crazy about them and he was about marry, but his girl quit and he got depressed. One friend of him tried to comfort him and some night when they were so tired because they drank a lot, that boy kissed my friend. My friend didn't try to punch him or so. He was so hurting and sad and alone and hungry for love again that he decided to let his friend to love him. Well, it's been 6 years now and they are together. But he said to me that he never had thought about men before, and believe me he was not homophobic and he was not afraid of tire irons; he just didn't felt "that" before.
And well, here in the forum there is a beautiful woman with a big heart who was married, HAPPILY married, for many years. She met another woman and they start a deep friendship. Her friend was married too and she was happy too. They were friends for years, and they never wanted to have sex or something like that, but they needed to be with each other so much. Their husbands understood that and saw that friendship like something marvelous. But one day when they were alone they both hold their hands while they were talking and suddenly they kissed. Well, it's how all that started. They divorced and they are living together. They are so wonderful. They have never thought about women before, and they like/love/adore men right now.
So what I'm trying to say is that there are so many people out there who don't see themselves like bi or gay and they have a gay relationship. And even I have gay friends who never knew that they were gay till someone came along.
I read in some newspaper that we are supposed to born bi, but later our mind decides or something like that. I mean, there are many people who thinks at 13 that they adore men/or women and at 23 they love the contrary. Oh my, just rambling!! Sorry. It's just that I DON’T know anything about gay things but I want to learn, and I just curious about that born gay thing, because here in my country had a controversial because a radical right wing party said that gay people born gay so it is like a genetic disease (sorry, they are not my words), and the gay community in my city defended homosexuality saying that they were not born gay, but they choose; they choose to be gay and they choose who to like and who to love, men or women.
I'm not saying that it's true and this is not my personal opinion. I'm asking here. What do you think? Why gay people here said that?
This is so OT, so if moderators want to kick my us, go a head!!! ^f^
And I truly think Ennis knew he was attracted to other guys from the time he was a teenager, but of course kept it hidden and repressed, until he met Jack. Had he never met Jack, I don't think he would have ever had a romantic relationship with another man...this doesn't change who Ennis really was, and who he really felt attraction for, of course, but he would have kept those feelings hidden for his whole life if he hadn't met Jack...or someone exactly like Jack...which of course isn't likely to happen. Because there was no one exactly like Jack F-in Twist. ;)Yep O0
Del Mar.
Sorry, it's been a long day. ;D ;D ;D
Hmmm, you know that is quite interesting, and I find it quite surprising. Because the right-wingers here in the U.S. have always condemned homosexuality by saying that people have control over whether they are gay or not, and that people choose to be gay, while people for gay rights have said that people can't choose to be gay, it's just the way they are. I see that in Spain it's the opposite, from what you're saying. Isn't it interesting that the same argument can be used in different countries to mean different things? As for the other things you said...I've also heard the theory that people are born bisexual...but then I heard about a lot of people who are gay saying from the time they were only five years old, they knew they had attractions they couldn't explain...what I really believe is that certain people are inclined to be gay, while others are inclined to be straight. I don't think any person or anything can make a person gay if they aren't or straight if they aren't. And I truly think Ennis knew he was attracted to other guys from the time he was a teenager, but of course kept it hidden and repressed, until he met Jack. Had he never met Jack, I don't think he would have ever had a romantic relationship with another man...this doesn't change who Ennis really was, and who he really felt attraction for, of course, but he would have kept those feelings hidden for his whole life if he hadn't met Jack...or someone exactly like Jack...which of course isn't likely to happen. Because there was no one exactly like Jack F-in Twist. ;)
But, I got curious, and went back to the short story. It's K.E. Del Mar. :c)
'Course I coulda' done that too, but was tryin' to be a smartass, and as whut usually happens, ended up bein' a dumbass. ;)
But, since were goin' OT - Annie's so particular with her names. "K.E." really got me to wonderin' some time back - K.E. what the hey? There is a KayCee Wyoming over in Johnson County (north a Casper), but that don't seem right. There's a Deadhorse Road not far from there, still didn't seem to make sense. Any ideas? K.E. Kick Ennis, naw. If it don't mean nuthing, why'd she tell us? Not like her.
And just to keep OnTopic do you suppose one reason young Ennis "pasted" K.E. as per the SS was not only 'cause K.E. picked on him, but maybe Ennis felt "different" even then and was trying to work out his anger in a typical Ennis sort a' way?
:s)
. . . I'd say his sexuality is deep undercover . . . It took him a long time to find it, . . . But once found, his passion was intense by comparison.
You Bet. As they say "Still waters run deep".
This seems a perfect description of Ennis del Mar.
I think it's one of the reasons why Jack loves him. He is full of delightful surprises, like the reunion kiss, the intensity of SNIT, the joy of jumping down those stairs, the dozy embrace.hmmm :)
Hmmm... :s)
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you misinterpreted what Tammy posted. I don't see the people in her post having a choice. Their love for each other happened. Love found them. They did NOT go out looking for it. They did NOT make a conscious choice.
The problem with political arguments about sexuality is that it is wrong from the beginning assumption. Sexuality is a private business that should remain private. Each individual must be free to be whoever he or she happens to be. What business is it for anyone else? We all assume that people are gay or straight or born this way or made a conscious choice, when in fact, in my humble opinion, there are as many different cases as there are individuals. Yes, naturally there are a majority of "average" person of gay or straight or bi or whatever, but no one fits into a stereotype, especially when it comes to coming of age. Who is to say the timing of becoming sexually aware, of becoming aware of ones own attraction is more than friendship, more than companionship?
Even after he and Jack spent a summer together, and they met in the reunion, Ennis in the short story said that he had no attraction to any other guy, just Jack. We can either accept that as true to Ennis' character, or we can assume he lied.
I think we should respect Annie's decision to put those words into the story. We are free to interpret the movie anyway we want, but I think we should also respect what other people's interpretation, most of all the people who wrote the story, the screenplay, and made the movie.
Just my own take on this topic.
well about the abuse in the bathroom i dont know if that could have fit in the film and if it did it would have to be jack telling it i mean it would be awful to shoot it as a scene showing the details but i dont think it was that neccisary to the film... any way this is *o) so ill stop lol
And just to keep OnTopic do you suppose one reason young Ennis "pasted" K.E. as per the SS was not only 'cause K.E. picked on him, but maybe Ennis felt "different" even then and was trying to work out his anger in a typical Ennis sort a' way?
:s)
.... But it'd be interesting to see how Ang would place it, like he might have placed the other intimate scenes. Looking at the film as it is, yeah of course it wasn't exactly necessary. :)
.... But it'd be interesting to see how Ang would place it, like he might have placed the other intimate scenes. Looking at the film as it is, yeah of course it wasn't exactly necessary. :)
Not necessary, absolutely agreed. One of the pivotal features of this entire scene with Jack and his old man is the aspect of being, ahem. . . “clipped” to use Annie’s term. I’d always made the assumption (maybe incorrectly) but guessed anyway, that this discussion between Ennis and Jack, which is the way it presented in the SS as Ennis recollects it, that this discussion took place at a very intimate moment when certain, shall we say "equipment issues" were being compared by Ennis and Jack. Might have been a difficult, but nonetheless very interesting, scene of intimacy between the men. As I recall there’s no real indication when this discussion actually occurred other than it seems to have been after they were intimate.
Ummm...you misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't misinterpret Tammy's post. I didn't say that people go out choosing to be gay or choosing who they love. I believe that love finds people rather than people finding love. The summer of '63, neither Jack nor Ennis were expecting to find true love...but as destiny would have it, they met and true love found them. True love does indeed happen when people least expect it. What I said was how right-wingers here have always said homosexuality is a choice, and have used that argument to condemn it. She said that those same people use a different argument against homosexuality in her country. So I was just comparing and contrasting the anti-homosexual arguments in different countries.
. . a big part of Brokeback is the reserved, complicated aspect of homosexuality.
Not necessary, absolutely agreed. One of the pivotal features of this entire scene with Jack and his old man is the aspect of being, ahem. . . “clipped” to use Annie’s term. I’d always made the assumption (maybe incorrectly) but guessed anyway, that this discussion between Ennis and Jack, which is the way it presented in the SS as Ennis recollects it, that this discussion took place at a very intimate moment when certain, shall we say "equipment issues" were being compared by Ennis and Jack. Might have been a difficult, but nonetheless very interesting, scene of intimacy between the men. As I recall there’s no real indication when this discussion actually occurred other than it seems to have been after they were intimate.
I had to look it up in the short story. Ennis recalled the bathroom scene right after Old man Twist told him about Randall, after Jack's Ma invited him to go upstairs to Jack's room. The short story did not say when Jack told the story to Ennis, but it would be reasonable to think that it was an intimate moment, either relating to each other about their "equipment" or when they were relating to each other about their fathers.well i read somewhere something that said being gay can be caused by things such as abscene of a male role model (father) or other problems with a male role model so maybe the earl scene and the bathroom scene if following this theory could have contributed to jack and ennis being gay and also maybe ennis being picked on by his older brother K.E could have also contributed. personally i didnt beleive this theory when i read it (it was actually something about how some scientists thought hitler was gay and in denial hence his hate) well to be honset i never beleived the theory i always assumed homosexuals where born homosexual. but i suppose many people on this firum are more qualified to explain this to me then vice versa.
I think the story is more an indictment against the old man Twist as a stud duck, a bully, than as a reflection of Jack. I think it is wise of Ang Lee or Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry or the producers to remove this scene from the movie, and replaced it with the infamous spit into the coffee cup. They serve the same purpose - the old man is a bullying boar. Unlike Ennis who idolized his father, Jack undoubtedly had a love-hate relationship, as any abused child would have.
Okay, before I get the angry OT sign, here is a question to bring it back on topic. Do you think the Earl scene and the bathroom scene are both pivotal moments that influenced Ennis and Jack respectively to be gay? Or, do you think they have no bearing on their gayness? In other words, do you think being gay is 100% genetic, or has some component of environmental influence? If so, the question, "was ennis gay" becomes "at what point, did ennis become gay"?
well i read somewhere something that said being gay can be caused by things such as abscene of a male role model (father) or other problems with a male role model so maybe the earl scene and the bathroom scene if following this theory could have contributed to jack and ennis being gay and also maybe ennis being picked on by his older brother K.E could have also contributed. personally i didnt beleive this theory when i read it (it was actually something about how some scientists thought hitler was gay and in denial hence his hate) well to be honset i never beleived the theory i always assumed homosexuals where born homosexual. but i suppose many people on this firum are more qualified to explain this to me then vice versa.
. . . Do you think the Earl scene and the bathroom scene are both pivotal moments that influenced Ennis and Jack respectively to be gay?
Well cowboy, you put this bait out there, so I'm stupid enough to take it . . . “Pivotal”? nah, helpful? possibly. If indeed either were gay, would they have had these feelings without these events, you bet. Seems we have some vague ideas of who is (and who isn’t) a homo and therefore have some farfetched ideas of why they are a homo. My take is we don’t really have any better idea than why some folks like chocolate cake, some like oysters, and some actually like haggis. If we’re ever able to figure that out then maybe we can start thinkin’ about tryin’ to ‘splain the reasons behind human sexual tendencies. JMHO
Well cowboy, you put this bait out there, so I'm stupid enough to take it . . . “Pivotal”? nah, helpful? possibly. If indeed either were gay, would they have had these feelings without these events, you bet. Seems we have some vague ideas of who is (and who isn’t) a homo and therefore have some farfetched ideas of why they are a homo. My take is we don’t really have any better idea than why some folks like chocolate cake, some like oysters, and some actually like haggis. If we’re ever able to figure that out then maybe we can start thinkin’ about tryin’ to ‘splain the reasons behind human sexual tendencies. JMHO
So I can't use the excuse my mom drop me on my head when I was a baby? Darn!!!
Seriously I agree with Jackster, its one them mysteries of life, I'm just trying not to let life past me by thinking about it. JMHO.
Thank you for the clarification. I always thought the right-wingers thinking a little unreal. Being gay in a repressive society, is such a horrible experience growing up, that no sane person would CHOOSE to be gay. It is why teenage suicide among gays is much higher than among straights. Now that the new attitude about gays is prevalent in western society, and perhaps around the world eventually, I hope Heath can be proud to be in a movie that perhaps changed a few minds, and saved a few lives.
Thanks again for your clarification. It is so easy to be misunderstood in cyberspace. Actually, it is easy to be understood in real life, too.
Yeah, I've never thought that being gay is a choice, therefore I find the right-wingers argument quite ridiculous. The bottom line is, every person should be able to be with the person they truly love, whether that person is of a different ethnicity, born into a different religion, same gender, etc. True love transcends all the meaningless boundaries society has instilled upon humanity.
. . . It reminds me of who said it, "Life is what happens while we are busy making plans." I am sure I got the quotation wrong, and I am equally sure some smart guy will come along and correct me, and tell us who said the original wise saying. :t) in advance.
Personally, I don't think the pivotal espisodes of young Jack and Ennis influenced either boy/man's sexuality. They were born gay, imo; as to when they became *aware* of it, hell, it could have been foggy forever. Half way to forever, it becomes obvious the awareness doesn't matter -- it's not a necessity like the acceptance of their love is.I think this is true you are that you was born to be... if you are not aware of it, does't mean you are not i guess.
Pretty damn close cowboy -:t) smart guy. :t)
"Life is what happens to you're while you're busy making other plans"
John Lennon
1980
I think this is true you are that you was born to be... if you are not aware of it, does't mean you are not i guess.
Of course Ennis was gay. He was gay from the beginning, although he didn´t like the idea. He had seen as a child how society treatred perverts, after all. Straight men don´t usually have sex with people of the same sex. Some do, though, but not very often, and certainly not for so long as Ennis did with Jack.
On the other hand, considerig Jack a gay character, in opposition to straight Ennis, is a bit construed. He´s just an easy-going, practical type, a kind of hedonist, less conventional. Ennis´s personality is much more complex and evolves along the years. I wouldn´t wonder if he ended up in the Gay Liberation Front!
Of course Ennis was gay. He was gay from the beginning, although he didn´t like the idea. He had seen as a child how society treatred perverts, after all. Straight men don´t usually have sex with people of the same sex. Some do, though, but not very often, and certainly not for so long as Ennis did with Jack.I agree, I think what we are really trying to figure out is when did Ennis realise he had gay feelings?
On the other hand, considerig Jack a gay character, in opposition to straight Ennis, is a bit construed. He´s just an easy-going, practical type, a kind of hedonist, less conventional. Ennis´s personality is much more complex and evolves along the years. I wouldn´t wonder if he ended up in the Gay Liberation Front!
Yes, I believe his was aware of his same sex attraction as a child. I don't know if one is born gay, but I don't think it's something that's chosen.I don't believe Ennis realised as a child or even early teens, Jack ignited that dormant spark in Ennis and once the realisation came there was no denying it. I though totally believe that you do not choose your sexuality.
I dont think Ennis came to some great realization all of a sudden when he stole those glances at Jack from under that cowboy hat in front of Aguirre's. I think the attraction for same sex attraction just sort of come to him early just as *straight* people's orientation is decided. When you know, you know.No it would not of been sudden, and even when he noticed Jack he probably would not have been aware that infact his attraction was real. Does one really know they are straight or is to be expected?
Something he saw in Jack stould out for him or at least a part of him that told him there was potential thereOh yeah and that is what ignited the spark and Ennis couldn't resist or deny the feelings going through him.
Perhaps the seed for potential was planted early in Ennis, a strong awareness, but what he was taught and saw put the fear in him for what would happen to him if he even had an inkling about showing it or even admitting it to himself. He had to be a *man's man* cuz daddy sure let him know anything other than that is bad news ..There was a price to pay for being "queer", maybe your very life. Earl and Rich's fate may have been seared into his brain, but so was their idea of two men ,living together, in a loving relationship reinforcing his own feelings of possibility even as a child. Maybe he saw Earl and Rich and saw himself and via a child's mind saw and confirmed for him, that He was'nt the only one, others had these feelings too....but he saw their fate also.Once he finally realised that he had same sex attraction yes this would have been his greatest fear, wether he had thought of the Earl/Rich experience since childhood or not it certainly would have surfaced again at this stage in his life.
So he repressed it, only letting it surface again when he met Jack, the right person at the right time in the right place for him to do it. Possibilty? I'm speculating here.Yep right person, place, time. O0
I don't believe Ennis realised as a child or even early teens, Jack ignited that dormant spark in Ennis and once the realisation came there was no denying it. I though totally believe that you do not choose your sexuality.
No it would not of been sudden, and even when he noticed Jack he probably would not have been aware that infact his attraction was real. Does one really know they are straight or is to be expected?
Oh yeah and that is what ignited the spark and Ennis couldn't resist or deny the feelings going through him.
Once he finally realised that he had same sex attraction yes this would have been his greatest fear, wether he had thought of the Earl/Rich experience since childhood or not it certainly would have surfaced again at this stage in his life.
Yep right person, place, time. O0
Welcome abigailhermina , and thanks for the first post. I personally tend to agree with what you said.
Wonderful exchanges here over the last few posts. The question of consciousness and sexual identity is an intriguing one for me, because although I was aware early one (from personal experience), I have met people who claimed that they were not aware until much later. The case of Ennis is sometimes a bit hard to read. I guess one can go either way... Whether Ennis was aware of such feelings since boyhood is certainly open to speculation. For me, it is possible, but it is no more possible than he being unconsciously aware of it all. But from personal experience, I would say that some level of awareness may have been there, even if it was unconsciously being suppressed.
I do think this post can play Libra to the whole thread. Where to draw the line between aware/unaware is based on just how aware one has become to their personal life and how aware one is that that life is not everyone else's. I am of the group that's known since a very early age, of his own sexuality. What didn't hit me was the 'difference' until later around the age of 10. I'm trying not to stray from the topic of Ennis' sexuality, so I'll stop. But certainly the notion of his unidentified (or as I like to think of it, unwelcomed) sexual nature is just as ticklish as that of his door having been opened (maybe clumsily) earlier on. Viewer discretion applies, but we can't really help that: this is media.
There are people like myself believing sexuality is genetic, and there are others. :cr)
It´s difficult to imagine what the former developments of a fictional character might or might not be, but alas, justified enough entrapped as we are in BBM meandering emotions. Neither story nor script give many details. Indeed just a couple for each. None of them got on well with his father. Can that fact have anything to do with the development of homosexuality? Or would the writer believe so?
To me, it had actually always been very clear, that NON of the guys - Neither Jack or Ennis are gay.well im a bit wither way on this but over time ove came to beleive more and more that jack and ennis are gay, sure its impossible to tell, and the could be bo or even straight who knows? but i jsut feel not in my heart with that gut instinct they are gay... this is afterall the way annie proloux intended them she dubbed Ennis a "homophobic gay"...
Well, that is until, they find each other, of course. But still, even then I don't look at them at completely gay. I think, that Ennis is in love with Jack, and Jack is in love with Ennis - Non of them is in love with the men sex in general, if you know what I mean.
Ennis seems like a person, who is just starting to figure himself out. While Jack might have explored for a while - Even though you get clear signals that he is gay, I am pretty sure, he was never gay until he met Ennis.
Like Jake Gyllenhaal expresses it himself "i think the story is about two straight guys, who find each other in some way." They are fascinated of each other and bond - I do think, that they fall in love. It's clear to see, that Jack is fascinated of Ennis right from the beginning, but that does not mean, he is gay.
After the two of them part, Ennis never get a thing going with another guy - And yes, Jack on the other hand does. But the reasons why he starts to look at other men that way is that he misses Ennis. And when he can't have Ennis, maybe it's better to get close with someone who reminds him more of Ennis, which clearly an man does more than a woman.
I'm not saying that the experience with Ennis didn't made Jack gay - It might have did. But I've never doubted the fact, that before the two of them met, neither of them was gay.
Anyway, the point about this post is the fact, that I actually find it kind of ironic, that this movie is known as the "gay-cowboy" movie. Cause personally I don't think, the gay-part plays a big role at all. "Love is a force of nature" - Love is stronger than anything the society might expect from you. It does not matter what sex you are - Its about that connection between two people, that makes them fall in love.
well im a bit wither way on this but over time ove came to beleive more and more that jack and ennis are gay, sure its impossible to tell, and the could be bo or even straight who knows? but i jsut feel not in my heart with that gut instinct they are gay... this is afterall the way annie proloux intended them she dubbed Ennis a "homophobic gay"...
I would love to read the book - I've gotten the idea from many of you, that it really changes your point of view and might make you understand the movie better. It's just such a shame, that it's nowhere to be found in a land like Denmark. I can't get in anywhere, even though I really want to. :-\\
To me, it had actually always been very clear, that NON of the guys - Neither Jack or Ennis are gay.
Well, that is until, they find each other, of course. But still, even then I don't look at them at completely gay. I think, that Ennis is in love with Jack, and Jack is in love with Ennis - Non of them is in love with the men sex in general, if you know what I mean.
Ennis seems like a person, who is just starting to figure himself out. While Jack might have explored for a while - Even though you get clear signals that he is gay, I am pretty sure, he was never gay until he met Ennis.
Like Jake Gyllenhaal expresses it himself "i think the story is about two straight guys, who find each other in some way." They are fascinated of each other and bond - I do think, that they fall in love. It's clear to see, that Jack is fascinated of Ennis right from the beginning, but that does not mean, he is gay.
After the two of them part, Ennis never get a thing going with another guy - And yes, Jack on the other hand does. But the reasons why he starts to look at other men that way is that he misses Ennis. And when he can't have Ennis, maybe it's better to get close with someone who reminds him more of Ennis, which clearly an man does more than a woman.
I'm not saying that the experience with Ennis didn't made Jack gay - It might have did. But I've never doubted the fact, that before the two of them met, neither of them was gay.
Anyway, the point about this post is the fact, that I actually find it kind of ironic, that this movie is known as the "gay-cowboy" movie. Cause personally I don't think, the gay-part plays a big role at all. "Love is a force of nature" - Love is stronger than anything the society might expect from you. It does not matter what sex you are - Its about that connection between two people, that makes them fall in love.
Welcome, Brokeback adoration.
As you can see by the length opf this thread, the answer is far from clear-cut -- at least for those of us here. I hold a different opinion, in fact. But I do acknowledge that all this is open to interpretation. Even Jake was not perfectly clear-cut in his response. As I had posted elsewhere, here is the relevant passage once more:
AboutFilm: You said you thought about whether Heath could pull it off. Did you ever question yourself, and what did you question in yourself?
Gyllenhaal: I always had an argument with Ang—not an argument, but he was always like, “Jack has had more experiences with guys before, and he's more gay of the two of them.” And I was like, “Wow, am I really going to be able to be the one who brings [Heath] into this, and comforts him somehow?” I'm just as skeptical of it also, so how am I going to emotionally go there? Like their scene in the tent where I'm like, “Come in here.” I know what I'm doing, but I have no idea what I'm doing with this, you know what I mean? I'm the one who initiates these sexual encounters—which to me was totally foreign. It's like, “How do you do this? Does it look right?” And, yeah, I consider it a real movement towards something to go to a place where you're like, “Oh, this is about intimacy between two people.” You're going to have to put [the other stuff] out of your mind, and I had doubts from the beginning whether that was going to work. I think it surprises people when I say, “I think these two guys are straight, and yet they find each other somewhere.” People are like, “What's that mean?” And I'm like, “I don't really know. I just think that we're both servicing a story that is so much bigger than both of us and everybody involved.”
I really like Jake's response. That was very well said. I love how he (sub)consciously buried just about every superficial mark leading up to fact that love is a force of nature. His mind fits beautifully in such handsome landscape. :)
I am suprised to learn that even Jake did'nt really know how to approach this thing so I feel he just approached it from the standpoint of Two people who "found each other somewhere". Two people who just felt an unexplained, but undeniable intimacy towards each other. No lables or manuels needed. Like nature, sometimes it can't be understood, it's just there, an uncontrolled, symphony of events culminating in a beautiful thing called love.
Sometimes I feel love sort of snuck up on both these guys, neither really being concious of what it was, when or how it happened. Think it was a surprise to both in SNIT, when Ennis entered . I felt he was seeking confirmation from Jack that something had happened to them, him being the one most afraid to embrace love. Jack was the one who initiated sex in FNIT, but as intense as this was, it was about feelings first. Both of them felt it , but neither could explain it. Gay or straight? What is love? who can explain the unexplainable.? Certainly not them. It's for bigger minds than ours.MO.
I am suprised to learn that even Jake did'nt really know how to approach this thing so I feel he just approached it from the standpoint of Two people who "found each other somewhere". Two people who just felt an unexplained, but undeniable intimacy towards each other. No lables or manuels needed. Like nature, sometimes it can't be understood, it's just there, an uncontrolled, symphony of events culminating in a beautiful thing called love.So well said and I feel no one can or ever will be able to explain the unexplainable.
Sometimes I feel love sort of snuck up on both these guys, neither really being concious of what it was, when or how it happened. Think it was a surprise to both in SNIT, when Ennis entered . I felt he was seeking confirmation from Jack that something had happened to them, him being the one most afraid to embrace love. Jack was the one who initiated sex in FNIT, but as intense as this was, it was about feelings first. Both of them felt it , but neither could explain it. Gay or straight? What is love? who can explain the unexplainable.? Certainly not them. It's for bigger minds than ours.MO.
I really like Jake's response. That was very well said. I love how he (sub)consciously buried just about every superficial mark leading up to fact that love is a force of nature. His mind fits beautifully in such handsome landscape. :)
Welcome, Brokeback adoration.
As you can see by the length opf this thread, the answer is far from clear-cut -- at least for those of us here. I hold a different opinion, in fact. But I do acknowledge that all this is open to interpretation. Even Jake was not perfectly clear-cut in his response. As I had posted elsewhere, here is the relevant passage once more:
AboutFilm: You said you thought about whether Heath could pull it off. Did you ever question yourself, and what did you question in yourself?
Gyllenhaal: I always had an argument with Ang—not an argument, but he was always like, “Jack has had more experiences with guys before, and he's more gay of the two of them.” And I was like, “Wow, am I really going to be able to be the one who brings [Heath] into this, and comforts him somehow?” I'm just as skeptical of it also, so how am I going to emotionally go there? Like their scene in the tent where I'm like, “Come in here.” I know what I'm doing, but I have no idea what I'm doing with this, you know what I mean? I'm the one who initiates these sexual encounters—which to me was totally foreign. It's like, “How do you do this? Does it look right?” And, yeah, I consider it a real movement towards something to go to a place where you're like, “Oh, this is about intimacy between two people.” You're going to have to put [the other stuff] out of your mind, and I had doubts from the beginning whether that was going to work. I think it surprises people when I say, “I think these two guys are straight, and yet they find each other somewhere.” People are like, “What's that mean?” And I'm like, “I don't really know. I just think that we're both servicing a story that is so much bigger than both of us and everybody involved.”
A big welcome, brokeback adoration! I'm hoping you can get a copy of the book, and you will have even deeper feelings for this story.
kathy
I am suprised to learn that even Jake did'nt really know how to approach this thing so I feel he just approached it from the standpoint of Two people who "found each other somewhere". Two people who just felt an unexplained, but undeniable intimacy towards each other. No lables or manuels needed. Like nature, sometimes it can't be understood, it's just there, an uncontrolled, symphony of events culminating in a beautiful thing called love.
Sometimes I feel love sort of snuck up on both these guys, neither really being concious of what it was, when or how it happened. Think it was a surprise to both in SNIT, when Ennis entered . I felt he was seeking confirmation from Jack that something had happened to them, him being the one most afraid to embrace love. Jack was the one who initiated sex in FNIT, but as intense as this was, it was about feelings first. Both of them felt it , but neither could explain it. Gay or straight? What is love? who can explain the unexplainable.? Certainly not them. It's for bigger minds than ours.MO.
Thanks!
And thank you for bringing that quote - I think Jake is describing it all in a really amazing way. ;)
I guess I got very inspired by that “I think these two guys are straight, and yet they find each other somewhere.”
There is a lot of interesting insights in Jake's quotes, I think.
And I do have to say that after reading the book (I got it from some of you very nice people in here :) ) I actually did change my opinion on many things about the story and movie. Many things are, in some ways, more clear to me now.
(and I'm sorry, that my English isn't that good ~))
There was no other outcome to the story that was possible. To try to turn Brokeback Mountain into a "gay polemic" is not only to insult the human dignity of the imaginary characters of Jack and Ennis; it is to insult the dignity of all those men who have tried to rebel, as Jack and Ennis did, against the dehumanizing effects of those two words "homosexual" and "heterosexual" -- words that, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, did not even exist in the English language before 1900, but which now hang heavily and oppressively over all of us.
The French philosopher Michel Foucault, in his History of Sexuality, argued that we live not in an age of sexual liberation, but in an age of sexual repression -- a subtle form of repression, however, in that it works by forcing us to define our identity in terms of a preexisting conceptual system that has been devised for us by the triumphant psychotherapeutic establishment. Thus, a boy growing up in America today must constantly be asking himself, "Am I a homosexual or am I a heterosexual" -- an interior interrogation that no boys have ever been forced to enact. Is this liberation? Or is it psychological oppression of a peculiarly insidious nature?
What the two cowboys of Brokeback Mountain were rebelling against was not being forced into normal marriage by society, but against being forced to define their humanity in accordance with other people's ideas of what they should call themselves. They simply wanted to be treated and looked upon like men -- not as queers or homosexuals or gays -- but simply men. That is what gives their story such poignancy and nobility. Had they been merely puppets in a gay polemic, then their love for one another would have lacked the tragic intensity that it possessed, and the movie itself would be stripped of its haunting grandeur. But Ennis and Jack were not puppets; they were real human beings caught in a tragic dilemma, and it is this that makes Brokeback Mountain a genuine work of art, and not a piece of propaganda, however well-intentioned.
I just came across Lee Harris' essay on Brokeback Mountain, from BBBoy's post back in 2006. It is beautifully written: http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=011606D
And it's worth quoting the last three paragraphs:
Ennis and Jack were real human beings...I love that.
[...] By having Ennis and Jack having successful physical relations with women, and by their being fairly virile, we were tossed back into the world before the late 19th century. And what have we done? Followed the new rules. Was Ennis....gay?
Thanks, again, Andrew. Although I had trouble with the dating of the mind-control revolution on this subject, I saw, for the first time, how it came to be. You are VERY good at researching stuff.
But I don't agree with the statement that the terms "homosexual" or "heterosexual" are dehumanizing. It is as dehumanizing as calling an American "Republican" or "Democrat", even though we all know that not all Republicans (and not all Democtrats) agree with each other on many issues. So is it wrong to label someone "Republican" or "Democrat"? Does it dehumanize the individual? No.
Thanks for sharing this, smartestsonia. Bisexuality in Ennis is something that I think quite plausible, although I admit that I also think it was also plausible in the case of Jack. The difference was that Ennis could deprive himself of one aspect of desire for long stretches, whereas Jack couldn't...ive whent over in my head so many times wether jack and ennis were gay bisexual or whatever its even possible they were straight and fell in love and when i first watched BBM i teneded to think of them as bisexual or straight men that fell in love but now as time has passed and ive had more time to process things i tend tobeleive they were both gay but i wouldnt say i dont beleive there is a chance they were bisexual or straight, who knows? i dont really think its all that integral to the storyline...
Thanks for sharing this, smartestsonia. Bisexuality in Ennis is something that I think quite plausible, although I admit that I also think it was also plausible in the case of Jack. The difference was that Ennis could deprive himself of one aspect of desire for long stretches, whereas Jack couldn't...I agree tpe...However, Jack did want to stay with Ennis and wanted a life together...it did cross his mind....Ennis was too sacred for that...That is why Jack would be friendly with other men as that would give him temorary satisfaction...Ennis kept fighting with himself to resist those feelings....They both fought it in their own different ways throughout their lives...
ive whent over in my head so many times wether jack and ennis were gay bisexual or whatever its even possible they were straight and fell in love and when i first watched BBM i teneded to think of them as bisexual or straight men that fell in love but now as time has passed and ive had more time to process things i tend tobeleive they were both gay but i wouldnt say i dont beleive there is a chance they were bisexual or straight, who knows? i dont really think its all that integral to the storyline...
p.s.
i forgot to mention one reason i tend to think of them as gay over other things is that annie proloux has said they are gay, well i know at least she has said that about ennis when she said he was both gay and homophobic, im not sure about jack... but surely the creator of the characters in effect is the characters therefor if proloux says ennis is gay, that should mean he is gay, right?
oh god ive jut waffled %&)
I think the difficulty in defining Ennis properly is the same difficulty in defining human behaviour; mostly when the personality is as complex and deep as was his own.More than "putting a label" in this sense,I'd define them as some"more or less sexual persons",but not exactly bi,hetero or homo.
I agree tpe...However, Jack did want to stay with Ennis and wanted a life together...it did cross his mind....Ennis was too sacred for that...That is why Jack would be friendly with other men as that would give him temorary satisfaction...Ennis kept fighting with himself to resist those feelings....They both fought it in their own different ways throughout their lives...
I think they were both gay. The difference...Jack knew it; Ennis did not (or would not admit it to himself).I agree ¡.But the difference I'd made is that Ennis wasn't so much aware of his own sexuality-and give it the label you want to...-than Jack was.
I agree ¡.But the difference I'd made is that Ennis wasn't so much aware of his own sexuality-and give it the label you want to...-than Jack was.Yeah it was Jack that ignited this spark.
Yeah it was Jack that ignited this spark.
I think the difficulty in defining Ennis properly is the same difficulty in defining human behaviour; mostly when the personality is as complex and deep as was his own.More than "putting a label" in this sense,I'd define them as some"more or less sexual persons",but not exactly bi,hetero or homo.
ive whent over in my head so many times wether jack and ennis were gay bisexual or whatever its even possible they were straight and fell in love and when i first watched BBM i teneded to think of them as bisexual or straight men that fell in love but now as time has passed and ive had more time to process things i tend tobeleive they were both gay but i wouldnt say i dont beleive there is a chance they were bisexual or straight, who knows? i dont really think its all that integral to the storyline...
p.s.
i forgot to mention one reason i tend to think of them as gay over other things is that annie proloux has said they are gay, well i know at least she has said that about ennis when she said he was both gay and homophobic, im not sure about jack... but surely the creator of the characters in effect is the characters therefor if proloux says ennis is gay, that should mean he is gay, right?
oh god ive jut waffled %&)
Of course,he was...But I wonder if Ennis sooner or later would have had this spark burning not having met Jack.I've always thought that it was something that was hidden inside him,but perhaps the situation to go out never had been so clear as in BBM with Jack... ???Oh I do wonder this myself not only with ennis and jack but in similar real life situations. :s)
Oh I do wonder this myself not only with ennis and jack but in similar real life situations. :s)
Oh I do wonder this myself not only with ennis and jack but in similar real life situations. :s)
That's a good question. I have been wondering that myself. It started when I wondered how did Jack know that Ennis was the one, or did Jack know? What gave him the signals to throw caution to the wind, and risk everything in FNIT? Once it was over, even before SNIT, he seemed confident on the mountain, waiting for Ennis, and the subsequent "I ain't queer" conversation.
It would make more sense of his courage to go after Ennis, and his hope for twenty years. But why did he give up that spring, after their last meeting? Did he have doubt at that point? Did he meet someone else? Can the spark between them have died down with age and time? So many questions, so few answers.
With Ennis, I think it may be easier, because I doubt anyone else has exactly the right combination of everything to spark ignition in Ennis. So, without Jack, he'd be one of those people who live out their life of quiet desperation without ever knowing true love with passion, just loving relationships, and devoted friendships, like with Don Wroe, and his daughters.
I don't think Jack gave up on Ennis, sometimes confrontations are necessary in a relationship especially for these two who didn't share a lot of their feelings with each other so there was miscommunication and that is always cause for some pent up bad feelings. That aside, Jack's love for Ennis was too strong to give up on him, this was his soulmate, believe me you know when you have that, it is a feeling like no other. The storms are part of the sunshine, but you weather them through and it's worth it because you get so much back in return. Sure the sparks turn to smoldering embers with time, but the love remains and the devotion and caring for that other person becomes even stronger. And every so often, that little spark turns into a flame once again.
Well, I also think that Jack never stpped loving Ennis, and that Jack had always tried to accept who Ennis was deep down: a person very much conflicted in terms of identity and sexuality, but someone who can love deeply, if not perfectly.
That what loving someone is,no?.To try to accept them with their mistakes and faults,because they're also a part of this person who have arrived to love.And I think Jack knew perfectly well how much conflicted Ennis was,but also how much he was able to love.To love him.
Thanks MPJ and lance.I totally agree with that.
If there is anything that transcended their faults, it was surely that love. In the context of that love, the question of sexual orientation is not really that important.
I totally agree with that.
Thanks MPJ and lance.
If there is anything that transcended their faults, it was surely that love. In the context of that love, the question of sexual orientation is not really that important.
I totally agree with that.
I think we call this love transcendent.:s) Hmmm may I quote you and Emerson, perhaps, Ennis was transcendental. His love for Jack was not about just the sex, if it were, in which case, he would be gay. But as you said, his love was transcendent, which makes him transcendental.
:s) Hmmm may I quote you and Emerson, perhaps, Ennis was transcendental. His love for Jack was not about just the sex, if it were, in which case, he would be gay. But as you said, his love was transcendent, which makes him transcendental.
Hello lance! Well, truthfull, gayness is not just about sex. It is a whole world of feeling. But I think I know what you mean. It is certainly Emersonian!
Yup. That's for sure. Zach is gay not just because of the sex, but his feelings for Shaun.
Ennis, in that case, is gay...
but, perhaps, transcendentally gay because his love transcends life and death, perfection or faults, distance or time. It reaches back twenty years, across state lines and vast distances, even beyond the grave.
I guess, in a way, the same transcendental love is what brings us all here, holds us altogether, after all this time.
I tend to think that in many real life situations where people are "in the closet", a catalyst does come along where the person is impelled to respond to his or her true feelings. What happens after that usually depends on the social support surrounding these individuals, or the lack thereof. IN certain situaltions, it is quite traumatic, which even pushes them deeper into the closet.
In a way, Ennis was lucky.
Eerily true. :-\\
Historically and culturally, the concepts of "gay" and "straight", even "bi-sexual" are quite recent innovations and largely restricted to the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim world. Other societies recognise, or at least assume, that every human being has the potential to enjoy sex with someone of the same sex. And even in this society, it is far more common for men to dally with one another (even when their primary drive is towards women) in the right circumstances than the Establishment cares to admit. The plot of BBM is genuine; I know this both from numerous personal experiences and through anecdotal evidence. Classifying people according to their sexual preference is too easy and has little to do with reality. For Ennis, there is a mythical "queer" who bears a set of stereotypical traits and who fundamentally responds sexually to other men, but not to women. Ennis knows himself to be attracted to women and knows himself to be free of the stereotypical characteristics which identify a "queer". So his remark "I ain't queer" must be stated in order to absolve himself of any such identity; "This is a one-shot thing" suggests he intends to play around in the absence of any females (like masturbating when there's no sexual outlet available), but not make a habit of it thereafter. I've had numerous sexual experiences over the years with self-proclaimed "straight" men who were happy to roll in the hay with another fellow, so long as it was made clear that no-one else must know and that no negative label be applied to their identity. I know of so very, very many examples of this that I believe Annie Proulx revealed a deep truth about human practice in that short, simple story. Ennis is only human.
Just wanted to say...damn good post to quote.
From someone who's seen if the grass is greener from both sides of the fence. Hates labels. An doesn't fit naturally into any stereotype. Here's to ya lachlan.
Thanks for the quote OT. Had completely missed this.
Was Ennis gay? SURE! Maybe.. I don't know.
In the Ennis way, he loved Jack. An in the Ennis way, loved Alma.
i've been reading a lot of stuff in this forum, but i when i read this i couldn't help laugh. ennis saying "i not queer", but what does that word mean to him? it's like someone ask me here in this forum how out was i. it's all in heart of the person who's being asked that question. we don't know what ennis means by queer. We label ourselves tops, bottoms, flaming, flamboyant, bears, cubs, being on the down low, so many labels, damn did i miss any? it all comes down to how we see ourselves. what would he say? that he loved once, and his name was jack. so i take ennis at his word he's not queer (whatever that means to him), we only be guessing at the rest.
:ghug: topoex :ghug: :^^) ^f^ beautifully said words of the heart. I am so glad you found your way to ennsjack. :ghug: I love that last phrase...we only be guessing at the rest...succinctly wrapping up Ennis in a nugget of bittersweet truth that's delicious and gut-wrenching. :ghug:
Glad to know you've invited a friend to the forum, lc.
A good element of neutrality is like dairy in milk. Real.
Good luck in whatever you do, top. :c)
Not sure what you been putting in the milk, Justin. :) Topoex found his way here, if I recall correctly, by searching on the web with a friend of his after watching Brokeback Mountain with his partner.
::) Let be, let be. :c)
I would have to say Ennis is gay. Growing up he was "scared straight". But in the woods where noone is looking anything goes. So, Off With His Pants!. lol. ...
I think that Ennis was simply a person whom his father's influences and the circumstances made him have a kind of hate-atraction relationship about homosexuality.It's a well-known fact that forbidding something without a reason produces a wish of knowing it better,as well as a rejection,in a strange mixture of feelings and sensations.Ennis was an homophobic man disguised of gay,disguised at its turn of straight.
Did the 9-year old Ennis have any conscious knowledge of his own sexual identity? Frankly, I don't think so -- at least not consciously. But the Earl and Rich expisode clearly embedded itself deeply in his psyche, and this would lead of conflict later on.
I don't think that Ennis was gay, but it is surprising how he knew what to do with Jack?! That means that knowledge about Earl and Rich gave that 9-year old a pretty good idea...
Btw, 9-year old can have conscious knowledge about his sexual identity. IMHO ???
Maybe. But it is hard to say. How hid the 9-year old understand what his father was trying to point out? He was assuming that Ennis would understand why Earl ended up this way -- a bit too much for a father to expect of a child, I think.
That's true. But children do understand much more that we can imagine - in their own way. and the explanation about that awful scene that Ennis gave to Jack showed pretty much clear that Ennis was aware of everything, ,maybe even too aware, coz it formed a lifetime fear in him.
On the other hand gave him a strong awareness what "queerness" is all about, which other young man in 60' maybe wouldn't know... :s)
Yes, but parents normally try not to test the limits of their understanding. Which is what makes the action of Ennis's father more unfathomable.
In any case, I personally think that Ennis was homosexual -- not having to use the term "gay", if one wants to be free of certain socio-cultural aspects that come with that term.
Did the 9-year old Ennis have any conscious knowledge of his own sexual identity? Frankly, I don't think so -- at least not consciously. But the Earl and Rich expisode clearly embedded itself deeply in his psyche, and this would lead of conflict later on.I don't think either that a 9 years-old boy can be very conscious of his sexual identity,in a clear way as he will be few years after.But what I believe and I meant in my former post,is that his father told him that that had happenned to those men "for being faggot,something against God' laws and men understanding,something very bad and that deserves a punishment like this"...And that this idea in such a tender mind,can easily create a hate-love's idea some years after;the idea one usually creates when there's a denial without an explanation,without a reason.And that hate-love idea,rejection-attraction,can go to the surface when there're some ideal circumstances,like it happenned with Ennis and his first friendship with Jack,who,by the way,made him "beat the hook"...
You're right about the parent especially the rigid and conservative ones who didn't care for the right and effective method of education, but only for reaching the goal (which they often missed just because of that attitude).
I am sure that if no Jack - Ennis would've never have anything with other man. Two of them were one!
Jack had more tendency towards men, but also can be because he was searching for Ennis whom he couldn't have.
I see the things in this was and Jake G. said pretty much the same about it. And when he says something.... ::) ;)
I don't think either that a 9 years-old boy can be very conscious of his sexual identity,in a clear way as he will be few years after.But what I believe and I meant in my former post,is that his father told him that that had happenned to those men "for being faggot,something against God' laws and men understanding,something very bad and that deserves a punishment like this"...And that this idea in such a tender mind,can easily create a hate-love's idea some years after;the idea one usually creates when there's a denial without an explanation,without a reason.And that hate-love idea,rejection-attraction,can go to the surface when there're some ideal circumstances,like it happenned with Ennis and his first friendship with Jack,who,by the way,made him "beat the hook"...
But to have done this would be to assume that the child prior knowledge of sexual relations -- something that I think conservative fundamentalist parents don't assume with children. In fact, I would say that they normally choose to hide the possibility of "unnatural" acts from the very young -- trying to pretend that they don't really exist in a moral world. That such things exist in other places could later be brushed aside as aberrations of the cities of Sodom...I have never been a conservative fundamentalist mother,but,even so,I suppose there are some other ways to explain to a pre-teenager boy how they arrive to this world.And it's in this sense that Ennis father could have told his sons,when showing them Earl's corpse,that these men had done "things" against natural God's laws.I suppose that it's worse to show a murdered man to a 9 years-old child than to tell him why this man has been murdered,above all if the child asks this why...
Well, I would say that both had the (latent?) tendency, except that Jack was more open about it. He had no hang-ups, so to speak...
But to have done this would be to assume that the child prior knowledge of sexual relations -- something that I think conservative fundamentalist parents don't assume with children. In fact, I would say that they normally choose to hide the possibility of "unnatural" acts from the very young -- trying to pretend that they don't really exist in a moral world. That such things exist in other places could later be brushed aside as aberrations of the cities of Sodom...
I think Ennis is hard to categorize. He fell in love with person, not his gender.
Ennis was never attracted to another man, but neither to a woman. Yes, I know, he had his wife and girlfriend, but he didn't really put himself into those relationships. Those relationships weren't mutual.
On the short story he says: "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."
So, I guess Ennis wasn't homosexual neither straight. He was just... a man with feelings.
I have never been a conservative fundamentalist mother,but,even so,I suppose there are some other ways to explain to a pre-teenager boy how they arrive to this world.And it's in this sense that Ennis father could have told his sons,when showing them Earl's corpse,that these men had done "things" against natural God's laws.I suppose that it's worse to show a murdered man to a 9 years-old child than to tell him why this man has been murdered,above all if the child asks this why...
Whatever it was,the idea of "being with another man" as something linked with sin can be created in children's mind,even if you don't explain them anything about sex in a clear way.And this can produce an ambivalent reaction,as I said formerly,of attraction-repulsion that can be after addressed in a sense or the other...
I always wonder where is a line between a tendency and a determined homosexuality... I don't believe that all people are the same when it comes to their preference. :s)
I think Ennis is hard to categorize. He fell in love with person, not his gender.
Ennis was never attracted to another man, but neither to a woman. Yes, I know, he had his wife and girlfriend, but he didn't really put himself into those relationships. Those relationships weren't mutual.
On the short story he says: "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."
So, I guess Ennis wasn't homosexual neither straight. He was just... a man with feelings.
Some people would say that everyone has a latent tendency to homosexual acts. I don't know, really. Perhaps there is a grain of truth to it. But I tend to think that orientation is a great part genetic, if not entirely.
I disagree with this... :)
I believe that homosexuality can be caused by a numerous factors in life. Also, I believe that if a man or a woman madly falls in love with a person af the same gender it is possible that if this doesn't work, he/she can continue searching for this partner in other people of the same gender (which was partially case with Jack).
I think that some people have choice, but some don't, in the matter of their partner's gender.
But as I said, I believe that it is "in great part" genetic. This implies that is is caused by numerous factors. But I think that there is a strong genetic component to it.
I don't have scientific proof for it. Only anecdotal evidence. In my family, I can trace a homosexual thread for up to 4 generations back on the father side of my family. There are 2 of us in my generation, in fact. I don't think it can be coincidence.
There is no such thread on my mother's side that I know of at the present.
Genetic is a powerful thing, I admit.
There was a story in Oprah where in one (very religious) family out of 7 children (5 brothers and 2 sisters) even 4 of males were homosexuals! I was stunned. It was not a coincidence, surely! But their parents never allowed them to talk about it in the house..
What I wanted to say is just that a certain circumstances can heavily induce this kind of sexual behavior, and that some people can chose and some can't. IMHO
Well, I actually know at least 6 families where at least 2 of the brothers/sisters was gay/lesbian. In one instance, all 3 boys tuned out to be gay! I don't think this is uncommon...
The possible connection with Ennis is that a genetic component would be completely independent of background and behavior. Homosecuals don't behave in one way. In fact, a large majority of them would behave the same way that Ennis did, especially among the older generations.
Still, I don't believe that Ennis was gay. Had he been gay, he would have at least look at some other man, right? But he cared for no one. Only Jack!but Ennis was strongly denying his homosexuality, even with Jack he was never fully open to himself about his feelings and that was with the man he loved! i think if he ever caught himself looking at other men hed be appauled...also jsut because it was enver shown or written in the film or SS doesnt techniqually mean it never happened....
but Ennis was strongly denying his homosexuality, even with Jack he was never fully open to himself about his feelings and that was with the man he loved! i think if he ever caught himself looking at other men hed be appauled...also jsut because it was enver shown or written in the film or SS doesnt techniqually mean it never happened....
In SS was clearly said that he never had even the idea of doing it with other man.no but that doesnt mean hes not gay, proloux has stated he was BOTH gay and homophobic, the homophobia could be the reason for this.
no but that doesnt mean hes not gay, proloux has stated he was BOTH gay and homophobic, the homophobia could be the reason for this.
Still, I don't believe that Ennis was gay. Had he been gay, he would have at least look at some other man, right? But he cared for no one. Only Jack!Not necessarily,Loreen... %( Don't forget Ennis was a very stoic man,able to repress his innest feelings even about the only PERSON he has really loved in all his life.What else was he going to do,then,with any other man,bearing in mind his fears and the environment he lived in?.
I don't think either that a 9 years-old boy can be very conscious of his sexual identity,in a clear way as he will be few years after.But what I believe and I meant in my former post,is that his father told him that that had happenned to those men "for being faggot,something against God' laws and men understanding,something very bad and that deserves a punishment like this"...And that this idea in such a tender mind,can easily create a hate-love's idea some years after;the idea one usually creates when there's a denial without an explanation,without a reason.And that hate-love idea,rejection-attraction,can go to the surface when there're some ideal circumstances,like it happenned with Ennis and his first friendship with Jack,who,by the way,made him "beat the hook"...
Not necessarily,Loreen... %( Don't forget Ennis was a very stoic man,able to repress his innest feelings even about the only PERSON he has really loved in all his life.What else was he going to do,then,with any other man,bearing in mind his fears and the environment he lived in?.
And by the way,believe me;once someone has had a relationship with another same sex person that hasn't worked,he or she is looking for LOVE,in capital letters,no matter with who,as long as he or she can be loved in his/her turn-unless you're 100% gay or lesbian,bisexuality doesn't go to an only path...-.
*o) Please,don't make so many differentiations about homosexual way of feeling,loving or just being;too many differentiations "the others" make already with us...All of us are PERSONS with a heart and feelings,who gives a damn about if loving this person or this other is genetic,learned or because you feel like doing it?. >:(
If AP stated that, there was no need for 28 pages of this topic... ;)well AP did so maybe there was no need, however its still a great topic to discuss and explore all aspects of ennis seual identity and homophobia.
Still, I don't believe that Ennis was gay. Had he been gay, he would have at least look at some other man, right? But he cared for no one. Only Jack!Just because Ennis may never have looked at another man or looked at one in the same way as he did Jack does not mean he was not gay.
but Ennis was strongly denying his homosexuality, even with Jack he was never fully open to himself about his feelings and that was with the man he loved! i think if he ever caught himself looking at other men hed be appauled...also jsut because it was enver shown or written in the film or SS doesnt techniqually mean it never happened....Exactly. He knew the way he felt about Jack but this was difficult to admit even to himself. Even if he did look at other men no one matched up to Jack, so in his mind Jack was the only man he had feelings for.
- labels, labels, labels... most people criticize what they can not understand, they will keep flushing themselves down the toilet of their own ignorance.
-you are right tpe.
let see : how many men a woman need to sleep with to be called a "slut"?
let see: if two straight men sleep with each other one night, will we call them "queers" the next morning?
let see: is there a "grey area" left?.
you are right, we need to label ourselves, and PLEASE some one show us the choice of labels, before we get tagged by
miseducated societies.
some times you need to lose something to gain something.
Agreed. Sorry that I have sidetracked the discussion a bit about labels. It is related to the current topic, but if you want to post additional thoughts about Ennis's sexuality, then feel free to ignore my broader comments on labels. ;)
In fact it was me who went OT. But when it comes to labels - it is very common used in every part of our lives. It is just that we are more sensitive when it comes to something we are being labeled about. So I assume that gay people are very sensitive when it comes to words that describe their sexuality in rude or ridiculing way.
IT is quite common -- perhaps even ubiquitous... As for gay people, it all depends. Some embrace the label with pride, ehile other do not. Don't forget that "gay" was coined to counter more pejorative terms like queer or queen or or sissy or pansy, etc. "Gay" was originally used as a non-pejorative term.
::) I was thinking about the other terms you mentioned, not "gay"! I also think of "gay" as a polite word... :s),and not being a native speaker, I have to be very careful. But, as you said I was right.
Also, I can't even imagine why would Ennis be a gay! He fell in love with Jack, and I believe, had he not, he would've never ever look at other men!
The funny thing is that I can't even imagine why Ennis would NOT be gay. ;D Different POV.
The funny thing is that I can't even imagine why Ennis would NOT be gay. ;D Different POV.same for me ;D
- was he or not? who cares!
Was a long time ago i don't ask me this question ... Can someone have a sexual contact with other person of the same gender, without being gay... and more... could develop an emotional bond that first relationship? At the end I think Ennis was gay ... highly suppressed, but gay
Was a long time ago i don't ask me this question ... Can someone have a sexual contact with other person of the same gender, without being gay... and more... could develop an emotional bond that first relationship? At the end I think Ennis was gay ... highly suppressed, but gay
I think that it can - that 2 persons can have the sexual contact and emotional bond! And not being gay! :)What means to be gay anyway... because I am really confused on this matter, well i guess i am gay, but i really don't know can one person born as straight and turn into a gay on the way it's something than i've not discover yet :^^) :^^) :^^) :^^) :^^)
But it's only me! :i
What means to be gay anyway... because I am really confused on this matter, well i guess i am gay, but i really don't know can one person born as straight and turn into a gay on the way it's something than i've not discover yet :^^) :^^) :^^) :^^) :^^)
Well, I have some theories.... ::)Let me know it please :)
Let me know it please :)
What means to be gay anyway... because I am really confused on this matter, well i guess i am gay, but i really don't know can one person born as straight and turn into a gay on the way it's something than i've not discover yet :^^) :^^) :^^) :^^) :^^)
I don't know if Ennis was gay or not, but it's not about the label, but the love that matters to me.
Whatever his sexuality, Ennis Del Mar was in love with Jack Twist, and is attracted only to Jack Twist and no one else. He could perform his "duties" with Alma and Cassie, but not with passion, unless he was thinking about Jack.
It doesn't matter to me whether Ennis is gay or bi or whatever. What draws me to him is his constancy in love, his passion under the quiet exterior, and his yearning to be free even bound by a chain of fear.
To the world, he can be gay, straight, bi, closeted, whatever. To Jack Twist, Ennis Del Mar was simply the love that he couldn't, wouldn't ever quit.
What means to be gay anyway... because I am really confused on this matter, well i guess i am gay, but i really don't know can one person born as straight and turn into a gay on the way it's something than i've not discover yet :^^) :^^) :^^) :^^) :^^)
I don't know if Ennis was gay or not, but it's not about the label, but the love that matters to me.
Whatever his sexuality, Ennis Del Mar was in love with Jack Twist, and is attracted only to Jack Twist and no one else. He could perform his "duties" with Alma and Cassie, but not with passion, unless he was thinking about Jack.
It doesn't matter to me whether Ennis is gay or bi or whatever. What draws me to him is his constancy in love, his passion under the quiet exterior, and his yearning to be free even bound by a chain of fear.
To the world, he can be gay, straight, bi, closeted, whatever. To Jack Twist, Ennis Del Mar was simply the love that he couldn't, wouldn't ever quit.
You said a mouth full there MPJ!!! $) <quoted for emphasis>
Wish I would a thunk to said it first.
I rhink this is the most sensible and sensitive thing to say about all this;beyond all labels in human sexuality and general behaviour,is love what matters the most.From this point onwards,the sexuality of this love's subject is only a mere circumstance.
That is true in principle. But in real life, the gender of the person whom you love matters very much -- people have died and continue to die because of it. What you say is true, if only there is freedom to love anyone you choose. That NOT being the case, human sexuality and even labels matter a great deal and are not just mere circumstance that signify nothing.
You said a mouth full there MPJ!!! $) <quoted for emphasis>
Wish I would a thunk to said it first.
Thomas and Andrew; I think both of you are right...Very often,persons who belong to any concrete ethnic or whatever group,need to join themselves,as a way of recognising each other,and sometimes,to help each other too.Because difference,or the fear to difference,to the unknown,has been the "battle horse" that other persons included in "normal parametres" have used to marginalise,depict when not simply destroy who have this other label of "different".Surely for an unconscious fear of being in their innest self just like these ones...This and the power wishes have always been what have create and developed wars;the rich against the poor,the powerful against the weak,the "normal" against the "different".Maybe is something inherent with human being,but it's time to change it,or at least trying to change it.And sometimes one must begin for the semantic,as the first step to be free of labels and of what they mean.
What you say is true, tpe, about the circumstances, but NOT about the love. It is similarly true when applied to other labels of race, creed, etc. When we speak of labels, we speak not of the thing being labeled, but of the prejudices in us that cause us to label. It is what Immanuel Kant referred to in his distinction between noumenon and phenomenon. Our labels are our responses to the phenomenon, not the noumenon itself. "Gay" has nothing to do with the real Ennis, only our response to his love of Jack, a man. It says nothing about that love.
Labels are what get people killed, Protestants and Catholics, Communists and Fascists, Straight or Gay, etc. They divide people, when they should strife to understand one another. They group people into pigeon holes, when they should be setting people free - free of chains that tie them to stereotypes, free of boundaries that keep them from being whoever they want to be, free of limits that says they can do this but not that.
When we are free of labels, then we will be truly free, free at last.
Thomas and Andrew; I think both of you are right...Very often,persons who belong to any concrete ethnic or whatever group,need to join themselves,as a way of recognising each other,and sometimes,to help each other too.Because difference,or the fear to difference,to the unknown,has been the "battle horse" that other persons included in "normal parametres" have used to marginalise,depict when not simply destroy who have this other label of "different".Surely for an unconscious fear of being in their innest self just like these ones...This and the power wishes have always been what have create and developed wars;the rich against the poor,the powerful against the weak,the "normal" against the "different".Maybe is something inherent with human being,but it's time to change it,or at least trying to change it.And sometimes one must begin for the semantic,as the first step to be free of labels and of what they mean.
Hello lance!
I know that this is an old discussion between the two of us. ;)
But "love" itelf is a label. It matters that we call it "love", and not "sin" or "lust", as others would call it. The phenomenon is the same, but see how much of a difference the viewpoint makes.
It's not my position to insist whether or not "gay" is appropriate for Ennis or not. But I would say that it does matter.
"Labels" do matter very much. I don't think we can and I don't think we should be free of labels.
[...]
If a label is used to identify an individual as part of a group, then I'm fine with it. I'll carry it proudly on my shoulder. Only when a label is used for discrimination or a slur, or to diminish someone, then I'm against it. Labels are a necessary part of life and always will be. They are nothing more than for identifying something. Just about everything you see has a label, but most of the time, the object is more than just the label.
[...]
This strictly my opinion guys, so please bear with me. The question should be was Ennis queer, Ennis had no idea of what gay was. that phrase just wasn't in his head. We have to look at thought his POV.
I'm in the camp that think he was, and he knew he was. His rage came from that fact his unwillingness to confront or be his true self, he either couldn't deal i with it , ignored it, hid it, or thought there was no problem at all. he dealt with his frustrations in random jobs not staying long enough to get a foot hold on anything. his inability to control his anger, drinking alone, eating alone, being alone. His attempts to have relationships, that proved to be unfulfilled. I think from childhood he felt he was different, he somehow put up caution signs on his emotions, stuffing them down, avoiding them, but showing rage when he is faced with something that threaten his stoic persona. When he had to leave Jack that first summer, unwilling to deal that fact, started to rage at Jack and hit him, being confronted by Alma, again he raged.
it wasn't his need for man on man sex that tortured Ennis, he wanted it, needed it, loved it, it was the profound self hatred he had in a world that would kill him for being who he was. Maybe Jack suffered from the same thing, for twenty years he sought some kind of validation from Ennis, his going off to Mexico for paid sex, his supposed relationship with Randall, being a combines salesman, not only being the only combine salesman, but being the best, we see his constant search for validation where he could find it.
How must it feel to live in a world that doesn't accept, refused to accept who and what you are, on the sole basis of who you chose to love, and most importantly who you are. How much rage, self hatred can build in someone.
When Ennis said to Jack: "It's because of you Jack, I'm like this.", to me is saying, "how can i love you when i can't love myself", cutting off his true self again.
They love each other so much, but didn't love themselves enough to find the joy in that love, in a world that wouldn't let them, and would destroy them for it.
Just my two cents, thanks.
...How must it feel to live in a world that doesn't accept, refused to accept who and what you are, on the sole basis of who you chose to love, and most importantly who you are. How much rage, self hatred can build in someone...
I don't think that it was Jack's sexuality that made him a person who needed a validation.
He was doing comparatively well, being a gay person! The reason why he needed the validation was his father, who was never ever satisfied with him.... that's the main reason why he never felt accepted and why he was able to do anything to be accepted. OK, he also entered the wealthy world of Newsomes who didn't accept him too, and Ennis also never accepted him in the way he wanted to.... so he was doomed to be refused by everyone despite being so benevolent and caring person. But going to the beginning - it was his father who was the root of the problem. IMO, of course...
Oh, and yes! i don't think that he hated himself in the way Ennis did. He was willing to embrace things as they were.
I am not sure I agree with the verdict that Jack needs validation.
On the one hand, I agree with you that Jack's old man made Jack sensitive to male acceptance. It's why Ennis is so important to him. Ennis accepts him without qualification. The only problem is that Ennis cannot be with him all the time.
Jack's Ma accepted Jack and loved Jack unconditionally and I believe it is this love that made Jack the way he is, not the old man's rejection, or Newsome's, or the other cowboys'. Jack has a good sense of himself, and is willing to fight for what he wants. The rejection merely makes him want Ennis all the more. The scene at the child birth was telling. Immediately after old man Newsome cut down rodeo, throwing the keys at them, and Jack dropping them (unlike Ennis who caught the watch that Aquiere threw at him, not worth the bother to get up for him), Jack sent the postcard, thinking of Ennis and the magical moments on Brokeback Mountain, when they respected each other, and found companionship where none was expected.
The rejection pushed Jack, not pulled him.
The unconditional acceptance in SNIT is what draws Jack to Ennis, and to Bobby when the boy didn't know better. Once Bobby learned the snobbish way of the old man Newsome, once Ennis made clear that his acceptance out of bed had a leash attached, Jack was miserable.
To get back to topic, I suppose the need for male validation is what made Ennis and Jack desire and appreciate male companionship, but I doubt that made them gay.
Very good point, Jack's mother saw that the old man was withdrawn from his son, made up the difference, maybe by being overprotective of him, compensating for the loss of his father affection, showing love and tenderness, that Jack showed Ennis the SNIT. It was at that moment finally each man true self was shown.
Short lived though it was the SNIT is what takes hold of them, and what they search for years later. It doesn't matter how well Jack did, or how much Ennis struggled, they were living a life they presented to the world, the public validation of "straight" in order to survive, and killing off their true self. Finally Jack's unwillingness to go on with the denial of who he was and what he wanted and Ennis unwillingness even to acknowledge to himself he had deep feelings for Jack, that it caused him to breakdown, made that so clear in The Final Confrontation. Each man living two lives, their "Brokeback life", and their "straight life", and yearning for the "sweet life" was too hard to bear. IMO
The brilliance of their love shined in their infrequent couplings under the stars, in SNIT, or horseplay in broad daylight.
Jack's Ma was the nurturing mother to the Old Man's abusive father. The little moments when she showed love to Ennis encapsulated all those years when she gave Jack life, outside of the Old Man's abuse.
Yes, living the double life finally caught up with them, emotionally for Jack and financially for Ennis.
Yes, living this split life did affected Ennis deeply, financially and emotionally, the way he saw himself, he was what his father hated, killed for, and this was who he was. He kept Jack at a distance, but not too far away, only for times he felt he could give in to be with him, putting limits to his time with him. I think his biggest fear was succumbing to this need, and not be able to go back to his other life, that carefully made up persona he showed other people, because if he stay with Jack one day, one week longer, the flood gates would open and his true self would pour out, and he could never go back to that person he showed the rest of the world. IMO.
Good point manhattangirl. Ennis was hanging on to the last shred of his straight persona. He wasn't able to jump into the water that was his love for Jack.
All those years of homophobia, being told the waters had sharks and monsters and terrible things. That's the evil of bigotry, telling lies that turn a beautiful love into something dark and dirty.
The proverbial hic sunt dracones of ignorance.
The proverbial hic sunt dracones of ignorance.
and of self hate and fear. So unwilling to leave the shore.
Ignorance? I think Ennis was more confused. It's why Cassie at the diner helped him so much, to finally understand, to see that what he and Jack had was love.
"Ignorance" here should be taken in the antique term: of not knowing any better. It invariably leads to confusion. As when the map makers postulate the existence of monsters where nobody has ever tread.
The only known use of this phrase is in the Latin form "HIC SVNT DRACONES" (i.e. hic sunt dracones) on the Lenox Globe[1] (ca. 1503-07). The term appeared on the east coast of Asia. Earlier maps contain a variety of references to mythical and real creatures, but the Lenox Globe is the only known surviving map to bear this phrase. The classical phrase utilized by ancient Roman and Medieval cartographers used to be HIC SVNT LEONES (literally, Here are lions) when denoting unknown territories on maps.
Thanks lance for citing the wikipedia explanation. :)
It was unknown territiry to him, and he was certainly scared and confused.
That was the genius of Heath, who understood what gay men felt like facing what they feared, yet wanted. No actor has performed as well, in telling the story of a homophobic gay man, as Heath did.
And I think his sense of internal conflict goes beyond sexuality. There is something universal about it that touches us and reminds us of how hard it is to be human.
Thanks loreen.
After all, sexuality is a big part of the human experience. It's a pity that many people even today don't want to recognize this -- a significant part of who they really are.
:*( :*( :*(
Keep on talking please... ::) ::) ::)
________________________________
Sorry, couldn't resist! #) #) #)
Still, not so sure about it. People live in celibacy and they're doing fine... I hope so ???
Well, celebacy does not erase the reality of sexuality. Even eunuchs have sexual feelings.
I know I'm super late to this discussion, but why was there any doubt about Ennis' sexuality? Because of Alma and Cassie? In the book, he says something about liking it "fine" with women but that with Jack it was something else entirely. For me, it kinda closed the book on the question: gay but in denial and trying to be "manly" for the other man in his bed. But I've read a lot of essays that seem to want Ennis to be bi and I'm not sure why that's the case....why is Ennis better/worse/more understandable/less tragic/whatever if he was bi and not gay? Or am I missing the issue entirely?
Well, celebacy does not erase the reality of sexuality. Even eunuchs have sexual feelings.
I am of the opinion, that sexuality and love are not equivalent. It is easy to confuse sexual feelings with love, in today's media promoted climate of hypersexuality. However, Brokeback Mountain is not about sex; the movie is about love. The sexuality is merely a part of the backdrop, like the mountain. It, they, form the important setting, but are not the essence of the message, the theme of love. As discussed in the thread, "Sex, friendship and love" sex is merely a small part of the relationship between Ennis and Jack. It is certainly an important part, but not sufficient on its own. Focusing on the sexuality is to miss the point of love, and the friendship.
:s) I am dumb! ^*()
... about eunuchs I mean...
I know I'm super late to this discussion, but why was there any doubt about Ennis' sexuality? Because of Alma and Cassie? In the book, he says something about liking it "fine" with women but that with Jack it was something else entirely. For me, it kinda closed the book on the question: gay but in denial and trying to be "manly" for the other man in his bed. But I've read a lot of essays that seem to want Ennis to be bi and I'm not sure why that's the case....why is Ennis better/worse/more understandable/less tragic/whatever if he was bi and not gay? Or am I missing the issue entirely?
Well, the terminology "gay" appears to have different meanings/levels of significance to people, and I think that some of the discussion is rooted on our own individual notions of what it means to be gay.
But setting that aside, some people argue that Ennis never had any other relationship with a man. Personally, I don't think this really proves anything. And as in real life, we know that relationships with women and men doesn't necessarily prove bisexuality, especially in a repressed age...
I pretty much agree with your opinion, but it's clear that others see things differently.
The same can be said, relationships with men doesn't necessarily prove homosexuality. Indeed, if a label can be assigned based on a single occurrence, all manners of paradoxes arise. It is the basis of problems associated with the effort of Russell and Whitehead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica) It is the basis of Godel's Theorm. There are fundamental limitations to our language and logic. Membership in a class is a classic example of this limitation. Those who have the strongest faith in logic are the very ones who have trouble accepting its limitation. The philosophical implication of Godel's Theorm is clear, and yet scientists and mathematicians often ignore it nonetheless. They can do that because fuzzy logic is not always applicable in the physical sciences. Labels are basic elements in fuzzy logic, and it can be said that Ennis is a little gay, a little bi, a little asexual, or even a little straight. He lies outside of the strictly binary world of straight-gay, even the strictly base-3 world of straight-bi-gay.
The love that is Ennis is beyond atomization, beyond definition. It simply is.
That is true. But loving a man physically as well as emotionally usually does. This dual aspect is of course missing in all of Ennis's relationships with women.
Still, one can't exactly know for sure... This is just the way I look at it.
I am of the opinion, that sexuality and love are not equivalent. It is easy to confuse sexual feelings with love, in today's media promoted climate of hypersexuality. However, Brokeback Mountain is not about sex; the movie is about love. The sexuality is merely a part of the backdrop, like the mountain. It, they, form the important setting, but are not the essence of the message, the theme of love. As discussed in the thread, "Sex, friendship and love" sex is merely a small part of the relationship between Ennis and Jack. It is certainly an important part, but not sufficient on its own. Focusing on the sexuality is to miss the point of love, and the friendship.
Yes, I agree. It's all about love: pure, deep, true love. Ennis and Jack are soulmates who loved each other completely, and having sex with each other was just one of the ways they expressed their true love. Their sexuality for each other was merely an expression and extension of that love, making love with each other was a meaningful and sacred experience that strengthened their already deep bond. That is what matters and those who focus on sexuality are missing the entire point of the story.
We don't know that the emotional AND physical aspect of the relationship is missing in his relationship with women. All we know is that those aspects in his relationship with Jack dominates his life. The latter is a relative measure. The former, as you stated it, is an absolute measure. My point exactly regarding the fuzzy aspect of labels.
We simply don't know if Ennis was a zero or a 50 or a 100. All we know FOR SURE is that there is only one Jack in his life.
Well, my emphasizing the word "usually" implies that such as measure is never abolute.
But we can speak of probabilities, even when there is no absolute certainty. ;)
Fuzzy labels are not simple probabilities. They are in fact simultaneous labels. A glass can be BOTH half full AND half empty. A temperature can be BOTH cool and lukewarm. Ennis can be BOTH gay and bi and asexual or whatever.
The irony of precision in labeling is that the error is greater when the non-fuzzy label is made more precise. But we digress...Fuzzy logic is an interesting topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic
That is true. But loving a man physically as well as emotionally usually does [i.e., indicate homosexuality]. This dual aspect is of course missing in all of Ennis's relationships with women.
I am not sure how and why the subject of labels came up here one again... But let me quote myself:
There is nothing fuzzy about this -- whether or not you believe this applies to Ennis.
I think we can agree to disagree.
To me, Ennis in his honeymoon, playing with Alma in the snow, have SOME emotional connection. Who is to say he does not have SOME sexual connection with her, too? Just because Jack is his soul mate, it does not necessarily mean he does NOT have emotional and sexual connections with women. The two are not exclusive...the very basis of fuzzy labels...they do not follow Artistolean logic.
"Ennis is not gay." is to force Ennis into the definition of a label.
Hmm, I always thought of the Ennis and Alma playing in the snow scene as more of a brother/sister kind of thing than of someone he actually has romantic feelings for. I do believe that Ennis was attracted to men (just like Jack) and had known it long before he met Jack.
It was because of his father's and society's ingrained fear and homophobia that Ennis was afraid of those feelings, and hid them and tried to forget about them. I have a feeling that he had struggled with such feelings. Had Ennis never met Jack, it's true he would have never acted on his feelings, and therefore never had a romantic relationship with a man. He would have just lived the life that was expected of him (and missed out on true love of course), and probably would have grown old with Alma instead of divorcing her. But it doesn't mean that those feelings weren't inside Ennis somewhere.
I also believe that it was only his soulmate, Jack, who could bring those feelings and allow Ennis to act on his repressed homosexuality, otherwise he never would have, but like I said, that doesn't change or take away Ennis's feelings, they would have just been stowed away and repressed, just like before he'd met Jack. Of course, I despise labels, and I don't like tacking labels on people, that's why I never think of Brokeback Mountain as a "gay" movie, I think of it as a story about true love between two soulmates.
I'm not trying to label neither Ennis nor Jack, and their whole story is about their real, true, eternal love for each other and that is what must be focused on. I'm just saying that I do believe that Ennis had feelings for men, and that it had been a part of Ennis before he'd met Jack, he would have never acted on it though.
Also, the way Ennis loved was completely and wholly, and once he's found his soulmate, that's whom he's in love with. (Same with Jack, the other men in his life were only a distraction and a way of numbing his pain because he couldn't be with Ennis)
Ennis's relationship with Alma is seen by him as a duty, as what society expects of him, and therefore what he must comply with, because he feels he has no other choice in these circumstances.
Later Cassie comes along when he doesn't even want a relationship, she basically drags him into it, and it makes a good cover for him so he goes along with it. And remember, Ennis wasn't very sexual, it was only Jack who felt comfortable with sexually, because that sex was an expression of his very deep feelings and true love for Jack. I also believe Jack is the only one in the world whom Ennis could have such strong sexual feelings for as well.
Anyway when you look at the picture, it's clear that Ennis was for Jack and Jack was for Ennis and labels are unnecessary and meaningless.
I think we can agree to disagree.
To me, Ennis in his honeymoon, playing with Alma in the snow, have SOME emotional connection. Who is to say he does not have SOME sexual connection with her, too? Just because Jack is his soul mate, it does not necessarily mean he does NOT have emotional and sexual connections with women. The two are not exclusive...the very basis of fuzzy labels...they do not follow Artistolean logic.
"Ennis is not gay." is to force Ennis into the definition of a label.
I think of course of a lasting connection. Everything has its "honeymoon", but time is the true test, as well as tribulations.
For me, "gay" is just a label as "homosexual". As I have said previously, say "homosexual" to any person in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and they would immediately think of mental illness. That was why the term "gay" was introduced almost a hunderd years ago: to find a terminology that does not stigmatize the love of man for man as something akin to insanity. It is interesting to note how people now think "homosexuality" is the "proper" term.
What does this prove? It proves that "labels" are colored by how people of a specific age or a specific point of view want to interpret them.
I still believe that Ennis did have attractions/feelings for men before he met Jack, or he wouldn't have had that ability to love Jack in the way he did. If someone is heterosexual, but they never actually have a romantic relationship with anyone in this life, it doesn't mean they don't have the potential to do so and it doesn't mean they aren't attracted/have feelings for certain people of that gender. When Ennis met Jack, he had the potential to fall in love with him, and in fact couldn't have fallen in love with him had he not had that potential. But the story is about two souls loving each other, so that's what matters.
I really disagree that Ennis would have truly been happy with Alma had he never met Jack. No one except for Jack could bring out the real Ennis Del Mar. I think often people make the mistake of thinking Ennis was simple, but the truth is that he is very complex in so many ways. And only Jack Twist got to really know him. Everyone else couldn't figure him out. The saying that still run waters run deep rings very true for Ennis. There's far more than what you see with Ennis. Just because he's not talking, it doesn't mean he isn't thinking and feeling. Ennis would never be able to have the deep, powerful, and special bond and connection he had with Jack with Alma, or anything close to it.
And it's pretty obvious that his relationship with Cassie is extremely reluctant at first, and eventually became one of convenience as it provided a decent cover for a paranoid and fearful Ennis living alone in a place like Riverton after a divorce. I honestly don't believe that had there been no Jack, and had Ennis already divorced Alma, that Cassie would have had a chance either. Ennis would have probably just spent the rest of his life alone after his divorce in that situation. But of course I do think that Ennis wouldn't have divorced Alma had he never met Jack. He would have completely lived the life that was expected of him, and nothing more, nothing less. He would have endured it and kept his innermost thoughts and feelings hidden behind his facade. Ennis was someone who knew the rules and complied (unless he was with Jack).
It's clear that Ennis's fears about homosexuality run deep because of the way he was raised by his father, by what his father showed him at such a young and tender age, and because of the society in which he lived. I think all those factors left the young man Ennis confused and deeply afraid in coming to terms with his real self. Ennis must have had some feelings, or else he wouldn't have become so attached to Jack as he did that summer. I understand what you are saying about the fact that Ennis wouldn't be going out with men had he never met Jack, that's true. It's true that Ennis would have never acted on those feelings had he never met Jack, but I do strongly believe there was something already there, and young Ennis didn't really know how to deal with it so he kept it hidden and repressed. I believe the reason Ennis wasn't attracted to other men after he met Jack, is because he had found his true love, and for Ennis and the way he loved, that meant not being attracted to anyone who wasn't Jack. It is normal for a person who finds true love, who has found their soulmate, to no longer find anyone else attractive because of their strong feelings for that special person.
As for what Jack did, Jack the extrovert distracted himself and dealt with his pain in his way by having meaningless relationships with other men, Ennis, the introvert, dealt with his pain in his own way, quietly, and inwardly. The differences in how they dealt reflects the differences in their personalities. Again, the whole story is about true love, not about being "gay" or being "straight", whatever that's supposed to mean anyways. But what I'm saying is that just the way Ennis is, and the way he's afraid of his feelings in the very beginning the first summer on Brokeback Mountain, is revealing that this is a person who had been struggling on the inside for a while, knowing that he had feelings which conflicted with what the society he lived in expected from him. Had he never met Jack, all of that would have been hidden and repressed, and Ennis would have just been dutiful husband to Alma all his life, pushing any feelings back, neither happy nor sad, simply accepting what this life had handed him stoically, but his destined meeting and finding his soulmate, Jack, changed his life forever and in the end, makes him realize what his true feelings have been all along. But the bottom line is that it is a love story, and while we disagree on some points, I think we can all agree that it's about two souls who love each other deeply, truly, purely, and completely, and the tragedy is that they couldn't have the life they deserved together because of the circumstances they were in.
I think we under estimate the power of Jack on Ennis when we say Ennis would fall in love with another man if Jack never showed. My point is that Ennis fell for Jack and Jack alone precise because of the special connection between the two, and no other would fit like two shirts together. Ennis had the potential, only for Jack. Ennis is Jacksexual, not homosexual.
Agreed. And well-said. Not only did no one else figure out Ennis, more often than not, no one else bothered to look deeper. Jack was the one who respected him on the mountain, and out of that mutual respect, Ennis opened up, and said more words than he did in a year. That charmed Jack in ways that was deep and stirring. The look on his face, looking at Ennis, is priceless, a man in love. At that moment, they connected.
It's true that Ennis would never have truly fallen in love with anyone, man or woman, if he'd never met Jack. He would never be able to love someone in the way that he loved his soulmate. He could never make the bond he made with him with anyone else. But Ennis did have the potential to fall in love with a man before he met Jack, which is precisely the reason he was able to do so. Of course had he never met Jack, his world would have been limited, he would just have his life with Alma, and nothing else and live in his own insular world. It would take a man exactly like Jack, with all his qualitie, his exact same personality, and his looks as well to make Ennis fall in love with that man. Of course it would take the soul of Jack, and only one person had that, Jack, but that doesn't mean that Ennis didn't have the ability and potential to fall in love with the right man if he ever came along, (and in this case, he most certainly did). Had Ennis never had any homosexual feelings of any sort at all, then his relationship would Jack would have been brotherly, not romantic. But again, what matters is that Ennis loved Jack completely, his soul and all. Ennis had the potential for a man like Jack, and a man like Jack was rare and hard to find in this world, but Ennis was destined to meet him against all odds.
Yes that's very true, Jack was the only one who truly bothered to look deeper and who truly gave Ennis a chance, and sought to understand him, not just be stumped by his quietness and his demeanor. Jack was the only one who understood that Ennis had built a wall around himself to protect himself and shield himself from the world around him. He was the only one who actually looked inside Ennis and saw his beautiful soul that he kept hidden.
To answer that other question, I think it is only if that man were to be exactly like Jack, then yes Ennis would fall in love with that man. Of course, guys who are exactly like Jack don't come around very often especially not in the setting Ennis lived in. So would he have a met someone exactly like him? No, and therefore he would have just kept all that potential to truly deeply love a man hidden. But I believe Ennis was destined to meet Jack no matter what. There was no way that it could be avoided, and no circumstances could be able to stand in the way of them meeting. As for the question as to whether someone else could have set the real Ennis free, and if they had been a woman like Cassie, I don't believe she would have been able to. Ennis would not have been able to have the same deep, true, powerful, pure, and eternal love he has with Jack with someone like Cassie. If Cassie had come along and he'd never met Jack, Ennis could never open up to her or anyone else the way he opened up to Jack. While Cassie did share certain qualities with Jack, she wasn't exactly like Jack. It wasn't just fun and passion that made Ennis fall in love with Jack. There was something far more, something that made Ennis for the first time in his life feel loved and included and understood. I don't believe Cassie really had the potential to look deeper into Ennis, Ennis would have still felt like a stranger around her, as he did around everyone except for Jack. He lived within his own walls and his own inward thoughts and feelings and it was something he never showed to the world. No one knew anything about how Ennis truly felt inside, and who he truly is inside. Only Jack unlocked those iron gates and understood him, therefore only he knew the real Ennis, and only he had the potential to know the real Ennis.
Thanks, lancecowboy. And that sentence is beautifully said as well. Jack was the only one who could unlock the door to Ennis's heart. That's why they are truly soulmates, and were meant to find each other, and meant for each other.
I don't believe Ennis would have opened up to Cassie in the way he opened up to Jack, I believe Jack had the exact set of qualities and treated Ennis in the exact sort of way to make him open up, and that no other person could have done this, unless they were exactly like Jack, and of course Jack was very unique. Cassie, while her personality was similar in many ways to Jack, wasn't exactly like Jack, she was her own person with her own set of qualities, and not the exact set that brought out the ability and capacity of Ennis to love so truly and deeply. I don't believe either Ennis nor Jack was more or less "gay" than the other. I just believe they both had the potential to fall in love with a man, and they both had the ability and understanding of true love that enabled them to love so deeply and purely. And I'm glad that Ennis found his true love in this life, because although the circumstances they were in and although his fear made it difficult for them to be together, Ennis experienced something he would have never experienced in this life had Jack not come along. It was also something that enabled his soul to grow as well. It was destiny that their souls were brought together, it was meant to be. They are two human souls on a journey that's forever intertwined. Thanks again, lancecowboy. :)
You are welcome athena.
We can agree to disagree. I see Ennis and Jack as unique, both as individuals and as a couple. As I said, it is not just Jack as a person, but also their experience that summer on Brokeback, which made Ennis attracted to Jack, and opened up the way he did to Jack, SNIT and all that.
Cassie has the potential to be like Jack, but as you said, she isn't and Ennis and her are not.
I like that last sentence...They are two human souls on a journey that's forever intertwined. You bet. ^f^
I agree that labels color people's perception of themselves and the world around them, sometimes with devastating consequences. It is especially true with "I ain't queer." It is commendable for the Queer Nation to take back the meaning of the word, and turn a hateful weapon into a source of pride. However, by definition, this commendable process says a lot about the meaninglessness of labels. We are who we say we are, not what labels say we are. That is my point.
I don't profess to know the history of the words that describe men-men sex. There was also the discussion, about gay, homosexual, etc. Those words originally described only sexual relations, not love. We have extended the meaning to include loving relations, and that is the other point. Gay love evolved over the ages not because it did or did not exist back then, but because society did not perceive it, did not allow it, did not acknowledge it. Greek literature has male lovers yet they are often not called homosexuals but friends. Why? Because the labels don't fit the phenomenon. The phenomenon transcends the label. To force a square peg through a round hole is an exercise in futility, in my opinion.
On to a different topic, "Everything has its honeymoon." is an interesting assertion. It applies to Ennis and Jack as well.
We have discussed in other threads the evolution of their relationship, from the reunion to the days sitting around the fire, by the river, drinking and talking. Does that mean Ennis and Jack are falling out of love?
We also discussed the importance of friendship, of doing things together, sharing the same interests, 'em days on Brokeback Mountain when the two shared goals, overcame obstacles, together. Alma and Ennis grew apart because they shared different goals: she wanted more material comfort, he just wanted Jack (or to make it gender neutral Jane). Their marriage broke apart for many reasons, not just because Ennis was gay.
Ennis, before meeting Jack, was a ranch hand with indeterminate sexual preference. Once living life together with Jack on the mountain for a couple months, Ennis was gay. Shrodinger's cat is alive.
EnnisJack was a gay couple. Ennis by himself, is only half of a whole; gay or straight is irrelevant. Jack is gay because that's what he brings to the relationship, among other things. Jack is the man that opened the box and let out Ennis' cat.
Just to note that the term "gay" was not originally intended for just sexual relations.
It is famously used in a "notorious" poem written by Lord Alfred Douglas around 1894-1895, who was of course in the inner circle of Oscar Wilde. This is sometimes cited as one of the earliest uses of the term "gay" in the English language and explicitly refers to the word in the context of a man loving another man.
It is cited in the excellent book "The Secret Life of Oscar Wilde". I will try to find the poem online, if I can.
The end of a honeymoon doesn't of course imply falling out of love. But when hard realities kick in, a relationship has to weather more than just lovers' quarrels and disagreements. There is, of course, the reality of living a relationship within the context of the society they are embedded in. It requires as much of friendship as of love. And although Jack perhaps was the one who opened the box, he was as much emotionally and spiritually indebted to Ennis inasmuch as it was through Ennis that Jack found himself as both a lover and as a friend.
They are both unique, you're right. I don't believe one was more "gay" than the other, I believe they both had the potential to truly love a man, and they were each destined to find that man, which they did in each other. Their experience on Brokeback Mountain the first summer they met, gave them an ideal setting for their love to blossom. Neither one knew they would fall in love that summer when they first got there, but both of them left with their lives changed forever. It was the time in their lives that was right for them to meet each other. Their journey and their epic, true love go far beyond this life and far beyond this world as well. They are two souls who will always be together, and that's what matters. :)
I just realized, reading your statement, that it is not about which one is more gay, but rather, which one is more homophobic.
Ennis is definitely the one which is more homophobic.
That' s an interesting bit of "gay" history. I won't get into the precise moment when gay love was liberated in the literature. My point is NOT that it did not exist. My point is that mainstream society (not the gay people) viewed it differently. Again the perception thing. As late as the 80s, mainstream society still viewed gay culture as dominated by sex and promiscuity. Perceptions took a long time, and many courageous pioneers to change. The outing of athletes and prominent public figures helped. But I digress.
If Ennis was simply gay, and not Jacksexual, then they would've parted company and moved on to the next fornication, to use a phrase from "Later Days". Even Jack, in his attempt to move, couldn't quit Ennis. "I wish I knew how to quit you." speaks to the transcendental nature of their relationship.
This might be a digression, but I would like to comment that this is not exactly true. In England, despite stringent puritanical laws, homosexuality between men of the upper classes was not exactly viewed as dominated by sex and promiscuity. In fact, it was quite the opposite. And ironically, homosexual relationships in the context of the lower classes were implicitly recognized and (in some quarters) accepted/assumed. What was objected to were relationships between men of different classes -- which was considered subversive to the social order. In such cases, the law was selectively applied to punish the offenders.
And incidentally, the Code Napoleon in 19th century France recognized homosexual relationships early on -- implying that it wasn't just about casual sex and promiscuity, but something more stable and established.
Well, for me, to be "gay" doesn't mean that one moves from one fornication to the next. The stereotype here is again rooted in associating the origins and meaning of the term "gay" with the promiscuous aspects of the Sexual Revolution in the 1960s and 1970s, which I have already shown to be inaccurate.
The discussion has been moved from one context to the next.
You originally used "gay" in the generic context, so I responded in the sense of the big picture, i.e. historical for most cultures.
Then you jumped into the specific case of Oscar Wilde with Lord Alfred Douglas. And now expand to the upper British class. And then refer to your own view on "gay".
As I pointed out from the beginning, and you prove this very well, labels are imprecise and context dependent, and really can only be used as a guide for approximation. ANY attempt to make it precise and dominant is an exercise in futility.
No offense to the British, but their sexual frustration is well-known, not only in homosexual matters, i.e. public school boarding school hazing etc, but also in heterosexual matters. The phrase Victorian comes to mind. I don't think it is a fair application to use the British model to judge universal human qualities. I won't even get into the hypocritical class inequalities, where aristocracies get away with much more than the lower classes. Alan Turing was another victim of this system. But that's another topic.
As I said, the discussion is not about how gay people perceive the label gay, as much as how mainstream society perceive the label gay. As far as Ennis is concerned, he ain't queer, using the perception that his father, and society in general used the term. I am fairly certain Ennis had no knowledge of Oscar Wilde, or the Stonewall riot. He did mention something about Denver, so he was NOT totally ignorant, but that "gay" world is literally another world for him. Again, we return to the imprecision and ambiguities of labels.
We can continue to chase this circular argument over and over without conclusion, and miss the point of the movie. As Heath pointed out, the movie is not about two gay cowboys, but two SOULS in love. To chase after the gay angle is pointless. In my opinion. Why don't we chase after the ranch hand angle? Because it is not as glamorous as the cowboy angle. Why do we chase after the gay angle? Because it satisfy some need for validation. I am happy to accept Ennis the way he is, gay or not, cowboy or ranch hand, handsome or plain, old or young, whatever.
A soul has no material qualities. Just my two cents.
Most cultures? If I recall correctly, only the Judeo-Christian tradition had any moralistic problems about homosexuality. In Asia, they are wont to say that homosexuality had never been a moral issue for them.
Labels are imprecise? ALL language is an approximation of abstract concepts. Should we drop using words just because they don't capture the full meaning of thease concepts? Strictly speaking, EVERY word in EVERY language is a LABEL.
Well, I am in the opinion that the soul and the body are tied intrinsically with each other -- a very Greek concept, I would say. But I think I know what you mean.
Let us leave it at that. I have expounded so many times what I think is the futility of this discussion about "labels", because for me, it does not hold water -- from the standpoint of history or linguistics. Such a bias has no foundation, IMO.
When you say "moral", it appears to be equivalent to "religious" in which case, you mean Judeo-Christian, but that applies to Muslims, too.
However, if "moral" refers to a broader social aspect of "accepted correct behavior", then Asian cultures also have deep roots against/discriminate against homosexuality. No matter how you slice it, the label carries negative/undesirable meaning that no one would choose to be gay. The point here, is homophobia, the fear of being something you are. And more generically, as Tony pointed out in another thread, it is about fear of love. Ennis was tormented by his fear of love, and his yearning for love. That is the point of the movie.
Agreed. It is why logic expositions using words/labels often fail where a short poem or a work of art can convey volumes. It is the very nature of words/labels that restrict them from expressing what are meaningful and important. Poetry transcends logic, and conveys sublime abstract concepts using fuzzy labels. It is when labels are fuzzy, and treated as such, that the power of language is fully realized. To wish to make labels more precise, to insist on precision, is to fall into the trap of the logicians and many other sophist and philosophers who became more concerned about the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin, instead of appreciating the glory and beauty of angels.
Yes, we can agree to disagree and leave it at. I am thankful for this forum for opportunities to exchange different ideas, because the process helps me to learn, and to see more clearly. ^f^
This is debatable. The funny thing is that I have had such a conversation with my Chinese friends who insist that Chinese civilization has never discriminated againt homosexuals (and I pointed out a few "exceptions" to this.) There is certainly NO exception in Japan, where the love of man for man was considered the preserve of Samurai and Buddhist monks -- as a more "healthy" alternative to the "effeminate" love for a woman.
And we haven't even talked about India. The Kama Sutra is of course documents both heterosexual and homosexual practices, and does not pass "moral" judgement on either one.
And of course, much of Classical Greek/Roman/Persian/Near-Eastern civilizations didn't discriminate. Even in Medieval Islam, during the so-called "Golden Period", homosexuality was much more accepted (as was the drinking of wine, for instance) and even celebrated (c.f., Rumi, the 1001 Nights, the Gulistan, etc.)
Yes, we can certainly agree to disagree here. I do see and understand your point of view. :) Thanks for keeping the discussion lively and interesting!
I don't know about Japanese and Indian practices. But since you mentioned about Monks and Samurais, I do recall Boswell wrote about early Christian monks permitting homosexual relations, and even covenants for couples. Romans and Celts also had homosexual warriors, called berserkers. These might have been accepted as special cases, but they were never part of mainstream society. In other words, you could never be homosexual and lead a normal life, as a merchant, or scholar, or king, for example. We tend to forget, in today's society full of freedom, that in the old days, freedom was a precious commodity that was privy to the privileged few. Everyone else were to follow the rules of society.
While looking up the meaning of cognitive maps, from another discussion, I also found the meaning for fuzzy cognitive maps, and their many applications. Your assertion that imprecise labels and fuzzy concepts carrying more weight than precise labels don't hold water, seems to be misplaced faith on the power of human reason.
Computers have a lot of precision, but they don't have understanding, precisely because labels, when precise, fail to capture the essence of the human experience. The word gay, simply is misleading and the question "Is Ennis gay?" is simply missing the point. The relevant question is, "Is Ennis homophobic?" and of course, the answer is a resounding yes. "Does Ennis love Jack?" Again the answer is yes. And finally, "Is the conflict between his homophobia and his love for Jack the force that destroyed his marriage and his chances for the sweet life?" The answer to the former is maybe, while the answer to the last is certainly.
I assert that it is not his sexuality but his fear and yearning for love, the love that he found in Jack, more than anywhere else, which tormented Ennis, even to the end.
There is certainly some evidence to support what you said regarding Christian monks. The famous example is the school of Alcuin of York at the court of Charlemagne. They even left a body of homoerotic verse that is quite beautiful.
It's really hard to tell what happened in the monasteries -- the rule of celebacy cam rather late with priests, but it took root very early in the monasteries, to be sure. But one wonders whether celebacy included same-sex intimacy -- the same way that the Cluniacs allowed for lard even though the monastic rule explicitly forbad the eating of meat.
Well, I do believe that labels are always approximates and that they change meaning over time. And this has always been the premise in much of "exact" sciences, anyway.
And yes, I do agree that Ennis was homophobic...
Finally, I believe that it was both his sexuality and his fear to love -- for me,both are intrinsically bound to each other.
After the twelfth century Christian tolerance and acceptance of gay love seems to disappear with remarkable rapidity. The writings of St. Aelred disappeared because they were kept locked up in Cistercian monasteries until about eight years ago, when for the first time Cistercians could again read them. Beginning about 1150, for reasons I cannot adequately explain, there was a great upsurge in popular intolerance of gay people. There were also at this time violent outbursts against Jews, Muslims, and witches. Women were suddenly excluded from power structures to which they had previously had access-no longer able, for example, to attend universities in which they had previously been enrolled. double monasteries for men and women were closed. There was suspicion of everyone. In 1180 the Jews were expelled from France.
The change was rapid. In England in the 12th century there were no laws against Jews and they occupied prominent positions, but by the end of the 13th century, sleeping with a Jew was equated with sleeping with an animal or with murder, and in France Jews, according to St. Louis, were to be killed on the spot if they questioned the Christian faith. During this time there are many popular diatribes against gay people as well, suggesting that they molest children, violate natural law, are bestial? and bring harm to nations which tolerate them. Within a single century. between the period of 1250 and 1350, almost every European state passed civil laws demanding death for a single homosexual act. This popular reaction affected Christian theology a great deal. Throughout the 12th century homosexual relations, had, at worst, been comparable to heterosexual fornication for married people, and, at best, not sinful at all. During the 13th century, because of this popular reaction, writers like Thomas Aquinas tried to portray homosexuality as one of the very worst sins, second only to murder.
I think Ennis also responded, in his own limited fashion, to Cassie, who also looked deeper to see more than the stoic cowboy.
I don't think we will ever know for sure if Ennis would have been happy with Cassie, if he never met Jack. Would have, and hypothetical are not very meaningful.
I think there was a special bond between Ennis and Jack not only because of the men themselves, but also the circumstances on that mountain. The shared experiences drew them closer together like no other. If Ennis and Cassie were to share similar experiences, for example, running a bar together in town, or whatever, the experience may help them to bond. We will never know.
Late to this discussion but in my view, Cassie was a disguise. I saw nothing about her that was anything like Jack. The only similarity was that she, like Jack, reached out and pierced Ennis' shield. But otherwise, Cassie was FEMALE and Jack was MALE. Only if Ennis was "bi" could Cassie have a shot at meaning to Ennis anything like what Jack did. And that Ennis could simply walk away from Cassie, that he could simply ignore her and go back in his shield tells me that Cassie was simply a diversion, a last ditch effort at being "normal" and Jack's last speech to him finally showed him for what he was: queer. So if Ennis hadn't met Jack, would he have been happy with Cassie? No. Because he'd still be in a crap marriage with Alma. Alma only drew away from Ennis and the marriage after seeing her husband making out with another man and quitting jobs to spend his only vacation times with that man (and not her and their kids). So no Jack, no failed marriage, no Cassie. On a side note, Cassie was one sentence in the short story...further highlighting her lack of importance to Ennis or the story.
Late to this discussion but in my view, Cassie was a disguise. I saw nothing about her that was anything like Jack. The only similarity was that she, like Jack, reached out and pierced Ennis' shield. But otherwise, Cassie was FEMALE and Jack was MALE. Only if Ennis was "bi" could Cassie have a shot at meaning to Ennis anything like what Jack did. And that Ennis could simply walk away from Cassie, that he could simply ignore her and go back in his shield tells me that Cassie was simply a diversion, a last ditch effort at being "normal" and Jack's last speech to him finally showed him for what he was: queer. So if Ennis hadn't met Jack, would he have been happy with Cassie? No. Because he'd still be in a crap marriage with Alma. Alma only drew away from Ennis and the marriage after seeing her husband making out with another man and quitting jobs to spend his only vacation times with that man (and not her and their kids). So no Jack, no failed marriage, no Cassie. On a side note, Cassie was one sentence in the short story...further highlighting her lack of importance to Ennis or the story.
Late to this discussion but in my view, Cassie was a disguise. I saw nothing about her that was anything like Jack. The only similarity was that she, like Jack, reached out and pierced Ennis' shield. But otherwise, Cassie was FEMALE and Jack was MALE. Only if Ennis was "bi" could Cassie have a shot at meaning to Ennis anything like what Jack did. And that Ennis could simply walk away from Cassie, that he could simply ignore her and go back in his shield tells me that Cassie was simply a diversion, a last ditch effort at being "normal" and Jack's last speech to him finally showed him for what he was: queer. So if Ennis hadn't met Jack, would he have been happy with Cassie? No. Because he'd still be in a crap marriage with Alma. Alma only drew away from Ennis and the marriage after seeing her husband making out with another man and quitting jobs to spend his only vacation times with that man (and not her and their kids). So no Jack, no failed marriage, no Cassie. On a side note, Cassie was one sentence in the short story...further highlighting her lack of importance to Ennis or the story.
Certainly, Cassie in the movie was an amplification of the character suggested in the ss.
I think I gave similar views in another (?) thread regarding Cassie -- that she was a "disguise", as you put it. I think part of Ennis's redemption in the end was his realization that he couldn't go on with the relationship with Cassie, and that while his withdrawal hurt her, it probably spared her a great deal of pain in the long run.
I don't think Ennis was trying to spare Cassie when he stopped returning her calls and messages. He was simply running away from what he realized was not for him. He knew, after the final confrontation that he could never quit Jack. And as long as he was with Jack, he couldn't make another relationship work. I think he was ready to meet Jack in November and propose to make a go with the cow and calf operation, now that the child support is almost done. He was freer to do as he pleased.
The shock on Ennis' face at the diner facing Cassie's speech, "A girl don't fall in love with fun." showed that Ennis wasn't thinking about love, nor hurting Cassie's feelings. Ennis was probably surprised that he was worthy of Cassie's love. The loner that kept to himself, saying little most of the year, probably never thought love was something that would come into his life. At that moment of recognition, that Cassie loved him, that he was love-able, he was not only thinking of the hurt he caused Cassie, but also how he wished it was Jack, that perhaps, he and Jack could love each other. At that moment, he knew the thing with no reins, the thing that neither he nor Jack could quit, was love. That's why he sent the postcard to Jack, so that Jack knew he expected to meet in November, even though he was powerless to meet in the summer.
It is why, I believe, the insertion of Cassie at the diner in the movie, made the story better than the original short story.
I think you're right on this one. Cassie left messages that were never responded to. She just happened to run across him by accident. Ennis not really being empathic to Cassie feelings, just didn't reply to her messages or even try to see her. Remember he even had doubts when he talked of her to Jack that last week they were together. For me, i think Ennis really didn't understand his feelings for Jack until he saw Cassie, it was then he understood, or accepted, and even wanted it to be Jack in his life. JMO
I think you and I are on the same wavelength, manhattengirl.
After watching the story of Christian and Oliver in the German show, Verbotene Liebe - Forbidden Love, I have changed my mind about Ennis. http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=15724.msg961032#msg961032
It occurred to me that if Ennis had met Cassie first, as Christian did with Coco, and then meet Jack afterward as Christian did with Oliver, Ennis would still end up with Jack. This would mean Ennis and Christian are gay by virtue of their soulmates being men. If they never met that singular male soul mate, they might as well be straight, it makes no difference. In other words, the labels we use are insufficient to contain the larger concept of true love.
If Ennis met Jack, then he is gay, but if he never met Jack, he is as well as straight.
Jack is the hand of love that opened Schrodinger's box, and let out Ennis' cat, alive and well. Until Jack comes along, we cannot say if the cat is alive or dead, just as Ennis' marriage, or straight relationships. In a sense, both Ennis and Christian were characters which are malleable, molding themselves, devoting their lives, to those of their partners. Without a soulmate, they were simply existing. With a soul mate, each became alive.
I have to admit, I never gave a thought to Ennis's encounter with Casie as something significant in his understanding of Jack's feelings...
But after reading your and MG posts here, I am thinking that it is very possible that in his mind, Ennis connected Jack and Casie! They were both after him in a way. They both wanted him near, and he was refusing both, for different reasons though. But when he heard Casie mentioning the word "love", he probably thought - "Now, isn't it the same with Jack? He also wants to be with me...doesn't that mean that he loves me? And if his feelings for me are love, than mine are too!" He got the truth right there...
Yup! Now this scenario is much more clear and acceptable in my head! ^-^
%&) It took me a year to get here! ^*()
Beautifully said, Loreen.I quote this,although maybe I win you both in time to get here... ^*() Speaking seriously,I agree with what Lance says in another thread;that Ennis would have been straight during all his life by being married,a happy and devoted husband and father.But that if he had met his soulmate in another man afterbeing married,he had became gay,maybe,almost surely his real and deepest way of being and feeling.The problem in Ennis is that,whereas this young man in the German TV movie,breaks up with his girlfriend to be responsible with what he feels,Ennis had never accepted this,what has meant his and their tragedy.
It only took me two years to get here. ::)
I quote this,although maybe I win you both in time to get here... ^*() Speaking seriously,I agree with what Lance says in another thread;that Ennis would have been straight during all his life by being married,a happy and devoted husband and father.But that if he had met his soulmate in another man afterbeing married,he had became gay,maybe,almost surely his real and deepest way of being and feeling.The problem in Ennis is that,whereas this young man in the German TV movie,breaks up with his girlfriend to be responsible with what he feels,Ennis had never accepted this,what has meant his and their tragedy.
i think that the beauty of this love story is that they were just two souls who fell in love with each other and shared a connection - soulmates - but who were tragically kept away from each other by cruel circumstances and their own time, as well as society of course.
their souls fell in love, so really their bodies dont matter (that sounds really weird, but what im getting at is that it didnt matter what gender or sexual orientation they were because of their love, and if they had been a man and a woman they probably would still have fallen in love, only they would probably have lived longer happier lives together).
It doesn't sound weird to me. Not at all. In fact, I think it is the essence of love when it transcends all the physical parameters we place so much importance, from race, to sex, to religion, to family background, to social class. All the great love stories are about the love that transcends or the attempt to transcend these physical barriers. It is the failure to overcome these barriers that give rise to tragedy. So ideally, their bodies don't matter. But realistically, every love story has to overcome its physical limits. It can be as simple as the outward appearance of the lovers. Love is blind and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but often we have expectations of what Mr. Right looks like, and any deviation, no matter how small or minor or irrelevant, may keep us from the love of our life. It can be as monumental as the social taboo against same-sex, or different-race or different family backgrounds, but the glory of true love is in its triumph over impossible obstacles.
...
Ask him if he was queer, he'll knock you on your ass,but there was real pain that last meeting with Jack, He was facing what he was, and losing Jack at the same time.
Was Ennis gay? I don't care, he just loved this guy called Jack.
thanks for listening to me.
Annie wrote him as a homophobic gay man......Yes, Rimasworld, that's true. But it got more messy. She also said Heath Ledger knew Ennis better than SHE did, and Heath, at first, said he played the role as a homophobic straight man who had the misfortune to find himself in love with another man. He beat a hasty retreat when there was some kind of outrage from the gay community, who wanted a different theme, AP's original one.
Yes, Rimasworld, that's true. But it got more messy. She also said Heath Ledger knew Ennis better than SHE did, and Heath, at first, said he played the role as a homophobic straight man who had the misfortune to find himself in love with another man. He beat a hasty retreat when there was some kind of outrage from the gay community, who wanted a different theme, AP's original one.
It's not so easy to settle this one. After all, if it was, the "Was Ennis Gay?" threads would never have been the hottest threads on every BBM forum. IMO, the issue will still be there 30 years from now, for people tuning in to the late movie and seeing it for the first time. Which is, I think, just great!
Yup. You bet. Human sexuality will still be as complex and complicated 30 years from now. Some humans like to have everything all cut up and fitted into pigeon holes according to some neat category. Human sexuality defies categorization. Ennis defies categorization. That's what makes him such a memorable character.
Just for the record, I'm not one of those humans.. I kind of like the grey areas of life that make you think things over again & again...
A straight homophobic man falls in love with another man, a self hating gay homophobic falls in love with a man, repressed gay man outed by love of another man, love can be such a pain in the ass.
A straight homophobic man falls in love with another man, a self hating gay homophobic falls in love with a man, repressed gay man outed by love of another man, love can be such a pain in the ass.
;D Letting aside the laughs,I think it's a good definition of Ennis ¡.And I'd add that he was a man who,due to some concrete circumstances,fell in love with someone of his same sex,in spite of himself and without being able to define himself as openly gay.
He doesn't have to admit his sexuality at all. He big thing is he loves Jack, to face that one fact is his biggest problem. He loves this man, he wants sex with this man, he doesn't want to lose what he has with this man. The underlying thing is Jack is a man, acceptance of his lover is the issue (to me anyway), and Ennis torn feelings are Jack has a male organ which is a no-no, Ennis desires for him which is a bigger no-no, and the fact that this is against everything he was , and taught to believe (sorry for being so explicit, I don't mean to disrespectful to you).
In the final meeting, Ennis said to Jack, it was because of him he was like the way he was. He was sexually and emotionally hung up on this guy. Ennis was confused, scared, lonely without him, and hated himself for feeling this way, and also not having the courage that Jacks seems to have for changing it.
I see exactly what you're saying, myprivatejack, it make perfect sense to me.
myprivatejack,
Of course,I haven't thought you have been disrespectful with me nor with anybody else...There're some things that must be called by their real name,if we don't want to be considered as timorous...The fact is that Ennis doesn't have to admit his sexuality,but he isn't able to do it either.The problem,as you say,is that Jack had this big no-no(I have to suppose it was big... >:D ) and that this no-no was what gave him pleasure and made him feel love.What was too much for him ¡.
myprivatejack,
Thank you for being so sweet, and so funny. When you said that Ennis was not able to admit his sexuality is so right. It was like in the last meeting, Jack couldn't bring himself to say to Jack "I love you", but he had to hold on to him, getting so pissed that even the "thought" that Jack was with someone else that he could see himself killing him. It shows the conflict within him. Its so amazing how he didn't go nuts by than.
thanks again for so kind to me here ^f^
This is a really great point - about Ennis's own internal struggle, his great battle between what he wants and what he denies himself. :c)
But I think that the whole "what I don't know, all them things I don't know, could get you killed if i come to know them..." speech was just a bunch of empty words. IMO Ennis was really just letting off some steam because of the "build up of incendiary rage" (to quote AP) that he felt about their whole situation.
Ennis knows deep down that he would be a wreck if anything happened to Jack, and he had to face this knowledge unexpectedly when Jack did die.
Ennis was in love with Jack, and he could never bring himself to harm, let alone kill, his one true love, although sometimes he probably wished he could just not give a damn about what happened to Jack.
Great points,Maddy and Andrew ¡ I also believe that the root of Ennis problem was between what he wants and what he denies to himself,as you say Maddy;that it's the same than saying that between what he had been taught to feel and what he really felt.What had been a terrifying ghost during all his life got incarnated in someone real,who he fell in love with;the ghost of the homosexuality and the horrible effects it could have in who practised it.What an appalling paradox of life,no?. :-\\
As regards to the apparent contradiction of Ennis being unable to stop meeting Jack but being unable either to stand the idea of Jack making love with someone else,I think that it's a mixture of what you say,Andrew.On one hand,he was jealous of any other man who could take Jack away from him,as a person in love that he was;IMO,one of his anguishes is to think that,before so many denies of this "sweet life",Jack could perfectly look for another partner who offered it to him without so many doubts as Ennis.I think it makes a perfect sense...But,one the other hand,maybe he had sometimes the thought of associate Jack's "gayness" with his own;Jack wasn't only a man who had fallen in love "by chance" with another man,but a "real" gay.So,from that reality to think and accept that he also was a "queer" there's only a few steps.I think you have indicated it very well,even if I think there was in his reaction more love than fear of seeing himself like a gay.But,doubtless,Ennis would have been a good sample for psychologist work ¡. ::)
Great points,Maddy and Andrew ¡ I also believe that the root of Ennis problem was between what he wants and what he denies to himself,as you say Maddy;that it's the same than saying that between what he had been taught to feel and what he really felt.What had been a terrifying ghost during all his life got incarnated in someone real,who he fell in love with;the ghost of the homosexuality and the horrible effects it could have in who practised it.What an appalling paradox of life,no?. :-\\
As regards to the apparent contradiction of Ennis being unable to stop meeting Jack but being unable either to stand the idea of Jack making love with someone else,I think that it's a mixture of what you say,Andrew.On one hand,he was jealous of any other man who could take Jack away from him,as a person in love that he was;IMO,one of his anguishes is to think that,before so many denies of this "sweet life",Jack could perfectly look for another partner who offered it to him without so many doubts as Ennis.I think it makes a perfect sense...But,one the other hand,maybe he had sometimes the thought of associate Jack's "gayness" with his own;Jack wasn't only a man who had fallen in love "by chance" with another man,but a "real" gay.So,from that reality to think and accept that he also was a "queer" there's only a few steps.I think you have indicated it very well,even if I think there was in his reaction more love than fear of seeing himself like a gay.But,doubtless,Ennis would have been a good sample for psychologist work ¡. ::)
Thanks :cr)
I think it is interesting to also point out, however, that Jack's true sexual orientation, if any specific one is applicable to him, is just as debatable as Ennis'.
I know that most people tend to assume that Jack was definitely gay whereas Ennis was perhaps not, but I do have my doubts...
Firstly, Jack only really ever started chatting up other men as a method of coping with not being able to have Ennis, the one thing he wants more than anything in the whole wide world. You could say that he was simply using other men as a sort of meagre "substitute" for Ennis.
Secondly, in the climax scene of the movie, when Jack says "...for needing something that I don't hardly never get!", it is understandable that most people would think he is referring sodomy, or just intimacy with other men. While this is understadable given the context, I would say that it is also just as plausible that he means Ennis - the thing that he needs but never gets is in fact Ennis himself. Therefore, in an attempt to combat this lust he goes after other men. Of course, it is never the same, but that is really the only coping mechanism Jack had in such a homophobic era and place.
Ennis and Jack were not just two random gay cowboys. They were starcross'd lovers, kept apart cruelly by chance and cold hard circumstance and human indecency. Therefore it is fair to say that maybe neither character was really "gay" at all. After all, this movie is all about transcending labels and boundaries, so why then should the two main characters be stifled by labels like gay, bi or straight...?
<^(
No need to apologize BA, that's why we are here, to share what's on our mind and heart with each other. You said yours beautifully.
I agree with the liberating aspect of owning one's own uniqueness. Gay Pride, Black Pride, Latino Pride, Irish Pride, etc. What I caution is simply to not allow one aspect defines the whole person. We can be gay AND Black AND Latino AND Irish all at the same time. It is the cutting apart of different aspects, isolating one from another, which I find disturbing.
It is indeed, as you said, an easy way out sometimes, to use label to categorize experiences and people, but it is VERY important, in my humble opinion, that we acknowledge that the label is an approximation of the real thing. No label can be true, by definition, if 100% accuracy is what we mean by true.
Yes, Gay Pride is an easy way to embrace self-acceptance, but it is the other parts of the self which also need accepting, and sometimes, all too often left on the roadside by the gay liberation movement. We need to accept Self, gay or not. Self Pride. :c)
Great point LC
...labels are so inadequate when defining a human being. The thing is, we CAN be more than just one, as you said. And even if we do fit even a few labels, they still dont sum us up entirely. Thats the beauty of humanity - we're so intricate and detailed, we cannot be summed up by labels.
I must ask, therefore, what is the point of having labels if they dont do their job anyways? We label things so that we can have the false sense of security which is gleaned by understanding our world entirely (something which in truth is impossible). Labels were designed for this purpose - so that we may feel safer in supposedly understanding our world completely. But the truth is, we can never understand the world or human beings fully, so then the whole purpose of the labelling system is defeated.
I love the way you expressed the idea of label's limitation...inadequate, and the beauty of humanity...intricately detailed beyond description. :t)
Labels, like language, were invented to give humanity power over the surrounding, over all things. We use language to communicate ideas, to pass on knowledge from one generation to another. It is absolutely essential and the defining quality of humanity. Labels work great with simple things, like chair, table, concrete, and even with abstract thought to some extent, like happy, sad, angry. However, as you pointed out, language in its current state of development is inadequate to describe the intricate complexity of humanity, especially in the area most defy description, the area of poets and philosophers, the qualities of love, of soul. Any attempts to force a precise description is as you said so well...inadequate. Great writers and great artists can endow greater powers to their words and images, as Annie and Ang Lee had done in Brokeback Mountain, but mere mortals like us, simply do not have the words, or labels, no matter how hard we emulate.
Thank you, maddy. You put what I have believed for so long, into a framework of clarity. That's what I love about this place. :c) ^f^
Ennis was gay, he fighted against it all his life because his dad traumatized him when he was a boy (the dead Earl scene). A few hints... the reunion kiss scene, he initiated the kiss and what a kiss it was. :d)
The first ''fishing trip'', the whole scene on the mountain, Jack caressing his ear and cheek at the end of the scene... Ennis doesn't push him back.
The flashback scene from their last encounter, once again he is the initiator tought this scene is maybe an intimate moment but nothing sexual, he was just happy to held his lover (and was obviously in love).
The two shirts scenes, the first one when he finds the shirts... :-\\ :\'( The last scene, still with the shirts... Jack I swear... :\'( :\'( :\'(
What was it? I swear I loved you, I swear I regret... I don't want to go off topic but IMO Ennis was gay, he was just the victim of his epoch, life experience and education. I know it's sad :(
Hi guys, thanks for waking this up, I’ll jump in. To quote one of our famous Usonian Presidents (go ahead, Google it) “it all depends on what the meaning of is, is”. Or, it all depends on what your meaning of GAY, is. This is not a little question; for some the word itself has a significant and highly important meaning – especially for those of, or in, the gay community.
Not to belabor the point, but – to me there can be no doubt Ennis was homosexual, by definition. He had sex, repeatedly, with a man, and even admitted fantasizing about having sex with a man. “I wrung it out a hundred times thinkin’ about you”. I feel this shows he not only liked it, he knew he liked it, and wanted Jack to know he liked it.
But “gay”?, hmmm. Having lived in San Francisco in the late 1970s, when the word “gay” was directly and specifically meant to mean not only homosexual - but also, proud, liberated, out, and unashamedly queer, GAY was used to reflect a view, a new view, of the liberated homosexual community. Ennis was IMHO in no way “gay”. He exhibited none of those traits. Ennis Delmar in the Gay Pride parade? Huh?
You hit the nail right on the head, rdx...that Ennis felt passion only with Jack and no other. O0 That's a good measure of sexuality, passion.
Addressing homosexuality as a modality of loving' desire, Ennis is gay or homosexual.Agreed.
Ennis is a man, he loves another man: Jack, her unique and true love;
he not love Alma,I think Ennis loved Alma and the girls in his own way, but without passion.
her affair with Cassie is to cover up for to her homosexuality.Ennis did not seek out Cassie. He even tried to discourage her...imagine trying out a pick up line like, "I was castrating calves earlier." ::) But he had no reasonable way to fend her off, and he was lonely. Even Junior recognized this and suggested that she move in with him so he would not be so lonely, and be susceptible to Cassie or any other woman's advances.
Ennis is scared, afraid that people know that he is homosexual.That's the point. He is homophobic.
Ennis a homophobic gay man? I cannot watch Ennis like this, he is scared to much by homophobia, to feel homosexual, but homophobic?
I thought ^*()
Good point of viewIt is difficult for any straight actor to play a homosexual man, but to play a homophobic homosexual man to the degree of perfection that made Ennis real, was Heath's genius.
That's the point. He is homophobic.
Was he really homophobic? I just got it as far as that he can't accept it himself, but doesn't have any (negative) feelings towards other gay men.
Like with most other people, he's like 'Live and let live'.
Was he really homophobic?. . .What is homophobic? To quote the not always infallible Wikipedia:
What is homophobic? To quote the not always infallible Wikipedia:
Homophobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality and people identified or perceived as being homosexual. Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear. Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of a perceived non-heterosexual orientation.
. . . . The word homophobia first appeared in print in an article written for the May 23, 1969, edition of the American tabloid Screw, in which the word was used to refer to heterosexual men's fear that others might think they are gay. (my bolds)
It would seem by these admittedly broad definitions, Ennis was indeed homophobic.
An' here I always thought it was a cellphone with built in pen for queers. ;)
Great posts, You guys have me thinking, the definition given of "the homophobic gay" seems to me, fits Ennis's father perfectly. The repressed self hating homosexual who engages in anti gay crimes to show how straight he is.
What kind of self-hate does it take to tie a man by his penis, the object of arousal and want, the ultimate symbol of maleness, and than drag him at a back of pickup till its pulled off. How homophobic gay can one get? How homophobic gay does one need to be to do that kind of crime in that particular way?
Ennis was the next victim of the "homophobic gay", who proudly shows his sons his handiwork. Because Earl shows his "gayness" and this what happens to men who dare to do that. Victims of this hate was not only Rich and Earl, but Ennis too. Ennis's father was not only a "homophobic gay", murderer, but a child abuser to boot.QuoteI agreeEnnis could of followed that same path, he could of killed Jack that first night, but he didn't.QuoteMerely, he doesn't do it because he isn't a homophobic man. He made it very quite clear in the tent scene; It is surprised, but he does not loosen, does not repel Jack. This is more explicit in SS by AP "...and heThere was something inside him that prevented it from doing such a thing. Maybe it was Jack's love for him, the love he had for Jack or both. Anyway there was something the old man couldn't kill off.
wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect
c*ck. Ennis jerked his hand away as though he'd touched fire, got to his
knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours
and, ..."
This is just somethings that's been going on in my mind while I read this thread, which is one of my favorites, thanks.
. . . Ennis could of followed that same path, he could of killed Jack that first night, but he didn't. There was something inside him that prevented it from doing such a thing. Maybe it was Jack's love for him, the love he had for Jack or both. Anyway there was something the old man couldn't kill off.
Yup. Annie is such a talent. Ennis is a very complicated character, remember in the SS how Ennis tells Jack about his relationship with his brother, how his father tells him to fix it, and then what Ennis does “Don't say nothin' and get it over with quick”. And of course all the other violent incidents we see with Ennis, the alleyway, the 4th of July, the Black & Blue Bar, etc. But then there’s Jack Twist, his primary reaction to Jack’s FNIT advance is to just f*** him (get it over quick?). But then, after his lone reflection on the mountain, he comes back to Jack, SNIT, uncertain and apologetic. How does seeing Earl at age nine play into this evolution? What is it that allows or creates this transformation of Ennis into a different sort of character? I think some of what Annie is telling us here is that even Ennis Del Mar, a man who by every account should be a brutal tough homophobic SOB, even he is capable and to some degree possibly unable to resist or reject this force of nature, this force of love. We can’t always choose who we fall in love with.
Interesting proposition, BA.
I don't necessarily agree with Ennis's Pa being gay, but certainly and absolutely agree with him being a child abuser. It's not just physical abuse that leaves scars. Emotional abuse leaves deeper and more permanent scars. You are right that Ennis had something special inside him that stopped him from repeating the cycle of abuse, hitting his own little girls, or killing Jack that first night. I never thought of that. :t)
Here is another thought. Perhaps Ennis would've grown up repeating the cycle of abuse...his bouts of anger and all. But there is something special in Jack, the spark that ignited the something special in Ennis, and stopped the cycle that first night. Once Ennis came to grip with his homophobia on SNIT, the cycle was broken for good. The feeling of pawing the white out of the Moon can do that to a guy...sending anger issues packing.
By the time they came off the mountain, the anger in Ennis resurfaced, first with that sucker punch, and later, in the alley, as anger turned inward, into that gut wrench.
It occurs to me after thinking about this, that depression kept Ennis from any joy in life except briefly with Alma in the snow, which probably reminded him of his time with Jack. With Alma all bundled up in thick winter clothing and half hidden in a tuque, I bet it wasn't hard to do, like when he flips Alma on her stomach in bed.
That's the reason the reunion was so important and significant for Ennis...as he jumps down those steps, he was relieved Jack didn't hold a grudge against him for that sucker punch and he was back there on the mountain feeling that same feeling of pawing the white out of the moon again. I bet Ennis at the landing, saying "Jack f@#king Twist", was feeling ready to fly, jumping off those stairs if he could.
That's the something special in Jack that sparked the something special in Ennis...acceptance, friendship, respect, finding a companion where none was expected. And where did Jack get this something special? In my opinion, it had everything to do with Jack's Ma, the Pentacost who stuck it out with an abusive husband on a desolate plain in the far corner of a dusty wind swept state. Jack was a dreamer because his Ma was a dreamer, too. I can just hear all the stories his Ma told him when he was a boy, nursing him in tears after another abusive episode from the old man. You can't start a fire without a spark, and that spark came down the ages in Jack's Ma's faith. ::) Yes, I know... *o) ~)
Back to your regular programming. Yes, BA. That's why I love it here, too. All the discussion keeps me thinking. #$# and :t)
Hey Lancecowboy,
No problem, we all see things differently, its something I thought I throw out there. Its funny how you at the end of your post you write about Jack's parents. Jack had a protector in his mother. His father nothing but another abuser, a old bitter wind bag wondering how he got a "sissy" for a son.
The only distinct difference between Jack and Ennis, Jack felt his father would never accept him, Ennis knew his father would kill him. Which makes me think that is why Jack needed and wanted a place of his own with Ennis, his own where he could be himself, and with the man he loved, yes he was a big dreamer, he saw light at the end of the tunnel.
Ennis comes from a darker, twisted stock. His father brought the death to his sons, and encourage violence towards each other. Ennis's father showed that the most intimate, personal part of yourself, can bring death. I wonder is that why Ennis was still a virgin at his age.
Than Jack comes along, and "BAM!!!!!" Sex was the first night, Intimacy was the second night, and there was something about Jack as oppose to Alma that Ennis took the plunge. He couldn't resist it, fight it but gave into it, and later couldn't live without it, but his father's ghost returns. Talk about Hamlet on crack. lol.
i dont think he was.He grown up by the taboo of being gay.His father make them watch the massacre of a killed gay.He has always feared the concept of "gay".Being gay is so utopian for him
Interesting point. Ennis's Pa may not be a model parent but at least he didn't piss on Ennis or made him feel worthless. He just had high expectations and cruel methods. Jack's old man, on the other hand, was emotionally as well as physically abusive. Ennis could look up to his pa, but Jack could have nothing but contempt for the old man. In a sense, Ennis's fear of his father personifies his homophobia.
Exactly. Jack knew he already failed as far as his old man is concerned. So riding more than bull was nothing too terrible for Jack. Ennis still tried to live up to his old man's expectations. If it were not for Jack, he'd never sleep with a man, or a woman until they got married.
Yup. For sure. Ennis's old man was the typical hypocrite...do as I say, not as I do. All the old rules were laid down thick at a young age. Ennis was the kind of child who would follow the rules. Even as an adult, he would never thought breaking the law, or crossing Aquierre. It's only when Jack spurred him on, that he began to learn to look at authority figures with a different perspective, and not a little contempt. Fu@# Aquierre.
Firstly, it took a whole month or so, for the two of them working together building a camp, a life in the wilderness, before their friendship got off on firm footing. And with a little help from the whiskey, Ennis began to talk more freely, and Jack fell in love...enough to risk it on FNIT. Ennis already felt good from the friendship, from the whiskey. If Jack tried anything on their first night, or even without a friendship after a month together, the story would be very different. But because Jack was Jack, and their friendship caught on fire that FNIT, and more consciously on SNIT...Ennis also fell in love the rest of that summer whenever they had their brilliant if infrequent coupling.
Secondly, I don't know if Hamlet is appropriate in this case. I don't know if Ennis missed his father. He might miss the financial support, but I don't suppose there is much love lost. Also, Hamlet wanted to avenge his father, especially a villain so vile, but Ennis had no one to blame but the parents who missed the only curve in fifty miles. It just occurred to me that of all the words in the English language to relay the story of his parents' accident, Ennis chose "They missed it." Or did he? I am too lazy to look up the screen play and short story. If he did, perhaps that's a Freudian slip...they missed it; I miss them. :s)
But I agree that it is likely the ghost of his father who kept homophobia foremost on his mind. For better or for worse, parents definitely can have a great impact on their children. That's for sure.
Neither father would be candidates for "daddy of the year", beating and pissing on a child is cruel, abusive, and damages a child self of themselves as a human being, but just as cruel is physiological abuse, and to my unskilled mind on stuff like this, maybe more damaging. It changes someone view of themselves and the world. Its scars them without leaving marks on the body, but marks on their soul, it to changes their sense of themselves, and how they view the world and themselves in that world. Its been said here over and over how self hating Ennis was, how damaged he was. Maybe at nine Ennis could of felt like Rich and Earl, and admire those "old birds". Maybe, he had those feelings. Being gay is not all about who we do it with, but who we are as human being. It could be "I've always felt this way, but its wrong, and I could die". He struggled inwardly trying to keep himself alive, knowing who he was could kill him, and knowing what he was his father would kill him without a second thought. Ennis knew what queer was, and it wasn't him.
JMO.
Sorry mpj, I am sure you said it tongue in cheek, but I wouldn't wish these horrible "fathers" on anyone, much less thanking them.
Jack is Jack thanks to his Ma. The old man had nothing to do with it. Without him, Jack would have been even better.
Ennis is also Ennis because he was loved by his Mom. The story he related during the dozy embrace showed a loving mother.
Ennis and Jack would have a sweet life without the hateful old men in the way.
If "tongue in cheek" means being ironic,of course I was ¡ I supposed it had been clear enough according to my way of explaining my "theory" that I wouldn't wish anybody to have-or suffer-this kind of fathers...Of course,both Jack and Ennis knew what love and being loved was thanks to their mothers,who were the right counterpart to the devilish influence of the male part of their parents.
But there's life beyond mothers when you grow older,and what I meant in this sense is that two uprooted boys with a great need of being loved but also being and feeling themselves valued for someone else than their mothers would have a great possibility of feeling attached to one another.
It was in this sense and not any other that I was referring to Mr.Twist and Mr.DelMar influence in their children;because they increased with their behaviour the boys need of love,being loved and accepted,as only another uprooted boy could give.I don't know if all this makes sense... :-\\
No worries, mpj. I knew what you meant, but I just want to make sure it is clearly stated. It's easy sometimes for these subtle ironies to be lost in translation.Oh,no,I wasn't worried,nor angry,even if maybe it seemed so ¡ %( :^^) I was just trying to explain,in an ironic way,how "grateful" we should be to these two men...Because,by means of not giving their children the love they needed,contributed to increase in them the need and the skills of giving and receiving love.
Good observation that the mothers are the counterparts/opposite of the fathers. O0 Ying and Yang.:t) Here,I meant how necessary had been for both boys someone who was the opposite of two fathers who only could teach their children to hate.In order not to be a copy of them,Ennis and Jack,or whoever,need clearly another teacher to learn the value of love and make it grow before hate,intolerance and repression.
Beautifully stated and exactly what I feel about the basis for the love between Ennis and Jack...their great need to be loved, valued, and the surprise at finding it fulfilled by someone unexpected.
Here, I respectfully disagree. As we said, the source of love in these cowboys came from their mothers. Without the horrible fathers, the boys would be free to soar, and love as well as needing to be loved. The fathers diminished the love in their sons, not enhanced them. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.
This image came to mind as I struggle to explain how I see the situation. Love is like water. Mothers are sources of water in their children. Greater the mother's love, stronger and more powerful the currents that spring from the souls of the children. Fathers are like the channels that shape the flow of the water, directing them where to go, how to do useful work, or get wasted spilling over banks, draining uselessly into the swamps. The horrible fathers made their sons lives miserable, by either capping those powerful wells shut, as in the case of Ennis, so that the water must explode in anger once in a while, or degrade them into useless shallow puddles, as in the case of Jack, when he had no directions, no confidence to build anything lasting, do anything physical, except to ride a piece of stock for eight seconds, and even then he wasn't any much good at it, the dumb ass missing.
With great fathers, the love in these boys would have found the right channels, and been the nourishment that lasted them for a life time. True, some fathers are also like mothers, inspiring love in their children, but those are great loving fathers, not these abusive horrible men. Sorry, mpj, there ain't nothing in the world that can make me feel any sympathy for the disgusting stud duck or the self-righteous hateful man who celebrated death. I wish they had never been born, and Ennis and Jack grew up with loving fathers, so their story could have a happy ending instead.
okay, mpj. I think I understand what you are saying, that by depriving Ennis and Jack fatherly love, these men made the two cowboys even more hungry for male love. I don't disagree with your theory, since it is probably true in some cases. I don't know what would happen to Ennis and Jack if they had loving fathers, so the hypothetical comparison is beyond me.
Having said that, I still would prefer Ennis and Jack to have loving fathers than these two, no matter the impact on their yearning for male love. The reason is simple: the side-effects of their abusive ways are far worse than any "positive" impact they may have. No thank you.
I apologize if I misunderstood your "sympathies" for these two. As I said, sometimes it's not easier to understand over the net. Thank you for your patience and kind words.
However,I must clarify that I don't think that having two rough fathers made them specially look for male love,but simply for LOVE,in capital letters.But,as always,I should empathize two aspects;1rst.,I have always though that having an homophobic father,made Ennis feel a duality of attraction-repulsion about homosexuality that made him also "eat the forbidden fruit" as soon as he had the opportunity-I have said this many times before,so I better not repeat myself...-.And 2nd.,you're right in that the lack of fatherly love impelled both boys towards male love,maybe as a way of having other men's approval?...Surely it did,increased by the fact that they had to share a lot of things,a lot of confidences that led them to a great intimacy in all the senses.So,is in this concrete sense that I referred to be "grateful" to both fathers behaviour,because it somehow throw both boys in each other's arms,even if the way wasn't the most proper...
No, mpj. I was not saying that. I was trying to understand if YOU were saying that. As I wrote earlier, I don't agree with it, but what do I know about what makes people gay or yearn for love for that matter. It's all a mystery to me and that's why I am here.
Interesting discussion MPJ & LC .
But where it's written that a boy/man, girl/woman, cannot to love each to other?
Ennis and Jack are belated adolescent, before they meet, they are completely defined their sexuality. People don't change their sexual desire.
The context - the situation - is must, in order to become a loving relation.
But you will agree in that sometimes,even if someone has completely defined one's sexuality,can change one's sexual desire if find someone in a concrete context and situation,as you say.There're many stories of persons who couldn't have been defined as gays until a concrete moment of their lives by having met someone,in spite of themselves and their own beliefs until that very moment.But,as I have said in my former post,I think human physique is very complex,enough as scape to any predetermined reactions. :i
who defines sexuality ? who defines what is gay and what is not ? who defines what is normal and abnormal ? we have invented jargons and rules for defining "normal" - society, social upbringing (ennis having a special upbrining bcz he has seen the dead "gay" men in his childhood) teaches us what is normal and what is not - it teaches one to be prejudiced. it is impossible to say if there were no such "teacings" how would one's sexual orientation really be ? love is a very higher order word which defies sexuality, let alone jargons like gay or straight. ennis was in love ! finished