This is correct tpe. Her saying this to Ennis was a "clue" for him to find the shirts,. She knew that "keeping his room like when he was a boy" would be key words to spark Ennis's curiosity about Jack's childhood, assuring that he went upstairs with this inviting gesture of kindness.
And since she probably knew her husband would never allow Ennis to take Jack's ashes to BBM, the shirts were all that she could give him of Jack that had any significance to Ennis. Jack's room looks as if he walked out one day and even when he returned never changed anything or left anything there other than some work clothes, presumably for when he helped his father on the farm.
The shirts are the only thing linking Jack with Ennis, and the only thing Jack cared enough about to keep hidden for all those years.
Well, then....Kudos to Heath. . . . . This tells us something about Heath, then. He is a true romantic!You bet lamusica! One of the reasons I think he wanted so much to play this role. In my minds eye I can just see Heath suggesting this change in his kind of shy, but still determined thoughtful way.
I saw the reference to the reversal of the shirts being Heath Ledger's idea in the Advocate interview with Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana.
Yes, I remember that this thread was hot when I first joined the forum about 15 months ago. The prevailing thought was as you have expressed it, tpe. That explanation makes the shirts even more poignant.
The first time I saw the film, i only noticed the shirts. I didn't realize the sleeves had actually been pushed down inside the sleeves of Jack's shirt. When that realization hit, it drove the whole meaning into the realm of symbolism. Jack had deliberately positioned the shirts in a way that showed he encompassed Ennis -- Ennis was totally inside of him, just as Ennis's shirt was totally inside Jack's. So, when Ennis reverses them, the reverse is true. Now, it is Jack who is totally inside Ennis. And isn't that true? Jack lives inside of Ennis, and always will.
This scene always reminded me of how a child would take something and hide it away, because it was something of importance to them, and the child would sneak away to a hidden place to touch, gaze at that precious object, and dream.
This was Jack, the more romantic of the two, the true lover, the dreamer. Ennis becomes the same way, when he finds the shirts, the romantic, the dreamer, the true lover.
Well, then....Kudos to Heath. I think that is the one detail of this movie that best embodies the whole meaning of the story. When we love someone, we encompass them and vice-versa. This tells us something about Heath, then. He is a true romantic!
I can certainly relate. I wonder how many times Jack visited his *magic place* when he was home at LF just to feel and reflect ? His closet secretly held his hopes and dreams all those years. Probably felt glad that he had the shirt, yet sad that Ennis was'nt in it.
The whole thing with the shirts is so beautiful. Jack having those shirts for all those years is another thing that goes to show how much Ennis meant to him, how much he truely, deeply love Ennis with a love so pure, that nothing could ever take it away...nothing could ever come close to that deep, unbreakable bond Jack and Ennis had. And when Ennis takes the shirts home and reverses them...he saying, you'll be in my heart forever, Jack. Their love survives death. And yeah, Heath was such a romantic...he was such a deep, thoughtful, sensitive person, and that's why he was perfect for the part of Ennis...I can't imagine anyone else portraying Jack and Ennis besides Jake and Heath. When you watch BBM, you don't think of it as a movie...you see Jack and Ennis...that's how alive and real these characters are. Thank you, Heath...may God bless your sweet, wonderful, wise soul.
The whole thing with the shirts is so beautiful. Jack having those shirts for all those years is another thing that goes to show how much Ennis meant to him, how much he truely, deeply love Ennis with a love so pure, that nothing could ever take it away...nothing could ever come close to that deep, unbreakable bond Jack and Ennis had. And when Ennis takes the shirts home and reverses them...he saying, you'll be in my heart forever, Jack. Their love survives death. And yeah, Heath was such a romantic...he was such a deep, thoughtful, sensitive person, and that's why he was perfect for the part of Ennis...I can't imagine anyone else portraying Jack and Ennis besides Jake and Heath. When you watch BBM, you don't think of it as a movie...you see Jack and Ennis...that's how alive and real these characters are. Thank you, Heath...may God bless your sweet, wonderful, wise soul.
The fact that we don't know the significance of the shirts until the very end it what lends power to the symbolism, no? All the while, we never really had a glimpse of Jack's commitment until Ennis discovers the shirts. And we never suspected the depths of Ennis's faithfulness until he discovers them.
I totally agree with this. I didnt get the fact that Jack had taken Ennis's shirt at the beginning - so Ennis's discovery was a heartbreaking shock to me, and it was difficult to gather my thoughts as Ennis's heart nearly stopped when he realised the significance of what Jack had done, all those years ago.
To see Ennis so utterly pulled open by his discovery was powerful beyond words - this was confirmation that Jack had truly loved him throughout all those long, bitter years of sorrow and yearning, and Ennis had loved him.
The most amazing thing is to finally see Ennis as he truly is: a man whose love was hidden under so many layers of hesitation and fear, but who loved strongly and faithfully nonetheless. It took the shirts to finally pull away the veil...
Jack was the most human and the most spiritual of anyone in this story, a dedicated lover, weak in some ways, but strong and steadfast. He knew from that first summer, that he loved Ennis. No doubts, no hesitation, and honored it by the shirts he stole away.
What was it like in that bedroom year after year, was he being 19 again even at the age of 25, 30, 35 and the years in between? Leaving Ennis every year to go home to L.F., to his bedroom, and to those shirts. Or was it holding on to Ennis just a little longer?
If it's not for the fact that a real part of Ennis was on those shirts, his blood, would Jack have taken it? His spirituality was far ahead of us at first glance. It was that spirituality, that continuing connection to Ennis that compelled Jack to take and hold on to those shirts.
There are always two sides to a story, and Jack's is one of a belief in a better place, commitment and hope in finding that place, homage to the symbols of that love, pain and surrender to the reality.
I love Jack.
Jack was the most human and the most spiritual of anyone in this story, a dedicated lover, weak in some ways, but strong and steadfast. He knew from that first summer, that he loved Ennis. No doubts, no hesitation, and honored it by the shirts he stole away.
What was it like in that bedroom year after year, was he being 19 again even at the age of 25, 30, 35 and the years in between? Leaving Ennis every year to go home to L.F., to his bedroom, and to those shirts. Or was it holding on to Ennis just a little longer?
If it's not for the fact that a real part of Ennis was on those shirts, his blood, would Jack have taken it? His spirituality was far ahead of us at first glance. It was that spirituality, that continuing connection to Ennis that compelled Jack to take and hold on to those shirts.
There are always two sides to a story, and Jack's is one of a belief in a better place, commitment and hope in finding that place, homage to the symbols of that love, pain and surrender to the reality.
I love Jack.
I admit that I do find something spiritual in Jack, in spite of all the earthiness. He was a man of passion, but I think it went far deeper than raw sexual appetite. The shirts in the closet certainly prove this.
What I love the most is Jack's valedictory. To me, it is the deepest and most beautiful part of the entire story. I never tire of quoting it:
They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis’s pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire. Ennis’s breath came slow and quiet, he hummed, rocked a little in the sparklight, and Jack leaned against the steady heartbeat, the vibrations of the humming like faint electricity and, standing, he fell into sleep that was not sleep but something else drowsy and tranced until Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still usable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, “Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you’re sleepin on your feet like a horse,” and gave Jack a shake, a push, and went off in the darkness. Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words “See you tomorrow,” and the horse’s shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.
To me, the DE is the living archetype of the shirts in the closet. For me, this is what the shirts signified for Jack.
Beautiful, Thomas.....those words are spine-tingling and heart-rending.
I admit that I do find something spiritual in Jack, in spite of all the earthiness. He was a man of passion, but I think it went far deeper than raw sexual appetite. The shirts in the closet certainly prove this.
What I love the most is Jack's valedictory. To me, it is the deepest and most beautiful part of the entire story. I never tire of quoting it:
They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis’s pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire. Ennis’s breath came slow and quiet, he hummed, rocked a little in the sparklight, and Jack leaned against the steady heartbeat, the vibrations of the humming like faint electricity and, standing, he fell into sleep that was not sleep but something else drowsy and tranced until Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still usable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, “Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you’re sleepin on your feet like a horse,” and gave Jack a shake, a push, and went off in the darkness. Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words “See you tomorrow,” and the horse’s shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.
To me, the DE is the living archetype of the shirts in the closet. For me, this is what the shirts signified for Jack.
I admit that I do find something spiritual in Jack, in spite of all the earthiness. He was a man of passion, but I think it went far deeper than raw sexual appetite. The shirts in the closet certainly prove this.
What I love the most is Jack's valedictory. To me, it is the deepest and most beautiful part of the entire story. I never tire of quoting it:
They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis’s pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire. Ennis’s breath came slow and quiet, he hummed, rocked a little in the sparklight, and Jack leaned against the steady heartbeat, the vibrations of the humming like faint electricity and, standing, he fell into sleep that was not sleep but something else drowsy and tranced until Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still usable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, “Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you’re sleepin on your feet like a horse,” and gave Jack a shake, a push, and went off in the darkness. Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words “See you tomorrow,” and the horse’s shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they’d never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.
To me, the DE is the living archetype of the shirts in the closet. For me, this is what the shirts signified for Jack.
I know, this may have been discussed here, but I just watched BBM, and I noticed that when Ennis finds the shirts, his shirt is under and Jack's on the top, and in the end, when he says Jack I swear, Jack's shirt is under and Ennis's is on the top? Why he changed the shirts?
Any clues?
Btw, I'm crying here my heart out, it was long time ago, when I saw BBM, so all the sadness came again :\'( :\'(
It could also be symbolic of protection. That Ennis did want to protect Jack from hurt, harm and danger. He may also be symbolically protecting the depth of each one's love he's now come to know.
Yes,that's what we considered in the first posts of this thread...The same than Jack was kind of protecting their love during years with the symbolic gesture of putting his shirt over Ennis's;from the very moment this latter found them,he would be protecting their love's memories and,somehow,Jack in death,more than he couldn't protect him being alive.For me,this is one of the several "penitences" he obliged himself to do when he realised his past mistakes and his will to change them,even when it was too late to show it to Jack...
Damn. You just made me cry, Thomas. :\'( :\'(
And we see it the exact same way, you've expressed it much better than I did. Jack's love was pure and true, it went beyond the physical, to the spiritual. Who would think that Jack would feel so deeply, so spiritually when we see him go off to Mexico, or take up with Randall, that human part of him, the imperfections, his weakness, and his fidelity questioned, knocks up silly when we realize how spiritual, and how faithful he really was.
And the shirts also serve to show what a truly epic love Jack and Ennis had. It's a love that transcends everything. The shirts being there after twenty years really do justice to show how deep and true this love is, that this is the REAL thing that most people don't ever find in this life. It shows how just like the shirts were forever intertwined, so were Jack and Ennis's souls. Their souls were forever bonded, forever inseparable.
The shirts are a great sysmbol, no? It certainly stood for the bond of love between them, and in the end, it respresented all that was left of BBM.
I agree,Thomas. :) They symbolise what remains of BBM(the souvenirs of the old good times that will never come back)for the past, and the commitment of his eternal emotional bond with Jack (what he had from him from this moment onwards),for the future.agreed with everything except the bit where you said will never come back i just beleived that they will comback after enni dies and they are reunited in the after life.
agreed with everything except the bit where you said will never come back i just beleived that they will comback after enni dies and they are reunited in the after life.
agreed with everything except the bit where you said will never come back i just beleived that they will comback after enni dies and they are reunited in the after life.
Yes,but I was referring to the memories and hopes that remained to Ennis in this life,that was the one he must spend without Jack in the end...
The shirts are a material testament to a love that transcends death...
IN contrast with their abiding love, the physical shirts themselves looks flimsy and so temporal -- it is like this with life, I think. True and eternal meanings are embodied in/symbolized by temporal/temporary things. The meanings live on even as the symbols turn to dust.wow thomas lovely interpretation there
IN contrast with their abiding love, the physical shirts themselves looks flimsy and so temporal -- it is like this with life, I think. True and eternal meanings are embodied in/symbolized by temporal/temporary things. The meanings live on even as the symbols turn to dust.
Thanks zankou and Tammy. It's funny that everytime I see shirts hung one inside the other, I can't help but think of Ennis and Jack. For me, the shirts have become part of the central symbol of the story, which is BBM itself.
Part of exploring the movie has us trying to piece together extended information, based on what's there, and that's always risky but fun. But sometimes what's visibly there, we often pass by or let fade away. What's there, visibly, with the shirts is that Ennis was badly shaken by the discovery and that their primary meaning was that Jack had loved him - - - all the way back. Jack had even made them a secret "shrine" to the love.I agree.
Since Ennis clearly hadn't known the depth of Jack's love, everything else that had occurred before took on new meaning. The shirts are one of the most powerful literary devices ever used in a story, to transform the meaning of....everything. For the character (Ennis) and the reader or viewer.
And, of course, this is where BBM may have made the leap (not wanted by some) from a gay affair, entangled and troubled, to an historic love story that transcended sexual orientation or issues. Discovery of the shirts was a quantum jump, past the earlier issues "Was Ennis Gay?" and into the territory, difficult for any writer to achieve, of the Immortal Beloved.
Thanks, Matt. And just as a footnote, I suspect Ang Lee had a lot to do with the casting of BBM, and he knew that particular scene HAD to be done with great intensity. Heath had almost been unwittingly in practice for it, by his emotional reunion with his father in A Knight's Tale, and the grieving scene in The Order. He had proven he could do a scene like that. Which makes me curious as to why he was offered either role, Jack or Ennis.maybe ang lee offered heath to give him the choice but i think ang always new exactly what character heath would choose :)
Does that mean Ang felt Jake could have carried the same scene, as Ennis? It's very difficult to imagine the 2 actors taking the opposite roles. Once again, it would seem something was fated.
Yes,Thomas,it happens also to me...The shirts for me are the tangible BBM remains,what is left of their love in a material sense-letting aside the memories,the feelings,the sensations that forever Ennis would carry inside him-.The shirts are their paradise turned into some object,are like BBM itself.
Since Ennis clearly hadn't known the depth of Jack's love, everything else that had occurred before took on new meaning. The shirts are one of the most powerful literary devices ever used in a story, to transform the meaning of....everything. For the character (Ennis) and the reader or viewer.
The shirts,in the moment Ennis found them,go far beyond a mere object,even the most beloved one; they´re the deepest and most complete love statement that one can say without words.
I've tried to pay special attention to the exact shirts Jack and Ennis wear while working on Brokeback: I would assume these cowboys may have had only two shirts and two pairs of jeans--one to wear, one to wash. Since Ennis almost always had his coat on, it is difficult to count his shirts by the colors and/or patterns. Jack seemed to have at least one blue chambray shirt and one charcoal one, right? And is it not totally adorable that Jack wore white T-shirts, and Ennis wore athletic undershirts?!
Note by TPE: I edited out the last alternative name for athletic undershirts, because a member of the forum had previously objected to it being used.
I've tried to pay special attention to the exact shirts Jack and Ennis wear while working on Brokeback: I would assume these cowboys may have had only two shirts and two pairs of jeans--one to wear, one to wash. Since Ennis almost always had his coat on, it is difficult to count his shirts by the colors and/or patterns. Jack seemed to have at least one blue chambray shirt and one charcoal one, right? And is it not totally adorable that Jack wore white T-shirts, and Ennis wore athletic undershirts?!
Note by TPE: I edited out the last alternative name for athletic undershirts, because a member of the forum had previously objected to it being used.
lancecowboy and tpe: Your insights are sooo me! Yes, I noticed the lighter in the reunion scene and had wondered if perhaps Jack had given it to Ennis. AND that was certainly the "horse and rider" that Ennis was carving in the tent during the rain--which showed up on Jack's desk! lancecowboy: Thank you for attempting to chronicle the shirts--I have tryed, but the patterns are difficult to discern. (I don't think they ever wore each other's shirts--Jack was washing one of Ennis' shirts in the creek after FNIT). Perhaps I have too much time on my hands--but I am obsessed with every nuance of this movie--bought a tiny DVD player with screen--and found the BBM DVD for only $5! NOTE: After Ennis received the first postcard, and then went to the post office, he was wearing two different shirts, one coming, one going.
lancecowboy and tpe: Your insights are sooo me! Yes, I noticed the lighter in the reunion scene and had wondered if perhaps Jack had given it to Ennis. AND that was certainly the "horse and rider" that Ennis was carving in the tent during the rain--which showed up on Jack's desk! lancecowboy: Thank you for attempting to chronicle the shirts--I have tryed, but the patterns are difficult to discern. (I don't think they ever wore each other's shirts--Jack was washing one of Ennis' shirts in the creek after FNIT). Perhaps I have too much time on my hands--but I am obsessed with every nuance of this movie--bought a tiny DVD player with screen--and found the BBM DVD for only $5! NOTE: After Ennis received the first postcard, and then went to the post office, he was wearing two different shirts, one coming, one going.
Thanks pattyjean!
OT: you know, it was under discussion before whether the horse on jack's desk was the same one Ennis was carving on BBM in 63. I think the concensus was no, but who knows?
How interesting -- your observation of Ennis's shirt at the post office! I must check this out.
One thing I wanted to check but had not doe so is whether the blood stains on the shirt sleeves match in the fight scene on BBM and in the closet in LF. For example, when Ennis wiped the blood with his sleeve, was it with the left or the right arm? And was this the same side where the bloodstains show in the closet?
Ok all this talk about the shirts, I have a question. In FNIT Ennis is wearing the shirt that has the brown pattern on it and next day Jack is washing his other shirt, the one that eventually had the blood on it right? This was after Ennis rode off that morning to the sheep. SNIT he's wearing the shirt Jack was washing that day right? I get the impression most think like me SNIT was the next night, but did Ennis change shirts that night after coming in for supper? Or did SNIT happen on a later night? I'm confused :iRimasworld: You are right on target about the brown shirt and the one Jake was washing. After FNIT, Ennis rode off wearing the same brown shirt--and apparently skipping breakfast. Evidently he changed into the clean shirt the next evening before SNIT. I'm certain that Ang Lee put lots of thought into this, as he is microscopic in his attention to details. (Ang actually trained that tiny insect to land twice on Jack's black hat during the "I ain't queer" discussion! LOL)
Oh no!! Oh no!!! I can't believe it!! ^*) ^*) ^*) Why did they do THAT?!!!!!! I mean, it makes no sense!! They had to know that people, brokies, sure were gonna want the shirts with those bloodstains.....or what it's more, they sure were gonna want those shirts because of Ennis and Jack's blood!!! And what about the smell? Brokies ALWAYS smell things, looking for Ennis/Heath and Jack/Jake's smell. We do like Ennis did the whole time...so wash the those shirts is almost like a sacrilege if I can use that word here.The bloodstains were of course fake blood, but OMG! the scent of Heath and Jake would have been on the shirts because they were worn in the movie! That is too painful to bear--that the scents were washed out!
I don't understand it....I don't get what the hell they were thinking about in that moment....
Damn.
PattyJean...you must have Blue-Ray HD TV. Lucky you! On another note...I am very surprised that they washed the shirts before putting up for Auction. That makes no sense.atalley: Just because of my obsession w/ BBM (which I saw on Bravo for the first time) I went out and bought a tiny portable DVD player w/ screen, on sale at Radio Shack for $100. And the DVD was only $5! I've NEVER been affected in such a riveting way by a MOVIE! It totally opened my eyes to the possibility of FOREVER LOVE, which I honestly didn't know existed...
Yeah, Thomas, I think we all said that it was not the same horse. Ennis' horse was made of wood and the horse in Jack's room was made of some kind of metal, or brass....And we see Ennis was carving just a horse not a horse with a rider....We never saw if he carved a rider so we only can imagine that. We have no proofs at all.
About the shirts and the blood, Ennis wiped the blood with his right sleeve and Jack tried to wipe him with his right sleeve too, because he was holding Ennis head with his left hand, and then when Ennis go to LF we can see those bloodstains in the right sleeve of both shirts, and I noticed that the bloodstain in Jack's shirt is just right in the same spot where it was (and we can see) in the fight scene, and even the large is the same. Ang did this so very well. It's perfect.
Agreed! Shattered me.
Glad you found the right pasture to graze in. Someone get patty some wiskey from the stream over yonder.
I agree with you about the shirts, Tammy, but the horse and rider in Lightning Flat was definitely made of wood, but you can see that it has gained a shine on it because of age, and handling. Ang Lee has been careful with every detail, so I can't imagine him not taking note of something like that, a bright clean piece of wood after twenty years, especially something that Jack would handle often, in memory of that summer of '63.
The reason why I think they are the same, is that the size and shape of the horse is almost identical to the one that Ennis was carving. It is the kind of detail that Ang Lee would put into the movie, just like the lighter. I don't know for certain, but I would be surprised that these were not deliberate signatures of their love.
Just my opinion.
Oh I don't know Andrew, I mean, when you carve a piece of wood, or if you are working in a block of marble you have to carve the whole thing at once..I mean, Ennis should carve the horse and the rider from the same piece of wood, and we only see the horse....and there is not enough wood left in that piece to carve the rider....
Then, when Ennis goes to Jack's room and takes the horse he seems not to be surprised like he was when he saw the shirts....he's not shocked, and he even doesn't seem to recognize the figure....I mean, when he found the shirts he was stunned to learn that Jack kept them for 20 years, but he was not stunned when he saw the horse, and it's supposed to be there those same 20 years.....But Ennis only looks sad and moved when he saw that Jack's little toy....And also I can't believe that Jack had not a toy when he was a child, a cowboy and his horse.
About the lighter, well, I don't think that Ennis kept it in first place. They were in BBM for almost two months and Jack sure needed his lighter there (and of course Ennis too) so I don't think that Jack didn't ask for his lighter back that day in the bar. He sure light another cigarette after the one they were smoking with the beers.
For some reason I don't see Ennis giving Jack that horse and taking his lighter. That was not Ennis. Ennis did things for Jack when he was sure Jack was not gonna know how he was feeling. Ennis didn't want to be vulnerable...Ennis spent 20 years fighting with what he was feeling and trying to not show much of that, not even to Jack, so giving Jack a horse would have been show so much, and so soon too!! Maybe after the reunion those kind of things were possible but I don't think he was able to do that as soon as BBM was.
Just MHO. Thank you.
Agree, Ang was a genius, and because of that he created an amazing setting and atmosphere full of little details to show us the life of the characters, and that’s what he did with Jack’s room for example. I think Ang was only showing us a little piece of Jack’s childhood, because his mother kept the room like it was when he was a child.
And Ennis needed a lighter if was gonna smoke, right? So Ang was only creating a setting, like he did with all the scenes.
If every little thing was a reminder of their relationship or something they gave each other we’ll have to talk about the pillows in Ennis trailer like I did in another thread, and about the gloves or what about the brand of the whiskey or the cans in Ennis trailer? If everything was something from each other, then the riffle in Jack’s room, the one we can see, was the rifle Ennis used to shot the elk!! And you know that makes no sense!!
If everything was so very obvious about how much they thought about each other, well then there had not been the punch, and with the punch I mean the shirts. That scene was created to punch Ennis and punch us, to show us that it was real love and show us how Jack kept hoping and dreaming. And it was about Jack, because like I said to Andrew, I think it was not an Ennis thing to keep something from Jack which showed to Jack and to himself his vulnerabilities, his love. Ennis was not like that. Not so open and romantic. And I think Diana or Ang had used something more powerful to show us Ennis love than a lighter. Ang used the lighter to show us how nervous Ennis was, opening and closing it, opening and closing it!! Ennis really wanted Jack there, he had not forgotten him.
As beautiful as it can be I think it’s only our imagination and wish. I mean, I wish that pillow in Ennis bed was for Jack, but Ang, Heath, Jake and Diana never said a word about it. They only talked about what was important and REAL and it was the shirts. They never talked about Jack keeping Ennis horse or Ennis keeping Jack’s lighter. Diana tried to be faithful to Annie’s SS, and Ang to Diana’s script and there’s nothing there saying that those things we are talking about here were real and true.
If Jack had another souvenir from their love in BBM, what would be the point with the shirts? I mean, the shirts are supposed to be a punch, to be a surprise, to be the only thing about Ennis and him Jack kept during 20 years. I’m not the one saying this, it’s was what Diana said.
We can say that Jack’s Ma offered Ennis cherry cake because Jack told her that it was his favourite, but we have not proud of this!! We don’t know if Ennis loved that cake or if Jack said that to her Ma. It’s only what we want to imagine!! There’s nothing in the script or in the SS to believe that!! And that’s the only guide we have, that and Heath, Jake, Ang and Diana’s words.
The same with the horse and the lighter, and the pillows for me. It doesn’t matter what we believe in, we have no proofs, it’s only our wish. JMHO. Thanks.
We are getting off topic, so sorry. ^f^
Rimasworld: You are right on target about the brown shirt and the one Jake was washing. After FNIT, Ennis rode off wearing the same brown shirt--and apparently skipping breakfast. Evidently he changed into the clean shirt the next evening before SNIT. I'm certain that Ang Lee put lots of thought into this, as he is microscopic in his attention to details. (Ang actually trained that tiny insect to land twice on Jack's black hat during the "I ain't queer" discussion! LOL)
Thanks atalley and Tammy! And thanks also, Tammy, for the link. IT was a beautiful observation on your part!Yes,we can't.And we can't because the shirts are Ennis and Jack themselves and the tangible proof that "this thing"-as Ennis called it for not having to say "love"-was something deeper even than they thought.
BBM is rich is the symbolism that resonates from one object to another. This is certainly true with the shirts. WE think of them as an indivisible pair. We cannot think of understanding one without the other.
Ooh ooh Francis! I just noticed something--in the scene where Ennis is shirtless and about to "warsh everything (he) can reach"! In the background on a pile of wood, is Ennis' coat, shirt, and what looks like a
clean pair of jeans! I had previously been concerned about Ennis putting the dirty jeans back on! In Annie's SS, Ennis wore neither "drawers" nor socks: Ang did, however, supply him with boot socks...lol.
Yes,we can't.And we can't because the shirts are Ennis and Jack themselves and the tangible proof that "this thing"-as Ennis called it for not having to say "love"-was something deeper even than they thought.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the ss say that Ennis just owned 2 shirts an one pair of jeans? I don't have the ss with me right now, and I could be wrong in this...hmm i rmemeber something like that but i dont have the ss anymore...
hmm i rmemeber something like that but i dont have the ss anymore...
Yeah, I think you've hit it here Thomas. A directive from a screenplay explaining the situation. Not really spelled out anywhere in film or the SS that all he owns is in that brown bag, but the implication is clear, he's travelling light, no doubt about it. Of course the beauty of that shirt in the bag at the start (alone) and then in the bag again at the end (entwined with Jack's) is simply beyond words.
Whoops. I just checked the film. He's wearing that checked white shirt in the first scene. So the shirt in the bag must be the other (brownish) one. Well, still works pretty good as Jack's wearing the blue shirt too there at the beginning. So they meet, both both wearing the shirts that end up in the bag at Lightning Flat.
Yeah, I think you've hit it here Thomas. A directive from a screenplay explaining the situation. Not really spelled out anywhere in film or the SS that all he owns is in that brown bag, but the implication is clear, he's travelling light, no doubt about it. Of course the beauty of that shirt in the bag at the start (alone) and then in the bag again at the end (entwined with Jack's) is simply beyond words.
Whoops. I just checked the film. He's wearing that checked white shirt in the first scene. So the shirt in the bag must be the other (brownish) one. Well, still works pretty good as Jack's wearing the blue shirt too there at the beginning. So they meet, both both wearing the shirts that end up in the bag at Lightning Flat.
I had been looking for a good pic of Ennis caressing the shirts and it took quite awhile. Before, I had happy pics for my wallpaper of E/J riding horseback. Anyway, I finally found the one I was looking for. It is so beautiful, but so sad. It takes my breath away at how gentle he is with their memories. I also love, love, love the fact that he smells them to remember Jack's scent. :\'(
The way he buttons the shirt in his closet during the final scene -- what do you think is the symbolism of this action? Is he thinking that Jack was present with him there and then?
I suppose that yes,somehow he thinks and feels as if Jack was with him all the time.The shirt is the tangible symbol than joins him to his lover,as well as a memory of the good and happy times they shared.But I don't know what is the exact symbolism of buttoning that shirt; maybe it's only Ennis wanting for everything "looks right",and the clothing was unbuttoned-not right-.Or maybe is a way of protecting Jack by covering his body-symbolically speaking,of course...-when all the buttons are right,as a way of embracing him?.
I've also wondered this myself. Maybe it was a sign of endearment of sorts, as Jack was not there physically.
I do think is was a sign of endearment and tenderness -- but I think it is a gesture that one would do if the person were physically there, if you get my drift...
Thomas...yeah, that makes sense.
MPJ...I'm not sure of ways that Ennis protected Jack. Got some examples?
Atalley, Ennis didn't want to live with Jack because he didn't want Jack to die murdered by some homophobic men with tire irons (and he didn't want to die either)....So in a way he spent all his life protecting Jack. I think that's what Ali wanted to say. ^f^
Yes,one would...But for Ennis,Jack was there almost physically.And so,this is the kind of things he woud like to do being his lover alive,as a tenderness and protection gesture.As a matter of fact,Ennis spent half his life protecting Jack somehow...
Thomas...yeah, that makes sense.
MPJ...I'm not sure of ways that Ennis protected Jack. Got some examples?
Thanks MPJ and atalley.
As Tammy had said, I understand MPJ's statement to mean that Ennis didn't want to live opnely with Jack because he honestly felt that it was the best way to protect their love for each other, contra mundum, so to speak. In this light, the final scene with the shirts reflects an extension of his protection of that love beyond Jack's death -- via Jack's shirt, which is protected by his own shirt.
Did anyone notice that the two shirts hanging in Jack's closet had not been washed? There was the blood on the sleeves and dirt on the collars. But in the final scene of Ennis buttoning Jack's shirt, the collars were immaculately clean--insinuating that Ennis had laundered them! "Jack, I swear..." ^f^
:t) Thomas¡.Yes,you have put what I meant into words wonderfully.Isn't that a way of protecting themselves against society rules and misunderstanding-a coward way,but a valid way...-? Hidding their love better than showing it before everybody?. :*(
Did anyone notice that the two shirts hanging in Jack's closet had not been washed? There was the blood on the sleeves and dirt on the collars. But in the final scene of Ennis buttoning Jack's shirt, the collars were immaculately clean--insinuating that Ennis had laundered them! "Jack, I swear..." ^f^
I don't think so, Patty. I don't think that Ennis washed the shirts. I can't see him washing that blood that meant so much to Jack. And remember how Ennis tried to smell Jack there in his shirt? He was desperate to get some glimpse of Jack in the fabric, so I don't think he wanted to erase the only think he had of Jack, his odor, even if that odor was only in Ennis mind. Those were the only thing he had from BBM, and I think he did like Jack did: he didn't wash those shirts, he wanted them with Jack and the mountain's smell there, with the dirt from when they were rolling in the hill, with everything what BBM was.
He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.
It's not exactly a cowardly way. And given the time, the place, and the circumstances, perhaps he was right to be wary. IN a way, his "vision" of how Jack died revealed his state of mind.
I think it is certainly one "valid" way -- a way that predominated for much of history, I would say.
I think I would agree with Tammy, pattyjean. Of course, in the movie, we don't get to see the bloodstains, so perhaps this is an open point of discussion as far as the movie is concerned?I will watch the ending again: Seems as if the shirts in Jack's closet looked bloody and dirty on the collars--which would be typical--considering their work and that last-day-lasso-fight. When the shirts are shown in Ennis' closet, the collars look pristine, and shirts actually looked pressed! Am I losing it? :(
I think I would agree with Tammy, pattyjean. Of course, in the movie, we don't get to see the bloodstains, so perhaps this is an open point of discussion as far as the movie is concerned?
I tend to agree too with what Tammy said,pattyjean; the shirts are a too strong symbolism as to change them in any way.They must have forever the memories of these happy times,for what these bloodstains were the proof; if they had got cleaned,they only had been two pieces of clothes ready to wear.They musn't be worn,for nobody,even for Ennis himself;they must remained just in this way forever,saving-at least in Ennis mind-Jack's touch and smell. <^(
Well,what I said "coward" I didn't say it in the full sense of the word...As a matter of fact,I said it with a question mark to express a dichotomy.It's logical that our behaviour changes according to the situation we live; and it's more logical still that Ennis environment didn't favour too much a boldness act on the part of him...
I will watch the ending again: Seems as if the shirts in Jack's closet looked bloody and dirty on the collars--which would be typical--considering their work and that last-day-lasso-fight. When the shirts are shown in Ennis' closet, the collars look pristine, and shirts actually looked pressed! Am I losing it? :(
OK, I watched the ending again, and the shirts do look untampered-with. Actually neither shirt looks pristine, but not very dirty either. And, yes--They are meant to be unworn for all eternity by ANYONE! I envy the guy who owns them now! I stand corrected...Tammy and MPJ. ^f^
I always saw the shirts as a symbol of Jack’s undying love; his “I love you” from the grave and something so tangible for Ennis to hold onto- and keeping them locked in that dozy embrace. I think that is pretty much what we all see in them, so no I'm not stating the obvious ;) It hit me that maybe there is more symbolism there-almost a bookend of sorts. I wonder if Ennis ever sees that fight when he looks at them- the lasso scene. Thinking on how they were forced apart too soon and there was nothing either could do about it, much like now when he has them. It was supposed to be a “forever” goodbye in ’63 and yet it wasn’t and they had all of those years together. There was room for hope then, but not now; at least in terms of seeing each other. They (the shirts) were born from a goodbye and all of the things not said but kept in the heart; how different things could have been if that chance was taken and yet through this goodbye so much was said.
I always saw the shirts as a symbol of Jack’s undying love; his “I love you” from the grave and something so tangible for Ennis to hold onto- and keeping them locked in that dozy embrace. I think that is pretty much what we all see in them, so no I'm not stating the obvious ;) It hit me that maybe there is more symbolism there-almost a bookend of sorts. I wonder if Ennis ever sees that fight when he looks at them- the lasso scene. Thinking on how they were forced apart too soon and there was nothing either could do about it, much like now when he has them. It was supposed to be a “forever” goodbye in ’63 and yet it wasn’t and they had all of those years together. There was room for hope then, but not now; at least in terms of seeing each other. They (the shirts) were born from a goodbye and all of the things not said but kept in the heart; how different things could have been if that chance was taken and yet through this goodbye so much was said.
Thanks, LJN, and welcome back. I love what you said here, because it gave me a different interpretation, that there is hope, that Ennis held on to it, unlike when he gave up after the punch. He held on to Jack in his dreams, in the two shirts. Forever, I swear. The two shirts is a symbol of Jack's steadfast love to Ennis, and also a response of Ennis' undying love for Jack.
Thanks, LJN, and welcome back. I love what you said here, because it gave me a different interpretation, that there is hope, that Ennis held on to it, unlike when he gave up after the punch. He held on to Jack in his dreams, in the two shirts. Forever, I swear. The two shirts is a symbol of Jack's steadfast love to Ennis, and also a response of Ennis' undying love for Jack.
Beautifull said, lance. The shirts are a witness/testament.
I quote your words,Thomas,about Andrew's beautiful post.And I'd add-with less wisdom,however...-that the shirts are a love witness or testament.As a matter of fact,is as if Jack gave Ennis in his spiritual will the confirmation of his love for him and the strenght for carry on being different somehow.
On the "pix of Ennis and Jack together" thread, there is a very clear photo of them grappling in FNIT: The cuff of Ennis' shirt shows up very clearly--poking out of his coat. The shirt looks to be pastel stripes, unlike any of his other shirts!
Love the shirt he is wearing when he watches Jack ride that "low startle point" mare back to the sheep after breakfast one morning. The shirt has two triangular snap-flaps on each pocket...
The shirt Ennis was wearing during the "lasso" fight does not seem to be either of those: I'm sooo confused!
%&)
Yes, I think it is primarily a witeness/testament to love. I had said elsewhere that I view the shirts symbolically as a kind of wedding ring, and that Ennis's "I swear" in thr end approximates a wedding vow...
Yes, I think it is primarily a witeness/testament to love. I had said elsewhere that I view the shirts symbolically as a kind of wedding ring, and that Ennis's "I swear" in thr end approximates a wedding vow...That's it¡ That's what I meant by saying love testament on Jack's side.But you've put it into words as beautifully as always¡. :t)
Thanks friends.well said! :clap:
I think that "I swear" is intrinsically connected with the shirts. Notice that Ennis says "I swear" in fron of the shirts -- as if they are Jack's proxy. Of course, I have said elsewhere that I look at this statement to mean "I swear to be faithful to you and our love forever." The fact that he treasures the shirts mirrors his desire to keep Jack close to him always -- if only in dreams and in the recesses of his heart.
Thanks Matt. I do think the shirts in the end become more than a symbol to Ennis. They become a kind of living embodiment -- if we disregard the fact that they are inanimate. I think the blood (and the fact that they were worn) is central to this view.i think the blood is very significant indeed... the blood is a remeinent of the time on brokeback absorbed by the shirts which are rememnants of brokeback in there own right.
i think the blood is very significant indeed... the blood is a remeinent of the time on brokeback absorbed by the shirts which are rememnants of brokeback in there own right.
i think the blood is very significant indeed... the blood is a remeinent of the time on brokeback absorbed by the shirts which are rememnants of brokeback in there own right.
Me personally I've always thought Jack's mother knew everything, and knew her son was in love with this man. That's why she made it a point for Ennis to visit Jack's room.
As for the blood, it was the only physical part of Ennis Jack could take with him, he'll always have Ennis with him.
I concur, Manhattangirl; I also believe that Jack's mother knew of her son's love for this Ennis Del Mar, whether that was at the conscious plane, or whether she intuited it at some deeper level.
The Ma Twist character was one that really touched me. She may have been a relatively peripheral character, but she was a special one.
I've always loved Ma Twist. She is the source of the compassionate and loving part of Jack's soul that is the best part of Jack. Her love for her son, so strong and apparent in the few scenes, is central to Jack's optimistic and emotionally mature character. Without her, I think Jack would have been another Ennis...fearful and beaten down by the bully of a man. They may still have their Brokeback Mountain in the summer of '63, but there'd never be the Jack who'd redline 14 hours from Texas to Riverton. Those twenty years of patiently waiting, hoping, loving.... <^( all embodied by Jack's lovingly preserving those two shirts for twenty years...and by Jack's Ma lovingly kept it a secret from John Twist...and then generously giving 'em to Ennis, the man who her son loved so much, and whose love for her son, allowed him to share with her, the grief of losing one so young, so full of dreams. She knew exactly what those two shirts meant. As she put them in the paper bag, the tiniest moment of hesitation, as if she was trying to say good bye to Jack one last time, as if she was giving her blessing to the shirts, as they find a loving new home, knowing, suspecting, hoping, that they will no longer be hidden in the dark recess of a closet, but embraced and cherished in the open arms of her son's lover.
The Ma Twist character was one that really touched me. She may have been a relatively peripheral character, but she was a special one.
I've always loved Ma Twist. She is the source of the compassionate and loving part of Jack's soul that is the best part of Jack. Her love for her son, so strong and apparent in the few scenes, is central to Jack's optimistic and emotionally mature character. Without her, I think Jack would have been another Ennis...fearful and beaten down by the bully of a man. They may still have their Brokeback Mountain in the summer of '63, but there'd never be the Jack who'd redline 14 hours from Texas to Riverton. Those twenty years of patiently waiting, hoping, loving.... <^( all embodied by Jack's lovingly preserving those two shirts for twenty years...and by Jack's Ma lovingly kept it a secret from John Twist...and then generously giving 'em to Ennis, the man who her son loved so much, and whose love for her son, allowed him to share with her, the grief of losing one so young, so full of dreams. She knew exactly what those two shirts meant. As she put them in the paper bag, the tiniest moment of hesitation, as if she was trying to say good bye to Jack one last time, as if she was giving her blessing to the shirts, as they find a loving new home, knowing, suspecting, hoping, that they will no longer be hidden in the dark recess of a closet, but embraced and cherished in the open arms of her son's lover.
I've always loved Ma Twist. She is the source of the compassionate and loving part of Jack's soul that is the best part of Jack. Her love for her son, so strong and apparent in the few scenes, is central to Jack's optimistic and emotionally mature character. Without her, I think Jack would have been another Ennis...fearful and beaten down by the bully of a man. They may still have their Brokeback Mountain in the summer of '63, but there'd never be the Jack who'd redline 14 hours from Texas to Riverton. Those twenty years of patiently waiting, hoping, loving.... <^( all embodied by Jack's lovingly preserving those two shirts for twenty years...and by Jack's Ma lovingly kept it a secret from John Twist...and then generously giving 'em to Ennis, the man who her son loved so much, and whose love for her son, allowed him to share with her, the grief of losing one so young, so full of dreams. She knew exactly what those two shirts meant. As she put them in the paper bag, the tiniest moment of hesitation, as if she was trying to say good bye to Jack one last time, as if she was giving her blessing to the shirts, as they find a loving new home, knowing, suspecting, hoping, that they will no longer be hidden in the dark recess of a closet, but embraced and cherished in the open arms of her son's lover.As always,you have found the rights words to define Mrs.Twist sensations and the special connection between she and Ennis,Andrew¡. :clap: :clap: :clap: Yes,I tend to believe that she,with this sixth sense of all the mothers,guessed what these shirts meant and Ennis's choose only confirmed her suspicions.And she knew perfectly well that his son and this man-who now she knew that had loved Jack so much-were going to be bonded forever by means of these shirts,and,somehow,both of them from that moment onwards to honour Jack's memory.
Thanks, mpj, Laura, tpe.
The last few scenes have always carried significant meaning for me. They represent the most powerful moments in the movie. I am always touched and grateful that what I post receive so much response from others. It is why I love this place, to know that I am not alone in how I feel about Brokeback Mountain, about Ennis Del Mar, about Heath.
Thank you all for being here, and it is always a pleasure and a privilege sharing how I feel. :ghug: :^^) :c)
IN those last scenes that you refer to, the shirts emerge as a character in their own right. They not only stand proxy to jack -- they also stand proxy to Ennis: proxy to all the things he could no longer say and no longer touch. The shirts make the final scenes so memorable and so moving.
I'm not sure where it was, but I think I was the first one to ask if the horse was the same one that Ennis carved. At the time I first saw the movie there was no question in my mind that the answer was yes. The more I think about it, though, I think it was more of a symbol of their love for the rodeo. The most important remembrance was the shirts...that's the whole reason for him to be in Jack's room. To see that Jack loved him from day 1 on the Mt. and never wavered in 20 yrs. :\'(
I loved Jack's mom and the actress who portrayed her in the movie. The fact that she knew who her son loved and understood why is touching. She must have also ached for him too knowing that he never could have the one person who he truly loved. When Ennis came to see them the love and ache was visible on her face. I loved that scene and even OMT couldn't suppress the feelings going on between her and Ennis.