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Beginning of the movie : at dawn, a truck on the road, with Ennis inside, on his way from right to left of the screen.
After Ennis's Meeting with Jack's parents : At twilight, Ennis's car going from left to right on the screen.
I mention this detail because I don't remember any other similar scene in the movie.
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Great bookend scenes!
Other Similarity....On the boys first reunion fishing trip and after Ennis says,"there ain't no reins on this one," Jack comforts Ennis with his left hand on Ennis's right cheek. Later, at Jack's parents house, when Ennis hears John Twist describe the "new man" coming up to Lightning Flat with Jack, Jack's Mother slides her left hand onto Ennis's shoulder...nice touches.
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Beginning of the movie : at dawn, a truck on the road, with Ennis inside, on his way from right to left of the screen.
After Ennis's Meeting with Jack's parents : At twilight, Ennis's car going from left to right on the screen.
I mention this detail because I don't remember any other similar scene in the movie.
Don't forget one other detail.
In the first truck scene, Ennis brings with him a paper bag with his only possessions: a spare shirt and an extra pair of Jeans.
In the later scene, he is coming back from Jack's parents carrying a paper bag containing his most cherished possession: the 2 shirts.
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Don't forget one other detail.
In the first truck scene, Ennis brings with him a paper bag with his only possessions: a spare shirt and an extra pair of Jeans.
In the later scene, he is coming back from Jack's parents carrying a paper bag containing his most cherished possession: the 2 shirts.
Yep, but I checked again today, and the first bag is not a paper bag ::)
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Don't forget one other detail.
In the first truck scene, Ennis brings with him a paper bag with his only possessions: a spare shirt and an extra pair of Jeans.
In the later scene, he is coming back from Jack's parents carrying a paper bag containing his most cherished possession: the 2 shirts.
Yep, but I checked again today, and the first bag is not a paper bag ::)
Hi Froggy.
I know the contents of the first bag (from the screenplay), but yes, the bag is definitely a cloth sack. Thanks. :)
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Hey, I know its been a while since anyone's posted here, but I'm just working my way around the forum...
How about the connection in the following scenes:
When Ennis tells Jack "If you can't fix it... you gotta stand it" on the night of their first 'fishing' trip and when Ennis breaks down during his last scene together with Jack and while embraced by Jack painfully proclaims "I just can't stand it anymore Jack"... :'(
Kind of prophetic seeing as in the first instance it's said in response to Jack's question of how long they can keep up their affair, and in the second instance it effectively is the end of their affair...
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Great observation, xrdevl84. Thanks. Every day is a new discovery. So true.
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Don't forget one other detail.
In the first truck scene, Ennis brings with him a paper bag with his only possessions: a spare shirt and an extra pair of Jeans.
In the later scene, he is coming back from Jack's parents carrying a paper bag containing his most cherished possession: the 2 shirts.
Yep, but I checked again today, and the first bag is not a paper bag ::)
Hi Froggy.
I know the contents of the first bag (from the screenplay), but yes, the bag is definitely a cloth sack. Thanks. :)
The first and last bags we see are paper. The cloth bag is only seen after they come down from the mountain..before the Ennis breakdown in the alley. 21 times here..paper/cloth/paper.
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in the beginning Ennis is outside a trailer and a 19 yo which he will love arrive
in the end Ennis is outside a trailer and a 19 yo which he loves arrive
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in the beginning Ennis is outside a trailer and a 19 yo which he will love arrive
in the end Ennis is outside a trailer and a 19 yo which he loves arrive
Oh wow, PetterG!! Fantastic! I missed that one.
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How about: Jack peels potatoes while Ennis is washing himself--and you see Jack very carefully not watching. And then Jack peels potatoes while waiting for Ennis to arrive on one of their "fishing trips," but this time grins at him and stands up when he sees Ennis.
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Oh wow, PetterG!! Fantastic! I missed that one.
Thanks, but to be true: I saw it at another BBM-forum, so it wasn't me who saw it in the film.
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Oh wow, PetterG!! Fantastic! I missed that one.
Thanks, but to be true: I saw it at another BBM-forum, so it wasn't me who saw it in the film.
Thanks for your honesty but it really wasn't necessary. I missed the connection in any case. Good find then. ;D ;)
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Hey, I know its been a while since anyone's posted here, but I'm just working my way around the forum...
How about the connection in the following scenes:
When Ennis tells Jack "If you can't fix it... you gotta stand it" on the night of their first 'fishing' trip and when Ennis breaks down during his last scene together with Jack and while embraced by Jack painfully proclaims "I just can't stand it anymore Jack"... :'(
Kind of prophetic seeing as in the first instance it's said in response to Jack's question of how long they can keep up their affair, and in the second instance it effectively is the end of their affair...
hey - I never thuoght of that ---- just how sad is it
tears are flowing - right now,
that he can say that they both have to stand it cos they can't fix it
and the poor guy gets to the end of his 'being' and he can't stand .....
- hang on
cant see the keyboard-
he JUST CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE
and then he loses him forever
Oh gosh
:'( :'( :'(
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Hey, I know its been a while since anyone's posted here, but I'm just working my way around the forum...
How about the connection in the following scenes:
When Ennis tells Jack "If you can't fix it... you gotta stand it" on the night of their first 'fishing' trip and when Ennis breaks down during his last scene together with Jack and while embraced by Jack painfully proclaims "I just can't stand it anymore Jack"... :'(
Kind of prophetic seeing as in the first instance it's said in response to Jack's question of how long they can keep up their affair, and in the second instance it effectively is the end of their affair...
hey - I never thuoght of that ---- just how sad is it
tears are flowing - right now,
that he can say that they both have to stand it cos they can't fix it
and the poor guy gets to the end of his 'being' and he can't stand .....
- hang on
cant see the keyboard-
he JUST CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE
and then he loses him forever
Oh gosh
:'( :'( :'(
I know maria1... soo tragic. it came to me almost like an epiphany. i wonder if it was intentional on ang's part?
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in the beginning Ennis is outside a trailer and a 19 yo which he will love arrive
in the end Ennis is outside a trailer and a 19 yo which he loves arrive
fantastic one!!!!
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he JUST CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE
and then he loses him forever
Oh gosh
:'( :'( :'(
This one gets me every time. I dont think it will ever ends.
So many great observations here. Thanks.
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I know maria1... soo tragic. it came to me almost like an epiphany. i wonder if it was intentional on ang's part?
I know what you mean by epiphany and i dont believe that Ang put a single second second of it on film without intention.... he is a director with a purpose. The wrung out "i can't stand this anymore Jack" was not mentioned in the ss either - screenplay maybe or Heath improvising???
thinking about 'standing it' did you notice Jack saying ' sometimes i miss you so much I can hardly stand it' ?
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I know maria1... soo tragic. it came to me almost like an epiphany. i wonder if it was intentional on ang's part?
I know what you mean by epiphany and i dont believe that Ang put a single second second of it on film without intention.... he is a director with a purpose. The wrung out "i can't stand this anymore Jack" was not mentioned in the ss either - screenplay maybe or Heath improvising???
thinking about 'standing it' did you notice Jack saying ' sometimes i miss you so much I can hardly stand it' ?
That's so beautiful--as though the one way they communicate directly with one another is by admitting that they "can't stand" their situation. They can't live with each other--and can't live without each other either. :(
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YES - you are so right!
they can't say how much they mean to each other in the positive - E.g. i love you
but they can say it in the negative - what they cannot do/be when they are not together
well done to us!
good spotting - so this would be a triple connection huh?
3 times 'standing it!!!!!'
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Yes, I totally agree. To me, these words are their most sincere verbal communications with each other--perhaps the only times they're totally honest with each other out loud. Sighhhhh . . .
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double sigh -
can i ask you shieldmaid- Do you have PBS too ??
i imagine that you do
over and over
day after day?
isn't this is so good that all of us can share ???
well done ennisjack.com!!! ;)
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yes, maria 1, I definitely have PBS! My husband keeps making fun of me since I have the DVD in my computer and am watching certain scenes again and again and posting here instead of doing my other work! Oh well--I am happy in this state. ;)
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Yea! me too
supposed to be working
but
NOT
HEHEHEHE ::)
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Thought of another one while watching the movie at work today: Jack shaves and watches Ennis in his side mirror when they first arrive at Aguirre's trailer--and Jack watches Ennis walking down the road in the same mirror at the end of their summer on Brokeback. :(
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in the beginning Ennis is outside a trailer and a 19 yo which he will love arrive
in the end Ennis is outside a trailer and a 19 yo which he loves arrive
Great, great great connexion ;)
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Here is another pair of "bookend" scenes, I just noticed today.
Compare the Dozy Embrace -- Ennis behind Jack with his head on Jack's left shoulder and arms around him, sweet-talking -- and the scene of Ennis and Alma in the bedroom where Ennis is sitting on the bed and Alma is behind him with her head on his left shoulder, arms around him similarly, and sweet-talking.
kathy
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Kathy, I think you have a good idea expanding the scope of this thread to scenes with correspondences and bookends.
I love what you pointed out. A simliar echo can be found in the scene showing them asleep inside the tent during their last meeting: Jack lies asleep with his back to Ennis and Ennis faces him with an arm embracing Jack. It is like the Dozy Embrace, but with a horizontal orientation, I guess...
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And the reverse of them asleep before the events of FNIT.
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Yes, we did note this elsewhere, no? That is lovely.
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And the reverse of them asleep before the events of FNIT.
The reverse but the same -- Ennis still behind Jack, Jack's back to Ennis.
And interesting also, T, about the "older" tent scene being a horizontal Dozy Embrace.
kathy
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Two scenes that I think are quite similar are when he picks up both his young daughters on each arm after retuning from work in one ( They are both sreaming and crying) in their cribs, and then the one where he has both daughters with Monroe and Alma trying to drop em off on Alma while she's at work. Jeez, where was he going anyway?? I forgot.
He looks like he has his hands full in both cases. Cute.
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Thought of another one while watching the movie at work today: Jack shaves and watches Ennis in his side mirror when they first arrive at Aguirre's trailer--and Jack watches Ennis walking down the road in the same mirror at the end of their summer on Brokeback. :(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fennisinmirror2.jpg&hash=6b38f745dc15f6e93b82804aa6e305fdac53b7c4)
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fshooting1.jpg&hash=c342536a4927dbfcb1f768a44f07762c99179d24)
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The reverse but the same -- Ennis still behind Jack, Jack's back to Ennis.
And interesting also, T, about the "older" tent scene being a horizontal Dozy Embrace.
kathy
And yet there is a contrasing scnes that balances out these correspondences: at the motel, it is Jack who embraces Ennis, technically from behind...
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Two scenes that I think are quite similar are when he picks up both his young daughters on each arm after retuning from work in one ( They are both sreaming and crying) in their cribs, and then the one where he has both daughters with Monroe and Alma trying to drop em off on Alma while she's at work. Jeez, where was he going anyway?? I forgot.
He looks like he has his hands full in both cases. Cute.
Very nice correspondence, aintfoolin! Thank you.
justlikethisalways, thank for the pix. I can't see them right now at the office, unfortunately. But I can gues what is pictured...
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And yet there is a contrasing scnes that balances out these correspondences: at the motel, it is Jack who embraces Ennis, technically from behind...
Oh yes, that is so very beautiful.
kathy
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justlikethisalways: thank you for putting the pics together like that -- they're great! Any more you find, please do so, if you're so inclined.
kathy
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Kathy and tpe -- I'm glad to share! :) I was actually thinking of starting a thread for pictures of bookend or parallel scenes but if this thread is okay then I'll post here.
Here are a couple scenes (SNIT just before their first kiss, and first reunion just after the big kiss) that while not necessarily related plot-wise, turned out almost identical visually.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fkiss.jpg&hash=e6e3a86c14677eb71ad2209ebc8b14f59e3d4965)
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Kathy and tpe -- I'm glad to share! :) I was actually thinking of starting a thread for pictures of bookend or parallel scenes but if this thread is okay then I'll post here.
Here are a couple scenes (SNIT just before their first kiss, and first reunion just after the big kiss) that while not necessarily related plot-wise, turned out almost identical visually.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fkiss.jpg&hash=e6e3a86c14677eb71ad2209ebc8b14f59e3d4965)
Maw Gawd! This is brilliant ??? Thank you justlikethisalways
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Great bookend scenes!
Other Similarity....On the boys first reunion fishing trip and after Ennis says,"there ain't no reins on this one," Jack comforts Ennis with his left hand on Ennis's right cheek. Later, at Jack's parents house, when Ennis hears John Twist describe the "new man" coming up to Lightning Flat with Jack, Jack's Mother slides her left hand onto Ennis's shoulder...nice touches.
And at the Thanksgiving table at Alma & Monroe's, Ennis pulls on Jenny's ear & then caresses her cheek, just like Jack did to him in the "ain't no reins" scene.
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Don't know if this had been said but how about Jack leaning on the trucks. Once at the beginning scenes, and then again while waiting for Ennis outside in the reunion scenes.
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Don't know if this had been said but how about Jack leaning on the trucks. Once at the beginning scenes, and then again while waiting for Ennis outside in the reunion scenes.
not sure if THIS has been said - couldn't find it.
Alma Jr. wore bluebird earings while sitting at the table with Cassie - "where bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring".
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Ennis in trucks - 1) Arriving in Signal (top picture), 2) Leaving the Twist ranch (bottom picture).
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Ftrucks02b.jpg&hash=c9d9a2c1d8bf2b9e2104433cf62a0b9c16717200)
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Another pair from the same scenes (Ennis in trucks). The two scenes mirror each other so beautifully.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Ftrucks03b.jpg&hash=9a9e075af9bc17bf542b6cbd4bb37205bb0ddc65)
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Kathy and tpe -- I'm glad to share! :) I was actually thinking of starting a thread for pictures of bookend or parallel scenes but if this thread is okay then I'll post here.
Here are a couple scenes (SNIT just before their first kiss, and first reunion just after the big kiss) that while not necessarily related plot-wise, turned out almost identical visually.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fkiss.jpg&hash=e6e3a86c14677eb71ad2209ebc8b14f59e3d4965)
Wow I had never noticed that before! <^(
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Wow, terrific scenes, all of them. Good job, you guys!
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Follow-up to the "Ennis in trucks" scenes -- Ennis & Paper Sacks.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fsacks02.jpg&hash=648835c9c937d018d85e4d498ba9064bde1a62c1)
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Don't know if this had been said but how about Jack leaning on the trucks. Once at the beginning scenes, and then again while waiting for Ennis outside in the reunion scenes.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fjackleaning01.jpg&hash=c92913c7f7669a3d683b633c935ec6b5a72c11a8)
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Follow-up to the "Ennis in trucks" scenes -- Ennis & Paper Sacks.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fsacks02.jpg&hash=648835c9c937d018d85e4d498ba9064bde1a62c1)
OT: Funny that he went up on Brokeback with a paper bag & came back with a gunny sack. :s)
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OT: Funny that he went up on Brokeback with a paper bag & came back with a gunny sack. :s)
I have given that considerable thought (being a bag lady of a sort myself; perhaps a bag connoisseur, I should say). He must have gotten the gunny sack from the supplies they got every week.
kathy
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I have given that considerable thought (being a bag lady of a sort myself; perhaps a bag connoisseur, I should say). He must have gotten the gunny sack from the supplies they got every week.
kathy
K -- Thanks for the clarification - there's a big difference between a bag lady & a bag connoisseur! :) You made a good point. I bet some food came in that gunny sack - doubt that old paper bag would have survived the weather & everything else that went on up there. ::)
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K -- Thanks for the clarification - there's a big difference between a bag lady & a bag connoisseur! :) You made a good point. I bet some food came in that gunny sack - doubt that old paper bag would have survived the weather & everything else that went on up there. ::)
If I were Ennis I'd have used that paper sack early on to help start a cooking fire...it wouldn't have lasted a week.
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If I were Ennis I'd have used that paper sack early on to help start a cooking fire...it wouldn't have lasted a week.
I know -- it was already ragged and well-used in the opening scene. (I had to make one for myself for Halloween, and it took a lot of rumpling up to make a grocery bag look like that.)
kathy
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And at the Thanksgiving table at Alma & Monroe's, Ennis pulls on Jenny's ear & then caresses her cheek, just like Jack did to him in the "ain't no reins" scene.
Quite wonderful. Indeed, this is interesting.
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Don't know if this had been said but how about Jack leaning on the trucks. Once at the beginning scenes, and then again while waiting for Ennis outside in the reunion scenes.
Yes, the mannerism is both believable and quite captivating. I love the correspondences in these two scenes...
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Ennis is touched from the right 1) By Jack after the Bear scare; 2) By Jack by the fireside at the end of the first reunion; and 3) by Jack's Mother before he ascends to Jack's bedroom.
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Kathy and tpe -- I'm glad to share! :) I was actually thinking of starting a thread for pictures of bookend or parallel scenes but if this thread is okay then I'll post here.
Here are a couple scenes (SNIT just before their first kiss, and first reunion just after the big kiss) that while not necessarily related plot-wise, turned out almost identical visually.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fkiss.jpg&hash=e6e3a86c14677eb71ad2209ebc8b14f59e3d4965)
That is so beautiful! <^(
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Ennis is touched from the right 1) By Jack after the Bear scare; 2) By Jack by the fireside at the end of the first reunion; and 3) by Jack's Mother before he ascends to Jack's bedroom.
Wonderful! I had sensed some common thread when viewing these scenes, but could not put a finger on it previously.
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How bout the two scenes: Jack rounds the corner in a black truck to find Ennis that next summer at Aguirre's, and Ennis rounds he corner in a black truck returning home to find the the first post card from Jack after 4 f--kin years. Attempted "rediscovery" on both sides.
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Follow-up to the "Ennis in trucks" scenes -- Ennis & Paper Sacks.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fsacks02.jpg&hash=648835c9c937d018d85e4d498ba9064bde1a62c1)
I think he may even have exactly the same jacket.
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How bout the two scenes: Jack rounds the corner in a black truck to find Ennis that next summer at Aguirre's, and Ennis rounds he corner in a black truck returning home to find the the first post card from Jack after 4 f--kin years. Attempted "rediscovery" on both sides.
Very nice, aintfoolin ! I like this correspondence!
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I think he may even have exactly the same jacket.
Sorry greenfrog, they're very similar, but different coats. In '63 Ennis is wearing a Carhartt Chore Coat #C01, in brown. In '83 at Jack's folks he's wearing a Dickies Chore Coat #3439 in black (but they look gray). These utilitarian coats are very similar in design but of course by different manufacturers. In the shot with Ennis's father he (his father) is also wearing a Carhartt Chore Coat, but in dark blue. All of these coats are "classic" American workwear and are still available today (easy finds on ebay) in virtually the same style as in '53 (when Ennis was 9), '63 when Ennis was 19, and '83 when Ennis was 39. I may be prejudiced, but I think he's incredibly sexy in that brown coat.
O0
jackster
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:) I love that you know these garment specifics, jackster!
kathy
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:) I love that you know these garment specifics, jackster!
kathy
Same here! Wonderul information about the coats!
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:) I love that you know these garment specifics, jackster!
kathy
Gee, I hope you don't think I'm being obsessive or anything about this movie. ;)
Ennis in '63 in his Carhartt coat:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F63.jpg&hash=25e905a8c24a2e7ec26c0f0c7b660f4f07858309)
Ennis in '83 in his Dickies coat:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F83.jpg&hash=40ba0bce9e7a187336a36dcfa23dcda51eac9db7)
I don't think this is too off topic as the similarity of his clothes, even twenty years later, shows how consistent - or some might say rigid, he was in his own self image, be that good OR bad.
jackster
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jackster, I wonder if we should start a new thread all about the clothes used in the various BBM scenes!
I think it is a whole topic in and of itself... :)
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jackster, I wonder if we should start a new thread all about the clothes used in the various BBM scenes!
I think it is a whole topic in and of itself... :)
Well, I dunno, ya could. Obviously in THIS movie, more than any other movie I can think of, there were two shirts that you could say got top billing and provided the raison d'etre for the film. On the other hand, the outfits are really pretty minimal as movies go, but this is not to say without meaning. I believe the wardrobe was chosen with as much care and intelligence as is shown in the rest of the film. Being mostly all vernacular clothing it might be interesting to see what folks think about the styles and pieces chosen.
jackster
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Well, I dunno, ya could. Obviously in THIS movie, more than any other movie I can think of, there were two shirts that you could say got top billing and provided the raison d'etre for the film. On the other hand, the outfits are really pretty minimal as movies go, but this is not to say without meaning. I believe the wardrobe was chosen with as much care and intelligence as the is shown in the rest of the film. Being mostly all vernacular clothing it might be interesting to see what folks think about the styles and pieces chosen.
jackster
I do agree that the wardrobe was very carefully chosen and that they were full of meaning as far as the wearers were concerned.
There was an old thread dealing with the colors of Ennis's and Jack's clothing. But I do agree that there is more meaning that can be drawn from the clothes themselves, and not just the colors.
I will leave it up to you. It looks to me that you have a lot to share and comment upon regarding this topic...
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Gee, I hope you don't think I'm being obsessive or anything about this movie. ;)
...
I don't think this is too off topic as the similarity of his clothes, even twenty years later, shows how consistent - or some might say rigid, he was in his own self image, be that good OR bad.
jackster
No, I for one certainly don't think you're too obsessive!! There are certain other details I am very obsessive about, also. I love all the details -- and obviously Ang Lee did, too -- wanting to make sure the movie reads correctly.
Anyway, I don't know that Ennis's jackets really say too much about him personally. I think it's just that in men's clothes in particular (not city clothes) there is simply a utilitarian element, and styles have no reason to be changed. We might look at jeans as another example. Only in last decades of 1900's did jeans become subject to significant style changes, but basically, men's jeans are men's jeans, and you can still get the plain, basic style. Anyway, the jackets that a working man such as Ennis would wear, the styles would remain the same, when the styles "work" and don't need to be changed. Or denim overalls. Or work boots. Anything like that. (I'm envious of men's clothes -- "Madison Avenue" makes sure that women's clothes change twice or more a year to keep women constantly buying!) Also, even into 80's Ennis might not have access to all sorts of new-style clothes -- he would just go to Sears or his local farm mercantile and get a new jacket to replace the other one after 20 years!
Now who's obsessed, huh?
kathy
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jackster, I wonder if we should start a new thread all about the clothes used in the various BBM scenes!
I think it is a whole topic in and of itself... :)
So do I!
kathy
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So do I!
kathy
OT: jackster, if you lead, we will follow. :)
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I noticed something in the shirts scene I never noticed before (I think the crying has something to do with that ::)). I never noticed before that the shirts were backwards in Jack's closet- backwards meaning the fronts of the shirts were against the wall facing towards the front of the closet. The shirts were facing backwards to Ennis almost as if Jack had his back to Ennis. I started to think that Jack was hugging them maybe like the Dozy Embrace or maybe just happened to hang them up that way. But Ennis once again comes up from behind Jack but turns them around to be "face to face" with Jack- the acknowledgement that he wanted to hold Jack that way, that he can admit that it was a man he held. :\'( The goodbye he should have given him that last day instead of the punch. It's sort of a pendant scene to the Dozy Embrace. The DE is Jack's shirts scene in a way. Holding on to something that was and never will be again. Clinging to something and trying to will it into being.. :\'(
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This is totally beautiful, LJN. I didn't catch this significance before. The way they hung in Jack's closet, and then the way Ennis embraced them, front to front. So poignant...
kathy
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This is totally beautiful, LJN. I didn't catch this significance before. The way they hung in Jack's closet, and then the way Ennis embraced them, front to front. So poignant...
kathy
I second kathy here. LJN, that was beautiful. Thanks.
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I see two similar scenes where in the reunion scene there is a multi-colored coat hanging on a hook in Alma and Ennis's entrance hall and a multi-colored coat is seen hanging in Jack's closet too. Can't tell if it's the same one or not but this similar coat is seen in both instances
And yes, LJN, it seems to be the only coat-hanger facing that way. I agree, this was beautifully put into words. Ennis also stares at the top of the hanger where Jack's face would be. Maybe he sees Jack's face or is picturing it in his mind at this moment.
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I see two similar scenes where in the reunion scene there is a multi-colored coat hanging on a hook in Alma and Ennis's entrance hall and a multi-colored coat is seen hanging in Jack's closet too. Can't tell if it's the same one or not but this similar coat is seen in both instances
Yeah, I noticed those two similar coats about the third time I watched. I'm pretty sure it's not the same one, different trim details as I recall. But it is really curious that there would be two coats so very similar, and they are easily spotted as such by even a casual observer, so it must have been intentional by the movie makers. Why? One is '67 in the DelMar apartment and then another, 16 years later in Jack's closet. ? Jack's bedspread is also a multi-color, patchwork affair but different from the coats. ???
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There are at least 3 scenes in the movie that show Ennis and a closet/wardrobe, no? The first is when he is shown packing to leave for the mountains with Jack. The second is in Jack's closet in the Twist house. The third is in his trailer at the end of the movie.
Somehow, I sense a visual connection with these scenes, in that Ennis shows that peculiar habit of smelling the clothes...
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This is true, He did smell several items of clothing during the movie. Perhaps his sense of smel did give him an association visiualy to whomever he was thinking about at the time. ( Alma JR.'s sweater is a good example and of course the two shirts in the closet. He even smelled his own clothing while packing for the mountains!! Sorry , this is sort of OT.
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This is true, He did smell several items of clothing during the movie. Perhaps his sense of smel did give him an association visiualy to whomever he was thinking about at the time. ( Alma JR.'s sweater is a good example and of course the two shirts in the closet. He even smelled his own clothing while packing for the mountains!! Sorry , this is sort of OT.
Yes, I believe so: it gave him a sense of connection -- the senses acting as external stimulii to something deeper. IT gave the 3 scenes some common feel...
OT: there was a thread that discussed this peculiar practice of Ennis (smelling the clothing)...
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Kathy and tpe -- I'm glad to share! :) I was actually thinking of starting a thread for pictures of bookend or parallel scenes but if this thread is okay then I'll post here.
Here are a couple scenes (SNIT just before their first kiss, and first reunion just after the big kiss) that while not necessarily related plot-wise, turned out almost identical visually.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe149%2Faarxxii%2Fe-j%2Fkiss.jpg&hash=e6e3a86c14677eb71ad2209ebc8b14f59e3d4965)
I never noticed that.
Well Never thought of those 2 scenes as that "Similair" and I have watched them both prolly more than 30 times each ::) ;D
Bad Dani :8 (t)
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I just love the way their hands carress and lold each other's faces. You just know this is love, no doubt about it.
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I just love the way their hands carress and lold each other's faces. You just know this is love, no doubt about it.
Two similar and dissimilar scenes regarding this: the way they hold to their faces in the FNIT and SNIT. IN a sense, they are so different from each other -- but there is an underlying similarity that we recognize below the surface: akin to a sense of exploration, I guess.
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I never made this connection, but this similarity was in the video "The Maker Makes" (by parkerdude2003). It showed Ennis looking at the gutted sheep, then flashed back to seeing "gutted" Earl in the ditch. Even more of a connection considering how Ennis was feeling, what he was thinking about, when he rode up and saw that dead sheep. Intense...
kathy
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I never made this connection, but this similarity was in the video "The Maker Makes" (by parkerdude2003). It showed Ennis looking at the gutted sheep, then flashed back to seeing "gutted" Earl in the ditch. Even more of a connection considering how Ennis was feeling, what he was thinking about, when he rode up and saw that dead sheep. Intense...
kathy
Yes, I do agree that there is a parallel. And there is yet a third that joins the two to the final resolution: the scene showing jack being murdered.
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I quite like the parallel in the Thanksgiving scenes, where Monroe is clearly head of the household and does the carving. Jack has to fight LD and assert hisposition, but ends up carving too. There's also the nice touch of Jack hacking away with a kitchen knife while Monroe wields his electric carving knife - for some reason that al;ways makes me smile. Men and their love of gadgets, I suppose.
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I quite like the parallel in the Thanksgiving scenes, where Monroe is clearly head of the household and does the carving. Jack has to fight LD and assert hisposition, but ends up carving too. There's also the nice touch of Jack hacking away with a kitchen knife while Monroe wields his electric carving knife - for some reason that al;ways makes me smile. Men and their love of gadgets, I suppose.
It makes me smile too. Jack's, because he finally regains the respectability of being pater familias; Monroe's because he seemed so "out of it" -- not saying a word through it all and seemingly preoccupied with the carving and nothing else...
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I see parallels among the gutted sheep, Earl in the ditch, Monroe and Alma's T'giving turkey with it's gutted cavity toward the camera, and the Black Hole that Jack walks into with the male prostitute in Mexico.
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All of them a version of the mouth of hell? Among the painted pieces of scenery in the inventory of an Elizabethan acting company is "One Mouth of Hell" but I'm sure that one had flames in red and yellow around it.
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Yes, the "Mouth of Hell". That describes it pefectly, welshwitch! Excellently put!
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Yes, I do agree that there is a parallel. And there is yet a third that joins the two to the final resolution: the scene showing jack being murdered.
Yes, that is true, for the viewer, that those three go together. But in the two I mentioned, we see Ennis's face seeing those things...
kathy
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I quite like the parallel in the Thanksgiving scenes, where Monroe is clearly head of the household and does the carving. Jack has to fight LD and assert hisposition, but ends up carving too. There's also the nice touch of Jack hacking away with a kitchen knife while Monroe wields his electric carving knife - for some reason that al;ways makes me smile. Men and their love of gadgets, I suppose.
The electric carving knift scene always made me chuckle because he stops doing it politely while the girls ask their dad to tell the bull (or bronc?) story and he tells it...then Monroe continues the noisy carving. I don't know why, I laughed at that.
kathy
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I see parallels among the gutted sheep, Earl in the ditch, Monroe and Alma's T'giving turkey with it's gutted cavity toward the camera, and the Black Hole that Jack walks into with the male prostitute in Mexico.
How interesting. Especially the bit about the dark dead-end alley that Jack and the hustler disappears into. I had not thought of that...
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All of them a version of the mouth of hell? Among the painted pieces of scenery in the inventory of an Elizabethan acting company is "One Mouth of Hell" but I'm sure that one had flames in red and yellow around it.
Yes, I was thinking just now of the same thing: the maw of hell.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Face.acadiau.ca%2F%7Ebfox%2Fimages%2Fcreation%2520and%2520fall%2520of%2520angels%2Ffallofangles-small.jpg&hash=2da2e6de2c6b3d5e17e4da3f193485ad15bf6fee)
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Yes, that is true, for the viewer, that those three go together. But in the two I mentioned, we see Ennis's face seeing those things...
kathy
For some reason, I also draw similar parallels with Ennis's face in the shepp scene, the Earl scene, and the scene with Lureen, where Ennis envisions the murder of Jack (at the point when Ennis stares blankly as Lureen says "hello...hello..." on the other side of the line.)
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The electric carving knift scene always made me chuckle because he stops doing it politely while the girls ask their dad to tell the bull (or bronc?) story and he tells it...then Monroe continues the noisy carving. I don't know why, I laughed at that.
kathy
He just seemed so out of it all. There is this family drama occuring in front of him in that Thanksgiving table -- the enthralled faces of the girls, Ennis's being deprecating and playful, followed by the hostile glances exchanged between him and Alma. And yet, Monroe is absolutely oblivious to it all. It just struck me as so incongruous. His resuming the slicing of the turkey breaks the tension so effectively that we laugh...
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He also seems such a self-important little Mr Middle America with his house and his pregnant wife - and not a clue what's gone on and is going on around him.
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I don't know if this belongs in this tread, so please bare with me:
The Thanksgiving scene with Alma and the Confrontation Scene, both Alma and Jack seem to be pushing Ennis to his breaking point. His ex-wife and his lover know exactly how to get to him, they don't speak to him in a way of discussing the problem or a situation, but pushes his buttons to get a reaction from him. Ennis potential violence is shown to Alma, but with Jack its total surrender. Do you think this was the only way they could to get something, anything out of him?
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I feel it depends on how Ennis feels inside about each of these partners. IMO during the scene when Alma confronts Ennis at Thanksgiving, Alma is clearly getting under Ennis's skin, calling Jack out of his name and alluding to what they do as "nasty". She is obviously holding a grudge against Jack for destroying her marriage and is playing her ace straight up. At the same time she opening a can of worms in Ennis himself, what he will not, cannot admit to himself and going years, back revealing her suspicions to him. But he feels for Jack, his friend and lover and stands up for his honor in this confrontation with Alma. She was pushing all the wrong buttons.Too scary.
With Jack, Ennis feels an emotional connection. Jack appeals to Ennis's sense of manhood that expresses his protective nature so anything Jack does or says is for both their benefit. For instance the scene in which Jack refuses to eat beans again and suggests shooting the sheep. Ennis compromises and goes for the elk. Jack had meat for dinner and breakfast. Problem solved. This becomes a pattern with Ennis. He gets mad at Jack but can't stay mad, as he finds out, Jack is uasally pushing all the right buttons but makes Ennis think in a constructive , positive way and most of all he loves Jack deeply so he's more patient towards him.MO.
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Sorry if I'm *o)
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He also seems such a self-important little Mr Middle America with his house and his pregnant wife - and not a clue what's gone on and is going on around him.
Yes, I did sense a bit of quiet self-importance in his look -- especially after Ennis finished his tale and Monroe for a split second looked at Alma before resuming the carving. I suppose this is similar to LDs looking down at Jack in the Thanksgiving scene with Jack.
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I don't know if this belongs in this tread, so please bare with me:
The Thanksgiving scene with Alma and the Confrontation Scene, both Alma and Jack seem to be pushing Ennis to his breaking point. His ex-wife and his lover know exactly how to get to him, they don't speak to him in a way of discussing the problem or a situation, but pushes his buttons to get a reaction from him. Ennis potential violence is shown to Alma, but with Jack its total surrender. Do you think this was the only way they could to get something, anything out of him?
Now that you mentioned it, I do think that there is a similarity between these two scenes, in that Ennis is made to own up to the reality of the situation. It's a less obvious similarity, I sense. Nonetheless, it's not just the drama of each situation that seems to associate one with the other. In both scenes, Ennis is forced to assess the question of who he really is.
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In the "sobering moments" thread, I just realized that there is an implicit similarity between Jack's confrontation with Agguire in the summer of 64 and Ennis's Thanksgiving confrontation with Alma. In a sense, both had the feel of an outing, even though there was no one else present...
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For some reason, I also draw similar parallels with Ennis's face in the shepp scene, the Earl scene, and the scene with Lureen, where Ennis envisions the murder of Jack (at the point when Ennis stares blankly as Lureen says "hello...hello..." on the other side of the line.)
Yes, of course. Thank you, T. Ennis "seeing" Jack's murder. So those three are definitely a group.
kathy
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And interesting that Jack was "outed" so much sooner than Ennis was. If Ennis had been outed sooner, I wonder if that might have pushed him to actually out himself to himself.
kathy
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And interesting that Jack was "outed" so much sooner than Ennis was. If Ennis had been outed sooner, I wonder if that might have pushed him to actually out himself to himself.
kathy
I was wondering about this myself.
Though not obvious, there is a similar flavor in the scene where Aguirre spys them getting physical up on BBM, and the scene when Alma sees them kissing during the reunion. There is an element of concern as to what would happen next. As it turns out, both Aguirre and Alma remain silent immediately after seeing them.
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I was wondering about this myself.
Though not obvious, there is a similar flavor in the scene where Aguirre spys them getting physical up on BBM, and the scene when Alma sees them kissing during the reunion. There is an element of concern as to what would happen next. As it turns out, both Aguirre and Alma remain silent immediately after seeing them.
No one at that time even wanted to recognize that homosexuality even existed, or speak of it . It not suprising that Aguirre or Alma went no further. Acquire just threw Jack out his office he's done with it. Alma divorced the problem, why exposed the girls to their father's "nasty little secret", what would Alma look like to society letting everyone know she married a "queer". Less said the better.
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Interestingly, it was Ennis who initiated both these encounters, the same Ennis who said" if this thing grabs ahold of us the wrong time ? the wrong place? we're dead." There's is no wrong time or place where love is concerned, Only wrong people. Thank goodness these two had sense enough to keep their mouths shut about it :-X, two more examples where the love Ennis fought against won out over his own philosophy.
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Yes, I did sense a bit of quiet self-importance in his look -- especially after Ennis finished his tale and Monroe for a split second looked at Alma before resuming the carving. I suppose this is similar to LDs looking down at Jack in the Thanksgiving scene with Jack.
I never thought of it that way! Damn a year and a half later and something new to see. :)
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I was wondering about this myself.
Though not obvious, there is a similar flavor in the scene where Aguirre spys them getting physical up on BBM, and the scene when Alma sees them kissing during the reunion. There is an element of concern as to what would happen next. As it turns out, both Aguirre and Alma remain silent immediately after seeing them.
Very interesting. As storytelling goes, AP could have written it any number of ways. But she chose for Ennis and Jack to be unaware of having been seen. (Except for the next summer when Jack went to get work from Aguirre.) It would have been a different story if they had had to deal with it right then and there.
kathy
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Very interesting. As storytelling goes, AP could have written it any number of ways. But she chose for Ennis and Jack to be unaware of having been seen. (Except for the next summer when Jack went to get work from Aguirre.) It would have been a different story if they had had to deal with it right then and there.
kathy
Ennis does reach the same point when Alma finally confronts Ennis in the kitchen during the Thanksgiving episode. It is interesting to see how Jack reacted to Aguirre and how Ennis reacted to Alma. The reactions are similar and dissimilar in a number of ways. They are similar in that both really couldn't say anything upon realizing that they were found out. The dissimilarity if that jack walked away, whereas Ennis became confrontational and threatening.
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No one at that time even wanted to recognize that homosexuality even existed, or speak of it . It not suprising that Aguirre or Alma went no further. Acquire just threw Jack out his office he's done with it. Alma divorced the problem, why exposed the girls to their father's "nasty little secret", what would Alma look like to society letting everyone know she married a "queer". Less said the better.
Certainly both Agguire and Alma reacted in a way that a society unused to open homosexuality would do. But I guess Aguirre really didn't have anything to lose, whereas Alma had her entire marriage at stake.
I guess their reactions of silence can also be described as similar scenes, even if it was really much more serious in the case of Alma, no?
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Ennis does reach the same point when Alma finally confronts Ennis in the kitchen during the Thanksgiving episode. It is interesting to see how Jack reacted to Aguirre and how Ennis reacted to Alma. The reactions are similar and dissimilar in a number of ways. They are similar in that both really couldn't say anything upon realizing that they were found out. The dissimilarity if that jack walked away, whereas Ennis became confrontational and threatening.
So interesting, that Jack walked away, Ennis became confrontational. Perhaps that's why Jack was able to live as a gay men -- for the most part staying out of trouble -- whereas for Ennis, if anything came up, he wouldn't just walk away, he would amplify eveerything by starting a fight. So maybe Jack wasn't so out there after all, but Ennis would have been.
kathy
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And so ironic in that it was Jack who was eventually killed by homophobes while Ennis survived - or is this some sort of warning, or perhaps a comment on the times in which they lived?
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So interesting, that Jack walked away, Ennis became confrontational. Perhaps that's why Jack was able to live as a gay men -- for the most part staying out of trouble -- whereas for Ennis, if anything came up, he wouldn't just walk away, he would amplify eveerything by starting a fight. So maybe Jack wasn't so out there after all, but Ennis would have been.
kathy
Yes, I think Jack was able to live through the dichotomy -- the double-life, shall we say. Ennis never acknowledged the double life. That is why the similarities in the two "outing" scenes are not so apparent -- because the reactions were so different, IMO.
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Scenes with similar scoring and emotional shift:
There are four scenes where there is a similar and dramatic shift in the world Ennis knows, and in the Ennis that the world knows. It amazes me how cleverly Ang and Gustavo came together to achieve the realization of his shifting worldview with this haunting music that I call the “death theme” because it signifies the death of the past. At each of these points Ennis’s world changes forever and this musical scoring really reinforces this change.
I’ve listed these in the order they appear along with my interpretation of their meaning. This music is unfortunately NOT included in the standard issue CD soundtrack release, but it was included in a special CD released for the AAAS (Oscars) that had the entire Santaolalla score. I’ve indicated the given title of these pieces in ( ).
Haunting death theme repeated four times:
1st Death of straight Ennis – Ennis riding alone after FNIT decides to come to Jack SNIT (Horse Love)
2nd Death of innocence (Earl) – Young Ennis sees dead, castrated Earl (Flashback)
3rd Death of Jack – Ennis loses Jack, the postcard (Jack Deceased)
4th Death of closeted Ennis – Ennis finds the shirts, recognizes and exposes his love of Jack (Closet)
Is this how you folks read these scenes? I’d be interested to hear any other interpretations . . .
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Thanks jackster.
In counterpoint to what you said, may I also note two scenes where you hear the starting notes of the BBM theme being used: the very beginning where we see the truck carrying Ennis to Signal, and the moment Ennis receives and reads the first postcard from Jack proir to the reunion.
In both cases, the music cues us to a NEW BEGINNING, no?
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. . . may I also note two scenes where you hear the starting notes of the BBM theme being used: the very beginning where we see the truck carrying Ennis to Signal, and the moment Ennis receives and reads the first postcard from Jack proir to the reunion.
In both cases, the music cues us to a NEW BEGINNING, no?
Yes tpe, and in fact there are two other scenes where this "New Beginning" theme is used . . just before FNIT (now that's a NEW beginning!), this is called "Getting Drunk" on the score CD. Then later this theme is actually divided into two separate pieces, one with Ennis going to the Post Office which is titled "Post Office" and then again during the actual reunion which is labeled "Kiss" on the CD. Yeah, each one of these four scenes really stirs my soul as you can see a whole new chapter in Ennis's life begin with each turn.
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Did anyone else notice at Thanksgiving when Ennis said, "I was no angel..." and the camera went to Alma, who shot him a look. This i believe was the opening to her comments about Jack and their fight in the kitchen. He was no angel.
Can anyone figure out what she is yelling? I finally picked up the words, i'll call Monroe... but she said something after that.
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Yes tpe, and in fact there are two other scenes where this "New Beginning" theme is used . . just before FNIT (now that's a NEW beginning!), this is called "Getting Drunk" on the score CD. Then later this theme is actually divided into two separate pieces, one with Ennis going to the Post Office which is titled "Post Office" and then again during the actual reunion which is labeled "Kiss" on the CD. Yeah, each one of these four scenes really stirs my soul as you can see a whole new chapter in Ennis's life begin with each turn.
Yes, I though that there was more, so thank you for pointing out the additional scenes. The music really gives us hints as to the what parallels the director wanted the audience to take note of. It's not a simple thing about scenes looking VISUALLY the same -- but EMOTIONALLY the same. :)
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Did anyone else notice at Thanksgiving when Ennis said, "I was no angel..." and the camera went to Alma, who shot him a look. This i believe was the opening to her comments about Jack and their fight in the kitchen. He was no angel.
Can anyone figure out what she is yelling? I finally picked up the words, i'll call Monroe... but she said something after that.
Yes, she did say "I'll call Monroe". And ashe did say "Get OUt!" several times after that.
So you are saying that the Thanksgiving scene is similar to which scene, on account of the "I was no angel..." comment? I gather that you are pointing out that this signified the start of the fight in the kitchen. So you are saying that there is a parallel with the scene at the table and the later scene in the kitchen?
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There's such a wonderful contrast between the idea of Thanksgiving - family all together, everyone happy - and these two Thnaksgiving scenes with all the emotions, repressed at first then bursting out in both cases. there's jealousy, suspicion, dislike, contempt, rage - all those things which, if I were a cycnic, I'd say often emerge from family "celebrations".
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We can compare the two Thanksgiving scenes -- domestic, family -- with any of the "domestic," "family" scenes of Ennis and Jack together: setting up camp, eating together, doing dishes. Except for the argument by the river when Ennis was washing up the dishes, their domestic scenes showed a happy family of two...
kathy
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The veneer of domesticity that characterizes theThanksgiving scene fails in oth scenes to hide the strong undercurrent of betrayal. If my memory is correct, Jack's thanksgiving scene immediately follows the scene where he performs a sex act with the Mexican hustler (the near-juxtaposition of this scene with the picture of the gravy-drenched turkey is quite disturbing, for some reason). Likewise, the Thanksgiving scene with Ennis ends in an open confrontation at who's heart is the betrayal of trust.
Love and betrayal - these two things add layers of complexity and confusion in our comparing the two Thanksgiving scenes. And as kathy had hinted at, the betrayal is nothing but the desire both of them (Ennis and Jack) to love each other freely. The "domesticity" of their time together in the mountains is nothing but a betrayal of the "normal" life they chose to lead when they were apart.
In short, which is true love, and which is true betrayal? I ask you that.
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tpe,
I'm saying that Ennis's comment "i'm no angel" was a reminder to Elma that Ennis was no angel on Brokeback Mountain. That's why she shot him that look and confronted him in the kitchen and they finally had their showdown. Even though he was referring to flying off a bronc and couldn't fly like an angel, she picked up on a double meaning, that he didn't intend. But to her, it was a trigger. He was no angel. He cheated.
Just something I noticed after watching upteen times.
tam
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Very perceptive tamlynn! I never made that connection, but it sure makes sense now when I look at it. I always thought Alma was shootin' him that look 'cause he was kinda' warming up to his teenage daughters who obviously adored their hunky, masculine father, probably much more than than their stepfather. You're right, it may be this Angel comment is what propted Alma to try and put him in his place with her "you don't go up there to fish" accusation. Great observation.
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I'm sure you're right too, Jackster. Ennis is evidently some sort of mythical cowboy hero to the girls, thus Monroe the grocer evidently compares badly and I think there's at least some sort of warning in Alma's look, as if she doesn't want Ennis trying to show Monroe up.
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tpe,
I'm saying that Ennis's comment "i'm no angel" was a reminder to Elma that Ennis was no angel on Brokeback Mountain. That's why she shot him that look and confronted him in the kitchen and they finally had their showdown. Even though he was referring to flying off a bronc and couldn't fly like an angel, she picked up on a double meaning, that he didn't intend. But to her, it was a trigger. He was no angel. He cheated.
Just something I noticed after watching upteen times.
tam
Tam, this is excellent! Thank you. :)
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Hey, I know its been a while since anyone's posted here, but I'm just working my way around the forum...
How about the connection in the following scenes:
When Ennis tells Jack "If you can't fix it... you gotta stand it" on the night of their first 'fishing' trip and when Ennis breaks down during his last scene together with Jack and while embraced by Jack painfully proclaims "I just can't stand it anymore Jack"... :'(
Kind of prophetic seeing as in the first instance it's said in response to Jack's question of how long they can keep up their affair, and in the second instance it effectively is the end of their affair...
i watched the film today and suddenly realise yes ennis said to jack what he had said 16years earlier if you cant fix it you gotta stand it .this was obviously ennis,s way of saying he cant take no more but does he mean he wants to make things permanent with jack [doubtfull] or does he mean he wants to end it . he did say 16 years previous when jack said for how long and he said as long as we can ride it .did jack remember what ennis said all them years ago [you gotta stand it ]now he is telling jack i cant stand this no more jack.
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yep and in between Jack says the famous "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"Ennis's philosphy was'nt working for either of them. MO
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yea thats right jack did say that so jack said i can hardly stand it. and ennis said i cant stand this no more jack.both were said at their last meeting together.
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Just noticed this great cinematic play the other night . . . . goodbyes in '63 and '82.
The first leaving or breakup scene in Signal '63 and the last breakup scene after the argument in '82. Maybe this has been mentioned before, but an amazingly clever mirror image of Jack at his truck getting ready to go and Ennis stammering around not being able to verbalize anything about their departure. Both heartbreaking and difficult scenes and showing how little had changed in their verbal communication skill in twenty years.
Jacks posture almost the same, Ennis's facial expressions very similar too.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F111copy.jpg&hash=cb2b6672ebcda9871e10af72f6a235e11558178d) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fbbm1404.jpg&hash=fb86c7eb9af6204f63dfd4013b555d0be10bc322)
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Wow! I never put that together! Full circle once again for our boys.
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Just noticed this great cinematic play the other night . . . . goodbyes in '63 and '82.
The first leaving or breakup scene in Signal '63 and the last breakup scene after the argument in '82. Maybe this has been mentioned before, but an amazingly clever mirror image of Jack at his truck getting ready to go and Ennis stammering around not being able to verbalize anything about their departure. Both heartbreaking and difficult scenes and showing how little had changed in their verbal communication skill in twenty years.
Jacks posture almost the same, Ennis's facial expressions very similar too.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2F111copy.jpg&hash=cb2b6672ebcda9871e10af72f6a235e11558178d) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fbbm1404.jpg&hash=fb86c7eb9af6204f63dfd4013b555d0be10bc322)
Thanks, Jackster, I love this insight. It shows how after twenty fricking years, the two of them are still in the same old stuck rut, and Jack was ready to move on, while Ennis was still feeling powerless to change, feeling stuck. Their communications skills haven't changed; their responses to each other haven't changed; and more importantly, their social standing relative to each other haven't changed. Ennis was still the poor guy to Jack's well off glamor.
There is a subtle difference, however, in that the '63 Ennis wasn't beaten down by poverty, failure in marriage, and twenty years of love denied. And Jack wasn't frustrated by twenty years of loved unrequited, put-downs by father-in-law, and liberated by the new sense of freedom and self-respect after the Thanksgiving scene.
The sense of equilibrium in '63 was missing and in '82, it felt like Ennis was afraid of Jack.
Just my two cents worth, for two wonderful actors in two wonderful scenes. :c) :c) ^f^ ^f^
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Thanks, Jackster, I love this insight. It shows how after twenty fricking years, the two of them are still in the same old stuck rut, and Jack was ready to move on, while Ennis was still feeling powerless to change, feeling stuck. Their communications skills haven't changed; their responses to each other haven't changed; and more importantly, their social standing relative to each other haven't changed. Ennis was still the poor guy to Jack's well off glamor.
There is a subtle difference, however, in that the '63 Ennis wasn't beaten down by poverty, failure in marriage, and twenty years of love denied. And Jack wasn't frustrated by twenty years of loved unrequited, put-downs by father-in-law, and liberated by the new sense of freedom and self-respect after the Thanksgiving scene.
The sense of equilibrium in '63 was missing and in '82, it felt like Ennis was afraid of Jack.
Just my two cents worth, for two wonderful actors in two wonderful scenes. :c) :c) ^f^ ^f^
:h) Lance¡.As always,your sharp perception make me realise something hidden up to now...Yes,it's as if anything had changed, as if 20 years passed only had served to have more kilos and wrinkles...But,as you remark,between two scenes there´re 20 years of frustrations,negations,bitterness and renunciations;what about another kind of wrinkles they had,less visible but deeper than the physicall ones:the wrinkles in their souls?.Of course,yes,the sense of equilibrium was already missing in 82 farewell scene, but I wouldn ´t say Ennis was afraid of Jack,at least not at 100% really.I mean he was afraid of what Jack represented,of what Jack forced somehow to do and TO BE, of the possibility of a REAL change in his life he was not prepared for;but,above all,he was afraid of himself...That's why he "explodes" in this final scene,because he's really afraid of what he can decide,and feels as if he'd be between the devil and the deep blue sea;but not between Jack and the new life that scares him so much,but between this and himself.IMO.
But yes,at the end they're two touching scenes served by two splendid actors that make us feel all this as ours. <^(
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Just noticed this great cinematic play the other night . . . . goodbyes in '63 and '82.
The first leaving or breakup scene in Signal '63 and the last breakup scene after the argument in '82. Maybe this has been mentioned before, but an amazingly clever mirror image of Jack at his truck getting ready to go and Ennis stammering around not being able to verbalize anything about their departure. Both heartbreaking and difficult scenes and showing how little had changed in their verbal communication skill in twenty years.
Jacks posture almost the same, Ennis's facial expressions very similar too.
Wonderful comparison, Jackster. I can't see the pix just now at the office, but I know EXACTLY what you mean!
It's amazing to observe the non-verbal elements: body language, facial twitches, etc. in both scenes. I am also thinking of the 2 scenes when (1) Ennis has just told Jack that he would be marrying Alma and may not be back, and (2) Ennis has just told Jack that the next time they would meet would be November. IN both scenes, they show a close-up of Jack's face. In both cases, there is a quiet desperation in his face, and a will to suppress how he truly felt.
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:h) Lance¡.As always,your sharp perception make me realise something hidden up to now...Yes,it's as if anything had changed, as if 20 years passed only had served to have more kilos and wrinkles...But,as you remark,between two scenes there´re 20 years of frustrations,negations,bitterness and renunciations;what about another kind of wrinkles they had,less visible but deeper than the physicall ones:the wrinkles in their souls?.Of course,yes,the sense of equilibrium was already missing in 82 farewell scene, but I wouldn ´t say Ennis was afraid of Jack,at least not at 100% really.I mean he was afraid of what Jack represented,of what Jack forced somehow to do and TO BE, of the possibility of a REAL change in his life he was not prepared for;but,above all,he was afraid of himself...That's why he "explodes" in this final scene,because he's really afraid of what he can decide,and feels as if he'd be between the devil and the deep blue sea;but not between Jack and the new life that scares him so much,but between this and himself.IMO.
But yes,at the end they're two touching scenes served by two splendid actors that make us feel all this as ours. <^(
Thanks, myprivatejack. Your compliments are always appreciated, and I feel undeserved since I am merely echoing what Jackster pointed out, and I missed every time I watched the movie.
I agree with you that Ennis is not afraid of Jack so much as afraid of how Jack may react, his disappointment, his hurt. The two of them understand each other so instinctively that wihout saying the words, Ennis already understood what Jack's reaction would be before he told him of the dropped date in August. And that the reaction may lead to Ennis having to make a decision, as he had done many times before, to quit his job, or disappoint Jack. Neither options is attractive. In the end, Jack made the choice for Ennis, because Jack knew that's what Ennis would do. He didn't count on Cassie opening Ennis' heart to understand love is not about fun.
And as Jackster pointed out, there is a close up to Jack's face on each occasion, after Ennis walked/drove away. After twenty years...with only Brokeback Mountain...the same old story.
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To follow through with these two "farewell" scenes from '63 and '82, in addition to Ang's clever matching of Jack at the pickup cab door pose, he continues this repeated theme again with Ennis a few seconds later in each scene when his emotions overpower him.
Ennis's collapse and cry in Alley is repeated 20 years later with Ennis's collapse and crying this time in Jack's arms. In both cases a discovery of his limitations on what he can and "can't stand". And in each case accompanied by a violent outburst. "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved"
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fbbm0548-1.jpg&hash=964ec5f6e4229e97886e2d7180a30129b0706049) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fbbm1464.jpg&hash=cee12358e719f719ea5a2527756a5625a33f76c1)
I've watched this umteen times counting the times Ennis's cries and other stuff but never noticed the incredible mirroring of these two pivotal scenes, I guess you know you in the hands of a master when your being so gently manipulated you don't even realise it!
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To follow through with these two "fairwell" scenes from '63 and '82, in addition to Ang's clever matching of Jack at the pickup cab door pose, he continues this repeated theme again with Ennis a few seconds later in each scene when his emotions overpower him.
Ennis's collapse and cry in Alley is repeated 20 years later with Ennis's collapse and crying this time in Jack's arms. In both cases a discovery of his limitations on what he can and "can't stand". And in each case accompanied by a violent outburst. "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved"
| (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fbbm0548-1.jpg&hash=964ec5f6e4229e97886e2d7180a30129b0706049) | (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fbbm1464.jpg&hash=cee12358e719f719ea5a2527756a5625a33f76c1)
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That's wonderfully perceptive, Jackster! It must be planned, since these postures are so similar that two similar scenes in almost immediate sequence can hardly be coincidental. Ang Lee is a genius. And it's wonderful to continue to discover every detail in the movie.
There is a slight difference between these two scenes, in that Jack is there for Ennis in '82.
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I feel in both scenes Ennis is feeling a devastating ,hopelessness about losing Jack. It goes to the depth of his lfeeling for him. His need for him. In both cases he is on his knees, symbolizing a kind of *uncontolled surrender *to this need for Jack's presence in his life. He is so emotionally invested in Jack that the thought of loosing him forever scared, yet humbled him imo. Jack was so much a part of him, Ennis knew they both had so much to loose. Just a thought.
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To follow through with these two "farewell" scenes from '63 and '82, in addition to Ang's clever matching of Jack at the pickup cab door pose, he continues this repeated theme again with Ennis a few seconds later in each scene when his emotions overpower him.
Ennis's collapse and cry in Alley is repeated 20 years later with Ennis's collapse and crying this time in Jack's arms. In both cases a discovery of his limitations on what he can and "can't stand". And in each case accompanied by a violent outburst. "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved"
I've watched this umteen times counting the times Ennis's cries and other stuff but never noticed the incredible mirroring of these two pivotal scenes, I guess you know you in the hands of a master when your being so gently manipulated you don't even realise it!
Thanks you so much for this comparison, Jackster. Yes, I do feel that they mirror weach other. In the later scene, of course, Jack was replaced the wall. He is there to absorb some of the pain.
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That's wonderfully perceptive, Jackster! It must be planned, since these postures are so similar that two similar scenes in almost immediate sequence can hardly be coincidental. Ang Lee is a genius. And it's wonderful to continue to discover every detail in the movie.
There is a slight difference between these two scenes, in that Jack is there for Ennis in '82.
I feel in both scenes Ennis is feeling a devastating ,hopelessness about losing Jack. It goes to the depth of his lfeeling for him. His need for him. In both cases he is on his knees, symbolizing a kind of *uncontolled surrender *to this need for Jack's presence in his life. He is so emotionally invested in Jack that the thought of loosing him forever scared, yet humbled him imo. Jack was so much a part of him, Ennis knew they both had so much to loose. Just a thought.
I agree with both of you, in that the significant difference is the presence of Jack in the latter scene. In the first scene, the kneeling posture can also be interpreted as a kind of surrender, but it gains monumentality with the presence of Jack in the later scene. The significance is all to hard to ignore.
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Ennis watching Jack - Jack watching Ennis
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FEnniswatchingJack.jpg&hash=926645bb4c7be0dd64d4be2993c4ae23d7963ece) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FJackwatchingEnnis.jpg&hash=bb3a482c04ec06e9c1b39ec41a5074a5f4246580)
Ennis watches Jack struggle with a bucking horse and ride off, later Jack watches Ennis mount and ride off after the Dozy Embrace. Two different scenes with different emotional content but the look in the eyes seems to be wondering the same thoughts.
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Ennis watching Jack - Jack watching Ennis
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FEnniswatchingJack.jpg&hash=926645bb4c7be0dd64d4be2993c4ae23d7963ece) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FJackwatchingEnnis.jpg&hash=bb3a482c04ec06e9c1b39ec41a5074a5f4246580)
Ennis watches Jack struggle with a bucking horse and ride off, later Jack watches Ennis mount and ride off after the Dozy Embrace. Two different scenes with different emotional content but the look in the eyes seems to be wondering the same thoughts.
I agree and don't... It's a picture of Ennis watching Jack, nothing happened yet but... This picture of him reminds me one of the first shots of Jack at the beginning of the movie, meeting and looking at Ennis for the first time...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2FJack%2Fbrokeback_012.jpg&hash=c03bf7164e340196737904447e8eea204e194b0e) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FEnniswatchingJack.jpg&hash=926645bb4c7be0dd64d4be2993c4ae23d7963ece)
They for sure look at each other ???
About this picture...
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FJackwatchingEnnis.jpg&hash=bb3a482c04ec06e9c1b39ec41a5074a5f4246580)
The ice is already broken and the unspeakable happened. I wish I could find a corresponding picture of Ennis, but I could find none... or sad ones after Jack is gone. :\'(
I shall take a brake of this thread. :-\\
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Yes Cham, I think I know what you mean here. The emotional content is so different in the scenes, but the action with the other guy riding away on a horseback seems so similar. I think that maybe you're right and emotionally the opposing picture of Ennis might really be this:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2Fbbm1705.jpg&hash=8265735efe147371b4a8ab16ef5b53c47722a035) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FJackwatchingEnnis.jpg&hash=bb3a482c04ec06e9c1b39ec41a5074a5f4246580)
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Yes and not,because one more time the context is very different:in Jack´s case,the look is from a lover who is seeing his loved running away from him for a while,knowing that it´s only a parenthesis that won´t impede their love story to continue.In Ennis´,unfortunately,we find ourselves before the irremediable;the parenthesis is broken forever and now there´s the emptiness,the nothingness...And,apart of the different circumstances,there´s not a visual contact with the lover (or future lover),as in these two other two pictures
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh137%2Fchameau_7%2FJack%2Fbrokeback_012.jpg&hash=c03bf7164e340196737904447e8eea204e194b0e) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FEnniswatchingJack.jpg&hash=926645bb4c7be0dd64d4be2993c4ae23d7963ece)
They´re looking at the other when their relationship was at the beguinning,they know barely nothing about each other,and in the sense the similarity can be greater.Looks of love from Ennis to Jack?:when he is joking about he´s forgetting his harmonica;when they´re by the river speaking about their respective relationship with "women";when they´re carrying the sheeps from the mountain while Jack is playing the harmonica again...They are glances that speak a lot about his feelings,much more than his (few)words;but I think there´s not a picture of real love from Ennis when he´s losing Jack for a while-not forever-.
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Interesting comparisons. Thanks friends.
I agree on the comment about different emotional content vis-s-vis similar looking scenes. One other example of this are two scenes showing Jack riding alone: one is at the beginning of their stay in BBM, where he goes up to spend the night with the sheep;
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hotflick.net%2Fflicks%2F2005_Brokeback_Mountain%2F005BBM_Jake_Gyllenhaal_016.jpg&hash=8dd01bdd183fafc51adb84be13f1061b76cd9f01)
the other, when he returns to camp without finding Ennis:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hotflick.net%2Fflicks%2F2005_Brokeback_Mountain%2F005BBM_Jake_Gyllenhaal_023.jpg&hash=9ba634f66cafa0de0d1cff9bbd884b355c05c9d0)
Although the emotional and overall content of the two scenes are very different, I still somehow managed to confused pictures from these two scenes in the beginning. There is a similar look or feel with the two scenes, perhaps?
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Interesting comparisons. Thanks friends.
I agree on the comment about different emotional content vis-s-vis similar looking scenes. One other example of this are two scenes showing Jack riding alone: one is at the beginning of their stay in BBM, where he goes up to spend the night with the sheep;
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hotflick.net%2Fflicks%2F2005_Brokeback_Mountain%2F005BBM_Jake_Gyllenhaal_016.jpg&hash=8dd01bdd183fafc51adb84be13f1061b76cd9f01)
the other, when he returns to camp without finding Ennis:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hotflick.net%2Fflicks%2F2005_Brokeback_Mountain%2F005BBM_Jake_Gyllenhaal_023.jpg&hash=9ba634f66cafa0de0d1cff9bbd884b355c05c9d0)
Although the emotional and overall content of the two scenes are very different, I still somehow managed to confused pictures from these two scenes in the beginning. There is a similar look or feel with the two scenes, perhaps?
Perhaps a feeling of loneliness and progressive need that he hope to fill with the one he was running away from in the first, and he didn´t find in the second picture.Does this make sense?.
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Perhaps a feeling of loneliness and progressive need that he hope to fill with the one he was running away from in the first, and he didn´t find in the second picture.Does this make sense?.
Yes, this makes perfect sense -- the sense of longing is the common element in both scenes, I believe. Thanks MPJ!
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I found two small scenes, or am I over-imaginative?
1. The scenes where Jack shaves at the beginning of the film and where Ennis shaves at the camp site. I wondered why Ang Lee made them do this particular thing in the film and figured may be he wanted to emphasize that this was a story about two men. Because for me, shaving is a kind of symbol of men. It's not what women do everyday.
2. The scene where Ennis removes off jack's hat after the SNIT and where Ennis removes off Jack's hat at the reunion scene. I wonder how many times Ennis took off Jack's hat, when he wanted him, during those twenty years.
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I found two small scenes, or am I over-imaginative?
1. The scenes where Jack shaves at the beginning of the film and where Ennis shaves at the camp site. I wondered why Ang Lee made them do this particular thing in the film and figured may be he wanted to emphasize that this was a story about two men. Because for me, shaving is a kind of symbol of men. It's not what women do everyday.
2. The scene where Ennis removes off jack's hat after the SNIT and where Ennis removes off Jack's hat at the reunion scene. I wonder how many times Ennis took off Jack's hat, when he wanted him, during those twenty years.
You are not being over-imaginitive, ak. I love both of them. I also did happen to notice the first one, so you are certainly not alone. :)
And welcome to the forum!
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I found two small scenes, or am I over-imaginative?
1. The scenes where Jack shaves at the beginning of the film and where Ennis shaves at the camp site. I wondered why Ang Lee made them do this particular thing in the film and figured may be he wanted to emphasize that this was a story about two men. Because for me, shaving is a kind of symbol of men. It's not what women do everyday.
2. The scene where Ennis removes off jack's hat after the SNIT and where Ennis removes off Jack's hat at the reunion scene. I wonder how many times Ennis took off Jack's hat, when he wanted him, during those twenty years.
WOW, very good points. I love the first one and I agree, and I wonder too about the second point.
Thank you!!
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi357.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo18%2FJoshBBM%2F1%2520forum%2Fcap868.jpg&hash=ea87f2cebb32f758ce51add70ed4861cec940eb4)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi357.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo18%2FJoshBBM%2F1%2520forum%2FPDVD_2252.jpg&hash=7db138321733452add45442e5b3450dc22271f3b)
A few time ago I spoke with two other Brokies about the similarity of these two scenes-although they maybe could be included in the thread "Double meanings"...-.One of them says that in the first pic,Ennis turns his back to Alma,as if he didn't want to see her,maybe because he's believing that is Jack who is holding him.And that in the second,it's Ennis who is holding Jack,but he does it without wanting to see that is him whom is holding.She declared that all Ennis inner fight is seen in these two pics;that he never could be himself,neither with Jack,nor with Alma.
I said on my part that it also can mean that in the first pic is Ennis the held by Alma,the one who really loves.And that with Jack,he's the active part-I'm not talking about the sexual sense... %( -,who holds Jack,who is the person he really loves too.Like a change of positions and feelings...What's your opinion about?.
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi357.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo18%2FJoshBBM%2F1%2520forum%2Fcap868.jpg&hash=ea87f2cebb32f758ce51add70ed4861cec940eb4)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi357.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo18%2FJoshBBM%2F1%2520forum%2FPDVD_2252.jpg&hash=7db138321733452add45442e5b3450dc22271f3b)
A few time ago I spoke with two other Brokies about the similarity of these two scenes-although they maybe could be included in the thread "Double meanings"...-.One of them says that in the first pic,Ennis turns his back to Alma,as if he didn't want to see her,maybe because he's believing that is Jack who is holding him.And that in the second,it's Ennis who is holding Jack,but he does it without wanting to see that is him whom is holding.She declared that all Ennis inner fight is seen in these two pics;that he never could be himself,neither with Jack,nor with Alma.
I said on my part that it also can mean that in the first pic is Ennis the held by Alma,the one who really loves.And that with Jack,he's the active part-I'm not talking about the sexual sense... %( -,who holds Jack,who is the person he really loves too.Like a change of positions and feelings...What's your opinion about?.
This is very good remark - Ennis being held by someone who loves him and holding someone he loves. In both cases not able to surrender completely.
Very good thread indeed. So many similarities in the movie to explore. :)
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A few time ago I spoke with two other Brokies about the similarity of these two scenes-although they maybe could be included in the thread "Double meanings"...-.One of them says that in the first pic,Ennis turns his back to Alma,as if he didn't want to see her,maybe because he's believing that is Jack who is holding him.And that in the second,it's Ennis who is holding Jack,but he does it without wanting to see that is him whom is holding.She declared that all Ennis inner fight is seen in these two pics;that he never could be himself,neither with Jack,nor with Alma.
I said on my part that it also can mean that in the first pic is Ennis the held by Alma,the one who really loves.And that with Jack,he's the active part-I'm not talking about the sexual sense... %( -,who holds Jack,who is the person he really loves too.Like a change of positions and feelings...What's your opinion about?.
Yes, I also felt that there was parity in these scens -- not exactky the same, but a sort of mirror image, if you will.
And the meaning you ascribe to it is indeed quite interesting. Whether or not it is intentional, I think they do seem to echo each other, taking into account the change in postions or POV.
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Yes, I also felt that there was parity in these scens -- not exactky the same, but a sort of mirror image, if you will.
And the meaning you ascribe to it is indeed quite interesting. Whether or not it is intentional, I think they do seem to echo each other, taking into account the change in postions or POV.
Yes,exactly; is this what IMO my fellow wanted to say ¡ Like a mirror where it's reflected Ennis wishes and fears,what attracts him and what he rejects...He is hold and he holds,but in both cases,he doesn't want to look at the active or passive person of the action.It's as if he doesn't want to face to reality,the reality he has and the reality he wants to have,but he's afraid to accept fully.And,on the other hand,the positions change-loving and be loved-it's fairly clear,always with Ennis in the middle.Any other idea?.
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Yes,exactly; is this what IMO my fellow wanted to say ¡ Like a mirror where it's reflected Ennis wishes and fears,what attracts him and what he rejects...He is hold and he holds,but in both cases,he doesn't want to look at the active or passive person of the action.It's as if he doesn't want to face to reality,the reality he has and the reality he wants to have,but he's afraid to accept fully.And,on the other hand,the positions change-loving and be loved-it's fairly clear,always with Ennis in the middle.Any other idea?.
In both scenes, we indedd see his reluctance to see/acknowledge who he is holding (in one scene) who is holding him (in the other scene.) The symmeties and asymmetries are quite fascinating.
I think you have struck a rich vein here. There is so much symbolism and meaning one can draw from this comparison, whether it is intentional or not...
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In both scenes, we indedd see his reluctance to see/acknowledge who he is holding (in one scene) who is holding him (in the other scene.) The symmeties and asymmetries are quite fascinating.
I think you have struck a rich vein here. There is so much symbolism and meaning one can draw from this comparison, whether it is intentional or not...
I do think it's intentional,like a way to show us that Ennis could never be himself,even with the persons he loved and who loved him the most-or precisely for this reason...-.
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I do think it's intentional,like a way to show us that Ennis could never be himself,even with the persons he loved and who loved him the most-or precisely for this reason...-.
Yes, it is too perfect to be just coincidental. We see the subtle hand of the director here. The funny thing is that any connection drawn by a viewer is probably subliminal. It works just below our consciousness.
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi357.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo18%2FJoshBBM%2F1%2520forum%2Fcap868.jpg&hash=ea87f2cebb32f758ce51add70ed4861cec940eb4) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi357.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo18%2FJoshBBM%2F1%2520forum%2FPDVD_2252.jpg&hash=7db138321733452add45442e5b3450dc22271f3b)
. . . Ennis turns his back to Alma, as if he didn't want to see her, maybe because he's believing that is Jack who is holding him. . . in the second, it's Ennis who is holding Jack, . .
Great observation MPJ! And great comments too. You can bet that with Ang Lee there are no "accidents", this was certainly intentional and one more example of his complete mastery and understanding of the tale he was telling on film.
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Great observation MPJ! And great comments too. You can bet that with Ang Lee there are no "accidents", this was certainly intentional and one more example of his complete mastery and understanding of the tale he was telling on film.
Thank you,Jackster ¡ I guess he knows why every scene,gesture or even position is this,and no other...And I also guess that these similar scenes are a way of showing the double Ennis negation: denying his social relationship(what he MUST do) but denying also his personal relationship(what he WANTED to do).
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Great observation MPJ! And great comments too. You can bet that with Ang Lee there are no "accidents", this was certainly intentional and one more example of his complete mastery and understanding of the tale he was telling on film.
Thank you,Jackster ¡ I guess he knows why every scene,gesture or even position is this,and no other...And I also guess that these similar scenes are a way of showing the double Ennis negation: denying his social relationship(what he MUST do) but denying also his personal relationship(what he WANTED to do).
I agree! No "accidental" similarities! And MPJ made a great parallel here! :^^)
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Thank you,Jackster ¡ I guess he knows why every scene,gesture or even position is this,and no other...And I also guess that these similar scenes are a way of showing the double Ennis negation: denying his social relationship(what he MUST do) but denying also his personal relationship(what he WANTED to do).
Again, a very good point.
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Again, a very good point.
Thank you so much again,Thomas ¡ ;) I guess that,although Ennis complexity,is easier to understand him than it seems at a first glance; everything can be sum up by saying "fear and denial of himself".
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Thank you so much again,Thomas ¡ ;) I guess that,although Ennis complexity,is easier to understand him than it seems at a first glance; everything can be sum up by saying "fear and denial of himself".
Yes, in certain fundamental aspects, Ennis was relatively "simple." It was his inability to appreciate the repercussions of his actions that made things more complicated than it seemed, IMO.
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Yes, in certain fundamental aspects, Ennis was relatively "simple." It was his inability to appreciate the repercussions of his actions that made things more complicated than it seemed, IMO.
But that someone can be defined easily,doesn't mean that the consequences of this apparently simplicity,can't be very complicated,for himself and for the others who surround him.
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But that someone can be defined easily,doesn't mean that the consequences of this apparently simplicity,can't be very complicated,for himself and for the others who surround him.
Yes, I agree. The refusal to see implicit complexities (as simple people are apt to do sometimes) can in itself lead to improbable complexities. This was certainly true in the case of Ennis.
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi357.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo18%2FJoshBBM%2F1%2520forum%2Fcap868.jpg&hash=ea87f2cebb32f758ce51add70ed4861cec940eb4) (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi357.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo18%2FJoshBBM%2F1%2520forum%2FPDVD_2252.jpg&hash=7db138321733452add45442e5b3450dc22271f3b)
MPJ:
In looking again at these two scenes you posted I am struck by the incredible similarity in the facial expressions of Ennis & Jack (Heath & Jake). Both dreamin', in an almost expressionless trance, like they have left their bodies, dreamin' of a world where they are being loved, where they are wanted. Their eyes, lips, even cheeks seem to evoke exactly the same reverie and emotion here. What an amazing pair.
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MPJ:
In looking again at these two scenes you posted I am struck by the incredible similarity in the facial expressions of Ennis & Jack (Heath & Jake). Both dreamin', in an almost expressionless trance, like they have left their bodies, dreamin' of a world where they are being loved, where they are wanted. Their eyes, lips, even cheeks seem to evoke exactly the same reverie and emotion here. What an amazing pair.
Yes,I can also see this similarity between Ennis and Jack in these two scenes; as a matter of fact,the two of them are,as you say,dreaming in their perfect world,living each second of the sensation of being loved-Jack living it at the present,Ennis as a far memory that he believed wasn't going to repeat-.And I like this "no similar similarity" of Ennis playing the active and the passive role in each scene,but always not feeling completely satisfied with what he's got...
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Ennis and Alma also have the same expression in these two scenes, don't you think? Holding someone they love.
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MPJ:
In looking again at these two scenes you posted I am struck by the incredible similarity in the facial expressions of Ennis & Jack (Heath & Jake). Both dreamin', in an almost expressionless trance, like they have left their bodies, dreamin' of a world where they are being loved, where they are wanted. Their eyes, lips, even cheeks seem to evoke exactly the same reverie and emotion here. What an amazing pair.
They seem to be completely outside of themselves -- and yes, there are a few other instances where the look tells us all: that one was dreaming of the other.
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Ennis and Alma also have the same expression in these two scenes, don't you think? Holding someone they love.
I think so too -- a look of genuine affection.
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Ennis and Alma also have the same expression in these two scenes, don't you think? Holding someone they love.
Yes,it's so...Even if in each case,who holds in one and is held in the other one-the same person-is not so sure of his feelings and/or doesn't want to be sure...
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Yes,it's so...Even if in each case,who holds in one and is held in the other one-the same person-is not so sure of his feelings and/or doesn't want to be sure...
Maybe, afraid to be sure, cos the truth would be difficult to handle.
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Yes,it's so...Even if in each case,who holds in one and is held in the other one-the same person-is not so sure of his feelings and/or doesn't want to be sure...
I think that in both instances, Ennis was thinking about Jack. :) With Alma, he looked like a man distracted from his own inner thoughts...
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I think that in both instances, Ennis was thinking about Jack. :) With Alma, he looked like a man distracted from his own inner thoughts...
I agree,but;could it be that with Alma,Ennis was thinking about Jack-the one whom he held,the one he loved-but with Jack himself he was thinking in Alma-the one who held him,the one who loved hi too-of self-defense against his "queerness"?It's just a thought that has appeared in my mind suddenly...What's your opinion?.
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I agree,but;could it be that with Alma,Ennis was thinking about Jack-the one whom he held,the one he loved-but with Jack himself he was thinking in Alma-the one who held him,the one who loved hi too-of self-defense against his "queerness"?It's just a thought that has appeared in my mind suddenly...What's your opinion?.
Hm... Alma held him after he held Jack, so it would be difficult for him to think about Alma who had held him... :)
But even during DE Ennis had a wish that Jack was a woman, not a man that he was holding, Ennis could never think of anyone else in his arms than Jack... well, here I go again! Never see them apart! %&)
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I agree,but;could it be that with Alma,Ennis was thinking about Jack-the one whom he held,the one he loved-but with Jack himself he was thinking in Alma-the one who held him,the one who loved hi too-of self-defense against his "queerness"?It's just a thought that has appeared in my mind suddenly...What's your opinion?.
Well, I thought that Ennis was thinking of Jack all the time. :)
It is interesting that in the DE, Ennis takes the part of his mother -- taking Jack as the young Ennis being put to bed. I find this an interesting transposition...
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Well, I thought that Ennis was thinking of Jack all the time. :)
It is interesting that in the DE, Ennis takes the part of his mother -- taking Jack as the young Ennis being put to bed. I find this an interesting transposition...
I believe that both Ennis' and Jack's misfortune childhood was one of the reasons why they connection/chemistry was so powerful. The DE showed all their childhood hunger for love - Ennis' showed it through seeing Jack as himself as a boy, and Jack showed it by keeping the DE as a most powerful memory from Brokeback!
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I believe that both Ennis' and Jack's misfortune childhood was one of the reasons why they connection/chemistry was so powerful. The DE showed all their childhood hunger for love - Ennis' showed it through seeing Jack as himself as a boy, and Jack showed it by keeping the DE as a most powerful memory from Brokeback!
Yes,I agree in that their respective lack of a real affection-in spite of Mrs.Twist love for his son,his father was a good and effective counter balance-was one of the main reasons for being better and more quickly connected as a friends in a first moment.In DE scene we see how Ennis treats Jack with the love and care his mother had for him when he was a child; he wanted in that moment to pass his love from a person of his past-his mother-to a person of his present-Jack-.And Jack receives this behaviour keeping it in his heart during the rest of his life,because Ennis was then the only person who cares for him and loves him in a whole sense,not only the sexual one.
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Yes,I agree in that their respective lack of a real affection-in spite of Mrs.Twist love for his son,his father was a good and effective counter balance-was one of the main reasons for being better and more quickly connected as a friends in a first moment.In DE scene we see how Ennis treats Jack with the love and care his mother had for him when he was a child; he wanted in that moment to pass his love from a person of his past-his mother-to a person of his present-Jack-.And Jack receives this behaviour keeping it in his heart during the rest of his life,because Ennis was then the only person who cares for him and loves him in a whole sense,not only the sexual one.
DE is a mixture of many feelings. I believe that the emphasis is on Ennis' wish to be loved as a boy, where he takes his mother role and pass his love to Jack who at that moment represents himself -Ennis. That's why this scene is so difficult to absorb. When Ennis saw Jack standing there, almost sleeping, he saw himself and wanted to embrace a love needing boy - Ennis. And he embraced Jack - the other one who also needed love, and whom he loved the most in the world... Well... something like that! It is complicated, but it is beautiful. <^( And sad! :\'(
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I believe that both Ennis' and Jack's misfortune childhood was one of the reasons why they connection/chemistry was so powerful. The DE showed all their childhood hunger for love - Ennis' showed it through seeing Jack as himself as a boy, and Jack showed it by keeping the DE as a most powerful memory from Brokeback!
Yes,I agree in that their respective lack of a real affection-in spite of Mrs.Twist love for his son,his father was a good and effective counter balance-was one of the main reasons for being better and more quickly connected as a friends in a first moment.In DE scene we see how Ennis treats Jack with the love and care his mother had for him when he was a child; he wanted in that moment to pass his love from a person of his past-his mother-to a person of his present-Jack-.And Jack receives this behaviour keeping it in his heart during the rest of his life,because Ennis was then the only person who cares for him and loves him in a whole sense,not only the sexual one.
It is indeed interesting to note that the DE connected with just that: the experience of love in an otherwise unhappy childhood.
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How about when you see young Ennis have to look at the dead guy in the ditch and Jack
says "you seen this?" Later jack sees it first hand.
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How about when you see young Ennis have to look at the dead guy in the ditch and Jack
says "you seen this?" Later jack sees it first hand.
Excellent point, godfather. A tragic similarity...
And a big welcome to you!
kathy
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How about when you see young Ennis have to look at the dead guy in the ditch and Jack
says "you seen this?" Later jack sees it first hand.
Excellent point, godfather. A tragic similarity...
And a big welcome to you!
kathy
yes, an excellent point. Perhaps a premonition of things to come?
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DE is a mixture of many feelings. I believe that the emphasis is on Ennis' wish to be loved as a boy, where he takes his mother role and pass his love to Jack who at that moment represents himself -Ennis. That's why this scene is so difficult to absorb. When Ennis saw Jack standing there, almost sleeping, he saw himself and wanted to embrace a love needing boy - Ennis. And he embraced Jack - the other one who also needed love, and whom he loved the most in the world... Well... something like that! It is complicated, but it is beautiful. <^( And sad! :\'(
WOW Loreen...I never thought of it that way. :clap:
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Morning after SNIT (maybe):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FSNITmornin.jpg&hash=8b7e0599473d0ad93482a8668d658791d954e084)
Wrestle (then fight) on BBM:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FBBM-fight.jpg&hash=8e83d820da183dd6c3fd1aae77df847630a4fb11)
Ennis does kiss Jack in first scene, would like to kiss him in the second, but is too confused?
Both highly erotic IMHO. Whataya' think?
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Morning after SNIT (maybe):
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FSNITmornin.jpg&hash=8b7e0599473d0ad93482a8668d658791d954e084)
Wrestle (then fight) on BBM:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FBBM-fight.jpg&hash=8e83d820da183dd6c3fd1aae77df847630a4fb11)
Ennis does kiss Jack in first scene, would like to kiss him in the second, but is too confused?
Both highly erotic IMHO. Whataya' think?
Yup! Highly! :P :P :P
The second one is shadowed by the sad end though.
The relation of wrestling and caressing was like an obverse to the relation of silence and love statement. It was easier for them to wrestle than to show tenderness (in the open space), as well as it was easier to say: "You don't know how bad it gets" or "It's because of you Jack...", than to say :"I love you, you dumbass!"
Never open to each other enough! :(
And now I really now does this make sense at all! ^*()
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Yup! Highly! :P :P :P
The second one is shadowed by the sad end though.
The relation of wrestling and caressing was like an obverse to the relation of silence and love statement. It was easier for them to wrestle than to show tenderness (in the open space), as well as it was easier to say: "You don't know how bad it gets" or "It's because of you Jack...", than to say :"I love you, you dumbass!"
Never open to each other enough! :(
And now I really now does this make sense at all! ^*()
I agree with you that for both of them it was easier to act than to speak in love's matters.However,in this concret case,the struggle in the second pic is more a relief from the nervous breakdown of the situation than a way of showing something that words couldn't demonstrate.Even if it's true what they say that from love to hate there's only few steps... ^*()
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Very good comparison, jackster!
Can I suggest a third one sort of "similar" to the other 2? The final collapse in the Last Confrontation. It seems like hugging and wrestling all at the same time...
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Very good comparison, jackster!
Can I suggest a third one sort of "similar" to the other 2? The final collapse in the Last Confrontation. It seems like hugging and wrestling all at the same time...
That was more like a convulsion with only a hint of wrestling. IMHO, that is...
I'd rather put the reunion kiss in the category of wrestling than FC hug... would you agree? Even, that is also a long shot...:s)...
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Very good comparison, jackster!
Can I suggest a third one sort of "similar" to the other 2? The final collapse in the Last Confrontation. It seems like hugging and wrestling all at the same time...
Yes thomas and loreen (sorry loreen forgot to add your name here too %&)), right on. I know as a fact that for a lot of males this very true. It is a murky line between the two, many guys become quite, shall we say, "excited" during wrestling matches, I've no doubt Ennis was feelin' somewhat the same here. Grappling around on the ground, turning and flipping, grabbing and grasping, holding and squeezing - are we talking love or battle (or both)? I surely believe Ennis, like Annie says, going "full throttle" as he did, really didn't make much distinction between the two. FNIT with Jack or a night in bed with Alma, lots of other examples.
For me this is one of the really intriguing aspects of Ennis's personality, his blurring of this line. I think it's (one aspect) of what makes Heath's Ennis so sexy, this somewhat animalistic drive - it's like watching a fire burn (a campfire say) - sometimes you can't take your eyes off it, it enchants you. For me its also what makes SNIT all the more powerful, when this drive is seemingly turned on its head and becomes a need. Oh yeah.
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That was more like a convulsion with only a hint of wrestling. IMHO, that is...
I'd rather put the reunion kiss in the category of wrestling than FC hug... would you agree? Even, that is also a long shot...:s)...
Interesting. I would add the reunion kiss. But I would think that Last Confrontation was equally reminiscent...
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Yes thomas, right on. I know as a fact that for a lot of males this very true. It is a murky line between the two, many guys become quite, shall we say, "excited" during wrestling matches, I've no doubt Ennis was feelin' somewhat the same here. Grappling around on the ground, turning and flipping, grabbing and grasping, holding and squeezing - are we talking love or battle (or both)? I surely believe Ennis, like Annie says, going "full throttle" as he did, really didn't make much distinction between the two. FNIT with Jack or a night in bed with Alma, lots of other examples.
For me this is one of the really intriguing aspects of Ennis's personality, his blurring of this line. I think it's (one aspect) of what makes Heath's Ennis so sexy, this somewhat animalistic drive - it's like watching a fire burn (a campfire say) - sometimes you can't take your eyes off it, it enchants you. For me its also what makes SNIT all the more powerful, when this drive is seemingly turned on its head and becomes a need. Oh yeah.
I think you explained my thoughts better. In the embrace of the last confrontation, it was largely static, but you can feel the tension in the grasp -- and a static equilibrium could be very unstable in that a slight change in the balance could flip things over.
Animalistic in the sense of being driven by instinct/intuition, I suppose. And feeling -- explosive feeling -- of course.
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Interesting. I would add the reunion kiss. But I would think that Last Confrontation was equally reminiscent...
Hm... jackster mentioned FNIT - oh yeah! :P That is, but FC... :s)... I don't see it. In FC the things were not supposed to heat up,but to calm down ... Ennis's convulsion was so disturbing and painful for Jack to watch that he neglected his own pain (as always :( ) and comforted Ennis. Not much of the freedom and spontaneity as other occasions- including FNIT and passion of the reunion kiss. Just MO!
The roughness of the wrestling was IMO a way to cover up for the tenderness they needed to share, and that's another reason why I don't see it in FC, but you guys usually see things deeper and different than I do, so I might be thoroughly wrong... ^*()
Not to mention that naughty tpe can always transfer me to the "dark side" as with LF! ;) ;D
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The roughness of the wrestling was IMO a way to cover up for the tenderness they needed to share, and that's another reason why I don't see it in FC,
Agree 100% here loreen. Think Ennis was one of those (or maybe I should say "us") that has a difficult time bein' or a least showin' - tenderness. Too afraid it's the same as showin' weakness. Well, it ain't, but that's another topic. This is one of the interesting, or one might say intriguing, aspects of same sex relationships, either male or (I suppose) female. When there ain't no reins on the thing, and it ain't so defined by society expectations, you gotta' make it up as you go along and try and make sure the other party understands things the way you do. No easy task. Ennis & Jack had a difficult time here no doubt. Are we two fu**in' warriors, or, two warriors fu**in'? Maybe both huh? Can be a tough picture to make sense of for two men, one of the reasons (IMO) that this story is so compelling. Amazin' to me that Annie realized this and was able to turn it into such a masterpiece.
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Well, it's not that any of us see things deeper. It's just that each of as has his/her unique point of view. :)
It also very much depends on our own personal experiences, ot similar instances in our own lives, I guess?
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Well, it's not that any of us see things deeper. It's just that each of as has his/her unique point of view. :)
It also very much depends on our own personal experiences, ot similar instances in our own lives, I guess?
I guess so! ::) ::) ::)
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I guess so! ::) ::) ::)
There is certainly no one way of looking at things -- even though certain POVs/interpretations may be more "accepted" than others. ;)
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"See ya' for supper" - Jack says, looking up to Ennis just after FNIT as Ennis rides away.
"You come back and see us again" Jack's ma says, looking up to Ennis as he gets ready to leave their house.
A remarkable similarity here between mother and son, saying pretty much the same thing to the same man - No matter what you think, how you may feel, rest assured I love you and want to see you again. I don't know if this was intentional on the part of the actors or director, but they, Jake and Roberta, exude very much the same feeling here to me, the way these words are expressed makes it feel like they really were mother and son. MHO.
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"See ya' for supper" - Jack says, looking up to Ennis just after FNIT as Ennis rides away.
"You come back and see us again" Jack's ma says, looking up to Ennis as he gets ready to leave their house.
A remarkable similarity here between mother and son, saying pretty much the same thing to the same man - No matter what you think, how you may feel, rest assured I love you and want to see you again. I don't know if this was intentional on the part of the actors or director, but they, Jake and Roberta, exude very much the same feeling here to me, the way these words are expressed makes it feel like they really were mother and son. MHO.
Wonderful comparison, Jackster. Yes, I do agree that both were expressions of deep reassurance... and love, IMO...
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Wonderful comparison, Jackster. Yes, I do agree that both were expressions of deep reassurance... and love, IMO...
I agree in everything.As a matter of fact,the three of them were tied for deep bonds of comprehension and love. <^(
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I agree in everything.As a matter of fact,the three of them were tied for deep bonds of comprehension and love. <^(
Although the comprehension was implicit and never truly out in the open, it doesn not diminish it's "REAL-NESS" and power... It was deep below the surface of things.
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I read every post....and no one noticed....
THE BLOODY SHIRTS ON THE HANGER...
In the closet at the Twists farm house, the dark blue shirt (Jacks) covers the plaid shirt (Ennis')....this is the way Jack hung them on one hanger.
When Ennis opens his closet at his trailer (last scene) the shirts have been reversed...the light plaid shirt is on top and the dark blue shirt is inside...
How sweet...How romantic of an old cowboy...his was not in the book...this had to be a touch from Ang....
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I read every post....and no one noticed....
THE BLOODY SHIRTS ON THE HANGER...
In the closet at the Twists farm house, the dark blue shirt (Jacks) covers the plaid shirt (Ennis')....this is the way Jack hung them on one hanger.
When Ennis opens his closet at his trailer (last scene) the shirts have been reversed...the light plaid shirt is on top and the dark blue shirt is inside...
How sweet...How romantic of an old cowboy...his was not in the book...this had to be a touch from Ang....
As a matter of fact,this has been talked about in any other place of this forum;even if I think it's more proper to add it in the "Double meanings" thread than in it,if you allow me...Because in the beginning,Jack's jacket was covering Ennis as a way to protect him,to get him safe from his fears of being attacked for their relationship;and,in the end,they have been changed because Ennis wants,somehow,to give Jack in the other world the protection than he hadn't given to him in this Earth world...or he had given in his own way,not wanting to share with him this "sweet life".
And,yes,it was not in the book,but it was a touch from Heath,who "entered" so much in the story and the feeling of his character that wanted to put the shirts in this way.He gave us a hint of his talent,doubtless... :_(
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At the time the movie was being made, Heath and Michelle started their love affair...I think when you are feeling that wonderful feeling, you certainly can contribute a lot of romance...
I once had a boyfriend who put our two tooth brushes togeher as if they were kissing...pushed the brissels together and left them in the bathroom cup....so cute and sweet...guys get that silly love feeling thing just as much as girls. #s}