Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: manhattangirl on Feb 10, 2007, 06:01 PM
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Ennis was really never challenge to make a decision as far as Jack was concern. He always assumed, no matter what going on between them, Jack would always return to him. Apparently, Jack knew what to tell and what not to tell Ennis, but what if he would have told him that there was someone else that wanted him, like Randall. How would Ennis react?
(if this was asked before, please forgive me)
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hatever he felt, I can't see Ennis doing anything about it. He'd just think it was something else he had to stand - I can't imagine him rushing off to Childress to reclaim Jack from Randall.
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hatever he felt, I can't see Ennis doing anything about it. He'd just think it was something else he had to stand - I can't imagine him rushing off to Childress to reclaim Jack from Randall.
Thanks WW: It was just an idea, I had. I was just wondering if this actual happen in the story, that Ennis was honestly confronted with the knowledge that he could lose Jack to someone else. What would be different in the outcome. That maybe he'd wake-up and just take that chance. Actually be a participant in this love. Even if the outcome would still be the same, at least he tried, instead of letting Jack just slip away from him.
Every time I watch this film, I get so angry, Ennis had something we all want in life, a person so totally dedicated to us, who loves us, who wants us, who will take chances to be with us. What does he do? He's turns his back on it.
Jack had no fear, he got in his truck and went to him, Jack knew better then Ennis how it could be out there in the real world, and he still wanted the "Sweet Life".
Look, maybe what happen to Ennis in the end was something he constructed for himself, therefore a just ending. What I mean is, he layed the ground work for years, for this conclusion in this story. Alone, in a trailer in the middle of nowhere, where he could mourn his lover of twenty years, without fear of the outside world.
Anyway, thanks again WW.
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Well Ennis was mighty unhappy about Mexico so I think that having the knowledge of Randall would have brought on a fiercer reaction. Mexico was a bunch of nameless, faceless people whereas Randall was in close proximity to Jack, had a name and a face and was more of a threat. Seeing his reaction to all them things he don't know I could see Ennis being incredibly angry and hauling off and punching him. I think that hearing about Randall from Papa Twist was like a new knife plunged into his heart and that's what makes the shirts more impactful (to me). Do I think Ennis would have stopped traveling around the coffeepot and make his way to Texas? No. I'd like to think he would. I do think it would have made him stop and think though- that Jack was planning on getting his sweet life with or without Ennis. I think it would have been a wake up call of sorts for him.
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Ennis was really never challenge to make a decision as far as Jack was concern. He always assumed, no matter what going on between them, Jack would always return to him. Apparently, Jack knew what to tell and what not to tell Ennis, but what if he would have told him that there was someone else that wanted him, like Randall. How would Ennis react?
(if this was asked before, please forgive me)
I believe Ennis, in a moment of jealous rage, could have harmed Jack.
I don't think Ennis was ever really in control where Jack was concerned -- even if Ennis called all the shots in the relationship, he felt himself a prisoner of his love for Jack. He was faithful to that love, and expected the same thing from Jack.
So Ennis didn't really see himself as the controller of the relationship. Hnece, he would have regarded such an event as an outright betrayal. Only later -- after Jack's death -- did he get to understand that what Jack desired most of all was a life together, and that he had harbored this hope for almost 20 years.
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I'm not sure. I think there are certain moments in the story/film that could have turned out differently and this is one of them. I've always thought of them as "what if" moments - what if Jack had turned his truck round and picked Ennis up at the end of the summer, what if Ennis hadn't had the girls when Jack turned up after the divorce....and what if Jack had told him the truth about the "ranch foreman's wife"?
I think tpe may be right in saying that Ennis may have become violent...but I think it may have ended up differently to the punch thrown on Brokeback. Then, the punch was thrown out of frustration and emotion and Jack didn't fully understand that at that time (MadLori put it brilliantly in her fic "Human Interest" - "a fight borne from too many emotions welling up into hearts ill prepared to contain them") But after twenty years? I think he knew that Ennis felt the same way, and I think that if it had come to a punch thrown, he would have been able to say to Ennis "well, you know, it's all down to you - one word from you and I'll never need anyone else". How would Ennis have reacted to that? Maybe the same way he always did - but maybe, just maybe, the very real threat of losing Jack would be enough to make him see sense and take a chance?
Ultimately, the shirts were the wake up call that came too late...and maybe the truth here would have been a more timely reminder to Ennis of all he stood to lose.
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I think tpe may be right in saying that Ennis may have become violent...but I think it may have ended up differently to the punch thrown on Brokeback. Then, the punch was thrown out of frustration and emotion and Jack didn't fully understand that at that time (MadLori put it brilliantly in her fic "Human Interest" - "a fight borne from too many emotions welling up into hearts ill prepared to contain them") But after twenty years? I think he knew that Ennis felt the same way, and I think that if it had come to a punch thrown, he would have been able to say to Ennis "well, you know, it's all down to you - one word from you and I'll never need anyone else". How would Ennis have reacted to that? Maybe the same way he always did - but maybe, just maybe, the very real threat of losing Jack would be enough to make him see sense and take a chance?
Ultimately, the shirts were the wake up call that came too late...and maybe the truth here would have been a more timely reminder to Ennis of all he stood to lose.
True. It is hard for me to think of Ennis killing Jack. Ennis had a surprising amount of self-restraint -- as witnessed in the Thanksgiving scene...
Don't you think that in that last quarrel, Jack was sort of provoking -- daring -- Ennis. That Ennis restrained himself althroughtout contributed to his breaking down, no? I think this was one thing we have seen many times: Ennis keeping all the pain and the hurt all inside himself.
Had he found out, I suspect that he would have been torn apart inside, rather than outside.
"a fight borne from too many emotions welling up into hearts ill prepared to contain them" -- beautifully put.
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Don't you think that in that last quarrel, Jack was sort of provoking -- daring -- Ennis. That Ennis restrained himself althroughtout contributed to his breaking down, no? I think this was one thing we have seen many times: Ennis keeping all the pain and the hurt all inside himself.
Had he found out, I suspect that he would have been torn apart inside, rather than outside.
"a fight borne from too many emotions welling up into hearts ill prepared to contain them" -- beautifully put.
I think Jack was provoking Ennis during that last fight, yes....but I'm not sure that Ennis did manage to keep it all inside. When he collapsed and cried "I just can't stand this anymore Jack", there are two ways you can look at it. Either he was saying "this has to end because it's tearing me apart" or he was saying "we have to find a way to fix this because I can't stand it". I prefer to think it's the latter (yes, I know, hopeless romantic time again ::)) and that, had Jack lived, the conversation they would have had in November might have had a different outcome.
That line may well be my favourite fanfic line ever....
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I don't see Ennis through the prism of fanfic - what I do see is that he can be full of anger but it bursts out at everyone but Jack - the bikers, Alma -in the supermarket, outside the apartment, at Thanksgiving - then at the driver of the pickup outside the bar. The few times he shows aggression to Jack are when they are both already emotionally highly-wrought - when they're leaving the mountain and during the last confrontation.He never takes Jack on one-sidedly, so to speak. So I think if he'd found out or heard from Jack that Randall had become a viable alternative to him, I don't think he's have reacted violently unles Randall had been there, then Ennis might well have attacked him.
Blaming the one whom you don't love for what may be partly or wholly the fault of the one you do is common. And how could Ennis accept that Jack had moved on? It would deprive his life of all meaning. He has to go on believing in Jack.
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This is a question I've thought about many times. Been chillin but I saw this thread posting and could not resist contributing my humble opinion.
Judging from the reaction Jack got from Ennis after the Mexico business, he'd be crazy saying("By the way Ennis, theirs also this guy named Randall I've been seein...") %( %(Ennis was livid at Jack for sharing what was his alone with Mexicn hustlers, and would not be a very understanding man about it. but I agree Randall was much more of a threat to Ennis because of what was said above. Randall had a name, and a face and easy access. which creates more oppotrunity to convince. Being a RANCH FOREMAN could'nt hurt either when were talkin what Jack wanted. He was evrerything Ennis waasnt. Educated, with a promising career with animals. . Ennis's own dream. Ennis would go totally ballistic on Jack out of pure jealosy and pain.IMO ( and Randall too) and Jack knew it.,if this fact was exposed at that last meetig on top of finding out about the strangers Jack had out of desperation. He'd be hurt and angry.....but so was Jack , That's why he did it in the first place. Ennis, although he's mad and maybe violent , Ennis has to accept resonsibilty for his part in this thing with Jack cheating to start with. Jack is willing to take a chance, Ennis is'nt , and neither will budge. Jack attempting to take that chance with someone else would also be unacceptale to Ennis also. He loved Jack and had sacrificed alot himself and Jack loved him thefore nobody really wins. Ennis held all the cards ...and coud'nt deal.My opinion.
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I should think Ennis would react to Randall in much the same wayas the Texas "good old boys" reacted to Jack, though for different reasons. When he arived in Childress, Jack was an outsider - what social status he has is largely as a result of the Newsome connection. Randall to is an outsider - what social status he has may come from the fact that he is a new generation, college-educated - but may therefore be regarded with suspicion by the older generation and almost cetainly by Ennis, who has years less of education. Ennis would know if he met him that he couldn't compete with Randall in terms of education, skills, all sorts of things like the contrasting way in which Randall speaks and dresses - and if you feel inferiour to someone, you tend to assume that others will see you like that. In fact Jack still has more in common with Ennis than with Randall, IMO, and I'm sure would see it.
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Yes, it's ennis whose perceptions are so difficult to call - his experience is so limited that I think he's be suspicious of difference of any sort.
*o) A bad witch, of course - no fun in being the other sort. Have my familiars and my spells, some of which don't always work exactly as I hoped.
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Yes, Ennis would definitly feel an outsider in this and probably wonder how much influence Randall would have over Jack. Ennis bein stuck way up in Wyoming, while Randall is only a hop,skip and a jump from Jack would drive Ennis crazy thinking about this smooth ranch foreman down in Texas puttin the serious moves on his man. At some point he would let Jack know that he was not going to stand for it. Maybe he'd panic at the idea of loosing Jack and agree to settle down with Jack after all. Maybe. Otherwise eventually someone would end up gettin their ass kicked if it does'nt go his way. I don't think he'd just let it go that easily Ennis was not going out like that. After 20 years Ennis considered Jack to be his. He loved him. IMO.
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I think Jack was provoking Ennis during that last fight, yes....but I'm not sure that Ennis did manage to keep it all inside. When he collapsed and cried "I just can't stand this anymore Jack", there are two ways you can look at it. Either he was saying "this has to end because it's tearing me apart" or he was saying "we have to find a way to fix this because I can't stand it". I prefer to think it's the latter (yes, I know, hopeless romantic time again ::)) and that, had Jack lived, the conversation they would have had in November might have had a different outcome.
That line may well be my favourite fanfic line ever....
I would also like to think that the statement "I just can't stand this anymore Jack" may have revealed a new resolve within Ennis (as much as it was a cry for help), and I also think that it was tearing Ennis apart. It is sad that next November never came. Perhaps things may have come to a head there and then... Randal was perhaps part of the calculation of pushing Ennis to finally try to fix things...
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This is a question I've thought about many times. Been chillin but I saw this thread posting and could not resist contributing my humble opinion.
Judging from the reaction Jack got from Ennis after the Mexico business, he'd be crazy saying("By the way Ennis, theirs also this guy named Randall I've been seein...") %( %(Ennis was livid at Jack for sharing what was his alone with Mexicn hustlers, and would not be a very understanding man about it. but I agree Randall was much more of a threat to Ennis because of what was said above. Randall had a name, and a face and easy access. which creates more oppotrunity to convince. Being a RANCH FOREMAN could'nt hurt either when were talkin what Jack wanted. He was evrerything Ennis waasnt. Educated, with a promising career with animals. . Ennis's own dream. Ennis would go totally ballistic on Jack out of pure jealosy and pain.IMO ( and Randall too) and Jack knew it.,if this fact was exposed at that last meetig on top of finding out about the strangers Jack had out of desperation. He'd be hurt and angry.....but so was Jack , That's why he did it in the first place. Ennis, although he's mad and maybe violent , Ennis has to accept resonsibilty for his part in this thing with Jack cheating to start with. Jack is willing to take a chance, Ennis is'nt , and neither will budge. Jack attempting to take that chance with someone else would also be unacceptale to Ennis also. He loved Jack and had sacrificed alot himself and Jack loved him thefore nobody really wins. Ennis held all the cards ...and coud'nt deal.My opinion.
The last statement is an excellent way of putting it.
I think Randall may have also been a way for Jack to finally get some reaction from Ennis -- a chance to possibly move forward. I don't question Jack's resolve to carry on with Randall if he couldn't get Ennis to share a life with him. But I also can't help thinking that in doing so, Jack was forcing Ennis's hand. To see how Ennis really felt was far better than living the status quo, in Jack's mind. Even in his love, he was forever taking risks.
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Hiya friend welshwitch !!
Yes indeed. I agree Jack still had more in common with Ennis then with Randall.A fact that hadn't escaped me I am proud to say. #)
But I feel Ennis,because of his insecurities, would ponder for a spell how much Jack may have changed on him.
Even if Jack was still the same ol' same ol'(bless his heart) <^(.
I would think Ennis would vocalize his concerns, perhaps in the same manner he did 'bout "Mex-he-co" :X.
Jack would smile that....."Man,that's the most you've spoken in two weeks" smile, sense Ennis needed to be reassured of his love and be more than happy to reassure him...AKA another tent scene. ;)
By The way....Are you a good welshwitch or a bad welshwitch ?
This exchange go me to think: had Ennis ever considered the possibility that Jack could have just moved on with another person? I wonder... Perhaps he didn't, although it is hard to imagin ehtat Ennis didn't think about the possibility, given the way he had stymied Jack's often expressed desire for a sweet life together.
Perhaps Ennis was too confident of the power oftheir love. In which case, finding out that Jack was ready to move with someone else would have been catastrophic.
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Given Ennis's nature, I should think it entirely possible that it never occurred to him that Jack might look elsewhere. Ennis isn't imaginative or intuitive, doesn't look elsewhere himself and as Jack says in their last scene together appears to be able to manage on " a few high-altitude f**ks a year". when Jack drives off after the post-divorce meeting, Ennis presumably thinks he's either going back to Texas or on to see his parents.
The light doesn't seem to dawn till Jack mentions Mexico and then it's as if something clicks in Ennis's mind. Even then he doesn't apparently go back to the earlier conversation and wonder about the reference to the ranch-foreman's wife.
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Given Ennis's nature, I should think it entirely possible that it never occurred to him that Jack might look elsewhere. Ennis isn't imaginative or intuitive, doesn't look elsewhere himself and as Jack says in their last scene together appears to be able to manage on " a few high-altitude f**ks a year". when Jack drives off after the post-divorce meeting, Ennis presumably thinks he's either going back to Texas or on to see his parents.
The light doesn't seem to dawn till Jack mentions Mexico and then it's as if something clicks in Ennis's mind. Even then he doesn't apparently go back to the earlier conversation and wonder about the reference to the ranch-foreman's wife.
I had felt the same way, but I was surprised by the intense jealousy on Ennis's part that seemed to underlie his reaction during their last quarrel. In fact, I had posted similar thoughts in the old thread about what I thought to be Ennis's possessive love for Jack. As you had hinted in the above post, I think Ennis understood the hint about Mexico but seemed to have internalized everything well up until that last quarrel...
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Given Ennis's nature, I should think it entirely possible that it never occurred to him that Jack might look elsewhere. Ennis isn't imaginative or intuitive, doesn't look elsewhere himself and as Jack says in their last scene together appears to be able to manage on " a few high-altitude f**ks a year". when Jack drives off after the post-divorce meeting, Ennis presumably thinks he's either going back to Texas or on to see his parents.
The light doesn't seem to dawn till Jack mentions Mexico and then it's as if something clicks in Ennis's mind. Even then he doesn't apparently go back to the earlier conversation and wonder about the reference to the ranch-foreman's wife.
I had felt the same way, but I was surprised by the intense jealousy on Ennis's part that seemed to underlie his reaction during their last quarrel. In fact, I had posted similar thoughts in the old thread about what I thought to be Ennis's possessive love for Jack. As you had hinted in the above post, I think Ennis understood the hint about Mexico but seemed to have internalized everything well up until that last quarrel...
I've got to go along with the both of you. But it was only with Jack, Ennis seems to be able to express himself at all, "he even talks".
Yes, I also agree Ennis had a possessive love for Jack, that "short leash" Jack was straining on. That's what so scary, Ennis wants Jack totally for himself, on his own very limited terms, but threatens Jack if he ever went else where. How "schizoid" is that? If he ever knew about Randall he would have never been able to handle it, and I don't see him just walking away.
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Then you're raising the question of the nature of Ennis's love if, as you say, it's possessive and selfish. And that's a whole different topic.
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I've got to go along with the both of you. But it was only with Jack, Ennis seems to be able to express himself at all, "he even talks".
Yes, I also agree Ennis had a possessive love for Jack, that "short leash" Jack was straining on. That's what so scary, Ennis wants Jack totally for himself, on his own very limited terms, but threatens Jack if he ever went else where. How "schizoid" is that? If he ever knew about Randall he would have never been able to handle it, and I don't see him just walking away.
OT: manhattangirl, did you read the old thread about Ennis's possesive love for Jack. I would to hear your opinion on a number of points raised in that thread. :)
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Then you're raising the question of the nature of Ennis's love if, as you say, it's possessive and selfish. And that's a whole different topic.
I don't know if I would call it selfish. He certainly minded sharing Jack with any other man. But Ennis was faithful, so he simply expected that Jack would do the same. Too bad it wasn't the same for Jack: "I'm not like you..." :\'(
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"Expected" seeme to me to imply more analytical examination of their relationship than Ennis was capable of. I think he just went on going on, full of terrors but unable to give Jack up - I think the idea that there was someone else in Jack's life would have been too much for him - his reaction to the idea of Mexico was IMO just blind rage.
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"Expected" seeme to me to imply more analytical examination of their relationship than Ennis was capable of. I think he just went on going on, full of terrors but unable to give Jack up - I think the idea that there was someone else in Jack's life would have been too much for him - his reaction to the idea of Mexico was IMO just blind rage.
This is probably true. He followed whatever his confusion would allow, no? He certainly seemed to believe in monogamy of a certain type. Jack was a bit more open, it seems. IT is hard to make an analogy with current ideas of homosexual and heterosexual relationships...
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As LJN said, Ennis was pretty upset about Mexico, and that was anonymous encounters. Everytime I think about this scene, I think about a little quote that I read by Diana Ossana in which she said
Diana Ossana: Cassie somewhat exemplifies Ennis’s continual denial of his emotional makeup, and his attempts to have what he believed was a “normal” relationship with a woman. After his and Jack’s final confrontation about Mexico, Ennis realizes that it is Jack he truly loves, and he simply cannot continue in his attempts at a relationship with Cassie, thus her confronting him in the diner about his whereabouts and her frustrations and painful realization that she’s not “the one.”
That always leads me to think about what could have happened if they had gotten to have their schedule November meeting. In the case of Jack telling Ennis about Randall, anger is the first thing I think of. He was angry about Mexico he would have been ten times more angry about Randall, but I do believe it would have woken him up a bit, just like the confrontation about Mexico did. I also do not think Ennis would have hopping in his truck and gone racing down to Mexico, though. Another postcard? Maybe. Not sure what he'd write on it though. Jack may not even take it seriously anyway since he was already burned by the divorce postcard.
To be honest, it is anyone's guess what Ennis would have done in this situation. For example: I like to believe that had they met up in November they would have had a long talk and resolved some things, but I can't be sure given Ennis's constant resistance. If you add Randall into the mix I think Ennis would have moved a little quicker to resolve things, but not after being angry for a good while.
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Being with Alma and Cassie was not "normal" for Ennis, it never was. Ennis as he is with Jack, is the most normal he'd ever been in his life, and could ever hope to be. Monogamy, yes, why shouldn't he expected that from Jack. Understanding that this is not a realistic idea, given Jack's nature, and compounded by the suffocating rules set down by Ennis, faithfulness was indeed expected.
Jack was his, and Jack will always be his. What Jack couldn't understand was Ennis resistance. If Jack would have understood it and dealt with Ennis's fears head on, he may have help Ennis to understand that it would be alright, just trust him Ennis and Jack were not introspective men, the complexities of their relationship was just too much to take in, the here and now was all they could see.
Ennis with ease could discuss their experience with the women in their lives, but to discuss other men, was a territory unimaginable, an undiscovered country so to speak. Why this envelop wasn't pushed a little more in this story and not just limiting it to 'Mexico', well that's why we're discussing the what ifs now.
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Assuming that Ennis and Jack did meet in November, I still wonder whether Jack would have told Ennis everything. Sometimes, I think the easier way out for Jack was not to show hup in November. Somehow, I have this feeling that if he did show up, he wouldn't have told Ennis -- more because he didn't like to hurt him, rather than being afraid of what he might do.
I do think that Ennis was more "himself" when with Jack. Was part of that the element of possessivness? Again, it is hard top think what Ennis would have done if they met in November and Ennis found out about Randall. The natural reaction for Ennis would have been to lash out -- the same way he lashed out in the fight scene at the end of their stay on BBM back in 63. Ennis was certainly capabale of making good his threat to Jack. But I suspect that if Jack told him, Ennis would have been devastated.
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To me, the bigger issue for Ennis if he found out about Randall would be having to face the idea that Jack might actually 'be queer'. Which would point to the unbearable possibility that he was too. I always thought that was part of what upset him about Mexico. I think he was intensely jealous, deeply hurt that Jack 'cheated' on him, but at the same time, unable to admit, even to himself that he felt this way because he loved Jack.
As usual, he is a mass of contradictions. Living inside of Ennis must have been a very difficult experience.
What would he have done about it? Wow, mighty good question. My guess is that his first instinct would be to run from it, not try to win Jack back. He wasn't ready at that time to face his conflicts. I think the breakdown during the final confrontation was the first sign of the protective shell cracking. To even admit that he felt so strongly and let Jack see him so vulnerable was a huge departure for him. I think anything after that might have had some possibility but until then he was still pretty tightly wound.
Hmm, I don't know...
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I tend to agree. Even than, Mexico had overtones that Ennis would not want to have associated with Jack, and certainly with himself. No-one has mentioned either the dangers inherent in such places. i wonder how much Ennis knew about them?
Ennis can clearly see himself as " not queer" because he seems to classify himself as a one-off. But if it became obvious that Jack had been connected with other men, and had at least one in his life who had openly encouraged and invited him to share something he had possible considered very seriously, then Ennis couldn't avoided the conclusion that Jack was an acknowledged practising gay. And what would that make him if he committed to Jack?
Part of me thinks that after the Mexico trip and the possible intervention of Randall, there's no way Jack could have gone back and settled with Ennis even if Ennis had come round to doing so. The romantic part says that if they loved each other, they would settle down together and accept each other, but Ennis never really had done so in the past and I don't know whether he would in the future.
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IMHO:
This is when the possessiveness is kicked right to the surface. Being "queer" and not being a "queer" is not important at this moment. Jack is giving away what belonged to Ennis. Jack belonged to him. Jack was his. He would kill him if ever found out about all the things he didn't know about. Ennis was not conflicted at this moment, and he ain't foolin.
Jack indeed knew when to draw back from Ennis, he knew of his violence. Ennis function on pure emotion and not much thought. Jack took a big chance on telling him about Mexico. But he had no choice, Ennis wasn't giving in on much.
To tell him of Randall would result I think, two ways, Ennis would have beaten him to death, or got on his knees and begged him not to go back to Randall. Would Ennis go off with Jack, heck no, he wouldn't, but there was no way he would give Jack up. (Crazy isn't it?).
Ennis wasn't a "Dr. Phil" let explore our feelings kind of guy. We seen so many time in this story how he internalized things until it was to much for him to bare.
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I do think that Jack had measured Ennis exactly -- making sure that thwe cup would not overflow. Well, at least he did this up intil the last meeting, and that happened because Jack's cup was the one that overflowed. At that point, he probably no longer cared how Ennis would have reacted. He wanted Ennis's cup to overflow. Like a dam, such a thing would relieve the pressure. Perhaps Jack realized that now he had to push Ennis, if things were not to burst.
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Indeed Jack wanted to push Ennis and when he did he discovered that Ennis was more fragile that at first beleif. As far as Randall goes thank goodness he had the good sense to keep that card up his sleeve while he forced Ennis's hand. Ennis was who he really loved and wanted and was'nt going to risk loosing this game after all those years by spilling his guts about Randall. Although Randall was an ace up Jack's sleeve, We are not privy to the deepness of Randall's commitment either, but we do know Ennis's track record. He would expect monogamy from anyone he was seriously involved with. Jack was frustrated and mad already when Ennis decided to "up the anty *with his little remark about "boys like you" which I don't think Jack appreciated that much. At that point, I do'nt think he gave a damn what Ennis thought the way he answered it ,coupled with Ennis changing the date of the next meeting, Jack had heard enough. He finally let Ennis have it with both barrels...And that was enough at the moment and Ennis broke down.Telling him about Randall would have been to painful to bear and just too cold. . Ennis is already desperate enough after being hit with Mexico. Remember, Ennis sacrificed as well, loosing his marriage, quit jobs, separated from his girls etc, to be with Jack those 20 years and in his mind safe too. So his reaction IMO would be hurt pain ,desperation ,and fear...and intense out of control anger.Telling him about Randall would have destroyed Ennis and Jack would not want that. He loved him to much to do so. My thoughts.
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Yes, Ennis's reaction would truly depend on how deep the commitment was between Jack and Randall. I think that -- in spite of his threat to Jack in the last meeting -- Ennis would not have minded too much if the relationship between Jack and Randall proved superficial. There is some indication that the relationship was not shallow, IMO. Nonetheless, I do think finding all this out later -- after Jack had died -- finally did reveal to Ennis the depth of jack's love. It is telling that Ennis's reaction would have been so measured and restrained with Jack gone -- I am sure it would not have been so if Jack were still alive...
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I think it was an unconcious act on Jack's part confessing the Mexican business and putting Ennis's love to the test. Needless to say Ennis did not take it well, but I agree with an earlier point that Jack was daring Ennis.forcing his hand. Using Randall to test Ennis's love further would have been downright dangerous knowing Ennis's state of mind at the time.( though I think Jack could have held his own against Ennis in a knockdown dragout) but this was not his desire, but this thing would have gotten alot uglier if Randall and Ennis came face to face at some point. He had already threatened Jack's life about "all them things" he did'nt know so I hate to think about what he 'd have tried to do to Randall. It would not be a pretty picture....Jack knew better than to tell.
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What made Ennis take things in a relatively -- and surprisingly -- clam manner when he did finally hear from John Twist about Jack's plans to move in with another man? I suspect the shock of Jack's death had put things into better perspective with Ennis. This seems to suggest that shocking Ennis out of the status quo maight have worked.
Any thoughts?
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I think that at this point Ennis had come to appreciate what he had with Jack now that he was gone. He also probably realized his responsibility and the part he played in Jack seeking out another potentially serious relationship with another man. I feel his suprising calm was out of respect for that. I still maintain that Ennis may have come around if Jack had'nt died and was confronted with this information about he and Randall. Jack was gonna settle with one or the other, and after much wracking of the brain and time being of the essence IMO ,this would have been enough to shock Ennis into making those deep ,hard choices. He would now realize that Jack was not going to wait forever for him to commit. Yeah, he would have been very angry and upset and talked a lot of shit and threats just like he did in that last fight but he could'nt stand it. , but eventually he'd have caved and reclaimed Jack as his own. That little "talk" Jack gave him scared the crap out of him. You don't invest 20 years in someone and not see the light. Confronted with this, IMO he would have fought for Jack. Through all his faults and fears he loved him deeply.
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I think that at this point Ennis had come to appreciate what he had with Jack now that he was gone. He also probably realized his responsibility and the part he played in Jack seeking out another potentially serious relationship with another man. I feel his suprising calm was out of respect for that. I still maintain that Ennis may have come around if Jack had'nt died and was confronted with this information about he and Randall. Jack was gonna settle with one or the other, and after much wracking of the brain and time being of the essence IMO ,this would have been enough to shock Ennis into making those deep ,hard choices. He would now realize that Jack was not going to wait forever for him to commit. Yeah, he would have been very angry and upset and talked a lot of shit and threats just like he did in that last fight but he could'nt stand it. , but eventually he'd have caved and reclaimed Jack as his own. That little "talk" Jack gave him scared the crap out of him. You don't invest 20 years in someone and not see the light. Confronted with this, IMO he would have fought for Jack. Through all his faults and fears he loved him deeply.
Somehow, I do feel that Ennis probably would not have made good his threat had he found out about Jack's plans. Perhaps he would have relented. It is hard to read Ennis when it comes to certain things about Jack. "I can't stand it anymore, Jack" seems to indicate that he may have realized that the status quo won't work, and he may have been at a point where he was about to "turn around". But the violence within him is also very real, no? He certainly could have made good his threat. But somehow, I feel that there was a limit to what even Ennis could bear.
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And Jack also has his limits too. If Ennis is smart, he would realize that Randall means that Jack is already in "moving on mode" or at the very least thinking about it and so harming Jack is not an option if his plans include keeping him. It's like "put up or shut up" at this point. Jack was no longer going to settle for the status quo and Ennis was'nt about to share either. He had to make a choice. Hard one since Ennis does'nt handle pressure very well. Look at how he handled Alma at Thanksgiving for merely SAYING bad things about Jack.Randall did'nt know it at the time, but his life was at stake.His violence is very real. How Ennis handled this though could mean the difference between keeping Jack whom he loved, or pushing him further into Randall's arms.
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And Jack also has his limits too. If Ennis is smart, he would realize that Randall means that Jack is already in "moving on mode" or at the very least thinking about it and so harming Jack is not an option if his plans include keeping him. It's like "put up or shut up" at this point. Jack was no longer going to settle for the status quo and Ennis was'nt about to share either. He had to make a choice. Hard one since Ennis does'nt handle pressure very well. Look at how he handled Alma at Thanksgiving for merely SAYING bad things about Jack.Randall did'nt know it at the time, but his life was at stake.His violence is very real. How Ennis handled this though could mean the difference between keeping Jack whom he loved, or pushing him further into Randall's arms.
Yes, I really thought Jack was willing to move on, even if this would mean losing Ennis. Or perhaps Jack had thought all along that by provoking Ennis this way, he would inevitably force his hand into sharing a life. It is hard for me to see Ennis actually doing it. But in the end, he did seem to have realized what he had lost. Would he have chosen otherwise if he were given a second chance? I think so.
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I think by that final scene Jack was so frustrated and angry, confronted yet again by Ennis's intransigence and unable to see why he refused even to try to move on, that saying what he did in a fit of bravado was less premeditated than instinctive. It's as if he's given up the effort to keep his secrets and no longer cares what Ennis knows. Equally he seems no longer to care about Ennis's propensity to erupt into violence - maybe after all the pain he's suffered that wouldn't matter to him. He's also challenging Ennis over Mexico - well, if you treat me like this, what do you expect me to do? But he doesn;t mention Randall, who is real and if Ennis wanted to get-at-able - anyone in Mexico is far away and impossible to find - Randall isn't. Randall's also part of Jack's life in Childress, from which Ennis has always been excluded, and part of what Jack would have left to go back to if it all ended with Ennis.
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After Ennis's threat, it was like Jack said OK you SOB, here it is. Jack was pleading for his life, Ennis's life, "look at what you're doing to us". But did Jack really understand what Ennis sacrificed? And his sacrifice was so much more profound. Ennis gave up his entire life, for the both of them. He may have said it in clumsy way, not eloquently, "It's because of you I'm like this", "I'm no where." He breaks down. Every move Ennis ever made in life, was gear to being with Jack. His fears of what would happen to them both was always a factor, but he lived within the limitations of that, but his love and need for Jack was so over whelming that he couldn't let him go, nor would he.
Jack had it better off, his money gave the confort live a little better on the mountain. better tents, better food, shooting elk for the pleasure of the hunt, and not for survival. Ennis was still carry his belongings in sacks. Ennis was boarding the horses, but how much do you think that cost him, a lot, or was he still bartering so he can keep the horses, so they can ride together. Was he living in a nice house, like Jack, or a rundown shack? He made connections with no one, his whole being belonged to Jack.
With all of this, Jack is seeing Randall on the side. If Jack just had a glimpse of Ennis's life would he have understood just how much this man loved him?
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I think by that final scene Jack was so frustrated and angry, confronted yet again by Ennis's intransigence and unable to see why he refused even to try to move on, that saying what he did in a fit of bravado was less premeditated than instinctive. It's as if he's given up the effort to keep his secrets and no longer cares what Ennis knows. Equally he seems no longer to care about Ennis's propensity to erupt into violence - maybe after all the pain he's suffered that wouldn't matter to him. He's also challenging Ennis over Mexico - well, if you treat me like this, what do you expect me to do? But he doesn;t mention Randall, who is real and if Ennis wanted to get-at-able - anyone in Mexico is far away and impossible to find - Randall isn't. Randall's also part of Jack's life in Childress, from which Ennis has always been excluded, and part of what Jack would have left to go back to if it all ended with Ennis.
Challenging Ennis about Mexico was a sure sign that Jack had had it. It also shows that he was no longer willing to back down on the matter of own needs and desires. This certainly indicates to me that that confrontation with Ennis was no longer forbidden ground. Perhaps this thing with Randall was primarily a means to this end.
Had Jack stayed with Randall in Mexicao, I would be more inclined to say that Jack was not really using this as a means of pushing Ennis against the wall. But to bring him to LF? So close to Ennis. Jack must have planned this act as a ditrect challenge, no?
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After Ennis's threat, it was like Jack said OK you SOB, here it is. Jack was pleading for his life, Ennis's life, "look at what you're doing to us". But did Jack really understand what Ennis sacrificed? And his sacrifice was so much more profound. Ennis gave up his entire life, for the both of them. He may have said it in clumsy way, not eloquently, "It's because of you I'm like this", "I'm no where." He breaks down. Every move Ennis ever made in life, was gear to being with Jack. His fears of what would happen to them both was always a factor, but he lived within the limitations of that, but his love and need for Jack was so over whelming that he couldn't let him go, nor would he.
Jack had it better off, his money gave the confort live a little better on the mountain. better tents, better food, shooting elk for the pleasure of the hunt, and not for survival. Ennis was still carry his belongings in sacks. Ennis was boarding the horses, but how much do you think that cost him, a lot, or was he still bartering so he can keep the horses, so they can ride together. Was he living in a nice house, like Jack, or a rundown shack? He made connections with no one, his whole being belonged to Jack.
With all of this, Jack is seeing Randall on the side. If Jack just had a glimpse of Ennis's life would he have understood just how much this man loved him?
I remain unsure if Jack really knew how much Ennis lost because of his relationship with Jack. But I do think that Jack himself didn't reamin unaffected by all this. He also lost a great deal -- but more on the emotional level, rather than on the material end.
Sure, Jack was well-off compared to Ennis. But I think Ennis pretty much denied himself the emotional attrition that so visibly affected Jack. Why? Because with Ennis, it was his choice to keep tight control over the relationship. He pretty much called the shots. Jack was helpless in this regard. The short leash took its emotional toll. In this regard, perhaps Jack suffered more than Ennis -- Jack was willing to risk all for that something that he did not control.
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But don't you see that what Ennis's does, He is not look too deeply within himself type of guy, It wasn't until Jack's death when he saw the shirts did he understand, it was in his hands, he could hold it. Like some men I know, that work on the premise, look at what I'm doing doesn't that show you I love you. I think that what was happening to Ennis. It's sad in it own way. I don't think that was much Ennis's fault, this was how he was geared, this is what I think Jack couldn't understand.
When he shot the elk, when told the little guy, soup instead of beans, when he offered to sleep with sheep, and Jack stay in camp. All these things were to show Jack he cared. And resistance to a life together, was protection for both himself, and the only person he really loved. Don't you think that this a total misunderstanding on both their parts.
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But don't you see that what Ennis's does, He is not look too deeply within himself type of guy, It wasn't until Jack's death when he saw the shirts did he understand, it was in his hands, he could hold it. Like some men I know, that work on the premise, look at what I'm doing doesn't that show you I love you. I think that what was happening to Ennis. It's sad in it own way. I don't think that was much Ennis's fault, this was how he was geared, this is what I think Jack couldn't understand.
When he shot the elk, when told the little guy, soup instead of beans, when he offered to sleep with sheep, and Jack stay in camp. All these things were to show Jack he cared. And resistance to a life together, was protection for both himself, and the only person he really loved. Don't you think that this a total misunderstanding on both their parts.
Hello manhattangirl.
I do suspect that Jack did understand, but simply just had it in the end. After all, Jack was also not an introspective individual -- he took things as they came. And I did think he appreciated Ennis's gestures and his love.
But Jack did feel things, whereas Ennis refused to trust in his feelings. The disconnect was on the emotional level, and not on an intellectual one. Jack felt that they could make it work together, whereas Ennis wouldn't listen to how he felt inside. It was this that Jack sought to tear down, I think, when he started planning to move on. For Ennis to be confronted with the loss of Jack could have moved him to finally connect with his heart, rather than with his fear. And I think Jack's death did precisely that.
Jack I think did want Ennis to finally come to grips with himself and react. Even in death, I think Jack would have wanted that.
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Sometimes in the end you're just a prisoner of what genetics and experience have made you; however much you'd like to be differnet, you're controlled by the past and your own make-up. "I am a part of all that I have met," so to speak.Ennis can't break away from that; equally Jack can;t break away from the very different character his make-up and life have made him. And neither comes from a highly-vervbalizing culture - talking, or shouting, is often what you resort to when all else fails. When Ennis says he's spoken more to Jack than he would do in a year, that's no doubt true - this is a society where people don't talk things out or through. If Jack had felt able to express the emotional and sexual deprivation Ennis caused him, and Ennis had been able to explain what he felt he'd sacrificed in material and occupational terms,they might have had a serious but non-aggressive discussion and learned to understand each other better.
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Sometimes in the end you're just a prisoner of what genetics and experience have made you; however much you'd like to be differnet, you're controlled by the past and your own make-up. "I am a part of all that I have met," so to speak.Ennis can't break away from that; equally Jack can;t break away from the very different character his make-up and life have made him. And neither comes from a highly-vervbalizing culture - talking, or shouting, is often what you resort to when all else fails. When Ennis says he's spoken more to Jack than he would do in a year, that's no doubt true - this is a society where people don't talk things out or through. If Jack had felt able to express the emotional and sexual deprivation Ennis caused him, and Ennis had been able to explain what he felt he'd sacrificed in material and occupational terms,they might have had a serious but non-aggressive discussion and learned to understand each other better.
I totally agree but:
In the final confrontation scene didn't Jack do just that, he eloquently pleaded his case, things unsaid finally brought up. Ennis facing a wrath from his lover of 20 years, telling him "what you're giving me in not enough". Ennis saying to him, "but look at all I lost". Randall stage left, August moved to November, Jack wishing for a way to loosen Ennis's grip.
Was Jack really strong enough to let Ennis go?
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Was Jack really strong enough to let Ennis go?
manhattangirl, good question. I would like to think not. After all, he did try in the 4 years before the reunion.
A bit OT, but this reminds me of Houseman's poem:
Because I liked you better
Than suits a man to say,
It irked you, and I promised
To throw the thought away.
To put the world between us
We parted, stiff and dry;
"Good-bye," said you, "forget me."
"I will, no fear," said I.
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Beautiful and appropriate poem. This question prompts an interesting scenario in my mind. Say for instance Jack did'nt die and just for instance decided that Ennis was'nt going to come around and moved on with (EEEK) with Randall instead , leaving Ennis . &*& Either way , he'd be gone forever from Ennis's life. We see Ennis's reaction to Jack's death . Utter devastation....and obvliously an " If I could do it all over again" look written on his face. My question is: Would the loss in either of these cases make a difference in how Ennis would react or respond to a 2nd chance with Jack? In other words ,would Enns's sense of loss be equal? Propel him into making the same decision ? Or is it that as long as Jack is alive somewhere in the world , Ennis would always believe he could get Jack back any time he wanted? ? ? Is Ennis strong enough to let Jack's love go if Jack lived? Seek him out months or ...even years later? Was Jack strong enough to let him go? Really don't know , but major changes in the relationship would most definitly occur one way or the other. Lots more questions and neverending wonder. That is this film. Amazing! my 2 cents.
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Because I liked you better
Than suits a man to say,
It irked you, and I promised
To throw the thought away.
To put the world between us
We parted, stiff and dry;
"Good-bye," said you, "forget me."
"I will, no fear," said I.
I'm going to start crying in a minute.
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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Beautiful and appropriate poem. This question prompts an interesting scenario in my mind. Say for instance Jack did'nt die and just for instance decided that Ennis was'nt going to come around and moved on with (EEEK) with Randall instead , leaving Ennis . &*& Either way , he'd be gone forever from Ennis's life. We see Ennis's reaction to Jack's death . Utter devastation....and obvliously an " If I could do it all over again" look written on his face. My question is: Would the loss in either of these cases make a difference in how Ennis would react or respond to a 2nd chance with Jack? In other words ,would Enns's sense of loss be equal? Propel him into making the same decision ? Or is it that as long as Jack is alive somewhere in the world , Ennis would always believe he could get Jack back any time he wanted? ? ? Is Ennis strong enough to let Jack's love go if Jack lived? Seek him out months or ...even years later? Was Jack strong enough to let him go? Really don't know , but major changes in the relationship would most definitly occur one way or the other. Lots more questions and neverending wonder. That is this film. Amazing! my 2 cents.
Although the writers may have intended Jack's moving on to be final, I still think that possibilities remained open so long as both of them lived. Had Jack lived, it is hard for me to think that he would have been gone forever. Proximity is part of the reason. Jack was moving closer rather than further. And I don't think Ennis would have let go that easily. After all, he probably sent the postcard reminding Jack about November when he heard nothing from him.
So long as both of them lived, there was a chance that they would again be together. I think both of them must have realized that. It was probably part of the reason why Jack persisted for nearly 20 years.
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The other thing, about which I know nothing so this is really a question, is that things were changing in society, had changed by the eighties. Would it still have been as dangerous and unusual for Jack and Ennis to buy a ranch together? Maybe if ennis saw Randall as a real threat and Jack pointed out other possibilities for himself and Ennis, Ennis might have taken the plunge.
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The other thing, about which I know nothing so this is really a question, is that things were changing in society, had changed by the eighties. Would it still have been as dangerous and unusual for Jack and Ennis to buy a ranch together? Maybe if ennis saw Randall as a real threat and Jack pointed out other possibilities for himself and Ennis, Ennis might have taken the plunge.
In places like Wyoming, it probably would have been dangerous. I do think Ennis's fears were not totally imaginary. But I still think he should have taken the risk. There are worse things than dying.
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Personally I think after that last meeting both Jack and Ennis had very hard choices to make. Ennis would be required go against his "set in stone" philosophy to not keep "standing it" and start fixing it somehow , to be vulnerable ,putting his fears aside and weighing what he and Jack have against them. Jack on the other hand would have to weigh his own options , (Randall) ... and whatever they could offer each other. other than the physical aspect ( and assumming Randall was even willing, and serious about settling down somewhere with Jack.. we don't really know,) against the hope that Ennis can really let go of his fears but, could he accept that there is no guarantee that Ennis could really do it. Could Jack trust Ennis's will in the kind of life he wanted? Stuck between a rock and a hard place ,yet past his limit with the status quo ,I think that Jack needed and wanted , +deserved a full life after giving Ennis a 20 year grace period, but he'd be caught between a man he did'nt really love ,..but could give him the stability he craved ,..and the one he truly loved but who was maybe unable to fully commit to him. Which brings us back to the same question of can either one let go and move on without the other? IMO there would have to be a compromise on both their parts ,work with each other, but I know neither are "touchy,feely" communicators. What that plan would be I don't know. Otherwise neither could ever be happy and satisfied with their choices long term . Sadly Jack's death eliminated any hope for a sweet life for either of them :\'( :\'(
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What really bothers me is that "boggy man in the night" side of Ennis that really drives me crazy. OK, we discuss the fears of Ennis, but it was a phobia. Ennis was tough, a fighter. Jack wasn't, but Jack was willing to tread dangerous territory, that Ennis wasn't. Jack was the stronger one. Jack found his courage, he evolved like his appearance. That's a threat in it self to see your lover slowly moving on, moving away from you. Ennis must have been desperate, just trying to hold on to him.
Jack played his cards close to the vest. He had a whole life aside from Ennis that he went back to, if Randall was part of it, so be it. Ennis was still in '63, declaring "I'm not queer", and would remain there, Jack wasn't he refuse to be, he got off that mountain.
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One thing Jack learned while bull riding was you will get thrown off sometimes , but you don't stay down. you get up, dust off and get back on again and again. This what he did....and ride till those 8 seconds make you a winner, There was a payoff in the end in response to the effort, but with Ennis ,... as in his reply to Jack's rodeo efforts " what's the point ridin a peice of stock for 8 secs. ?" Just coul'nt see that the relationship must move to the next level. Jack was determined not to stay a loser, while riding bulls or in real life , but I totally agree with you that Ennis can drive a person crazy. ( he makes me yell at the TV screen) , but I still so love this character. He's SO complicated it's hard to know exactly what he's thinking. His mind becomes an analyzing machine. Nothing is simple for him when it comes to Jack and their love affair, Each element has it's own little compartment in his mind and he must analyze each and every one of them. Jack sees what he wants and simply goes after it and eventually gets it most of the time.... Until he met Ennis. He is one stubborn peice of work. His fears or phobic tendencies proved a major challenge for Jack. I very much admire Jacj's patience and I also understand Ennis's side too, but every one has their limits. Jack finally reached his. Randall was simply an alternative to Ennis for Jack. A small sign of hope for himself just in case....well you know.My thoughts.
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The analogy with the rodeo and Jack's relationship with Ennis is so vert apt, no?
Jack was riding out the relationship for most of the almost 20 years. But the ride can also symbolize Jack's yearning for a life with someone. Would his moving on to Randal signify a new twist to the ride, or does it in fact signify that the ride was over?
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Jack got thrown off many times by Ennis and it hurt. yet he continued to try to reach that 8 second mark, but after 20 years he began to realize that maybe there would be no payoff for all his efforts. This "bull" (Ennis) proved too much of a challenge and Jack's hope that he could win began to wane. Randall did sigify a new twist to the riding. A whole new different rodeo for Jack. Certainly one who would at least not buck him so hard., and one whom Jack could finally receive a " payoff " of hope for the efforts he put forward although that "payoff" would not be as satisfying in the matters of Jack's heart. There was a method to Ennis's madness and Jack saw it. I think he would always continue to want that tougher challenge and wonder how he could have broken that stubborn will and ride free WITH Ennis , not against each other, for that is where his heart belonged.I love these analogies as Jack's occupations put forth. He was also a salesman but don't get me started! ;) :*( My thoughts.
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Jack got thrown off many times by Ennis and it hurt. yet he continued to try to reach that 8 second mark, but after 20 years he began to realize that maybe there would be no payoff for all his efforts. This "bull" (Ennis) proved too much of a challenge and Jack's hope that he could win began to wane. Randall did sigify a new twist to the riding. A whole new different rodeo for Jack. Certainly one who would at least not buck him so hard., and one whom Jack could finally receive a " payoff " of hope for the efforts he put forward although that "payoff" would not be as satisfying in the matters of Jack's heart. There was a method to Ennis's madness and Jack saw it. I think he would always continue to want that tougher challenge and wonder how he could have broken that stubborn will and ride free WITH Ennis , not against each other, for that is where his heart belonged.I love these analogies as Jack's occupations put forth. He was also a salesman but don't get me started! ;) :*( My thoughts.
aintfoolin, so you did think that this signified the end of Jack's "ride" with Ennis, and not just a ploy to finally rein in the "bull"?
I would certainly want to hear your ideas about Jack being a salesman and how that may signify something about his relationship with Ennis and Randall. :)
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When Jack eventually realized he couldn't make it as a bull-rider despite having limited success, he gave up and apparently never thought of it again. It allowed him to meet Lureen and that;s what started him i=on the salesman career. His face ( and maybe his appeal as a rodeo winner) was what attracted Lureen, but just as he didn;t make a success of bull-riding, he didn;t make a siuccess of his marriage either. But apparently he was a good salesman - i know about Lureen's sotto voce "the only one, in fact" but I don't see LD keeping Jack on if he was no good.
But the two things are so differnt - bull-riding is all about strength and determination whereas being a salesman is all about selling yourself and with that the product. To most people it suggests pushiness and insincerity - so did Jack have those qualities?
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When Jack eventually realized he couldn't make it as a bull-rider despite having limited success, he gave up and apparently never thought of it again. It allowed him to meet Lureen and that;s what started him i=on the salesman career. His face ( and maybe his appeal as a rodeo winner) was what attracted Lureen, but just as he didn;t make a success of bull-riding, he didn;t make a siuccess of his marriage either. But apparently he was a good salesman - i know about Lureen's sotto voce "the only one, in fact" but I don't see LD keeping Jack on if he was no good.
But the two things are so differnt - bull-riding is all about strength and determination whereas being a salesman is all about selling yourself and with that the product. To most people it suggests pushiness and insincerity - so did Jack have those qualities?
I think that they don't really reflect Jack as a person. What it did reflect was that Jack was willing to compromise and move on, leaving behind something for another in pursuit of his dream. I think this was what he wanted Ennis to realize about him -- that he would move on even if he didn't want to. This is in contradistinction to Ennis's attitude of unchanging fidelity to his view of himself and the world. That is why I tend to think that Ennis would not have reacted well to Jack's plans, since it was something unthinkable as far as he was concerned.
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WW ,I am speaking in context of how Jack used these same qualities he had in both his occupations (as analogys at times), toward success. ,and interwoved them into his real life and relationship with Ennis. Yes, Jack was a strong minded person. He was a determined person also . Jack did not give up easily if he saw something he really wanted. He wanted Ennis . He made sure that he found out everything he could about him inside and out in his own way. Then fell in love with what he saw. It took those two qualites, strength and determination ( and some patience) to allow Ennis to fall deeply in love with him too. Goodness knows he got thrown off track several times. got hurt, had his feelins stomped into the ground and rejected, but he never gave up that someday ,he will win big and live with Ennis together on their own ranch. As for his salesmanship qualities?,I ask you, What tougher customer could Jack find than Ennis Del Mar? He was a stubborn peice of work. Set in his ways, hard to read, hard to convince and complicated to the max. But Ennis had a wounded soul. Jack used his best pitch . Armed with the ability to match the right product to his toughest customer ,he got Ennis to buy what he was selling, he used his wonderful charm, his grace, his freindship, his trust , knew when to give space, honesty and even his funny goofiness ( got Ennis to laugh with that wild rodeo impression) but most of all his love, Ennis fell so deep that his whole real world was changed . Jack himself WAS the product. He was Lureen;s best salesman in business and he used those same charming qualties to snare Ennis. He sold HIMSELF to Ennis No pretense, no insincerity or pushiness to be found. and Ennis definitly bought in. He fell ... hook, line, and sinker. I loved em. My thoughts.
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You may ask what all this has to do with he and Randall . Jack had not the history nor the experience with Randall that he had with Ennis. In this case, it was Randall soliciting Jack. He must have seen something he liked obviously.. But whatever it was, Jack did'nt have to do any convincing , I think it was simlpy Randall being at the right place at the right time with a very vulnerable Jack. He just lucked out..IMHO
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Ennis possessiveness of his love for Jack, Jack straining against it, and wanting it at the same time would have locked them in this situation for the rest of their lives. Brokeback was all they had, Jack knew it, and that's was what he feared and what he fought against. Randall could take him away from this.
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You may ask what all this has to do with he and Randall . Jack had not the history nor the experience with Randall that he had with Ennis. In this case, it was Randall soliciting Jack. He must have seen something he liked obviously.. But whatever it was, Jack did'nt have to do any convincing , I think it was simlpy Randall being at the right place at the right time with a very vulnerable Jack. He just lucked out..IMHO
If Ennis knew about Randall, could he really have felt threatened then? After all, all that had passed between him and Jack could not have been for nought...
I think there was an inherent insecurity at the heart of Ennis's love: an insecurity based on the fact that he was never really loved for a great part of his growing up (with his parents dead and his brother and sister preoccupied with other things). When Jack came into his life, he probably felt for the first time in a long while the joy of being truly loved, and he was instinctively jealous and possessive of it.
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Please take a hard look at what's been said. Now remember Jack and Ennis, who is the vulnerable one this time? And remember what happened when your needs outweights the reality. Who needs to be truly loved and secure? Who is there to open another world for them?
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Your correct . How far could Jack push it and still remain within the boundaries of Ennis's forgivness? He knew good and well that Randall was out of bounds as far as Ennis was concerned, and any other body who Jack dared to find comfort with. This was Ennis's stubborn possessiveness at play. Jack had fear too. of loosing Ennis completely if Ennis ever found out that he had stepped over the line. ( the short leash) but he needed sexual healing from someone ,...and more than Ennis was able to provide him. Randall filled that void for Jack so ...he lied about it. Brokeback was only the beginning, it was'nt meant to be all there was to this thing for Jack. He was ready to move on to the next phase of their love. A partnership. A real life together. But Ennis ..oh that Ennis Del Mar,..was still on that mountain , and as long as he was there, he was safe and free. Jack was safe and free too.. take no chances. Isolated from the world with only Jack. was'nt willing to step out of that real life fantasy and move alongside Jack neck and neck, shoulder to shoulder to the next highest level. Maybe Jack thought Randall could instead. Jack wanted the one he really loved there, fighting whatever battles they faced together with him. Yes , Ennis did sacrifice alot to be with Jack but in a way it was like prolonging the inevidible showdown which eventually came anyway by remaining in this shell. He was such a complicated individual. I loved this character of Ennis but did not like the position he forced sweet Jack into. They both deserved better. No blame, but just my opinion.
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Please take a hard look at what's been said. Now remember Jack and Ennis, who is the vulnerable one this time? And remember what happened when your needs outweights the reality. Who needs to be truly loved and secure? Who is there to open another world for them?
Ennis held all the cards, and he could have played them right had he been bolder and less haunted by past traumas and imaginwed fears. So I guess Jack was in a more vulnerable position, in the sense that he had shown his cards and could do nothing but wait, else leave the table and lose.
Would you agree?
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Did Ennis hold all the cards? We're talking "what If", so what if Jack lived, and had a relationship with Randall, even moving back LF, but still continue with Ennis, going to him once or twice a year. Wouldn't the dynamics of power change? Both Randall and Ennis wanting Jack, loving him, and Jack becoming another Ennis, refusing to make decision, wanting a life with Randall, because with him he had that life, understanding and believing Ennis wouldn't change, but still couldn't give him up.
Would Jack become a slave to both men, or would they wait for Jack to make up his mind, what would Ennis give up for him, so he would make that decision?
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Did Ennis hold all the cards? We're talking "what If", so what if Jack lived, and had a relationship with Randall, even moving back LF, but still continue with Ennis, going to him once or twice a year. Wouldn't the dynamics of power change? Both Randall and Ennis wanting Jack, loving him, and Jack becoming another Ennis, refusing to make decision, wanting a life with Randall, because with him he had that life, understanding and believing Ennis wouldn't change, but still couldn't give him up.
Would Jack become a slave to both men, or would they wait for Jack to make up his mind, what would Ennis give up for him, so he would make that decision?
If Jack had gone with Randall and had he kept on seeing Ennis, he would have gained nothing and lost more. It would simply prove to himself that he could not move on, and he would live with his heart and will divided. IT would not have mattered if either he told Ennis or not about Randall. If he did tell Ennis, and Ennis didn't react, that would even be a greater loss of face for Jack, because it would show that he needed Ennis more than Ennis needed him. Had he not told Ennis, he would be at the mercy of his own fears revolving around Ennis ever finding out, and he would thuis have to live a double life. If he told Ennis and Ennis reacted violently, again, Jack would be on the losing end, since he may lose Ennis entirely. The only possibility that Jack would win is that his living with Randall would convince Ennis to change heart and finally agree to a shared life with Jack. So if you weigh the probabilities and possible outcomes, the odds are stacked against Jack, unfortunately.
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What if, hypothetically, Jack moved back to Lightning Flat with Randall and didn't respond to any messages from Ennis? What if he decided that Ennis was never going to change and he was merely hurting himself by keeping on hoping that he would? What if he thought that Randall really cared about him and settled for that?
Would Ennis have done anything then to try to get Jack back?
Or would he accept that Randall had "won" by being prepared to commit and take risks he wouldn't?
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What if, hypothetically, Jack moved back to Lightning Flat with Randall and didn't respond to any messages from Ennis? What if he decided that Ennis was never going to change and he was merely hurting himself by keeping on hoping that he would? What if he thought that Randall really cared about him and settled for that?
Would Ennis have done anything then to try to get Jack back?
Or would he accept that Randall had "won" by being prepared to commit and take risks he wouldn't?
I would think Jack would have come back to Ennis. Jack probably wouldn't have been able to resist a change of heart.
I think the battle would have been far from over in any case...
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Neither man, Jack or Ennis, ever made a hard choice as far their relationship was concerned, the changes in their "other" life happened, like Ennis's divorce, Jack's occasionally trips to Mexico, and his own troubled marriage. But they still found the time, no matter what was going on in their troubled lives to be with each other. The one thing IMO would not change is that Jack would still go to Ennis, even being with Randall. They needed each other, fed off each other, and lived for that week they would be together. The need for each other was way too strong for either of them to stop, no matter what was going on.
That was the one amazing thing about their love, is the way they loved.
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Then you think that Ennis would get over any initial feelings of betrayal if he found out about Randall, no?
I believe that, in spite of his threat, Ennis would still have loved Jack. Likewise, I believe that even with Randall, Jack would not cease to love Ennis.
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Then you think that Ennis would get over any initial feelings of betrayal if he found out about Randall, no?
I believe that, in spite of his threat, Ennis would still have loved Jack. Likewise, I believe that even with Randall, Jack would not cease to love Ennis.
Oh yes, this goes without saying. They loved each other and always will. But Ennis gave no signs throughout their relationship or at any point did he ask Jack to change any thing, promise anything, swear to anything. He would have no choice but to accept it because if he didn't, he knew he would lose all he had with Jack. We all know how much Ennis needed Jack, he gave up so much for him, he couldn't and wouldn't lose him.
I know this could bring moral issues such as faithfulness, commitment, all sorts of questions. But this our what if question, is there really an answer?
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This is very interesting Of course this all speculation If Jack decided to quit Ennis and go with Randall no doubt this would be the ultimate test of Ennis's love. The question was asked: What would Ennis give up to be back with Jack? Unfortunatly It would depend on alot of factors imo. Assuming Ennis finds out about it and I think he would, because Jack would have to have that long dreaded talk with Ennis that he had found someone else. I don't think at that point Jack would try to hide it from Ennis anymore. In the case that Jack is only using being with Randall to get Ennis to commit Jack would be looked upon as a user by both men . Another factor would be How close have randall and Jack become? Jack could possibly love Randall and Ennis at the same time I's possible but I don't see him spending time or sleeping with both at this point. He had talked enough now it was his turn to show Ennis that he means business. Personally, i think before things went to far ( example: Randall moving Jack far away from Ennis , cutting contact, and showering him with so much love and attention. Ennis may quickly feel that his theory of " standing it" not fixing it" with Jack may deserve a second look. Rather than allowing A love to grow between Jack and Randall, I think Ennis pride, jealousy, and the devastating thought that he had lost Jack forever would have Ennis crawling back on his hands and knees, begging Jack to not only take him back but for forgivness, Jack would then hold all the cards. I think he would play them in Ennis's favor but only if he thinks Ennis is serious... He'd make sure he was before he gave up Randall and demand proof of that. Afterall after death Ennis broke down and went to LF , actually left Riverton to see Jack's parents, so he is capable of making serious decisions when he has to. He'd have found Jack again. My opinion.
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Yes, but the salient point is that it WAS only after Jack's death that he went to LF. He was perhaps acknowledging to the Twists that he was the one Jack had loved, but they probably knew that already. There were no possible consequences, besides possibly coming back again to see them as Mr Twist asked him to. Let's face it, Jack's parents were hardly likely to do anything other than keep quiet about the whole thing even after Ennis had been there.
I've got to the point of thinking that it needed Jack to be dead before Ennis would openly acknowledge what he'd felt for him, because that was the only point at which he couldn't be expected to do anything about it.
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Yes, but the salient point is that it WAS only after Jack's death that he went to LF. He was perhaps acknowledging to the Twists that he was the one Jack had loved, but they probably knew that already. There were no possible consequences, besides possibly coming back again to see them as Mr Twist asked him to. Let's face it, Jack's parents were hardly likely to do anything other than keep quiet about the whole thing even after Ennis had been there.
I've got to the point of thinking that it needed Jack to be dead before Ennis would openly acknowledge what he'd felt for him, because that was the only point at which he couldn't be expected to do anything about it.
And this is exactly the point. I could see Jack taking Randall with him to LF and having a life with him. I could see Jack going to Brokeback a few times a years to be with Ennis unwilling or unable to stop. I could see Jack writing a post card to Ennis, "I got my divorce, see you in November", and Ennis waiting for him. I don't see Ennis getting in his pick-up, With "King of the Road" playing on the radio,driving to LF, it just wouldn't happen. The question then becomes would Randall accept Jack's trips to Brokeback without him, would he understand Jack needed this time. Would Ennis understand when Jack leaves him, he is having a life with someone who was willing to do what he feared most. Remember marriage did not stop these men from being with each other. What could be the difference now?
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There is no one answer to our "what if" question, but there are a number of probably scenearios
Somehow, I have this feeling that Jack could possibly try to stop seeing Ennis if Randall did go with him to LF. Would he be able to do this indefinitely? I guess it depends on how much his relationship with Randall develops and whether he attains the satisfaction of a shared life that we was unable to share with Ennis. Persoannly, I feel it is unlikely that he would be able to forget Ennis entirely so quickly, so the scenario of Jack seeing Ennis while living with Randall is a most reasonable temporary scenario. Would Randall have allowed this? Perhaps Jack would try to keep this hidden initially. After all, Jack is not new to leading multiple lives. But I suspect that if Randall's feelings for Jack grow deeper, then it is likely that some sort of confrontation between Randall and Jack about Ennis would become inevitable. Given how much Jack values his dream of a sweet life, I would think that Randall would inevitably win out if ENnis persisted on keeping Jack at a distance. All this is speculation and probabilities. All of this in no way negates the statement that Jack will forever love Ennis.
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All of this in no way negates the statement that Jack will forever love Ennis.
And this point is the underlying factor in our "What If" question. This would not have changed. How would they live, how would they manage their emotions, their needs? Would there be concessions? What small victories, or defeats ? You're right there are so many scenarios. Maybe I just don't want to end here.
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I think Ennis would explode if he found out that Jack has another lover. Perhaps it would wake him up that it's possible to lose Jack to someone else. It would be a nice change for Jack to hold the cards for once.
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I think Ennis would explode if he found out that Jack has another lover. Perhaps it would wake him up that it's possible to lose Jack to someone else. It would be a nice change for Jack to hold the cards for once.
When I try to invision Ennis finding out about Randall, I picture him almost having a heart attack. It think it would almost have killed him (in one way or another) to find out that Jack was with another man.
Poor Ennis. It was all just too much for him to cope with.
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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And this point is the underlying factor in our "What If" question. This would not have changed. How would they live, how would they manage their emotions, their needs? Would there be concessions? What small victories, or defeats ? You're right there are so many scenarios. Maybe I just don't want to end here.
I think that if Ennis persisted, Jack would have probably stopped seeing Ennis. To accomplish this, Jack and Randall may have to leave LF and go out of state. If they continued to live in LF, there was a lways a chance that Ennis would try to see Jack.
Remember what happened when Ennis did not show up the summer after 63? Jack left Wyoming and went to Texas. I am sure part of the reason for this was to try to forget. And Ennis did not try to seek him out, being more passive than Jack in the pursuit of their relationship.
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I think Ennis would explode if he found out that Jack has another lover. Perhaps it would wake him up that it's possible to lose Jack to someone else. It would be a nice change for Jack to hold the cards for once.
Or he would be so angry that he would cut off communication with Jack entirely -- well, at least for a while. Knowing how stubborn Ennis is, it may be a while...
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When I try to invision Ennis finding out about Randall, I picture him almost having a heart attack. It think it would almost have killed him (in one way or another) to find out that Jack was with another man.
Poor Ennis. It was all just too much for him to cope with.
:\'( :\'( :\'(
Knowledge of Jack having trysts with prostitutes was distasteful, but not unbearable for Ennis. But yes, outright confirmation of Jack living with someone else would have rattled Ennis.
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"That was in another country, and besides the wench is dead." A seventeenth-century answer to the accussation"Thous hast committed fornication."
I think this is Ennis's attitude - Mexico is a long way away and these men there have no concrete existence in his mind - remember that Ennis had only traveled " round the coffee-pot looking for the handle" according to him. Mexico might as well have been the moon as far as he was concerned.
Randall, on the other hand, lived in the same place as Jack, might go with him to Lightning Flat; it's even possible that Ennis could see the two of them together. And that's the real world, here and now, and Ennis would be forced to confront it. I think he'd explode in rage and possibly violence - against Randall, of course, not Jack.
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"That was in another country, and besides the wench is dead." A seventeenth-century answer to the accussation"Thous hast committed fornication."
I think this is Ennis's attitude - Mexico is a long way away and these men there have no concrete existence in his mind - remember that Ennis had only traveled " round the coffee-pot looking for the handle" according to him. Mexico might as well have been the moon as far as he was concerned.
Randall, on the other hand, lived in the same place as Jack, might go with him to Lightning Flat; it's even possible that Ennis could see the two of them together. And that's the real world, here and now, and Ennis would be forced to confront it. I think he'd explode in rage and possibly violence - against Randall, of course, not Jack.
I fear that Ennis may forget himself and in anger do Jack harm. He was capable of doing this, as in the fight up on BBM. And of course, there is his threat...
Ennis does seem to be impulsive and it is plausible that he may do something in anger that he would normally consider unthinkable. Seeing Jack together with Randall would be such as case that can bring out the worst in him. This is why I think Jack bringing Randall up to LF (so close to Ennis relative to Mexico) was tantamount to a provocation.
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I assume he would get violent with Randall and perhaps Jack too, but I'm sure Jack, or Randall, could hold his own. Would Ennis be able to stand it? Would he have fought for Jack or would he break down and dump Jack completely? We saw him breaking down already when Jack attacked him with that speech. Would seeing Jack with Randall open up his eyes enough for him to see Jack's dream with himself in it? Although it's a long shot, it's possible, I think.
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I think Ennis had already figured out that there was no ranch foreman's "wife", sometime between the final confrontation and the scene with Cassie in the diner. Ennis might not have been well educated, but he wasn't stupid, he would've re-played that conversation over and over in his head and would've put the pieces together. Jack needed to have sex with men, he went all the way to Mexico for it, why would he risk "getting shot by Lureen or the husband" to have sex with a woman, when it wasn't what he really wanted or needed? (ok, getting shot is probably an exaggeration, but it still would've caused a whole lot of trouble if he'd got found out). And Ennis says "All them things I don't know..." ,plural, implies that he thought there was more to know than just Mexico, and Jack's "...if you don't ever know the rest" suggests he was right.
So I think Ennis worked out that it was the ranch foreman himself that Jack was involved with, but it wasn't until the scene with Cassie that it occurs to him that this guy could actually be a threat. Cassie makes it clear that she loved Ennis, and probably still loves him, but she eventually accepted that he couldn't give her what she needed and decided to cut her losses and move on, with the guy in the diner, who even though she says "he's nice... he even talks" you get the feeling she sees him as second choice to Ennis. Alma did much the same, stayed with Ennis for as long as she could, tried to make it work, but eventually had to admit defeat and moved on to Monroe (ok, arguably Alma "traded up" with Monroe, but I still think she would've preferred it if she could've had that life with Ennis). Ennis knew that he couldn't be what Alma or Cassie wanted him to be, because of Jack, but he couldn't be what Jack wanted him to be either, couldn't give Jack what he needed. Did it cross Ennis's mind then that maybe Jack too would get to the point where he felt he had to cut his losses and settle for second best, now that there was someone else in the frame who might be more than willing to take that second place? If Randall was willing to take the risk involved in having an affair with Jack, chances are he would also be prepared to take the risk of them living together, and after Jack's saying he wished he could quit Ennis, would Jack have turned down the chance to do just that, if Randall offered it to him? (As I've said before, I think the suggestion of Jack and Randall living together could likely have come from Randall, maybe not moving to LF, that would be a bit presumptuous, being Jack's parents' place, but at least the idea of them ranching up together somewhere could have been Randall's)
So I think all these questions going round in Ennis's head, added to the fact that he hadn't had a postcard from Jack about November, aroused an anxiety in Ennis which made him send the postcard to Jack, to remind him that he was still there, that he was looking forward to seeing him, and that if Jack was making plans that didn't involve him, to hold on until November. I think that had they met in November, Ennis would've demanded answers from Jack about Randall, and more than likely lashed out with his fists when Jack confirmed Ennis's suspicions, but Jack would've hit back, physically and verbally, giving Ennis the choice of either losing Jack for good, or finally forgetting about having to stand it, and fixing it once and for all, always and forever. I have to believe that he would've chosen the latter, if only he'd had the chance... :\'(
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Crimsonsky,
No matter how painful your assessment is, it's so true. Jack left too many signals for Ennis not to figure out what was going on with him. With the "I'm not you." statement, Ennis had have figured Jack was not the type to be alone. It also showed, (and please tell me if I'm wrong.) That Ennis no matter what, is the type of man that when he loves someone his heart and body belongs to that person, the thought of being with some one else is not possible, and there are men like this. This idea must have torn at Ennis, but his inability, to move forward stymied any chance to move towards making a commitment to a future of living together with Jack.
I also agree with Crimsonsky, Ennis made the unusual move as to write to Jack to confirm the meeting in November, he must have been desperate at this point. Not knowing his lover was gone from him forever, he must felt something was wrong. Ennis must have felt a new kind of fear.
CrimsonSky I love your post.
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I assume he would get violent with Randall and perhaps Jack too, but I'm sure Jack, or Randall, could hold his own. Would Ennis be able to stand it? Would he have fought for Jack or would he break down and dump Jack completely? We saw him breaking down already when Jack attacked him with that speech. Would seeing Jack with Randall open up his eyes enough for him to see Jack's dream with himself in it? Although it's a long shot, it's possible, I think.
That is the question really. What constitutes "enough is enough" as far as Ennis is concerned? And what would he do when he reaches that breaking point? Could he give up Jack forever? Will he be able to stand it? Jack would not be able to by himself, IMO. But Ennis is a stubborn man. He would rather suffer unspeakable inner torment rather than face up to his fears. In this instance, we ask again: when is enough enough?
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So I think all these questions going round in Ennis's head, added to the fact that he hadn't had a postcard from Jack about November, aroused an anxiety in Ennis which made him send the postcard to Jack, to remind him that he was still there, that he was looking forward to seeing him, and that if Jack was making plans that didn't involve him, to hold on until November. I think that had they met in November, Ennis would've demanded answers from Jack about Randall, and more than likely lashed out with his fists when Jack confirmed Ennis's suspicions, but Jack would've hit back, physically and verbally, giving Ennis the choice of either losing Jack for good, or finally forgetting about having to stand it, and fixing it once and for all, always and forever. I have to believe that he would've chosen the latter, if only he'd had the chance... :\'(
A very insightful post, CrimsonSky. Perhaps if jack lived and had he met Ennis in November, things may have come to a head. So many things unresolved and left unsaid -- that's the tragedy of Jack dying...
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That is the question really. What constitutes "enough is enough" as far as Ennis is concerned? And what would he do when he reaches that breaking point? Could he give up Jack forever? Will he be able to stand it? Jack would not be able to by himself, IMO. But Ennis is a stubborn man. He would rather suffer unspeakable inner torment rather than face up to his fears. In this instance, we ask again: when is enough enough?
My answer was- Yes, it's possible. He did change for his daughter. Although a little, he did budge. No reasons why he couldn't change for Jack.
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But in changing for Alma Jr he was doing something socially acceptable and arguably which might help him be seen as more of a normal member of society instead of an isolated loner. In committing to Jack he would be doing what he'd fought for so long - admitting he was queer - and getting himself into a situation he'd always seen as dangerous, possibly deadly - would he be desperate enough if there was the threat of losing Jack to get over his own fears?
If his love for Jack is so strong that he can;t do witout hom, why has he gone on as he has for so long, specially after the divorce and that meeting when it couldn't have been clearer what Jack wanted ? He was afraid then - look t his reaction to the pickup driving past - so what would have changed later? After that meeting Jack drove off evidently in great emotional turmoil while Ennis just stood there and did nothing to stop him.
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But in changing for Alma Jr he was doing something socially acceptable and arguably which might help him be seen as more of a normal member of society instead of an isolated loner. In committing to Jack he would be doing what he'd fought for so long - admitting he was queer - and getting himself into a situation he'd always seen as dangerous, possibly deadly - would he be desperate enough if there was the threat of losing Jack to get over his own fears?
If his love for Jack is so strong that he can;t do witout hom, why has he gone on as he has for so long, specially after the divorce and that meeting when it couldn't have been clearer what Jack wanted ? He was afraid then - look t his reaction to the pickup driving past - so what would have changed later? After that meeting Jack drove off evidently in great emotional turmoil while Ennis just stood there and did nothing to stop him.
Very good point, but that was when he knew Jack will always come back to him. Perhaps he took Jack for granted, but if he knew Jack will be taken away from him permanently, either by death or by Randall, then maybe, just maybe, he'll think differently. Or perhaps his love for Jack was never that strong which makes this movie less than what we think it is. If that's the case, then the shirts should not have meant anything to him at all.
As for case of changing for Alma Jr., I see him as a queer by make and a loner be design. He's been taught to hate the former and as a result, became the latter. Being alone and denying an aspect of himself are interconnected and they both are a problem for him, not just fighting his own queerness. What I'm trying to say is that he had two main problems here--social problem and queerness. The way I see it is, when he took that first step for Alma Jr, in a way, he was taking a first step for Jack also. Sure, the situation was different, the change itself didn't have to be.
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My answer was- Yes, it's possible. He did change for his daughter. Although a little, he did budge. No reasons why he couldn't change for Jack.
An infinitesial change for Ennis is like moving the world without a pivot.
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If his love for Jack is so strong that he can;t do witout hom, why has he gone on as he has for so long, specially after the divorce and that meeting when it couldn't have been clearer what Jack wanted ? He was afraid then - look t his reaction to the pickup driving past - so what would have changed later? After that meeting Jack drove off evidently in great emotional turmoil while Ennis just stood there and did nothing to stop him.
I think he did realize in the last meeting that he had reached a breaking point. Perhaps that is a signal for change within Ennis...
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For me the battle was always his sexuality, and his fear of it. As far as someone finding out, yeah sure that's always in the background, but it's always been coming out to himself was his problem. And for me his torment is more understandable, and more poignant.
To be a man and to love another man, and being shown as child what could happen to "boys like you". We saw how crippling that could be, and the damage it did. Ennis was damaged before he met Jack. Jack showed him love he never knew, acceptance he never had. And to me that is the rub, he found love, physical and emotional love from a man. The war in his head, and the war of his body responding to Jack. Ennis wanted it, but in the same breathe could turn it all away.
Being so emotionally screwed he couldn't go beyond his own fear of himself. Jack expressed his frustration with Ennis, and the hint of someone else. That's why I think Ennis wrote Jack to confirm the November date, He had have known something change in Jack, Ennis for the first time was desperate, His lover might be with someone else.
Do you think harbouring his fear of himself is more powerful than Jack's love? Ennis would have to do something, he was on the definitely at that breaking point.
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I strongly agree that writing that postcard to Jack about the November meeting was a big step for the emotionally screwed Ennis. Something did stir within him. When he lost Jack for good, he did take a big step to honor Jack's last wish. Would he take the same big step if he know he's about to loose Jack to another man?
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I strongly agree that writing that postcard to Jack about the November meeting was a big step for the emotionally screwed Ennis. Something did stir within him. When he lost Jack for good, he did take a big step to honor Jack's last wish. Would he take the same big step if he know he's about to loose Jack to another man?
losing jack to another man is a big step. perhaps it will jolt ennis out of his dream where everything is perfect as long as he continued to stay in the closet but then he pretty much have an idea when jack mentioned mexico so maybe he wouldn't give up his oppotunity to live a normal life even for jack? it breaks my heart to see him suffer alone. if only he could let jack share his burden, things could have been different....
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The question still remains: What constitutes "enough " for Ennis? What would it take to shake Ennis's stubborn resolve to keep standing it? During Ennis's marriage and his early years with Jack no one really challenged Ennis. No one ever really said no to him, called him on anything . Ennis never had a direct threat against himself. He ran the show in the relationship, he ran the show in his marriage, dictated the times and pace of the meetings, He was running things....until that last confrontation with Jack
First, Crimson Sky was right with the idea that Ennis knew Jack was cheating with the * ranch foreman*, not his wife. Second , he finds out that Jack has been to Mexico and what that entails. Then Jack not only admits it but then proceeds to verbally challenge Ennis and dared him to blame him. ( is that a problem?) . Ennis then threatens to kill Jack if he comes to know "all them things" I don't think he realized the serious potential threat that Randall was at this time, and Jack was not about to test Ennis's resolve further by confessing to another affair , let alone a seriuos threat to Ennis himself, athough , had he known that he was being "forced out" of Jack's life for good , THAT very well may have been enough for Ennis to wake up and smell the coffee. He knew what this meant and that Jack was serious about verbally pointing out at last, his own responsibility in creating this crisis. Perhaps maybe had Jack "released" Ennis and let time itself work on him, concerning the emptiness and the loss, and the idea that his Jack was moving on with his sweet life with someone else ? No , I don't think Ennis was done with Jack F-ckin Twist yet. ( check out Ennis's face again in the reunion scene! ) Jack was everything to him and had Jack lived THIS would have been his biggest challenge. I think he'd be up for it, After much counting of the cost, ( this is Ennis's analyzing ways) and knowing how much he'd be loosing to Randall. He'd fight himself and anybody else to keep him, imo.
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For me the battle was always his sexuality, and his fear of it. As far as someone finding out, yeah sure that's always in the background, but it's always been coming out to himself was his problem. And for me his torment is more understandable, and more poignant.
Precisely. I had always thought that this was the real battle within Ennis. Proulx had pretty much stated it in her BBM interview.
Do you think harbouring his fear of himself is more powerful than Jack's love? Ennis would have to do something, he was on the definitely at that breaking point.
They were well-matched: his fear and their love. One is not easily overpowered by the other....
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I strongly agree that writing that postcard to Jack about the November meeting was a big step for the emotionally screwed Ennis. Something did stir within him. When he lost Jack for good, he did take a big step to honor Jack's last wish. Would he take the same big step if he know he's about to loose Jack to another man?
Ennis certainly did change over the years. Let us recall that during the 4 years before BBM and the reunion, Ennis didn't even consider looking for Jack and establishing communication. True, it could have meant nothing but a continuation of the status quo, but the short story did use the word "almost" when saying that things got "almost" torqued back to the status quo. It is indeed hard to imagine that the discussion from their last meeting would not find a continuatuation in November, had that meeting happened...
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losing jack to another man is a big step. perhaps it will jolt ennis out of his dream where everything is perfect as long as he continued to stay in the closet but then he pretty much have an idea when jack mentioned mexico so maybe he wouldn't give up his oppotunity to live a normal life even for jack? it breaks my heart to see him suffer alone. if only he could let jack share his burden, things could have been different....
Yes, I think Jack always had the intention of sharing the risks and the burdens. That was why he was capable of contemplating the move with Randall, and that is why he could have died by the tire iron.
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The question still remains: What constitutes "enough " for Ennis? What would it take to shake Ennis's stubborn resolve to keep standing it? During Ennis's marriage and his early years with Jack no one really challenged Ennis. No one ever really said no to him, called him on anything . Ennis never had a direct threat against himself. He ran the show in the relationship, he ran the show in his marriage, dictated the times and pace of the meetings, He was running things....until that last confrontation with Jack
First, Crimson Sky was right with the idea that Ennis knew Jack was cheating with the * ranch foreman*, not his wife. Second , he finds out that Jack has been to Mexico and what that entails. Then Jack not only admits it but then proceeds to verbally challenge Ennis and dared him to blame him. ( is that a problem?) . Ennis then threatens to kill Jack if he comes to know "all them things" I don't think he realized the serious potential threat that Randall was at this time, and Jack was not about to test Ennis's resolve further by confessing to another affair , let alone a seriuos threat to Ennis himself, athough , had he known that he was being "forced out" of Jack's life for good , THAT very well may have been enough for Ennis to wake up and smell the coffee. He knew what this meant and that Jack was serious about verbally pointing out at last, his own responsibility in creating this crisis. Perhaps maybe had Jack "released" Ennis and let time itself work on him, concerning the emptiness and the loss, and the idea that his Jack was moving on with his sweet life with someone else ? No , I don't think Ennis was done with Jack F-ckin Twist yet. ( check out Ennis's face again in the reunion scene! ) Jack was everything to him and had Jack lived THIS would have been his biggest challenge. I think he'd be up for it, After much counting of the cost, ( this is Ennis's analyzing ways) and knowing how much he'd be loosing to Randall. He'd fight himself and anybody else to keep him, imo.
aintfoolin, in my opinion, "enough" had everything to do with Ennis himself, and not necessarily with Jack moving one with Randall. If Ennis was telling the truth when he said that he couldn'e stand it anymore, than that would mean that he was reaching the point where enough was enough. True, knowledge of Jack moving on would Ennis would have supplied the required perturbation that would push Ennis over the edge, but to be ON EDGE, Ennis had to have realized within himself that whatever he could not fix could not be countenanced indefinitely. I think this self-realization is the crux by which change would inevitably occur.
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Yes Tpe, I will back up and say that there is a major step Ennis must take himself. He was "almost" there when he broke down in Jack's arms,. He could no longer stand it anymore. The denial and all that it entails. I understand that he had to admit to himself as was said before by myself and others is that Ennis and Jack must be the same. he loved Jack. Another man , A man same as him and that in order to fight for Jack he would have to really understand and know exactly what he was fighting for and why. Had Jack confessed Randall to him, yes he'd be devastated, livid, hurt, and ready to hurt somebody even, but after the dust clears , Ennis still would be forced to take a good hard look at himself and what if anything he was going to do about Jack slipping quickly from his grasp and starting a new life that does'nt include him. he'd have to make a choice one way or the other. Will I lay down and give in finally to my fears? and loose Jack forever? Or look deep inside himself and find whatever it takes if anyway possible to shake off all those old fears and conflicts about who and what he really is and fight for Jack and their sweet love....Jack was'nt going to wait forever for him as much as he loved him. confessing Randall and what that meant, would prove that to him. I think they'd both had enough of the status quo. My thoughts.
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Yes, I think Jack always had the intention of sharing the risks and the burdens. That was why he was capable of contemplating the move with Randall, and that is why he could have died by the tire iron.
sometimes, i thought its better for jack if he just gave up on ennis. jack deserved someone better, someone who can love him despite all the weird looks and opposition from other people. i like jack and i hate to see him cry....maybe being with randall is for the best. ennis won't even have to keep on denying who he is then maybe he would be alot happier...and the show would have a happier ending
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Yes Tpe, I will back up and say that there is a major step Ennis must take himself. He was "almost" there when he broke down in Jack's arms,. He could no longer stand it anymore. The denial and all that it entails. I understand that he had to admit to himself as was said before by myself and others is that Ennis and Jack must be the same. he loved Jack. Another man , A man same as him and that in order to fight for Jack he would have to really understand and know exactly what he was fighting for and why. Had Jack confessed Randall to him, yes he'd be devastated, livid, hurt, and ready to hurt somebody even, but after the dust clears , Ennis still would be forced to take a good hard look at himself and what if anything he was going to do about Jack slipping quickly from his grasp and starting a new life that does'nt include him. he'd have to make a choice one way or the other. Will I lay down and give in finally to my fears? and loose Jack forever? Or look deep inside himself and find whatever it takes if anyway possible to shake off all those old fears and conflicts about who and what he really is and fight for Jack and their sweet love....Jack was'nt going to wait forever for him as much as he loved him. confessing Randall and what that meant, would prove that to him. I think they'd both had enough of the status quo. My thoughts.
Was Ennis perhaps so sure of his power over Jack that he thought Jack would wait forever? Or perhaps he himself thought that he would inevitably reconcile his fears and one day come to an understanding with Jack?
Thinking about this, I think it is neither. I suspect that Ennis was afraid of change, even though he knew that things were not bound to sit unchanged or unchallenged forever. It takes someone like Randall to unbalance Ennis. It is in those moments when you feel that we see him acknowledge his own weakness and indecisiveness in the face of Jack's dream.
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sometimes, i thought its better for jack if he just gave up on ennis. jack deserved someone better, someone who can love him despite all the weird looks and opposition from other people. i like jack and i hate to see him cry....maybe being with randall is for the best. ennis won't even have to keep on denying who he is then maybe he would be alot happier...and the show would have a happier ending
Love is such an irrational thing, no? It harkens back to the old thread about what made jack love Ennis.
I do think that Jack contemplated the move with Randall not to just "strike back" at Ennis. I agree that perhaps he was seeking "the best of all possible worlds". Randall was a compromise, no? Perhaps Jack hoped that if he could live the dream with Randall and get Ennis to accept this as a necessary compromise, then the love they shared would somehow yet endure.
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I don;t see ennis as feeling he has a hold over Jack - it's more, I think, that things have always been as they've been and he can see no way to change them, doesn't even want to in some ways. but in that last scene with Jack he's acknowledging his own mortality - he knows he can't go on walking out of jobs as they're become harder to find, and he has financial resposnsibilites to fulfill - in a sense he's just seeing that he's grown-up and can't go on acting like an irrespossible teenager. There's a part of both of them which reverts constantly to being nineteen and acting as they did then - Jack is lucky enough to have enough money ( and a fairly uninterested wife) to go on doing that but Ennis isn't.
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I don;t see ennis as feeling he has a hold over Jack - it's more, I think, that things have always been as they've been and he can see no way to change them, doesn;t even want to in some ways. but in that last scene with Jack he's acknowledging his own mortality - he knows he can;t go on walking out of jobs as they're become harder to find, and he has financial resposnsibilites to fulfill - in a sense he's just seeing that he's grown-up and can;t go on acting like an irrespossible teenager. There's a part of both pof them which reverts constantly to being nineteen and acting as they did then - Jack is lucky enough to have enough money ( and a fairly unintersted wife) to go on doing that but Ennis isn't.
But I wonder: did he really think that Jack would wait indefinitely? He certainly must have been aware of what Jack had wanted all these years. It would seem that he assumed that Jack would also "stand it". But knowing that he himself was already finding it difficult, could he really think Jack could continue to do so?
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If he does, it assumes on Ennis's part a very limited notion of Jack's nature. After that first summer, and certainly after the reunion, he must have seen Jack's openness, emotionalism, his almost reckless attitude - I can see that the latter might have made him even more defensive and self-denying. But he must also have seen Jack as desirable - Jack had married "the prettiest little gal in Childress" - since Ennis later pursues Cassie ( or she him) I wonder if he ever thought of Jack looking at other women ( or being pursued by them)?
Does it ever enter his head, until the mention of Mexico, that Jack has actually had other lovers? He evidently knows what there is "for boys like you" in Mexico, so has he been brooding about this? If so, the thought of other men finding Jack attractive or he them may also have entered his head. Perhaps deep down Randall is just what Ennis feared.
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If he does, it assumes on Ennis's part a very limited notion of Jack's nature. After that first summer, and certainly after the reunion, he must have seen Jack's openness, emotionalism, his almost reckless attitude - I can see that the latter might have made him even more defensive and self-denying. But he must also have seen Jack as desirable - Jack had married "the prettiest little gal in Childress" - since Ennis later pursues Cassie ( or she him) I wonder if he ever thought of Jack looking at other women ( or being pursued by them)?
Does it ever enter his head, until the mention of Mexico, that Jack has actually had other lovers? He evidently knows what there is "for boys like you" in Mexico, so has he been brooding about this? If so, the thought of other men finding Jack attractive or he them may also have entered his head. Perhaps deep down Randall is just what Ennis feared.
I think Ennis didn't really care to know outright, although I am sure the thought must have crossed his mind. That's why having to acknowledge Randall would have been a shock to him -- I do think he would have had to face Randall as a rival, had Jack lived.
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This question I have to ask, we spoke of Jack's nature sexual and other wise, but what of Ennis, He indeed was married and that failed, and the question of having sex with Cassie was never brought up,or do we assume it, ( I didn't noticed, unless I've missed something), and if he lived a life sexless, absence of any companionship other than Jack, this alone would tell you how mentally and physically he was tied to Jack. Jack was it for him, this was all he had. if he even thought of losing this how desperate do you think his action would be? He didn't have the options Jack did, If he lost Jack, he would lose the little he had, and even himself.
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This question I have to ask, we spoke of Jack's nature sexual and other wise, but what of Ennis, He indeed was married and that failed, and the question of having sex with Cassie was never brought up,or do we assume it, ( I didn't noticed, unless I've missed something), and if he lived a life sexless, absence of any companionship other than Jack, this alone would tell you how mentally and physically he was tied to Jack. Jack was it for him, this was all he had. if he even thought of losing this how desperate do you think his action would be? He didn't have the options Jack did, If he lost Jack, he would lose the little he had, and even himself.
In an old thread, the relationship between Ennis and Cassie was discussed, and I think I stated there my belief that Ennis and Cassie did have sexual relations. The strongest indication is the wine that Ennis drank with Alma Jr. -- the screenplay indicates that this bottle was leftover from the days with Cassie. I would assume then that Cassie did stay in Ennis's trailer -- most likely, she stayed the night.
So I personally think that Jack was intimate with Randall while Ennis remained monogamous. The marked difference, I think, is that Jack probably had sex exclusively with men at that point in time, whereas Ennis probably stuck to women/a woman (not counting Jack). This may account for Ennis's comment about "boys" like you. In his way of thinking, he did not fall into that category because he only did it with Jack as far as men are concerned.
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IMHO:
This is when the possessiveness is kicked right to the surface. Being "queer" and not being a "queer" is not important at this moment. Jack is giving away what belonged to Ennis. Jack belonged to him. Jack was his. He would kill him if ever found out about all the things he didn't know about. Ennis was not conflicted at this moment, and he ain't foolin.
Jack indeed knew when to draw back from Ennis, he knew of his violence. Ennis function on pure emotion and not much thought. Jack took a big chance on telling him about Mexico. But he had no choice, Ennis wasn't giving in on much.
To tell him of Randall would result I think, two ways, Ennis would have beaten him to death, or got on his knees and begged him not to go back to Randall. Would Ennis go off with Jack, heck no, he wouldn't, but there was no way he would give Jack up. (Crazy isn't it?).
Ennis wasn't a "Dr. Phil" let explore our feelings kind of guy. We seen so many time in this story how he internalized things until it was to much for him to bare.
i totally agree. ennis would never have given in to jack's demands to be become like a normal couple. i think he would kill himself first before admitting that he's gay.....or that he loves jack. even if he found out about randall before jack's death, there is a big possibility that he would just walk away from their relationship...seeing that he wants jack to 'let him be'. it breaks my heart to see ennis in pain but sometimes, a person have to hurt first in order to cherish the better things in life that are to come next. randall is jack's way of being in touch with who he really is inside. it could have been avoided if only ennis would stop feeling so ashamed of their relationship....ennis drove jack to mexico and into the arms of randall. jack waited 20 years for ennis, i think that's about long enough for someone to keep waiting without an answer. i would have lost patience long before that. if ennis couldn't give jack what he wants then maybe randall can and maybe ennis should just 'let him be' for once....
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i totally agree. ennis would never have given in to jack's demands to be become like a normal couple. i think he would kill himself first before admitting that he's gay.....or that he loves jack. even if he found out about randall before jack's death, there is a big possibility that he would just walk away from their relationship...seeing that he wants jack to 'let him be'. it breaks my heart to see ennis in pain but sometimes, a person have to hurt first in order to cherish the better things in life that are to come next. randall is jack's way of being in touch with who he really is inside. it could have been avoided if only ennis would stop feeling so ashamed of their relationship....ennis drove jack to mexico and into the arms of randall. jack waited 20 years for ennis, i think that's about long enough for someone to keep waiting without an answer. i would have lost patience long before that. if ennis couldn't give jack what he wants then maybe randall can and maybe ennis should just 'let him be' for once....
Wonderful, provocative, and insightful post, lauren. You really raise many points here relating to Ennis's possible reaction to Jack and Randall.
Given that you think that Ennis would never give in to Jack's dream, one would think that he would be stoic once he finds out about Randall. And indeed, perhaps Ennis would recognize the impossibility of holding on to Jack and keeping him at bay at the same time.
Ennis is a proud person, and finding out about Randall would surely be a blow to his own self-worth. In spite of his threat to Jack, it is quite plausible that he would just let go and sink deeper into his own sense of isolation.
It is sad to contemplate. And it is true what you said: that it has to hurt sometimes in order to cherish.
Ennis's tragic flaw is at the very heart of this story. It informs us with a cold, certain logic of why some things are meant to be.
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Please understand me, I don't think there was anyway Ennis could just walk away from Jack, in the deepest part of their relationship, it wasn't about being gay or straight or what it meant. No matter what Ennis said or did, proclaimed, bore witness to, etc. Ennis couldn't just walk away. To walk away from Jack, would be an ending to his own life. His life was Jack, unknowingly, knowingly how ever you want to look at it.
Ennis was not philosophical guy, he existed on his need and love for Jack, no matter how badly he treated him. If Jack would have just turned away from him, there is no way Ennis could have handled it.
He wrote to Jack confirming November. He did something out of the ordinary, he wrote to Jack to make sure he was coming, how long was it that he might not have heard from him? (forget Jack was dead, let say he hadn't died), How crazy do you think this might have made him? What would he have done?
IMHO:
He would have done something, he couldn't just let it go, I don't think he would have ever let Jack go, if he couldn't have him I don't think anyone could.
I know that may be an ugly way to look at it, Ennis was not a saint, Ennis could be brought to violence, when it came to Jack he could fall to his knees, or raise his hand. But to just turn and walk away, when it came to Jack I don't think Ennis could or would, he would have done it 20 years before.
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IMHO:
He would have done something, he couldn't just let it go, I don't think he would have ever let Jack go, if he couldn't have him I don't think anyone could.
I know that may be an ugly way to look at it, Ennis was not a saint, Ennis could be brought to violence, when it came to Jack he could fall to his knees, or raise his hand. But to just turn and walk away, when it came to Jack I don't think Ennis could or would, he would have done it 20 years before.
I would also like to think that it would be this way, manhattangirl, but I have to admit that lauren's point of view is also plausible, if we are to admit a certain stubbornness, pride, and a deep sense of hurst and hard stoicism in Ennis's character.
Ennis of course reached out for a November meeting, but I wonder if he would have reacted similarly had he known about Randall. I do think it was possible that he would have retreated back into himself, and would have refused to reach out. It would have been devastating for him, I'm sure, and in such circumstances, he could go either way.
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I would also like to think that it would be this way, manhattangirl, but I have to admit that lauren's point of view is also plausible, if we are to admit a certain stubbornness, pride, and a deep sense of hurst and hard stoicism in Ennis's character.
Ennis of course reached out for a November meeting, but I wonder if he would have reacted similarly had he known about Randall. I do think it was possible that he would have retreated back into himself, and would have refused to reach out. It would have been devastating for him, I'm sure, and in such circumstances, he could go either way.
i totally, absolutely agree....knowing about jack's death through a postcard is like taking a punch in the stomach for ennis, jolting him out of his dream that only straight couples are normal. maybe if the movie were to go on, it might show that ennis is more accepting of his relationship with jack. losing jack forever may just make him realize how important jack is to him. sometimes i can't help but wonder, if ennis had a similar devastating impact like jack's death when he was still alive, it might make him want a relationship with jack more. knowing about randall might have a similar impact to jack's death since it has potential to make him lose jack forever too. maybe then, he would appreciate him more...and maybe if jack really was destined to die, at least he could have a few more days to know that ennis really loved him and was willing to sacrifice for their love. i mean, how often do you meet a guy whom you want to have a 20-year affair with? but still, like tpe said, anything is possible...he could go either way
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Then we're looking for an inner nobility in Ennis, that I've must have missed. I could see it in Jack's eyes after the final confrontation as he watched Ennis drive away, there I could see that stoic nature in Jack, he could let Ennis slip away from him to end the torture they were putting themselves through. I just don't see that in Ennis.
If Ennis was faced with the idea of Randall, and knowing he could lose Jack would be the one thing that would break Ennis completely. Jack's death left him no choice, he couldn't fix so he had to stand it. But for Jack to go to someone else, Ennis would've made Jack answer for that. Ennis's uncontrolled emotions was all he ever had to used in situations he couldn't control.
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Then we're looking for an inner nobility in Ennis, that I've must have missed. I could see it in Jack's eyes after the final confrontation as he watched Ennis drive away, there I could see that stoic nature in Jack, he could let Ennis slip away from him to end the torture they were putting themselves through. I just don't see that in Ennis.
If Ennis was faced with the idea of Randall, and knowing he could lose Jack would be the one thing that would break Ennis completely. Jack's death left him no choice, he couldn't fix so he had to stand it. But for Jack to go to someone else, Ennis would've made Jack answer for that. Ennis's uncontrolled emotions was all he ever had to used in situations he couldn't control.
i totally agree....it was the look in jack's eyes after their finl\al confrontation too tat got me thinking...if jack really had lived on, would he had kept the relationship with ennis going? i can practically feel his pain and hesitation when he watched ennis walk away. jack was already planning to move back to Lightning Flat with Randall so it definitely shows that there he is willing to let ennis go and move on but the question is, will ennis let jack go too? throughout the movie, he kept sending mixed signals to jack. at one time, i really thought they would get together for real like when they were reunited after 4years...that was totally touching. i wanted to cry when they hugged but it seems that you can't have everything you wished for....ennis may have made jack answer to him if he ound out about randall but jack seems pretty determined. maybe he could make ennis see it his way....both of them had fought to keep the relationship going for 20years and throughout the 20years, they felt nothing but pain and suffering. maybe it was time to let go....
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There's a saying - if you love someone, let them go. But the same has to apply to you - if you love yourself, you may have to let someone else go, either because they force you to or because they're doing you so much harm that nothing can justify continuing. From the look on his face, I wonder if as Ennis drives away, this is the point Jack is getting to - has got to even. When they parted after the divorce, Jack drove straight to Mexico. This time he's said he's going to his parents' home, but where after that? Is this going to be the time when hegoes back to Childress, leaves Lureen and strikes out on his own, or with Randall? It's 1983 - is Jack about to come out?
Ennis has always been obsessed with protecting himself - not Jack, NB, but himself, from the threat of homophobes. To challenge Randall he would have to accept that he'd have to offer Jack a real alternative, not just more years, decades even, of very occasional brief meetings. And I don't see him as capable of doing that.
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It's like some weird Eugene O'Neil play. If Ennis wasn't going to do anything if he found Jack going with Randall, I could see Ennis sealing himself up in his trailer, resigning from the world, or the little of the world he had, and punishing himself for his love for Jack. What would he have? In Jack's death he have him to mourn, he would be his until his own death. To have Jack living and loving someone else is a sentence that may look to him as a punishment, for loving Jack, and he must suffer for it.
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i totally, absolutely agree....knowing about jack's death through a postcard is like taking a punch in the stomach for ennis, jolting him out of his dream that only straight couples are normal. maybe if the movie were to go on, it might show that ennis is more accepting of his relationship with jack. losing jack forever may just make him realize how important jack is to him. sometimes i can't help but wonder, if ennis had a similar devastating impact like jack's death when he was still alive, it might make him want a relationship with jack more. knowing about randall might have a similar impact to jack's death since it has potential to make him lose jack forever too. maybe then, he would appreciate him more...and maybe if jack really was destined to die, at least he could have a few more days to know that ennis really loved him and was willing to sacrifice for their love. i mean, how often do you meet a guy whom you want to have a 20-year affair with? but still, like tpe said, anything is possible...he could go either way
If Jack had been given a second chance and had he lived, I woulder if the near loss of Jack would have been enough to push Ennis over the edge. I know this may sound a bit like the standard romance plot, but I do think Ennis would have reacted differently had he gone through a situation where he nearly lost Jack. Would knowledge of Jack and Randall have mattered to Ennis after that, I wonder? Probably not...
But Ennis didn't get a second chance, unfortunately. When he found out about Randall from John Twist, he seemed strangely muted. What did it matter then? All was lost...
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Then we're looking for an inner nobility in Ennis, that I've must have missed. I could see it in Jack's eyes after the final confrontation as he watched Ennis drive away, there I could see that stoic nature in Jack, he could let Ennis slip away from him to end the torture they were putting themselves through. I just don't see that in Ennis.
If Ennis was faced with the idea of Randall, and knowing he could lose Jack would be the one thing that would break Ennis completely. Jack's death left him no choice, he couldn't fix so he had to stand it. But for Jack to go to someone else, Ennis would've made Jack answer for that. Ennis's uncontrolled emotions was all he ever had to used in situations he couldn't control.
I do think Ennis's inner nobility (wonderful phrase!) lies elsewhere -- his is unfliching loyalty and faithfulness. Unfortunately, loyal and faithful people tend to be very unforgiving when they themselves become a victim of unfaithfulness. So Ennis's great strength becomes a 2-edged sword for Jack.
Jack's inner nobility was a certain expansiveness that Ennis never really had. This expansiveness led to greater understanding, patience, and understanding. This is why I think Jack could still have loved Ennis even after he had moved on with Randall. There is a sense of cherish what you can and forgive all...
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There's a saying - if you love someone, let them go. But the same has to apply to you - if you love yourself, you may have to let someone else go, either because they force you to or because they're doing you so much harm that nothing can justify continuing. From the look on his face, I wonder if as Ennis drives away, this is the point Jack is getting to - has got to even. When they parted after the divorce, Jack drove straight to Mexico. This time he's said he's going to his parents' home, but where after that? Is this going to be the time when hegoes back to Childress, leaves Lureen and strikes out on his own, or with Randall? It's 1983 - is Jack about to come out?
Ennis has always been obsessed with protecting himself - not Jack, NB, but himself, from the threat of homophobes. To challenge Randall he would have to accept that he'd have to offer Jack a real alternative, not just more years, decades even, of very occasional brief meetings. And I don't see him as capable of doing that.
Words of wisdom here WW...
I do think that Ennis may have really thought that his way was the best way of keeping their relationship intact. His fear seemed to have taught him that if you keep thjings under wraps, then it will survive. Part of his anger of knowing about Randall would probably center around his feeling that Jack was being totally reckless, and indeed, Jack's death may have reinforced this with Ennis...
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Words of wisdom here WW...
I do think that Ennis may have really thought that his way was the best way of keeping their relationship intact. His fear seemed to have taught him that if you keep thjings under wraps, then it will survive. Part of his anger of knowing about Randall would probably center around his feeling that Jack was being totally reckless, and indeed, Jack's death may have reinforced this with Ennis...
Then Ennis would have learned nothing. In Jack, Ennis's sexual and emotional being was centered. For the twenty years, including the four years of separation, Ennis functioned only on what he learned from Jack. Living what he thought was a life that should be lived, but contrary to what he had with Jack. When Jack even hinted at the thought he fought it, but held on because with Jack this is the only time he was really alive, even in the bad times he was feeling something.
Jack was the only person in Ennis's life that could bring feelings out in him. He emotional reacted to Jack, he physically reacted to Jack's touch, he could speak with Jack, whether Jack wanted to hear it or not, Ennis gave him his opinions, ask questions, talked.
To lose this, to lose what you think is the only thing that's keeping you alive, living in the world. What makes anyone think that he could easily walk away from it, just to hand it over to Randall? Ennis said to Jack, "It's because of you I'm like this", Was this accusatory, or was it fact that because of his love for him, and that he lived just for him, this is who he was, and this was all he had. For Ennis to resign himself to the thought he lost is hard. Randall was tresspassing on his life, claiming the one person Ennis thought belonged to him exclusively. Ennis was too much of a man to let this happened. Randall was a predator that had to be dealt with like back when they were herding sheep. Am I wrong?
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Then Ennis would have learned nothing. In Jack, Ennis's sexual and emotional being was centered. For the twenty years, including the four years of separation, Ennis functioned only on what he learned from Jack. Living what he thought was a life that should be lived, but contrary to what he had with Jack. When Jack even hinted at the thought he fought it, but held on because with Jack this is the only time he was really alive, even in the bad times he was feeling something.
Jack was the only person in Ennis's life that could bring feelings out in him. He emotional reacted to Jack, he physically reacted to Jack's touch, he could speak with Jack, whether Jack wanted to hear it or not, Ennis gave him his opinions, ask questions, talked.
To lose this, to lose what you think is the only thing that's keeping you alive, living in the world. What makes anyone think that he could easily walk away from it, just to hand it over to Randall? Ennis said to Jack, "It's because of you I'm like this", Was this accusatory, or was it fact that because of his love for him, and that he lived just for him, this is who he was, and this was all he had. For Ennis to resign himself to the thought he lost is hard. Randall was tresspassing on his life, claiming the one person Ennis thought belonged to him exclusively. Ennis was too much of a man to let this happened. Randall was a predator that had to be dealt with like back when they were herding sheep. Am I wrong?
Yes, in a sense, Ennis didn't learn to move to the next level during those 20 years. He was too content with what he had, and didn't dream of what could yet be. And yes, I do think Jack was the only one that kept this in equilibrium, since Ennis left to himself would probably have let things slide for the most part.
It is interesting to think about how passive Ennis was most of the time, but yet can be so active at crucual points, such as the reunion and the unrealized November meeting.
Now as far as Randall is concerned, I don't think of him as a predator -- at least we don't have proof of this. Did he even know about Ennis? THis is unsure. He did not seem to force anything on Jack. He allowed Jack to think things for himself, and the idea of moving together was certainly Jack's. In this sense, Jack was more the active agent and Randall was the passive one -- but a willing passive one, I guess.
As they say: all's fair in love and war. Jack had the choice between Ennis and Randall. Neither Ennis nor Randall were really the active agent in this choice. Both were passive, by and large. Hence, I think it is unfair to judge Randall as a predator, and to imply that Ennis "owned" Jack. In the end, it did boil down to Jack's choice.
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Now as far as Randall is concerned, I don't think of him as a predator -- at least we don't have proof of this. Did he even know about Ennis? THis is unsure. He did not seem to force anything on Jack. He allowed Jack to think things for himself, and the idea of moving together was certainly Jack's. In this sense, Jack was more the active agent and Randall was the passive one -- but a willing passive one, I guess.
As they say: all's fair in love and war. Jack had the choice between Ennis and Randall. Neither Ennis nor Randall were really the active agent in this choice. Both were passive, by and large. Hence, I think it is unfair to judge Randall as a predator, and to imply that Ennis "owned" Jack. In the end, it did boil down to Jack's choice.
I'm thinking only in way Ennis might see Randall, as predator, something entering in his life, claiming what was his. Seeing Ennis reactions to other situations he thought was threatening do you think this would be any different? We all agree it's Jack choice, but how far do you think Ennis would go to eliminate choice?
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I'm thinking only in way Ennis might see Randall, as predator, something entering in his life, claiming what was his. Seeing Ennis reactions to other situations he thought was threatening do you think this would be any different? We all agree it's Jack choice, but how far do you think Ennis would go to eliminate choice?
Ah, well I do think this is possible: that Ennis would consider him an interloper. If Ennis ahd found out about Randall, I personally think he could go two ways: violently react or clam up and break off communication with Jack. His threat seems to indicate that he would do the former, but we know that Ennis is impulsive and so he might reconsider his threat after some time. In the long run, I think Ennis would probably be more hurt than angry about Randall. But I think anger for him occurs suddenly, and that given time to cool off, he would probably more likely not to carry out his threat...
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I agree - in the end Ennis is a stoic and a fatalist, almost - I don't think he'd actively try to change himslfl or the situation. in that last scene he says "Why don't you let me be?" and this I think indicates that he would rather have no more of the emotional turmoil that surrounds him now - too many conflicting emotions, too many demands, too much he can't explain or justify - easier to run away.
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Jack: "I wish I knew how to quit you."
Ennis: "Why don't you, why don't you just let me be"
How painful, wanting to let go but can't, and still wanting each other. waiting for someone to make the next move, the first move, going in circles. if fate hadn't step in, these two men, IMO, wouldn't have stopped. Randall, be damned, nothing would have kept them apart. they were unable to live without each other. Ennis wouldn't have changed, and Jack would have kept going to Brokeback to be with him.
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Tp quote Jack, "For how long?" It's already more and more difficult for Ennis to get away - that's what precipitates that final confrontation. Are they going to live the rest of their lives, specially when they age, as they've lived the twenty years up to now?
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Yes, Walkers, wheelchair, a tank of oxygen, they would take to be with each other. And I like to think, if Jack would have lived and they were really old guys, the only fear Ennis would have is not have a heart attack when Jack lay next to him.
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In a way, it is good that we did not have to see how Ennis would have reacted to Randall. I suspect that Ennis was also relieved that he came to know about if after Jack's death. Did it matter after that? When all else is said and done, it's whether you love the person that matters in the last analysis.
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We did'nt get to see that confrontation, but I admit it is one of the most intruging questions for myself. How would it look? everything layed out on the table. I'm curious to know how Ennis, the emotionless, shy, withdrawn Ennis would deal with a threat to someone taking his beloved Jack away. THIS would be a very, very interesting scenario IMO. It would give a clear insight into this complex man. Frankly, I'd pay to see this. His love for Jack would be tested , face to face with the person who will replace him in Jack's life. I am one who abhors violence, though it may come to that , but I'm more interested in Ennis's verbal rational. Maybe this would motivate him see what is at stake for himself and Jack who I beleive he loves. What could have been is elusive to us but it's definitly worth discussing . I love picking their minds , finding more about them....and ourselves. Thank goodness for the ennisjack.com Forum.
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If Ennis had known about Randall before Jack's convincing speech about "You have no idea how bad it gets," and "I wish I knew how to quit you," he might well have gone ballistic. Afterwards, I feel that he would have understood that he had little right to keep Jack on such a short leash, considering how little the boys could get together. When Ennis did find out about Randall after Jack's death, he seemed to absorb the shock pretty well. When he went to Jack's room, I don't get the sense that Jack's "infidelity" was standing between them. Ennis was managing to live with it.
I think it's interesting that Jack's supposed philandering with women didn't faze Ennis, and Jack instinctively knew this. That's why he transposed the gender of the person he was having a thing with. He knew better than to indicate that the person was another man. In many same-sex relationships, by contrast, a partner's involvement with someone of the opposite sex might cause even greater jealousy than with another man. If his partner has taken up with another man, at least he knows the field of battle, he knows how to compete. In the case of Jack and Ennis, there seems to be a tacit agreement that whatever goes on between them and women is acceptable. Sex with the opposite sex doesn't seem to enter the same arena as the sex the boys have with each other. They seem quite secure about that, but if the prospect of dalliance with another male appears . . .well, you saw how Ennis reacted to Mexico.
Gearry
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When Jack ask Ennis in their last meeting, "you haven't found anybody to marry", always left me wondering about their views on woman, marriage, why did they do it. They speak of woman, as a necessary evil, something both needed in order to live a life outside of their relationship. It seemed out of the ordinary to live alone than being married, and both men living together totally out of the question, how crazy is that? When they spoke of their wives, and or other woman, it was with a cool detachment. I think Ennis heart belonged to Jack, he wasn't interested in anyone else, something I don't think he was ready to admit to Jack, and not even to himself.
Jack knew what exactly to say to Ennis, to speak of a specific man, would have sent Ennis right over the edge. He kind of hedged his bet even speaking of Mexico, which sent Ennis over the edge and he threaten Jack with death if ever found anything about what Jack was doing away from him. Amazing dynamic, or is it?
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If Ennis had known about Randall before Jack's convincing speech about "You have no idea how bad it gets," and "I wish I knew how to quit you," he might well have gone ballistic. Afterwards, I feel that he would have understood that he had little right to keep Jack on such a short leash, considering how little the boys could get together. When Ennis did find out about Randall after Jack's death, he seemed to absorb the shock pretty well. When he went to Jack's room, I don't get the sense that Jack's "infidelity" was standing between them. Ennis was managing to live with it.
I think it's interesting that Jack's supposed philandering with women didn't faze Ennis, and Jack instinctively knew this. That's why he transposed the gender of the person he was having a thing with. He knew better than to indicate that the person was another man. In many same-sex relationships, by contrast, a partner's involvement with someone of the opposite sex might cause even greater jealousy than with another man. If his partner has taken up with another man, at least he knows the field of battle, he knows how to compete. In the case of Jack and Ennis, there seems to be a tacit agreement that whatever goes on between them and women is acceptable. Sex with the opposite sex doesn't seem to enter the same arena as the sex the boys have with each other. They seem quite secure about that, but if the prospect of dalliance with another male appears . . .well, you saw how Ennis reacted to Mexico.
Gearry
Hello manolo, and welcome!
Yes, other posts have noted the difference in attitude towards women. And yes, I did think that it was a deliberate transposition of gender in an attempt to hide the affair with Randall from Ennis. I had wondered out aloud before if Ennis saw through this attempt and yet kept his cool. Perhaps this is unlikely as his reaction would have been perhaps more intense and hostile had he really known the truth, no?
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We did'nt get to see that confrontation, but I admit it is one of the most intruging questions for myself. How would it look? everything layed out on the table. I'm curious to know how Ennis, the emotionless, shy, withdrawn Ennis would deal with a threat to someone taking his beloved Jack away. THIS would be a very, very interesting scenario IMO. It would give a clear insight into this complex man. Frankly, I'd pay to see this. His love for Jack would be tested , face to face with the person who will replace him in Jack's life. I am one who abhors violence, though it may come to that , but I'm more interested in Ennis's verbal rational. Maybe this would motivate him see what is at stake for himself and Jack who I beleive he loves. What could have been is elusive to us but it's definitly worth discussing . I love picking their minds , finding more about them....and ourselves. Thank goodness for the ennisjack.com Forum.
I would have found this equally fascinationg, but very difficult to get right, no? Would he have been able to rationalize this in any way? Ennis can be so inarticulate, that I fear that the task might prove beyond him. Not that he did not have any sense of natural intelligence. It is just that he would have to rationalize all this in spite of having to face up to this emotionally also. And we've seen that when that happened before (e.g., the sudden decision to bring the sheep down from BBM back in 63 or the Thanksgiving scene with Alma) Ennis would inevitably lash out...
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Jack knew what exactly to say to Ennis, to speak of a specific man, would have sent Ennis right over the edge. He kind of hedged his bet even speaking of Mexico, which sent Ennis over the edge and he threaten Jack with death if ever found anything about what Jack was doing away from him. Amazing dynamic, or is it?
Yes, I did think that Jack had measured Ennis exactly in this regard. Even when they were up on BBM (after the FNIT) he knew that it was foolish to push Ennis to a position that he could not handle. Jack's hedging about revealing an affair with Randall (couched in a rather indirect way: as an affair with the wife) is indeed a manifestation of this. He could not hide it, but he could also not bring it out into the open.
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Ennis knew Jack was unfaithful to him with at least 2 other people. The mexican hustlers and some ranch foreman's wife ( LaShawn) . He showed his jealous streak concerning the hustlers, but shrugged off the foreman's wife, dismissing it as was said above a *necessary evil* So whatever Jack was doing with women, was *necessary* in Ennis mind to maintain the facade, the secret affair they were carrying on. After all he'd done it himself with Alma and Cassie. This seems to be the *unspoken rationalization* between these two.Women were the cover against suspicion. Jack seemed more adept at maintaining this type set-up since he never divorced Lureen, and from the looks of things could have easily actually charmed LaShawn into an affair if he chose to. The man had it going on!. Still, have'nt figure his angle in asking LaShawn to dance like that , and where this fits into this thing but I'm working on it.I'm sure it was'nt her charming gift of gab.
Tpe, concerning Ennis being articulate in the face to face scenario with Randall, I agree wholeheartedly that he would not exactly come off like Shakespere or speak with any eloquence of great poets, but I'm not expecting him to. It's not Ennis manner to do so. But I remain very inquisitive of this fascinating scenario. I'd like to hear, in his own way, in his own words, Ennis's say on the matter if anything. It's the bottom of the 9th, Randall is walking toward homeplate with Jack on his arm. His love, his life. Surely Ennis would be able to string a couple sentences together as he was shown he could if the subject mattered to him. Jack mattered most definitly to him and I'd love to hear his story. And if Jack was in close proximity to this event...All the better, He'd gain a wealth of insight into his man.( Will Ennis fight for me?) I'd luv this.
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The man had it going on!. Still, haven't figure his angle in asking LaShawn to dance like that , and where this fits into this thing but I'm working on it.I'm sure it wasn't her charming gift of gab.
I 've wondered about that too. Why did Jack ask LaShawn to dance? Was it a dig at Lureen, or removing himself from an uncomfortable situation, after the glances Randall and Jack kept giving each other, it must have disturbed Jack in some way. He must have felt he had to get away from Randall, he was feeling something. Then when Randall approached he about going away together, Jack froze, he was right. He was coming on to him. Too stun to answer him, we left with that question open, and I mean wide open. Would he or wouldn't he.
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Ennis knew Jack was unfaithful to him with at least 2 other people. The mexican hustlers and some ranch foreman's wife ( LaShawn) . He showed his jealous streak concerning the hustlers, but shrugged off the foreman's wife, dismissing it as was said above a *necessary evil* So whatever Jack was doing with women, was *necessary* in Ennis mind to maintain the facade, the secret affair they were carrying on. After all he'd done it himself with Alma and Cassie. This seems to be the *unspoken rationalization* between these two.Women were the cover against suspicion. Jack seemed more adept at maintaining this type set-up since he never divorced Lureen, and from the looks of things could have easily actually charmed LaShawn into an affair if he chose to. The man had it going on!. Still, have'nt figure his angle in asking LaShawn to dance like that , and where this fits into this thing but I'm working on it.I'm sure it was'nt her charming gift of gab.
aintfoolin, would you thin that this *unspoken rationalization* is a key to understanding Ennis's behaviour? Many times, he allows appearances to get in the way with his obtaining happiness with Jack. Also, real or imagined fears of being found out by other people play a huge part in his behaviour.
Tpe, concerning Ennis being articulate in the face to face scenario with Randall, I agree wholeheartedly that he would not exactly come off like Shakespere or speak with any eloquence of great poets, but I'm not expecting him to. It's not Ennis manner to do so. But I remain very inquisitive of this fascinating scenario. I'd like to hear, in his own way, in his own words, Ennis's say on the matter if anything. It's the bottom of the 9th, Randall is walking toward homeplate with Jack on his arm. His love, his life. Surely Ennis would be able to string a couple sentences together as he was shown he could if the subject mattered to him. Jack mattered most definitly to him and I'd love to hear his story. And if Jack was in close proximity to this event...All the better, He'd gain a wealth of insight into his man.( Will Ennis fight for me?) I'd luv this.
Yes, a confrontation between Randall, Jack, and Ennis would not have remained silent, I would assume. And I would agree that anything Ennis would have said in such a confrontation would have probably held deep significance. But I am also equally fascinated in those things that might not have been said. Ennis is equally compelling in how he expresses himself without words. His reaction, wordless or not, would have been most fascinating...
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I 've wondered about that too. Why did Jack ask LaShawn to dance? Was it a dig at Lureen, or removing himself from an uncomfortable situation, after the glances Randall and Jack kept giving each other, it must have disturbed Jack in some way. He must have felt he had to get away from Randall, he was feeling something. Then when Randall approached he about going away together, Jack froze, he was right. He was coming on to him. Too stun to answer him, we left with that question open, and I mean wide open. Would he or wouldn't he.
OT: I think both the reasons you give are correct. Jack wanted to make a dig at Lureen and that he wanted to "escape" Randall's overt stares...
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I always thought asking LaShawn to dance was Jack's subconscious practice run at leaving his relationship with Ennis, and taking up with someone else. He was so caught up in his secret world, he gave no thought to the feelings of his wife sitting there. And they were never enemies. They were always kind to each other. Or maybe he wanted to transfer the whole idea of cheating, from Ennis to his wife. Maybe he thought cheating on his wife would somehow replace the urge to cheat on Ennis.
Jack tried everything he could to "fix it." From standing it as it was with Ennis, to mexico, to marriage, to a neighbor's wife and a rancher.
Too bad Jack never played his final card in spite of Ennis's rage. Not as an ultimatum, but if he had just told Ennis that another man was interested, maybe Ennis would have been more open to figure out how he and Jack could be together. If Ennis flew into a rage, Jack could say, if you can't stand it, you've got to fix it.
Transfer the responsibility to Ennis. Ennis never got enough of his own medicine... it was always his way. He had Jack all tied up and under control, and took advantage of Jack's loyalty and love. That is more wrong than Jack seducing Ennis in the first place. But Ennis even played that card against Jack. Jack couldn't win, no matter what he did. Ennis always made him wrong.
The definition of insanity: To repeat the same behavior while expecting different results. that's Jack. It's amazing he didn't go insane doing the same thing while hoping for different results and never getting it.
Ennis's idea of fixing any infidelity on Jack's part was to kill him. That's insane. Ennis didn't want him, but didn't want anyone else to have him. If Jack was going to start a new life, he wasn't even free to discuss it with his explosive lover. He just had to do it. "S--t, that's hard." Jack Twist
Did Ennis have any right to grieve? Maybe that's why he barely shed a tear. I always wondered why he wasn't crying buckets. He had no right to. He was the only one who could have fixed it and he knew it.
All those years he gave it to Jack to fix. All those years, he had it his way. All those years, he blamed Jack for everything. That's way too easy, Ennis.
On the other hand, realistically, Jack would have been getting 100's of proposals and offers from men who would make Ennis look like the farm boy he was. Jack stayed gorgeous. Men would have lined up. It's pretty unrealistic that he would give his loyalty to this raging/stoic ranch hand who wouldn't commit all those years.
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Ah, but you forget, love has nothing to do with good looks or logic. As the tagline for the movie says: Love is a Force of Nature. Jack loved Ennis because it's what his heart told him to do.
And I believe that Ennis loved Jack for the same reasons. He was just unable to accept or acknowledge it because of the conditioning of his upbringing and his own uncertainties. Ennis gave up a lot for his relationship with Jack, relative to who he was and what mattered to him.
As to how he would react to the idea of Randall, I think Manolo was right about the time frame: if he found out after the confrontation, it would be tempered with the knowledge he'd gained from that conversation. If he found out before, I'm not sure what he would think or do. :s)
Still and all, I don't like to think too much about Randall. For one thing, we really don't know much about him. And despite what Pa Twist said, we have no way of knowing that Jack ever seriously considered making a life with him (or vice versa). At any rate, I agree with manhattan girl:
Jack: "I wish I knew how to quit you."
Ennis: "Why don't you, why don't you just let me be"
How painful, wanting to let go but can't, and still wanting each other. waiting for someone to make the next move, the first move, going in circles. if fate hadn't step in, these two men, IMO, wouldn't have stopped. Randall, be damned, nothing would have kept them apart. they were unable to live without each other. Ennis wouldn't have changed, and Jack would have kept going to Brokeback to be with him.
Yes, Walkers, wheelchair, a tank of oxygen, they would take to be with each other. And I like to think, if Jack would have lived and they were really old guys, the only fear Ennis would have is not have a heart attack when Jack lay next to him.
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Interesting exchange here.
How Ennis and Jack saw each other after the last meeting is a true enigma to me. On one hand, the possibility arises wherein Jack resigns himself to an Ennis that would never change. On the other hand, there is the possibility of an Ennis who perhaps sees the need to change, if only to stand what he could not fix. But they remain possibilities, and Jack's death robs us of some resolution. Ennis's remorse dominates the scnes after jack's death, but it becomes less clear how his realization of Jack moving on with someone else would have affected things had Jack lived.
Death is sometimes the great Mirror. But more often, it is the great Divide. Jack's death robs us of many possibilities that may have come into flower after their last meeting, but perhaps it was for ther best that certain things remained unfulfilled. That is why their love moves us: it survives adrift in a sea of possibilities.
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Love's not logical so it doesn't concern itself with externals - and love can't be turned off and on - it just exists. Nor when it becomes a problem can one easily escape it, even when one wants to. Nor does it die when not returned - "Love is not love/Which alters when it alteration finds."
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My Love is of a birth as rare
As 'tis, for object, strange and high ;
It was begotten by Despair,
Upon Impossibility.
Magnanimous Despair alone
Could show me so divine a thing,
Where feeble hope could ne'er have flown,
But vainly flapped its tinsel wing.
And yet I quickly might arrive
Where my extended soul is fixed ;
But Fate does iron wedges drive,
And always crowds itself betwixt.
For Fate with jealous eye does see
Two perfect loves, nor lets them close;
Their union would her ruin be,
And her tyrannic power depose.
And therefore her decrees of steel
Us as the distant poles have placed,
(Though Love's whole world on us doth wheel),
Not by themselves to be embraced,
Unless the giddy heaven fall,
And earth some new convulsion tear.
And, us to join, the world should all
Be cramp'd into a planisphere.
As lines, so love's oblique, may well
Themselves in every angle greet:
But ours, so truly parallel,
Though infinite, can never meet.
Therefore the love which us doth bind,
But Fate so enviously debars,
Is the conjunction of the mind,
And opposition of the stars.
(By You Know Who, WW)
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Hi Flwrchild,
Actually, I didn't say love had something to do with good looks... I'm saying that with Jack's good looks he would have attracted many lovers, many opportunities, not just Randall, who would have treated him better than Ennis. Out of that, many frienships and many loves would bloom, becasue Nature would take its course.
This would have given Jack many opportunities that he could have and should have told Ennis the possibility of and put the ball in Ennis's court to decide if he really wanted to lose Jack or be with him.
It doesn't mean Jack would stop loving Ennis. It means he would be very distracted and not always be available. Ennis needed to try that one on. Jack wouldn't have to say a word, Ennis would seek him out like he should.
Jack never found the confidence to play this last card, which would have been his best. So, Ennis never had to commit. They both began serving fear.
... a doomed love story, not a story about solutions and happy endings, which it could have been had they aligned with The Force.
Love is a force of nature, not a force of fear. They ran their relationship with fear. That's not love. That's not aligning with the Force.
Where are my Trekkies... remember?
May the Force be With You
The Force is nature's power of love and ease that allows life to roll at your feet in ecstacy. The opposite of love is not hate... it's fear.
When Jack and Ennis started trying to take the power away from The Force, by running their relationship on their fears, they were doomed. We have no power over The Force... we have choices. Jack was afraid to absolutely call Ennis on the carpet and make him decide between love and fear... and Ennis served his mortal homophobic fear.
that's not love. That's defying The Force. Yes, love is a Force of Nature and all we have to do is align to keep that protective power and loving guidance with us... we do that by accepting love...
...not do something else with it. It will win. They took their love and mangled it. That is not what Nature wants. If we mess with it, Nature shows us who's really in control... Nature. It took Jack, it took the love opportunity away. There's no mistake.
first Jack was in control... but he was open to serving love, he was aligned with The Force.
Ennis took control and challenged the Force, and chose to be ruled by Fear. Jack gave in to Ennis instead of maintaining his alignment with The Force. He aligned with fear and created fears of his own...
The Force, the great taskmaster, took Jack, the love opportunity. But It left the love. It always does.
Of course. That's why it's the Force, the most powerful entity in the Universe. Love is a gift from The Force and we are surrounded with opportunities. What do we choose to serve? The fears we create, or love?
Tender hearts, I am running out of steam, but I leave my love,
Tamlynn
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IMO:
Love's opposite is not fear, but indifference, and indifference is one thing these two men did not feel, only love. Ennis's fear is not the love for Jack, but the acceptance of himself.
To accept the Force, isn't it logical to accept oneself? To ease his fears, Ennis, had to accept the fact that he loved another man, but above all before he even could do that he had to accept himself, and this is a man who didn't even know how to love himself. Isn't acceptance of oneself is the first step to loving someone else?
Once Ennis did that he could see all of what Jack was trying to give him.
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Ennis and Jack seemed real enough to me, in the sense that both of them can hate each other as much as they love each other.
I do believe in the adage that the more you love someone, the greater the propensity to hate. Intense lov and intense hate go side by side. Indeed, indifference is the true opposite to love. When one becomes indifferent, we know that love is dead.
That's why I believe people who continue to hate past lovers reveal that they have not put their old loves aside.
I think Ennis and Jack understood how they loved each other -- even in the moments when they could not abide by each other's failings.
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If Jack had been given a second chance and had he lived, I woulder if the near loss of Jack would have been enough to push Ennis over the edge. I know this may sound a bit like the standard romance plot, but I do think Ennis would have reacted differently had he gone through a situation where he nearly lost Jack. Would knowledge of Jack and Randall have mattered to Ennis after that, I wonder? Probably not...
But Ennis didn't get a second chance, unfortunately. When he found out about Randall from John Twist, he seemed strangely muted. What did it matter then? All was lost...
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i was surprised when ennis was so calm when john twist told him about randall and jack but i never thought of it that way....i wish this movie would have a different turn...it could have been that jack lived but wanted to break up with ennis or that ennis finally see the importance of having jack in his life. anything but the current ending....i hate it that jack had to die. its just not fair. the show seemed unfinished...
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Lauren/tpe:
Love/hate, need, passion, denials, demands, are, I believe so magnified because of the isolation that Ennis impose, and Jack lived with. Ennis I think we can agree was far more emotionally vulnerable than Jack. He could have done what he threaten, or totally fall apart as he did in Jack's arms. What could have happened if the ending was different will always be a wonder, but I think we know enough information about these two to continue to speculate.
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i was surprised when ennis was so calm when john twist told him about randall and jack but i never thought of it that way....i wish this movie would have a different turn...it could have been that jack lived but wanted to break up with ennis or that ennis finally see the importance of having jack in his life. anything but the current ending....i hate it that jack had to die. its just not fair. the show seemed unfinished...
But I think it's more like real, life -- the ending, I mean. With Ennis as with Randall, Jack's death left things unresolved. So many thing sin life end up like this, in limbo. Ennis's muted reaction probably reflects the fact that now he has things in greater perspective. What is the point of anger whne he realizes how much he had lost?
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Lauren/tpe:
Love/hate, need, passion, denials, demands, are, I believe so magnified because of the isolation that Ennis impose, and Jack lived with. Ennis I think we can agree was far more emotionally vulnerable than Jack. He could have done what he threaten, or totally fall apart as he did in Jack's arms. What could have happened if the ending was different will always be a wonder, but I think we know enough information about these two to continue to speculate.
I do think their isolation intensified their reactions. And I have no doubt that had Jack lived and had Ennis found out about Randall, things may have ended differently, if not badly.
Ennis to me is not only emotionally vulnerable but also volatile. Her could swing between violent rage and emotional collapse. He probably regretted a lot of his actions in hindsight. Perhpas if he had time to think things over after he had found out about Randall and Jack, he would have been more deliberate in trying to save the relationship -- that is, if Jack had lived.
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Great discussion ! If I may add my 2 cents, I think they are both emotionally vulnerable, but in different senses. Jack by his emotional dilemma of not knowing how to "quit Ennis" , and not really wanting to, a situation he finds himself in that is painful yet uncontrollable. His heart was on the line here. His futile attempts to get Ennis to see things his way and not being able to convince Ennis to make it all permanant had to take a toll on his emotional well-being. The frustration he must have felt.To hear Ennis tell him that he could'nt take it anymore, IT, being the desperate attempts to come to terms with this rollercoaster ride of frustrating emotion deep inside his lover.
Ennis was having a tug of war on his soul. On one hand he was fighting a part of himself that would set him free, yet he was also ( judging by SNIT and the reunion scenes ,) hopelessly in love with Jack. Unable and unwilling to shake off his experience with Jack. Enter Randall: This *other lover* further symbolizes Jack's vulnerability. Although he could never really replace Ennis in Jack's heart he is an alternative to the lonliness and frustration Ennis offered him. Jack simply took what was offerd to him at the time.Jack needed something or someone to interject into this intense situation. Had Ennis and Randall met face to face, this may have been the thing that breaks the camel's back so to speak. His options would be narrowed considerably. He have to make a choice. Keep Jack or loose Jack to Randall. a man like Ennis , who has givin up so much to be with Jack would hate to loose.The question would become : If Randall could live with Jack, why can't I? This would be Ennis's ultimate wake up call. It would become a matter of pride though he'd already have the advantage....Jack loved , adored ,and wanted him above all else. My opinion.
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Well, said Aintfoolin... I believe all Ennis needed to motivate him to go after Jack with gusto would be to ALMOST LOSE JACK...
...and it wouldn't matter how... either near death or off with a new lover. Something to jolt Ennis off the fence, that safety zone of being sure Jack would always be there on Ennis's terms... 3 times a year on a short leash. He threw Jack crumbs to survive on. Only, Jack didn't survive.
Tamlynn
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Great discussion ! If I may add my 2 cents, I think they are both emotionally vulnerable, but in different senses. Jack by his emotional dilemma of not knowing how to "quit Ennis" , and not really wanting to, a situation he finds himself in that is painful yet uncontrollable. His heart was on the line here. His futile attempts to get Ennis to see things his way and not being able to convince Ennis to make it all permanant had to take a toll on his emotional well-being. The frustration he must have felt.To hear Ennis tell him that he could'nt take it anymore, IT, being the desperate attempts to come to terms with this rollercoaster ride of frustrating emotion deep inside his lover.
Ennis was having a tug of war on his soul. On one hand he was fighting a part of himself that would set him free, yet he was also ( judging by SNIT and the reunion scenes ,) hopelessly in love with Jack. Unable and unwilling to shake off his experience with Jack. Enter Randall: This *other lover* further symbolizes Jack's vulnerability. Although he could never really replace Ennis in Jack's heart he is an alternative to the lonliness and frustration Ennis offered him. Jack simply took what was offerd to him at the time.Jack needed something or someone to interject into this intense situation. Had Ennis and Randall met face to face, this may have been the thing that breaks the camel's back so to speak. His options would be narrowed considerably. He have to make a choice. Keep Jack or loose Jack to Randall. a man like Ennis , who has givin up so much to be with Jack would hate to loose.The question would become : If Randall could live with Jack, why can't I? This would be Ennis's ultimate wake up call. It would become a matter of pride though he'd already have the advantage....Jack loved , adored ,and wanted him above all else. My opinion.
I echo tamlynn's assessment, and I highlight the entire thing. Excellent distinction, aintfoolin.
I would simply add, after reading your post, that it would seem that Jack's vulnerability was rooted wwithout, whereas Ennis's was pulling from within
If Ennis would have found out about Randall, I suspect that that would be one instance where Ennis's vulnerability would be directly challenged from without. Perhaps he needed such a jolt. Jack's death was certainly a challenge of the same nature.
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I echo tamlynn's assessment, and I highlight the entire thing. Excellent distinction, aintfoolin.
I would simply add, after reading your post, that it would seem that Jack's vulnerability was rooted wwithout, whereas Ennis's was pulling from within
If Ennis would have found out about Randall, I suspect that that would be one instance where Ennis's vulnerability would be directly challenged from without. Perhaps he needed such a jolt. Jack's death was certainly a challenge of the same nature.
i totally agree....i wish the jolt had come before jack died. maybe they could at least enjoy a few moments of bliss before jack dies. now jack had to die, knowing that ennis can never be his and happiness is always one step ahead of him. forever out of reach....
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i totally agree....i wish the jolt had come before jack died. maybe they could at least enjoy a few moments of bliss before jack dies. now jack had to die, knowing that ennis can never be his and happiness is always one step ahead of him. forever out of reach....
Yes, even if both were to die by reason of living together, it would have been worth it. IMO. To quote Thoreau, we lead lives of "quiet desperation", and sometimes, the way out of it is to live it to the full, even if only for a brief moment. How their lives of quiet desperation would have been lifted, had they but known what it was to live a life of love.
Ennis should have recognized this sooner. Had he found out about Randall sooner, perhaps he would have indeed realized it.
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Yes, even if both were to die by reason of living together, it would have been worth it. IMO. To quote Thoreau, we lead lives of "quiet desperation", and sometimes, the way out of it is to live it to the full, even if only for a brief moment. How their lives of quiet desperation would have been lifted, had they but known what it was to live a life of love.
Ennis should have recognized this sooner. Had he found out about Randall sooner, perhaps he would have indeed realized it.
had he found out about randall sooner, maybe his reaction wouldn't be as nonchalant as when he found out after jack died. after all he said during their final meeting that the things he didn't know would get jack killed if he come to know of them. would he try to hurt jack if he really found out before that? finding out that the one person you really love is cheating on you is not news that you'll want to kiss and make up over....(in my opinion)
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had he found out about randall sooner, maybe his reaction wouldn't be as nonchalant as when he found out after jack died. after all he said during their final meeting that the things he didn't know would get jack killed if he come to know of them. would he try to hurt jack if he really found out before that? finding out that the one person you really love is cheating on you is not news that you'll want to kiss and make up over....(in my opinion)
KNowing about it after Jack died must have hurt more than angered Ennis. He had not yet found the shirts. Perhaps he thought that somehow, he was somehow responsible for Jack's death, as Edgar had noted in another thread. I cannot help thinking that feelings of guilt and remorse washed over Ennis in that instant. Anger was probably a moot thing to him at that point.
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I think Ennis would be mighty upset since a name and a face could be connected to Jack's giving up and moving on. I have to agree with you, Ennis was far too trapped by his fears to take a stand. How sad!
Well Ennis was mighty unhappy about Mexico so I think that having the knowledge of Randall would have brought on a fiercer reaction. Mexico was a bunch of nameless, faceless people whereas Randall was in close proximity to Jack, had a name and a face and was more of a threat. Seeing his reaction to all them things he don't know I could see Ennis being incredibly angry and hauling off and punching him. I think that hearing about Randall from Papa Twist was like a new knife plunged into his heart and that's what makes the shirts more impactful (to me). Do I think Ennis would have stopped traveling around the coffeepot and make his way to Texas? No. I'd like to think he would. I do think it would have made him stop and think though- that Jack was planning on getting his sweet life with or without Ennis. I think it would have been a wake up call of sorts for him.
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I think Ennis would be mighty upset since a name and a face could be connected to Jack's giving up and moving on. I have to agree with you, Ennis was far too trapped by his fears to take a stand. How sad!
Well said. There lies the difference...
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Mexicans ( unidentified) woud probably not seem very real to Ennis, who had never done any traveling - they're remote and vague.
Randall, on the other hand, has a local habitation and a name, and is therefore real and threatening.
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Mexicans ( unidentified) woud probably not seem very real to Ennis, who had never done any traveling - they're remote and vague.
Randall, on the other hand, has a local habitation and a name, and is therefore real and threatening.
Ansd Randall was even more threatening if he indeed was amenable to a sweet life...
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He also looks pretty big - taller than Jack/Jake. I know he'd been to university but I wonder if he was rough and tough under the city clothes?
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Randall physically bigger, perhaps younger, educated, and sexually perhaps more dominating and demanding than Ennis. Could Jack really resist being waned of by this man, who approached him, and not the other way around?
Jack wouldn't have to battle any more, but be taken away, and taken care of. Live the "sweet life". There comes a time when he has to decide, that one moment of twenty years ago, was just that, a moment. Jack lived twenty years on that one moment, and I guess decided it's time really start looking ahead.
When Jack was watching Ennis drive off that last time, maybe it was good bye. IMO.
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By not agreeing to live the sweet life Jack wanted, I think after a certain amount of time Ennis no longer held the cards as far as Jack was concerned, He handed them over by his insistence on giving into his denial and fear. It became Jack's choice with Randall. I feel it was Jack's private decision alone. He wanted Ennis, yes but he also wanted a whole life with someone...on a permanent basis. I feel he had proved his love and earned a life where he could share and control something solid and real in his life. Ennis just could'nt find it necessary to be there for him. Ennis thought he had it all sorted out and everything was going his way. There was a time for Jack and time for everything else thousands of miles away. Jack ,as Jack does found ( or at least was thinking about it) a way to survive. Did'nt go looking for Randall... Randall found him. I'm sure many times thought on his man up in Wyoming, his heart, but Randall was there. right there down the road. And wanting him sexually and maybe more than that. I could almost hear Jack rationalizing it all on that bench. Who can blame him for trying to find love and acceptance with this handsome ,willing cowboy? I don't.Until Ennis gets past his "boys like you" mindset, Jack can never happily live with Ennis before this attitude rears its ugly head again and Jack knew it.Randall did'nt seem to have that major problem. MO
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I think you're right; still, supposing that Jack had settled down somewhere with Randall, I wonder if before long he would have started to regret it? Depends on whether he needed Ennis more than sexually, I suppose. I often wonder what they talked about all those years - but then did Jack have any more in common with Randall?
If Ennis is tragic because he is trapped by his own unconquerable fears, I see Jack as tragic because he was never going to find a fulfilling relationship. Randall was probably going to be second-best.
Ennis I think would have simply retreated into his shell, perhaps even further than he did after Jack's death.
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Certainly right WW , Jack's story is tragic as he turns out to be fighting a loosing battle concerning his plans for he and Ennis. He loved him, but Jack failed to understand that he could not change Ennis in the way he so desperatly wanted to. He could only propose scenarios to Ennis then wish and hope Ennis will latch on to the idea of a committment . ( a sweet life, or just more time with him) It is something Ennis has to do on his own. It has to be true to Ennis himself. He must before he can make Jack truly happy. Ennis's conflicts are from within himself. It is he who has to accept who he is in order to fully accept Jack.. He cannot be *forced* into admitting someting he's not ready to accept. Not good in the long run. Jack is gay. Ennis loves Jack. Jack loves Ennis . Ennis must admit they are the same. You can't fool Mother Nature as the saying goes. but Ennis was just foolng himself. Jack was'nt dumb. He must have seen Randall's progressive manner. He was on his way to making something out of his college degree, an Animal Husbandry major. Jack perhaps considered all this. Had to compare what he faced with Ennis. Don;t get me wrong here though Jack was'nt totally about the money so much as he was wanting a normal full life. How lucky was Jack to come upon some one who could fit like a puzzle peice into his own desires as a rancher? Jack knows about as much about Randall as Randall knows about Jack . Their commonality was a knowledge of big business dealings which further fits into Jack's plans as well as a common acceptance of the *secret* life's strategy. Jack made expensive deals in Newsomes's business, and Randall was already chosen to be the foreman on this Roy Taylor's large ranch. Apparently Randall got *perks* such as use of the guy's cabin so he had to be on good terms with this "good ol boy" Taylor.They both felt comfortable around people, high-end business types, unlike Ennis who loathed social interaction. This relationship had potential imo. Had Ennis known about this relationship earlier, I think he would have givin a little more thought to his insisitence on pushing Jack away....straight into the arms of Randall.All this being said ,the question still remains: Could Jack and Ennis finally let go of what they had? We can only speculate on this mystery I'm afraid. Who knows? My thoughts.
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Ennis was in love with a man, and could never get pass that point, but would see Jack a couple of times a year because he love him, and needed to be with him, but only in the mountains, isolated, away from the world. Ennis would shoot down any idea of living together, but would kill Jack if ever had an idea of moving on with someone else. Ennis's fear was totally of himself and his inability to deal with it. Ennis above all else had to accept himself to be able to build a life with Jack.
To be able to handle Randall or anyone he considered a threat to his relationship with Jack, he had be sure of himself, and he just wasn't able or capable, but if he did that there would no threat to their relationship, or ever a thought of a treat. They were deeply in love and nothing could come between that or them. IMO.
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Interesting posts, both of you. One thing that crosses my mind is to wonder why Ennis never apparently considered the likelihood of Jack's being approached by, never mond attracted to, another man. If you love someone, at least in the early stages you tend to go through the "How could anyone so wonderful love someone like me?" thing. Given how self-evidently attractive Jack is ( as represented by Jake - he's less so in the ss) it seesm soemwht egotistical or plain unimaginative of Ennis never to have considered the possibility.
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It just occured to me while writing a response in another thread that we should not lose sight of all the motivations behind Jack's decision to move on.
Jack probably thought that Ennis suffered too much because of his love for Jack -- this was evident in the last meeting. Part of the motivation in Jack wanting to moving on was probably to free Ennis from the pain and the conflict that consumed him.
In this light, I wonder if Ennis would have reacted by gradually being reconciled to life without Jack.
I am not saying that Ennis or Jack would cease to love each other. I just wonder whether both would come to an understanding of a "separate peace".
Perhaps in his heart of hearts, Jack thought that this was for the best, and that he believed that Ennis wanted it to.
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So you're saying "If you love someone, set them free"? Are you saying then that Jack feels enough in tune with Ennis's contradictions and complications to realise that he would in the end accept loneliness and isolation as prefereable to the turbulence their relationship caused? I might agree except that twenty years seems a long time to have gone on with the relationship befrore deciding this. There would have to be a prcipitating factor - would that be the combination of Randall's appearance coupled with Ennis's increasing reluctance to arrange meetings?
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So you're saying "If you love someone, set them free"? Are you saying then that Jack feels enough in tune with Ennis's contradictions and complications to realise that he would in the end accept loneliness and isolation as prefereable to the turbulence their relationship caused? I might agree except that twenty years seems a long time to have gone on with the relationship befrore deciding this. There would have to be a prcipitating factor - would that be the combination of Randall's appearance coupled with Ennis's increasing reluctance to arrange meetings?
I was thinking more of the scenario where Ennis would have inevitably reconciled himself to losing Jack, even though I doubt that they would stop loving each other. This is a probable reaction that we had not really discussed. Would Ennis perhaps had been relieved to have the pressure taken away?
It was clear from the last meeting that Ennis was hurting deep inside. When does the balanace tip? How much hurt can be withstood before the threshold is crossed and separation becomes worth considering?
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Could it even be that if he knew about Randall, after the immediate reaction, which mught be fury, jealousy, whatever, Ennis might actually, and perhaps secretly, feel some sense of relief? Not that he wanted to be without Jack but that all the conflicts and demands would come to an end if Jack and he were no longer in the same relationship.
And going on from that, could they have moved into a non-sexual relationship aand remained friends? It's possible, specially if you live a long way apart anyway.
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Could it even be that if he knew about Randall, after the immediate reaction, which mught be fury, jealousy, whatever, Ennis might actually, and perhaps secretly, feel some sense of relief? Not that he wanted to be without Jack but that all the conflicts and demands would come to an end if Jack and he were no longer in the same relationship.
And going on from that, could they have moved into a non-sexual relationship aand remained friends? It's possible, specially if you live a long way apart anyway.
This is what I was thinking. Is there a part of Ennis who wanted things to be this way?
Could some of you see this?
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This is what I was thinking. Is there a part of Ennis who wanted things to be this way?
Could some of you see this?
IMO:
The love and desire, Ennis had or Jack outweighted the conflict and demands. Ennis was willing to endure the hardships that relationship brought both of them to still have Jack. He was used to hardship, doing without. Jack was not used to this, if he couldn't have Ennis, he'd go to Mexico. That is why Randall becomes a factor and a strong one. This could tip the scale of this relationship in a way Alma and Cassie couldn't.
A nonsexual relationship is not possible any more, that possibility ended SNIT and the years of the intimate
life they shared together. Wounds real or image run too deep, the trust, the need, the love and the sex all too intense, binding. And Ennis more than Jack, would have a hard time with this, like the reunion, Ennis couldn't control himself when he saw Jack, and I don't think Jack would stop him.
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It is always heard to move on in a relationship, and this is why I had thought that Jack's decision might have been something that also hurt him deeply. Thre more so with Ennis, since he had not made this descision consciously. If part of him wanted out, it probably was balanced out by the overriding need to be apart of Jack's life, no matter how small. But I recognize that it never be just a friendship. They had gone in too deeply with one another, and I also cannot see it settling into something aloof and nonsexual.
But I still wonder... Perhaps Jack's decision to move on would have made Ennis make a second mistake of marrying Cassie. Or would it have pushed Ennis to go back into the closet, shall we say?
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I don't know about marrying Cassie, though she was obviously pretty committed to Ennis. But I do think he'd have gone back into the closet never to emerge again if Jack had left him.
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I don't know about marrying Cassie, though she was obviously pretty committed to Ennis. But I do think he'd have gone back into the closet never to emerge again if Jack had left him.
Would he have done this as part of an attempted repudiation of Jack and everything he supoosedly stood for? I doubt that he would be that successful, but the way he ended up at the end of the movie was pretty close to this, no? Except that his opening up to Alma Jr. hinted on a bit of hope for his future.
I guess the main point is that Ennis would have imploded had Jack left him -- i.e., withdraw further into himself.
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If Jack had abandoned Ennis for Randall, and possibly set up on a ranch with him, I think Ennis would have thought the equivalent of "Game over" and given up, as indeed he was forced to at the end of the movie. His opening up to Alma Jr was a proof of his greater emotional openness but doesn't tell us anything about his acceptance ( or lack of it) of his own sexuality.
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IMO:
Ennis would have definately emotionally implode. There's no getting around that. Ennis was too emotionally fragile to be able to stand that outcome.
Death is the ending you have to deal with. But if Jack just went to Randall, Ennis would have not or could not handle this. We've seen Ennis make great pronouncements of how things were to go, how his affair with Jack was to conducted, where, when, etc. but he could never follow his own rules, he broke under the weight of them. He would say to Jack "to hell with you" and then quitely, alone, way out in the middle of nowhere and fall apart.
And like tpe impies, withdraw into himself.
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IMO:
Ennis would have definately emotionally implode. There's no getting around that. Ennis was too emotionally fragile to be able to stand that outcome.
Death is the ending you have to deal with. But if Jack just went to Randall, Ennis would have not or could not handle this. We've seen Ennis make great pronouncements of how things were to go, how his affair with Jack was to conducted, where, when, etc. but he could never follow his own rules, he broke under the weight of them. He would say to Jack "to hell with you" and then quitely, alone, way out in the middle of nowhere and fall apart.
And like tpe impies, withdraw into himself.
If he would have reacted this way and if Jack realized this, I wonder if Jack would have had the will and desire proceed with his plans. Could he have borne seeing Ennis this way? If Jack would have seen how Ennis mourned for him...
My feeling is that what saved them in the last meeting was that Jack could not bear to see Ennis crumble before his eyes. Had Jack lived and had Ennis sought him out, could Jack have resisted, when he knows that Ennis would have been completely devastated?
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If he would have reacted this way and if Jack realized this, I wonder if Jack would have had the will and desire proceed with his plans. Could he have borne seeing Ennis this way? If Jack would have seen how Ennis mourned for him...
My feeling is that what saved them in the last meeting was that Jack could not bear to see Ennis crumble before his eyes. Had Jack lived and had Ennis sought him out, could Jack have resisted, when he knows that Ennis would have been completely devastated?
tpe, you ask this question with a condition. Could Jack resist Ennis, knowing this would devastate him. First Ennis even going to Texas is a feat. WOW, if this not a loaded question. The only way I could answer this is that Jack had to get to a point after twenty years of Ennis, if his own self preservation is more important to him then knowing his rejection of Ennis could destroy him. This may be a cold move, but it comes down to one thing, you have to know when to save your own life.
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It would also be cold if Jack just let Ennis *stew for a while . I agree with you MG. If Jack could show Ennis in some way that he was not gonna just sit around wringing his hands and waiting, wishing and hoping. maybe he'll get an answer to his devastating dilema. He knows that he has to make life happen. But he knows Ennis's past and does'nt want to be the one opening old wounds for him, Did'nt want to be the one rejecting Ennis and having Ennis crawl back inside his little cocoon. He loved him too much to do that. yet, no one is getting any younger here. Goodness knows Jack has suffered some doozys in the rejection department here. It is now his turn. His time. It's not that he wants it this way but it's his choice now. He loves Ennis, He's waited almost 20 years for a progression of this relationship. Some say "all is fair in love and war" but this hurts. I think this is where Jack was at when he laid Ennis out with words in that last meeting. He had spared Ennis a sense of reponsibility for too long. Sought Ennis out after 4 years apart,Knew his fears, his rsponsibilites to his children. Braved Alma, drove thousands of miles year after lonely year just to have a little peice of time with the man he loved so deeply. and what does he get? a few high altitude f--cks a couple times a year? No no Jack deserved so much more than this . Though he loved Ennis and no doubt always will, but Jack found *more bulls to ride*, more fish in the sea, so to speak. and just happened upon one who wanted him, all of him and gave Jack ,for once ,the choice to accept or reject. Again, I cannot find blame for what Jack did. I agree it took death to wake Ennis up but why? He had to realize before he found those shirts that Jack had done his part. He'd left no doubts about the way he felt about Ennis. Just as Ennis felt Jack belonged to him alone concerning Mexico, Jack expected the same strong sense of commitment from Ennis. To their love affair. If they were in love and Ennis has said aint no reins on this one ..ONE being Jack and the one relationship, ONE love, then what the heck is Jack to think when Ennis won't make a permanant life with him? Comon Ennis actions speak louder than words in this case,There never is going to be another love like this for Ennis am I correct? Randall would have been, with time and patience. What would Ennis say if Jack told Ennis ( in a letter form for safety concerns!)" I love you more than anything , you know that. we can't go on hurting each other like this. I've made my feelings known. You know what I want for us. If you can't bring yourself to do this with me Ennis then I feel we have no choice but to move on with our lives. Try to find happiness with someone else. I can't stand this anymore either. Don't ever wanna hurt you and I'll always love you but these separations just hurts both of us too much. Ennis, I've met someone else, nothing serious yet, but well it could be......etc. Then see what Ennis does then. It would speak volumes. Just a tool for Jack to use to get answers.... maybe the one he wants. To hear Jack actually say it, and to know there is someone waiting in the wings to take over where he left off just might do the trick. Sorry so long but the passion over takes me. My thoughts.
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No, No, no apologies needed, I feel the same way, but why shouldn't Jack look out for him self, look twenty years of loving someone becomes a part of you, like your arm, or leg. But when it comes a time when it has to be cut off in order to save your life, what would be the right choice? You learn to adjust to the loss and move on, and live.
You're right they are not getting younger, and Jack's has someone, Randall, who looks interested in a life and love, without the constant battle of commitment. Randall seems to prize Jack, and his love without the fear that hung over Jack and Ennis.
And why should Ennis reaction should always come into play. Jack has to look out for Jack. He gave all of his life to Ennis. Ennis was so caught up in his own hangs up, to notice what Jack wanted to give him, and if he did, it still wasn't enough for him to change.
Jack would be skiddish with Ennis, he wouldn't be able to trust totally his commitment to him, this is where Ennis has to do the work build trust in Jack, can he do it, how long would it take for the old fears kick in again?. After all Ennis did have a low startle point.
IMO.
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tpe, you ask this question with a condition. Could Jack resist Ennis, knowing this would devastate him. First Ennis even going to Texas is a feat. WOW, if this not a loaded question. The only way I could answer this is that Jack had to get to a point after twenty years of Ennis, if his own self preservation is more important to him then knowing his rejection of Ennis could destroy him. This may be a cold move, but it comes down to one thing, you have to know when to save your own life.
Thanks manhattangirl and aintfoolin for sharing your thoughts about this.
I did think that Jack had made up his "mind" to make a separate peace. But as far as the "heart" is concerned, I am less sure that he was that determined. It still naggs me: the likeliness that Jack would cave in if he comes face to face with an emotionally devastated Ennis.
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Exactly MG, Why should Jack have to walk on eggshells for the rest of his life with/or without Ennis , Ennis feelings I'm sure would be taken into consideration , but Jack should not have to consider how Ennis feels about this and that every time Jack makes a major life changing decision. J ack has to get to that point somehow *weaning* himself off of Ennis's control. Probably pinch himself to make sure that he is free to make his own choices as he's been dancing to Ennis's music for SO long. Hopefully he will have thought all this through and weighed the consequences for his actions , before hooking up with Randall, then come to a solid conclusion about who and what he, himself alone wants. Maybe he'll choose neither and have his own ranch. I'd like to see his happiness count, but sadly we never will. Does'nt stop us from dreaming about what could have been though. Again it is his decision to make and no one else's. He's the one who has to live with the decision. Not easy mind you,.. but possible.
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It would also be cold if Jack just let Ennis *stew for a while . I agree with you MG. If Jack could show Ennis in some way that he was not gonna just sit around wringing his hands and waiting, wishing and hoping. maybe he'll get an answer to his devastating dilema. He knows that he has to make life happen. But he knows Ennis's past and does'nt want to be the one opening old wounds for him, Did'nt want to be the one rejecting Ennis and having Ennis crawl back inside his little cocoon. He loved him too much to do that. yet, no one is getting any younger here. Goodness knows Jack has suffered some doozys in the rejection department here. It is now his turn. His time. It's not that he wants it this way but it's his choice now. He loves Ennis, He's waited almost 20 years for a progression of this relationship. Some say "all is fair in love and war" but this hurts. I think this is where Jack was at when he laid Ennis out with words in that last meeting. He had spared Ennis a sense of reponsibility for too long. Sought Ennis out after 4 years apart,Knew his fears, his rsponsibilites to his children. Braved Alma, drove thousands of miles year after lonely year just to have a little peice of time with the man he loved so deeply. and what does he get? a few high altitude f--cks a couple times a year? No no Jack deserved so much more than this . Though he loved Ennis and no doubt always will, but Jack found *more bulls to ride*, more fish in the sea, so to speak. and just happened upon one who wanted him, all of him and gave Jack ,for once ,the choice to accept or reject. Again, I cannot find blame for what Jack did. I agree it took death to wake Ennis up but why? He had to realize before he found those shirts that Jack had done his part. He'd left no doubts about the way he felt about Ennis. Just as Ennis felt Jack belonged to him alone concerning Mexico, Jack expected the same strong sense of commitment from Ennis. To their love affair. If they were in love and Ennis has said aint no reins on this one ..ONE being Jack and the one relationship, ONE love, then what the heck is Jack to think when Ennis won't make a permanant life with him? Comon Ennis actions speak louder than words in this case,There never is going to be another love like this for Ennis am I correct? Randall would have been, with time and patience. What would Ennis say if Jack told Ennis ( in a letter form for safety concerns!)" I love you more than anything , you know that. we can't go on hurting each other like this. I've made my feelings known. You know what I want for us. If you can't bring yourself to do this with me Ennis then I feel we have no choice but to move on with our lives. Try to find happiness with someone else. I can't stand this anymore either. Don't ever wanna hurt you and I'll always love you but these separations just hurts both of us too much. Ennis, I've met someone else, nothing serious yet, but well it could be......etc. Then see what Ennis does then. It would speak volumes. Just a tool for Jack to use to get answers.... maybe the one he wants. To hear Jack actually say it, and to know there is someone waiting in the wings to take over where he left off just might do the trick. Sorry so long but the passion over takes me. My thoughts.
I do agree that there is a seeming finality with Jack's decision to move on -- as if to tell Ennis that he himself would have to act in order for things to stay together.
But I cannot help feeling trhis to be a last despearate cry of help from Jack. AS discussed elsewhere, perhaps Jack wanted to force Ennis into a decision.
But I think hidden underneath all this is the felling that Jack did this half hoping that Ennis would not let him go away. This is why I feel that Jack may have made up his "mind" on what has to be done, and yet the "heart" many times does not follow where the "mind" leads.
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In a way it's a pity Jack didn't go ahead with part of his plans and leave Lureen, get a divorce and set up on his father's land or somewhere else. After that at least Ennis would see that Jack was free of his entanglement with Lureen as he( Ennis) had been of his with Alma. Alma Jr was an adult and the other girl almost so - at that point Ennis could have had a straight decision to make. That scenario, of course, would have involved Jack in cutting himself free of everyone, including Randall, and leaving himself dependent on Ennis's choice, perhaps a step too far for him?
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I don't think Jack would have been able to leave Lureen to set up on his father's land. Aside from Randdal, it's because he is a sociable type, I think he needs to be with someone, to live with someone. Even if it's Lureen (at least she brings money and a materially comfortable life). I don't think he would have taken the risk to go back to live with his father (especially knowing how is his father), without being sure that Ennis would have come with him. Moreover we know that he used to say that he would comme with Ennis to his parents ranch, so coming alone would have make his father treating him like a looser even more. And I don't think Jack wanted it.
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tpe, ainfoolin,
Thanks so much for your thoughts you got thinking. It may prove true for someone in this situation like Jack and Ennis, that no matter what happened between them that the love though never verbally expressed definitely exsisted. But concerning our discussion Ennis would have to understand that Randall even Jack's trips to Mexico was a direct result of his stubbornness for not moving the relationship to the next step after twenty years. Ainfoolin you're right about Jack's proof of his love for staying in this affair for so long, following the rules Ennis put down, Jack always went to him, loved him, and return back Texas, until Ennis wanted him again.
Jack had come to a point, when he said "I wish I knew how to quit you", Ennis had to understand that it was time to change, he couldn't continue to have Jack on these terms, Ennis had to decide, and Jack not returning to Brokeback is the only way for Ennis to realize what he had and what he lost.
Ennis going to Jack, actually gettin in that beat up truck and driving there, would have shown to himself that his only fear was not being found out, but not having Jack again. Jack would have seen for the first time just how much this man loved him, Ennis was there on his door step, with his hat in his hand.
Maybe just maybe, this would have been enough for Jack. Jack could never turn Ennis away, this would have made it impossible.
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I don't think Jack would have been able to leave Lureen to set up on his father's land. Aside from Randdal, it's because he is a sociable type, I think he needs to be with someone, to live with someone. Even if it's Lureen (at least she brings money and a materially comfortable life). I don't think he would have taken the risk to go back to live with his father (especially knowing how is his father), without being sure that Ennis would have come with him. Moreover we know that he used to say that he would comme with Ennis to his parents ranch, so coming alone would have make his father treating him like a looser even more. And I don't think Jack wanted it.
That is a good point: it would seem that Jack needed to be with someone, and that perhaps his return to LF was dependent on someone coming back with him.
Jack's intention to a move to LF with Randall should send a clear message to Ennis: that Jack would not abide to live without his dream of a life with someone he can love and be loved in return. Perhpas Jack had hoped that Ennis's reaction would be tempered by understanding how important this was to Jack, and so Jack perhaps had hoped that Ennis would finally give in when he realizes that losing Jack was a possibility.
Could Jack have calculated all this? He must have anticipated a number of reactions from Ennis, and he probably concluded that this was the best way to make Ennis realize that the sweet life was not something he would compromise on for the rest of his life.
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tpe, ainfoolin,
Thanks so much for your thoughts you got thinking. It may prove true for someone in this situation like Jack and Ennis, that no matter what happened between them that the love though never verbally expressed definitely exsisted. But concerning our discussion Ennis would have to understand that Randall even Jack's trips to Mexico was a direct result of his stubbornness for not moving the relationship to the next step after twenty years. Ainfoolin you're right about Jack's proof of his love for staying in this affair for so long, following the rules Ennis put down, Jack always went to him, loved him, and return back Texas, until Ennis wanted him again.
Jack had come to a point, when he said "I wish I knew how to quit you", Ennis had to understand that it was time to change, he couldn't continue to have Jack on these terms, Ennis had to decide, and Jack not returning to Brokeback is the only way for Ennis to realize what he had and what he lost.
Ennis going to Jack, actually gettin in that beat up truck and driving there, would have shown to himself that his only fear was not being found out, but not having Jack again. Jack would have seen for the first time just how much this man loved him, Ennis was there on his door step, with his hat in his hand.
Maybe just maybe, this would have been enough for Jack. Jack could never turn Ennis away, this would have made it impossible.
Thanks manhattangirl . I think you confirmed the central point of my last post: that Jack was trying to make Ennis understand that the choice was his to make. Eliciting a reaction from Ennis by taking the extreme step of moving on with someone else was Jack's intenst, IMO. I guess Jack didn't care eny more what shape or form this reaction may take -- he NEEDED Ennis to react in order to make Ennis himself understand what was at stake because of his stubbornness.