Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com

The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: tpe on Apr 15, 2006, 02:01 PM

Title: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 15, 2006, 02:01 PM
This subject has been floating around for a while now, vaguely hinted at in some older threads, and nearly implied in others.

Perhaps the most convincing argument I have seen in the story is the passage where John Twist is telling Ennis that Jack planned to divorce Lureen and move back with the Texas ranch neighbor.  Immediately after this passage, the story proceeds to say that at that point Ennis then knew it was the tire iron that killed Jack.

Some have taken this as a reference to Ennis assuming that Jack was murdered because of the impending divorce with Lureen.  It is indeed strange that Proulx would have Ennis come to this realization (i.e., that Jack was murdered) as a consequence of John Twist's revelation of Jack's intended plans to move back.

I do not have a copy of the online version of the story, but someone with access to one can reference this passage in question.

This also lends support to some interpretations of Lureen's bitter last words to Ennis over the phone: 'I suppose they [i.e., Jack's parents] would be pleased if his wishes were carried out, about the ashes, I mean.' (I paraphrase from memory.)

Some have interpreted this as a double edged sword.  Lureen having to clarify that 'his wishes' pertained to 'the ashes' implies that 'his wishes' could be interpreted in another way.  The implication of course, is that Lureen, having realized at that point who Ennis really was, mockingly asked him to get in touch with Jack's folks, so that the ashes can finally come ot the possession of the one person that Jack wished to be united with in death: Ennis.

I do not have a particularly strong opinion for or against this interpretation.  But I would be interested in your thoughts...


Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: LuvJackNasty on Apr 15, 2006, 02:47 PM
My friend and I were discussing this just this morning! A friend of hers just saw BBM for the first time and she said that her friend feels Lureen had Jack killed because she knew he liked men and that Randall was a set up. My friend believes that as well. They both cited Lureen being sarcastic with Jack about men never wanting to dance with their wives. My interpretation is that I do feel Lureen had some hint of the true Jack. I think Randall was just a guy in the same boat as Ennis and Jack and that just because he referenced whiskey and fishing wasn't necessarily a hint but rather it was just the thing to do. Besides, there were a few years between the proposition and Jack's death. I told her we don't know what happened- it could be so many things- he could have been caught with Randall, he could have propostioned the wrong person etc. That's part of the beauty of this story- we become Ennis in not knowing the truth- only having our minds racing with so many possibilities.

I never thought of it as having Jack's ashes be united with the person he wished to be with in death before. I believe Lureen knows the true nature of Jack's death {murder} but I flip flop as to wether or not she had a hand in it. Most of me believes that she didn't. I also waver on the comment about the ashes. She was bitter sounding but there is a part of me that thinks that she was trying to give Ennis some closure as there was some part of her that did love Jack even then. But reading your post has my mind going in another direction. That in realizing who Ennis was this was almost an act of cruelty on her part- to let him be hurt like she was hurt. If that was her intention- to hurt Ennis in letting him find out about the ranch neighbor- it backfired because Ennis found the shirts and knew beyond any doubt his place in Jack's life and heart.

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 15, 2006, 03:09 PM
Thanks LuvJackNasty.  There is still so much in the story that is open to interpretation.  That's why it is so powerful...

 
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: ethan on Apr 15, 2006, 05:23 PM
Like LuvJackNasty, I also believe that Jack was murdered. But how?

The least possibility I would like to think of is Lureen's involvement to have Jack killed. Could she have really turned from her love to hate and have Jack killed? I really hope not.

IF Lureen did know Jack died because of homophobia, it seems Lureen's cruelty to Ennis is realistic. She had realized that the man she had spent almost 20 years of her lives was not her love.

Ennis was.

I tend to believe this movie is complex love situations - they all happened in the wrong place and wrong time that made BBM a such tragic love story.
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 15, 2006, 05:42 PM
I tend to believe this movie is complex love situations

This is why we are here: to appreciate and be moved.

Thanks Ethan.  :)

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: shieldmaid on Apr 15, 2006, 06:10 PM
Wow, I never considered the possibility that Lureen might have had something to do with Jack's death . . . I don't want to think that she did, though, not my favorite interpretation.  After all, she does seem grieved in the phone call with Ennis (the small sounds she makes, for instance).
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Patriot1 on Apr 15, 2006, 06:16 PM
Wow, I never considered the possibility that Lureen might have had something to do with Jack's death . . . I don't want to think that she did, though, not my favorite interpretation.  After all, she does seem grieved in the phone call with Ennis (the small sounds she makes, for instance).

Sweetheart, those "small sounds" you hear her make are not for Jack, they are for herself.  She just found out she is talking to her husbands lover and first true love.

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: shieldmaid on Apr 15, 2006, 06:20 PM
Wow, I never considered the possibility that Lureen might have had something to do with Jack's death . . . I don't want to think that she did, though, not my favorite interpretation.  After all, she does seem grieved in the phone call with Ennis (the small sounds she makes, for instance).

Sweetheart, those "small sounds" you hear her make are not for Jack, they are for herself.  She just found out she is talking to her husbands lover and first true love.



sorry, I still interpret these sounds as pain of some kind--even indicating that she realizes Ennis was Jack's true love suggests that it hurts that she wasn't.  I think she did care about Jack a little in the end, at least.
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: chameau on Apr 15, 2006, 06:21 PM
Wow, I never considered the possibility that Lureen might have had something to do with Jack's death . . . I don't want to think that she did, though, not my favorite interpretation.  After all, she does seem grieved in the phone call with Ennis (the small sounds she makes, for instance).

Sweetheart, those "small sounds" you hear her make are not for Jack, they are for herself.  She just found out she is talking to her husbands lover and first true love.



I agree with Patriot1, maybe she was suspecting about her husband's secret life but she got the confirmation from Ennis phone call, it's not only "small sounds", she got teary eyes too. 
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: edgar on Apr 16, 2006, 10:43 PM
I think Lureen definitely knows Jack was murdered. The way she repeats the rote story... And the way the movie shows the flashes of the murder, those must come from Lureen's head, yes? Certainly not from Ennis's head, at this point.

I don't see Lureen as mean enough to set up the murder.

Her evil dad is dead by this time, but what about some of his relatives?

Otherwise, it's just another impromptu hate crime like the one Ennis tells about when he was nine.
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Valandil Eluch on Apr 17, 2006, 12:35 AM
i can really say she was not on that
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Patriot1 on Apr 17, 2006, 12:54 AM
...And the way the movie shows the flashes of the murder, those must come from Lureen's head, yes? Certainly not from Ennis's head, at this point.

Why do you think they can't come from Ennis' head Edgar?

He is the one standing there thinking and not saying a word, to the point where she had to say "hello" several times before the images stopped and he "woke up".

I was sure they came from Ennis.

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: TwoSkins on Apr 17, 2006, 11:28 AM
I knew in the theater, as soon as Laureen told Ennis, I had a strong hunch that because of Jack's new relationship with Randall, Laureen Somehow knew and had Jack killed - My wife even yelled at me cause we were in the theater and I yelled out "she killed him"...
Very difficult scene to witness!
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: dirtbiker on Apr 17, 2006, 11:48 AM
Such is the richness of this movie, opening so many scenes to individual interpretation.  As someone mentioned in a review a while back,  in a split second, Lureen had to decide to either treat the person who stole her husband's heart with kindness/compassion or contempt.  I think she treated Ennis somewhere in between.  On the one hand, she wanted to treat him with kindness, but her bitterness foreshadowed that.  I don't think she was capable of having Jack killed though.  I think the story about the flat tire was a cover-up for the disgrace she felt of her husband being lynched for who he was.
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Valandil Eluch on Apr 17, 2006, 01:37 PM
that is so true that story was a cover the more i think about the more i believe that was a queer bash because then it what would be the point of this story it was about homophobia he was definetaly killed.
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 17, 2006, 01:45 PM
I do think it was a wonderful touch that the scene showing Jack being murdered is left ambiguous -- as the original story does.

Homophobia is definitely at the heart of the murder, if you indeed accept that he was murdered (as Hathaway herself implied in the Oprah interview).

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Toadily on Apr 17, 2006, 01:49 PM
I don't think Lureen would do that personally.  I think she was just oblivious for a long time, not in
a hate mode really.  I think Jack was found out due to this affair with the rancher and then word
got around and some drunk red necks killed him.
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Patriot1 on Apr 17, 2006, 02:36 PM
I do think it was a wonderful touch that the scene showing Jack being murdered is left ambiguous -- as the original story does.

Homophobia is definitely at the heart of the murder, if you indeed accept that he was murdered (as Hathaway herself implied in the Oprah interview).

I don't think there is any need to imply anything.  The movie credits say there was an assailant.  The scene was cut. Ang Lee said the whole sequence of the murder was filmed but he couldn't find a place to put it so it was dropped.  The original trailer showed 2 of the guys that killed him. Also, I know I do things differently from other people, but, I would have put the tire on the truck and then pumped it up.  It surely couldn't have blown off of the truck and hit him in the face. Not with 5 lug nuts holding it on.  And, even if he was pumping up the tire with it laying on the ground, you stand up to pump up a tire with a tire pump, generally, with one foot on the pump holding it down.  The tire would have had to fly up 5 and a half to 6 feet to hit him in the face.

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: dirtbiker on Apr 17, 2006, 02:44 PM
I do think it was a wonderful touch that the scene showing Jack being murdered is left ambiguous -- as the original story does.

Homophobia is definitely at the heart of the murder, if you indeed accept that he was murdered (as Hathaway herself implied in the Oprah interview).

I don't think there is any need to imply anything.  The movie credits say there was an assailant.  The scene was cut. Ang Lee said the whole sequence of the murder was filmed but he couldn't find a place to put it so it was dropped.  The original trailer showed 2 of the guys that killed him. Also, I know I do things differently from other people, but, I would have put the tire on the truck and then pumped it up.  It surely couldn't have blown off of the truck and hit him in the face. Not with 5 lug nuts holding it on.  And, even if he was pumping up the tire with it laying on the ground, you stand up to pump up a tire with a tire pump, generally, with one foot on the pump holding it down.  The tire would have had to fly up 5 and a half to 6 feet to hit him in the face.



It wasn't the tire though... She said "the rim of the tire" ;)
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Valandil Eluch on Apr 17, 2006, 02:44 PM
 :o :o :o :o you are always on every detail patriot!!!!  thanks!!!
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 17, 2006, 02:56 PM
I do think it was a wonderful touch that the scene showing Jack being murdered is left ambiguous -- as the original story does.

Homophobia is definitely at the heart of the murder, if you indeed accept that he was murdered (as Hathaway herself implied in the Oprah interview).

I don't think there is any need to imply anything.  The movie credits say there was an assailant.  The scene was cut. Ang Lee said the whole sequence of the murder was filmed but he couldn't find a place to put it so it was dropped.  The original trailer showed 2 of the guys that killed him. Also, I know I do things differently from other people, but, I would have put the tire on the truck and then pumped it up.  It surely couldn't have blown off of the truck and hit him in the face. Not with 5 lug nuts holding it on.  And, even if he was pumping up the tire with it laying on the ground, you stand up to pump up a tire with a tire pump, generally, with one foot on the pump holding it down.  The tire would have had to fly up 5 and a half to 6 feet to hit him in the face.

Yes, very well said.

I know some people though who would say that the murder never happened and that it was just all in Ennis's head -- or some such ambiguity.

I personally think that he was murdered.  IMO, the assailant is indeed real, and not just a figment of Ennis's imagination.

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Patriot1 on Apr 17, 2006, 03:08 PM
I do think it was a wonderful touch that the scene showing Jack being murdered is left ambiguous -- as the original story does.

Homophobia is definitely at the heart of the murder, if you indeed accept that he was murdered (as Hathaway herself implied in the Oprah interview).

I don't think there is any need to imply anything.  The movie credits say there was an assailant.  The scene was cut. Ang Lee said the whole sequence of the murder was filmed but he couldn't find a place to put it so it was dropped.  The original trailer showed 2 of the guys that killed him. Also, I know I do things differently from other people, but, I would have put the tire on the truck and then pumped it up.  It surely couldn't have blown off of the truck and hit him in the face. Not with 5 lug nuts holding it on.  And, even if he was pumping up the tire with it laying on the ground, you stand up to pump up a tire with a tire pump, generally, with one foot on the pump holding it down.  The tire would have had to fly up 5 and a half to 6 feet to hit him in the face.



It wasn't the tire though... She said "the rim of the tire" ;)

I don't understand your point dirtbiker.


Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Patriot1 on Apr 17, 2006, 03:25 PM
I do think it was a wonderful touch that the scene showing Jack being murdered is left ambiguous -- as the original story does.

Homophobia is definitely at the heart of the murder, if you indeed accept that he was murdered (as Hathaway herself implied in the Oprah interview).

I don't think there is any need to imply anything.  The movie credits say there was an assailant.  The scene was cut. Ang Lee said the whole sequence of the murder was filmed but he couldn't find a place to put it so it was dropped.  The original trailer showed 2 of the guys that killed him. Also, I know I do things differently from other people, but, I would have put the tire on the truck and then pumped it up.  It surely couldn't have blown off of the truck and hit him in the face. Not with 5 lug nuts holding it on.  And, even if he was pumping up the tire with it laying on the ground, you stand up to pump up a tire with a tire pump, generally, with one foot on the pump holding it down.  The tire would have had to fly up 5 and a half to 6 feet to hit him in the face.

Yes, very well said.

I know some people though who would say that the murder never happened and that it was just all in Ennis's head -- or some such ambiguity.

I personally think that he was murdered.  IMO, the assailant is indeed real, and not just a figment of Ennis's imagination.

And where do these brilliant people say Jack went tpe?  Why does Laureen cry when she finds out who Ennis actually was in Jack's life? Why didn't she just hang up immediately and run off to confront Jack if he was still alive? Why was Mrs. Twist so kind to Ennis? Do you REALLY think that bitter old bustard (sic) of a father would be a part of any conspiracy to hide Jack from Ennis?

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: dirtbiker on Apr 17, 2006, 03:27 PM
I do think it was a wonderful touch that the scene showing Jack being murdered is left ambiguous -- as the original story does.

Homophobia is definitely at the heart of the murder, if you indeed accept that he was murdered (as Hathaway herself implied in the Oprah interview).

I don't think there is any need to imply anything.  The movie credits say there was an assailant.  The scene was cut. Ang Lee said the whole sequence of the murder was filmed but he couldn't find a place to put it so it was dropped.  The original trailer showed 2 of the guys that killed him. Also, I know I do things differently from other people, but, I would have put the tire on the truck and then pumped it up.  It surely couldn't have blown off of the truck and hit him in the face. Not with 5 lug nuts holding it on.  And, even if he was pumping up the tire with it laying on the ground, you stand up to pump up a tire with a tire pump, generally, with one foot on the pump holding it down.  The tire would have had to fly up 5 and a half to 6 feet to hit him in the face.



It wasn't the tire though... She said "the rim of the tire" ;)

I don't understand your point dirtbiker.



Just saying that the rim was still on the tire, so it must've been pumped while still on the truck.  If it did explode, it could've shot the hubcap off and knocked Jack unconscious. Wait... the rim is actually the inner round metal thingie where the tire sits on right?  Maybe Lureen meant the hubcap and not the rim.  It would be impossible for the rim to hit Jack unless the bolts were loosened up before pumping the tire.
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Patriot1 on Apr 17, 2006, 03:38 PM
Just saying that the rim was still on the tire, so it must've been pumped while still on the truck.  If it did explode, it could've shot the hubcap off and knocked Jack unconscious. Wait... the rim is actually the inner round metal thingie where the tire sits on right?  Maybe Lureen meant the hubcap and not the rim.  It would be impossible for the rim to hit Jack unless the bolts were loosened up before pumping the tire.

Yes, the rim of the tire, dirtbiker (   ;D   ) is that round metal thing the rubber tire sits on. Even if the lug nuts weren't tight, but were on enough to hold the tire, it would have to have been a pretty large explosion to sheer off 5 lug nuts and fly straight up and hit Jack in the face.  Even then, it would have had to come straight out (away from the truck) and then make a 90 degree turn straight up.  I don't think so.

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 17, 2006, 03:49 PM
And where do these brilliant people say Jack went tpe?  Why does Laureen cry when she finds out who Ennis actually was in Jack's life? Why didn't she just hang up immediately and run off to confront Jack if he was still alive? Why was Mrs. Twist so kind to Ennis? Do you REALLY think that bitter old bustard (sic) of a father would be a part of any conspiracy to hide Jack from Ennis?

I guess they have the ambiguity in the short story in mind, and not the movie itself, which is much less ambiguous IMO.  ;)

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Patriot1 on Apr 17, 2006, 03:54 PM
And where do these brilliant people say Jack went tpe?  Why does Laureen cry when she finds out who Ennis actually was in Jack's life? Why didn't she just hang up immediately and run off to confront Jack if he was still alive? Why was Mrs. Twist so kind to Ennis? Do you REALLY think that bitter old bustard (sic) of a father would be a part of any conspiracy to hide Jack from Ennis?

I guess they have the ambiguity in the short story in mind, and not the movie itself, which is much less ambiguous IMO.  ;)

Yes, if someone had only the short story it becomes more ambiguous.  But, there are still those questions I asked above.



Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: filazahies on Apr 17, 2006, 07:00 PM
IMO Lureen didn't have Jack killed. I think she really loved Jack. In the Thanksgiving scene, when Jack shouts at Lureen's father she shows a smile of complicity or joy for what Jack has done. And at this point of the movie she may already "suppose" that after Jack's trips to Wyoming there was something more than a visit to a friend ( she might think Jack was cheating with another woman).Remember that Jack tells Ennis that he and Lureen could make love through the phone (or something like that)
When she talks to Ennis, she finds out that the visits were really to his friend Ennis, but he was the person with whom Jack was cheating on her... at this point she realised about her husband's "secret" and probably she could imagine the reason of his death. And that's wy she sounded so bitter, she was talking to the person her husband really loved.
It's just my opinion...
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: edgar on Apr 17, 2006, 10:36 PM
...And the way the movie shows the flashes of the murder, those must come from Lureen's head, yes? Certainly not from Ennis's head, at this point.

Why do you think they can't come from Ennis' head Edgar?

He is the one standing there thinking and not saying a word, to the point where she had to say "hello" several times before the images stopped and he "woke up".

I was sure they came from Ennis.



Thanks for the response P1. Well, it just seems to me that Ennis, hearing for the first time about Jack's death, would not instantly replace the images Lureen is feeding him with other, violent images of Jack being murdered.

Maybe later he would think about this as a possibility, but not immediately.

Also, I'm coming from the perspective that the shots of Jack's murder are "real." In other words, we are seeing what really happened to Jack. Ennis does not, cannot know this at this time. Lureen, imho, knows what really happened and *cannot keep* those images from her head as she repeats the lie.

I like your point about Jack's silence and faltering, but couldn't that just be a reaction to hearing the horrible news of Jack's death? Ennis was never much of a talker, you know....
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Patriot1 on Apr 17, 2006, 10:48 PM
...And the way the movie shows the flashes of the murder, those must come from Lureen's head, yes? Certainly not from Ennis's head, at this point.

Why do you think they can't come from Ennis' head Edgar?

He is the one standing there thinking and not saying a word, to the point where she had to say "hello" several times before the images stopped and he "woke up".

I was sure they came from Ennis.

Also, I'm coming from the perspective that the shots of Jack's murder are "real." In other words, we are seeing what really happened to Jack. Ennis does not, cannot know this at this time. Lureen, imho, knows what really happened and *cannot keep* those images from her head as she repeats the lie.

I like your point about Jack's silence and faltering, but couldn't that just be a reaction to hearing the horrible news of Jack's death? Ennis was never much of a talker, you know....


If you believe the images are real, that would have to mean either Ennis or Laureen was there when it happened in order for one of them to have a flashback of the real scene.

We all see the movie the way it means to most to us and I can not offer any conclusive proof or any kind of evidence to say the thoughts came from either one.  However, because Ennis is listening to her and thinking, and so caught up in his thoughts of Jack dying by the tire iron, I just believe the thoughts came from him.  She was talking, he was thinking.  For me, it doesn't make sense any other way.  She is talking and he is just standing there empty headed?

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: edgar on Apr 18, 2006, 12:53 AM
"If you believe the images are real, that would have to mean either Ennis or Laureen was there when it happened in order for one of them to have a flashback of the real scene."

Wow. That's a  thought. You're pushing my interp to its logical conclusion (farther than I want to go with it), but it's chilling possibility. Lureen (by accident? by design?) might have seen the murder, and she is the author and source of the "official story."

But what I'm thinking is that Lureen simply knew what had happened. Either she and the police figured it out by looking at the crime scene, or people who knew told her. Thus, the images in her head are not flashbacks, but her own "reconstruction" of what *actually* happened to Jack.

Psychologically, I just can't see Ennis thinking those thoughts while he's talking to Lureen. In such a situation, the most common response would be denial of the death at all, not an imagining of a worse sort of death.

Of course we all have our own interps. Goes without saying. That's why it's fun to discuss them.  :)
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: TwoSkins on Apr 18, 2006, 09:07 AM
I thought about some of the responsed and I agree that Jack and Randall must have been "dicovered" and the killing scene is a bashing, not brought about by Laureen...

Jack was such a brave man and a romantic for his time and place  - he would have risked it all for Ennis as well!!... I remember the thought in the Short Story how angry and painful it was for Ennis to know that there was no one there to help Jack if it was the rim of tire!!

 
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 18, 2006, 09:13 AM
I thought about some of the responsed and I agree that Jack and Randall must have been "dicovered" and the killing scene is a bashing, not brought about by Laureen...

Jack was such a brave man and a romantic for his time and place  - he would have risked it all for Ennis as well!!... I remember the thought in the Short Story how angry and painful it was for Ennis to know that there was no one there to help Jack if it was the rim of tire!!

You know, somehow I think Jack would not have minded being killed had he been able to share those 20 years with Ennis.

I think he was aware of the dangers, but did not really care.  He was singleminded in his love.  Dying young was not an issue so long as he had what he wanted most.

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: TwoSkins on Apr 18, 2006, 09:19 AM
TPE - such great insight! What a Movie huh? - dont you think they are real sometimes?
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 18, 2006, 09:39 AM
TPE - such great insight! What a Movie huh? - dont you think they are real sometimes?

They seem so real that I am so full of emotion right now here at the office...  A bit awkward, I must admit...

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: TwoSkins on Apr 18, 2006, 10:26 AM
 :-X
I understand completely!
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: donnaread on Apr 18, 2006, 02:41 PM
Like LuvJackNasty, I also believe that Jack was murdered. But how?

The least possibility I would like to think of is Lureen's involvement to have Jack killed. Could she have really turned from her love to hate and have Jack killed? I really hope not.




  The first time I saw the movie, just hearing the way Lureen told Ennis how Jack died, I wondered if she knew more than she was saying.  She sounded like she was repeating a story that was told to HER...but by whom, I thought...possibly her father?  Maybe Jack WAS planning to leave Lureen for Randall (because Ennis wouldn't live with him)...I can't see her father swallowing the humiliation of his daughter being left for another man.  He could have had Jack killed, then fed this "accident" story to Lureen.  I really can't see her having a hand in his murder.  I really do think she cared about him.  But the short story is deliberately ambiguous. and by the time Jack dies, Lureen's father has already been dead for quite awhile.   Heath Ledger himself says he hoped the movie inspires more questions than answers.  And Diana Osanna said she belives it was an accident.  Who are we to argue with one of the writers, lol. But, Personally I prefer to think he was murdered...makes the movie more dramatic.  And if he WAS murdered, I believe it was because of Randall, not Ennis. 
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: LuvJackNasty on Apr 18, 2006, 05:52 PM

You know, somehow I think Jack would not have minded being killed had he been able to share those 20 years with Ennis.

I think he was aware of the dangers, but did not really care.  He was singleminded in his love.  Dying young was not an issue so long as he had what he wanted most.



I agree whole-heartedly TPE. I think Jack would have rather have had a life with Ennis no matter how long or short. That's what was most important to him. That compounds the tragedy of the story, at least for me. Yes they had 20 years of loving each other, but it was mostly from a distance. Jack didn't get that sweet life with Ennis and the very thing that Ennis was afraid of happened anyway.
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 18, 2006, 06:12 PM
I agree whole-heartedly TPE. I think Jack would have rather have had a life with Ennis no matter how long or short. That's what was most important to him. That compounds the tragedy of the story, at least for me. Yes they had 20 years of loving each other, but it was mostly from a distance. Jack didn't get that sweet life with Ennis and the very thing that Ennis was afraid of happened anyway.

Thanks LuvJackNasty.  Whether we believe or not believe that there is more to Jack's death than meets the eye in the movie, we are sure that, in a very real sense, the end for both of them was inevitable.  Was Jack's recklessness (surely this contributed to his murder) compounded by Ennis's intransigence?  I would think yes.  But Jack would have it no other way, in the end.  Perhaps his death was predestined by his inability to take stock of consequences (whether with Lureen, with Randall, or with the mysterious mechanics), something Ennis had to a fault.

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: LuvJackNasty on Apr 18, 2006, 06:25 PM
I think Jack got more reckless after that last meeting and that was his undoing. There is so much that we don't know that led up to his death. I think something finally broke in him- "And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that"; Ennis breaking down and not being able to stand it anymore. I don't believe that he did or even could give up on Ennis so I don't feel that last meeting was an end to their relationship, but more of an end to Jack's hopes of having a life with Ennis. I think reality finally slapped him in the face and when he went back to Texas he wasn't as cautious. It could be any number of instances that led to  Jack being killed-we're never going to know- but I think him realizing that his dreams were just that and the aftermath of that realization played a big part in what happened to him.
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: frenchcda on Apr 18, 2006, 06:26 PM
You know, somehow I think Jack would not have minded being killed had he been able to share those 20 years with Ennis.

I think he was aware of the dangers, but did not really care.  He was singleminded in his love.  Dying young was not an issue so long as he had what he wanted most.

Maybe this is OT, however it is a point I wish to discuss and I am wondering about this situation as to Jack death, it is very much a coincidence that the time of his death was also the height of the aids epidemic!!!!
 I wondered if this scene has any relevance to this matter.
 I personally have known people who have suffered alot due the some unfortunate circumstance after leaving their lovers, mostly a lot of men who had affairs with other men especially single men with married men and their fear due to the aids factors had devastating results.
 I was watching the movie last night and it dawned on me that I had known some people back in the late 80th's who had ended long term relationship only to succumb to aids afterward!
 The scene regarding Jack twist and his lack of foresight kinda of bequeath his doom?
 any comment or point of view on this matter??????????
  or does anyone see a connection to this scene and what I cited above?
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 18, 2006, 06:44 PM
frenchcda, indeed OOT, but interesting nonetheless.

In a sense, BBM is timeless, in that it did not seem to reference any of the touchstones in recent Gay history.  I think it was partly because of the setting: rural Wyoming, so far from the gay efloresence of the Cities and the life lived on edge.  It is partly intentional: to make the story resonate more universally -- make it timeless and boundless.

This said, it is interesting that the period corresponding to Jack's death falls pat on the start of the great Epidemic.  Anyone who has seen friends and acquaintances swept away will capture some nuance of a correspondence.

Whether the symbolism is there or not, I think, in the end, the love and death of Jack Twist transcends even these defining moments -- so raw and affecting even to us today.   

Jack Twist lived and died under one defining love.  The exact circumstances surrounding this death or any period symbolism that it may represent pales in comparison to that love.  Had he died of AIDS, it would not have changed the substance of what defined him as a character in BBM.

In the end, there is only one reference.  There is only one touchstone.  There is only one defining entity.

His name is Ennis Del Mar.



Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: Patriot1 on Apr 18, 2006, 06:48 PM
Maybe this is OT, however it is a point I wish to discuss and I am wondering about this situation as to Jack death, it is very much a coincidence that the time of his death was also the height of the aids epidemic!!!!
 I wondered if this scene has any relevance to this matter.
 I personally have known people who have suffered alot due the some unfortunate circumstance after leaving their lovers, mostly a lot of men who had affairs with other men especially single men with married men and their fear due to the aids factors had devastating results.
 I was watching the movie last night and it dawned on me that I had known some people back in the late 80th's who had ended long term relationship only to succumb to aids afterward!
 The scene regarding Jack twist and his lack of foresight kinda of bequeath his doom?
 any comment or point of view on this matter??????????
  or does anyone see a connection to this scene and what I cited above?

Frenchcda,  Jack's death had nothing to do with AIDS as you know, but, you do bring up a similarity between those people you know who ended long-term relationships and Jack's death.  All those people, after giving up a long-term relationship got crazy reckless which resulted in their deaths.  I am sure Jack became reckless with Randall and outed himself in some way and in the wrong time and place.  After a long-term relationship it is common to sleep with anyone and everyone looking for someone else.  As we now know, that was not a good thing to do unprotected.

Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: frenchcda on Apr 19, 2006, 01:28 AM
I would and certainly do not imply that Jack died of aids, what I was making reference to. some manners that period or his actions reflect very much the demise of some of the people that have unfortunately succumbed that have abruptly finalized relationship due to their fear of this disease, and in some ways this fear has somewhat became a truth for them.
 I understand Jack died due to a lack of tolerance form ignorance itself in the same intolerance of some people defined and ended their relationships with dire consequences.
 that being said I can clearly say that at least I was not all that wrong in asserting that there is or was some kind of coloration to their behaviors no matter the environment
Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: tpe on Apr 19, 2006, 06:45 AM
I would and certainly do not imply that Jack died of aids, what I was making reference to. some manners that period or his actions reflect very much the demise of some of the people that have unfortunately succumbed that have abruptly finalized relationship due to their fear of this disease, and in some ways this fear has somewhat became a truth for them.
 I understand Jack died due to a lack of tolerance form ignorance itself in the same intolerance of some people defined and ended their relationships with dire consequences.
 that being said I can clearly say that at least I was not all that wrong in asserting that there is or was some kind of coloration to their behaviors no matter the environment


Hello frenchcda, yes I know that you did not imply that Jack died of AIDS.  I also mentioned this as an illustration of the love's universality even if this was true.

An older friend of mine did point out this specific point that characterized the period when Jack died.  When you 100 entires crossed out in an address book in the space of a few weeks back then, and see the aversion and fear those that passed on were treated in the final days, you cannot help but think of their deaths and the intolerance they were treated as closely intertwined in a profound way.  I think this is what my older friend had in mind.  You call it 'coloration'.  I think I understand your point here.



Title: Re: Did Lureen Have Jack Killed?
Post by: AddieTatum16 on May 30, 2021, 12:20 AM
I honestly don't believe that Lureen killed Jack. I mean sure she may have become embittered over the years (I mean, any of us would if our spouses became unfaithful), but I don't think she was the culprit. If you look carefully during the scene where she is on the phone with Ennis, you can see she has tears in her eyes. Therefore, it's implied that she found out that her husband loved Ennis, more than he ever loved her, and was heartbroken about it.