Topic: "Not so lonely like you were raised"

[dirtbiker]

Going back a few posts, yes, what Ennis did to Alma, without any preparation/lubrication must have been painful - speaking from experience here. But that may be part of it - he was desperate? Or he didn't consider her as he did Jack - even in the throes of intense desire he did stop to spit...And he evidently knew Alma hated it but it was Jack he wanted there, not her. He knew it wasn't to do with her - "This ain't her fault" he says to Jack later - but he couldn't help how he felt. He doesn't meet her eyes, as he often doesn't - afraid of what they'd betray?

welshwitch, I think we may be forgetting that "conventional heterosexual relations" can be achieved in that "position" too. 

[mactwck]

Yes but in the SS it says, he did what she hated, quickly.  Then later in the story she says that what he liked to do did not make babies. I thinks this is self explainatory.

[edgar]

welshwitch, I think we may be forgetting that "conventional heterosexual relations" can be achieved in that "position" too. 

Kinda the whole point a includin this detail is to show that Ennis is trying to recapture a Jack moment. Or that, when he gets aroused, he unconsciously starts thinkin about the old days with Jack.

[tpe]

welshwitch, I think we may be forgetting that "conventional heterosexual relations" can be achieved in that "position" too. 

Kinda the whole point a includin this detail is to show that Ennis is trying to recapture a Jack moment. Or that, when he gets aroused, he unconsciously starts thinkin about the old days with Jack.

I gather it evoked hs first taste of sex, since Jack was his first, no?  The association must have been irresistible.

[edgar]

welshwitch, I think we may be forgetting that "conventional heterosexual relations" can be achieved in that "position" too. 

Kinda the whole point a includin this detail is to show that Ennis is trying to recapture a Jack moment. Or that, when he gets aroused, he unconsciously starts thinkin about the old days with Jack.

I gather it evoked hs first taste of sex, since Jack was his first, no?  The association must have been irresistible.

Yes, I think so.

[orangetruck]

I've often wondered what Ennis is thinking when Alma says "not so lonely like you were raised", in the bedroom scene when she's trying to seduce Ennis into agreeing to move to town. 

For most of that scene, Ennis has his eyes closed, taking in the touches of Alma and responding in kind to her words, but when she says that line, he seems to stop himself, open his eyes, and look off, like he's thinking of something in relation to those words.

For what it's worth, I think Ennis is thinking about Jack.  How Jack stopped him feeling lonely up on Brokeback.  How it could only ever be Jack to stop him feeling lonely.  How he would always be lonely without Jack.

What do others think about that scene?

I don't remember coming upon this thread before. Christie, what a great topic. Read some good posts. The line does seem to say some things. From feelings towards jack, to his particular upbringing (lonely, having lost his parents, etc). And, perhaps notable, the line carries a mere clairvoyance. Or at another angle, apprehension? Ennis may have envisioned his future with Alma, they've split up, leaving the girls to a broken family. I figure bells were ringing in his head in response, in any case. Also, didn't Alma use the line to gauge or, rather, coax Ennis' father instincts?

What you say about Jack really hits the nail on the head. For me this was the centrality of all of his thoughts in that scene. 

[tpe]

I don't remember coming upon this thread before. Christie, what a great topic. Read some good posts. The line does seem to say some things. From feelings towards jack, to his particular upbringing (lonely, having lost his parents, etc). And, perhaps notable, the line carries a mere clairvoyance. Or at another angle, apprehension? Ennis may have envisioned his future with Alma, they've split up, leaving the girls to a broken family. I figure bells were ringing in his head in response, in any case. Also, didn't Alma use the line to gauge or, rather, coax Ennis' father instincts?

What you say about Jack really hits the nail on the head. For me this was the centrality of all of his thoughts in that scene. 

What you say here is most intriguing -- I had never though of this as a kind of clairvoyance.  Or even apprehension.  A very interesting point of view, orangetruck.

[orangetruck]

What you say here is most intriguing -- I had never though of this as a kind of clairvoyance.  Or even apprehension.  A very interesting point of view, orangetruck.

Thanks, tpe. I think there's a tie that somewhat binds Ennis' subconscious voice here to that in "It's because of you, Jack..", even as he didn't say anything but "C'mere" to Alma in the former.

He couldn't just pin point his reactions, yet he was rightfully submissive to them. If somewhere underneath there was an inherent link between his lonely childhood and that of his own kids' in the future, maybe the reflex to get it on with his wife was a way to sweep all of his feelings under the same rug...

Ennis goes through the motions by pleasing (merely responding) Alma which also, as the sex scene 'flips', indicates that Jack had never left his mind.

True enough, he is not a simple character to understand. It seems that he can adjust to blow with the wind in nearly any circumstance except for the immovable, untold love he has for Jack.

"Not so lonely like you were raised"

Somehow it seems he is working as hard at his kids' upbringing as he still is at his own.

[tpe]

You are certainly right in that Ennis's reactions were more visceral than thoughtful.  What you call his subconsiouc voice in the 2 scenes illustrates this quite beautifully.

And the element of submission is certainly there, and how his lonely childhood loomed large in the scene under consideration is more than plausible.  Thinking of it now, I think I do get what you mean -- I had not just recognized that I too saw this undwerneath. 

As you said:

"Not so lonely like you were raised"

Somehow it seems he is working as hard at his kids' upbringing as he still is with his own.