Topic: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out"

[vedrana]

Even the ss does not explicitly blame Ennis, although there is more than a hint of a return to fear -- suggesting that Jack's death by the tire-iron was what was on Ennis's mind, and may not have been what really happened.   We get a greater sense of guilt in the movie, I believe...

I think Ennis was a stronger person in the LF scenes.  Had he beleievd that Jack's love had worn out, he might not have been that strong, perhaps?

Sure! Anyway the hardest stroke came from the old Twist and his story about Jack's neighbour coming to LF. That was the moment when Ennis could've suspect the most about Jack's love. But then he went up to Jack's room....

[vedrana]

And for the first time, Ennis realized just how much he loved Jack.

OMG, that too! The shirts had a power not only to show Ennis Jack's love, but also his own! To reveal all the thing unsaid during their "separate and difficult lives"!!! And no Jack to share that love!

How that must have hurt! Poor Ennis!  :\'(

[tpe]

Sure! Anyway the hardest stroke came from the old Twist and his story about Jack's neighbour coming to LF. That was the moment when Ennis could've suspect the most about Jack's love. But then he went up to Jack's room....

I also think that his lack of a visible reaction then showed that he had the internal strength to bear this posthumous revelation.  It wasn't that he was not hurting inside; rather, it showed that he had gained the strength and the courage to face it without flinching.

[tpe]

OMG, that too! The shirts had a power not only to show Ennis Jack's love, but also his own! To reveal all the thing unsaid during their "separate and difficult lives"!!! And no Jack to share that love!

How that must have hurt! Poor Ennis!  :\'(

But the revelation was also a gift, correct?  Would it have been better that Ennis spent the rest of his life not knowing?

[vedrana]

I also think that his lack of a visible reaction then showed that he had the internal strength to bear this posthumous revelation.  It wasn't that he was not hurting inside; rather, it showed that he had gained the strength and the courage to face it without flinching.

Ennis was a very firm character. It wasn't easy to make him lose it. But surely, he could've felt hurt at the moment.

[vedrana]

But the revelation was also a gift, correct?  Would it have been better that Ennis spent the rest of his life not knowing?

I don't know. Probably not! But the main damage had already been done and the rest of it were just different shades of life. But all dark!

[lancecowboy]

This is a huge burden to be aware that you may be the reason for your beloved person to die in such a horrible way. I am here with Ennis 100% even he WAS guilty in a way, but had no power to turn himself into the person, only Jack death could create. But, his sorrow is so palpable, so deep and heavy, that no one can remain insensitive to that.

I liked Ennis in LF, even it is so anxious scene, that I rarely watch it. But he was the man we wanted him to be! Polite, but proud, sensitive, but firm... Love him there, even my heart is broken! And will always be each time I remember him in Jack's room...

I don't think Ennis blamed himself, nor is he to be blamed for Jack's death (whether by accident or murder). My impression of Ennis as portrayed by Heath is someone who was grieving for the loss of someone he loved, for the opportunity to love and be loved, because by the time he sent the postcard to Jack, he dumped Cassie and was ready to face this thing with no reins, this thing he finally had a name, love. It's why the screenwriters injected the diner scene. It makes the scene in Lightning Flats more poignant.

In a sense, the Ennis that went to Lightning Flats was the Ennis that Jack met, the reticent, quiet, withdrawn, polite, dutiful, follow the rules Ennis that would not stir trouble. The trauma of Jack's death, not unlike the trauma of losing his parents at an early age, put him back to familiar territory, the withdrawn cowboy. That's why he suffered in silence when the old man bullied him with the Randall bits. He was angry, he was hurt, but he did nothing, and suffered in silence as he always did...gotta stand it if you can't fix it. But fortunately, Jack's Ma stepped in, as she must have done often with Jack, placed a gentle compassionate hand on his shoulder, and guided him away from the bully to find refuge upstairs, in Jack's room. She kept it like it was when he was a boy...a refuge away from the angry storm of a man.

That one scene in the kitchen was masterful and prepared the perfect scene in the bedroom. Without the confrontation with the old man, when Ennis was not placed at the depth of despair, thinking he lost Jack, not only physically, but also in love, the moment of truth, of finding those shirts would not be as powerful as it was, breaking down all the walls that kept Ennis locked up tight. The love that Ennis thought he lost, the love that he yearned for, burst forth in a moment that energized him, and perhaps for the first time in his life, he cried.

I don't know. Probably not! But the main damage had already been done and the rest of it were just different shades of life. But all dark!

I see the light that is Jack's Ma, the angel of compassion and gentleness, and the light that is Jack's love, the love that has no end, and the light that is Ennis' devotion, the faithfulness that is singular and true.

I have been told that I see the end differently than others, and I do not apologize for it, but I also understand others' point of view.

  I hope you find peace in/from the movie, whatever you see.

[vedrana]

I don't think Ennis blamed himself, nor is he to be blamed for Jack's death (whether by accident or murder). My impression of Ennis as portrayed by Heath is someone who was grieving for the loss of someone he loved, for the opportunity to love and be loved, because by the time he sent the postcard to Jack, he dumped Cassie and was ready to face this thing with no reins, this thing he finally had a name, love. It's why the screenwriters injected the diner scene. It makes the scene in Lightning Flats more poignant.

***
That one scene in the kitchen was masterful and prepared the perfect scene in the bedroom. Without the confrontation with the old man, when Ennis was not placed at the depth of despair, thinking he lost Jack, not only physically, but also in love, the moment of truth, of finding those shirts would not be as powerful as it was, breaking down all the walls that kept Ennis locked up tight. The love that Ennis thought he lost, the love that he yearned for, burst forth in a moment that energized him, and perhaps for the first time in his life, he cried.

I see the light that is Jack's Ma, the angel of compassion and gentleness, and the light that is Jack's love, the love that has no end, and the light that is Ennis' devotion, the faithfulness that is singular and true.

I have been told that I see the end differently than others, and I do not apologize for it, but I also understand others' point of view.

  I hope you find peace in/from the movie, whatever you see.

Lance,
I think that you're right about Ennis not feeling guilty for Jack's death, nor should have he felt guilty for that. But not embracing the sweet life with Jack could have also been a reason why Jack is dead. Had Ennis dumped Cassie in order to be able to accept Jack's proposal in any conditions, then Ennis should have had in mind that the postponing of this decision could led to Jack's unfortunate destiny.

In my mind I am not sure  if Ennis' decision to dump Cassie was the result of his determination to accept Jack's terms... really we have no firm evidence of this. But I can leave it open, cos I have no evidence that it wasn't.

He cried during FC for the first time we saw. He broke there and broke our hearts too!  :\'(

As for Jack's Ma, I always think of the movie and SS at the same time. Mrs. Twist and her husband had no physical resemblance with Jack whatsoever, according to SS. In that way AP showed us that Jack's parents could not represent him nor Ennis could've find any sign of Jack in them. Movie is different though and Mrs. Twist is a very kind woman who not only accepts, but also embraces Ennis and his relationship with her son, wanting to have the piece of him through Ennis. To be honest -not much hope in my heart anyway
.
Finally, we all see this story in our way, and feel it in our way. The only thing common is the enormous impact it has on all of us. The differences in the experiencing BbM are not only expected, but necessary and can form our POV in the best way. Cos a lots of things I have learned from others, which I didn't necessarily agree with.

[lancecowboy]

Lance,
I think that you're right about Ennis not feeling guilty for Jack's death, nor should have he felt guilty for that. But not embracing the sweet life with Jack could have also been a reason why Jack is dead. Had Ennis dumped Cassie in order to be able to accept Jack's proposal in any conditions, then Ennis should have had in mind that the postponing of this decision could led to Jack's unfortunate destiny.

In my mind I am not sure  if Ennis' decision to dump Cassie was the result of his determination to accept Jack's terms... really we have no firm evidence of this. But I can leave it open, cos I have no evidence that it wasn't.

There is no logical reason for Ennis or anyone to think Jack's death was caused by Ennis, either directly or indirectly. Jack lived for twenty years with the arrangement. It didn't kill him. If anything is to be blamed, the short story implied that Jack's "affair" with Randall was the cause. That's what Ennis thought of the tire iron when the old talked about Randall. No Ennis did not feel guilty; he felt an immense grief, not only for Jack, but also for the opportunities lost. As for his ending the relationship with Cassie, it was fairly clear in the diner scene that he was sorry that he could not return the feelings that Cassie had for him. He didn't know what it was, until Cassie said that girls don't fall in love with fun. Then, the expression on his face, was one of insight, epiphany,  a moment of recognition when confounded with truth. He loved Jack.

He cried during FC for the first time we saw. He broke there and broke our hearts too!  :\'(

As for Jack's Ma, I always think of the movie and SS at the same time. Mrs. Twist and her husband had no physical resemblance with Jack whatsoever, according to SS. In that way AP showed us that Jack's parents could not represent him nor Ennis could've find any sign of Jack in them. Movie is different though and Mrs. Twist is a very kind woman who not only accepts, but also embraces Ennis and his relationship with her son, wanting to have the piece of him through Ennis. To be honest -not much hope in my heart anyway
.
Finally, we all see this story in our way, and feel it in our way. The only thing common is the enormous impact it has on all of us. The differences in the experiencing BbM are not only expected, but necessary and can form our POV in the best way. Cos a lots of things I have learned from others, which I didn't necessarily agree with.

As I said, not many people saw the last part of the movie as I do. I see Jack's Ma playing a crucial role, and I disagree that Jack was not similar or related to Jack's Ma in the short story. If anything, the scene about the pentacost, etc, showed that Jack had a special place for his mother in his heart. He spoke of her with fondness and affection. It is normal, for two people surviving from the same abuser, to bond.

Just my opinion.

[vedrana]

There is no logical reason for Ennis or anyone to think Jack's death was caused by Ennis, either directly or indirectly. Jack lived for twenty years with the arrangement. It didn't kill him. If anything is to be blamed, the short story implied that Jack's "affair" with Randall was the cause. That's what Ennis thought of the tire iron when the old talked about Randall. No Ennis did not feel guilty; he felt an immense grief, not only for Jack, but also for the opportunities lost. As for his ending the relationship with Cassie, it was fairly clear in the diner scene that he was sorry that he could not return the feelings that Cassie had for him. He didn't know what it was, until Cassie said that girls don't fall in love with fun. Then, the expression on his face, was one of insight, epiphany,  a moment of recognition when confounded with truth. He loved Jack.

As I said, not many people saw the last part of the movie as I do. I see Jack's Ma playing a crucial role, and I disagree that Jack was not similar or related to Jack's Ma in the short story. If anything, the scene about the pentacost, etc, showed that Jack had a special place for his mother in his heart. He spoke of her with fondness and affection. It is normal, for two people surviving from the same abuser, to bond.

Just my opinion.

If Ennis accepted Jack's offer for sweet life, Jack would never have the need to fool around with Randall or anyone else, and would not expose hims self to death, so IMO Ennis' decision to refuse Jack's proposal over and over again had at least a little, even indirect influence on Jack's death. But we can not blame Ennis.

As for Cassie, I'll have to watch that part again and try to recognize the same message as you. You maybe right here, but I didn't notice.

Jack's Ma and her attitude towards Ennis is definitely very clear in the movie, but not so warm and explicit in the SS. I would prefer to think that Ennis has found his ally in Mrs. Twist, more as he had lost his mother when he was a little boy, but somehow I am not as near optimistic as you are. Ennis has lost the biggest chance in his life. He's to be sorry all his life, and I am going to feel for him all my life.

That's how I see it now, but I will keep my heart open for the change and maybe one day I'll be able to accept my biggest loss - of my own Jack, whatever and whoever he is!

[lancecowboy]

If Ennis accepted Jack's offer for sweet life, Jack would never have the need to fool around with Randall or anyone else, and would not expose hims self to death, so IMO Ennis' decision to refuse Jack's proposal over and over again had at least a little, even indirect influence on Jack's death. But we can not blame Ennis.

Sorry, Loreen, I don't subscribe to this logic because by the same logic, you can say victims caused their own suffering because they did not agree to the advances of their aggressors. Each individual MUST take responsibility for their own actions, their own DECISIONS. When Jack decided to walk into the alley with the Mexican prostitute, it was his responsibility alone. When Jack exposed himself to ridicule when coming on to the rodeo clown, it was his responsibility alone. When Jack succumbed to Randall's advances, it was his responsibility alone. When Ennis refused Jack's proposal, it was his responsibility alone. He could not blame it on his father, or society. We can attribute an understanding of the cause or origin or influence to that decision, to each decision, but we cannot blur the responsibility for each decision with its attributes. To do so, in my humble opinion, is to deny each individual the freedom to change his or her own future by making choice for a different future from the past.

As for Cassie, I'll have to watch that part again and try to recognize the same message as you. You maybe right here, but I didn't notice.

Jack's Ma and her attitude towards Ennis is definitely very clear in the movie, but not so warm and explicit in the SS. I would prefer to think that Ennis has found his ally in Mrs. Twist, more as he had lost his mother when he was a little boy, but somehow I am not as near optimistic as you are. Ennis has lost the biggest chance in his life. He's to be sorry all his life, and I am going to feel for him all my life.

That's how I see it now, but I will keep my heart open for the change and maybe one day I'll be able to accept my biggest loss - of my own Jack, whatever and whoever he is!

Did you know that Annie Proulx wrote a very touching letter of appreciation to Roberta Maxwell, the actress who portrayed Jack's Ma? I believe the thread also has the audio of an interview with her.

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3080.0

  I hope you find comfort here.

[atalley]

    Andrew...your posts are beautiful, as always!

[vedrana]

Sorry, Loreen, I don't subscribe to this logic because by the same logic, you can say victims caused their own suffering because they did not agree to the advances of their aggressors. Each individual MUST take responsibility for their own actions, their own DECISIONS. When Jack decided to walk into the alley with the Mexican prostitute, it was his responsibility alone. When Jack exposed himself to ridicule when coming on to the rodeo clown, it was his responsibility alone. When Jack succumbed to Randall's advances, it was his responsibility alone. When Ennis refused Jack's proposal, it was his responsibility alone. He could not blame it on his father, or society. We can attribute an understanding of the cause or origin or influence to that decision, to each decision, but we cannot blur the responsibility for each decision with its attributes. To do so, in my humble opinion, is to deny each individual the freedom to change his or her own future by making choice for a different future from the past.

I see your point here and I can agree that our decisions are our own responsibility. On the other side, those decisions are a product not only of our own, but they are influenced by a lots of circumstances. Most of our decisions are made under the pressure of society or some things in the past or an advice...
I know that going to the Mexican prostitute was solely Jack's decision, but can we possibly understand under what conditions he did that - after rejected and rudely refused by Ennis, after driving for 14 hours on the wings of the wind, so happy, so thrilled he fell down in the mud of his old yearning for the life with Ennis whose words stroked him even more powerful now when Ennis has no Alma to excuse himself. Maybe I am not realistic when it comes to Jack - he's my open wound, but I don't think that we can take things black and white. There are many shades of gray in between.

Did you know that Annie Proulx wrote a very touching letter of appreciation to Roberta Maxwell, the actress who portrayed Jack's Ma? I believe the thread also has the audio of an interview with her.

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3080.0

  I hope you find comfort here.

Thank you so much for this link. I had a bit of a problem to understand it all, especially something about Heath showing up...
You're right - it comforts a lot in a way, but for me - can not diminish my sadness of losing Jack.
Roberta Maxwell sounded so dear. I liked her not only as jack's mother, but as the actress too. Lovely lady!

[lancecowboy]

I see your point here and I can agree that our decisions are our own responsibility. On the other side, those decisions are a product not only of our own, but they are influenced by a lots of circumstances. Most of our decisions are made under the pressure of society or some things in the past or an advice...
I know that going to the Mexican prostitute was solely Jack's decision, but can we possibly understand under what conditions he did that - after rejected and rudely refused by Ennis, after driving for 14 hours on the wings of the wind, so happy, so thrilled he fell down in the mud of his old yearning for the life with Ennis whose words stroked him even more powerful now when Ennis has no Alma to excuse himself. Maybe I am not realistic when it comes to Jack - he's my open wound, but I don't think that we can take things black and white. There are many shades of gray in between.

I agree that there are many shades of gray when it comes to attributes that influence each decision, and it is where compassion comes in to fill in the spaces in between. I, personally, do not fault Jack for his visit to Mexico, although I do not like it. I understand his needs differing from Ennis', needing more than a couple high attitude f@#$ a few times a year. I also do not fault his needs for companionship with rodeo clowns or others.  It is the opposite of compassion to hold Jack at a standard higher than he can bear.

Similarly, I do not blame Ennis for his homophobia nor his refusing to be with Jack, even though I wish it were not so. In our love and compassion for the two lovers, we fill in the shades of gray with compassion and understanding, and wish them well.

Thank you so much for this link. I had a bit of a problem to understand it all, especially something about Heath showing up...
You're right - it comforts a lot in a way, but for me - can not diminish my sadness of losing Jack.
Roberta Maxwell sounded so dear. I liked her not only as jack's mother, but as the actress too. Lovely lady!

It's a bit off topic here, but I will venture a quick response before the moderators smack me with the OT sign. If you wish to discuss it further, I'd be happy to continue in the other thread.

Roberta mentioned that Heath showed up to help her with her own close up shots, instead of typical big Hollywood star's practice of having a stand-in, to read the star's lines. If I recall from the interview, Heath just finished shooting his own scenes, upstairs in the bedroom, the perfect scene with the two shirts. Then he stayed behind helping Roberta with her close up shoots. It speaks to Heath's generosity of spirit and the reason why everyone who ever worked with Heath loved about him. I am glad you find comfort in Jack's Ma, too. She is one of my favorite characters in the movie. Perhaps the favorite, after Ennis and Jack, of course.

[tpe]

I don't know. Probably not! But the main damage had already been done and the rest of it were just different shades of life. But all dark!

Well, I see some light in the end. 

[FlwrChild]

I'm a long time getting back to this thread. What a great conversation taking place.

First I'll just reiterate that I do not think that Jack's love wore out. I think it was worn down but not nearly out. The instinctive way in which he set aside his own pain to comfort Ennis in the final confrontation says it all to me. Jack loved Ennis because it was in his very nature to do so, whether it brought him pain, happiness or both. How long he might have endured we'll never know but for those 20 years I believe his love was and stayed solid.

Just to give my take on the different theories being discussed here:

-While it is true that everyone is responsible for his or her own actions, regardless of the motivating factors, that doesn't mean that we don't have a natural tendency to blame ourselves for the things that other people do. "If only I'd..." speculation can hinder even the most common sensed when emotions play into things.

So it is possible (though not in any way confirmed) that Ennis felt some measure of responsibility for Jack's fate. Perhaps even just in the sense that this is the inevitable outcome for men who engage in same sex relationships, as his father taught him only too well at a very impressionable age. Was it Jack's relationship with Randall that got him killed in Ennis' eyes or just the fact that he was 'like that' at all? We'll never know for sure. We know only that he believed Jack was killed for it.

-I still don't think that Ennis had a true epiphany about his feelings for Jack until after Jack died. I have always thought that although Cassie's comment to him in the diner gave him pause to look at things somewhat differently, it was not nearly as significant as many others feel (and partially because it wasn't even in the SS, although I think I'd feel this way anyway). I don't think that Ennis breaking up with Cassie necessarily meant he was prepared to make a life with Jack, though he was certainly planning to meet him in November. I think he had realized that his feelings for her would never pass the barriers he had in place and that the relationship could never go anywhere, but not because he was ready to embrace a life with Jack. I think that all of those pieces fell into place with his visit to LF. The enormous loss struck him immediately upon receiving that postcard, but processing all of the pieces into place happened in that moment in Jack's closet, just imo.

-We actually do see Ennis cry on a couple of previous occasions. At the end of that first summer when he collapses in the alley, he cries out as well as dry heaving and punching the wall (I've always thought that was one of the most impressive things Heath did in this film - that sound tore at my heart). And in the divorce scene in the courthouse he has tears in his eyes as the judge renders the divorce final. For me these scenes show the depth of feeling that he is both capable of and oh so dtermined to hold at bay whenever possible. Ennis always tried so hard to keep control, it's not surprising that emotion almost always burst out of him, whether it was passion, sorrow or violence.

-And finally, I see the end of the story as a blending of the two orientations: Ennis has both the joy of knowing he was loved with an enduring and steadfast love and the sorrow of knowing that he realized it only too late, when the one he loved was beyond his reach. It is the tragic circle of BBM that can't be broken - in order for Ennis to realize how much he loved and was loved in return, he needs the catalyst of Jack's death. With Jack's death, all hope for that love is taken from him. The circle continues. There is no way into or out of it for Ennis. I wish I could see it in a more peaceful light but I can't acknowledge one without the other and I truly believe that this is why Ennis draws the measure of a day not from what happens from dawn to dusk but from what transpires while he sleeps:

…..yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream……



I really do love that this story (both in the original SS version and the movie) gives us so much detailed information about these characters and their lives and yet leaves so many 'open spaces' at the same time that each one of us can draw so many different conclusions, sometimes far apart and sometimes winding around again to meet each other on the other side.

[lancecowboy]

I'm a long time getting back to this thread. What a great conversation taking place.

It's always a pleasure, FlwrChild. Welcome back to the conversation.

First I'll just reiterate that I do not think that Jack's love wore out. I think it was worn down but not nearly out. The instinctive way in which he set aside his own pain to comfort Ennis in the final confrontation says it all to me. Jack loved Ennis because it was in his very nature to do so, whether it brought him pain, happiness or both. How long he might have endured we'll never know but for those 20 years I believe his love was and stayed solid.

Just to give my take on the different theories being discussed here:

[...]

-I still don't think that Ennis had a true epiphany about his feelings for Jack until after Jack died. I have always thought that although Cassie's comment to him in the diner gave him pause to look at things somewhat differently, it was not nearly as significant as many others feel (and partially because it wasn't even in the SS, although I think I'd feel this way anyway). I don't think that Ennis breaking up with Cassie necessarily meant he was prepared to make a life with Jack, though he was certainly planning to meet him in November. I think he had realized that his feelings for her would never pass the barriers he had in place and that the relationship could never go anywhere, but not because he was ready to embrace a life with Jack. I think that all of those pieces fell into place with his visit to LF. The enormous loss struck him immediately upon receiving that postcard, but processing all of the pieces into place happened in that moment in Jack's closet, just imo.

I agree with you here, and would use a metaphor, where the love Ennis felt with Jack was a mountain that he had to climb. He let go of Cassie in order to return to the mountain, knowing that's where he belongs, but not knowing what to do, or even conscious of the mountain itself. But as you said, when Jack died, the grief made him realized how much he lost. And the shock of discovering those two shirts hanging in the closet all these years, the energy of knowing he was loved all those twenty years, the lost of opportunities living with Jack and Ma Twist, building a cow and calf operation, that was what pushed him over the edge, and climbed that mountain, and embraced the love.

-We actually do see Ennis cry on a couple of previous occasions. At the end of that first summer when he collapses in the alley, he cries out as well as dry heaving and punching the wall (I've always thought that was one of the most impressive things Heath did in this film - that sound tore at my heart). And in the divorce scene in the courthouse he has tears in his eyes as the judge renders the divorce final. For me these scenes show the depth of feeling that he is both capable of and oh so dtermined to hold at bay whenever possible. Ennis always tried so hard to keep control, it's not surprising that emotion almost always burst out of him, whether it was passion, sorrow or violence.

-And finally, I see the end of the story as a blending of the two orientations: Ennis has both the joy of knowing he was loved with an enduring and steadfast love and the sorrow of knowing that he realized it only too late, when the one he loved was beyond his reach. It is the tragic circle of BBM that can't be broken - in order for Ennis to realize how much he loved and was loved in return, he needs the catalyst of Jack's death. With Jack's death, all hope for that love is taken from him. The circle continues. There is no way into or out of it for Ennis. I wish I could see it in a more peaceful light but I can't acknowledge one without the other and I truly believe that this is why Ennis draws the measure of a day not from what happens from dawn to dusk but from what transpires while he sleeps:

…..yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream……

I love every word here.  The joy and the sorrow. The joy is the sorrow; the sorrow is the joy.

I really do love that this story (both in the original SS version and the movie) gives us so much detailed information about these characters and their lives and yet leaves so many 'open spaces' at the same time that each one of us can draw so many different conclusions, sometimes far apart and sometimes winding around again to meet each other on the other side.

The love that never gets old, no matter how many times we come back to visit.

Thanks for all this. 

[tpe]

***
-And finally, I see the end of the story as a blending of the two orientations: Ennis has both the joy of knowing he was loved with an enduring and steadfast love and the sorrow of knowing that he realized it only too late, when the one he loved was beyond his reach. It is the tragic circle of BBM that can't be broken - in order for Ennis to realize how much he loved and was loved in return, he needs the catalyst of Jack's death. With Jack's death, all hope for that love is taken from him. The circle continues. There is no way into or out of it for Ennis. I wish I could see it in a more peaceful light but I can't acknowledge one without the other and I truly believe that this is why Ennis draws the measure of a day not from what happens from dawn to dusk but from what transpires while he sleeps:

…..yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream……

***

Thanks for continueing this discussion, and following lance, I wish to comment specifically on the above passage.  The reason is because I had posted similar sentiments in my last post in "who had the greater sorrow" thread.    What you say here is in effect an expansion of some of my thoughts relating to this.   And interestingly enough, if throws a light on the nature of Jack's love.  The shirts, which finally brought about the realization in Ennis, had really been close to the core of Jack's understanding of his love for Ennis.  It is fitting that the shirts were the ones that finally revealed posthumously the vision of love that Ennis could understand.  I think it was this aspect (with Ennis's shirt inside Jack's) that endured even after death.  I think that it is this aspect never wore out.

[athena0204]

Did Jack's love wear out? Absolutely not. There's no way it ever could. Their love was true and eternal love, something  beyond this life and world. Did Jack's hope that Ennis would finally listen to him and live with him wear out? It somewhat did, although I don't believe that it would ever completely disappear. Jack would always have some hope of Ennis finally coming around and listening to him, even if it was just a tiny sliver of hope, it would always be there. What had diminished over the years was Jack's hope of the shared life together, not his love for Ennis.

[tpe]

Did Jack's love wear out? Absolutely not. There's no way it ever could. Their love was true and eternal love, something  beyond this life and world. Did Jack's hope that Ennis would finally listen to him and live with him wear out? It somewhat did, although I don't believe that it would ever completely disappear. Jack would always have some hope of Ennis finally coming around and listening to him, even if it was just a tiny sliver of hope, it would always be there. What had diminished over the years was Jack's hope of the shared life together, not his love for Ennis.

Perfectly nuanced, athena0204.  This is pretty much how I feel.

[athena0204]

The last time they see each other, when Ennis tells Jack he can't meet him in August because he has to work and then tells him if he has a better idea, and Jack replies, "I did once," it's clear that all Jack has ever wanted in this life is to be with Ennis. The only reason he went to Mexico looking for prostitutes and the only reason he started a relationship with Randall was to distract himself and numb the pain of being apart from Ennis. If Ennis had listened to him from the beginning, then Jack would have been faithful and committed to him forever. Jack's love for Ennis never diminished in the slightest. Any other relationship he had was completely meaningless. He had only one soulmate, and he only loved one person and that's Ennis. And all those years Jack had kept up hope that one day Ennis would listen to him, but during their last meeting in 1982, Jack realized how much time they'd lost living like this, and looked back with frustration and regret at what could have been, and what should have been. It was at that point that his hope for that life with Ennis where they didn't have to be apart began to fade, and although it could never fade completely, Jack felt weary of trying to get through to Ennis. He knew that Ennis wanted the same thing he wanted, he knew Ennis loved him as much as he loved him, but he felt that Ennis would always let his fear control his life and because of that it had deprived them of being together all the time, Ennis's fear had deprived them of being fully happy, and condemned them to living for the few times each year they could see each other, instead of living with each other and waking up to each other every day of the year. If Jack had lived, there is still no doubt that they would have continued seeing each other several times a year, and Jack would have continued trying to get Ennis to listen to him, because while his hope of that sweet life had diminished, it could never fade away completely. The sad thing is how Ennis does finally get the courage and realize what he should have done a long time ago, but it is after Jack's death.

[tpe]

I do agree that in spite of his toying around with other men, Jack probably would have been monogamous and faithful to Ennis, had Ennis agreed to live together.  For me, the root of all this toying around is frustration -- as a kind of drug or alcohol to forget a problem that would not go away.  None of these peccadillos would indicate to me that Jack's love was wearing out, IMO. 

[athena0204]

I do agree that in spite of his toying around with other men, Jack probably would have been monogamous and faithful to Ennis, had Ennis agreed to live together.  For me, the root of all this toying around is frustration -- as a kind of drug or alcohol to forget a problem that would not go away.  None of these peccadillos would indicate to me that Jack's love was wearing out, IMO. 

Very well said. That's a great analogy. I've always seen it this way too. Jack used these meaningless relationships with other men to numb the immense pain and frustration of being apart from Ennis, and being a prisoner of not living the life he wanted with him, very much like someone would use drugs or alcohol to numb their pain and temporarily not have to deal with that pain. All Jack ever wanted was Ennis, and all he needed was Ennis. And had Ennis listened to him, he would always be completely faithful and loyal to him.

[atalley]

The last time they see each other, when Ennis tells Jack he can't meet him in August because he has to work and then tells him if he has a better idea, and Jack replies, "I did once," it's clear that all Jack has ever wanted in this life is to be with Ennis. The only reason he went to Mexico looking for prostitutes and the only reason he started a relationship with Randall was to distract himself and numb the pain of being apart from Ennis. If Ennis had listened to him from the beginning, then Jack would have been faithful and committed to him forever. Jack's love for Ennis never diminished in the slightest. Any other relationship he had was completely meaningless. He had only one soulmate, and he only loved one person and that's Ennis. And all those years Jack had kept up hope that one day Ennis would listen to him, but during their last meeting in 1982, Jack realized how much time they'd lost living like this, and looked back with frustration and regret at what could have been, and what should have been. It was at that point that his hope for that life with Ennis where they didn't have to be apart began to fade, and although it could never fade completely, Jack felt weary of trying to get through to Ennis. He knew that Ennis wanted the same thing he wanted, he knew Ennis loved him as much as he loved him, but he felt that Ennis would always let his fear control his life and because of that it had deprived them of being together all the time, Ennis's fear had deprived them of being fully happy, and condemned them to living for the few times each year they could see each other, instead of living with each other and waking up to each other every day of the year. If Jack had lived, there is still no doubt that they would have continued seeing each other several times a year, and Jack would have continued trying to get Ennis to listen to him, because while his hope of that sweet life had diminished, it could never fade away completely. The sad thing is how Ennis does finally get the courage and realize what he should have done a long time ago, but it is after Jack's death.

Very good ideas...I completely agree!

[atalley]

I don't think Ennis blamed himself, nor is he to be blamed for Jack's death (whether by accident or murder). My impression of Ennis as portrayed by Heath is someone who was grieving for the loss of someone he loved, for the opportunity to love and be loved, because by the time he sent the postcard to Jack, he dumped Cassie and was ready to face this thing with no reins, this thing he finally had a name, love. It's why the screenwriters injected the diner scene. It makes the scene in Lightning Flats more poignant.

In a sense, the Ennis that went to Lightning Flats was the Ennis that Jack met, the reticent, quiet, withdrawn, polite, dutiful, follow the rules Ennis that would not stir trouble. The trauma of Jack's death, not unlike the trauma of losing his parents at an early age, put him back to familiar territory, the withdrawn cowboy. That's why he suffered in silence when the old man bullied him with the Randall bits. He was angry, he was hurt, but he did nothing, and suffered in silence as he always did...gotta stand it if you can't fix it. But fortunately, Jack's Ma stepped in, as she must have done often with Jack, placed a gentle compassionate hand on his shoulder, and guided him away from the bully to find refuge upstairs, in Jack's room. She kept it like it was when he was a boy...a refuge away from the angry storm of a man.

That one scene in the kitchen was masterful and prepared the perfect scene in the bedroom. Without the confrontation with the old man, when Ennis was not placed at the depth of despair, thinking he lost Jack, not only physically, but also in love, the moment of truth, of finding those shirts would not be as powerful as it was, breaking down all the walls that kept Ennis locked up tight. The love that Ennis thought he lost, the love that he yearned for, burst forth in a moment that energized him, and perhaps for the first time in his life, he cried.

I see the light that is Jack's Ma, the angel of compassion and gentleness, and the light that is Jack's love, the love that has no end, and the light that is Ennis' devotion, the faithfulness that is singular and true.

I have been told that I see the end differently than others, and I do not apologize for it, but I also understand others' point of view.

  I hope you find peace in/from the movie, whatever you see.

 :\'( :\'(, but eventually peace.

[tpe]

Very well said. That's a great analogy. I've always seen it this way too. Jack used these meaningless relationships with other men to numb the immense pain and frustration of being apart from Ennis, and being a prisoner of not living the life he wanted with him, very much like someone would use drugs or alcohol to numb their pain and temporarily not have to deal with that pain. All Jack ever wanted was Ennis, and all he needed was Ennis. And had Ennis listened to him, he would always be completely faithful and loyal to him.

Thanks athena0204.  I do think that compared to Ennis, everyone else was "second best".  But this is perhaps a bit inaccurate.  For Jack, Ennis was the only one.  And anything else was simply a distraction.  And distractions cam in handy only when Jack became increasingly frustrated and stymied by Ennis's fears.