Author Topic: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?  (Read 23273 times)

Offline brokebacksoul

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #30 on: Dec 20, 2009, 02:08 PM »
Yes,these words can be perfectly applied to Jack's case; all his life was a fight to live fully,according to his wishes.But he wasn't ever able to accomplish them,and he died to see that he had never lived completely,and it was too late...I think that maybe this is the main tragedy of this story; dying young enough without having lived as he really wanted,and dying because of these circumstances that,ironically,had avoided him to live as he had wished... :_(
Yes, another point that is so true, MPJ :-\\

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Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #31 on: Dec 20, 2009, 02:37 PM »
Yes,and surely Jack lived because of this beautiful impossible dream.And also surely he died a little because of it.Anyhow,the "with or without you" subject is always here.

It is not all bad/sad: to die for a dream. 

Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #32 on: Dec 20, 2009, 02:53 PM »

Stumbling again over one of tpe's posts ;)
It's just ... that I've been haunted by these Thoreau words since I watched "Dead Poets Society" years ago (and one of my favourite films since I did once)... In fact I saw DPS on TV again for the XX;-) time the day before my "first BBM night" so I guess I've been in a special mood anyway ;) But I never had these words in mind related to Jack %&) .. It's perfect, so thank you, tpe, for sharing this thought...

Oh dear.  I LOVE that movie!  I had encountered Thoreau before watching DPS, but when I watched it in the theater ages ago, it definitely gave added depth to the passage.  So it is here to, in contemplating Jack's life and death. 

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #33 on: Dec 28, 2009, 12:31 PM »
I think that Jack was always looking for LOVE,in capital letters; but he only got some little pieces of love-and sometimes of something similar to love-in his life.He took hold to Ennis not only for the love he had for him,but because he was the last opportunity to live the LOVE he felt he could have.I'm not saying that he was in love only with a ghost,an ideal,a lifetime's project...:as I told in another thread,he was in love with being in love with Ennis.I mean that he lived from,with and for the memories of the beautiful moments in BBM; and from,with and for the hopes of the possible beautiful moments he could live again with Ennis in the future.And,meanwhile,he forgot to live the present,the reality in all its splendour,maybe because this reality crashed frontally with these memories and also with these hopes.I don't know if this makes sense...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #34 on: Dec 29, 2009, 10:24 PM »
I think that early one, Jack was only willing too settle for love [in small letters] if only in the interim.  He had always hoped to make Ennis see things his (i.e., Jack's) way, and the prospect of making Ennis change was enough for him to keep on living. 

What some of us perceive to be Jack's self-destructive tendencies stems from the gradual erosion of that hope for change.  It was an uphill battle althroughout -- even a war of attrition, if one can think of it in these terms. 

These tendencies are manifestations of a gradual loss of hope.  It is called DESPAIR.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #35 on: Jan 21, 2010, 12:56 PM »
I think that early one, Jack was only willing too settle for love [in small letters] if only in the interim.  He had always hoped to make Ennis see things his (i.e., Jack's) way, and the prospect of making Ennis change was enough for him to keep on living. 

What some of us perceive to be Jack's self-destructive tendencies stems from the gradual erosion of that hope for change.  It was an uphill battle althroughout -- even a war of attrition, if one can think of it in these terms. 

These tendencies are manifestations of a gradual loss of hope.  It is called DESPAIR.

Yes,I agree in that the possibility of making Ennis change his mind was enough for Jack to keep on living-letting aside the fact of loving and feeling like being with the beloved person,that's enough for anybody as to be alive,but not always to feel alive...-.But I think that from the rejection scene after the long driving journey onwards,something very deep changed inside Jack.I'd dare to say that,little by little,his longing for living with Ennis disappeared to give place to the simple wish of being by his side,without anything else; because he realised then that their wishes would never come true.And when things are like that,more often than advisable,one is vegetating more than living. And from here to not taking so much care of oneself,sometimes a little step goes...As you call it: despair.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #36 on: Jan 21, 2010, 09:20 PM »
I don't know whether the longing for the sweet life began to disappear at that point.  It's possible.  But I would just want to think of this as jack realizing that it was going to be a war of attrition, as far as their wills were concerned.  This also made Jack perhaps try out casual sex and drinking as a means of forgetting. 

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #37 on: Jan 22, 2010, 12:05 PM »
I don't know whether the longing for the sweet life began to disappear at that point.  It's possible.  But I would just want to think of this as jack realizing that it was going to be a war of attrition, as far as their wills were concerned.  This also made Jack perhaps try out casual sex and drinking as a means of forgetting. 

I have always thought that all his wishes began to vanish at that point; at least,it's clearly when he begins to realise that this wasn't going to be a hard task.It was going to be an impossible task,being Ennis as he was.So,yes,surely sex and drinking was a way I don't know if of forgetting,or simply of feeling a little better for a while escaping from reality.If he was able to escape,of course... :-\\
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #38 on: Jan 23, 2010, 12:51 PM »
I have always thought that all his wishes began to vanish at that point; at least,it's clearly when he begins to realise that this wasn't going to be a hard task.It was going to be an impossible task,being Ennis as he was.So,yes,surely sex and drinking was a way I don't know if of forgetting,or simply of feeling a little better for a while escaping from reality.If he was able to escape,of course... :-\\

So you think that it was at that point that Jack began settling for second best?  I do agree that after that, the seeds of discontent did start to grow, and compromise became shadowed by a feeling that neither of them were getting what they really wanted.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #39 on: Jan 24, 2010, 01:26 PM »
So you think that it was at that point that Jack began settling for second best?  I do agree that after that, the seeds of discontent did start to grow, and compromise became shadowed by a feeling that neither of them were getting what they really wanted.

 ~) I agree with the second part of your post; it was the very moment when specially Jack began to feel disappointed and see clearly that he would never accomplish his wishes.But I don't understand what you mean with Jack began settling for second best ,so I can't answer your question...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #40 on: Jan 27, 2010, 09:49 PM »
~) I agree with the second part of your post; it was the very moment when specially Jack began to feel disappointed and see clearly that he would never accomplish his wishes.But I don't understand what you mean with Jack began settling for second best ,so I can't answer your question...

Settling for second best means that he settles for forces himself to be contented with something else -- the next best thing.  In this case, it would have been Randall...

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #41 on: Jan 28, 2010, 10:51 AM »
Settling for second best means that he settles for forces himself to be contented with something else -- the next best thing.  In this case, it would have been Randall...

I don't know if it was more a way of satisfying himself-and I'm not talking about only sex...-and for this reason,choosing something else-because he realised the first one would never be for him,as he really wanted him to be-.Or it was a way of escaping himself from reality; in Randall's case,a way to try and feel himself well in another man's arms,if this could serve to forget Ennis-or at least,not having him so present everywhere and every time-.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #42 on: Jan 28, 2010, 01:33 PM »
When Ennis phones Lureen in order to know what has happenned to Jack,she says when talking about BBM:-
Well, he said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk. He drank a lot.
And yes,it's sure that he drunk,I don't know if until the extreme of being drunk; they say that people drink in order to "forget"...Did,then Jack drink to forget the reality of his life?.What's more: Did he drink enough as to destroy little by little his health and,therefore,his own life?.
I'd said more;somebody has told that he was so opened in his sexual tendencies that even he took some dangers; the dangers Ennis wanted to avoid  being more protective and also closer in himself than Jack.Maybe he arrived to a point in his life when he,simply,didn't mind if somebody could discover his tendencies or not...and the consequences this could have for him?.
Jack was a person who was always looking for love and never found it completely:neither at home,when his mother's love and affection wasn't enough to hide the pain that a sever father could cause in a young mind; nor at his own home,with a cold wife who showed him as one more of her prizes and company profits; even nor with an Ennis who was spending all his time-their time-running away from this "sweet life"and,more than often,from Jack himself.Maybe the reason of his taking risks wasn't that he was open enough as not to worry if people knew it or not; maybe the reason was being too tired of living that way and,therefore,a unconscious wish of ending.Had Jack,then,some self-destructive tendencies?.            

Interesting questions. I just found this topic and joining late. My response is that Jack was not self-destructive deliberately. He had no intention to destroy the life, as pitiful as it was, with Lureen and with Ennis. He may have said, "I wish I knew how to quit you." But he could never quit Ennis. The life with Lureen was destroyed that moment when old man Newsom threw 'em keys at rodeo and put him down, and all 'em other times. No man was good enough for his little girl. When Jack stood up to the old man that Thanksgiving, Lureen smiled and was happy.

Jack drank a lot because even with the good life he had in Texas, his life was empty without meaning without Ennis. He drank to forget the sweet life he could have, the sweet life he had every few times each year when he drove 'em fourteen hours each way to be with the love of his life. He wouldn't do anything to jeopardize that. He want that sweet life too much.

We really don't know much more about the "risks" he took in Mexico or with Randall. The gas station scene was deleted, in part I believe, because Ang Lee wanted to stay true to the words in the short story. It is one thing to put flesh on the bones of the raw words in the short story. It is another to change the height and dimensions of the characters. Jack may or may not have been taking more risks with Randall. He may or may not have been murdered.

One thing was true, about Jack wanting to bring Randall up to Lightning Flat. We don't know much more about that relationship, but it is no more self-destructive than going to Mexico. It was what men with pent-up desires and no place to go would do. In 'em old days, back before Stonewall and liberation, there were not many places for gay men to meet. It was risky no matter what Jack did, if he wanted to live life true to his feelings. He preferred to take the risk living the sweet life with Ennis, but when it got real bad, since he ain't like Ennis, he would go and do whatever it takes. Drinking a lot was the usual way.

It maybe even true, that at the end, after the final confrontation, in despair and pain and even hopelessness, Jack finally accepted the futility of waiting for Ennis to share the sweet life (hence the comment to his Pa about Randall) and got subconsciously sloppy with his car, or with hiding his tracks, or whatever. Perhaps that is why he was okay driving all 'em distances all 'em years and never a problem, then ending his life on a lonely dirt road while changing a flat.  :(

So, no, I don't think Jack had any self-destructive tendencies, until perhaps the final moments in his life, if he wasn't murdered. If he was murdered, then I may go further and say that he never was self-destructive...he loved life, and Ennis, too much to quit it and him.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline buckskinbronc

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #43 on: Jan 29, 2010, 12:31 AM »
Well said, Andrew.  I tend to agree with your analysis. 
Maybe there's a God above
but all I've ever learned from love
is how to shoot someone who out drew ya
and it's not a cry that you hear at night
it's not someone who's seen the light
It's a call and it's a broken Hallelujah

l. cohen

Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #44 on: Jan 29, 2010, 10:53 PM »
I don't know if it was more a way of satisfying himself-and I'm not talking about only sex...-and for this reason,choosing something else-because he realised the first one would never be for him,as he really wanted him to be-.Or it was a way of escaping himself from reality; in Randall's case,a way to try and feel himself well in another man's arms,if this could serve to forget Ennis-or at least,not having him so present everywhere and every time-.

Perhaps he only thought of Randall as more willing or more likely to share the sweet life with him.  Perhaps this was simply out of desperation.  It is during such moments of desperation that we see Jack close to being self-destructive and reckless... or even out of control?

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #45 on: Jan 30, 2010, 01:47 PM »
Perhaps he only thought of Randall as more willing or more likely to share the sweet life with him.  Perhaps this was simply out of desperation.  It is during such moments of desperation that we see Jack close to being self-destructive and reckless... or even out of control?

I don't know what name one can give to Jack's feelings...What I think is that living half one's life without seeing accomplished not only one's deepest and greatest wishes: but one's own project of living,how,when,where and who live it with,it's enough to feel clearly desperate at the end.And from this situation until to feel more careless of everything about oneself-from his own physical look to some dangerous behaviours even-there's sometimes a little step.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #46 on: Jan 30, 2010, 06:30 PM »
Yes, it was as if after the collapse of his plans/dreams, he didn't really care anymore what would happen.  The risk-taking certainly was with him even before the realization that the sweet life would not come easily, if at all.  But after the realization, it became a way of life.  The Juarez episode illustrates this.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #47 on: Jan 31, 2010, 03:39 PM »
Yes, it was as if after the collapse of his plans/dreams, he didn't really care anymore what would happen.  The risk-taking certainly was with him even before the realization that the sweet life would not come easily, if at all.  But after the realization, it became a way of life.  The Juarez episode illustrates this.

The case is that all Jack's world was collapsing or had collapsed even much before this realization;beginning with a father who never accepted the way he was and never gave him the trust in himself that he needed.We could really talk about Jack in terms of being a loser,because never a single facet of his life developed and finished the way he wanted and needed.Surely when things are like that,the person who suffers this looses a great part of one's hope in a better future and,as consequence,of one's care in daily life,even if it's unconsciously.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #48 on: Feb 04, 2010, 10:10 PM »
The case is that all Jack's world was collapsing or had collapsed even much before this realization;beginning with a father who never accepted the way he was and never gave him the trust in himself that he needed.We could really talk about Jack in terms of being a loser,because never a single facet of his life developed and finished the way he wanted and needed.Surely when things are like that,the person who suffers this looses a great part of one's hope in a better future and,as consequence,of one's care in daily life,even if it's unconsciously.

I think a great deal of this had to deal with immense frustration with life and with Ennis in particular.  I think this frustration bred recklessness on jack's part...  Part of a "devil-may-care" attitude...

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #49 on: Feb 05, 2010, 12:11 PM »
I think a great deal of this had to deal with immense frustration with life and with Ennis in particular.  I think this frustration bred recklessness on jack's part...  Part of a "devil-may-care" attitude...

Yes,I agree in everything ¡. :clap:
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #50 on: Feb 05, 2010, 09:45 PM »
I really feel empathy for Jack on this score.  The problem is that he couldn't get to his goal of a sweet life without Ennis, and it was not entirely up to him to reach that goal.  Being stymied must have exerted considerable mental and emotional stress.  This bred a kind of escapism, as well as the kind of recklessness that we already spoken about...

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #51 on: Feb 06, 2010, 05:06 PM »
I really feel empathy for Jack on this score.  The problem is that he couldn't get to his goal of a sweet life without Ennis, and it was not entirely up to him to reach that goal.  Being stymied must have exerted considerable mental and emotional stress.  This bred a kind of escapism, as well as the kind of recklessness that we already spoken about...

I think any person who feels deeply frustrated in one's greatest and most loving goals in life ends by having some half-destructive tendencies,although unconscious most of the time.Like these ones who smoke too much because "they feel too nervous and smoking calms them".As a matter of fact,it's the same;it's a rather long process of suicide without realising,if you allow me to call it that way...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Had Jack some self-destructive tendencies?
« Reply #52 on: Feb 06, 2010, 09:32 PM »
I agree, many people who feel frustrated act precisely this way.  many people argue that in the old days, many gay men had a lot of "issues" precisely because they felt that led very unfulfilled and frustrated lives.  Whether this is true or not is beside the point.  It simply highlights that fact that people who feel unfulfilled are likely to react in an opposing direction.

And yes, it is a form of a death wish, I guess...