Topic: Two similar scenes (spoiler)

[vedrana]

Yes,I agree in that their respective lack of a real affection-in spite of Mrs.Twist love for his son,his father was a good and effective counter balance-was one of the main reasons for being better and more quickly connected as a friends in a first moment.In DE scene we see how Ennis treats Jack with the love and care his mother had for him when he was a child; he wanted in that moment to pass his love from a person of his past-his mother-to a person of his present-Jack-.And Jack receives this behaviour keeping it in his heart during the rest of his life,because Ennis was then the only person who cares for him and loves him in a whole sense,not only the sexual one.

DE is a mixture of many feelings. I believe that the emphasis is on Ennis' wish to be loved as a boy, where he takes his mother role and pass his love to Jack who at that moment represents himself -Ennis. That's why this scene is so difficult to absorb. When Ennis saw Jack standing there, almost sleeping, he saw himself and wanted to embrace a love needing boy - Ennis. And he embraced Jack - the other one who also needed love, and whom he loved the most in the world... Well... something like that! It is complicated, but it is beautiful.   And sad!  :\'(

[tpe]

I believe that both Ennis' and Jack's misfortune childhood was one of the reasons why they connection/chemistry was so powerful. The DE showed all their childhood hunger for love - Ennis' showed it through seeing Jack as himself as a boy, and Jack showed it by keeping the DE as a most powerful memory from Brokeback!

Yes,I agree in that their respective lack of a real affection-in spite of Mrs.Twist love for his son,his father was a good and effective counter balance-was one of the main reasons for being better and more quickly connected as a friends in a first moment.In DE scene we see how Ennis treats Jack with the love and care his mother had for him when he was a child; he wanted in that moment to pass his love from a person of his past-his mother-to a person of his present-Jack-.And Jack receives this behaviour keeping it in his heart during the rest of his life,because Ennis was then the only person who cares for him and loves him in a whole sense,not only the sexual one.

It is indeed interesting to note that the DE connected with just that: the experience of love in an otherwise unhappy childhood.

[Godfather420]

How about when you see young Ennis have to look at the dead guy in the ditch and Jack
says "you seen this?"  Later jack sees it first hand.

[ksxks]

How about when you see young Ennis have to look at the dead guy in the ditch and Jack
says "you seen this?"  Later jack sees it first hand.

Excellent point, godfather.  A tragic similarity...

And a big welcome to you!

kathy

[tpe]

How about when you see young Ennis have to look at the dead guy in the ditch and Jack
says "you seen this?"  Later jack sees it first hand.

Excellent point, godfather.  A tragic similarity...

And a big welcome to you!

kathy

yes, an excellent point.  Perhaps a premonition of things to come?

[atalley]

DE is a mixture of many feelings. I believe that the emphasis is on Ennis' wish to be loved as a boy, where he takes his mother role and pass his love to Jack who at that moment represents himself -Ennis. That's why this scene is so difficult to absorb. When Ennis saw Jack standing there, almost sleeping, he saw himself and wanted to embrace a love needing boy - Ennis. And he embraced Jack - the other one who also needed love, and whom he loved the most in the world... Well... something like that! It is complicated, but it is beautiful.   And sad!  :\'(

WOW Loreen...I never thought of it that way. 

[jackster]

Morning after SNIT (maybe):


Wrestle (then fight) on BBM:


Ennis does kiss Jack in first scene, would like to kiss him in the second, but is too confused?
Both highly erotic IMHO. Whataya' think?

[vedrana]

Morning after SNIT (maybe):


Wrestle (then fight) on BBM:


Ennis does kiss Jack in first scene, would like to kiss him in the second, but is too confused?
Both highly erotic IMHO. Whataya' think?

Yup! Highly! 

The second one is shadowed by the sad end though.

The relation of wrestling and caressing was like an obverse to the relation of silence and love statement. It was easier for them to wrestle than to show tenderness (in the open space), as well as it was easier to say: "You don't know how bad it gets" or "It's because of you Jack...", than to say :"I love you, you dumbass!"

Never open to each other enough!

And now I really now does this make sense at all!

[myprivatejack]

Yup! Highly! 

The second one is shadowed by the sad end though.

The relation of wrestling and caressing was like an obverse to the relation of silence and love statement. It was easier for them to wrestle than to show tenderness (in the open space), as well as it was easier to say: "You don't know how bad it gets" or "It's because of you Jack...", than to say :"I love you, you dumbass!"

Never open to each other enough!

And now I really now does this make sense at all!

I agree with you that for both of them it was easier to act than to speak in love's matters.However,in this concret case,the struggle in the second pic is more a relief from the nervous breakdown of the situation than a way of showing something that words couldn't demonstrate.Even if it's true what they say that from love to hate there's only few steps...

[tpe]

Very good comparison, jackster!

Can I suggest a third one sort of "similar" to the other 2?  The final collapse in the Last Confrontation.  It seems like hugging and wrestling all at the same time...

[vedrana]

Very good comparison, jackster!

Can I suggest a third one sort of "similar" to the other 2?  The final collapse in the Last Confrontation.  It seems like hugging and wrestling all at the same time...

That was more like a convulsion with only a hint of wrestling. IMHO, that is...

I'd rather put the reunion kiss in the category of wrestling than FC hug...   would you agree? Even, that is also a long shot......

[jackster]

Very good comparison, jackster!
Can I suggest a third one sort of "similar" to the other 2?  The final collapse in the Last Confrontation.  It seems like hugging and wrestling all at the same time...

Yes thomas and loreen (sorry loreen forgot to add your name here too ), right on. I know as a fact that for a lot of males this very true. It is a murky line between the two, many guys become quite, shall we say, "excited" during wrestling matches, I've no doubt Ennis was feelin' somewhat the same here. Grappling around on the ground, turning and flipping, grabbing and grasping, holding and squeezing - are we talking love or battle (or both)? I surely believe Ennis, like Annie says, going "full throttle" as he did, really didn't make much distinction between the two. FNIT with Jack or a night in bed with Alma, lots of other examples.

For me this is one of the really intriguing aspects of Ennis's personality, his blurring of this line. I think it's (one aspect) of what makes Heath's Ennis so sexy, this somewhat animalistic drive - it's like watching a fire burn (a campfire say) - sometimes you can't take your eyes off it, it enchants you. For me its also what makes SNIT all the more powerful, when this drive is seemingly turned on its head and becomes a need. Oh yeah.

[tpe]

That was more like a convulsion with only a hint of wrestling. IMHO, that is...

I'd rather put the reunion kiss in the category of wrestling than FC hug...   would you agree? Even, that is also a long shot......

Interesting.  I would add the reunion kiss.  But I would think that Last Confrontation was equally reminiscent... 

[tpe]

Yes thomas, right on. I know as a fact that for a lot of males this very true. It is a murky line between the two, many guys become quite, shall we say, "excited" during wrestling matches, I've no doubt Ennis was feelin' somewhat the same here. Grappling around on the ground, turning and flipping, grabbing and grasping, holding and squeezing - are we talking love or battle (or both)? I surely believe Ennis, like Annie says, going "full throttle" as he did, really didn't make much distinction between the two. FNIT with Jack or a night in bed with Alma, lots of other examples.

For me this is one of the really intriguing aspects of Ennis's personality, his blurring of this line. I think it's (one aspect) of what makes Heath's Ennis so sexy, this somewhat animalistic drive - it's like watching a fire burn (a campfire say) - sometimes you can't take your eyes off it, it enchants you. For me its also what makes SNIT all the more powerful, when this drive is seemingly turned on its head and becomes a need. Oh yeah.

I think you explained my thoughts better.  In the embrace of the last confrontation, it was largely static, but you can feel the tension in the grasp -- and a static equilibrium could be very unstable in that a slight change in the balance could flip things over.

Animalistic in the sense of being driven by instinct/intuition, I suppose.  And feeling -- explosive feeling -- of course.

   

[vedrana]

Interesting.  I would add the reunion kiss.  But I would think that Last Confrontation was equally reminiscent... 

Hm... jackster mentioned FNIT - oh yeah! That is, but FC... ... I don't see it. In FC the things were not supposed to heat up,but to calm down ... Ennis's convulsion was so disturbing and painful for Jack to watch that he neglected his own pain (as always  ) and comforted Ennis. Not much of the freedom and spontaneity as other occasions- including FNIT and passion of the reunion kiss. Just MO!

The roughness of the wrestling was IMO a way to cover up for the tenderness they needed to share, and that's another reason why I don't see it in FC, but you guys usually see things deeper and different than I do, so I might be thoroughly wrong...

Not to mention that naughty tpe can always transfer me to the "dark side" as with LF! 

[jackster]

The roughness of the wrestling was IMO a way to cover up for the tenderness they needed to share, and that's another reason why I don't see it in FC,

Agree 100% here loreen. Think Ennis was one of those (or maybe I should say "us") that has a difficult time bein' or a least showin' - tenderness. Too afraid it's the same as showin' weakness. Well, it ain't, but that's another topic. This is one of the interesting, or one might say intriguing, aspects of same sex relationships, either male or (I suppose) female. When there ain't no reins on the thing, and it ain't so defined by society expectations, you gotta' make it up as you go along and try and make sure the other party understands things the way you do. No easy task. Ennis & Jack had a difficult time here no doubt. Are we two fu**in' warriors, or, two warriors fu**in'? Maybe both huh? Can be a tough picture to make sense of for two men, one of the reasons (IMO) that this story is so compelling. Amazin' to me that Annie realized this and was able to turn it into such a masterpiece.

[tpe]

Well, it's not that any of us see things deeper.  It's just that each of as has his/her unique point of view. 

It also very much depends on our own personal experiences, ot similar instances in our own lives, I guess?

[vedrana]

Well, it's not that any of us see things deeper.  It's just that each of as has his/her unique point of view. 

It also very much depends on our own personal experiences, ot similar instances in our own lives, I guess?

I guess so! 

[tpe]

I guess so! 

There is certainly no one way of looking at things -- even though certain POVs/interpretations may be more "accepted" than others. 

[jackster]

"See ya' for supper" - Jack says, looking up to Ennis just after FNIT as Ennis rides away.

"You come back and see us again" Jack's ma says, looking up to Ennis as he gets ready to leave their house.

A remarkable similarity here between mother and son, saying pretty much the same thing to the same man - No matter what you think, how you may feel, rest assured I love you and want to see you again. I don't know if this was intentional on the part of the actors or director, but they, Jake and Roberta, exude very much the same feeling here to me, the way these words are expressed makes it feel like they really were mother and son. MHO.

[tpe]

"See ya' for supper" - Jack says, looking up to Ennis just after FNIT as Ennis rides away.

"You come back and see us again" Jack's ma says, looking up to Ennis as he gets ready to leave their house.

A remarkable similarity here between mother and son, saying pretty much the same thing to the same man - No matter what you think, how you may feel, rest assured I love you and want to see you again. I don't know if this was intentional on the part of the actors or director, but they, Jake and Roberta, exude very much the same feeling here to me, the way these words are expressed makes it feel like they really were mother and son. MHO.

Wonderful comparison, Jackster.  Yes, I do agree that both were expressions of deep reassurance... and love, IMO...

[myprivatejack]

Wonderful comparison, Jackster.  Yes, I do agree that both were expressions of deep reassurance... and love, IMO...

I agree in everything.As a matter of fact,the three of them were tied for deep bonds of comprehension and love.

[tpe]

I agree in everything.As a matter of fact,the three of them were tied for deep bonds of comprehension and love.

Although the comprehension was implicit and never truly out in the open, it doesn not diminish it's "REAL-NESS" and power...  It was deep below the surface of things.

[jorae]

I read every post....and no one noticed....

THE BLOODY SHIRTS ON THE HANGER...

In the closet at the Twists farm house, the dark blue shirt (Jacks) covers the plaid shirt (Ennis')....this is the way Jack hung them on one hanger.


When Ennis opens his closet at his trailer (last scene) the shirts have been reversed...the light plaid shirt is on top and the dark blue shirt is inside...

How sweet...How romantic of an old cowboy...his was not in the book...this had to be a touch from Ang....

[myprivatejack]

I read every post....and no one noticed....

THE BLOODY SHIRTS ON THE HANGER...

In the closet at the Twists farm house, the dark blue shirt (Jacks) covers the plaid shirt (Ennis')....this is the way Jack hung them on one hanger.


When Ennis opens his closet at his trailer (last scene) the shirts have been reversed...the light plaid shirt is on top and the dark blue shirt is inside...

How sweet...How romantic of an old cowboy...his was not in the book...this had to be a touch from Ang....

As a matter of fact,this has been talked about in any other place of this forum;even if I think it's more proper to add it in the "Double meanings" thread than in it,if you allow me...Because in the beginning,Jack's jacket was covering Ennis as a way to protect him,to get him safe from his fears of being attacked for their relationship;and,in the end,they have been changed because Ennis wants,somehow,to give Jack in the other world the protection than he hadn't given to him in this Earth world...or he had given in his own way,not wanting to share with him this "sweet life".
And,yes,it was not in the book,but it was a touch from Heath,who "entered" so much in the story and the feeling of his character that wanted to put the shirts in this way.He gave us a hint of his talent,doubtless...  

[jorae]

At the time the movie was being made, Heath and Michelle started their love affair...I think when you are feeling that wonderful feeling, you certainly can contribute a lot of romance...

I once had a boyfriend who put our two tooth brushes togeher as if they were kissing...pushed the brissels together and left them in the bathroom cup....so cute and sweet...guys get that silly love feeling thing just as much as girls.