Topic: Men or Boys?

[mimi]

I was thinking about a post I read on the forum not long ago, about how Ennis and Jack were alway young at heart when they were on the mountain, and it got me thinking...

Were our tw heroes really the strong, capable men they projected themselves to be in the eye of society, or were they always the two scared, confused boys that met bac in that summer of '63?

I don't mean that they were boys as in they were "weak" or anything like that; it's like Jack thought "...Maybe they had never gotten much further than that. Let be, let be..."

They were young and very confused about who they were, and finding each other exaserbated that A LOT. But that sense of confusion doesn't leave them as they age, does it? All throughout their lives they are the same desperate souls, longing for each other but never achieving this icyllic dream.

In fact, the only real emotional evolution from the two men was really when Ennis realised the error of his ways in that trailer after Jack's death, all too late. Jack, however, was always the same: the dreamer, the hopeful.

So did Jack and Ennis change at all emotionally troughout the story, or were they always the same two youths who found love on the cold, lonely mountain asll those years ago...?

[myprivatejack]

I think that both of them were able to adapt themselves to their new lives and responsibilities according to years passing;they knew for sure than being a 30 something husband and father is not the same than being two young men in the last years of their adolescence,with the freedom that being kind of uprooted allowed them.In this sense,they were what we would call "two sensible,mature and adult men".
But I have always thought that part of them remained forever on the mountain,because this memory were somehow what made them feel alive and stand their real lives better.In this sense,they were always and forever the same scared and confused boys who fell in love in the mountain -more in Ennis case,of course...-.I remember having said in another post that when we are not happy with our present lives,we tend to live much more than would be advisable daydreaming in the times we really were.And it's sure than they needed to hang on to these daydreams and these memories to survive the long times of separation.You say that Jack was always the same:the dreamer,the hopeful... I don't think this is a sign of immaturity,but only a characteristic treat of his way of being.However,where both of them were similar is in this feeling of being uprooted the same at 19 than at 40;in the first case,because they were looking and longing for a real love,in the second one,because they couldn't live this love they had found to the fully in an environment they felt they didn't belong to...
And yes,you're right:the only real emotional evolution was Ennis coming to terms to his past and present feelings and committing himself with his beloved beings in the future.But as it almost always happens,when it was too late...

[lancecowboy]

I was thinking about a post I read on the forum not long ago, about how Ennis and Jack were alway young at heart when they were on the mountain, and it got me thinking...

Were our tw heroes really the strong, capable men they projected themselves to be in the eye of society, or were they always the two scared, confused boys that met bac in that summer of '63?

I don't mean that they were boys as in they were "weak" or anything like that; it's like Jack thought "...Maybe they had never gotten much further than that. Let be, let be..."

They were young and very confused about who they were, and finding each other exaserbated that A LOT. But that sense of confusion doesn't leave them as they age, does it? All throughout their lives they are the same desperate souls, longing for each other but never achieving this icyllic dream.

In fact, the only real emotional evolution from the two men was really when Ennis realised the error of his ways in that trailer after Jack's death, all too late. Jack, however, was always the same: the dreamer, the hopeful.

So did Jack and Ennis change at all emotionally troughout the story, or were they always the same two youths who found love on the cold, lonely mountain asll those years ago...?

Great post, mimi.  I think you have pointed out a crucial aspect of the movie and their relationship.

I think Jack did evolve in the story, and that crucial point came at the Thanksgiving dinner when he stood up to old man Newsome. That's when he realized that he was no longer the poor young lad from the farm that could be pushed around like he was all his life, by his bullying old man, by people like Aquierre, or those customers with snide remarks, or those rodeo clowns. He realized after the old man Newsome back down, that he could push back, and people would take notice. That's when, in my opinion, Jack wanted more from Ennis, and felt the situation was unsatisfactory.

Ennis, on the other hand, is exactly as you said, unchanged and un-evolved emotionally until Jack's death. Then he made up for it in leaps and bounds, first at the diner with Cassie, and then at Lightning Flats. That's Ennis for you...steady as he goes, until he needs to move, then, as Annie said in the short story, he moves lightning quick.

[Tony]

  Am not sure if it was Wordsworth, but the poem went...".....the child is father of the man."  If that is true, it may also be true that the youthful adventure of finding each other, lonely as they were, on the mountain, stayed young within them.
  I have, myself, always felt, we should keep the spirit of our younger days always with us, or we grow stale. Had they grown, any, emotionally? IMO, yes. But I also think they kept some part of themselves forever young, including those first emotions, however new they were to them.  I hope that makes sense.

[mimi]

Great post, mimi.  I think you have pointed out a crucial aspect of the movie and their relationship.

I think Jack did evolve in the story, and that crucial point came at the Thanksgiving dinner when he stood up to old man Newsome. That's when he realized that he was no longer the poor young lad from the farm that could be pushed around like he was all his life, by his bullying old man, by people like Aquierre, or those customers with snide remarks, or those rodeo clowns. He realized after the old man Newsome back down, that he could push back, and people would take notice. That's when, in my opinion, Jack wanted more from Ennis, and felt the situation was unsatisfactory.

Ennis, on the other hand, is exactly as you said, unchanged and un-evolved emotionally until Jack's death. Then he made up for it in leaps and bounds, first at the diner with Cassie, and then at Lightning Flats. That's Ennis for you...steady as he goes, until he needs to move, then, as Annie said in the short story, he moves lightning quick.

[/b]

Thanks Lance, and amazing post 

You're very right about Jack's evolution when he finally had enough of L.D. and stood up for himself, earning the man's respect or at leats just shutting him up!!!   

And as for Ennis, well, you really hit the nail on the head! He was like a rock when it came to big changes; he wouldn't budge. He didn't even want to move to Riverton. I think that his fear of change probably stemmed from his own insecurities and self-doubt. He wasn't comfortable in his own skin, and so any form of change disgruntled him.

Thanks again for your always-wise insight 

[lancecowboy]

Thanks Lance, and amazing post  

You're very right about Jack's evolution when he finally had enough of L.D. and stood up for himself, earning the man's respect or at leats just shutting him up!!!    

And as for Ennis, well, you really hit the nail on the head! He was like a rock when it came to big changes; he wouldn't budge. He didn't even want to move to Riverton. I think that his fear of change probably stemmed from his own insecurities and self-doubt. He wasn't comfortable in his own skin, and so any form of change disgruntled him.

Thanks again for your always-wise insight  

You are more than welcome, mimi. Talking about Ennis and Jack brings out the best in me. Thank you for resurrecting many threads and bringing new perspectives to the movie.

I agree with you about Ennis being like a rock, hard to move and hard to budge. I never thought much about his insecurities and self-doubt, but I think you are right. He was more afraid of the unknown, and preferred to settle with what little he got. While Jack saw possibilities in the unknown and new, Ennis saw potential danger and loss. That's the difference that their different childhood experiences made in their characters. Jack with a loving Ma who in many ways protected him from his cruel old man; Ennis lost both parents, after one of them instilled the fear of death at a young age, perhaps even causing no small amount of guilt. After all, they ran off that curve in the road just when Ennis was around that age when he would learn about sexuality, and stemming the rose, experimenting etc. If seeing Earl mutilated in the ditch didn't shut him up in his shell, the guilt over his parents' death sure would have.

One thing about Ennis, though. He may be the big unmovable rock, but once the rock starts rolling, there is no stopping him. Just like SNIT, it takes Ennis a while to get up and go, but once he made up his mind, there is no stopping him. No stud duck spitting into his coffee was going to keep him from taking the two shirts home with him, or even keep him from taking Jack's ashes up to Brokeback Mountain one day.

As Jackster said, the Ennis that was moved to tears in Jack's closet, was transformed into a warrior ready to fight for his love. Fast or slow, Ennis/Heath   ... there is no denying it.