Topic: Maybe you're a sinner

[tpe]

Quoting from my earlier post...

"Sex in conservative circles was taboo even to talk about back then..."

I guess I should have said that sex was more taboo to talk about than to perform. It was not long ago in America that a movie could show many killings and get a PG. It could show people having sex (as long as there was no frontal nudity, or maybe a breast or two, and some other limitations) and get a PG.

However, a single use of the word "f*ck" would get it an R.

(These rules are no longer in effect, especially since PG-13 came in between the two ratings.)

And since Ennis is so shy, his use of a transparent code to talk about his (lack of) sexual experience--and show interest in Jack's sexual experience--by saying "You may be a sinner..." was a very big step.

Perhaps he wanted Jack to admit to and elaborate on his own sexual expereinces?  It is human nature (frailty?) that we typically show interest in the sex lives of those who attract us.  (Is this Gore Vidal I am paraphrasing indirectly here?)

[welshwitch]

I'm not paraphrasing, enles it's me, but it's true that one often talks about sex with someone one might consider becoming sexually involved with. That's what this conversation is all about.

[tpe]

Then I do think this was as close Ennis would have dared to go to a discussion with Jack about sexual experiences...

[edgar]

Then I do think this was as close Ennis would have dared to go to a discussion with Jack about sexual experiences...

Yes. And the key word is "dared." He's really taking a chance here.

Interestingly, it is easier for Ennis to talk about his parents' deaths that about sex.

[welshwitch]

Well, what are the topics you avoid if you don't want to get into arguments? Politics? Money? Religion? Sex and death are different taboos, I think, and there's no problem in telling someone your parents were killed in an accident. In the ss Jack tells Ennis all about his father's abusive treatment, which today we'd consider a difficult topic at the very least, but it's not controversial. And there's no problem joking about something that doesn't openly refer to sex - you can always say you meant something else if it looks as if it's going to cause trouble. Suggestiveness is a constant, in literature as in life.

[aintfoolin]

The eyes are the window to the soul.   In the end as in alot of scenes in this movie, the eyes say everything words are not always needed. if Ennis had'nt said a word in this scene , his eyes say it all. I feel this leaves no doubt that Ennis finds Jack sexually attractive in this scene.

[tpe]

I think it is always difficult in the beginning to talk frankly about sex with a person who is the object of your very own desire. 

A related difficulty was explained to me by a straight friend some time ago: many straight men today have no problem with homosexuality -- until they realize that they are the object of affection.

[gimmejack]

The eyes are the window to the soul.   In the end as in alot of scenes in this movie, the eyes say everything words are not always needed. if Ennis had'nt said a word in this scene , his eyes say it all. I feel this leaves no doubt that Ennis finds Jack sexually attractive in this scene.

Excellent observation and so true aintfoolin!

[ragtimecowboy]

The eyes are the window to the soul.   In the end as in alot of scenes in this movie, the eyes say everything words are not always needed. if Ennis had'nt said a word in this scene , his eyes say it all. I feel this leaves no doubt that Ennis finds Jack sexually attractive in this scene.

In the first scene, there is a definite sizing up going on. Ennis is looking to see who the competition is for the job, and Jack is sizing Ennis up to see if he is a probable threat. He has, as is learned later in the movie worked for Joe before. The suggestive posture may well have been to suggest his Alpha stature. However, the slow sweeping gaze by Ennis pretty much shows he's picked up Jack's raw sex appeal. And what a sight that is!

[Patriot1]

Ok. I have read all the posts in this thread and some of them several times. It appears to me that most of you believe that when Ennis tells Jack he hasn't yet had the opportunity to be a sinner he is making a pass a Jack, or at the very least letting Jack know he would be interested.

I couldn't disagree more. If Ennis was interested in having sex with Jack, then why did he jump up ready to fight Jack on the first night in the tent? It was very obvious that Ennis was surprised to find his hand where it was and he did not like it. Even if Ennis wanted to have sex with Jack but did not want to be in the passive position he would have told Jack so and probably would have told him to drop his drawers.

No, Ennis was shocked and angered to find them in a sexual situation and jumped to his knees to fight Jack. But he couldn't hit his best, and only, male friend. And Jack calmed him down. Then Jack, once he knows Ennis will not hit him, takes off his coat and unbuckles his pants. Ennis, pretty well liquored up, says, ok you little faggot, you want it, I'll give it to you, and attacks Jack in a very rough, if not violent way. Ennis' sexual urge was just too great to resist the offer. The next morning he was ashamed of what he had done, and maybe a little ashamed of the way he had done it to his best friend.

So no, in my opinion all Ennis was doing when he said he wasn't a sinner was admitting to his best friend that he was a virgin. And when he looked down and away after saying it, it was out of some slight embarrassment. He was, after all, a nineteen year old male.

This scene is yet another in a series of scenes to show a growing bonding between the two boys. They talk about each others religious upbringing with Jack being a Pentecostal and Ennis being a Methodist and Ennis admits something no nineteen year old boy readily admits to another nineteen year old boy, that he is a virgin. A very deep bonding took place at that moment. Ennis showed he trusted Jack enough not to make fun of him for being a virgin. He wasn't suggesting to Jack he wanted to get it on with him.

And that is my opinion.

[CherryCake]

Good points,  Patriot I agree that this was another bonding moment for the boys.  But IMO, Jack perceived this as a pass.  How else would you explain Jack's  'hmmmm"    and little smile?

[BBBOY]

Good points,  Patriot I agree that this was another bonding moment for the boys.  But IMO, Jack perceived this as a pass.  How else would you explain Jack's  'hmmmm"    and little smile?

Good point Cherry.  It was an opening for Jack, which he took advantage of later that night.

[Cowboy Cody]

Good points,  Patriot I agree that this was another bonding moment for the boys.  But IMO, Jack perceived this as a pass.  How else would you explain Jack's  'hmmmm"    and little smile?

Cherrycake, great point, what he percieved then as a pass to act on later. Terrific analysis.

[Patriot1]

Good points,  Patriot I agree that this was another bonding moment for the boys.  But IMO, Jack perceived this as a pass.  How else would you explain Jack's  'hmmmm"    and little smile?

So as not to be judgemental. These were two 19 year old boys remember and the story tells us they did not judge the others opinions and beliefs.

Of course, Jack being experienced may have also took it as an opening also, but ennis didn't mean it as a come on.
Besides, if you reread my post you will see I was talking about Ennis and not Jack.   

[welshwitch]

I am totaly fascinated by your post, Patriot !, because I'd never seen FNIT as coming, on Ennis's side, from that sort of motivation, but of course it's completely plausible.In a sense if he sees Jack as already a sinner of sorts, then it doesn't much matter what he does to him, hence the violence, and of course he's doing the male thing, which means he's not "queer".

[gimmejack]

Ok. I have read all the posts in this thread and some of them several times. It appears to me that most of you believe that when Ennis tells Jack he hasn't yet had the opportunity to be a sinner he is making a pass a Jack, or at the very least letting Jack know he would be interested.

I couldn't disagree more. If Ennis was interested in having sex with Jack, then why did he jump up ready to fight Jack on the first night in the tent? It was very obvious that Ennis was surprised to find his hand where it was and he did not like it. Even if Ennis wanted to have sex with Jack but did not want to be in the passive position he would have told Jack so and probably would have told him to drop his drawers.

No, Ennis was shocked and angered to find them in a sexual situation and jumped to his knees to fight Jack. But he couldn't hit his best, and only, male friend. And Jack calmed him down. Then Jack, once he knows Ennis will not hit him, takes off his coat and unbuckles his pants. Ennis, pretty well liquored up, says, ok you little faggot, you want it, I'll give it to you, and attacks Jack in a very rough, if not violent way. Ennis' sexual urge was just too great to resist the offer. The next morning he was ashamed of what he had done, and maybe a little ashamed of the way he had done it to his best friend.

So no, in my opinion all Ennis was doing when he said he wasn't a sinner was admitting to his best friend that he was a virgin. And when he looked down and away after saying it, it was out of some slight embarrassment. He was, after all, a nineteen year old male.

This scene is yet another in a series of scenes to show a growing bonding between the two boys. They talk about each others religious upbringing with Jack being a Pentecostal and Ennis being a Methodist and Ennis admits something no nineteen year old boy readily admits to another nineteen year old boy, that he is a virgin. A very deep bonding took place at that moment. Ennis showed he trusted Jack enough not to make fun of him for being a virgin. He wasn't suggesting to Jack he wanted to get it on with him.

And that is my opinion.

Maybe a subconcious thing Patriot??? Not so much a come on..."I havent yet had the opportunity", but a Freusian slip?

Ennis didn't fight Jack tooth and nail that night...After all if Ennis wanted to, he could have fended him off.  I think Ennis initial reaction was a  "straight guy" conditioned response.  Which of course only lasted a couple seconds until the rawness of their attraction overcame all of that conditioned nonsense.

[edgar]

All of the "flirting," if it can even be called that, is done subtly, below the surface, perhaps even unintentionally by both characters. The sort of thing that, if the other wanted to think about it, might be a flirt or a pass, but it could also be denied if challenged.

I think Ennis especially is not necessarily reading all the signs he's being given, nor aware of the signals he may be giving out.

Ennis especially (but probably also Jack) won't even admit to himself that he might be intrigued with or infatutuated with or "have a crush on" his friend. Perhaps Ennis's "warryadoin?" and his aggressive reaction are to convince Jack--or to convince himself--that he's shocked, even if he's secretly pleased. And, I believe, he is partly shocked and partly pleased. He's still figuring out things.

[tpe]

All of the "flirting," if it can even be called that, is done subtly, below the surface, perhaps even unintentionally by both characters. The sort of thing that, if the other wanted to think about it, might be a flirt or a pass, but it could also be denied if challenged.

I think Ennis especially is not necessarily reading all the signs he's being given, nor aware of the signals he may be giving out.

Ennis especially (but probably also Jack) won't even admit to himself that he might be intrigued with or infatutuated with or "have a crush on" his friend. Perhaps Ennis's "warryadoin?" and his aggressive reaction are to convince Jack--or to convince himself--that he's shocked, even if he's secretly pleased. And, I believe, he is partly shocked and partly pleased. He's still figuring out things.

Certainly, many signs/indications throughout the movie are below the surface.  IMO, this scene is no exception.  The exact placement of the scene right before thw FNIT is not coincidental.  It establishes the necessary sexual tension that is about to be brought out in the open.  The innuendos/second meanings help establish this tension in the viewer's mind.

[welshwitch]

The word " sinner" is an interesting choice anyway - rather theological for Ennis, who doesn't seem interested in organized religion. But also nice and vague - eniability is very useful - "sinner" can. as it were, cover a multitude of sins.

[aintfoolin]

The important point is that Jack took it as a pass , and offered Ennis more firewater. The little ( hmmmmmm) from Jack confirms this.

[ksxks]

All of the "flirting," if it can even be called that, is done subtly, below the surface, perhaps even unintentionally by both characters. The sort of thing that, if the other wanted to think about it, might be a flirt or a pass, but it could also be denied if challenged.

I think Ennis especially is not necessarily reading all the signs he's being given, nor aware of the signals he may be giving out.

Ennis especially (but probably also Jack) won't even admit to himself that he might be intrigued with or infatutuated with or "have a crush on" his friend. Perhaps Ennis's "warryadoin?" and his aggressive reaction are to convince Jack--or to convince himself--that he's shocked, even if he's secretly pleased. And, I believe, he is partly shocked and partly pleased. He's still figuring out things.

Good words, Edgar.  This is more the way "reality" is after all -- we people are full of subtleties and uncertainties, and motivations aren't all clear, cut-and-dried.  Besides Ennis and Jack being young, relatively inexperienced men.  This is certainly how I would recall my 19-year-old-ness -- just learning to read signals and give them.  Especially in the not-accepted world of same-sex attractions, where Ennis at least apparently doesn't know the score.

kathy

[welshwitch]

I agree - it's hard enough trying not to put a foot wrong in a conventional situation, never mind thisone. And they were stuck together till the end of the summer if things went wrong - it's hardly surprising they move realtively slowly, at least at first.

[rane99]

  I agree there rod, Jack will age well!!

But I think Ennis definetly was flirting with Jack, what with the whiskey as a tongue lubricant, teeehee