Topic: Jack's first summer

[tea]

Hi, I found this website few days ago, and love it.  Big big Ennis and Jack fan here.   

I spent lots of time reading everyone's posts, and surely learned a lot about the movie, and watched the movie over and over again to catch all the details that I have been missing out.

I still have some questions (maybe they have been answered, but I didn't find any):
1) What happened during the first summer at Brokeback Mountain?  Was Jack up there by himself, or did he work together with another man?  If so, do you think Jack had a relationship with that man as well?  One of the post I read earlier mentioned that one reason that Jack feel in love with Ennis was because he was the only one there, only one available.  So if Jack was with another man upon there the first summer (and also the only man availble to him), did you think he made a move as well?
2)  One post mentioned that Jake and Heath are too good looking compare to the book characters.  That makes me wonder.  I could be wrong, but I just can't imaging Jack and Ennis look like how the book decribed them. 
Think about it....3 persons fell in love with Ennis - Alma, Jack, and Cassie.  Ennis met Cassie when he's around 35, and the impression I am getting from Cassie is she is in her early 20's.  So, why would a young girl feel in love with a poor, ugly (according to the book), and older (compare to her age) man, espeically the man is not paying that much attention to her.  She obviously felt him not being 100% involved in the relationship as she was, but still stayed with him for 5 years till he broke up with her.  Even after that, she still had strong feelings for him (the diner scene).  And, then, Jack.  Lureen fell in love at first sight with Jack.  And Lureen, being a wealth and attractive girl (Jack said he married the prettiest girls in Childress)...hard to see her having a crush on someone who's short, big waisted, with buckteeth.           I don't know if I am making myself clear......

[tpe]

Hello tea.  Welcome to the forum. 

1) What happened during the first summer at Brokeback Mountain?  Was Jack up there by himself, or did he work together with another man?  If so, do you think Jack had a relationship with that man as well?  One of the post I read earlier mentioned that one reason that Jack feel in love with Ennis was because he was the only one there, only one available.  So if Jack was with another man upon there the first summer (and also the only man availble to him), did you think he made a move as well?

The impression we get is that Jack was more experienced than Ennis.  What this experience constituted is certainly not clear.  It is probable that he did have something going in the summer of 62.  As was noted in another thread, Proulx did say that it was typical to send out sheep herders in pairs, and that it did invariably lead to all sorts of attachments (in fact, Proulx seemed to imply that pairs were encouraged in order that they keep each other company -- in more ways than meets the eye).   But the story is silent as to whether Jack got involved with someone else the previous summer.  This is unfortunately a question that cannot be definitively answered.

I don't think Jack was attracted to Ennis the summer of 63 because he was the only one there.  We know the attachement was deep because Jack went out of his way to search him out 4 years later.   

2)  One post mentioned that Jake and Heath are too good looking compare to the book characters.  That makes me wonder.  I could be wrong, but I just can't imaging Jack and Ennis look like how the book decribed them. 
Think about it....3 persons fell in love with Ennis - Alma, Jack, and Cassie.  Ennis met Cassie when he's around 35, and the impression I am getting from Cassie is she is in her early 20's.  So, why would a young girl feel in love with a poor, ugly (according to the book), and older (compare to her age) man, espeically the man is not paying that much attention to her.  She obviously felt him not being 100% involved in the relationship as she was, but still stayed with him for 5 years till he broke up with her.  Even after that, she still had strong feelings for him (the diner scene).  And, then, Jack.  Lureen fell in love at first sight with Jack.  And Lureen, being a wealth and attractive girl (Jack said he married the prettiest girls in Childress)...hard to see her having a crush on someone who's short, big waisted, with buckteeth.           I don't know if I am making myself clear......

I think there is nothing wrong with the less idealized representations in the short story.  Many younger and attractive people fall in love with older, more mature, and not necessarily very attractive partners -- in either heterosexual or gay contexts.  Love and attraction are complex entities.  It is not just a physical response, for sure.  Also, Cassie is really not described explicitly in the short story; the same case with Lureen.  So, we are never really sure how they looked like outside of how they were portrayed in the movie itself -- as young, fairly attractive individuals.

There are no clear answers here.  But a lot to think about.  That is wonderful. 

[lamusica]

I can't imagine what went on the summer of '62, but Jack hung around in a man's world -- rodeoing.  He had a lot of contact with men.  Being only 19 years old, he may have been the recipient of some guys' attention  in the past.  Maybe he realized he was gay, but I don't think so.  When he tells Ennis he's not gay, I think he really believes that.  Maybe, just maybe, Jack was innocent, too.  He may have had feelings for men but never acted upon them before now.

[welshwitch]

I think Jack knows exactly who and what he is - it seems to me that BBM is the first place he's ever had any meaningful relationship,involving more than the merely physical.

[ms.bluesky]

u make a good point i dont think anyone would fall in love with ugly old people so maybe i dunno

[Tom]

u make a good point i dont think anyone would fall in love with ugly old people so maybe i dunno

Aaah the folly of youth. Hey young un' I'm old.........I haven't given up on love yet as I am sure many older people and those considered ugly by those who are young or beaufiful.   

When we are chatting on this wonderful forum on it's 25 year anniversary I will remind you of this ms bluesky   

Tom

[tpe]

u make a good point i dont think anyone would fall in love with ugly old people so maybe i dunno

Aaah the folly of youth. Hey young un' I'm old.........I haven't given up on love yet as I am sure many older people and those considered ugly by those who are young or beaufiful.   

When we are chatting on this wonderful forum on it's 25 year anniversary I will remind you of this ms bluesky   

Tom

Peace everyone. 

Tom is more than right here, though.  The world is rich enough to accomodate all loves.  I have known a few couples who have been together for quite a while now, and th age gap does not seem to be an impediment to happiness.

Sorry to be slightly OOT here.

[KatKat]

In the world of love, age, appearance, nationality and even gender. are not factors

[Patriot1]

I haven't been here in so long I don't know if I have the right to welcome you but I will anyway.

1) What happened during the first summer at Brokeback Mountain?

Neither the short story or the movie give any indication as to whether Jack was alone on the mountain or with someone else. However, Annie Proulx said, in an interview, that she had talked with a Wyoming rancher and he told her he liked to send two men up onto the mountain so that if they got lonely they could poke each other.

To this old fag's mind, and for what it is worth, Jack had had previous experiences with men. I base this on his reactions and actions with Ennis. In the first night in the tent Jack thought he was going to be the aggressor. He took Ennis' hand and placed it on his crotch. He did not put his own hand on Ennis'. When Ennis took control and assaulted Jack, Jack did not fight him. This indicated to me he had been in the passive position before.

So, in my mind, Jack had had previous experiences whereas Ennis was a complete virgin but had seen enough animals to know how it was done.

2)  One post mentioned that Jake and Heath are too good looking compare to the book characters.  That makes me wonder.  I could be wrong, but I just can't imaging Jack and Ennis look like how the book described them. 

Yes, the book does describe the boys in an unflattering way. In a previous thread some time ago I brought this up in reference to Jack and Laureen. Why, I wondered, would a good looking girl pick up the story Jack? I am sure there were other good looking men around that wanted her. The only conclusion I could come up with was that she hated her father and wanted to get back at him. So she took Jack out in her father's car and had sex with him hoping to get pregnant so she would have to marry him and make her father mad. Other than in the backseat of the car, we never see or hear of any major affection between them. And when Jack tells her father off at Thanksgiving she obviously was enjoying it.

Couple all that with the fact they never had any more children and I would say she had little to no interest in Jack, and it could very well be Jack had no interest in her. Ennis was on his mind.

[Patriot1]

u make a good point i dont think anyone would fall in love with ugly old people so maybe i dunno

Well, Ms. Bluesky, as an ugly old person all I can say is that I sure do hope you are wrong.

Do you think I could persuade you to take your knife out of my heart now?

[Patriot1]

In the world of love, age, appearance, nationality and even gender. are not factors

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but gender sure is a big factor in my life.  And, I guess age is also a factor. I sure don't want some Twinkie at my age. Some of them might be nice eye candy but oh no. Not for me.

[CherryCake]

I haven't been here in so long I don't know if I have the right to welcome you but I will anyway.

1) What happened during the first summer at Brokeback Mountain?

Neither the short story or the movie give any indication as to whether Jack was alone on the mountain or with someone else. However, Annie Proulx said, in an interview, that she had talked with a Wyoming rancher and he told her he liked to send two men up onto the mountain so that if they got lonely they could poke each other.

To this old fag's mind, and for what it is worth, Jack had had previous experiences with men. I base this on his reactions and actions with Ennis. In the first night in the tent Jack thought he was going to be the aggressor. He took Ennis' hand and placed it on his crotch. He did not put his own hand on Ennis'. When Ennis took control and assaulted Jack, Jack did not fight him. This indicated to me he had been in the passive position before.

So, in my mind, Jack had had previous experiences whereas Ennis was a complete virgin but had seen enough animals to know how it was done.

2)  One post mentioned that Jake and Heath are too good looking compare to the book characters.  That makes me wonder.  I could be wrong, but I just can't imaging Jack and Ennis look like how the book described them. 

Yes, the book does describe the boys in an unflattering way. In a previous thread some time ago I brought this up in reference to Jack and Laureen. Why, I wondered, would a good looking girl pick up the story Jack? I am sure there were other good looking men around that wanted her. The only conclusion I could come up with was that she hated her father and wanted to get back at him. So she took Jack out in her father's car and had sex with him hoping to get pregnant so she would have to marry him and make her father mad. Other than in the backseat of the car, we never see or hear of any major affection between them. And when Jack tells her father off at Thanksgiving she obviously was enjoying it.

Couple all that with the fact they never had any more children and I would say she had little to no interest in Jack, and it could very well be Jack had no interest in her. Ennis was on his mind.

Wow, Patriot, what a great analysis.  Thanks.

[welshwitch]

It's also difficult to talk about beauty or ugliness; beauty is such an artificially-constrcted concept. I look at "celebrity" pix and see empty, inexprienced, unintellignt faces that may be labeled as attractive or pretty or beautiful but have no appeal to me at all. One's idea of what's attractive or beautiful changes s one gets older; the fact that the mass medi concentrate largely on the young has unfortunate side-effects. The point of Jack and Ennis may be that they were beautiful to each other, or more probably that they weren't full of notions of beauty but just felt drawn to each other as friends, companions and lovers.

[CrimsonSky]

Yes, the book does describe the boys in an unflattering way. In a previous thread some time ago I brought this up in reference to Jack and Laureen. Why, I wondered, would a good looking girl pick up the story Jack? I am sure there were other good looking men around that wanted her. The only conclusion I could come up with was that she hated her father and wanted to get back at him. So she took Jack out in her father's car and had sex with him hoping to get pregnant so she would have to marry him and make her father mad. Other than in the backseat of the car, we never see or hear of any major affection between them. And when Jack tells her father off at Thanksgiving she obviously was enjoying it.

Couple all that with the fact they never had any more children and I would say she had little to no interest in Jack, and it could very well be Jack had no interest in her. Ennis was on his mind.

Maybe Lureen was attracted to Jack precisely because he didn't try hitting on her, like most other guys she was used to. She might have found his apparent shyness attractive, or maybe she just liked a challenge

[tea]

Well, I do agree with what TPE said that "Many younger and attractive people fall in love with older, more mature, and not necessarily very attractive partners -- in either heterosexual or gay contexts.  Love and attraction are complex entities.  It is not just a physical response, for sure."

And I do believe that's why Jack and Ennis were so in love with each other.  Not only they were attracted to each other's appearances, they also fell in love with each other's personalities.  I believe that inner beauty sometimes is more important than outside appearances, and plays a key role in a relationship.
However, that's not the case with Laureen and Cassie. Neither of them knew Jack and Ennis prior to their initial meeting, and couldn't possiblely like them because they have irresistible personalities.  So I think they fell for Jack and Ennis due to their handsome faces, which I am still having trouble linking to the book characters.   

[tpe]

There is of course that old discussion as to whether we would feel the same way about the movie had they chose less than handsome actors to play Ennis and Jack.

Hard to say.  For one, beauty is quite relative.

But I think everyone here agrees that Ledger and Gyllenhaal are quite beautiful.  That given, I woild claim thaat their beauty is intrinsically part of the lyricism of the entire film.  They embody a physical type of beauty that is transformed into an effective vehicle for this meditation on universal love.  Beauty is indeed an aid to this meditation.  And the fact that both were exquisite actors heightens the sense of appeal.

Now, I cannot think of Ennis del Mar without thinking of Heath Ledger.  And I certainly cannot think of Jack Twist without thinking of Jake Gyllenhaal.  They have successfully transmuted the characters into flesh and blood. 

Art, artifice, and beauty.  They are worthy vehicles to a deeper meditation on love.

[welshwitch]

Jake G is completely beautiful. I don't find Heath even attractive, much less handsome or beautiful.I can see him as not so far from the ss description whereas Jake has nothing in common with Jack Twist as he's described as looking that first summer.

[tpe]

Jake G is completely beautiful. I don't find Heath even attractive, much less handsome or beautiful.I can see him as not so far from the ss description whereas Jake has nothing in common with Jack Twist as he's described as looking that first summer.

Heath sports a different kind of beauty than Jake.  I do not doubt his physical appeal with his many fans.  I admire Jake's qualitues very much indeed, so I feel that I am not fully qualified to sing Heath's praises.  But there is a rugged masculinity about Heath that belies a certain softness in his features at certain times.  Equivalently, there is a hardness and down-to-earth quality in his features that tempers the softness of youth.  Just as Jake seems to evoke a "boy-next-door" aura, so Heath evokes the image of a natural (as opposed to being all built-up). 

My opinion.

[CherryCake]

I can't imagine what went on the summer of '62, but Jack hung around in a man's world -- rodeoing.  He had a lot of contact with men.  Being only 19 years old, he may have been the recipient of some guys' attention  in the past.  Maybe he realized he was gay, but I don't think so.  When he tells Ennis he's not gay, I think he really believes that.  Maybe, just maybe, Jack was innocent, too.  He may have had feelings for men but never acted upon them before now.

Back to topic....  I think Jack got some experience with male sex on Brokeback.  The only thing I didn't understand, besides that "Last year lighting struck 43 sheep' line, Jack never references the previous summer.  "Well, thats not the way me and Wally did that."  'This year is colder than last year.'  Since he wasnt't the newcomer, like Ennis, I thought he would have been more or less the stud duck on Brokeback.

[welshwitch]

Perhaps referring back would have intimidated Ennis, as though Jack was trying to show how much more he knew - the only refernce is ine in which he was in trouble from Aguire.
Or maybe referring to his expereince with the almost-mythical other man ( whom I think we've invented) would have suggested to Ennis, who clearly doesn't want to think he himself is "queer", that Jack is. Given how he later reacts to the Mexico confession.Jack's a good judge of character.

[edgar]

Perhaps referring back would have intimidated Ennis, as though Jack was trying to show how much more he knew - the only refernce is ine in which he was in trouble from Aguire.
Or maybe referring to his expereince with the almost-mythical other man ( whom I think we've invented) would have suggested to Ennis, who clearly doesn't want to think he himself is "queer", that Jack is. Given how he later reacts to the Mexico confession.Jack's a good judge of character.

Just clarifying/repeating what you folks have deduced here... The fact that Jack never mentions the previous summer is (perhaps) the best evidence that he did have a sexual experience with the other guy. Knew that, somehow, something might be communicated when he talked about that guy, so he kept his mouth shut.

Slightly OT, perhaps, but there is a pretty good fanfic which serves as a "backstory" to the BBM we all know and love--in other words, it does not change or imply any changes in the story. It touches on what we are discussing here. I can't remember the title nor find it now; probably someone will step in and tell how to find it if you're interested.

[tpe]

Perhaps referring back would have intimidated Ennis, as though Jack was trying to show how much more he knew - the only refernce is ine in which he was in trouble from Aguire.
Or maybe referring to his expereince with the almost-mythical other man ( whom I think we've invented) would have suggested to Ennis, who clearly doesn't want to think he himself is "queer", that Jack is. Given how he later reacts to the Mexico confession.Jack's a good judge of character.

Just clarifying/repeating what you folks have deduced here... The fact that Jack never mentions the previous summer is (perhaps) the best evidence that he did have a sexual experience with the other guy. Knew that, somehow, something might be communicated when he talked about that guy, so he kept his mouth shut.

Slightly OT, perhaps, but there is a pretty good fanfic which serves as a "backstory" to the BBM we all know and love--in other words, it does not change or imply any changes in the story. It touches on what we are discussing here. I can't remember the title nor find it now; probably someone will step in and tell how to find it if you're interested.

Personally, I am not sure if Jack had a fling the previous summer.  Given that most of his plans ended up not the way he wanted them to end, he would have probably attempted something, but perhaps ended up shortchanged.  This is also speculation on my part.  Jack's experience is a mystery to me.  The mystery makes the character of Jack Twist ever more appealing to me... 

[welshwitch]

Sure you're not just keeping Jack ( or Jake!) untouched by human hand?

I think Jack almost certainly had some sort of experience, even if it was incomplete, before he came to BBM that summer. He's so much more aware of himself, has much more sense of his own identity, than Ennis, and knows himself more than Ennis does, or maybe ever will. Unlike us, I don't think Jack intellectualizes things, either, just does his thing.

[tpe]

Sure you're not just keeping Jack ( or Jake!) untouched by human hand?

I think Jack almost certainly had some sort of experience, even if it was incomplete, before he came to BBM that summer. He's so much more aware of himself, has much more sense of his own identity, than Ennis, and knows himself more than Ennis does, or maybe ever will. Unlike us, I don't think Jack intellectualizes things, either, just does his thing.

Yes, then and later in life, Jack never intellectualized his experience.  Proof enough was his desire to have a shared life with Ennis.   He never bother to consider the consequences.  He knew what he wanted in his heart.

[welshwitch]

Which, and this is verging OT, is why he's so attractive. He found out what he wanted, sees it in Ennis and goes after it and, once his emotions are engaged, sticks with it for twenty years despite everything. Which in turn suggests that something showed him very powerfully what his sexuality was and he recognised it immediately.

[tpe]

Which, and this is verging OT, is why he's so attractive. He found out what he wanted, sees it in Ennis and goes after it and, once his emotions are engaged, sticks with it for twenty years despite everything. Which in turn suggests that something showed him very powerfully what his sexuality was and he recognised it immediately.

In many instances, I would hazard that one recognizes one's sexuality and comes to grips with its defining power most strongly in the person of the beloved.  Could it be that finding Ennis was enough for Jack to have finally come to grips with his own identity?  Many people refer to this in terms of complementarity, wholeness or completeness.  However it is phrased, it is in the person of the beloved that many invariably discover themselves.

[Rønnaug]

u make a good point i dont think anyone would fall in love with ugly old people so maybe i dunno

noone is ugly missy... some are less picture pretty than others but beauty is in the eye of the beholder remember??

Besides, where does the line go for older? is it ok to fall for someone 19 years older but not 20?

Cassie is a gem in that she, like Jack, falls for ENNIS, not for the money or the looks IMO