Topic: Does author of short story use proper English? Yes. The boardmembers?

[Cowboy Cody]

Brother Bram - by jove, I think you've got it! 

[CherryCake]

Thank you all for the lessons! I have learned so much in here... now, can someone teach me how to two-step? tee hee

[Cowboy Cody]

Yup, at the gay cowboy bar in Dallas, those boys can two step like no one's business!

[bram]

I can two step. It was one of the first things I was taught when I moved to Texas. I can only do it drunk, though.

[TJ]

Oh, I think that Annie Proulx used countrified [country-f'eyed] (or country fried) English on purpose in the Brokeback Mountain short story.

But, in regard to "Ennis's dog," that is the correct way to write that in Modern American Language Style. Otherwise, you would hear "Ennis' dog" sound like "En is dog."

[frenchcda]

By JOVE she sure did, ain't nothin wrong wit that, be she bless for she's a mighty fine human being

[proulxfan]

Slightly OT, but related; I noticed 2 linguistic anachronisms in the screenplay. Both occur when Ennis is telling Jack-in 1967-that they can't get together on a permanent basis.  Ennis: "Bottom line is, if this thing grabs hold of us again, in the wrong place, ...at the wrong time...we're dead." The phrase "bottom line" didn't enter popular usage in the US to mean "the most important thing" until the early 1980's, with the return to popular culture of the idea that money and career were of primary importance. This notion had been in relative disfavor during the '60's and 70's. "We live in a material world, and I am a material girl" : Madonna
Second: " Two guys livin' together...No way!" Again, I recall the phrase "No way " as also being a creature of the '80's, and in the story, Ennis just says "No." instead of "No way." Not exactly earth-shattering in importance, but as I said earlier I am interested in stuff like this...

[tpe]

Slightly OT, but related; I noticed 2 linguistic anachronisms in the screenplay. Both occur when Ennis is telling Jack-in 1967-that they can't get together on a permanent basis.  Ennis: "Bottom line is, if this thing grabs hold of us again, in the wrong place, ...at the wrong time...we're dead." The phrase "bottom line" didn't enter popular usage in the US to mean "the most important thing" until the early 1980's, with the return to popular culture of the idea that money and career were of primary importance. This notion had been in relative disfavor during the '60's and 70's. "We live in a material world, and I am a material girl" : Madonna
Second: " Two guys livin' together...No way!" Again, I recall the phrase "No way " as also being a creature of the '80's, and in the story, Ennis just says "No." instead of "No way." Not exactly earth-shattering in importance, but as I said earlier I am interested in stuff like this...

This is the problem with living languages.  Etymologies and the evolution of phrases is so hard to keep track of.  And of course, we have the evolution of punctuation, as the posts on the original topic pretty much demonstrates.

[backtobrokeback]

A brief discussion here, referencing the OED, suggests that "bottom line" figurative uses were in print by 1967, which is almost exactly when Ennis would have said that. 

http://p211.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm8.showMessage?topicID=492.topic

As for "no way", I don't think that is the exclusive province of 1980's Valley Girls and Wayne's World (No way! Waaaay!)
It would be within Ennis's undereducated vernacular to say "no way, nohow", as Jack also does, and that expression dates back a long way.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=nohow

Not disagreeing, exactly, but just sayin'...

-backtobrokeback

[tpe]

One thing I find interesting about the OED (Online Etymology Dictionary) is how the precision of dating specific words and phrases drops precipitously with increasing antiquity (for example: '1967' for modern words/phrases and something like '12th Century' for older ones!)

We should of course bear in mind that even the dates for more modern words and phrases are approximations. albeit pretty good ones.  There is no question in my mind that the screenplay writers did not really consciously check for this kind of accuracy (nor do they really have to, in a sense). 

This aside, punctuation is a trickier thing to establish, as usages could be equally old, or that they are used in tandem for quite a while (the one bearing the official stamp, whereas the other, the colloquial).  And of course, it may just boil down to a question of style, and not strictly grammar. 

[backtobrokeback]

One thing I find interesting about the OED (Online Etymology Dictionary) is how the precision of dating specific words and phrases drops precipitously with increasing antiquity (for example: '1967' for modern words/phrases and something like '12th Century' for older ones!)

  Wouldn't that be because we *have* the 1967 paper and can see the date, but a 12th century manuscript may have no date to say if it's 1120 or 1170? 

-btb

[proulxfan]

Re:" bottom line": I was careful to use the qualifier of popular usage for that phrase, because I remember it grated on my nerves when I started hearing it-but of course memory is an untrustworthy guide at best.
"No way": I was less sure about that one, but I will still say that it wasn't popular 'till after this period in the film. On the other hand, I believe Cowardly Lion in the Wizard of Oz uses the phrase "Not no way, not no how", and that's 1939. But again, I note Annie just has Ennis saying "No".
Go figure!!

[tpe]

One thing I find interesting about the OED (Online Etymology Dictionary) is how the precision of dating specific words and phrases drops precipitously with increasing antiquity (for example: '1967' for modern words/phrases and something like '12th Century' for older ones!)

  Wouldn't that be because we *have* the 1967 paper and can see the date, but a 12th century manuscript may have no date to say if it's 1120 or 1170? 

-btb

Hello backtobrokeback.  Yes.  Manuscripts from the Medieval period and Late Antiquity are sometimes dated with surprising accuracy (as in Byzantine Greek orthography, for instance).  But we have no way of knowing if the earliest surviving manuscript that records a distinct usage is indeed the earliest instance (with so few manuscripts surviving).

[bhy]

I noticed in the short story that the author says, for example,  "Ennis's dog went to town".

However, on the BBM board almost everyone says "Ennis' dog went to town"

Please help me understand the correct form to use when a regular man's name ends in "s".

dumbfounded in manila..

I've grown up in both Canada and the U.S., and I can tell you that in the U.S. the correct usage of possesive for a single subject ending in "s" is "-s's", while plural is "-s'".  In Canada however, both forms can be used for the single subject ending in "s", depending on the preference.  So I guess Annie's usage was correct, and with her being a French Canadian, her heritage tells her she can use either.

[pierralex]

I noticed in the short story that the author says, for example,  "Ennis's dog went to town".

However, on the BBM board almost everyone says "Ennis' dog went to town"

Please help me understand the correct form to use when a regular man's name ends in "s".

dumbfounded in manila..

I've grown up in both Canada and the U.S., and I can tell you that in the U.S. the correct usage of possesive for a single subject ending in "s" is "-s's", while plural is "-s'".  In Canada however, both forms can be used for the single subject ending in "s", depending on the preference.  So I guess Annie's usage was correct, and with her being a French Canadian, her heritage tells her she can use either.

All I can say is that here in France we learn mainly english (not american), and we're taught that we have to write "Ennis' dog", and that "Ennis's dog" is a mistake. I think there can be differences in spelling depending of the places.

[Patriot1]

All I can say is that here in France we learn mainly English (not American), and we're taught that we have to write "Ennis' dog", and that "Ennis's dog" is a mistake. I think there can be differences in spelling depending of the places.

That is the way I learned it also right here in the good old U.S. of A.  But, I have seen so many people writing Ennis's that I sometimes do it also.  Figured I was getting old and just forgetting my schooling and didn't want too look to ignorant.  Considering books are generally gone over by an editor for spelling and grammer, I thought that because there was a lot of improper English in the dialog the editor just let everything go through. 

[tpe]

English teacher here. 

We have some serious exception-taking to the rules going on - but that's fairly typical of English, as well as a delightful schism between American and British forms, also fairly (and increasingly) common:

Nouns (not including names): Plural nouns that end in s (like “guys”) don’t add another s to form the possessive, e.g., the students’ lounge. “The students’ apartment” is the standard spelling. (Chicago Manual of Style, American English)

First names:  Chicago style adds an apostrophe and an s: James’s, Iris’s.  But please see CMS 7.17–23 for more examples and exceptions to the rule. 

At this point it devolves into: "Q. When indicating possession of a word that ends in s, is it correct to repeat the s after using an apostrophe? For example, which is correct: “Dickens’ novel” or “Dickens’s novel”?

A. Either is correct, though CMS 15 recommends the latter. Please consult 7.18–22 for a full discussion of the rules for forming the possessive of proper nouns, including exceptions and examples. For a simpler statement of the rule, see paragraph 5.26. For a discussion of the alternative practice of simply adding an apostrophe to form the possessive of proper nouns ending in s, see paragraph 7.23."

For my personal preference: Ennis's and Jack's families, Ennis and Jack's love for each other, Jack kissed Ennis on the Del Mars' back stairs, Jack rode Ennis's <horse>, etc.

If you care to read a British article (none the more helpful, full of contradictions and exceptions), but still very very funny http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/apostrophe.htm



-backtobrokeback

The above old post is a good summary of the current state of affairs.  Note that the rule espoused by the Chicago Manual of Style is still very much the prevalent opinion.  I have also been assured, rather curiously, that it is the older grammatical and orthographic opinion.

[shieldmaid]

Also an English teacher here--just wanted to second backtobrokeback's rules here.  Spot on--was just discussing these with a student the other day.  Thanks for a fascinating discussion--I've been following the analysis of etymologies with a lot of interest. 

[tpe]

Also an English teacher here--just wanted to second backtobrokeback's rules here.  Spot on--was just discussing these with a student the other day.  Thanks for a fascinating discussion--I've been following the analysis of etymologies with a lot of interest. 

I loved all my English teachers.  (The Latin instructors came second!) 

[TJ]

While I have not read complete works of what Annie Proulx has written, I have compared her writing style in some paragraphs of her books with Brokeback Mountain. She does not use the same style with BbM; she adjusts the story to somewhat fit the education and background of Ennis Del Mar.

Oh, I generally use BbM for the two word title, "Brokeback Mountain." I don't use "BM" to refer to "bowel movement," but, those intitials remind some people of it and it bothers them to see those.