Topic: If Ennis never met Jack.

[tpe]

Altough repressed as with in his case with Jack , woud'nt it be posslble for another man who is able to recognize these feelings in Ennis as Jack did and trigger something deep inside him?

 If Ennis has any homosexual tendencies at all , though repressed, would he find other men attractive opening up the possibility of another man in his life. Would'nt some action eventually give him away?  Or could someone like Ennis live  a life never showing this side of himself?

 Sexual orientation is a powerful thing thing, but this can tie in with the other thread ( Is Ennis Gay? ) It's complicated, but Jack got through, maybe someone else could do the same. Again, Ennis would probably never initiate it but I sill think that Jack's approach to Ennis and how Ennis responded to it may not be an isolated incident.
Even with Jack it was a slow process bringing these feelings in Ennis to the surface, but somehow Jack managed to do it But Jack was Jack. Just a thought.

I think it is possible.  But I wonder if Ennis would ever give himself a chance to open himself up to these possibilities.

He already knew how he felt about Jack for most of the 20 years, and yet he kept it at arms length, so to speak. 

It would need someone like Jack to pull Ennis out.  But even with such a person appearing later in Ennis's life, everything would have depended on Ennis reciprocating, even in a limited way.  This would be a bit more difficult, given that Ennis would have been married at that point and was not at liberty to make his own choices, as we see in the case of Jack post-reunion.

But I must admit that the possibility is there.

[tpe]

I'd say it'd be really unusual aintfoolin'. I think there is the big problem of time and circumstance here.

Jack “got through” to Ennis when Ennis was young, alone, and a virgin; it was his first sexual experience (we’re lead to believe anyway). I think he was much more open to alternative sexual experiences at this age and time. If Ennis had not “experienced” Jack, had married Alma, had his 1st experience with her, and followed a relatively standard hetero life style,  – then I believe he would have been like literally millions of other men in that same cage. Possibly curious but totally unable or unwilling to express or peruse this interest for fear of upsetting the entire apple cart. Why risk turning your life (and your families) upside down for something that you’re not even sure you feel. It is a terrifically difficult thing to do unless you are absolutely sure about what you want. I don’t see that Ennis would have been able to achieve this certainty in Riverton WY in the 60s or 70s.

With the right man and right circumstance certainly this could happen – (heck I be willing to help him try ) – but it sure doesn’t seem at all likely given the place or time. Just look at what happened to poor Jack in ’83. Just MHO.

I think it was the very idsolation of their situation on the mountain and the fact that they appeared to be in a place out of space and time that had a big influence on Ennis. He didn't have to concern himself, as he did so often later, with other people, since there weren't any, other than Aguirre a couple of times, and Ennis wasn't around when he appeared. Much eaier to behave unconventionallywhen you're out of your normal routine and away from your normal contacts - it's a sort of holiday thing.

I would just want to add that Jackster and WW have elaborated (perhapa a bit better) the role of the right time and the right place, as it certainly was in BBM.  I guess this underlies my argument in my last post.  Both of you said it in a clearer light, IMO.

[welshwitch]

I think it's true what they say - you dont miss what you've never had. When it comes along, though, nothing is ever the same again because you've found out something about yourself which will always be there, even if you choose to try to suppress it or are forced into having to deny it most of the time, as Ennis is. So I think without Jack Ennis would have gone along a conventional, if not exciting, path; after Jack there was another way and one that had such a hold over him that he could never entirely ignore it again.

It's like one of those pictures you can look at in two ways; before you see the second one you just see one thing; after the second one is pointed out to you you always move between the two versions.

[tpe]

I think it's true what they say - you dont miss what you've never had. When it comes along, though, nothing is ever the same again because you've found out something about yourself which will always be there, even if you choose to try to suppress it or are forced into having to deny it most of the time, as Ennis is. So I think without Jack Ennis would have gone along a conventional, if not exciting, path; after Jack there was another way and one that had such a hold over him that he could never entirely ignore it again.

It's like one of those pictures you can look at in two ways; before you see the second one you just see one thing; after the second one is pointed out to you you always move between the two versions.

But would Ennis ever be happy?  I had wondered what this means: Ennis being happy.  It feels like a conundrum, if Jack were not in the picture.

[jackster]

But would Ennis ever be happy? I had wondered what this means: Ennis being happy. . . .

Very good question. Did Ennis know what "happiness" was (of course who does?  ). His young life was filled with a lot of trauma that may have precluded learning about happiness at an age when most children begin to understand the concept. I'm trying to think of where we get to see him "happy" or full of contentment  . . .

Bringing supplies back to camp, just riding his horse (just before the bear)
Around the campfire with Jack (the high-time supper)
Dozy Embrace
With Alma in the snow
Reunion embrace (this might be more than just happiness)
Reunion campfire (sending up a prayer of thanks)

There are scenes where he is emotional (i.e. SNIT) but these may be something other than happiness. Are there others I'm not remembering? Even my favorite scene - shooting the elk - he seems very pleased and relaxed, but it's hard to see that as happy. But maybe that's just Ennis.

[tpe]

Very good question. Did Ennis know what "happiness" was (of course who does?  ). His young life was filled with a lot of trauma that may have precluded learning about happiness at an age when most children begin to understand the concept. I'm trying to think of where we get to see him "happy" or full of contentment  . . .

Bringing supplies back to camp, just riding his horse (just before the bear)
Around the campfire with Jack (the high-time supper)
Dozy Embrace
With Alma in the snow
Reunion embrace (this might be more than just happiness)
Reunion campfire (sending up a prayer of thanks)

There are scenes where he is emotional (i.e. SNIT) but these may be something other than happiness. Are there others I'm not remembering? Even my favorite scene - shooting the elk - he seems very pleased and relaxed, but it's hard to see that as happy. But maybe that's just Ennis.

It would seem then to me that Ennis was happiest when he was with the poeple he loved, most especially with Jack.  Why then did he fight it so much?  It was as if he was possessed with a desire to remain unhappy.  Alma of course echoes this when they were talking about moving into town.

Thinkng about it, Ennis may very well have never "met" Jack, even if they had stayed up on Brokeback.  Although he opened up to Jack later on, it would seem that even with Jack being especially agressive, he held back a great deal.  Had Jack been less persistent, perhaps they would not have connected the way they did.  I'm not saying that it was all Jack's initiative.  But Ennis must have been a tough nut to crack.  I suspect few people could ever have penetrated his shell...

[jackster]

Perhaps another way to analyze this is to look at the inverse of Ennis’s happiness . . . when was Ennis most unhappy? I’m making a big presumption here, but if when he cried, he was expressing his greatest unhappiness then it would be:

1.   In the alley after leaving Jack.
2.   At the divorce court.
3.   By the reunion campfire when he thinks can’t live with Jack.
4.   During their last meeting / argument.
5.   In Jack’s bedroom.
6.   Finally, of course, with the shirts.

Each of these could be seen (IMO) as Ennis losing a person he loves, either losing them in a real physical sense or in a more metaphysical sense, i.e. losing the “idea” of them. As at the reunion campfire when he realizes (in his head anyway) that he and Jack can’t make a life together and so he loses the idea of a potential life with Jack. Which makes sense as being just the opposite of what you say about when he is happiest is when he is with his loved ones.

When looked at this way I come to the conclusion that Ennis would have been have very happy with Jack, and if he had never experienced the love he had with Jack, he probably would have been happy with Alma. But once that love with Jack had transpired he would never be really happy again without Jack, which as we know, is the tragedy of the story.

Thinkng about it, Ennis may very well have never "met" Jack, even if they had stayed up on Brokeback.  . . . Had Jack been less persistent, perhaps they would not have connected the way they did . . . Ennis must have been a tough nut to crack.  I suspect few people could ever have penetrated his shell . . .

This I feel is one of (maybe THE) the beauty of this story, Ennis did by chance meet Jack, maybe the only person who could work magic with Ennis and “crack him” exactly as you say. They were so much alike, “like two skins, one inside the other”. I’m not sure anyone else could have shown Ennis the way, it had to be his other half, Jack; Ennis would not have trusted anyone else.

[tpe]

Perhaps another way to analyze this is to look at the inverse of Ennis’s happiness . . . when was Ennis most unhappy? I’m making a big presumption here, but if when he cried, he was expressing his greatest unhappiness then it would be:

1.   In the alley after leaving Jack.
2.   At the divorce court.
3.   By the reunion campfire when he thinks can’t live with Jack.
4.   During their last meeting / argument.
5.   In Jack’s bedroom.
6.   Finally, of course, with the shirts.

Each of these could be seen (IMO) as Ennis losing a person he loves, either losing them in a real physical sense or in a more metaphysical sense, i.e. losing the “idea” of them. As at the reunion campfire when he realizes (in his head anyway) that he and Jack can’t make a life together and so he loses the idea of a potential life with Jack. Which makes sense as being just the opposite of what you say about when he is happiest is when he is with his loved ones.

When looked at this way I come to the conclusion that Ennis would have been have very happy with Jack, and if he had never experienced the love he had with Jack, he probably would have been happy with Alma. But once that love with Jack had transpired he would never be really happy again without Jack, which as we know, is the tragedy of the story.

Interesting.  So you think that in a way, Ennis meeting Jack proved fatal in the long run.  That once Ennis met Jack, there was no turning back, and happiness would not be possible without him.  Yes, this is the stuff of tragedy.   The tragic flaw comes in the service of Love.

This I feel is one of (maybe THE) the beauty of this story, Ennis did by chance meet Jack, maybe the only person who could work magic with Ennis and “crack him” exactly as you say. They were so much alike, “like two skins, one inside the other”. I’m not sure anyone else could have shown Ennis the way, it had to be his other half, Jack; Ennis would not have trusted anyone else.

Like all great tragedies, their meeting is the source of so much pain and happiness.  I somehow suspect that had they had the foreknowledge of it all, perhaps they would have still chosen a similar trajectory.  I believe in fate.  They were bound to meet.  They were yearning for it, without even knowing...

 

[welshwitch]

It seems to me that in the end there's some truth in the " better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" idea. At least knowing Jack, and losing him in the end too, awakened Ennis's deepest emotions, the sort I think he'd never have experienced with Alma. For me, better to know the extreme highs and lows than live all one's life on one level - Brokeback was the literal and metaphorical peak of Ennis's life in some ways, though he didn;t realise it till much later.

[tpe]

It seems to me that in the end there's some truth in the " better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" idea. At least knowing Jack, and losing him in the end too, awakened Ennis's deepest emotions, the sort I think he'd never have experienced with Alma. For me, better to know the extreme highs and lows than live all one's life on one level - Brokeback was the literal and metaphorical peak of Ennis's life in some ways, though he didn;t realise it till much later.

Yes, the finding of true love transcends all cost, no?   And not finding it is the bliss of ignorance.

[jackster]

Yes, the finding of true love transcends all cost, no?   And not finding it is the bliss of ignorance.

Yup, much agreed. The real tragedy, I suppose, comes not in losing the love one knows, or in not knowing that love exists (ignorance), the real tragedy and sorrow comes in knowing and believing that there is a love to be found, but in never finding it.

These stories may be too painful to tell. At least our boys found it and (eventually) knew that they found it.

[tpe]

Yup, much agreed. The real tragedy, I suppose, comes not in losing the love one knows, or in not knowing that love exists (ignorance), the real tragedy and sorrow comes in knowing and believing that there is a love to be found, but in never finding it.

These stories may be too painful to tell. At least our boys found it and (eventually) knew that they found it.

Beautifully said, jackster. To have found love the way they did is more than enough.  I am sure that Jack in his dying moments would not have thought otherwise.

[myprivatejack]

"Resuscitating" this old thread and having seen and thought about all what we have said about Ennis,I tend to believe that Ennis had lived an hidden life if he never had met Jack.I mean,we must bear in mind that during their time on BBM,Ennis was a very young man who had never known real love-neither on his father's part...-and who felt uprooted mainly.The isolation made between them a bond beyond the help they could give each other in daily tasks;it was a bond based on respect,trust,confidences and feeling oneself valued.All these circomstances,IMO,developed a feeling that was fairly more open and accepted in Jack's case,but not in Ennis's.
If they hadn't met in BBM,I'm sure Ennis had married Alma and been happy,thinking that this was the real life he wanted; with a family of his own who loved him,where he could feel useful,valued and respected as he had never been...But I guess also that,sooner or later,the same wearing down of the life in common and,specially,something special hidden inside him,had made him look at men in another deeper and different way.And,maybe,he had been as many other men who make their coming out -before themselves firstly,and after,before the rest of society-,many years after their marriage and then,they decided to change their life.But,I repeat,only after having lived a "normal" and socially accepted life with a woman and maybe in 80 or 90's society,never in the Riverton of 60,70 and middle 80's.JMHO and sorry if I have repeated some ideas already expressed for somebody else...

[tpe]

Do you think that even if Ennis would have lived a hdden or closeted life, would his true nature would have somehow manifested itself in another way?  And in what way?

[myprivatejack]

Do you think that even if Ennis would have lived a hdden or closeted life, would his true nature would have somehow manifested itself in another way?  And in what way?

I think that,even in the most difficult cases,as it could be Ennis's,one can't be disguised of good and loving husband all his life without,sooner or later,feeling that something is lacking inside him.I've said this rather clear in my former post by saying that maybe,he would have finished by looking other men in another way when life had carried to him the sensation that he had somehow lost his life being another person really.If social circumstances allowed him to "breath" a little more in this sense,maybe he had a shy "coming out",even when old.

[tpe]

Yes, I think one's true nature can't be completely repressed.  It would find some kind of outlet, sooner or later.  Perhaps the manner in which the repression is relaxed can be subliminated into some other form.  But even if Ennis were to stay away from affairs with other men, the emotional cost would sooner or later lead to great unhappiness, and perhaps divorce.  How can one totally suppress one's nature?  I think it would be impossible.

[myprivatejack]

Yes,I'm of the same opinion too.It's difficult-if not impossible...-to suppress or,even,hide one's own nature during all one's life.Ennis was a difficult case too,but even in his case,I suppose he felt at least kind of empty; mainly when social circunstances were a little more relaxed.

[tpe]

The emptiness that you speak of is, I think, spring from a realization of being unfulfilled.  This is why trying not to be true to oneself leads to great unhappiness, and any outlet that this frustration takes only serves to deepen on's sense of self-loathing.  In the case of Ennis, the frustration would definitely reveal itself in his marriage to Alma, whatever form his outlet might take...

 

[Mahogany]

Ennis would live a normal life as a straight guy.
He was a straight guy, sexist and partially homophobic, but his soul mate came along in a male body.

The fact he saw Earl dead, doesn't mean he was trying to hide his own sexuality.

[bluemountainsky]

Ennis would live a normal life as a straight guy.
He was a straight guy, sexist and partially homophobic, but his soul mate came along in a male body.

The fact he saw Earl dead, doesn't mean he was trying to hide his own sexuality.

I disagree. I believe Ennis was indeed a gay man, but he had been conditioned by an extremely homophobic society. He was taught to believe those feelings were wrong, that there was something wrong with him for having them, and that he would be severely punished if he was ever a "queer". For these reasons, Ennis kept his homosexual feelings deeply repressed, suppressed, and hidden away. Only when Jack came along, he was swept off his feet and could no longer keep his true self hidden. He felt safe with Jack up there on that mountain where he thought no one was watching. But Ennis, at his core was just as gay as Jack. I don't believe either were "straight" men.

Jack was more comfortable with his orientation than Ennis was, but it doesn't change the fact that Ennis was the same, he was just severely closeted due to deep-set fears, at the core of which was the "fire-and-brimstone" society which believed gays belonged in hell, and the part of it his father showed him when he was a child, the dead body of Earl, mangled and tortured, then killed and thrown in a ditch because he was a gay man living in such a close-minded society. This is what scarred Ennis for life and "scared him straight" so to speak. Ennis took those "abnormal" feelings he had and stuffed them away into the deepest recesses of his heart, and when Jack came along did he open up his heart. I am of the opposing viewpoint, in that I believe seeing the mutilated corpse had a huge impact on him, and that impact did indeed have a lot to do with his true orientation.

Many people who are gay, know they are attracted to the same sex, long before they know what sex or romance is, long before they are post-pubescent. It's just something innate in a person. You just know. And Ennis knew he had those feelings he couldn't explain but never would dare show or speak it because it was "wrong"...it was a "sin", it was "evil", a "disease" and "abomination" and it meant that he was something less-than-human according to the society in which he lived.  If he had never met Jack, Ennis might have never had a relationship with a man, but that is not because he is heterosexual, it is because he would have just suppressed his desire and kept himself hidden away, like so many gay people do, even in this day and age. Ennis would have just married Alma, and stayed with her till he died. He would have lived the life that was expected of him because to do otherwise would bring about awful, horrible consequences. Jack did not make Ennis gay, he just brought out the real Ennis. A lot of people bring up how they both married women, had sex with women, etc. Well, so have many, many gay men do the same throughout history due to the prejudice, hate, and immense stigma of being homosexual that society still has to this day.

Many gay men have felt compelled to hide who they really are, in order to stay safe, or not deal with their own feelings because they want so hard to be "normal", and fit in so they won't be the target of abuse and hate. Another thing that people bring up is that Jack had sex with other men, but Ennis didn't. That doesn't mean anything either. All it means is that Ennis is a very faithful person. Once he knew Jack, he was married to him in his heart, and could not think of cheating on him. What they did with women was not real in their minds, because they both knew that the women were just a cover, having sex or relationships with women was just a formality, a duty, it was absolutely no competition to the relationship they had with each other, which was completely different, what they had was a real relationship, a tacit recognition of the fact that they were both indeed, "queer". That is why Ennis is jealous only when he knows Jack has been sleeping with other men...for the first time a threat came that could actually take Jack away from him...and the feeling of "how dare you, Jack? I thought what we had is something special."

 There are many heterosexual people who are like this. If they truly love a person, then they would never have sex with another person. It doesn't mean that if a woman stays married to her husband fifty years and never has sex with any other man in her life that she is not straight likewise, it doesn't mean that Ennis not having sex with other men means he wasn't overall attracted to men, and therefore gay. The true orientation of a person is still there, the attraction, the desires, etc. And also think about this, Ennis could only love a man. Ennis could only be himself around a man, and I'm not talking about just his orientation here, I'm talking about how around Jack he actually talked, he smiled, he laughed, he expressed his emotions and his feelings of love short of saying the three words "I love you"...which Jack didn't have to hear, because he KNEW, he could see it in Ennis's eyes. Ennis brought out his gentle, fragile, sensitive, vulnerable self that he he hid with that tough guy, macho, stoic exterior that he'd built to protect himself. Introverted, quiet, shy Ennis would suddenly become playful, spontaneous, outgoing. Only one person in the world saw the real Ennis, his full personality, all aspects of him as an individual, as a person. Only Jack, no one else could even scratch the surface. Look at how Ennis is around Alma.

He is his quiet self, never letting her see, never showing any aspects of his true personality to her. She thought he was such a simple man...she was completely wrong, and this realization began the day she looked out her window and saw him passionately kissing another man, behaving in a way she had never seen him behave around her...she knew right then that there was an ocean that she did not know about Ennis. Look at all the aspects of Ennis's relationship with here...he was always distant, always going through the motions, while his mind was somewhere else. He never really talked to her in a meaningful way, just every day-to day talk, nothing like how he opened his heart to Jack. Then look at their bedroom life...he always looked completely uncomfortable with her, as if having sex with her was a duty, what he had to do, so he did. He looked the same way around Cassie. Ennis in a romantic/sexual situation with women always looked terribly uncomfortable.

 Only with a mother, sister, daughter type woman was he comfortable. He was a good father to his daughters, he was comfortable like a son around a mother when he went to visit Jack's mother. He spoke of his sister as taking care of him. So obviously, he does not have bad issues with women. It's only when those women that he must have a sexual/romantic relationship with where he feels like he doesn't really want to be there. He would rather be with a man. I have never understood why people have always referred to Jack as "more gay" than Ennis. If anything, Jack would be the one closer to being bisexual than Ennis, as he seemed to actually enjoy the sex with Lureen, (at least before they were married, and in the early part of their marriage. I know their sex life pretty much ended after Jack reunited with Ennis and started going on those "fishing trips" two or three times every year). So while I agree that one soul is in love with another, and the body the gender in this life is superfluous, for all intents and purposes, Ennis was, in this life, a man. And so was Jack.

 They were attracted to each other, and they were both gay men, because they felt far more comfortable in their attraction and romance with a man, than with any woman. If Ennis had not been gay, he could have loved Jack very much, but it would be like the kind of love you have for your family. How you love your brother or your child deeply, but of course you have no desire for anything sexual or romantic, because it is not that kind of love, there is not that kind of attraction there. I have known people who have very close friends whom they love like a sibling, it could be a woman who loves another woman like a sister, or a younger woman who loves an older man like a father, or a man who loves a woman like he would a sister, etc. or an older woman like an aunt, or mother, but there is no desire to do anything sexual or romantic with that person, because it is a different form of love.

Therefore if Ennis had not been gay, and had not felt attracted to men deep down inside, then he would have simply had no desire to want to make love with Jack, to find Jack attractive in that way, to want to touch and be touched and held by Jack in that way, the way a woman and man do. The feelings they had for each other, clearly romantic ones...again like a man and woman do. That attraction, that desire came from somewhere...it had been hidden deep in Ennis's heart, but one summer on that mountain he felt safe to let it out...because the right person came along. He may never have acted upon it had he never met Jack, but that doesn't change the fact that it was who he really was deep down inside. This film is beautiful and touched on many points and issues, and one of the main points is the detrimental effect homophobia has in society. A young man was made to hate himself for being gay, to feel that he is dirty and wrong, to deny the most intimate part of himself, he felt so shameful about his feeling that he kept them suppressed and might have kept doing so his entire life had he not been lucky enough to meet his soul mate. It is tragic that he felt that way about the best thing that had ever happened to him in his lonely, difficult life. He found what most people (gay or straight) never find in this life...he was one of the lucky ones, but could not realize it, could not understand it till it was too late. He denied himself true happiness except for a few times a year, and in the end had to live alone and lonely, crying for Jack every night, only able to see him in dreams and memories, for who knows how many years, decades till he passed away and reunited with him in the great beyond...

It culminates at the end where Ennis realizes his feelings are not wrong, are not bad, or evil, or dirty, or shameful. There is nothing wrong with him, he is normal. He didn't choose to be gay, just like no one who is actually heterosexual ever makes a conscious decision to be so. It's just how some people are, no different than some people being right-handed and others left-handed, just because they are not the majority, it doesn't mean it is wrong or bad or abnormal. The love he and Jack shared is no different from the love a woman and man who are true soulmates share. The pain that Ennis had to go through, the misery, the fight within himself was all due to society's homophobia, and in the process, another young man who hurt deeply as well. A man who was an idealist and therefore more comfortable with being who he is...but still feeling compelled to hide it partly because his lover is so emotionally damaged by a society that has made him internalize homophobia. I think there are a lot of Ennises out there...think about how many there have been throughout history and how many there are in the present day all over the world. This film opened a small sliver of light and showed how life is for one man and his lover...and maybe helped some people see a little bit into how much homosexual people have suffered.

I am a very spiritual person, and I believe that souls have no gender, but to hear it being said about this movie that it is about "two straight men who fall in love"...I believe does it a huge discredit and injustice. To say that is to deny the main aspect of this tragic story, the very point it is getting at...is that these two lovely men suffered in so many ways because they were gay, and there are so many people out there who have lived and died in a very similar predicament to them, all because of something as inconsequential as orientation, something that just is a trait of a person and cannot be changed.

[BBMsheep]

Beautiful post, bluemountainsky, thank you.

Mahogany, welcome to the forum!  

I have to say I disagree with you. I think Ennis is a gay man, very repressed, but a gay man. And I don't think he is sexist...

I agree that Jack is his soulmate and that gender is not important in that, but I think Brokeback Mountain is about two gay men who fall in love, not about two straight men who fall in love... and as bluemountainsky, I think it's a very important point of the story.

To answer the question of the thread, I think Ennis's life would have been spent with Alma and their daughters.  I guess it would have been difficult (and painful) for him to hide and deny his true self during his entire life, but I have difficulties to imagine Ennis accepting his homosexuality, in fact. He was so repressed and scared. And yes, we know it happens all the time, gay men who suppress their true feelings and live a life married to a woman... homophobia leads to these terrible, devastating situations.

I think Ennis only opened his heart to Jack, only Jack could see his true self... because Jack was the one, his only love.

That means that Ennis would have had a life without real happiness, with an emptiness inside him, without accepting who he really was, and perhaps without even understand the "why" of this permanent slight sadness inside him... I know that even with Jack, he didn't accepted who he was, his homosexuality, but at least he opened himself to Jack, he loved and has been loved truly and deeply... that would never had happened if Ennis never met Jack. IMO.

[Mahogany]

I don't know if some people (specially young gay men) think Ennis is gay or just want him to be gay, the same way they "would like" all handsome men to be gay without even knowing them, just like a fantasy.
I really can't imagine Ennis being attracted to men before Jack, emotionally or physically, even in his thoughts. I know he really loves Jack and doesn't wish Jack was a woman, he likes Jack's body and smell too, but it's unique in Ennis' entire life. He would never love anyone else the same way he loved Jack and I think he would never fake another relationship with a woman, not because he "deslikes" them, but because he realizes that living with someone he doesn't love (Alma unhappy) is as painful as living far from the one he does love (Jack unhappy).

Alma probably was the first person who Ennis was attracted for in his early 18 years, but Jack was the one Ennis fell in love with, not because Jack was a man, but because Jack was Jack.

[Mahogany]

I know Jack is clearly gay, but Ennis is the representation of the tagline from the film: "Love is a force of Nature". Ennis knows he loves Jack and accepts it for himself, although he didn't expect he could love another man, the same way he loves his daughters although he really wanted a boy, and his daughters love him although he wasn't such a great father.

That's why he never looked for other men like Jack did, he just don't like it.
Ennis could pick up some guy and take him to the motel (he wasn't afraid at all when he took Jack there), or anywhere else further and further away if he was really gay.
I can't see Ennis behavior as loyalty, the same way he had sex with Alma without loving her, he could have sex with another man without loving him, that man would be closest to Jack than Alma was, but no, he prefers Alma.

His lack of desire for Alma or Cassie is just because sometimes "he miss Jack so much he can hardly stand it". Familiar?
Ennis would be totally straight in his whole life if he never met Jack, stay married to Alma and maybe would have an affair with another woman.

That's what I like the most in Brokeback Mountain, one straight tough man who had his heart stolen by a curious, immature boy with big blue eyes.
If Ennis was gay his whole life, it's supposed he could fall in love with another guy before Jack or have sex with other men after Jack's death just to please his sex needs as a gay guy. He also could fall in love with another woman in his life but Jack came first, he really didn't love Alma, she was just his first girlfriend. I truly believe Jack was special, the one and only for him. Not the only man who "gay" Ennis liked, but the only person who made Ennis feel that way. Jack didn't arouse Ennis sexuality, but Ennis love.

[bluemountainsky]

Once again, sorry, Ennis is a homosexual man and he isn't any less so than Jack...and I do believe the reason he was never with other men after he met Jack is because he was too faithful to do that. He had sex with Alma without loving her because she is a woman...just like he was okay with Jack having sex with women...it wasn't real, no reel feelings. Women were just the cover-up so they could pretend to be "normal straight men" in the communities they lived in. But with men, well that was different, that was REAL. That is why he doesn't care if Jack sleeps with Lureen or a foreman's wife. As long as it's a woman, it's a fake relationship...no competition. Sleeping with Alma and Lureen was not cheating in Ennis' mind. Sleeping with Randall or a random Mexican guy was. That is why it he is so angry and jealous when he finds out Jack has slept with other men...for the first time, the relationship was threatened...Jack might have feelings for another man, men were the real deal...this hurt Ennis. How dare can you cheat on me, Jack?! I'm faithful to you, and I expect it from you too, that we feel the same way about each other! That's what Ennis really wanted to say, but of course he couldn't say it aloud. Also, remember that Jack was far more comfortable with his own sexuality and orientation than Ennis was. Definitely the fact that Ennis never was with another man had a lot to do with his own personality...not his orientation. He was too faithful and devoted, plus he shy and introverted.

Where would he meet another gay man where he lived? Jack had much more outgoing personality, and was around more people. Ennis was a loner...very difficult for him to meet people. He didn't even like meeting the people at the church that were Alma's friends. It is difficult for someone as introverted as Ennis to meet someone. Even when it comes to women, whom obviously Ennis could have slept with if he'd wanted to...since he felt it wouldn't be real and not affect his relationship with Jack...when it comes to women he also did not meet them either. Did you see Ennis going for another woman after divorcing Alma? Did he go out meeting women? No. Cassie approached him, he didn't really want to be bothered by her and he actually tries turning her away, but she was attracted to him and came on strong, and so he went along with it, after all, she made another good cover for him, just like Alma had for years. Ennis was uncomfortable around Alma and Cassie for more reasons than he was just in love with Jack...what kind of relationship did he have with Alma? He was 19, he met her probably at church, he got engaged. He hardly ever spoke to her, and this was before he met Jack, he had no real connection with her...only with a man could he connect that way. His sister got married, his brother got married, he was the only one left, he had no where to go. A man had to marry a woman, have children, and provide for them...that was what was expected of men in his society...he would never speak about his gay tendencies or even admit them to himself at that time in his life! He didn't want to be like Earl and Rich! He didn't want to be that queer in town...seen as an abomination by the community. So he got engaged to a woman in hopes of living a "normal" life and forgetting about that hidden part of himself he didn't want anyone to see. He perhaps thought that by burying his homosexual leanings they would eventually go away and he could be "normal". Till he met Jack and he couldn't do that anymore, so he struggled for two decades.

I also believe Ennis was attracted to Jack from the moment he first saw him. But his body language is very subtle, he is not outgoing like Jack. Jack is outgoing, and comfortable in his own skin, confident. He casually leans against the truck...takes a good long look, then pretends to shave while looking at Ennis in a mirror...clearly a man who is seeing someone he is attracted to! As for Ennis, it is far less obvious...because he is so shy, and quiet. He steals glances bashfully, he looks down quickly...he was physically attracted to a man...and that man happened to be Jack who had just the right personality as well, but Ennis at the time had no clue about Jack's personality...he'd just seen him for the first time just a few minutes ago. As for him having a relationship with a man after Jack's death...again we don't know. He could have, or he may have not. If he didn't once again, it is far more to do with the fact that he felt so bad after hurting Jack all those years, that he felt it would be disloyal to him to try and find anyone else. He was too heartbroken at that point, even though he'd finally admitted the truth to himself...it was too late for this life in his mind.

Love is a force of nature certainly doesn't mean that Ennis was a "tough, straight man" with a stolen heart. Love is a force of nature means that their love was strong like a force of nature, and that sexual orientation is not something that you choose or control...it is just innate. Ennis didn't choose to be a gay man, and for many years of his life didn't even want to be a gay man...but he just was and he had to learn to accept it, accept there was nothing wrong with him because he was that way, and accept and love his true self and the love that another man had for him. Also, was Ennis really tough? No...he was vulnerable, fragile, sensitive...but he hid behind a stoic, macho exterior...a big part of the reason he did that is because he was afraid of his real feelings. Jack saw right through the facade on the very first day...that's why he felt the need to nurture Ennis and comfort him and be so gentle with him. He saw how fragile Ennis really was underneath all that stoic bravado and tough cowboy facade.

 I believe Jack was special yes, but I never believe that there is only one person in the whole universe for some one. There may be one person for life, the one true love in that in life...but there are many potential people out there you will never meet in that life.  If any one of them had been met instead, then they would be your true love and life partner instead. Jack was the right one at the right time, and he became the one for life...but it is highly probable that had it not been Jack...it would have been someone else, another man with similar traits to Jack. Then he would have been the one true love and soul mate for life for Ennis and then Jack would have found another man similar to Ennis.

Right now, there could be a thousand people out there whom you can potentially have true love with, not just a relationship, but real true love like Jack and Ennis had, you just can't meet them, if circumstance are just right, you might meet one, just like Ennis unexpectedly met Jack. For example I knew someone a long time ago, but we lost contact and he married someone else...I could have had true love with him, but he is not the only person I could connect in that way with in the whole universe. I met him in class in college the first week of classes. He had just moved here from Canada a year before...what if he had stayed in Canada? Or what if I had gone to a different college or not taken that class? I would have never met him. Instead, I went to that college, and took that particular class, and I met someone who fell in love with me, but if circumstances had been different, it would have been someone else. What if Ennis had not applied for a job with at Aguirre's in '63? What if Jack hadn't applied? If he'd stayed in Lightning Flat or gone to Texas, or lived in Denver...Ennis wouldn't have met him. You see what I am trying to say? There are potentially a thousand other men other whose existences I'm currently unaware of, just like there were potentially a thousand other men Ennis could have met and fallen in love with, it's just that perhaps they lived in Florida, or Montana, or Canada, or France. He would never meet them, just like you can never meet all the potential life partners you can have in one lifetime...most you will never meet, your paths will never cross.

 But there will be one that you will meet, he will cross paths with you, and that is what happened when Jack and Ennis met in June 1963 looking for a job outside Aguirre's work trailer. Ennis might have never met Jack and still met a man like that later, the following year, or five, or ten years later... and then his homosexual orientation would have no choice but to surface like it did with Jack. The right person had to come along...and treat Ennis the right way. If that never happened...then Ennis would have been married to Alma till he died, and perhaps never acted on his feelings, perhaps got lucky and met someone like Jack after some years, or perhaps admitted his feelings when he was an older man, and left Alma...or perhaps killed himself because of the self-loathing, or perhaps convinced himself that he'd killed that queer part of himself...all possibilities if he'd never met Jack.

And no, I do not believe Ennis would have ever had an affair with another woman if he'd never met Jack. I think Ennis would have been completely faithful to Alma if he had been straight, if his marriage hadn't been a sham and a cover, it's just the type of person he is. Of course, Ennis wasn't straight, and the rest is history. Jack forced him to confront the hidden part of himself. Throughout the story, Ennis says things that show how deeply in denial he was about his orientation...something Jack knew, and Jack definitely seemed bothered by Ennis' denial, but of course he never voiced it.

 The bottom line is that Ennis met a man and was attracted to him and connected with him in every way, something he would NEVER have been able to do with a woman. Also I believe that Ennis might not have had the romantic relationship with Jack if his father had still been alive...maybe he would have because he would have felt safe on the mountain, but maybe he wouldn't have because he can get real paranoid about things like that...I think if his father had been alive his fear of his father finding out would have been too much for him.

[Mahogany]

Well... I know for myself that my thoughts are closer, just by watching the movie several times.
And the interviews, screenplay and short story I looked for after, just confirmed that. I'm not saying your wrong, because it's ambiguous, but my version makes more sense to me.
I also know Jack died at the car accident just like Lureen said, I know Alma Jr. knew about her daddy, I know what the wood horse Ennis was carving means, and I know what "Jack I swear" means...



Sorry if I seem rude, I'm brazilian and I can't express myself in english very good.

[bluemountainsky]

In the story, Ennis always says things that make it clear he is in a lot of denial. Someone that much in denial with his orientation...obviously knows deep down what it really is but is afraid to admit it because he's been conditioned that it is so wrong to be that way...it's sad and tragic, but I've seen many gay men that are the same way as him. Also, just the fact that he was attracted to a man that way and had the desire to be with him in that way...if he wasn't gay those feelings/desires wouldn't be there. No matter how lovely a person Jack is, Ennis would have just loved him like a brother,  not a lover. The desire to be romantic with Jack (which Ennis doesn't show for any woman) definitely came from deep inside his heart where he'd buried it. Just because he was not as open about it like Jack was it doesn't mean he was any less gay.

 It is clear also that Jack did indeed arouse Ennis sexually. I mean, Ennis had sex with him one, two, three times a day for the rest of that summer and then later for two decades every time they met afterwards! Ennis and Jack made love every time they were together, and Ennis had a deep romantic connection with another man...clearly a man must be gay for that to happen. The only passionate intimacy he had in his life was with a man. In the film, Ennis is really the same way..he is so deeply closeted that it took a miracle to bring him out. I do agree that he was probably the type of gay man that would have hidden it forever, and just been with his wife if he had not met Jack, or a man similar to Jack. I don't agree that would mean he was straight...he'd just be a closet gay man in denial. You would be surprised at how many people like Ennis there are out there...it's sad isn't it?

Some of the interviews seemed to me made to appease a mainstream audience. Like I said, when the movie first came out, there was an apprehension of what mainstream society's reaction would be to it, so it was easier in interviews for them to say that it's not about gay men, since society sadly, still has such a negative view of gay men. This film is important because it shows that gay men are normal...that they aren't the stereotype a lot of people have in their heads...Ennis and Jack were not promiscuous men, hitting the clubs all night dressed in flashy clothes. It was to show that gay men are human just like everyone else, and they can have true love. It shows them in a very positive light, that is important. Ang Lee did say that yes he believes both of them were gay, just Ennis was not as comfortable with that fact as Jack. Jack I guess was a rare type of man back then...he didn't have that same fear and didn't let what society taught him make him hate himself...even now there are many gay men who aren't as courageous and confident in themselves as Jack was in the 1960s. I guess people say he was more gay simply because he was more open... and Ennis wasn't, the difference between the two men is that one is comfortable with his feelings, and the other is not, till the end I believe Ennis came out of the closet so to speak. Oh and no your English is fine...don't worry. You don't seem rude to me, and I'm not trying to be either...I just enjoy discussion and character analysis

I know I write a lot, but I just love this movie and I love talking about it and the characters, especially Ennis because he is so complex, and Jack, because I am in love with him...well of course I know he would have had no interest in me, because I'm a woman, but what I mean to say is that I love the character...he is a dreamer and so sweet and gentle with Ennis, such a kind and patient lover. I watched this movie five or six times. The first time I saw it was in 2010...which I realize is a lot later than most people...I can't believe I hadn't heard of it till then.

[lancecowboy]

Mahogany, bluemountainsky,  to you both.

The debate on Ennis and his sexually has been going on forever, and there is another thread for it... Was Ennis Gay?

Personally, I think Ennis was bisexual, and only fell in love with Jack. In the short story, Ennis told Jack that he thought about Jack all the time but never another man. Ennis had other male friends but never attraction for them. Jack was definitely 100% gay. His relationship with Lureen could be done over the phone. Ennis kept Cassie pretty happy. On a scale of 1 to 100, Jack was 100 and Ennis was 1...it just happened that Jack was the one. 

If Ennis never met Jack, I suspect he'd marry Alma, and may still be divorced after half a dozen years, then marry Cassie. He may even lived happily with Cassie, as discussed elsewhere that Cassie was the female version of Jack.

[bluemountainsky]

I still disagree...especially about the part that Jack was 100, and Ennis was 1...I don't understand why people see "straight" when they look at Ennis. I guess it is because of how deeply closeted he was...but I certainly don't see that it translates as him being straight, if anything, it just shows how much he was affected by society's homophobia, to the point where he denied who he was because he wanted to be "normal" so bad ... just because he would not admit he was queer (at least before Jack's death, afterwards, I believe he did come to the realization that he was indeed a "queer" like Jack was...and that it was okay and not wrong), it doesn't mean that he was a straight man. Of course he isn't going to admit to Jack if he thought of other men or if he was queer, because he couldn't handle the truth about himself! He was a homophobic homosexual man, the worst thing to be in such a society. When I look at Ennis, all I see is an extremely closeted gay man, and I've seen so many like that, both characters in fiction, and acquaintances and friends of mine. Just because Ennis married Alma or dated Cassie or was never with any man except Jack...these are not things that mean he was not gay or less gay than Jack, those things are totally irrelevant, and only spoke for Ennis's need to to hide and be seen as a straight man by society.

 If we are using a scale, I would say that Ennis and Jack were both the same level of gay, whether that be 60 or 80, or 100, well it's something that can't really be measured. In the era they lived in, being with women really means nothing. We know that there are many many gay who have done the same...and we know there must have been a lot of Ennises out there, I'm sure a lot of gay men who are now elderly would identify with Ennis. Heck, it's the year 2014, but I bet there are millions of Ennises out there, especially in places where homosexuals are persecuted and it is taught that it is a horrible sin. Bottom line is that I believe they (J & E were both gay, but there was a difference between them...Jack was the open one and Ennis was the closet case. I see that in a lot of stories with homosexual characters, where one partner is far more open about being gay than the other.

 Ennis tried to actively to be straight...while Jack didn't really do so, because he was far more comfortable with his sexuality and orientation. Ennis tried to fight it and deny it so that is the reason he would never admit about ever thinking about another man. If you have to tell yourself you're not queer as many times as Ennis told himself...then it's clear deep down you know the truth is that you really are. Ennis I think was the type of gay man that thought he could make himself straight if he tried...this is a testament to the terribly detrimental effect of homophobia. He would never admit to himself that he was attracted to any other man than Jack...because he did not want to deal with his real self, and in his mind he tried to compartmentalize it and convince himself so hard that he wasn't queer. I truly believe that Jack could not been the only man that Ennis had the potential to fall in love with...Ennis just did not meet another man who was similar to Jack. It's also not like Ennis actively went looking for a woman either...Cassie was the female version of Jack and a lot of people think he only turned her down because he was in love with Jack...but I believe this is not true. Cassie was not a man was the real reason.

I believe even if Ennis had tried to live that straight life, never met Jack, then eventually divorced Alma, and Cassie came along...it still wouldn't work out, and the reason for it would be that Ennis is a closet gay man who hates his own feelings and doesn't want to admit them...but deep down he knows it. This is typical of many gay men who were as extremely closeted and in denial as Ennis. Last night I was watching a Cold Case tv marathon, an episode came on where the guy was just like Ennis...even when he's 70 years old he still denies the fact that he's gay, because he thinks saying it out loud will make it true...but of course in his heart he knows it. The detectives just roll their eyes at him and tell him "sure...", but they are sympathetic towards him because they know that he's just a victim of a homophobic society.

The saddest thing about the homophobic society is that it makes some people hate themselves and hide their true self because they feel so ashamed of who they really are. I don't believe that it was possible for Ennis to form the connection that he did with Jack with a woman...he could never love any woman in the way he loved Jack, he could never bond with a woman, and bring his real emotions out the way he does when he's with Jack with a woman...no matter how much like Jack the woman is, she's still a woman, and it's clear that Ennis desires a man for that type of bond. The only lover able to reach Ennis on a deeper level and bring out the playful, loving, sensitive, vulnerable Ennis, the real Ennis was a man. Like I've said before...the feelings for Jack came from somewhere...I don't believe that Jack is the only person in the universe that can make Ennis feel that way...if Ennis wasn't gay that desire and romantic feeling for Jack would not be there. You can love someone deeply without any romance and desire...the way you love your parent or sibling or kid. You can love a friend of the same sex that way too.

But what happened with Jack and Ennis was obviously not that platonic love. Ennis was capable of loving a man that way, and not really capable of loving a woman, I might add, that says a lot about Ennis's true orientation. The only romance he had in his life was with a man, he tried with two women, and it was a miserable failure...and I don't believe him already being in love with Jack was the reason for that...if he was such a "straight" man...or even a bisexual one...he would have had at least had some romantic feeling for a woman. It wouldn't be as strong as with Jack, but it would be a real relationship, and sorry, but those relationships he had with Alma and Cassie were clearly both desperate and futile efforts to try and force himself to be straight. If he had never met a man like Jack, I don't believe he would go looking for anyone, man or woman. He's too shy and introverted to go looking anyway..I do believe that he is not comfortable around women in romantic situations. He would just marry Alma and be married to her till one of them died, most likely in old age.

If she had died before him, I don't think he would have re-married. He and Alma would have probably been married 50 or 60 years. It wouldn't be because they had true love, it would be because Ennis would just live the life expected of him and "kill" that real part of himself he doesn't want to deal with. Of course, maybe during the marriage, he would meet someone just like Jack...then I believe he would have been with that man and that man only, it could have been Jack, or it could have been a guy named Dan or Larry, or whatever...Ennis just happened to meet Jack and he became the one. About Ennis having other male friends...it doesn't see like he had any friends really. Introverted people like him usually don't...the introvert prefers to be alone. He had co-workers and bosses, but I don't believe he really spoke to them unless it was a few words about the weather or work. Then he'd go home from work and not really socialize...if he went out to eat or drink in a bar...he'd always sit by himself not talking to anyone...as we see when Cassie first talks to him. He was always alone unless he was with his daughters. He preferred to keep to himself, and also he was uncomfortable around people for a number of reasons. One is that he was very shy, it was just part of his personality, the other is because he was afraid that people would suspect he was queer. He even voiced that concern to Jack when he told him that he felt people around his town were looking at him and could tell his secret.

 Also, whenever Ennis said things like this, it was that tacit admission of the truth...if you're really straight Ennis...then why would you be so worried of them looking at you and thinking you're queer? On some deeper level, Ennis knew he was a gay man...but it was so difficult for him to accept his feelings because of what he'd been taught and his fears. I think in the end, he did make a great step forward because he finally accepted himself. I think there was a quote about that somewhere. That in the end, he accepts he is a gay man, it doesn't mean he will march in a gay pride parade or go to a gay bar to meet men, but there was the acknowledgment that he was a gay man just like Jack and that Jack didn't make him that way, Jack only unlocked that part of Ennis that Ennis had tried to suppress.

[bluemountainsky]

I also remembered the fact of how Ennis would always react to when he felt that his secret might be known...or when he was forced to come face-to-face with his true feelings that first night in the tent. He would always react with aggressiveness and physicality, with anger (like when Alma confronted him and he grabbed her arm, then ran out the house, and started a fight with some random guy on the street). It was so different from the way Jack reacted if  anyone suspected he was gay. Jack was comfortable with it, he was secure. He would never react like he had something to prove. If I lived in that town and Ennis and Jack were guys I was acquainted with, saw around town, etc, and I didn't know they were gay...but I saw their behavior in public, who do you think I would think was the gay one? Ennis! If I saw Ennis getting all angry and saying things like "I'm not queer" and strutting around like had something to prove...and then I saw Jack effortlessly deflecting rumors about his orientation without a word, or with a smile and a wave good-bye, I would say "Yep, Ennis is the gay one, he's so obviously insecure and has something to hide, total closet case who can't deal with the truth about himself, and Jack has to be a straight man, he doesn't act like he has anything to hide at all and he's comfortable with himself and doesn't care what anyone thinks." I would never guess Jack was gay until I saw him actually flirting with a man. Only then would I realize it. But Ennis I would suspect from his over-the-top defensive attitude about it. Almost always the people who are like that are the ones with the feelings they don't want to address, confront, and admit...so part of the way they hide it is with anger and indignation and denial the way Ennis did. Ennis complained to Jack that he thought people knew...I can imagine why. I think half of Riverton knew he was gay, and the other half suspected. In a town like that where everyone knows everyone else's business...and what happened with Alma who must have told Monroe, after that it would be impossible for word not to get around.  Jack I think no one knew that whole time (In Texas, I mean, I know in Wyoming a few people knew) not even Lureen knew, who is a very smart woman and would have figured it out if there were any clues. I think only in the last few months of his life, Jack did something "careless", or obvious would be a better word, with Randall in front of the wrong people...and that's why he got killed.