Topic: Did they have to be gay to fall in love on the mountain?

[monicita]

Inspired by something Kathy wrote on the "was Ennis gay?" thread, I am asking myself: Together in the outdoors all that time, nobody else around, same age, same background. Could they even help falling in love? Wouldn't anybody fall for anybody else under those circumstances, provided there was a basic feeling of friendship for one another? Would I? Would you?

The test is: Try to imagine being on a mountain top with someone of a sex/gender you would not "normally" be attracted to, under those BBM circumstances. What do you think would happen?

monicita

[Asali]

I think that yes they would have to be gay even if until that time neither of them had ever realised it or rather come to terms with it. I think that if two people spent that much time together they would certainly form some attraction but I doubt it would become a sexual attraction if this was not part of them. I couldn't imagine for instance my husband becoming attracted to say his best mate in a sexual manner even if stranded together for years.

[NoReins]

I don't think they would necessarily have to have been gay in order to have some kind of sexual experience with each other. Two teenagers alone up on the mountain, no other company for months, hormones raging as they do at that age....and alcohol involved.....I think there's every chance that they would have experimented a little (for want of a better word), perhaps touching each other intimately and getting each other off using their hands (sorry, don't want to be too graphic here :-[)

BUT.....two straight teenagers would not fall in love with each other, no matter how lonely or isolated they were. Love involves emotions and feelings not just physical need. I think when Ennis says "this is a one shot thing" he thinks that there are no feelings involved - and perhaps there aren't at that stage - that it's just two horny boys getting their thrills in whatever way they can. But after the SNIT, there's no doubt that it goes far deeper than that, that there's a real attraction rather than just a "it's cold and there's no-one else here" kind of thing....and that's what I think wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been gay (whether or not they knew it)

[Patriot1]

Inspired by something Kathy wrote on the "was Ennis gay?" thread, I am asking myself: Together in the outdoors all that time, nobody else around, same age, same background. Could they even help falling in love? Wouldn't anybody fall for anybody else under those circumstances, provided there was a basic feeling of friendship for one another? Would I? Would you?

The test is: Try to imagine being on a mountain top with someone of a sex/gender you would not "normally" be attracted to, under those BBM circumstances. What do you think would happen?

monicita

I think you have to remember that there are all kinds of love. There is the love you have for your pet, your brothers and/or your sisters and other family members etc. etc. etc.  If Jack and Ennis were not gay I could still see them becoming great friends and loving each other....but not in a sexual way.  At least not in the short time they were on the mountain.

I couldn't imagine for instance my husband becoming attracted to say his best mate in a sexual manner even if stranded together for years.

Well, I think you have to remember that straight men in prison have sex with each other. Usually it is a straight guy with a gay guy but the fact remains, one started out straight.  With your husband and his best mate stranded alone for years, I think the only questions is; who is going to be the top and who is going to be the bottom or will they share the responsibility.

[Asali]

Inspired by something Kathy wrote on the "was Ennis gay?" thread, I am asking myself: Together in the outdoors all that time, nobody else around, same age, same background. Could they even help falling in love? Wouldn't anybody fall for anybody else under those circumstances, provided there was a basic feeling of friendship for one another? Would I? Would you?

The test is: Try to imagine being on a mountain top with someone of a sex/gender you would not "normally" be attracted to, under those BBM circumstances. What do you think would happen?

monicita

I think you have to remember that there are all kinds of love. There is the love you have for your pet, your brothers and/or your sisters and other family members etc. etc. etc.  If Jack and Ennis were not gay I could still see them becoming great friends and loving each other....but not in a sexual way.  At least not in the short time they were on the mountain.

I couldn't imagine for instance my husband becoming attracted to say his best mate in a sexual manner even if stranded together for years.

Well, I think you have to remember that straight men in prison have sex with each other. Usually it is a straight guy with a gay guy but the fact remains, one started out straight.  With your husband and his best mate stranded alone for years, I think the only questions is; who is going to be the top and who is going to be the bottom or will they share the responsibility.

Ok having thought about it again, yes the possibility is that they would have some activity of a sexual nature but I agree I doubt it would turn to love, not like it was for Ennis and Jack anyway.

[tpe]

Difficult question. 

I think for Ennis and Jack, it was special.  For others, sex would have been a possibility, and maybe some affection.  It is likely that nothing at all could happen.  I say all this whether or not the two people are gay.  Even between gay people, attraction that leads to deep love is special, and sex does not lead to affection in many cases.  And of course, many gay people who share a lot of time together and are good friends remain just that -- friends.

[welshwitch]

Adolescents isolated from the opposite sex, eg in boarding schools, frequently experiment with each other. doesn't mean they're gay, or that they're not. It seems likely to me that two young men in the situation of Ennis and Jack might very well indulge in some sort of sexual activity, as NoReins says, but it might only be temporary and once off the mountain they might become subject to social conditioning, public attitudes, family expectations, etc. Love is the wild card here - once that enters into things all other factors fade into insignificance. Not sex - anyone can have sex with anyone else without falling in love and without deciding they're straight or gay.

[Mars]

I think that yes they would have to be gay even if until that time neither of them had ever realised it or rather come to terms with it. I think that if two people spent that much time together they would certainly form some attraction but I doubt it would become a sexual attraction if this was not part of them. I couldn't imagine for instance my husband becoming attracted to say his best mate in a sexual manner even if stranded together for years.

I quote Asali's post.
A straight guy doesn't fall in love for another man.
Certainly some generic attraction may exist among friends, but
it's very difficult it'll be turn into a sexual and sentimental affair...

[aimi15]

Oooo, this is a great thread! And some great replies..

I think it would be entirely possible for two straight people to start experimenting with each other under those circumstances, and if not in a completely sexual sense i think after a while there would be more touching going on. By that, i mean to fulfil one of the basic human needs for contact. Maybe more back slapping, holding each other, or just sitting closer to each other.

Hmm, doesn't really answer the question. I have had female friends that i have loved very deeply, but it hasn't been the romantic love as in the case of Ennis and Jack, so my initial thought is that the sexuality of them both played a big part in the course of there relationship on the mountain. I'm not 100% sure yet though...

[MississaugaRed]

Nice one, monicita!  Can open, worms everywhere. 

Interesting and thought provoking responses, too, as always when the Brokies get to exploring ... Mars, Asali I certainly agree with both your posts!

My own sense of this would be that it's entirely possible for two straight people to grow to love one another under BBM conditions (assuming each was a decent human being) and it is entirely possible they could start up a physical relationship up there out of loneliness, whether they had genuine affection for each other or not.

BUT ... in the context of the question you're pondering, monicita ...  In Love implies to me something else entirely.  To be in love would suggest both an emotional and physical attraction, I think, and I don't see someone who is 100% heterosexual in orientation being able to make both connections work to the point of falling in love.  If they are attracted to the same gender and it's not just because it's the only option for release, then they would be at least bisexual .. I think ... (I'm not really sure what the "textbook" definitions are, if there are any, so forgive me if I step on any toes!).

So .. for me the distinction is drawn between loving & being IN love.  You can love or even have sex with someone of the same gender without being gay or bi ... but if you fall IN love (that has to include physical desire) with someone of the same gender ,there would have to be some flexibility in your sexual orientation, at the very least.  I think ...  

I'm mentioned before, one of my favourite things Jake Gyllenhaal said at last years TIFF .. "the difference between a best friend and a soul mate is the consummation (of the relationship)".  Doesn't that just sound like Jack and Ennis   

I personally choose to think that both men were either gay or bi to whatever degree in order for them to have fallen in love as deeply as they did.  Otherwise they would have kept the friendship, but moved away from the physical side of the relationship when they came down from the mountain.  Or used each other for sex up there and not seen each other at all later.  The way their relationship played out, I don't know that you could make an argument for either being strictly heterosexual.   .... just my 10 cents .. for what it's worth.  Looking forward to seeing the rest of the posts on this topic. 

[welshwitch]

I'm not sure i accept the definition Jake gave - to me a best friend is someone you trust, share values and confidences with, though not necessarily similar opinions. A soul mate is someone you meet who seems to be a missing part of you, but that doesn't necessarily imply a physical/sexual relationship though it might. In other words to me a soul mate is a spirtual or intellectual phenomenon. I'd go on to say, no doubt to shouts of derision, that it's entirely possible to fall in love with someone who is, and becomes, neither a best friend nor a soul mate. It's also possible to love someone regardless of whether they are friend, soul-mate, lover or total s**t.

Prince Charles has said a good many stupid things in his time, but when he replied, on being asked if he loved Diana, "Yes," then qualified it by saying, " whatever love is." I think he said something very true and very important. What does one mean by love and what does one mean by being in love? The two are quite different but one can mutate into the other in some cases. You need the Greek words to separate the concepts.

None of this has anything to do with gayness. For what it's worth, I think Jack was " gayer" than Ennis, and left alone Ennis while he might have grown to like and trust Jack probably wouldn't have had sex with him. Then of course despite having had sex there was no necessary reason for them to fall in love - it could have been a one-shot thing which ended with the summer.

Love strikes out of the blue, not always conveniently and often not in accordance with predetermined expectations. You can't predict or control it, though you can sometimes sense it growing.

[tpe]

Wonderful posts, everyone.  Truly wonderful and though-provoking.

Where does sentimental love end and romantic love begin?  What roles do sex and affection play in a possible admixture?

Gay or straight, love follows a path of a gradual opening up and of being accepted by the other in a deeper sense than simple friendship calls for.  The dynamic is remarkably similar in both cases.    In the case of Ennis and Jack, I believe it is the opening up to each other and the acceptance of each other's affections for one another -- and not enforced proximity  -- that was crucial.  Whether this was only possible if both of them were gay is a completely separate question.

 

 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

This is an interesting thread.

Personally, I think the possibility of two people falling for each other in this situation is more likely to happen with young people (late teens thru 20's) versus older adults.  Adults past the age of 30 will probably have a better sense of who they are.  If an older adult believes that they are hetero, a strong friendship that develops under these conditions is not likely to change that.  Of course there are always going to be those adults who may not acknowledge their true orientation until later in life.  That being the case, a BBM scenario could easily be a catalyst for coming to terms with their true identity.

[Asali]

I like what you have said CSC I do agree with all of it. 

[greenfrog]

This is an interesting thread.

Personally, I think the possibility of two people falling for each other in this situation is more likely to happen with young people (late teens thru 20's) versus older adults.  Adults past the age of 30 will probably have a better sense of who they are.  If an older adult believes that they are hetero, a strong friendship that develops under these conditions is not likely to change that.  Of course there are always going to be those adults who may not acknowledge their true orientation until later in life.  That being the case, a BBM scenario could easily be a catalyst for coming to terms with their true identity.

Great post CSC 

Very true as well.

[Philchel]

Why does the 'package' have such an importance when talking about love ?  Isn't being 'a man' or 'a woman' a package wrapped around personality ?   I think everybody can fall in love with whatever person but the packages makes most of us block the feelings since not appropriate (especially blocking before any sexual desires could come through, even kissing).
If gay means 'accepting' that you can fall in love with a person of the same sex than indeed you have to be gay to fall in love on the mountain.

[Short Leash]

This is the very thing that started to intrigue me about the movie the first time I saw it. I remember distinctly watching them to see if they showed any signs of being gay. I was preoccupied with it since the very fact that they both were very "masculine" really caught me off guard especially since they both stated that they "ain't queer."  I think that was part of the reason why, it made the movie very interesting to watch. I was trying to figure it out the the whole time and in doing so, it keep you wondering about a lot of other things that happened. What was the strong connection between them all about? I had to understand this. By the end of the movie, I had surmised that Jack was gayand maybe Ennis was bi because he was seemingly able to enjoy sex with his wife. Yes, I know Jack and is wife were "normal and all" but, we didn't really see that except for the making out in the car, it seemed to me, Jack was going along but, I don't think he was all that into it.

[tpe]

This is the very thing that started to intrigue me about the movie the first time I saw it. I remember distinctly watching them to see if they showed any signs of being gay. I was preoccupied with it since the very fact that they both were very "masculine" really caught me off guard especially since they both stated that they "ain't queer."  I think that was part of the reason why, it made the movie very interesting to watch. I was trying to figure it out the the whole time and in doing so, it keep you wondering about a lot of other things that happened. What was the strong connection between them all about? I had to understand this. By the end of the movie, I had surmised that Jack was gayand maybe Ennis was bi because he was seemingly able to enjoy sex with his wife. Yes, I know Jack and is wife were "normal and all" but, we didn't really see that except for the making out in the car, it seemed to me, Jack was going along but, I don't think he was all that into it.

Very well said, Short Leash.  To me, it's the sexual tension between them that is endlessly fascinating.  The fact that each one was struggling against himself (indeed, true also for Jack) made them very true to life.  I say "true to life" in the sense that everyone grapples with something deep within.  Their struggles and confusions remind us all too well of our own struggles and confusions.

[Diana]

I'd say, that it would be pretty easy to get involved with the happenings on similar circumstances as on Brokeback Mountain. Two basicly lonely people getting along that well, no wonder. The opposite would have rather surprised me, but not this one     

[tpe]

I'd say, that it would be pretty easy to get involved with the happenings on similar circumstances as on Brokeback Mountain. Two basicly lonely people getting along that well, no wonder. The opposite would have rather surprised me, but not this one     

Thanks, Diana.  Loneliness certainly pushes people to reach out when normally they would not be remotely receptive to an emotional connection.  Very well said.