Topic: Like coming away from the Pope

[masetane]

I have been catching the movie on HBO all weekend and week so have been doing some more thinking. Last night was the first time I didn't cry hard.

Can someone explain this to me...I feel a little silly asking but that's what this forum is for right??

In the last confrontation, Jack says "you used to come away easy, now it's like seeing the Pope." 
What does this exactly mean - what feeling is envocing?  I'm assuming not good but can anyone offer insight to that?

I have also been thinking that I *think* Jack was ready to move on. The difference in his eyes from the dozy embrace to the last meeting is very telling. I have no doubt that he loves Ennis but after 20 years, he has come at crossroads with himself. He is ready to take his life in another direction. Something that he doesn't see happening with Ennis.  I think that's why he decided it was just time in his life at 40 years old, to find the life he wanted and perhaps was ready to give it a try with Randall.  Heartbreaking  and a hard decision but how long can you fight for something.  Wonder if they would have kept up had Jack and Randall made the move to Lightning Flat. I'm sort of guessing that Jack would not have but hard question given their long history....

[tpe]

It would seem that in the early years, Ennis and jack would meet two or three times a year (from Lureen's comment in the blue parka scene).  But in later years, it is apparent that it got more and more difficult for Jack to get to see Ennis that often.  This is what Jack meant when he said this: that Ennis put up so many "excuses" in the later years that it became much easier in Jack's mind to request an audience with the Pope.

[jackster]

   I'm not Catholic so maybe I'm not authorized to answer this, but historically the Pope was considered “the most important person in the world” - at least the Western, Christian world. So in order to get an audience with the Pope you had to be extremely important yourself, and there was incredible protocol involved, even for Kings and Queens. The phrase was a common one that I recall hearing myself used in vernacular conversation. It was a put down used to express Jack’s frustration with Ennis.
   Of course, Jacks family (wife) owned their business so it was easy for him to get vacation time off. Ennis who was still doing basic manual labor found it much more difficult and was at the mercy of his boss. As he say’s he “used to quit the jobs” in order to get time off to meet Jack, as he got older this option presumably became less viable if he wanted to move up in a position of responsibility and greater pay. If he didn't (or couldn't) make the required child support payments they'd likely take his truck, or worse, his horses.

[masetane]

Oh see?  I didn't even think of  that. It makes sense that it is in reference in getting away to see each other. For some reason, I was thinking it was in reference in how they departed after seeing each other.
Ok - thanks for the clarification. 

so sad.  I think Ennis really loved his girls so that was another reason why it was hard .....

[tpe]

I think Ennis really had valid reasons in later years.  But I can't also help thinking that his fear also got the better of him over the years, and that he probably was also withdrawing instinctivley, perhaps unconsciously.

[masetane]

This is so interesting. I thought the same thing - Ennis had good reasons - child support, supporting himself, coming of an age where he wants to be more responsible...

Then I remembered jack blew off a week where Lureeen mentioned there were new models coming in and needed him as a salesperson..   But then again, money matters were different for both...

[welshwitch]

I think Ennis is also more aware of aging than Jack is - physical work becomes more demanding as time passes. He may be afraid that if he takes off, when he comes back he'll find he's been replaced - i doubt whether there was much legislation protecting employees in the kind of jobs he's doing.

Jack is much more secure - later on he is according to Lureen theonly salesman they have - no doubt it saves them paying an outsider and keeps it all in the family - so he could hardly be dumped without its affecting the business, thus Lureen has to put up with his taking off from time to time.

(Seeing the Pope is still pretty difficult these days, though I was in Rome once for Easter and he appeared on the balcony outisde St Peters. I was very busy eating an ice-cream at the time.)

[jackster]

He may be afraid that if he takes off, when he comes back he'll find he's been replaced - i doubt whether there was much legislation protecting employees in the kind of jobs he's doing.

Kind of OT but along the same lines. Ennis, as we know, repeated this manouver with his other love, Alma Jr. when he decides to let them "find themselves a new cowboy" and go to her wedding after all instead of his job at the roundup in the Tetons. Yet another of those great tie-ins with deeper meaning that makes this a masterpiece.

jackster

[tpe]

Yes, Ennis had indeed changed after Jack's death -- he had a new sense of where life's priorities lay.   He would not blow off Alma Jr. the same way he blew off Jack's entreaties to meet more often.

WW, you and the ice cream probably got a blessing and an offer of a Papal indulgence that day in St. Peter's. 

 

[welshwitch]

I've always thought the Pope mention was rather an odd one for Jack to make - he didn't come from a Catholic background or area associated with a Catholic population - though it's kind of typical of Jack that he'd make such an off-the-wall reference, I think.

(Thanks, tpe; I guess I need all the blessings I can get.)

[tpe]

I've always thought the Pope mention was rather an odd one for Jack to make - he didn't come from a Catholic background or area associated with a Catholic population - though it's kind of typical of Jack that he'd make such an off-the-wall reference, I think.

(Thanks, tpe; I guess I need all the blessings I can get.)

Yes, the comment did have an odd ring to it -- coming from Jack.  But to me, it made perfect sense the first time I heard it! 

[masetane]

Well here is sort of a thought....

Ennis would blow off his family so that he could go be with jack.....i.e never going on vacations (I think that was in the SS?)

But now with Jack gone,  there is no one to blow them off for? 

I do think he learned to be there for his family but that thought ran in my head too. He has no where else to go or anyone else to see....  wah!

[jackster]

Yes, the comment did have an odd ring to it -- coming from Jack.  But to me, it made perfect sense the first time I heard it! 

I remember hearing it here in the midwest growing up in the 60s/70s, even from Protestant friends. It was one of those common catch phrases - "Flimsy as a Ford fender", "More pills than Carter", etc. anyone that was hard to see, like getting an appointment with a special doctor in town might be like "Seeing the Pope".

[tpe]

Well here is sort of a thought....

Ennis would blow off his family so that he could go be with jack.....i.e never going on vacations (I think that was in the SS?)

But now with Jack gone,  there is no one to blow them off for? 

I do think he learned to be there for his family but that thought ran in my head too. He has no where else to go or anyone else to see....  wah!

I think Ennis pretty much withdrew a bit from everybody immediately after Jack died -- well, up until Alma Jr. invited him for the wedding.  Perhaps there is a glimmer of hope here.  Perhaps to those whom he loved that  were left -- his daughters -- he would keep the door open.   

I think it was never a question of blowing one off against the other -- after all, even if Ennis never went on vacations with the family, he pretty much restricted seeing Jack because of them.  It was just the difficulty of maintaing a balance and keeping both happy.  He ended up satisfying neither.    This was certainly the causde of Jack's frustration during the last meeting.

[tpe]

I remember hearing it here in the midwest growing up in the 60s/70s, even from Protestant friends. It was one of those common catch phrases - "Flimsy as a Ford fender", "More pills than Carter", etc. anyone that was hard to see, like getting an appointment with a special doctor in town might be like "Seeing the Pope".

Perhaps this is a more common turn of phrase thatn I initially supposed.  I wonder what the origin of this would have been.  It must have started among the Catholic neighbors -- but other than the reference to the Pope, I can't really tell...

[welshwitch]

I was brought up by the sort of Protestants who regarded "the Pope of Rome" as they always called him ( as if there was another one somewhere else) as an agent of the devil if not the devil incarnate, so there were never any references to him other than denunciations.    As a result I've always had a soft spot for Catholics and Catholicism - don't know what that proves. They didn't like gays either.....

[tpe]

I can't help thinking that Jack's refernce to the Pope also implied that Ennis had become more remote.  I remember Jack's comment about "...I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Perhaps Ennis's silence after this confession was partly construed as playing aloof...

 

[welshwitch]

He also seems to be complaining about the need to arrange the meetings, almost as though making an appointment. but that had always been the case, was inevitable really given their other lives, so maybe he's just complaining about th edifficulty of seeing Ennis when Ennis appears to be creating obstacles? I wondered if he was also saying something about Ennis being remote, keeping him at arms' length...

[tpe]

He also seems to be complaining about the need to arrange the meetings, almost as though making an appointment. but that had always been the case, was inevitable really given their other lives, so maybe he's just complaining about th edifficulty of seeing Ennis when Ennis appears to be creating obstacles? I wondered if he was also saying something about Ennis being remote, keeping him at arms' length...

Yes, it was beginning to look like formal protocol among lovers.   Perhaps Jack thought that Ennis was intentionally creating obstacles, for some deeply seated reason...

[jackster]

I remember Jack's comment about "...I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." Perhaps Ennis's silence after this confession was partly construed as playing aloof...

Ennis's silence here has always bothered me too.
In the final movie screenplay he replies to Jack: "I know the feelin'. . ."

This was apparently cut or not included in the film - I guess Ang had his reasons, maybe he felt Heath showed enough emotional pain in his face, or he felt that being "Ennis" he just couldn't utter words very well at the right times. No doubt these four words inserted at just this point would have distinctly altered our impression of their relationship in 1983. To me it would have helped in the understanding of the argument scene which was to follow, it would have clarified some of the inner pain Ennis was having which led to his breakdown in Jack's arms. MHO.

[welshwitch]

I know "silence gives consent" and all that, but Ennis's silence at that point implies to me that he either doesn't want to agrre with Jack/acknowledge that he feels the same, in case that gives Jack a handle on him, or that he doesn't share his feelings, and IMO it's the latter. I think Ennis, believing that he can't fix it and has to stand it, tries to put Jack out of his mind when they're apart and instead focuses on routine, whereas Jack plots and plans...

[manhattangirl]

Ennis's silence here has always bothered me too.
In the final movie screenplay he replies to Jack: "I know the feelin'. . ."

This was apparently cut or not included in the film - I guess Ang had his reasons, maybe he felt Heath showed enough emotional pain in his face, or he felt that being "Ennis" he just couldn't utter words very well at the right times. No doubt these four words inserted at just this point would have distinctly altered our impression of their relationship in 1983. To me it would have helped in the understanding of the argument scene which was to follow, it would have clarified some of the inner pain Ennis was having which led to his breakdown in Jack's arms. MHO.

I feel the same way about Ennis's silence after Jack's confession.   The next scene was that of them in the tent asleep, with Ennis's arm laying over Jack.  Was this just a non verbal answer?  Ennis's protective tendency towards Jack?   

[tpe]

Ennis's silence here has always bothered me too.
In the final movie screenplay he replies to Jack: "I know the feelin'. . ."

This was apparently cut or not included in the film - I guess Ang had his reasons, maybe he felt Heath showed enough emotional pain in his face, or he felt that being "Ennis" he just couldn't utter words very well at the right times. No doubt these four words inserted at just this point would have distinctly altered our impression of their relationship in 1983. To me it would have helped in the understanding of the argument scene which was to follow, it would have clarified some of the inner pain Ennis was having which led to his breakdown in Jack's arms. MHO.

True, Jackster, although I must admit that the silence, albeit bothersome, also seems to work in a different way.   Perhaps Ang Lee wanted to keep that image of Ennis as a stoic individual, not keen on sharing how he felt too openly.  Perhaps it still works in the final understanding of the last argument, in that Jack becomes uncertain as to whether Ennis is intentionally distancing himself...

[tpe]

I know "silence gives consent" and all that, but Ennis's silence at that point implies to me that he either doesn't want to agrre with Jack/acknowledge that he feels the same, in case that gives Jack a handle on him, or that he doesn't share his feelings, and IMO it's the latter. I think Ennis, believing that he can't fix it and has to stand it, tries to put Jack out of his mind when they're apart and instead focuses on routine, whereas Jack plots and plans...

This can certainly be read this way.   I go back and forth in the opinion that Ennis consented in silence, or else did not want to express his feelings to openly, as I had said in the above post.  Perhaps it was both...

[tpe]

I feel the same way about Ennis's silence after Jack's confession.   The next scene was that of them in the tent asleep, with Ennis's arm laying over Jack.  Was this just a non verbal answer?  Ennis's protective tendency towards Jack?   

That too is a good point, manhattangirl.  One could read Ennis's arm over Jack as a kind of affirmation.  IT certainly was an expression of love.  My deceased friend Robert used to say that this was his favorite shot of both of them.  I guess it's because it says a lot using very little.

[jackster]

I go back and forth in the opinion that Ennis consented in silence, or else did not want to express his feelings to openly, as I had said in the above post.  Perhaps it was both...

Genius Ang, again. Leaving things open to multiple intrepretations, mystery, and unending speculation. This seems so simple a concept, but in art is so terrifically difficult to do.

[tpe]

Genius Ang, again. Leaving things open to multiple intrepretations, mystery, and unending speculation. This seems so simple a concept, but in art is so terrifically difficult to do.

Yes, I think that this was very much Ang's stamp of subtlety and understatement.  And it is difficult to get just right.

So many question regarding the charges made by each of them in that final confrontation.  Even the comment about the Pope yields many ways of looking at Jack's state of mind.

[welshwitch]

Ambiguity, post-modernism or whatever. Ambiguity is one of the greatest tools of art - it's why we still argue about Hamlet's soliloquies 406 years on.

[tpe]

Ambiguity, post-modernism or whatever. Ambiguity is one of the greatest tools of art - it's why we still argue about Hamlet's soliloquies 406 years on.

I agree.

Given that this was not an odd thing for Jack to say, and given that similar references to the Pope were common in this milieu, then I would say that Ennis perhaps understood the deeper import all too clearly.  It was not just about skipping August -- it was about whether he loved Jack enough to be with him no matter what it cost.