Author Topic: Jack's Physical Nature (Read 12898 times)

smilesalot · « **on:** Jul 13, 2006, 11:36 PM »

Something struck me the other day, which I have been trying to process and am wondering if others can shed some light on this for me.

Jack seems to me to be portrayed as very strong physically...he's the one picking up the sheep and carrying them across the river, carrying logs, rodeoin, roping etc. Not to say Ennis wasn't strong but the impression I received was Jack was stronger. Yet, in the FNIT and when he's hooking up with Lureen, he lets Ennis and Lureen take the lead. This surprised me, cause I just assumed Jack would feel more comfortable being in control - being the stronger one. Even in his relationship with Ennis, he stands back, he waits, he goes by Ennis' schedule. Yet Ennis seems to be the more agressive of the two. I don't even know what my question is. Ugh. I'm just confused. Just thinking out loud. Well, I'll post this and see if anyone has any thoughts.

Rønnaug · « **Reply #1 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 01:30 AM »

I agree with you that Jack seems to be a strong guy...I think he takes a more "relaxed" role in his relationships is more about him beeing comfortable and not threatened if that made any sense

He isn't threatened by beeing attracted to Ennis, the way Ennis is, so he lets Ennis take the lead, at least in FNIT

I don't think Jack sees beeing gay as not beeing a man, but I think mayby Ennis does.

welshwitch · « **Reply #2 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 06:31 AM »

I thnk the carrying sheep, etc activities are included because they can be done on foot and Jake wasn't as secure on a horse as Heath. In the ss he's clearly strong, though he's had numerous rodeo injuries, which he details in the motel conversation. In FNIT I think he's letting ennis take the lead because he's not sure how far Ennis is willing to go and doesn't want to scare him off. TheLureen scenes ar surely meant to show his lack of interest in/experience of women.

tpe · « **Reply #3 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 06:40 AM »

Yes, I think Jack was much more relaxed as far as sexual roles were concerned. But was he always on the passive ned? Perhaps, but we are not absolutely sure...

welshwitch · « **Reply #4 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 07:42 AM »

He doesn't seem passive in SNIT - can't you be one or the other (? top or bottom in the jargon, which I know little about) ? He's the aggressor, if you can put it that way, in the Jimbo scene, but not with Randall, who's shown making all the running. I like the idea that Jack just goes with the flow and takes the opportunities as they come.

smilesalot · « **Reply #5 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 03:27 PM »

Ah yes, I see what was bugging me now. I quickly shared in another post that I had read someone label him as a sexual predator. This didn't sit right with me and I've come to the conclusion that he wasn't. He may have been more willing to explore his sexuality but not to extent that he was a "predator". His strength shows he could have been sexually agressive, but he wasn't. Even in SNIT it was Ennis that first came to the tent, and Jack gave him plenty of time to ease into whatever was happening and set the pace...

lamusica · « **Reply #6 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 04:26 PM »

Maybe Jack is just the strong, silent type. (I don't mean he doesn't talk) I mean he is physically strong, but doesn't feel the need to be dominant at all times. The physical and the emotional are separate to some degree. I agree that Jack just didn't know how far he could go with Ennis. He took a big chance reaching for Ennis's hand. Ennis could have just cold-cocked him and left the tent -- even left the mountain. That was a risk Jack had to take. Luckily for all of us and Jack and Ennis, Ennis reacted as Jack had hoped. It would have been a mighty short movie if he hadn't!!!

FlwrChild · « **Reply #7 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 05:12 PM »

And keep in mind that being physically strong doesn't mean that you have to dominate. Jack was more comfortable with people in general than Ennis. And he was much more open emotionally so it makes sense that he would let Ennis set the pace with a lot of the relationship. Plus he knew what he wanted and was willing to 'go with the flow' in order to facilitate getting that. Just IMO.

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #8 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 06:12 PM »

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 14, 2006, 03:27 PM

Ah yes, I see what was bugging me now. I quickly shared in another post that I had read someone label him as a sexual predator. This didn't sit right with me and I've come to the conclusion that he wasn't. He may have been more willing to explore his sexuality but not to extent that he was a "predator". His strength shows he could have been sexually agressive, but he wasn't. Even in SNIT it was Ennis that first came to the tent, and Jack gave him plenty of time to ease into whatever was happening and set the pace...

Hi smilesalot

Obviously I don't know exactly which post you're refering to, but I do remember I posted something somewhere along the lines of Jack going from predator to prey in the scenes where he meets Lureen. If that's the post you mean, I wasn't labelling Jack (or Lureen, for that matter), as a sexual predator, in the sense of going around sexually harrassing people, just that he was the sort of guy who knew what he wanted, and wasn't afraid to make a move to try and get it. In all relationships, someone always has to make the first move, and in Jack's case, he was usually the one to do it, but not in a threatening or aggresive way, more like well, let's just have a go and see what happens

Like I said, you might be talking about an entirely different post, in which case I apologise, and just ignore my rambling, but I thought I'd better clear it up, just in case

smilesalot · « **Reply #9 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 09:43 PM »

Oh thanks CrimsonSky -- it was actually on another site -- may have even been a movie review or something. I just get so protective over my "boys", I just hate any kind of comment that seems to diminish and cheapen what they had. I might have seen your post actually, but didn't get the sense you were putting Jack down. Of course the focus of BBM is on Ennis and his growth and experiences but I just find Jack so complex, no wonder I just love both of them so much! This movie/story deals with so many stereotypes yet it can't be "labeled" because each character has such depth, right down to little Alma Jr. and Cassie. All the relationships reflect each other...and, as I've said before...Heath and Jake's acting. Wow. I just watched the movie with headphones on...LOL...and the chord is not very long so I'm like a foot away from my big screen TV. LOL. And I just started to notice that glint of tears in both Heath & Jake's eyes at certain poignant moments. (other than the obvious scenes where we know they're crying). Gets me every time. So everybody better shut up about them boys. This ain't they're fault!

ohio.myown · « **Reply #10 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 10:44 PM »

Hello, this is my first time to respond, haven't been on this site much. But your question is intriguing in that it reveals too parts of the same person. From the very first moment they met, Jack was offering conversation, empathy, "Shit, that's hard.", friendship, a connection. Then after they began to get to know and enjoy each other, Jack was the one offering his love, affection, sex, whatever Ennis would accept, to Ennis. He was very open to whatever happened, but worried that it would not be accepted. He Wanted Ennis but he didn't know if Ennis Wanted Him back. So, he was tentative.

Physical strength is one thing, but self confidence is built from knowing you are loved and wanted by the people in your life, and from proving yourself worthy in skills that you value. Jack didn't have that.

With Lureen, Jack let her pick him up because she was the only person offering attention, conversation, a warm body and later, three square meals a day. He was starving on that rodeo circuit. Most of us would do the same if someone came after us, it's flattering. And, don't forget, he wasn't that interested in girls, so he just let her lead him where she wanted him.

ms.bluesky · « **Reply #11 on:** Jul 14, 2006, 10:53 PM »

i agree with u smilesalot cause in the Reunion Ennis pushes jack to the wall first and was the first to um u know in the tent scene i think that Ennis is the one who was more aggressive

smilesalot · « **Reply #12 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 07:19 AM »

[Physical strength is one thing, but self confidence is built from knowing you are loved and wanted by the people in your life, and from proving yourself worthy in skills that you value. Jack didn't have that.

Welcome Ohio. Thanks for posting. You've made some good points. I was wondering myself about the Lureen hook-up - if it was just, "Hey, I'm starving here, she's rich so I'm going to get with her." I don't know what it is about Jack, he's almost got this passive-agressive thing going on where he initiates things, but then sits back and lets others make the move sexually. Even in the beginning when he first sees Ennis, he takes a few steps as if to say "Hey, cowboy" and then sees Ennis isn't open to that so backs right off respectfully. However, he's totally checking him out in the mirror and is the first to initiate shaking hands.

Oh yes, a few people have said he doesn't have much experience with girls. Where does this come from? (Not arguing, just asking) When he does his little rodeo dance he says " Wavin at all the girls in the stands" so I thought maybe he was a bit of a player with the girls. Or maybe he was just saying that to impress Ennis? Don't know. I did get the impression he was obviously more experienced sexually, but didn't get the impression he was inexperienced with girls.

welshwitch · « **Reply #13 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 08:41 AM »

He seemed a bit taken aback by Lureen's topless act!

ohio.myown · « **Reply #14 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 11:36 AM »

[ I don't know what it is about Jack, he's almost got this passive-aggressive thing going on where he initiates things, but then sits back and lets others make the move sexually.]

[Oh yes, a few people have said he doesn't have much experience with girls. Where does this come from?]

Hi smilesalot! (I do love your name) Well, in my opinion, Jack isn't passive aggressive at all, no not Jack Twist. I believe fully that he is just waiting for a sign that his advances will be accepted. Imagine if you will, how he grew up, how many hugs do you think he ever got? How many good night kisses, or bedtime story with mama rubbing his back as he sat on her lap? The boy was starving for affection, even as much as food, and if he ran up and smiled and said hello, but got nothing much back [hello Ennis Del Mar] well, he would just back off thinking life was continuing to hand him nothing. Being Jack, he kept trying to get love though.

With Ennis, he finally hit the jackpot, no pun, because Ennis was as starved for affection, love, Belonging, as Jack was. They were made for each other, but alas, made to thwart each other's needs as well.

Think about Jack Twist, he tried hooking up while out on that rodeo circuit, but it was always with men, or boys because that is who he was attracted to. Yes, most were as dirt poor as he. At times he succeeded, most times not, and it was dangerous to push such an idea [there were gay bashers even then]. I believe that he would only have been with a girl if she initiated the contact, or if she went after him. Lureen did.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #15 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 11:53 AM »

Welcome ohio.myown! I agree with everything you said! And I also don't think Ennis was the aggressor in FNIT just because he was (pardon me) on the 'giving' end of things. Jack initiated (nothing passive-aggressive there), Ennis responded and nature took its course. Later, Jack went up the mountain to meet Ennis, then took his cues from Ennis from there on. A fair amount of balance/give and take, and usually with Jack making the first move. Boy, I'll tell you all, whatever the interpretation, all this talk is making me want to watch it all over again!

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #16 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 06:52 PM »

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 14, 2006, 09:43 PM

Oh thanks CrimsonSky -- it was actually on another site -- may have even been a movie review or something. I just get so protective over my "boys", I just hate any kind of comment that seems to diminish and cheapen what they had. I might have seen your post actually, but didn't get the sense you were putting Jack down.

Glad that's cleared up, then!

I know what you mean about being protective of our boys, I think we all are, but I also wouldn't want anyone getting the impression I would ever say anything bad about Jack

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 15, 2006, 07:19 AM

Oh yes, a few people have said he doesn't have much experience with girls. Where does this come from? (Not arguing, just asking) When he does his little rodeo dance he says " Wavin at all the girls in the stands" so I thought maybe he was a bit of a player with the girls. Or maybe he was just saying that to impress Ennis? Don't know. I did get the impression he was obviously more experienced sexually, but didn't get the impression he was inexperienced with girls.

I'm guessing that on the rodeo scene, the guys taking part were like the equivalent of pop stars, or footballers,getting plenty of offers from girls, so the whole "waving to the girls in the stands" was probably part of the "act", so to speak. Jack probably had girls queueing round the block for him, but that doesn't mean he would've done anything about it. In the scene in the car with Lureen he seems to me, to be totally unsure of what to do, that's why he's happy to let Lureen take the lead *feeling faint here, thinking about Jack's fast or slow line

And breathe...Right,I'm ok now* But with Ennis (or even the dreaded Jimbo and Randall), he's the complete opposite, he's confident and sure of himself, and he knows what he wants, and what to do when he gets it. I think if he had any kind of experience with girls, he wouldn't have been so passive with Lureen,I know part of the reason for that is that she's not really what he wants, but I think he is attracted to her, but it doesn't come naturally for him to show it, like it would with a man.If he was experienced with girls, I think he would've found it easier.

welshwitch · « **Reply #17 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 09:49 AM »

He almost gives the impression he doesn't know what to do with Lureen, which given the way he behaves with Ennis in SNIT is odd if he's expereinced with women - I can't imagine any woman not responding to that sort of treatment. Which is why i think any revious expereince he's had has either been with men exclusively or with women to a very limited degree. And as people keep saying, this is the sixties when things were different from the way they are now - any kind of extra-marital sex was difficult even for hetero couples.

smilesalot · « **Reply #18 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 09:56 AM »

Okay, yes, I get what everyone's saying. It's hard to remember that they were both only 19. Jack seemed more sure of himself when making eyes at Jimbo and of course with Ennis in SNIT, but with Lureen he was fumbling around a bit.

lamusica · « **Reply #19 on:** Jul 16, 2006, 11:11 AM »

But I DO think Jack was interested in Lureen. After he picked up her hat and gave it back to her, he must have remembered her smile, so, when he's in the bar and sees her sitting at a table, he keeps sneaking peeks at her. She finally took the reins and approached him, but he might have eventually gone over to talkto her. After all, he DID ask the bartender who she was. Theree was some kind of interest there. She was the prettiest girl in west Texas, as he tells Ennis and Alma. Again, I think Jack was very unsure of himself. In the story, that might be possible, but when Jake plays Jack, it's hard to see how anyone could turn him down! Jake is so aware of his sexiness, but Jack wasn't.

tpe · « **Reply #20 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 07:59 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jul 16, 2006, 11:11 AM

But I DO think Jack was interested in Lureen. After he picked up her hat and gave it back to her, he must have remembered her smile, so, when he's in the bar and sees her sitting at a table, he keeps sneaking peeks at her. She finally took the reins and approached him, but he might have eventually gone over to talkto her. After all, he DID ask the bartender who she was. Theree was some kind of interest there. She was the prettiest girl in west Texas, as he tells Ennis and Alma. Again, I think Jack was very unsure of himself. In the story, that might be possible, but when Jake plays Jack, it's hard to see how anyone could turn him down! Jake is so aware of his sexiness, but Jack wasn't.

I certainly think that Jack did have affection for Lureen. To say that he married Lureen for the money is perhaps a bit too cynical. And he did seem to genuinely love his son.

Even though Jack would have dropped everything -- wife and son included -- to be with Ennis did not mean that Jack never loved Lureen. Every indication in the early scenes would seem to say that he did have some measure of interest and regard for her.

smilesalot · « **Reply #21 on:** Jul 17, 2006, 07:58 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 17, 2006, 07:59 AM

Quote from: lamusica on Jul 16, 2006, 11:11 AM
But I DO think Jack was interested in Lureen. After he picked up her hat and gave it back to her, he must have remembered her smile, so, when he's in the bar and sees her sitting at a table, he keeps sneaking peeks at her. She finally took the reins and approached him, but he might have eventually gone over to talkto her. After all, he DID ask the bartender who she was. Theree was some kind of interest there. She was the prettiest girl in west Texas, as he tells Ennis and Alma. Again, I think Jack was very unsure of himself. In the story, that might be possible, but when Jake plays Jack, it's hard to see how anyone could turn him down! Jake is so aware of his sexiness, but Jack wasn't.

I certainly think that Jack did have affection for Lureen. To say that he married Lureen for the money is perhaps a bit too cynical. And he did seem to genuinely love his son.

Even though Jack would have dropped everything -- wife and son included -- to be with Ennis did not mean that Jack never loved Lureen. Every indication in the early scenes would seem to say that he did have some measure of interest and regard for her.

Oh thank you TPE, I totally agree with this! I just find Jack to be a romantic figure. I find he just goes with his emotions, not really thinking too far ahead, and I think with Lurreen it was more like, wow, she's cute and let's run with this for a while. I think he thought he loved her -- maybe not enough to forget Ennis -- but enough to help him with his loneliness. And yes, he seemed to enjoy his son. Could be he would have loved Lureen more if old L.D wasn't such a turd. It's true Jack was starving when he met Lureen and maybe that crossed his mind when he was getting with her but IMO he wouldn't have gone through with getting married to her if he didn't feel something for her. Seems to me Jack is so motivated by his feelings, I hate to think of him as calculating and cold. Maybe that's why it took him so long to contact Ennis. Out of respect for Lureen, he genuinely wanted to give the marriage a chance. What was it...about a year or two after Jack & Lureen get married that he hooks up with Ennis again?

welshwitch · « **Reply #22 on:** Jul 18, 2006, 05:31 AM »

He leaves Ennis in the late summer of 1963. The reunion takes place in the summer of '67 when Bobby is 8 months old. From which it's impossible to tell how long Jack has been married to Lureen - I assume he went to Texas in or after the summer of '64, when he'd been back to Aguiirre and couldn't get a job - then he talks in the motel scene of having almost starved that year while he was trying to bull-ride. He could have married Lureen in '65 or '66, and unless she was pregnant when they married before November '66.

I tend to assume the rodeo scene involving Luren took place in summer '67 and they married that autumn; by the time Bobby was born it became apparent to Jack that LD was never going to accept him and Lureen wasn't going to oppose her father openly, so that's when he sends the first postcard. It also crosses my mind that Lureen, having produced the necessary son to inherit the Newsome business, may not be all that interested in sex anyway, but then I always want to make excuses for Jack....

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Jul 18, 2006, 07:21 AM »

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 17, 2006, 07:58 PM

Oh thank you TPE, I totally agree with this! I just find Jack to be a romantic figure. I find he just goes with his emotions, not really thinking too far ahead, and I think with Lurreen it was more like, wow, she's cute and let's run with this for a while. I think he thought he loved her -- maybe not enough to forget Ennis -- but enough to help him with his loneliness. And yes, he seemed to enjoy his son. Could be he would have loved Lureen more if old L.D wasn't such a turd. It's true Jack was starving when he met Lureen and maybe that crossed his mind when he was getting with her but IMO he wouldn't have gone through with getting married to her if he didn't feel something for her. Seems to me Jack is so motivated by his feelings, I hate to think of him as calculating and cold. Maybe that's why it took him so long to contact Ennis. Out of respect for Lureen, he genuinely wanted to give the marriage a chance. What was it...about a year or two after Jack & Lureen get married that he hooks up with Ennis again?

Well, I think you did hit the mark here: Lureen, the Mexican hustler, Randall -- are they not mirrors of Jack's inner loneliness?

Ennis is a study of inner loneliness burrowing deeper and deeper inside. Jack is a study of inner loneliness seeking to burst out and be free.

For Jack, love and liberation are tied ever so closely with each other. In this sense, Jack's nature is closer to the sensibility that still informs many of us today.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #24 on:** Jul 18, 2006, 07:26 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 18, 2006, 07:21 AM

Ennis is a study of inner loneliness burrowing deeper and deeper inside. Jack is a study of inner loneliness seeking to burst out and be free.

Beautiful. Simple. And straight to the heart of our boys.

tpe · « **Reply #25 on:** Jul 18, 2006, 07:34 AM »

Thanks FlwrChild. For every physical nature, there is an inner mental/spiritual aspect that informs it, no?

Seeing the way our Boys act and interact, we invariably take a peek at how their souls intertwine. Their physical and internal natures are one.

ksxks · « **Reply #26 on:** Jul 18, 2006, 07:03 PM »

Quote from: smilesalot on Jul 14, 2006, 09:43 PM

Oh thanks CrimsonSky -- it was actually on another site -- may have even been a movie review or something. I just get so protective over my "boys", I just hate any kind of comment that seems to diminish and cheapen what they had. I might have seen your post actually, but didn't get the sense you were putting Jack down. Of course the focus of BBM is on Ennis and his growth and experiences but I just find Jack so complex, no wonder I just love both of them so much! This movie/story deals with so many stereotypes yet it can't be "labeled" because each character has such depth, right down to little Alma Jr. and Cassie. All the relationships reflect each other...and, as I've said before...Heath and Jake's acting. Wow. I just watched the movie with headphones on...LOL...and the chord is not very long so I'm like a foot away from my big screen TV. LOL. And I just started to notice that glint of tears in both Heath & Jake's eyes at certain poignant moments. (other than the obvious scenes where we know they're crying). Gets me every time. So everybody better shut up about them boys. This ain't they're fault!

You're so right, about these characters -- they cannot be easily or superficially discerned. (Why we're all still here discussing them at length.)

I remember CrimsonSky's post, too, and she was not saying Jack was a "sexual predator" in the sense that that phrase is used today. (And that's a whole other interesting part of a thread, about Jack being active or passive in his pursuits.) Whoever said Jack is a sexual predator is totally clueless about what's really going on in this movie, probably clueless about the reality of gay men or women, and probably clueless about a lot else. I am not diminishing the reality of sexual predators and their victims, but that is so not what's happening or even relevant here. To even bring the "sexual predator" reality into this movie makes me as mad as it does you, smilesalot.

That's like when they lump "homosexuality" and "bestiality" together -- I mean! Honest to god, they do. Or they used to say "wine" and "women" as both "vices" that men would have. Excuse me, I am not a "vice."

Anyway...

kathy