Topic: Which was the worst lie?

[monicita]

I think there are different levels of lies being told and lived in BBM. For me, the worst lie is always the lie you tell yourself (i.e.: "I'm not queer"). But it might also be argued that next comes the lie Ennis lived with Alma. Why do I think this is worse than what Jack lived with Lureen or Randall with LaShawn? Because she knew on another level than those two did. And she was the only one who confronted her man with it, even though it was after their divorce. In some ways this is the most heartwrenching scene for me: because Ennis is unable to stand up like a man and say: yes, I do go on these fishing expeditions with Jack. And it is what makes my life worth living. These are the two candidates for "worst lie in BBM" for me: The lie Ennis lives with himself and that he is unable to tell Alma the truth when she expressly asks him about his relationship with Jack. By the way - with "worst" I mean the most destructive and/or selfdestructive lie. I think there are lies that have to be (as Brian says in Queer as Folk: "It is not lying if they make you lie"). But where is the thin line between what you have to do and what destroys you morally, psychologically and sometimes even physically if you lie?

What do you think?

Monicita

[tpe]

Hello monicita!

I do think the worst lie were the marriages.  To live the lie, so they say, and I think their inability to face up to how they felt hurt not only them but their wives and children. 

But you are right: the greatest betrayal here was a betrayal of their own hearts.  They tried to lie to themselves that things would come to pass and that they could go on leading "normal" lives.  After the reunion, it was further componded by their thinking that they could have it both ways -- and ended up only making things worse.

The marriages were convenient.  They afforded some protection.  And even after Ennis's divorce, it provided him with an alibi not to move on and share Jack's dream.  It is toying with people's hearts -- in the worst possible manner -- if only to further one's inability to FEEL THE TRUTH in their own hearts.

This is the heart of darkness.

[lamusica]

I know we often discuss Ennis's living lie to Alma, but I think Jack has a long list of lies to account for.  Lies to Lureen, and, particularly, lies to Ennis.  I don't think Ennis ever lied to Jack -- correct me if I am wrong-- but Jack lied to Ennis everytime he had another man, or intended to, everytime he went to Mexico, everytime he denied being gay.
No, I'm not chastising Jack.  He did what he thought he had to do to protect his relationship with Ennis.  I might have done the same thing were I in his shoes.  However, Jack did live with a lot of lies, and the biggest was the same as Ennis's biggest lie -- to himself.  Each man refused to see and act upon what they really were -- homosexual.  Granted, there were lots of reasons to act as they did, but it amounts to the same thing -- a lie to themselves.  What tpe says above hits the nail on the head.  They lived their lie. That's alot of baggage to carry around.

[manhattangirl]

Interesting question.   

IMO:  Monitcita makes an excellent point, Alma was the only one that confronted Ennis with truth about who he was.   Jack on the other hand never did.  Ennis most fatal lie, "I'm not queer",  Ennis believed it, Jack went along with it.  And Jack at no time in the twenty years of loving Ennis, watching Ennis's struggles ever confronted him. 

Jack knew what he himself was, I'll always believe that, but to me the interesting part is that Jack would admit it by slipping away to Mexico, finding other relationships with men,  but never challenged Ennis about his own identity or even tell Ennis honestly "Yes I'm queer", both going along with pretense of living a "straight life", and having his "gay lover".

Was this out of fear of losing each other, of being found out, maybe, but the tragic part of it, the both of them could not admit it to each other, if they did how different could it have been on the most personal level of their relationship to say "Hey, we are queer",  the most fatal lie was the one they told each other in order to hold on to each other.   

 

[tpe]

I know we often discuss Ennis's living lie to Alma, but I think Jack has a long list of lies to account for.  Lies to Lureen, and, particularly, lies to Ennis.  I don't think Ennis ever lied to Jack -- correct me if I am wrong-- but Jack lied to Ennis everytime he had another man, or intended to, everytime he went to Mexico, everytime he denied being gay.
No, I'm not chastising Jack.  He did what he thought he had to do to protect his relationship with Ennis.  I might have done the same thing were I in his shoes.  However, Jack did live with a lot of lies, and the biggest was the same as Ennis's biggest lie -- to himself.  Each man refused to see and act upon what they really were -- homosexual.  Granted, there were lots of reasons to act as they did, but it amounts to the same thing -- a lie to themselves.  What tpe says above hits the nail on the head.  They lived their lie. That's alot of baggage to carry around.

This is true: Jack certainly did lie -- else, conceal the truth -- many times from Ennis. 

But telling lies is a bit different from the notion of "living the lie" that monicita mentions.

Both of them were guilty of living the lie through their marriages.  Nevertheless, Jack seemed to have struggled against it.  Ennis's great fault -- his greatest lie, so to speak -- was thinking that he could convince himself that his life with Alma was the only recourse.

This is what I meant by the heart of darkness: to be able to lie to oneself and to one's heart.


 

[lamusica]

I think everyone lies to himself at times -- probably in an effort to survive or to maintain the status quo in his life.  This type of unwillingness to see the truth about himself was Ennis's lie.  Jack was able to see his true nature; he just didn't know what to do with it.  So, you were right when you said Ennis's lie lies in the heart of darkness.  Had he taken Jack's early suggestion for the two of them to live together, Ennis would have been forced to see the truth about himself.  Perhaps this is the main reason he kept saying "no" to Jack.  He didn't want to look at himself with a magnifying glass.  He might not like what he sees -- what he would have called "flaws" -- his homosexuality.

[tpe]

I think everyone lies to himself at times -- probably in an effort to survive or to maintain the status quo in his life.  This type of unwillingness to see the truth about himself was Ennis's lie.  Jack was able to see his true nature; he just didn't know what to do with it.  So, you were right when you said Ennis's lie lies in the heart of darkness.  Had he taken Jack's early suggestion for the two of them to live together, Ennis would have been forced to see the truth about himself.  Perhaps this is the main reason he kept saying "no" to Jack.  He didn't want to look at himself with a magnifying glass.  He might not like what he sees -- what he would have called "flaws" -- his homosexuality.

True.  Ennis did this because he thought that living the lie would be the best way to protect the truth: in this case, his love for Jack.  The immense effort didn't leave Ennis unscathed.  He suffered enormously because of this.  And that is what many of us relate to, because we ourselves have been guilt so many times of causing so much pain within ourselves because we think that we can live the lie.

 

[CrimsonSky]

That's a very interesting question Monicita, and I'd never thought before about what you say about the scene where Alma confronts Ennis, that even then, when he knew that Alma knew, and it didn't really matter anyway, as they were already divorced, he still couldn't bring himself to be honest with Alma. Of course,even after all that time he couldn't be honest with himself, so it's not surprising he couldn't be honest with Alma (and you could argue that Alma wasn't entirely honest with Ennis about how she knew, since she didn't say she'd witnessed the kiss), but it must have felt to Alma that Ennis was adding insult to injury by still trying to fool her.
 As for the worst lie, I would have to agree that it was Ennis's "I ain't queer". Although arguably it wasn't a lie as such, because Ennis didn't believe (or didn't want to believe) that it was a lie, but it set the ball rolling for all the other lies that came after. If Ennis had been able to accept that maybe he was "queer" , who knows how differently things might have turned out.

[manhattangirl]

Jack lied, and lied many times to Ennis, the truth was Jack was more honest about "the thing" than Ennis.   Jack knew Ennis, the way he was, and how he looked at things, what he felt.  So Jack accepted the lie, kept that lie going,  and stayed with Ennis despite knowing deep within him what was true and what was not, until he couldn't go on denying it to himself or to Ennis.   

But in the end did that "lie"  kill Jack?   

[welshwitch]

I don't think, however, that Jack lied to himself, either about himself or about Ennis. In some ways I don't think Ennis is really lying when he wwsays "I ain't queer"; I don't think he really knows enough about himself to know what he is.This is all so far from his experience. It's also the case that beoth he and Jack lack the ability to use language well, even if they can formulate their ideas, which I'm not so sure about. they know what they feel, but whether they are capable of verbalizing it or making sense of it is another matter. Maybe Jack realizes that Ennis is whatever the word "queer" means to him, but is prepared not to push Ennis to label himself if that will frighten him off.

It seems to me that the real lies are the ones they live with their wives.

[Asali]

I think everyone lies to himself at times -- probably in an effort to survive or to maintain the status quo in his life.  This type of unwillingness to see the truth about himself was Ennis's lie.  Jack was able to see his true nature; he just didn't know what to do with it.  So, you were right when you said Ennis's lie lies in the heart of darkness.  Had he taken Jack's early suggestion for the two of them to live together, Ennis would have been forced to see the truth about himself.  Perhaps this is the main reason he kept saying "no" to Jack.  He didn't want to look at himself with a magnifying glass.  He might not like what he sees -- what he would have called "flaws" -- his homosexuality.

True.  Ennis did this because he thought that living the lie would be the best way to protect the truth: in this case, his love for Jack.  The immense effort didn't leave Ennis unscathed.  He suffered enormously because of this.  And that is what many of us relate to, because we ourselves have been guilt so many times of causing so much pain within ourselves because we think that we can live the lie.

 

My thoughts are those of lamusica and tpe.

[manhattangirl]

Totally understand what you're saying WW.  I was just wondering this:  After the FNIT,  Ennis statement that he wasn't queer would have been something to believe, if that SNIT hadn't happened.   He approached Jack,  his hat in his hand, looking down almost, without words asking Jack what is next, and knowing full well what would happen.   Jack made love to him.  

His statement, "I'm not queer", was everytime he slept with Jack was a moot point.   He was queer, and had to live with it, and couldn't deal with it, he lied to himself about being what he feared most.  

This may sound coldhearted, but both their marriages were collateral damage resulting from a lie they both held on to.  Jack aided in the lie by living his life according to Ennis's lie, Jack declaration after Ennis pronouncement of not being queer,  "me neither", to hold on to this man he wanted.    

Like I tried to explain before,  what ever happened after that scene on the hillside a lie was born.   These men knew well enough what queer meant, they also knew what they felt,  These may not have been educated, or well spoken men, but they weren't brain dead either, Ennis knew enough to fear it, Jack knew enough keep his mouth shut, and go along with Ennis.  This lasted for twenty years.  

IMO  

[aintfoolin]

I don't think, however, that Jack lied to himself, either about himself or about Ennis. In some ways I don't think Ennis is really lying when he wwsays "I ain't queer"; I don't think he really knows enough about himself to know what he is.This is all so far from his experience. It's also the case that beoth he and Jack lack the ability to use language well, even if they can formulate their ideas, which I'm not so sure about. they know what they feel, but whether they are capable of verbalizing it or making sense of it is another matter. Maybe Jack realizes that Ennis is whatever the word "queer" means to him, but is prepared not to push Ennis to label himself if that will frighten him off.

It seems to me that the real lies are the ones they live with their wives.

 I agree with this WW. These feelings and experiences are all so new and foreign to him that he could in no way fathom a  clear definition to all of it. He had an idea of what queer meant  in his mind though ,but it had to be confusing to him.  It is a case of action speaking louder than mere words IMO.   " I aint queer" could mean I don't feel like I'm queer or  maybe Ennis just defines it as a "one shot" experience with another man.
 It's whatever *queer *  means to Ennis.  Again, this is like asking someone to define love. We know it's a feeling but to put it into words is not easy.  What IS "queer"  to Ennis?

The obvious conclusion is to say that he is lying to himself ,  because the truth is ( as MG said) every time he made love with Jack he was contradicting himself. Jack aided it along by saying "me niether" allowing Ennis to rationalize it all in his mind  that  if he aint ,and Jack aint ,then we'll just do what we feel and not have to sweat the big elephant in the room which is what is obviously the real truth of the matter. They were both "queer"  and liked it but It was " nobody's business but ours"  With this reassuring statement from Jack, I feel Ennis felt "safe "to continue exploring these new found feelings in SNIT.

At some point down the road , I think they both accepted the truth (SNIT in my opinion) but fear and lack of discussion about what happened to them kept them from fully realizing Jack's dream of a life together.

Whatever lies they spoke verbally were diminished  by the actions they took. MO.

[tpe]

To speak a lie is to imply the knowledge of the truth.  Did Ennis really know the truth deep in his heart? 

I sometimes think yes.  Nonetheless, one can argue against this, if we recognize that for Ennis, "truth" was on the side of society, and that one must stick to the "truth" at all cost.

To remember Blake's “A truth that's told with bad intent | Beats all the lies you can invent”: I don't think it was Ennis's intention to hurt Jack or himself.  He was misled by his own inexperience and immaturity in love.

[manhattangirl]

To speak a lie is to imply the knowledge of the truth.  Did Ennis really know the truth deep in his heart? 

I sometimes think yes.  Nonetheless, one can argue against this, if we recognize that for Ennis, "truth" was on the side of society, and that one must stick to the "truth" at all cost.

To remember Blake's “A truth that's told with bad intent | Beats all the lies you can invent”: I don't think it was Ennis's intention to hurt Jack or himself.  He was misled by his own inexperience and immaturity in love.

Then if Ennis accepted the "truth" as tpe puts it, then he would have never answered Jack's postcard, he would he put that summer of '63 as childish curiosity, something he'd done and be forgotten about. 

But he didn't.  Ennis wanted Jack back again.  So here he was with his "truth", Jack, and what tpe said, "his own inexperience and immaturity in love".  Led by society which he believed kept him from losing his life ran opposite to what gave him life. 

[monicita]

“A truth that's told with bad intent | Beats all the lies you can invent”

TPE, what a wonderful quote! Some of you have asked whether they know they are lying to themselves (or more precisely, whether Ennis knows it). If we go with tpe here, Ennis (or the society he belongs to) has created a truth, that is so much stronger than any little "queer" truth he could set up against it, that there is no way for him to acknowledge his "queer" truth. So maybe this really isn't about lying so much as it is about which kind of truth you adhere to: Everything else is shaped by that. And Ennis' life is shaped by the only truth he could acknowledge: the life of a conservative family man.

In a way, what he had with Jack might even have saved him, spiritually speaking, from living all his life according to a truth that was a gigantic lie. So the greatest lie might not be what either Jack or Ennis did or said, but what society set up for them as a trap they could not help but fall into? Still, there have always been people who acted differently, who set up their tiny truths against the one big truth, like shining beacons in the dark. I don't think we can take all responsibility from their shoulders, even though they did not have much choice. One can see the fine spiderweb of the great truth/lie of their "straight" family lives everywhere: Everything colludes to make them stick to it. So, if I were to reformulate, I would say: the worst is that they were not taught and did not teach themselves to strike out for themselves, think for themselves and take on the responsibility for their feelings.

monicita

[tpe]

Then if Ennis accepted the "truth" as tpe puts it, then he would have never answered Jack's postcard, he would he put that summer of '63 as childish curiosity, something he'd done and be forgotten about. 

But he didn't.  Ennis wanted Jack back again.  So here he was with his "truth", Jack, and what tpe said, "his own inexperience and immaturity in love".  Led by society which he believed kept him from losing his life ran opposite to what gave him life. 

Yes, he didn't.  But it is common for human beings to be is such a situation: we acknowledge certain truths within ourselves even though we transgress them sometimes.  To name a trivial example, some of us may be guilty of stealing small things (cookies from a cookie jar in the kitchen, for instance ) even though we agree within our hearts that it is wrong to steal.  So then with Ennis: just because he belived in certain "truths" didn't guarantee that he followed them through and through.  It is not the case of being hypocritical.  There is something in human nature that allows for a certain degree of dichotomy, even though we believe in principles.   

Likewise, just because Ennis started seeing Jack again didn't mean that he stopped living the lie. 

He wanted both opposing worlds: that's the root of his inner conflict.

[tpe]

“A truth that's told with bad intent | Beats all the lies you can invent”

TPE, what a wonderful quote! Some of you have asked whether they know they are lying to themselves (or more precisely, whether Ennis knows it). If we go with tpe here, Ennis (or the society he belongs to) has created a truth, that is so much stronger than any little "queer" truth he could set up against it, that there is no way for him to acknowledge his "queer" truth. So maybe this really isn't about lying so much as it is about which kind of truth you adhere to: Everything else is shaped by that. And Ennis' life is shaped by the only truth he could acknowledge: the life of a conservative family man.

In a way, what he had with Jack might even have saved him, spiritually speaking, from living all his life according to a truth that was a gigantic lie. So the greatest lie might not be what either Jack or Ennis did or said, but what society set up for them as a trap they could not help but fall into? Still, there have always been people who acted differently, who set up their tiny truths against the one big truth, like shining beacons in the dark. I don't think we can take all responsibility from their shoulders, even though they did not have much choice. One can see the fine spiderweb of the great truth/lie of their "straight" family lives everywhere: Everything colludes to make them stick to it. So, if I were to reformulate, I would say: the worst is that they were not taught and did not teach themselves to strike out for themselves, think for themselves and take on the responsibility for their feelings.

monicita

I think that true monicita: that the greatest lie may be the society that had so warped both Ennis and Jack -- forcing them to live in an artificially constrained world that they assumed to be a world of fundamental "truths".  Again, this is such a common mistake in many societies -- who are made up of people, after all.  That a norm constitutes a truth: that is at the heart of this lie.  And being human, perhaps Ennis and Jack were both drawn by the power of this argument, not knowing that there is no such truth that denies the very nature of who you are and how do you love.

 

[aintfoolin]

This  is true, but sooner or later the "lie" has to take a back seat to the "truth" of all matters concerning love. As it did eventually in this case the confrontation scene bares this out.
 Every problem in their lives, past, present, and future resulted  by the lie was exposed as just that , a lie. Even Ennis could no longer deny that what he fought against deep inside was not going to just go away no matter how much he lied to himself. As he helplessly cried on his knees in Jack's arms he knew he could no longer fight this thing . The truth was finally exposed causing Ennis to take a good hard tragc look. He looked past Alma, jobs, and any other excuse and saw the bare fact, he loved Jack desperatly. there was always Jack ,period.  He had never allowed himself to go there before, not all the way there at least. This time he was forced to see the "truth" in it's pure form. with his " I just can't stand this anymore Jack" . He had no more energy to fight this love , or deny . this truth/lie he'd lived with for so many years. He held Jack as though his life depended on it ... and it did. Love has a way of doing this, showing what is human wether it's painful or completly blissful. My opinion.