Author Topic: was Ennis a virgin?  (Read 24072 times)

Offline shieldmaid

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was Ennis a virgin?
« on: Apr 15, 2006, 03:49 PM »
Hi--

I'm really sorry if I'm repeating a topic discussed earlier--I did look at the index of topics to check--but I was wondering, after watching the first two tent scenes multiple times in the last few days: are we meant to think Ennis loses his virginity with Jack?  Especially after the whole "I ain't had a chance to sin yet" conversation, and the heartbreaking tenderness of the second tent scene--I'm inclined to think that yes, Jack was his very first partner.  Another big reason for Ennis's undying bond with Jack. . .
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Offline tpe

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #1 on: Apr 15, 2006, 03:56 PM »
I too am inclined to think that Jack was his first partner.  I don't think Ennis and Alma had premarital sex, if we are to believe what Ennis told Jack in the 'Water Walking Jesus' scene.


Offline chameau

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #2 on: Apr 15, 2006, 03:57 PM »
I agree with you, the line "I ain't had a chance to sin yet" suggest it.  Remember he is 19, methodist and engaged to Alma.  This is also the summer of 1963, many people at that time were virgins on the day of their wedding.  Considering this is rural Wyoming where at that time most of the social activities where around the Church, I'm quite sure Ennis was virgin.

The first time I saw BBM, with my best friend, he was wondering how Ennis knew (about anal sex) if it was his first homosexual experience.  My only bet was the boys were raised on ranches and saw animals coupling several times. Annie also has some words in the short story about this for Ennis "...nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed".
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Offline Mars

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #3 on: Apr 15, 2006, 04:01 PM »

Yes,shieldmaid it seems to me clear that Ennis lost his virginity with Jack.
There was a strong emotional bond between the two men that made
possible what's happened afterwards.

Offline keren_b

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #4 on: Apr 15, 2006, 04:12 PM »
Annie also has some words in the short story about this for Ennis "...nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed".

I think that in this sentence Annie wanted to imply that Ennis was a virgin, and the screenwriters had added the "I haven't yet had the opportunity" sentence to make it even more clear.


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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #5 on: Apr 15, 2006, 04:18 PM »
I happen to agree that Ennis was a virgin..until Jack came along.. ;) of course there bond with each other grew as the movie went on..I also too wondered how he knew about anal sex..maybe the animals and seeing them getting it on...or maybe he just figured it was the thing to do..interesting..

Offline CherryCake

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #6 on: Apr 15, 2006, 04:18 PM »
Keren, you and I may not agree on who between Ennis and Jack has the better butt, but on this topic I agree with you.
I agree Ennis was a virgin and Jack, well, Jack was not.
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Offline ethan

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #7 on: Apr 15, 2006, 04:20 PM »
Like previous posts, I also think this is the case. It does signify the bond between Ennis and Jack.

The first time I saw BBM, with my best friend, he was wondering how Ennis knew (about anal sex) if it was his first homosexual experience.  My only bet was the boys were raised on ranches and saw animals coupling several times. Annie also has some words in the short story about this for Ennis "...nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed".

I tend to think that it doesn't matter what kind of sex one is engaged in - be straight or gay. Ennis must have heard of *how* to have sex even before the first experience. No need to see animals courting.  ;D

But then again, that is just my assumption. When I was a kid, I thought just a girl would just get pregnant by a boy touching her hands. So if Ennis didn't know a thing, I am not surprised.

Don't you think that Ennis didn't fantasize at all to have sex with Jack before the first tent?
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Offline keren_b

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #8 on: Apr 15, 2006, 04:25 PM »
Keren, you and I may not agree on who between Ennis and Jack has the better butt...

OT - yeah, this debate will never end, will it?  ;) Well, I respect other people's opinions of course...





(but Heath still has the better butt).
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Offline chameau

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #9 on: Apr 15, 2006, 04:28 PM »
Like previous posts, I also think this is the case. It does signify the bond between Ennis and Jack.

The first time I saw BBM, with my best friend, he was wondering how Ennis knew (about anal sex) if it was his first homosexual experience.  My only bet was the boys were raised on ranches and saw animals coupling several times. Annie also has some words in the short story about this for Ennis "...nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed".

I tend to think that it doesn't matter what kind of sex one is engaged in - be straight or gay. Ennis must have heard of *how* to have sex even before the first experience. No need to see animals courting.  ;D

But then again, that is just my assumption. When I was a kid, I thought just a girl would just get pregnant by a boy touching her hands. So if Ennis didn't know a thing, I am not surprised.

Don't you think that Ennis didn't fantasize at all to have sex with Jack before the first tent?

About sex I'm not sure but he was attracted for sure, those glances the guys were having for each other even from the begining of the movie.
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #10 on: Apr 15, 2006, 05:02 PM »
Don't you think that Ennis didn't fantasize at all to have sex with Jack before the first tent?

Nope.  I truly don't think so.  At least not until it was offered to him.   :D

My question for months now has been: How did he know to use spit?

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Offline chameau

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #11 on: Apr 15, 2006, 05:10 PM »
Don't you think that Ennis didn't fantasize at all to have sex with Jack before the first tent?

Nope.  I truly don't think so.  At least not until it was offered to him.   :D

My question for months now has been: How did he know to use spit?



Sorry for the crude answer, masturbation maybe?
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Offline shieldmaid

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #12 on: Apr 15, 2006, 05:18 PM »
Don't you think that Ennis didn't fantasize at all to have sex with Jack before the first tent?

Nope.  I truly don't think so.  At least not until it was offered to him.   :D

My question for months now has been: How did he know to use spit?



Sorry for the crude answer, masturbation maybe?

Yes, I thought the same thing--after all, they're up on the mountain for months, at a point in their lives when sex is on the mind all the time; surely some self-gratification must have taken place.  Kind of off-topic, but one of my favorite lines from the story that's not in the movie is in the reunion motel scene, when Jack says, "must be all your time a horseback makes it so goddam good."  And Ennis also says, "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H ain't nothin like this."  Clearly a result of their love for each other, their intense physical attraction, but also those early times together . . .
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #13 on: Apr 15, 2006, 06:07 PM »
My question for months now has been: How did he know to use spit?

Sorry for the crude answer, masturbation maybe?

I don't know Chameau.  Back when things worked I never needed anything.  Any other male points of view?

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline CherryCake

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #14 on: Apr 15, 2006, 07:02 PM »
Quote
Quote from Patriot1:
I don't know Chameau.  Back when things worked I never needed anything.  Any other male points of view?
Quote
Now Patriot, this movie isn't about you is it? teehee.  I don't think Ennis was dumb enough not to know that spit would have helped things out!  he knew enough to flip jack over and pull down his jeans! 
« Last Edit: Apr 15, 2006, 07:23 PM by CherryCake »
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #15 on: Apr 15, 2006, 07:15 PM »
Now Chameau, this movie isn't about you is it? teehee.  I don't think Ennis was dumb enough not to know that spit would have helped things out!  he knew enough to flip jack over and pull down his jeans! 

Oh CherryCake you are so precious!!!!

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!  I am just picturing Ennis not knowing where it went!  LOL! LOL! 

All his life he has watched, and probably assisted, cattle.  They didn't use spit.  LOL!  There is a great cartoon going on in my head right now.  LOL!

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline BBBOY

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #16 on: Apr 15, 2006, 10:43 PM »
Like previous posts, I also think this is the case. It does signify the bond between Ennis and Jack.

The first time I saw BBM, with my best friend, he was wondering how Ennis knew (about anal sex) if it was his first homosexual experience.  My only bet was the boys were raised on ranches and saw animals coupling several times. Annie also has some words in the short story about this for Ennis "...nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed".

I tend to think that it doesn't matter what kind of sex one is engaged in - be straight or gay. Ennis must have heard of *how* to have sex even before the first experience. No need to see animals courting.  ;D

But then again, that is just my assumption. When I was a kid, I thought just a girl would just get pregnant by a boy touching her hands. So if Ennis didn't know a thing, I am not surprised.

Don't you think that Ennis didn't fantasize at all to have sex with Jack before the first tent?

Love this post Ethan. When I was in 7th grade, middle school to some, I went on a double date. The other girl and her partner seemed to know what "necking" was all about. As soon as the movie started they went at it like a couple of pros. I'm setting there thinking, "Well Rick, you better do something here." Like the stud I wasn't, I maneuvered my arm around the young lady I was with. Finding no resistance I drew her too me, looked into her lovely faced and leaned in and kissed her. OMG I felt like a barbarian raping a virgin! This irrational guilt swept over me. I had RUINED this young girl's life with my debauchery! I can laugh at it now, but after that first kiss I couldn't move for the rest of the date. The rest of it was like walking through some kind of fog. God bless her, she must have wondered what kind of freak she had come into contact with but never let on. We attended the same church and were in the same class in high school. I have seen her several times at reunions and have always told her she was the first girl I ever kissed. I think she has figured out the rest.

Oops, Sorry, OT
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline Petter Gusten

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #17 on: Apr 16, 2006, 12:59 AM »
, but one of my favorite lines from the story that's not in the movie is in the reunion motel scene, when Jack says, "must be all your time a horseback makes it so goddam good."  And Ennis also says, "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H ain't nothin like this."  Clearly a result of their love for each other, their intense physical attraction, but also those early times together . . .
Ennis is also saying something "I've been thinking of you hundred of times"
another line from that scene is when Ennis is asking Jack if he had done IT with other men and Jack replies 'no', but there is a comment that he had been riding not only horses...

Offline Patriot1

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #18 on: Apr 16, 2006, 01:14 AM »
, but one of my favorite lines from the story that's not in the movie is in the reunion motel scene, when Jack says, "must be all your time a horseback makes it so goddam good."  And Ennis also says, "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H ain't nothin like this."  Clearly a result of their love for each other, their intense physical attraction, but also those early times together . . .
Ennis is also saying something "I've been thinking of you hundred of times"
another line from that scene is when Ennis is asking Jack if he had done IT with other men and Jack replies 'no', but there is a comment that he had been riding not only horses...


PetterG , I think you will find, if you haven't already, that our little Jack does lie to Ennis a bit.  He loves Ennis so much he is willing to say whatever it takes to get Ennis to love him.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline Petter Gusten

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #19 on: Apr 16, 2006, 01:43 AM »
yes - he does

and Ennis is more open about how much he has missed Jack in the 'book' than in the Film, one of the few things which is better in the book

MHO

Offline ellyjay

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #20 on: Apr 16, 2006, 03:01 AM »
[IAbout sex I'm not sure but he was attracted for sure, those glances the guys were having for each other even from the begining of the movie.
Quote

I think that Ennis was a virgin - he didn't have Jack's experience - Jack had already been on the mountain the previous summer - maybe he learnt something then. 

I also think Ennis was sending strong messages to Jack (albeit unconsciously) from very early on.  Look how he asked for soup after only a couple of weeks, how he shot the elk, and the way he looked at Jack when saying that he hadn't yet had the chance to sin - to name a few instances. 

In the short story it says that they were 'each glad to have a companion where none had been expected'.  I think the sex was inevitable from there - its just happened slower than it would have, if Ennis had had Jack's experience.

Offline shieldmaid

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #21 on: Apr 16, 2006, 09:05 AM »
yes - he does

and Ennis is more open about how much he has missed Jack in the 'book' than in the Film, one of the few things which is better in the book

MHO

Yes, great point.  In the story, after describing how he felt sick when Jack left, Ennis says something like, "Took me a year to figure out I never shoulda let you outa my sights."  What a difference that might have made to the movie Jack if Ennis had said that . . . !
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Offline Valandil Eluch

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #22 on: Apr 16, 2006, 10:10 PM »
Ennis was indeed a virgin 19 years most of his live he worked since his parents died so he probably didn't have time for that but Ennis was indeed virgin probably also by his religion beliefs
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline Mahogany

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #23 on: Oct 02, 2014, 05:25 AM »
Yes, Ennis was a virgin.

There are 3 scenes that clarify it. 2 with Jack and 1 with Alma.

Offline bluemountainsky

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Re: was Ennis a virgin?
« Reply #24 on: Oct 02, 2014, 09:50 AM »
Yes, Ennis was a virgin.

There are 3 scenes that clarify it. 2 with Jack and 1 with Alma.

I agree that he was definitely a virgin. Alma was a church-going girl, and obviously wouldn't be having sex before marriage. Ennis also would think of it as a sin, ...as he told Jack "You may be a sinner, but I haven't had the opportunity", Jack of course was talking about being gay, but Ennis misunderstood and thought he was talking about having sex with a woman outside of marriage. Before he met Jack, he had been engaged to Alma for several months, because it was the next step his life. His sister and brother had gotten married, so there was nowhere for him to go, he had to find someone and do the same. It's clear that Alma was the first girl he dated. I think he met Alma at some sort of church or community event. The most he did with her before he married her was probably kiss and hold hands. About Jack and whether he was a virgin or not, it's unknown. Some people think that the year before, Jack had slept with whoever the other young man he was working with up on the mountain was (since we know that Jack had worked for Aguirre before, and so must have had another co-worker). But I highly doubt that he slept with the guy. What are the odds of him meeting two closeted gay men in the same place and same job two years in a row?

 I think Jack was also careful, he wasn't naive. He was definitely an idealist, and wished the world was very different, but he understood how this world is, and he wouldn't go around flirting and making advances towards any man he was attracted to, unless he sensed that the man might was also gay. Jack used his intuition with Ennis when they first met, and then later the subtle clues that Ennis gave him, Jack definitely had a sense and about that kind of thing like a lot of gay men do. I don't like to use the term "gaydar" because I think it's a silly word, but I can't think of of another word besides intuition to know how Jack seemed to just know and sense another man's orientation. Although he hadn't been shown the gruesome scene that Ennis had, Jack still understood that society was very homophobic and that if he flirted with the wrong guy he might get beaten up or even worse. That's why I think Jimbo may have been another closet case, since Jack felt safe enough to approach him and flirt with him, and Jimbo didn't react violently to the advance, he just walked away and laughed at Jack, went directly to his buddies because he seemed afraid what they would think about him. That said, perhaps Jack had slept with another man before Ennis, but it was just highly unlikely that it was the prior year's co-worker. Jack had been in rodeos and therefore traveled around the region a bit, he might have met another man that way. He might have even slept with a woman before. Jack just seemed more experienced, although that could just be due to the fact that he had a more outgoing personality.
« Last Edit: Oct 02, 2014, 10:17 AM by bluemountainsky »
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