Topic: Ennis & Jack-change and redemption

[tpe]

In the words of "The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy": Impossible? No. Just very, very improbable.  

proulxfan, I echo FlwrChild here: you argued this very well.

[Tony]

     Thanks, everybody!!!  Baby Tammy, I KNEW you were out there,  somewhere, somewhere..(oops, that's the Moody Blues song, again-sorry).
Proulxfan thought it through and may have given the definitive answer--it was good.  I followed the thread mentioned by FlowerChild and there
ran into TPE saying "But Ennis must have been a tough nut to crack." suggesting another love was unlikely and Jackster came through, if I
read it right, just as strong if not stronger.
     But everyone takes it as a given, or seems to, that Ennis was repressed gay and THEN suggest---only Jack could have gotten through.
Have been wrestling with this all along--the concept of Ennis as repressed gay, and have always felt it was not absolutely established.  Am not
alone in this because some diddly poll on one site showed about 25% saying he was straight, not bi or gay.  Many cultures allow for deep
love between straight men with no sex involved, but that begs the question--what if THAT type of love then goes into sex because one
of the two (Jack, in this case), is sensual, maybe bi, and forces the issue.  What happens then?  Aarrgh!
    Can't settle that here but, in the film, an overlooked scene, ambiguous, dammit, could provide evidence on either side.  Remember when
they meet outside the trailer, for the first time?  Jack does seem to be breaking the code by being sensual, ever so slightly, in his first look
at Ennis.  And Ennis almost blushing, shifts his feet and looks this way and that way, avoiding eye contact.  To which Jack responds with
a hard look of resentment and then that slinky pose against his truck (by the way,--tried that pose, myself, on the railing at a fast food
place and got some interest from--women.  It IS provocative and daring). But, dammit, Heath and Jake played it so it could have been
gaydar--rejected, or...just Ennis noticing the code of the west being broken.  It's an under-appreciated scene and supports both sides.
    Dunno-am still saying there's room for Ennis,at least, to have been straight but never ratified by anyone for himself, gender aside.
But I can't picture him EVER having sex with any other male but Jack, even after having been de-sensitized to same-sex activity, so I very
much think the trump card was love and there only possible, again, with Jack Twist.  Even so, still want to hear anything to the contrary,
as that is the way to learn.  And, in this case, to wander back to the body language of their first encounter, which I had forgotten.
Thanks, FlowerChild, and, of course, all of you.  Hmmm.  Haven't tried that slink for a year----Nah, probably lost the groove.  Tony.

[tpe]

OT: hello Tony.

You may find this thread interesting:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=832.msg7366#msg7366

and

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=5981.msg214405#msg214405

[Tony]

     Thanks for the threads, TPE, and I don't think anything is off-topic that comes back to the theme, eventually.  It is important, for gays,
that BBM be a breakthrough movie about gay love, repressed sexuality, finding yourself, and so on, so there is that tilt, easily supported, that
Ennis was repressed gay, end of story.  But enough people consider it possible he was straight to advance the love story into another category-
love conquers all, even sexual orientation, that this theory shouldn't  cause  hurt to gays as BBM, in that advanced category would always still
bring understanding and acceptance.
     Anybody remember the breakthrough t.v. show for blacks?  "Julia".  Caused a lot of quacking. Broke through the barriers.  And has vanished.
Part of what could prevent that fate for BBM would be never squashing whatever possibilities are there that the film spoke to HUMAN
liberation and that is undermined by unanimously tagging Ennis as repressed gay.  Which, luckily, isn't going to happen.  I think if gays love
this movie they should set it free, from narrower definitions.  It will always be there as a force for toleration of same-gender love but could
also go on, as it should, haunting later generations of viewers.  Heath Ledger said he hoped the movie raised more questions than it
answered.  It has--and am glad am not alone in one of those questions-Ennis' sexuality, not being so easily settled as many would like.
   Of course, my own prejudice is visible on this, too, and admit it.  The issue of Ratification and redemption are important to me.  By
ratification I mean accepting a person, and in several dimensions.  We are first human, then male or female, and then sexually oriented.
Alma ratified Ennis and loved him as her husband, but never broke out of that one dimension.  Jack ratified him as a human, a male, and as
a lover-partner---all three dimensions.  Maybe if we ratified each other as humans first we would not be so abusive to each other as
male vs. female, straight vs. gay, and so on.  In the Old Testament, Jacob demanded acknowledgment from a stranger or he would fight.
The text is mysterious as the stranger is then bumped up to an angel, and then to God. Tiring of wrestling with Jacob, the stranger, angel...
then God, says- from here you will be called Isra-el, he who has wrestled with God.  Ratification, acknowledgment, then came to redemption.
    I may get the annual forum award for being the most pedantic and obtuse on any site, but am back to the theme----the love ratified
Ennis and redeemed him.  If I get the most votes, do I get a little statue?  Wouldn't be insulted--I know I get carried away on this stuff
and can get boring.  Thanks again for the threads. Tony.

[babytammy7]

     Thanks for the threads, TPE, and I don't think anything is off-topic that comes back to the theme, eventually.  It is important, for gays,
that BBM be a breakthrough movie about gay love, repressed sexuality, finding yourself, and so on, so there is that tilt, easily supported, that
Ennis was repressed gay, end of story.  But enough people consider it possible he was straight to advance the love story into another category-
love conquers all, even sexual orientation, that this theory shouldn't  cause  hurt to gays as BBM, in that advanced category would always still
bring understanding and acceptance.
     Anybody remember the breakthrough t.v. show for blacks?  "Julia".  Caused a lot of quacking. Broke through the barriers.  And has vanished.
Part of what could prevent that fate for BBM would be never squashing whatever possibilities are there that the film spoke to HUMAN
liberation and that is undermined by unanimously tagging Ennis as repressed gay.  Which, luckily, isn't going to happen.  I think if gays love
this movie they should set it free, from narrower definitions.  It will always be there as a force for toleration of same-gender love but could
also go on, as it should, haunting later generations of viewers.  Heath Ledger said he hoped the movie raised more questions than it
answered.  It has--and am glad am not alone in one of those questions-Ennis' sexuality, not being so easily settled as many would like.
   Of course, my own prejudice is visible on this, too, and admit it.  The issue of Ratification and redemption are important to me.  By
ratification I mean accepting a person, and in several dimensions.  We are first human, then male or female, and then sexually oriented.
Alma ratified Ennis and loved him as her husband, but never broke out of that one dimension.  Jack ratified him as a human, a male, and as
a lover-partner---all three dimensions.  Maybe if we ratified each other as humans first we would not be so abusive to each other as
male vs. female, straight vs. gay, and so on.  In the Old Testament, Jacob demanded acknowledgment from a stranger or he would fight.
The text is mysterious as the stranger is then bumped up to an angel, and then to God. Tiring of wrestling with Jacob, the stranger, angel...
then God, says- from here you will be called Isra-el, he who has wrestled with God.  Ratification, acknowledgment, then came to redemption.
    I may get the annual forum award for being the most pedantic and obtuse on any site, but am back to the theme----the love ratified
Ennis and redeemed him.  If I get the most votes, do I get a little statue?  Wouldn't be insulted--I know I get carried away on this stuff
and can get boring.  Thanks again for the threads. Tony.

I agree with you Tony!!! Very nice post!! Thank you so much for that 

[tpe]

 I may get the annual forum award for being the most pedantic and obtuse on any site, but am back to the theme----the love ratified Ennis and redeemed him. 

Not at all.  It is, after all, the story of Ennis's loss and (by way of that loss) his redemption.  It may not feel this way to many viewers of the film, but I think the movie does bring to the fore the idea of redemption in a way that the short story couldn't.  The latter was certainly much more bleak about Ennis's future prospects.  This is I think where the movie differed fundamentally from the short story. 

[myprivatejack]

I think Ennis,in a religious point of view and as we say here:-"In his sin he had the penitence"...IMO.

[Tony]

     Thanks, BabyTammy-you highlighted exactly where I wanted  to go-we are human first.  And tpe ,that was something I had missed,
having just recently read the SS, and you may have nailed down in only a few words, the difference between the endings.  No-you did
find it-no maybes.
    Anyway, am going out on a limb and wondering if there are any themes in another work that influenced the screenwriters. knowingly
or unknowingly, and that would be (and this is a leap)--"Brideshead Revisited".  The PBS series took two groups by storm- middle-class
Americans, agog at the class structure and the palaces, etc, in Great Britain, but also knocked gays a little loopy as a gay character
was portrayed sympathetically.  In fact, this set off the teddy bear fad of the '80's for gays.
    Here again, a central character was sexually dubious--the hero and, did he have sex with the gay guy, was he bi, or what?
Yet, here again, in the book, the theme was----redemption.  Thankfully, on two levels.  First level , the agnostic hero stumbles across
this English Catholic branch of the nobility and is amused and troubled by their stubborn faith, yet in the lyrical ending, after all the
sex scandals, and the destruction of war, he finds a redeeming faith.  Not relevant here.
    Here, the lonely hero, was ALSO redeemed by the interaction with that family and learning to love them (his own father did not love
him).  The theme of interaction and love being redeeming (which is no threat to denominational formulas, or should not be).
    Gosh, it is annoying that a piece of art that we love could have been influenced, if only vaguely, by a previous work.  But there are
parallels, even in the forlorn endings.  A tough guy, shattered after finding and losing love, but still altered by that love enough to survive.
    Anyway, even if the one did not influence the other, kind of curious that the theme and ending would be the same.  Maybe we needed
BBM to shake us out of drifting into cynicism and  finding no meaning or goodness in our own lives or those of others.
   tpe, the screenwriters DID change Annie's Ennis, troubled by dreams and perhaps headed towards madness, into OUR Ennis, who still
has a chance.....maybe.  I still want the annual forum award for taking too long to get an idea across.  I'll make the doggone statue myself--
Tony.

[Tony]

   Shouldn't do 2 posts in a row, but came across something in another  forum that may be of interest.  Heath Ledger was doing an interview,
on 2/02/06 with somebody named Enrique Allero and it seemed to be the Observer, whatever that is.  So the subject came up that Jake
Gyllenhaal had said the two characters were not gay.  Heath goes--it's complex, but he felt it was two souls colliding and their love
transcended sexual orientation, and he thought that was what Jake meant.
    So, we have the SS, which tilts heavily towards repressed gay, we have the screenplay, which develops other possibilities, and then
we have the actors interpretations of how they would develop the characters.  The final BBM, then, was a combination of all three, plus,
of course, what we ourselves bring to the viewing.  That's enough for me.  All I ever wanted was no one having the final say, and, boy,
do we got that!  That leaves us with a tension that will make the film more enduring.
   Interesting that Heath would use words seen here, like "transcending".  I believe tpe went there, too.  At any rate, we may have exhausted
the topic as we do all seem to see some form of redemption for Ennis in that love that left him quiet and limping through his later years,
but somehow made whole, by having something real to cling to, and to believe.  Tony.

[tpe]

   Shouldn't do 2 posts in a row, but came across something in another  forum that may be of interest.  Heath Ledger was doing an interview,
on 2/02/06 with somebody named Enrique Allero and it seemed to be the Observer, whatever that is.  So the subject came up that Jake
Gyllenhaal had said the two characters were not gay.  Heath goes--it's complex, but he felt it was two souls colliding and their love
transcended sexual orientation, and he thought that was what Jake meant.
    So, we have the SS, which tilts heavily towards repressed gay, we have the screenplay, which develops other possibilities, and then
we have the actors interpretations of how they would develop the characters.  The final BBM, then, was a combination of all three, plus,
of course, what we ourselves bring to the viewing.  That's enough for me.  All I ever wanted was no one having the final say, and, boy,
do we got that!  That leaves us with a tension that will make the film more enduring.
   Interesting that Heath would use words seen here, like "transcending".  I believe tpe went there, too.  At any rate, we may have exhausted
the topic as we do all seem to see some form of redemption for Ennis in that love that left him quiet and limping through his later years,
but somehow made whole, by having something real to cling to, and to believe.  Tony.

Hello Tony.  Thanks, yes, I am also familiar with this article, and the whole controversy surrounding Jake's comment.  Thank you fro bringing it back here into focus!

I don't think we have really exhausted this topic.  One could also link this to more mythical connotations.  Very little has been said, IMO, about the redemptive qualities in the story -- of how the tragedy purges Ennis and us of doubt, and how it lifts us up even is sorrow.

I think there is more to this than meets the eye.

[tpe]

     We aren't supposed to get personal on these sites and yet have already done that because of something tpe said that got me to break
that social rule.  Dammit, am going to do it again, even though it invades my privacy on sexual matters, but have to go there to bring up
yet again, loneliness, love, and redemption, for I did once meet someone as lonely as Ennis and was, myself somehow redeemed.  Please
forgive the long post and also that I told the same story in another forum.
    Years ago, ran with a wild crowd from our local taverns near the Norfolk port.  We were, I guess, the "in" crowd, long-haired but tolerant
rednecks and really brazen and good-looking women.  No wonder, then, that the merchant seamen would invite us on their ships for free
beer and all-night partys.  One night, we were on a British ship, and they played "The Stripper" and the gals lured me up onto the bar to do
a partial strip.  Anyway, one of the Brits came up to me furtively and offered himself for my, uh, relief, but said to wait and then followthe
directions to his cabin.  I was a sexual radical and was up for it.
   So, waited, then stumbled to his cabin, drunk as a skunk.  And there he was, groggy, stripped down to his shorts ,face down--blond hair,
perfect body and, as I climbed on, he said--it was OK, he knew we were on the ship, and he was so lonely, I could do whatever I wanted
if only I would stay and talk to him as no one on the ship ever talked to him.  I WAS IN THE WRONG CABIN!!!!!!!
   I asked him if he had any experience with that and he said no, so when I said I'd just be company he was like a sweet child, so happy to
have a friend and he came alive and fixed us both coffee.  I asked why no one talked to him and he said something about being "country"
Years later I was to find out about the absurd prejudice the Brits have against Saxons, who are considered the equivalent of hillbillies.
   He was a farm lad sent to sea to send money home to his family.  He told of a girl he hoped to marry, if she would have him, and of
his family and village which he sorely missed.  And he showed me his prized possession, a battered stereo and told of his favorite group,
the Moody Blues.  Was always a jerk when younger and drinking but somehow I knew I had stumbled across unusual physical beauty and
spiritual innocence in that cabin and was always glad he did not have to trade his innocence to ease that terrible loneliness.  I was his friend,
for several hours.
    I left him looking through his porthole at the dawn breaking over the harbor, lost in his dream world of the village back home and listening
to the Moody Blues (who then became my favorite group).  Told my girlfriend what had happened---she knocked me down and my arm was
in a sling for weeks.
   Have been haunted by this all my life, for I never saw a human so lonely as that farm lad sent to sea.  I loved him.  And, in a way,  he
redeemed me, insofar as being less of a jerk and more aware of the hurts in others.
   Off topic?  Hell, no. BBM  has much there of love, loneliness and redemption in being something to each other.  Foolish for going personal?
Maybe.  You would have loved him, too, I think, as you have broken through to loving Ennis and Jack.  If I am getting over-the-top, nothing
new there---I still take risks in hoping people will be better to each other and I have loved BBM for taking risks.
    The worst you can do is send me to the Brokie Inquisition (Dominican monks in stylish robes with fluffy whips) to break me of my posting
habits.  Loneliness is a terrible thing.  That poor farm boy was Ennis, in so many ways.   Tony.

Very beautiful Tony.  Have you ever thought that perhaps you were also a kind of redemption to him?  Redemption can work both ways.

[FlwrChild]

Very beautiful Tony.  Have you ever thought that perhaps you were also a kind of redemption to him?  Redemption can work both ways.

tpe is right, Tony. And sometimes we're right where we're supposed to be, in order for that to happen.

Whoever he is, wherever he is, he holds a place in my heart now, as do you. And I hope for the very best for both of you.

[lancecowboy]

I caught up with some of the discussion in the other threads, about the redemptive nature of Jack's relationship with Ennis, and their "real" sexuality.

I don't know if this is appropriate for a newbie to start a new thread, and if I am being too presumptions, I trust this will be deleted.

Does anyone else think that Ennis and Jack were made for each other, in the sense they they complete each other? To use the cliche that is now so popular.

Ennis was alone, in fact, very lonely as a child, as told in his fireside chat with Jack, and later Elma's bedroom talk to convince Ennis to move to Riverton. Jack was rebellious and a bit of a hell-raiser all his life, until he became a father. Ennis was the paragon of the self-reliant dependable skillful cowboy, knowledgeable in and out of the saddle. Jack was the showy rodeo cowboy fast talking with lots of ideas and a sense of fun. The two were the Ying and Yang, the black hat/white hat complements that completes each other.

Their summer together in Brokeback Mountain was destiny's way of bringing two souls together. Their discovering each other and falling in love was the highest expression of the human experience. Their sexuality was a result of Jack's seduction, perhaps sensing Ennis' need for love. Their SNIT showed how hungry Ennis was for affection and Jack willingness, eagerness to fulfill that need.

If sex never entered into their relationship, the two would have ended the summer as best friends, and perhaps even working together in Jack's parents' ranch. However, the summer ended early when they were caught horsing around. Their relationship was never given the chance to blossom and end properly. That was the beginning of the dark cloud that turned into a tragic storm.

Should they have been lovers instead of best friends? Are soul-mates always sexual partners?

Why should sex be so important in a relationship? Don't get me wrong. I think sex is wonderful, but I am asking if sex is appropriate for Ennis and Jack. What if they never had their FNIT and SNIT? Would they have been best friends for life, godfathers to each others' children, and spending their vacations together, really fishing and hunting?

Since Ennis was already engaged to Elma, and Jack knew this, was it appropriate for Ennis to break off their engagement after Brokeback? The tragedy became amplified when a third then fourth person got entangled in the confused web of emotions that Ennis tried to untangle. If there was NOT social oppression, he and Jack would surely have lived together, growing old together, after the sex.

Was the alcohol the reason for their inevitable sex scene?

I am haunted by the scene when Ennis was starring into a table of empty beer bottles, before Cassie asked him to dance. He adopted the drinking habits of Jack, but continued with his own brooding character, like when he sat on the grassy slope, watching Jack pack, at the early end to the summer. I am sure he was thinking of a warm night of hot sex with Jack during the cold blizzard the night before on the mountain. That was cut short, and no way of being fulfilled. No wonder he got into a fight with Jack when he was lassooed. The rope was a masterful stroke as a metaphor of the unbreakable bond between the two, after their summer together, and especially after the sex.

I can understand why so many others want to amplify the sex scenes, but I think the sexual relationship complicated their bond of friendship.

I think both Ennis and Jack are like many men: they are, to differing degree, bisexual in nature, but found in each other the soul-mate that is so rare and precious. The isolation of Brokeback Mountain allowed their friendship to gain a sexual dimension that would never be possible otherwise. This was both the blessing and the curse because as Jack said in their last meeting, "everything was built on Brokeback" and they could not build a life together, as real soul-mates should have been doing, growing old together.

In today's tolerant society, their friendship can be intensified with the sexual dimension, and with honesty and integrity, they can declare their love for each other, and grow old together.

Brokeback Mountain is our society's redemption for all the oppression and hatred in the past.

Just a bit of my thoughts from reading some of the other discussions in the forum.

Thanks, by the way, to all the administrators and moderators and everyone who contributes to this forum!

[jackster]

Lancecowboy

You laid out a very beautiful piece here cowboy, tho’ it covers a lot of territory and subjects that are covered in many other threads. But I don’t recall seeing the question that I think you’re asking here – should they have had sex? Would things have worked out better if that particular bond had not been made, if that bridge had not been crossed?

Maybe, but I’d have to go to the SS here. I think the emotional connection made via the sex they shared was something that they didn’t get in their “everyday” lives. When Ennis says in the SS:

“I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin' it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin' like this.”

I believe he’s experienced somethin’ here that he hasn’t been used to with Alma. The sex and the sexual encounter(s) between them take them (both of them) to a place they are unable to go otherwise. It isn’t the singular FNIT explosive engagement but the repeated, passionate SNIT type engagements that bring them back together and keep bringing them back together. IMO they need this, they crave this passion with another human (the touching, kissing, penetration, release, everything). They don’t (can't) get this anywhere else and this link is what ties Jack and Ennis together for life. Just bein’ ''friends" I don’t think would have been enough for either of these passionate boys/men to maintain this relationship, just MHO.

[Tony]

     Lancecowboy-thanks for bringing up the subject of whether sex is essential to a love.  Was headed there, in my own thread, when
FlowerChild said something about being where you are supposed to be and I felt she was too close to the truth, and so, broke off.
     She had prompted another memory from my past which stung, but is relevant to your theme in some ways.  I hope this isn't another
case of---wheee! , Tony's off his medication---AGAIN!!!!!
     Again, a story of years ago.  Some sailor friends had asked would I let one of their friends sleep on my couch-he had a sleep disorder,
was being kicked out of the Navy, and it would only be a few weeks.  Since I was out half the night, anyway, at parties-said it was OK.
     Sleep disorder? The guy was in hell itself.  Had been on the riverboats in Vietnam where death was always moments away, around the
corner of a lazy river.  Delayed Stress Syndrome hadn't been figured out yet so he had zero sympathy from the Navy as he fought against
going to sleep, for fear of nightmares and stayed awake for up to 3 days before collapsing into sleep, only to wake everybody up with
blood-curdling screams.
     So my friends dumped him on me.  As a closet heterosexual, with an appreciation of males, noticed he was unusually good-looking.
Try Dr. McDreamy, a little more naturally muscular and a virile, handsome face.  Yet broken.  Never saw much of him the first week as was
never there, but apparently---he finally got---blessed sleep, at night, before leaving to muster on the base.  But he moved to my bed
(which I wasn't using) and the second time, coming home drunk, I climbed over him to also sleep in my own bed.
     He woke,groggy, and, in a twin bed, we were---too close.  Hmmm. I may have contibuted to that.  But he did not move away but said
he knew about me and--it was OK, if that was the cost of being there, the only place of rest he could find.  Ve-e-e-ry tempting as he
was the type, had he not been in mental agony, that would have caught the eye of any person, male or female.
     When I said it was OK, no need, he broke down so bad, weeping, and choked out the words-thank-you--and, trusting me, clung to me
as if he were sinking and I was all there was to hold on to.  No sex.  Just---a need to have someone understand the hell of war still with
him, and the need to believe someone gave a damn.  He fell into a deep sleep, no screams, but that arm over my chest kept me pinned
down, all night.
     Lancecowboy, there was love there that night, without sex.  You are right on target.  We were best buddies and anything sexual
would have been, in this one case, less, not more.  I do not know how relevent this is to your wondering if Ennis and Jack could have
been just best buddies.  I don't think so, because in that case, ratification, crossing the line, was needed.  They had, I think, to break
rules to prove something was really there, which they both needed, a rare love out of nowhere.  The opposite was true with the tormented
war vet- no sex meant he was valued and accepted as he was-a man in very deep trouble, abandoned by the world.
    It was this memory that FlowerChild triggered when she said sometimes we are meant to be at a certain place at a certain time.
Ok--won't go off my medication again.  It's just---you guys go places and say things that cause me to go all goofy.
    Minus sexuality is your proposed formula for exploration.  It's a worthy topic.  Let's see what the other Brokies think. Myself, I remember
where no sex brought beauty and redemption, but on BBM, I think the absence of sex would have left a shallowness and superficiality
that could not have redeemed.  Am back on my medication. Haven't gnawed on the rug for an hour.  No more long posts.  Tony.

[lancecowboy]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

You both elaborated beautifully on my confused attempt to start the thread.

Thank you, Tony, especially, for sharing your personal memories. I, too, have friends/buddies who were like Ennis+Jack-sexuality and the bond was indescribable. Your words always capture what I would have said. And yes, I agree with you both that sex was a part of their relationship that binded them stronger, and made their love more passionate. Yet, whenever they get together, it wasn't just for the sex. They spent the day sharing the moment, riding the mountain that they love, talking by the fire - like their first time when Ennis "spoke more words than in a year". I think, at that point, as someone else pointed out, Jack already had feelings for Ennis (from his heavy breathing and furtive glances), but Ennis was just pure and simple happy, probably for the first time in his life - smiling for the first time in the movie.

I love the scene when Ennis was waiting for Jack to show up for the first time, and he keeps flicking the lighter open and close, remembering that first time he and Jack had a drink together in the bar, and he borrowed Jack's lighter, after revealing a bit of himself.

I guess I wanted to ask the question that no one else seem to be asking, perhaps everyone else knows the answer already: do straight men have this kind of bond, or straight women, or straight couples? If this kind of bond is unique to soul-mates, who inevitably become sexual partners, then is it a wonder that Ennis never tried another relationship, not even the amazing Cassie, or that Jack was never satisfied, not even with Mexico or Randall.

It may be better to have loved and lost, then never to have loved at all.

But what if the price is to never love again?

I guess my question was, if Ennis and Jack had stayed best friends without sex, and their relationship was not as intense or passionate as it had been, would their lives be better?

Perhaps what Jack said to Ennis, "You and Elma, you called that a life?" is the answer to their sexuality, their destiny. Either reach for the height of passion, or settle for platonic mediocrity.

Sorry...if my rambling doesn't make much sense. I guess I am still confused about the movie, and will just have to get the short story, and the script. I hear the new book has both.

Thanks again everyone, for this opportunity to put my thoughts on paper, hmm, screen.

3):-x