Topic: Jack Twist ending - spoiler

[tpe]

Jack_ME, I will echo ethan and thank you for your detailed analysis regarding Jack's death.

THe movie, short story, and screenplay are separate works of art.  The fact that all three make us think about the subtle differences and variations they present is more a blessing than a curse, IMO!

[Jack_ME]

Jack_ME, I will echo ethan and thank you for your detailed analysis regarding Jack's death.

The movie, short story, and screenplay are separate works of art.  The fact that all three make us think about the subtle differences and variations they present is more a blessing than a curse, IMO!

tpe, and Ethan,
Thanks for your comments. They are much appreciated by me.

And tpe, YOU'VE GOT IT EXACTLY RIGHT!

That's why I hold so strongly to keeping each separate in analyzing and interpreting. They are all wonderful works of art and they each stand on their own. They are entitled and deserving of independent analysis, because they do each stand on their own.


Jack in Maine

[hidesert]

To quote from the McMurtry-Ossana interview in the Advocate:

Ennis is convinced that Jack was murdered with a tire iron. I don’t necessarily believe it.

McMurtry: It’s what Ennis is feeling at the moment. But Lureen’s explanation is just as good. A lot of tires blow up and kill people.

Do people hope Jack wasn’t murdered? What do they believe?

Ossana: We’ve been asked that [in every interview]. You can’t believe the things we’ve heard—for example, did Lureen’s father have him killed? A reporter walked up to me and said, “What really happened? I need to know.” I said, “What do you think?” He told me, and I said, “Well, if that works for you, then good.”

Oh, that’s the most hateful writer answer.

Ossana: But even Annie will tell you it’s ambiguous to her. When you see that [flash] on the screen, we tell people that [we don’t know] what actually happened to Jack. But it’s what Ennis thinks, and he’s been set up to think that by his entire past. This was his biggest fear, that something would happen. And the tragedy is multilayered. If Jack was killed that way, the guilt that Ennis must feel—maybe if he’d taken him up on it, this wouldn’t have happened. But also the fact that he’s not sure. What is more tragic than not knowing how your loved one has died?

[romeshvr]

Thanks Jack_ME.  That was an awesome post.  I have to read it again to understand it fully

[Jack_ME]

hidesert posted:
To quote from the McMurtry-Ossana interview in the Advocate (SNIP)

Thanks for posting the snippets from that interview. All views are Interesting.

These two (McMurty and Ossana) are the screenplay writers and so naturally have a take on their screenplay. And they probably also have a take on Proulx's original short story, from which they took their ideas and some dialog. And here they are most likely  responding to questions about the finished released movie now playing everywhere. They are entitled to express their opinions, and it's interesting to hear those opinions.

In another interview, this one I believe with the Director of the film, Ang Lee, he revealed that in filming Jack's murder at the hands of the three killers, there was much more that was actually filmed and initially he had thought to intercut some of that imagery into the sombre scene when Ennis visits Jack's parents at Lightening Flats, but ultimately decided for the mood and flow of that scene, he would not use it. I wonder, was that in McMurty's and Ossana's screenplay? And if so, what version of their screenplay? First draft? Working script? Final film?

There is no doubt that the film was crafted to be full of ambiguity in the manner of Jack's death, and screenplay authors, director, and editor and all involved  certainly have succeeded in creating that ambiguity.....witness this very discussion and the hundreds of other words posted on the many other boards. There is a tension there, and a feeling of a loose end.

To quote from your quote of McMurty and Ossana:
we tell people that [we don’t know] what actually happened to Jack. But it’s what Ennis thinks, and he’s been set up to think that by his entire past. This was his biggest fear, that something would happen. And the tragedy is multilayered. If Jack was killed that way, the guilt that Ennis must feel—maybe if he’d taken him up on it, this wouldn't have happened. But also the fact that he’s not sure. What is more tragic than not knowing how your loved one has died?

They and Ang Lee have succeeded in convincing us that ENNIS IS NOT SURE how Jack died. However nothing is said there about Lureen's knowledge. And nothing is said there about the audience's knowledge either. The point of ambiguity is certainly to convey yet more pain and confusion for Ennis to live with. With the added burden of guilt over whether his choices caused, or could have prevented, Jack's death. Regardless of what choices Ennis did make, or could have made, he could in no way have prevented an accidental death due to a tire explosion. It's necessary to have ambiguity so that WE can learn more about Ennis and feel more of his pain. Such is part of the mastery of this film, we are drawn into Ennis's tortured soul. Were the filmmakers to present Jack's death in actual imagery of a tire exploding and killing him with or without the aftermath of police, ambulances, funeral, and Lureen's family conversations........we would view Ennis differently as he learns of Jack's death and as he goes to Jack's parents and as he finds the shirts and as he lives the rest of his life, what little we see, and what is then implied to us from that little.

No one has ever said, myself included, that there is no ambiguity over the death, but at the same time, we can watch, analyze, and interpret what we see in the film, and add that to what we know of Lureen's character and life, and what we know of Ennis's character and life, and we can draw our own conclusions. I stand by mine as outlined in my earlier posts. My post is my opinion, which I assume everyone realizes is a given for all other posts by all  other posters. We analyze, we interpret, we share, we inquire, we state our opinions.

And I enjoy reading other board member's thoughts and interpretations of what experience they had on this topic of how Jack died. It's obviously NOT a question which will be or can be answered with a once and for all definitive answer regardless of how many interviews by those involved in any aspect of the film are reposted here. That's the reason we have discussion!

It'scertainly quite  interesting to read what the author of the short story says, what the screenplay writers say, what the director says, what the actor and actress in the scene say, what professional reviewers say, what advertisers say.

All interesting.

But what is most interesting here, is what other BBM Movie lovers say to each other, how each here was affected and what each here experienced and how each here interpreted that scene, Jack's death, and all the rest of the movie too!.

This is the point of this thread and the point of most other threads currently on messageboards. Folks have had an experience and folks want to share and talk about that experience. No one is here to consult the definitive, discussion-ended, dictionary interpretation. There can never be that anyway, because  what was made (in the film) was made to be ambiguous and so always will be ambiguous.

I have my opinion and interpretation, which for me, after much thought and analysis, and repeated viewings of the film is now quite clear. The keywords in that sentence? Opinion and interpretation and is now!.

Who knows what more subtlety I will notice the next time I experience the film? And if I notice or read more from the film, I may have to adjust some of my previous interpretation. The film is a masterpiece, it draws us in, and it forces us to think and to question and to interpret. Though there are certainly other films that do this, how many films being made today can stand up to repeated viewings? How many films are flat cartoonish stories. See them once and then never need, let alone want, to sit through them again...until maybe 25 or 30 years have passed. How many viewings of this film does it take before one knows it all and is bored? Quite a few it seems as witness the many repeated times, many people, have seen the film so far.

I welcome and enjoy reading everyone's opinion, and I encourage everyone to share his/her opinion, on the subject of this thread and on the many other threads here on this wonderful BBM Community Board

Jack in Maine

[sweet_man_1]

jack_me: i loved reading your post and analysis... i do agree wholeheartedly with practically everything you say, including your understanding of jack's wife's emotion (or emotionless as it were) phone call with enis

here is a post i made on another thread just minutes bfore reading yours here:

ok here's my take on jacks death after reading all the posts here and watching the movie...

i'm still not sure.!!.. LOL

but i'm leaning towards jack being killed...

here's a few thoughts

1. one thing that struck me as incredibly odd (that no one here has mentioned) was that jacks wife acted as though she did not know enis at all... how is this possible when they spend weeks together every year... i'm sure jack told her where he was going and with who (but not about sex of course)... so it seemed obvious to me that she was pretending to not know who enis was... hell, jack even told his parents about enis, i'm sure he at least told his wife he was going "fishing with a buddy"

2. the fact that jacks wife was so distant to enis, after mostly likely knowing he was a good friend of her husbands leads me to believe even more that she knew he was killed... if she only thought he was a good friend she wouldn't have been so distant... so, she either found out coincidentally that her husband was gay and didn't know how to address it with enis OR (and this is where i'm leaning) she knew he was killed BECAUSE he was gay and it was too embarassing for the truth to be told to the community... she was clearly either in shock and/or working to save herself the pain of having been married to a gay man (and in this respect, i do understand her attitude, even though she wasn't the warmest person... she wasn't the only one who lied here!!)

3. the flashbacks to jack being beaten were either exactly what happened OR what enis was worried about what happened... but they certainly were NOT what enis KNEW happened, as he clearly did not know what happened

4. jacks mom knew he was gay and that enis was his lover.. i also think jacks dad knew but had a harder time with it

5. i find it highly unlikely that the author would purposely put in that jack was killed accidentally... its just too much of a coincidence... the whole purpose of the movie was to expose the heartbreak and hopelessness of gay oppression... of course she put in the possibility that jack was murdered because it is highly likely it could happen

[Jack_ME]

sweet_man_1
jack_me: i loved reading your post and analysis... i do agree wholeheartedly with practically everything you say, including your understanding of jack's wife's emotion (or emotionless as it were) phone call with Ennis

Hi sweet_man_1, thanks for your comments, I appreciate them.

It's not quite clear to me if you simply copied your other post, or added more to it here, or just mentioned that you had made another post, so forgive me if my comments are redundant.
And also I will remind you of my own philosophy that we can't discuss theoreticals like this EXCEPT by focusing only on the one media form, IE, either the movie or the short story, but not both in the same argument.

You said:

jacks wife acted as though she did not know Ennis at all...

That's not true, sweet_man_1, in the movie. She says: who? who is this?  But then she says...I know you..you're the fishing buddy...or hunting buddy. So she clearly does recognize the name and knows it's the guy she never met, but who Jack goes to meet for so many years. And in an earlier scene, she has said to Jack, ....it just doesn't seem fair..you going up there all these years......why can't your buddy come down here sometime....  And Jack says something about the big fish...and then says..and likely Ennis's pickup wouldn't make it here.
 
sweet_man_1, your point 3 is important. In all our discussion of what we believe happened to Jack, murder or accidental death, it is worth reminding us that it is WE, the viewers, who are having this discussion, and through it all, an important element of the film is that Ennis never really KNOWS for sure, as you say. So his uncertainty remains, even as we discuss, and his uncertainty is very crucial to the film from there on out. We see him in these next two important scenes and we know he has heard a story, but likely believes another version of Jack's death...but he is never certain and that uncertainty will always be there forcing him to question his choices throughout the previous 20 years of his relationship with Jack. Could things have been different if he had made different choices. If he had ranched-up together with Jack....etc.

sweet_man_1, I completely agree with your point 4. Though I'm also certain, Jack NEVER discussed Ennis as a "lover" or that he loved him, or anything at all about homosexuality, his Mother and Father both knew the score. And his Mother likely had been able to keep on loving Jack in an open way, while his Father fought with anger and probably disgust, but still loved Jack, his only son. I've said that in that scene, we see an ANGRY grief-stricken man, resentful for having lost his son, even if during Jack's lifetime, his Father couldn't ever express his love for and to Jack in any positive way. I also think that the way Jack's father says: ENNIS......DEL.....MAR.... is condemning of Ennis.....as in...YOU....it's your fault....  (Either for causing Jack to be the way he was, or for never having come up here to help the ranch as Jack wanted.)  But now, after he is dead, you come here.

To me his insistent on Jack's ashes going in the family plot, while easily viewed as vindictive to Jack's wishes, and thus to Ennis who came asking for them, is really about holding on to all that he and his wife have of their only son.

As to your point 5, whatever the author put in the story, I don't comment on here, but in the movie, the accident story and the beating murder are essential to create the conflict and uncertainty within Ennis. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss and come to our own individual conclusions.

However, it in the film, we had seen evidence unmistakably showing that it was an accident, like the police or the accident itself in clear terms, we, the viewing audience would then have an emotional remove from Ennis. We would KNOW that Ennis was mistaken, and so we would be one step further away from his emotional turmoil. It's brilliant of Ang Lee to keep the audience in an equally uncertain state, while still giving us the clues and the facts, so that we continue to FEEL Ennis's pain and confusion and tragedy.

Jack in Maine

[matsuki33]

Well to be honest with you when i saw the movies on last sunday  my friends and i have a long discussion about that, me and one of my friends thought he was murdered but then my girlfriend and the rest of our friends (who are psicologist) put their point of view in the way that Lureen was talkingwith him in a certain way she was passing by a bad time. she was totally senseless and it is like when you lost the person that you love you feel totally souless that was the way she was acting. and they explain us that ennis was having trauma fro what he saw so by default when she told him the story he obviously was going to think worst in the middle of nothing maybe he was in his "things" one thing my friends expose was that maybe jack died on one of his trips to mexico and it make sense he was in the middle of nothing when his car failed and he tried to fixed it and he died. afte thinking all the other views i realized that he died and ennis thougth he was killed because he felt guilty because he was unable to at least tell him i love you or move with him.

[sam]

I have just read the marvelously long  but very 'in-depth' explanation of Jack's death written by Jack_ME (on the pervious page) and I can just about start to cry.  Until now, I've not come across anyone who could put down in such a clear and understandable manner, my thoughts exactly!  Thank you Jack_ME! Wonderfully put, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. My words exactly!

Just a few additional thoughts:

Considering the historical context in which Annie Proulx wrote her short story dealing with male homosexuality (cowboys or not!) in the 'time frame' of America in just that exact 20 year range...it would be simply ludicrous for us to even surmise that Jack's death was purely 'accidental'.  In fact, by doing so, would create a disappointing 'anti-climax to this poignant tale, which I am sure, is not the original intention of this wonderfully brave and inspiring writer.

Anyone getting killed in such a vile and hateful manner is not the stuff most people would want to hear about in 'graphic' detail.  We always try our best to keep things 'sanitary' and 'acceptable' when speaking of such disdainful subjects...  "But the truth is..." such useless acts of human hate and violence have always existed (continue to exist?).  And sadly...even more often than not, in that 'All-American Epic Cowboy Milieu' that Ennis and Jack lived in.

Everything in Proulx's short story, McMurty and Ossana's screenplay, and Lee's film, slowly, but intelligently lead up to this.  All three gently, but skillfully broach the subject in such a way that both forces us to open up our eyes and forces us to think about such a contemptful situation.

And in real life, the tragic death of Matthew Shepard in Wyoming and the now ongoing backlash of 'anti-Brokeback Mountain/anti-homosexual film' leading up to the Oscars of 2006 are certainly proof of this... :'(

My personal thoughts on Lureen, is as follows...

I agree with several of the previous postings...I believe that she (in her own way), truly loved Jack.  Certainly not in the same way that that Ennis did/does....but...

If she didn't, the marriage would have broken up a long time ago.  Lureen is presented to us as a strong and willful type of gal who actively 'gets up and goes' for what she wants. ( "What're you waitin' for? A mating call?" & "You don't think I'm too fast, do you?").  Also, she came from a well-to-do family (hundred thousand dollar tractors), and was used to getting what she wanted.  It would be out-of-character for her to have stayed married to Jack for such a long time, if she didn't love him.  She didn't come across to me as the type that would simply just lay down and willfully accept a 'goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory situation'...

It amazes me to discover that so many of you found her to be 'cold' and a 'snow queen'.  I've watched the entire film more than 10 times now, and I never got that impression.  My feelings are that she was simply a woman who loved the man 'Jack'.  Quietly, yet dearly, and of course sadly....  Like Ennis said to Jack earlier in the film about Alma: "...it's not her fault."...it was also not Lureen's fault that she loved a man who could only give her 'so much'...  She was just a woman in love with Jack trying to make the best of what she had...with what Jack could give her... Life doesn't always give us what we want.  Lureen might have wanted more, but she made do with what she had.  She might not have been thoroughly "HAPPY" about it, but she accepted Jack for who he was, and let him visit Ennis throughout the years...

Her lifeless and 'seemingly' cold tone of voice in that last telephone conversation with Ennis, was in my opinion just her way of protecting herself from the pain and sadness she felt over Jack's tragic ending.  (Which also signifies the ending of her own love of many, many years for a man who could only love her back 'so much'...)  She had this 'prepared speech' of what she would say to anyone inquiring of his death....and would deliver it automatically, almost robot-like to anyone that would ask.  You see, I am sure, that many people besides Ennis, would have wanted to know from her, how Jack died...

In the phone conversation with Ennis, she begins her 'prepared speech' in the cold and automated manner she was accustomed to, but when she finally realizes who she really has on the other side of the phone line ("Well ma'am, we ...we was herdin' sheep on Brokeback one summer.  Back in '63")....she let's out the first small, almost inaudible gasp, and her eyes only then, slowly start to fill with tears...

The text which follows is poignant as it is an extremely good example of how people often refuse to say what they really mean...fumbling around by saying one thing...but really meaning 'another'.  For us to really understand what is being said...we have to very carefully 'read between the lines'...

Ennis says: "Well ma'am, we...we was herdin' sheep on Brokeback one summer.  Back in '63."
Meaning: "I'm Ennis.  "The" Ennis from Brokeback Mountain, you know...(the one Jack loved all these years...)"

Lureen let's out a small gasp meaning: "Oh, so YOU are Ennis! Jack's secret love..."

Lureen says: "Well, he said it was his favorite place...I thought he meant to get drunk. He drank alot."
Meaning: "Brokeback Mountain was his favorite place... it was his favorite place to see you.  He loved seeing you. You were his favorite...He loved you."

Ennis says: "Well, I thank you for your time...I sure am sorry...We was good friends..."
Meaning: "Thank you for 'telling' me that he loved me...I know that you loved him too and that his death is ALSO a great loss for you too. I surely did love him..."

Here, Lureen lets out her second small gasp meaning: "It's hard for me to accept that I was 'second place'...but okay, I know that you loved him too."
Her eyes saturate to the brim with tears...
And...in an extremely difficult, but unselfish way, she FORCES herself to say the following:

Lureen says: "Get in touch with his folks...I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out...'bout the ashes, I mean..."
Meaning: "I KNOW what Jack must have meant to you. I understand how BAD this is for you. Visit his folks...'bout his ashes...it might be but a small thing, but it might somehow help you to grieve..."

She then slams the phone back on the hook.  Not in anger...but because it took every ounce of her strength and willpower to say all that needed to be said to Ennis (Jack's Main Love)  during this extremely difficult last few minutes of the conversation.  She has made the grand gesture of telling Ennis to get in touch with Jack's folks... And finally, the effort simply overwhelms her with emotion, and she ends it to stop feeling the pain.  There's nothing more to be said.  She has said everything of importance.  And so has Ennis...

Each must now go their separate ways to deal with Jacks death...each of them, alone.  Each of them lonely and filled with grief.

Sam: "God! The perfection in this film....it overwhelms me...!!!!"

Brokeback Mountain...I Love You!

[Jack_ME]

I have just read the marvelously long  but very 'in-depth' explanation of Jack's death written by Jack_ME (on the previous page) and I can just about start to cry.  Until now, I've not come across anyone who could put down in such a clear and understandable manner, my thoughts exactly!  Thank you Jack_ME! Wonderfully put, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. My words exactly!

Thank you Sam.
For your compliment and for your comments.

The text which follows is poignant as it is an extremely good example of how people often refuse to say what they really mean...fumbling around by saying one thing...but really meaning 'another'.  For us to really understand what is being said...we have to very carefully 'read between the lines'...

Ennis says: "Well ma'am, we...we was herdin' sheep on Brokeback one summer.  Back in '63."
Meaning: "I'm the Ennis from Brokeback Mountain...the one Jack loved all these years..."

Lureen let's out a small gasp meaning: "Oh, so YOU are Ennis! Jack's secret love..."

Lureen says: "Well, he said it was his favorite place...I thought he meant to get drunk. He drank alot."
Meaning: "Brokeback Mountain was his favorite place... it was his favorite place to see you.  He loved seeing you. You were his favorite...He loved you."

Ennis says: "Well, I thank you for your time...I sure am sorry...We was good friends..."
Meaning: "Thank you for 'telling' me that he loved me...I know that you loved him too and that his death is ALSO a great loss for you too. I surely did love him..."

Here, Lureen lets out her second small gasp meaning: "It's hard for me to accept that I was 'second place'...but okay, I know that you loved him too."
Her eyes saturate to the brim with tears...
And...in an extremely difficult, but unselfish way, she FORCES herself to say the following:

Lureen says: "Get in touch with his folks...I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out...'bout the ashes, I mean..."
Meaning: "I KNOW what Jack must have meant to you. I understand how BAD this is for you. Visit his folks...'bout his ashes...it might be but a small thing, but it might somehow help you to grieve..."

She then slams the phone back on the hook.  Not in anger...but because it took every ounce of her willpower to say all that needed to be said to Ennis (Jack's main Love)  during this extremely difficult last few minutes of conversation.  She has made the grand gesture of telling Ennis to get in touch with Jack's folks... And finally, the effort simply overwhelms her with emotion, and she ends it to stop feeling the pain.  There's nothing more to be said.  She has said everything of importance.  And so has Ennis...

Each must now go their separate ways to deal with Jacks death...each of them, alone.  Each of them lonely and filled with grief.

Talk about being overwhelmed with emotion!
Sam your interpretation of the true messages behind the words used is marvelous, and had the tears rolling down my cheeks once again for this movie and these characters!
You've put it very well, I feel.

Thank you for sharing your views and for your excellent commentary.

There is no doubt that this film is a true gem.
All the small but important choices everyone made in creating this film  came together beautifully to create this wonderful work of human art.


Jack in Maine

[/size]

[sam]

Yes, I agree, Jack in Maine!

It amazes me to no end, how 'perfect' it is...still, after each viewing, I sit in quiet awe, simply overcome with emotion...about how wonderful this film really is...

All the pieces fit together...

There is not 'too much', and not 'too little'...there is 'just enough'...

And, the movie treats us (viewer's) like 'intelligent' people... a VERY welcome and refreshing attitude!

It's amazing that such an incredible ensemble of great minds got together to create this quiet movie masterpiece. 

Starting from the writer Annie Proulx, to the award winning screenwirters McMurty and Ossana, leading to the master of cinema fine art: director Ang Lee...and not to forget, the wonderfully chosen cast of actors, Heath, Jake, Michelle, Ann, Randy...

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! ALL OF YOU!