Author Topic: Why did Alma take so long?  (Read 22464 times)

Offline chowhound

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Why did Alma take so long?
« on: Feb 21, 2010, 05:15 PM »
I've always been a little puzzled by why Alma waited so long before confronting Ennis about his relationship with Jack. After all, there's almost ten years between the reunion kiss and Alma's outburst in the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner:

1963. Ennis marries Alma.

1967. Sept. 24. Reunion kiss.

1972. July/August. Ennis almost forgets creel case.

1975. Nov 6. Divorce.

1977. Nov. Thanksgiving dinner.

We know that Alma, after seeing the reunion kiss, hatches a scheme to find out more about these "fishing trips" that Ennis and Jake take together. This is how Alma explains it in the kitchen scene:

"So one time I got your creel case open the night before you went on one a your little trips - price tag still on it after five years - and I tied a note on the end of the line. It said, hello Ennis, bring some fish home, love, Alma. And you came back and said you'd caught a bunch a browns and ate them up. Remember? I looked in the case when I got a chance and there was my note still tied there and that line hadn't touched water in its life."

It is not clear when this happened. However, there is one scene in the movie in the July/August of 1972 when Ennis almost leaves without his creel case and Alma calls his attention to this. Of course, his forgetfulness could simply suggest that fishing wasn't the first thing on his mind as he hurries off to meet Jack. Alma, however, would have even more reason for not letting Ennis forget his creel case if that's the occasion when she has concealed the note within it. If that's the case, Alma would have had her suspicions about her husband and Jack more or less confirmed by the late summer of '72, yet still she chooses to remain silent.

They divorce about three years after this (Nov.6, '75) and Alma, with a fair degree of rapidity, marries Monroe. By the Thanksgiving scene, she is comfortably settled in her new house and, in addition, is about four or five months pregnant. So, all in all, it seems as though Alma is now enjoying the domestic security and financial stability that she scarcely ever enjoyed with Ennis.

Yet, it is at this point in her life, that she at last brings up Jack and throws their affair into her ex-husband's face. Why? And why then?

I have a few half-formed explanatory notions of my own but would be delighted to hear from others what they think on this topic.


Offline rimasworld

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #1 on: Feb 21, 2010, 09:14 PM »
Well they had 2 very young daughters when she first saw the kiss and she needed Ennis to help her support and raise them and also she really did love him so I think she put up with it for all those years even though we know all of Ennis' free time was spent with Jack and not her or the kids. Alma really didn't have a lot of options so she kind of had to stand it too like Ennis thought he had to with his arrangement with Jack. It wasn't until she had remarried and more secure that the outburst happened and I think it was because Ennis said "Once burned" when she asked him why he didn't get remarried and of course that really pissed Alma off because Ennis had really burned her by having an affair. I really think she was just fed up with him at that point and it all came spilling out, all the years of hurt and anger and betrayal.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #2 on: Feb 21, 2010, 11:13 PM »
Good points, rimasworld.

I also see her not knowing where to turn, and putting up with the situation the best she could. Back in 'em days women didn't have a lot of freedom or choices. With two young children, she would have had a tough time getting back on the dating game. She put up with the situation for as long as she could.

Financial security was definitely on her mind. She kept asking Ennis to find a better job, like the one with the power company. He kept finding excuses, preferring the freedom to go off with Jack whenever he felt like it. Ennis wasn't thinking big enough for Alma, nor for Jack for that matter. He kept thinking in circles looking for the handle around the coffee pot. If he had applied himself a little and got a better job, he could have kept Alma and the kids, AND had more time and money to spend with Jack.

Alma was lucky to find a sympathetic figure in Monroe, who just appeared to be the kind of fella who was dependable and boring, but exactly what Alma needed. They were made for each other, so after a year or two of working together, with Alma probably crying over his shoulders a few times about Ennis, the relationship developed and they got divorced. Alma tried to allow Ennis to have visits with the kids, even inviting him to Thanksgiving dinner. It's probably NOT her idea, but I bet Junior asked Monroe and he was good enough to agree, and Alma had no choice but to allow it. She didn't look too happy at the table. When Ennis made stories about him in the rodeo, that's when she lost it. All those lies he told her came back and it's to her credit that she waited until they were alone to confront him. I bet she asked him to help with the dishes. Ennis didn't look like he was too enthusiastic about helping, but he had to be at least act polite.

I think Alma was even willing to be civil when she asked him about never finding someone else to marry. It's hard to say. The way she said, "Jack Nasty" really showed a lot of anger and bitterness and resentment. Was it because Ennis put the blame on her, "Burned once?" Or was it just the resentment that's been bottled up all 'em years? I don't rightly know for sure.

Finally, there is the issue of Alma's own self-esteem. She may be also from a poor background with little education and so she looked up to Ennis all that time. It sure looked that way in the marriage ceremony and the honeymoon. She was shocked to find her idol to be so wicked. It may be that after a few years with Monroe, she gained her sense of equilibrium and self-esteem again, enough to confront who she thought was the master of the universe, but now just a fallen angel.

Good question and I look forward to your theories.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Tony

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #3 on: Feb 21, 2010, 11:31 PM »
Yet, it is at this point in her life, that she at last brings up Jack and throws their affair into her ex-husband's face. Why? And why then?
  Hi, Chowhound- am not sure why Alma put up with the affair with Jack for so long, nor even what part that played in the divorce.  But as far as the Thanksgiving dinner, there seemed to be a lot of varying emotions at work, not just one and only one.
  She seemed to be simmering, a little, at the love the daughters were clearly showing for their father; it's possible that also reminded her of her own love for him.  Also, at the table, he seemed to be alone, the odd person out, and a sympathetic figure.  The guy who had no place else to go for a holiday.
 IMO, she didn't plan a confrontation.  He was very domestic, helping her with the dishes.  It just may have been the first time they were alone since the divorce.  And it seemed she genuinely felt bad about his being alone and so asked....why hadn't he re-married?
  His answer put a guilt trip squarely on her : "once burned..." and I think that brought the walls of restraint tumbling down.  It wasn't her fault they had split up.... there was that.....Jack Nasty....
  Am interested in what you and the others who post develop, but, so far, it seems to me the timing was just converging lines.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #4 on: Feb 21, 2010, 11:44 PM »
  Hi, Chowhound- am not sure why Alma put up with the affair with Jack for so long, nor even what part that played in the divorce.  But as far as the Thanksgiving dinner, there seemed to be a lot of varying emotions at work, not just one and only one.
  She seemed to be simmering, a little, at the love the daughters were clearly showing for their father; it's possible that also reminded her of her own love for him.  Also, at the table, he seemed to be alone, the odd person out, and a sympathetic figure.  The guy who had no place else to go for a holiday.

Good point! There is no scorn like a jealous woman's wrath. She was definitely jealous of the children's affection for the man who she probably thought very little, maybe like Aguirre, even as far as all ranch hands are up to no good.

IMO, she didn't plan a confrontation.  He was very domestic, helping her with the dishes.  It just may have been the first time they were alone since the divorce.  And it seemed she genuinely felt bad about his being alone and so asked....why hadn't he re-married?
  His answer put a guilt trip squarely on her : "once burned..." and I think that brought the walls of restraint tumbling down.  It wasn't her fault they had split up.... there was that.....Jack Nasty....

Well put, Tony. His inadvertent comment shot an arrow into the crack in her armor and the walls came tumbling down. Excuse the mix metaphors.

  Am interested in what you and the others who post develop, but, so far, it seems to me the timing was just converging lines.

Love that phrase...so much of Brokeback Mountain was just converging lines... Ennis and Jack converging on Brokeback one summer, Jack and Lureen converging in a Texan Rodeo one year, Ennis and Jack in a reunion kiss converging with Alma on the porch one day, Monroe and Alma converging in a workplace romance, Cassie and Ennis converging (well, maybe this was not so much convergence but actual pursuit on Cassie's part)...and worse of all, the final convergence between Jack and a tire iron.  :(

D@#* The fine line to PBS is so fr@#@king thin.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #5 on: Feb 22, 2010, 01:54 PM »
There's few things more to be said about this so interesting subject,but I'd remark again the fact of the economical (and social) security as the one that kept her moth shut during so many years.We mustn't forget that Alma is a product of her age and economical-educational circumstances,what easily could drive her reactions in one or another direction; as RW has said,she preferred not to say a word in the first times of her "discovering" for fear of losing her (even if rather little) security,both in economical and in social aspects.If she had said anything when she saw them kissing,surely events would have precipitated,including a divorce; then a divorced woman was not very well considered for her family,neighbours and society in general,adding moreover the fact of an insecurity in her daughters's and her own future.How many times have we seen some woman who,not being happy with her husband,prefers to shut up and stand it up in exchange of an economically resolved future,even nowadays?...
Look at the fact that they only get divorced not only when situation is already untenable,but when Alma has also her own economical security with an stable job,what makes her feel surer of herself too...And that she confesses the truth to Ennis when she,somehow,feels like being in a superior degree in comparison with him;now he is the looser,without the security of an stable job and with a male lover who hide from society,whereas she's the winner as she's living as she had always wanted.Her confession and the way she talks to Ennis,IMO,is a kind of revenge at the same than a relief of something she had had hidden during so many years; the depictful tone of who feels better,happier and surer than who is now her "enemy".All this "decorated" with my theory that she still loved Ennis then and that she had never stopped loving him really,what added the ingredient of feeling disgusted and depicted.Maybe Ennis "once burned" was the trigger that made burst her rage,but I think more that she choose the intimacy of a kitchen after a family reunion when she showed him that she had won.Human mind is complicated sometimes and when love is in the middle,still more...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Offline Tony

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #6 on: Feb 22, 2010, 03:03 PM »
..... but I think more that she choose the intimacy of a kitchen after a family reunion when she showed him that she had won.
  Yes, people do have their need to see who "won" and who "lost" after splitting up. I had forgotten that. So, there probably was some sizing up, there, of Ennis as a loser, which might have provoked different feelings from her.  Curiously, he didn't seem to mind being a loser.  Alone, without family, on a holiday, he went there to be with his daughters.  No false pride. And no baiting of Alma, either.  He even seemed to know he was a "pity" guest, but didn't care, IMO, so long as he could be with his daughters.
  I've noticed a trend towards portraying Ennis as a bully and villain, on other forums. And the evidence often includes the rage in the kitchen, where he threatened her. But, before that, we don't see anything but a quiet, gentle, humble Ennis, who didn't think in terms of Alma "winning", and was unaware a confrontation was headed his way.

  Andrew, thanks for seeing those converging lines all over the place, too.  They have to be there, in fiction, but, for whatever reason, they are also there in life, and sometimes to a scary degree.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #7 on: Feb 22, 2010, 04:30 PM »
  Yes, people do have their need to see who "won" and who "lost" after splitting up. I had forgotten that. So, there probably was some sizing up, there, of Ennis as a loser, which might have provoked different feelings from her.  Curiously, he didn't seem to mind being a loser.  Alone, without family, on a holiday, he went there to be with his daughters.  No false pride. And no baiting of Alma, either.  He even seemed to know he was a "pity" guest, but didn't care, IMO, so long as he could be with his daughters.
  I've noticed a trend towards portraying Ennis as a bully and villain, on other forums. And the evidence often includes the rage in the kitchen, where he threatened her. But, before that, we don't see anything but a quiet, gentle, humble Ennis, who didn't think in terms of Alma "winning", and was unaware a confrontation was headed his way.

  Andrew, thanks for seeing those converging lines all over the place, too.  They have to be there, in fiction, but, for whatever reason, they are also there in life, and sometimes to a scary degree.

 O0 Tony. Your portrayal of Ennis is right on the money. That's what came across from Heath's masterful performance at the Thanksgiving dinner.  I think Ennis was above the pettiness of all that. He knew he had nothing and he was content with nothing. He cared only about the girls and Jack, the only relationships in his life that meant anything. He probably cared a lot for Alma and Cassie but he also knew he could not give them what they wanted, needed. In that sense, he admitted to himself that he was a loser. "I am nothing..." in the final confrontation with Jack was also a release from all 'em years of feeling a sense of failure, not just from the relationship with Jack.

Ennis was not a bully in the kitchen, in my opinion, because he was not trying to hurt Alma or put her down. In fact, he showed a lot of restraint despite all the anger. Ennis was VERY protective by nature, especially when it came to what he cared about, like the time in the fourth of July incident. I believe Ennis was being protective of his relationship with Jack, their time together in the mountains. Those few times a year represent something like heaven, and when Alma made that idea sound so nasty, he was angry and also resentful, like she was. "You don't know nothing about it." It was not about sex; perhaps at this point, or even earlier with all 'em thinking he did by the fire before SNIT, he had a hint that it was definitely about friendship, and perhaps even more. It took a bit longer for Ennis to admit that it was love.

Yes, Tony, life imitates art,  :s) or is that the other way round? So many convergences made Brokeback Mountain and this forum possible. It is not scary; it is wonderful. I love convergences.  <^(
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #8 on: Feb 22, 2010, 10:35 PM »
I think that for Alma, it was something dark and shameful -- and she would be happy if it could be buried and kept hidden forever.

We should remember that for someone like Alma, Ennis's behavior and betrayal brought shame to the whole family.  And her not confronting it simply reflected the painful reality that it didn't reflect well on her either.

I really feel that Alma must have regretted her confronting Ennis during Tahnksgiving.   But I guess it was just too much for her to keep it locked within her -- together with all those years of anger, humiliation, disappontment, and -- yes -- loss of faith in family and in love.

I've always been a little puzzled by why Alma waited so long before confronting Ennis about his relationship with Jack. After all, there's almost ten years between the reunion kiss and Alma's outburst in the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner:

1963. Ennis marries Alma.

1967. Sept. 24. Reunion kiss.

1972. July/August. Ennis almost forgets creel case.

1975. Nov 6. Divorce.

1977. Nov. Thanksgiving dinner.

We know that Alma, after seeing the reunion kiss, hatches a scheme to find out more about these "fishing trips" that Ennis and Jake take together. This is how Alma explains it in the kitchen scene:

"So one time I got your creel case open the night before you went on one a your little trips - price tag still on it after five years - and I tied a note on the end of the line. It said, hello Ennis, bring some fish home, love, Alma. And you came back and said you'd caught a bunch a browns and ate them up. Remember? I looked in the case when I got a chance and there was my note still tied there and that line hadn't touched water in its life."

It is not clear when this happened. However, there is one scene in the movie in the July/August of 1972 when Ennis almost leaves without his creel case and Alma calls his attention to this. Of course, his forgetfulness could simply suggest that fishing wasn't the first thing on his mind as he hurries off to meet Jack. Alma, however, would have even more reason for not letting Ennis forget his creel case if that's the occasion when she has concealed the note within it. If that's the case, Alma would have had her suspicions about her husband and Jack more or less confirmed by the late summer of '72, yet still she chooses to remain silent.

They divorce about three years after this (Nov.6, '75) and Alma, with a fair degree of rapidity, marries Monroe. By the Thanksgiving scene, she is comfortably settled in her new house and, in addition, is about four or five months pregnant. So, all in all, it seems as though Alma is now enjoying the domestic security and financial stability that she scarcely ever enjoyed with Ennis.

Yet, it is at this point in her life, that she at last brings up Jack and throws their affair into her ex-husband's face. Why? And why then?

I have a few half-formed explanatory notions of my own but would be delighted to hear from others what they think on this topic.



Offline jackster

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #9 on: Feb 25, 2010, 01:17 PM »
Why? And why then?

A great question CH and these are all intriguing and thought provoking replies. Wonderful to be able to go back four years later, think about this and share ideas with so many intelligent interested folks.

The basic questions you pose, Why and Why then? Is maybe unanswerable. Who knows why people do the things they do when they do them. In the SS Annie makes it seem almost premeditated “After the pie Alma got him in the kitchen . . .” as if there was motive to this. The movie makes it seem slightly more accidental, but both include Ennis’s “Once burned” reply that seems to have been the match to light the fire as Tony and MPJ point out. If Ennis had replied with something less accusatory or more frank, like “Ah, I’m better off on my own” or in Juniors words “Maybe I ain’t the marrying kind” – Maybe Alma would have let it go, felt Ennis had come to understand himself and didn’t need any prodding. But with his flip remark about her, blaming her, she felt “OK here we go” and started to lay out the case against Jack Nasty. Throwing the truth back in Ennis’s face. Though Alma being able to so easily recall the events around the creel case and the fishing line seem pretty premeditated to me.

“Why?” Maybe she wanted to make sure Ennis knew who he was. She might still have some deeper feelings for him; he was the father of her children after all. But her use of the term “Jack Nasty” makes it pretty clear where she stands on the subject of queers, so this seems unlikely.

“I know what it means. Jack Twist? Jack Nasty. You and him . . . ”

What did she think would be the end result here? Ennis was gonna’ fess up an spill all the beans to her. Not likely. Maybe she was lookin’ to blackmail him for a bit more alimony support. Doesn’t seem likely either, since he had nuthin’.

Why? I feel Alma just wanted Ennis to know that she knew, knew positively. And of course Ennis’s reaction just cemented this knowledge. I bet that afterward Alma felt relieved (as did maybe Ennis) that it was out, if only between the two of them. I wonder why Alma didn’t use the reunion kiss instead of the fishing line as evidence? Maybe it was too undeniable and she wanted to see if Ennis would go the deny route and then she’d bring that out as backup ammo.
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #10 on: Feb 25, 2010, 02:03 PM »
A great question CH and these are all intriguing and thought provoking replies. Wonderful to be able to go back four years later, think about this and share ideas with so many intelligent interested folks.
[...]
What did she think would be the end result here? Ennis was gonna’ fess up an spill all the beans to her. Not likely. Maybe she was lookin’ to blackmail him for a bit more alimony support. Doesn’t seem likely either, since he had nuthin’.

Why? I feel Alma just wanted Ennis to know that she knew, knew positively. And of course Ennis’s reaction just cemented this knowledge. I bet that afterward Alma felt relieved (as did maybe Ennis) that it was out, if only between the two of them. I wonder why Alma didn’t use the reunion kiss instead of the fishing line as evidence? Maybe it was too undeniable and she wanted to see if Ennis would go the deny route and then she’d bring that out as backup ammo.


Agree with the first paragraph.

As you said about people's motives, sometimes it's not so easy to define.

However, I feel Alma had enough of Ennis coming across like the good guy at the Thanksgiving table, and not just a little jealous of the girls continuing affection for him. It's never easy to be the parent who doles out the discipline, as oppose to Ennis, the cowboy dad who comes to visit once in a while and spoil his princesses with fun and attention.

I am sure she was premeditated getting Ennis alone to confront him with the truth, but as you said, his flippant response got her mad and she responded in kind.

The end result? I think she got what she wanted, which is to keep Ennis from her house, in future holidays, and more distance from the girls. Two years and didn't know Junior had a new boyfriend, a fiancee? Ennis was almost completely cut-off from the girls by the end.

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Offline jackster

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #11 on: Feb 25, 2010, 03:58 PM »
. . . I feel Alma had enough of Ennis coming across like the good guy at the Thanksgiving table, and not just a little jealous of the girls continuing affection for him.
. . . I think she got what she wanted, which is to keep Ennis from her house, in future holidays, and more distance from the girls. Two years and didn't know Junior had a new boyfriend, a fiancee? Ennis was almost completely cut-off from the girls by the end.

Andrew: hmmm. Ennis as the "good guy". - maybe in that scene where he's talkin' horses and rodeo stuff to charm the girls, but it's hard for me to imagine him in that particular role in a broad sense. Other than what he can do by just giving his love to his girls how's he gonna' look like a good guy to them, he can't really shower them with gifts, or provide a stable, comfortable home, or anything Alma can't provide. An' we do see him and Junior later (w/ Cassie) so there's still some communication if not admiration there. Maybe 'cause Alma's the one that instigated the divorce, to the girls Ennis looks like he got stiffed by Alma (pardon the pun).

It would seem that after the TG walk-out, unless Alma's prepared to come out an' spill everything she thinks she knows to the girls, isn't it going to end up with Alma looking like the mean old witch who drove off daddy? Doesn't seem like what she'd want either. How do you think Alma addressed the outcome of the TG scene? "Oh honey, daddy just remembered he left the gas on at home?"  ;D
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #12 on: Feb 25, 2010, 07:16 PM »
Andrew: hmmm. Ennis as the "good guy". - maybe in that scene where he's talkin' horses and rodeo stuff to charm the girls, but it's hard for me to imagine him in that particular role in a broad sense. Other than what he can do by just giving his love to his girls how's he gonna' look like a good guy to them, he can't really shower them with gifts, or provide a stable, comfortable home, or anything Alma can't provide. An' we do see him and Junior later (w/ Cassie) so there's still some communication if not admiration there. Maybe 'cause Alma's the one that instigated the divorce, to the girls Ennis looks like he got stiffed by Alma (pardon the pun).

It's been a while since I watched the movie. Was the TG scene before or after the Cassie and Junior bar scene?

I ain't no expert but it appears to me that for children from a divorce, the parent they live with has to do more disciplining that the parent they don't live with, so it's natural for them to feel more affection towards the absent, idealized parent. I am sure the children understand that their father is poor and their new step-father is rich, and Alma chose what's best for them (or perhaps for her). As far as the children's concern, Ennis didn't do anything wrong, other than being poor. I think children can forgive poverty more easily than they can forgive being ripped apart. Also, there is a natural strong bond between father and daughters, especially when the father is a laconic charismatic cowboy like Ennis. How can they not love with him? Alma ain't the affectionate kind either, so I am sure they respect her, but that's about as far as their relationship goes.

It would seem that after the TG walk-out, unless Alma's prepared to come out an' spill everything she thinks she knows to the girls, isn't it going to end up with Alma looking like the mean old witch who drove off daddy? Doesn't seem like what she'd want either. How do you think Alma addressed the outcome of the TG scene? "Oh honey, daddy just remembered he left the gas on at home?"  ;D

Let's face it. Alma wasn't getting any closer to the children as long as Ennis was around. She knew that, and she had enough. You'd be amazed what excuses children will accept from a determined parent. Of course, Junior knew something was up, and that's why she kept touch with Ennis and invited him to her wedding. I am sure Alma discouraged that idea, but it's Junior's wedding after all.

You forget, also, Alma was the one threatened with violence. I am sure she can play the victim real well when she needed. The children have seen Ennis angry, more than once. Whatever excuse she wanted to use, all she needed to say was, "Well, honey, Daddy was in one of his moods. Maybe something went wrong on the ranch. Don't you mind it. Just go on watching television with Monroe. He likes it when you explain the rules of figure skating to him."

Alma was the smart one; Junior sure didn't get her brains from Ennis.
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Offline Tangerine

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #13 on: Mar 08, 2010, 10:31 AM »
I hadn't tought about Alma's need for financial security, but I think it's a good point. She had two young daughters to raise, and she probably thought about her own security. I also agree with myprivatejack about the social pressure. It is true that at that time - and still now -, very often, women didn't dare divorcing or even disagreeing with their husband because of other people's opinion. I'm surprised I didn't think about it, because it's a really important subject in Brokeback Moutain : society preventing people from living the way they want.

I think Alma was deeply ashamed. Ashamed that her husband cheated on her, and moreover, with a man. Talking about it would have made her shame much more real, and this is why, in my opinion, she kept it a 'secret' for so long.
I also think Alma didn't talk about what she knew was going on between Ennis and Jack to protect herself. Not admitting the truth is a way to avoid facing it, and all the complications it carries. She wasn't blind at all, but I supposed she wished she were.

To finish, I think that Alma really loved Ennis, and maybe she wanted to give her marriage a second chance. Maybe she had a little hope that Ennis loved her the way she loved him.
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #14 on: Mar 08, 2010, 11:53 AM »
Bienvenue Tangerine.

Great observation about the factor of social stigma and shame on Alma. It's the same factor that kept so many abusers safe from prosecution for so many years. No one, lest of all the victims, wanted to draw attention to themselves. This explains why Ennis got away with his many trips with Jack for so many years without having much trouble. Even when suspicious, most people would have let it go.

I don't know for sure about Alma still loving Ennis after the divorce, or even after the reunion kiss. I think from that moment on, and most likely by the time Ennis turned down her request to work for the power company, there was little love lost between them. But who am I to divine the motivations and feelings of a woman? It must have been tough for her to witness the reunion kiss, with no one to turn to or talk with, to explore how she felt, what options she had. As you said, she must have been sad and angry, confused that Ennis no longer loves her, but love a man instead. Michelle Williams did a great job in her role.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #15 on: Mar 08, 2010, 12:17 PM »
Well as others have said, times were different back then, though the 'stigma' still exists today when betrayal enters the picture, meaning people tend to look at the non-cheating partner as if they did something wrong to cause that to happen. It is an extremely painful and devastating thing to go through; all of the little pieces of it are far too lengthy for me to get into here. Why did she wait so long? I don't know. In some cases one waits until they have irrefutable proof; personally, I don't know how she held it in for so long.

The Thanksgiving scene seems realistic to me in that yeah she's a little resentful; how can she not be? Going through this myself with my own daughters, there are times that I just want to tell them the truth especially when they're blaming me because I want out, etc. They have no clue what is underneath all of that and it's going to stay that way until they're older (if they inquire about it) and until then I'm the 'bad guy' in this scenario. It's damn hard to sit there and watch someone who's caused you so much pain, who stole things from you that they can't ever give back looking like the greatest guy in the world. That's not to say that Ennis is a 'bad guy' or anything like that; it's just that it's a bitter pill to swallow. Alma telling Junior and Jenny solves nothing; because of their ages they're not able to fully comprehend it all and are at that stage where telling them something like that could sour them on relationships; keeping quiet is a form of protecting them; bursting that bubble about their father does nothing in the end except be self-serving, using them as weapons to hurt back and all that does is make them more collateral damage then they already are. You tolerate it but it doesn't mean you have to like it.

As to why she had the outburst then... well, it's possible that that was the first time that he'd made the 'once burned' comment and/or the first time he placed the blame on her. Been there, done that and it's a small miracle that I'm not behind bars. It has nothing to do with being a 'woman scorned' or even the fact that the other person was a man, but everything to do with being a human being dealing with betrayal, constant lies and then the final slap across the face with having it all pushed on you.

Maybe Alma simply took the 'high road' in shielding both her children and Ennis; preserving whatever relationship they (he & the children) had -more for the girls sake. As for her still loving him and wanting it to work right after she found out... well your feelings don't just turn off- 'A slow corrosion worked between Ennis and Alma, no real trouble, just widening water'; yup it takes its sweet time for that to happen; but when they turn off... And imo, it's more of struggling to accept one's reality as opposed to avoiding it.
« Last Edit: Mar 08, 2010, 12:33 PM by LuvJackNasty »
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #16 on: Mar 08, 2010, 01:40 PM »
Great post, LJN. You don't say much but when you do, you sure get your point across. Real well.

I agree and love everything you said, and a great big  :ghug: but I especially thank you for quoting that passage, which I forgot about, and the phrase that brings to mind the gradual widening of the waters between two ships, going off in their own directions.  :clap:

In fact, it makes me think that the analogy applies not only to Ennis and Alma, but also to Ennis and Jack at the final confrontation. Jack was going off to a warmer climate, physically and metaphorically in a warmer relationship, more than a few times a year; Ennis was stuck in the same place, same job, same situation paying alimony, going around in circles looking for the handle on the coffee pot. That's where Ennis was at the diner, contemplating the widening waters between him and Jack. The tears from Cassie were the wake up call for him, and the post card to Jack was his way to make up for the space between them.

I don't doubt that had Jack lived to meet that November, they'd tie the knot and hitch their boats together forever. Of course, with Alma, as you said, it was different, and from her perspective, Ennis and Jack were unforgivable.

I also agree with you about her love for the daughters keeping it to herself, instead of telling them, and using the truth to hurt Ennis through them. And I think when the children grow older, they will learn to love and appreciate Alma even more. I have no doubt Alma made the right decision to marry Monroe. The girls are much happier, and she is much happier. I think the scene in the kitchen was also her way of asking Ennis to find someone and be happy. It's too bad that Ennis made a flippant remark instead.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Tangerine

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #17 on: Mar 08, 2010, 02:23 PM »
lancecowboy, when I said that Alma still loved Ennis, I was focusing on the period from the reunion to the end of their marriage. I mean, even if she saw her husband kissing someone else, she can't just stop loving him. As LuvJackNasty said, feelings don't just turn of.
Her feelings probably evolved during the following 10 years, and maybe she didn't love Ennis anymore when they divorced - or not as much as she used to. But she did love him a lot, because she wouldn't have felt so hurt if she didn't.
Jack, I swear.

Offline Tony

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #18 on: Mar 08, 2010, 03:06 PM »
  About Ennis being unfaithful to Alma....am not sure that's how he saw it, and cannot be completely sure that's how it was (although it would  seem obvious to most others).  
  The areas of sexuality and love can have many unusual formats.  For Ennis, the relationship with Jack was so unusual, it's very possible he did not equate that with adultery.  I certainly believe if he had some idea of generic attraction to other men, he should have known his marriage was a lie, unless she accepted that.  But he didn't think he was gay or bisexual (no matter what we think).  He didn't know what "this thing" was. And so, in some simple-minded way, he did not see how much he was, in fact, injuring the marriage.
  In that context, "once burned" was maybe an expression of his (admittedly naive) belief that he had kept rightful to Alma, in the fundamental way (no other women), and was not just putting all the blame on her. She had left him, from his point of view (however illogical that POV might be).

  Please understand, I personally believe a marriage partner is wronged by any unfaithfulness. That's even worse for the metaphysical approach for Christians who would have read what Jesus said:  if you even look with lust upon another women, you have committed adultery in your heart. (And we had Jimmy Carter confessing to that in an interview....phew).
  So I am in no way saying Ennis had not wronged Alma. Am saying that there are varying understandings of unfaithfulness.  Most of us see that he was unfaithful.  But he didn't.  There were a lot of things Ennis didn't understand as he was confronted with that unusual love for Jack.

 Yes, Ennis had comprehension problems.  This same Ennis was enraged by the thought of Jack going to Mexico. And then finally, sad and complacent as OMT told him of a more serious affair Jack had had.
 Alma did not deserve finding her husband loving another man, nor did she understand it.  But we should remember, AP had her divorcing him to better herself and the children financially.
 Adultery is contemptible, and fraudulent when based on selfish sexual gratification. But if it's based on a huge love-hit, then it is a catastrophic entanglement, and how the hurts there are ever healed, I would not know.  In Ennis' case, though, we should at least consider that he did not understand what had happened to him, let alone what it meant to his marriage.
  He compartmentalized, whether rightly or wrongly: "Now you leave Alma out of this; it's not her fault..."

 He didn't understand.  That does not make the fact of injury to Alma any less.  But at least he was not gratuitously flipping off the marriage vows, snickering over fooling his wife, playing the "hot-stuff" guy.  He loved Jack.  He probably loved Alma.  He had trouble understanding either love, so he darn sure was backwards on how he had done her wrong.  He might not even have known of her hurt until the Thanksgiving dinner.
  So, a natural question following the question of this thread.....what took Ennis so long?  To figure out....it was adultery?

 Finally, it really must have rankled Alma to see Ennis seen as "the good guy" by his daughters, as was shown, so completely, by LJN. In most every case, that just stinks, and Alma had probably suffered just about enough, on that score.  But I hope we can see that Ennis wasn't playing that. We do not see him trying to alienate the kids from their Mom.  He really was so very quiet and humble at the dinner table, and even deflected attention from himself, as the kids wanted to hear him talk.  That he never undermined Alma, or played victim, to the kids, might be proven by Alma Jr.s statement to Cassie: "Maybe he's just not the marrying kind".  Would she have said that, if Ennis had been either trashing Alma, or playing the innocent victim?
  For all the evils and hurts of unfaithfulness, that can never be excused, maybe we can find complete empathy for Alma and some understanding that Ennis was not a "player".  The tragedy of that marriage was, IMO, unique.
« Last Edit: Mar 08, 2010, 05:20 PM by Tony »

Offline Tony

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #19 on: Mar 08, 2010, 03:48 PM »
  My post above, has caused me some soul-searching, and so, am posting again.  I did not, in any way, want to let Ennis off the hook, as factually guilty, nor, in any way, brush off the injury done to Alma.
  BBM is focused on the great tragedy of the love affair of Ennis and Jack.  But we all saw the great pains, of so many different types, suffered by others in the story. It is very realistic, there.  We saw, for example, the suffering of Jack's mother.  We certainly saw the great confusion and hurt of Alma after the Reunion kiss.  But we should try to remember, Ennis didn't know how bad it was at Lightning Flat, or maybe he would have considered moving there with Jack.  And he did not see Alma's tears.  He did not even understand how Cassie had loved him, or how she could find anything worthwhile in him. Whenever he did learn, though, he hurt greatly.  The shirts were just that kind of revelation, that he had been a part of other people's lives.

  What took Alma so long?  Maybe she could not face the depth of the love she had had for Ennis and the gashes in her soul.....until she had some safety.
She had carefully built a new life with Monroe, and time had passed.  Seeing her former husband so alone, that evening, knowing she herself had survived, maybe she could admit her concern for him, as she did.  And then when he let out that he felt she had left him, not the other way around, finally she could let him know how bad it had hurt.....his affair with Jack Twist.  It took her so long, maybe, because she had to find safety. And it took her so long, before she had to be provoked by Ennis never having understood the hurt she had felt. 
  Maybe that's why he let the truck driver beat him up.  He finally knew what he had done to Alma, and wanted a pain he could understand, physical pain, to answer for the pain he could not handle, the savage understanding of how Alma had been hurt.  By him.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #20 on: Mar 08, 2010, 09:04 PM »

In fact, it makes me think that the analogy applies not only to Ennis and Alma, but also to Ennis and Jack at the final confrontation. Jack was going off to a warmer climate, physically and metaphorically in a warmer relationship, more than a few times a year; Ennis was stuck in the same place, same job, same situation paying alimony, going around in circles looking for the handle on the coffee pot. That's where Ennis was at the diner, contemplating the widening waters between him and Jack. The tears from Cassie were the wake up call for him, and the post card to Jack was his way to make up for the space between them.


I never associated that line with J/E but it's appropriate for their relationship as well.  :)

And great posts, Tony. I love what you said about Ennis and not fully knowing that what he was doing was 'wrong'. I feel very bad for him (and Jack too) because no one should have to hide or deny who they are. In this case it's 'easy' to see why it happened because we're onlookers and not only do we know that Jack and Ennis should be together, we want them to be together. I think you said it best with him compartmentalizing it all. Ennis is trapped in a world that he's been forced to try and fit into (compliments of society  >:( ) in addition to fighting his own inner demons- 'this thing' and having no one to talk to about it- and no one should have to endure that. So yeah, there's his pain and then there's Alma's; neither one more/less 'important' than the other. I don't think, in this scenario, either of them is the 'bad guy'; just two people dealing with intense feelings that aren't easy to understand-one doesn't have to be 'bad' in order for the other to be 'good'; there were no 'winners' in this story.

I also agree that Ennis wasn't playing it up at the Thanksgiving dinner, that would be imo, malicious and I don't think Ennis was capable of that. The girls orchestrated that, probably as a screw you to Monroe  ;D and simply because they love their father, as they should.

And as for why she took so long, well it wasn't a one shot thing for her, it continued for years with no time to recover. So perhaps being out of that situation gave her the time to catch her breath and start to heal. And possibly that after going through so many emotions (anger, hurt, being pissed etc) that she finally came to that place where she got mad and acted accordingly when he threw out that comment.
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #21 on: Mar 09, 2010, 01:31 AM »
On the one hand, there is no doubt Jack and Ennis were unfaithful to their wives. On the other hand, there is little to be said of their motivation, in terms of malicious hurtful deceit. As has been said, Ennis did not understand his own feelings enough to even think that this was being adulterous. I think he knew enough to know that he was failing Alma in his duties as a good husband to provide a good home and to give her the attention she deserved. Whether it was another woman, another man, gambling, football, hobbies, work, whatever, to put something else above the relationship is to fail in the relationship, which should always come first. Ennis knew it, but could do little about it. He just knew that Jack was more important. And so the divorce was inevitable.

It doesn't matter why the relationship ended; it still hurts when love comes to an end.

I don't know if Alma ever "blamed" Ennis for it, for the way he was, for his relationship with Jack, but she sure wasn't going to take the blame for it. Her anger was more than justified. Sadly, the two boats were drifting apart because their perspectives were no longer aligned. They saw the world through different eyes. Perhaps, they never saw the world the same to begin with. Ever since Brokeback Mountain that summer, Ennis was only going through the motions, and never connected with another human being the way he connected with Jack. That's the real tragedy, that their marriage was expected from the social norm of the time, and the real marriage between Jack and Ennis was impossible, still impossible in many places.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #22 on: Mar 09, 2010, 08:39 AM »

I don't know if Alma ever "blamed" Ennis for it, for the way he was, for his relationship with Jack, but she sure wasn't going to take the blame for it. Her anger was more than justified. Sadly, the two boats were drifting apart because their perspectives were no longer aligned. They saw the world through different eyes. Perhaps, they never saw the world the same to begin with. Ever since Brokeback Mountain that summer, Ennis was only going through the motions, and never connected with another human being the way he connected with Jack. That's the real tragedy, that their marriage was expected from the social norm of the time, and the real marriage between Jack and Ennis was impossible, still impossible in many places.

So well said!  O0
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline Tony

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #23 on: Mar 10, 2010, 07:59 PM »
And as for why she took so long, well it wasn't a one shot thing for her, it continued for years with no time to recover. So perhaps being out of that situation gave her the time to catch her breath and start to heal. And possibly that after going through so many emotions (anger, hurt, being pissed etc) that she finally came to that place where she got mad and acted accordingly when he threw out that comment.
 Yeah, she wasn't expecting that comment from him either.  She may have been angry, but she was also concerned for him, expressed that concern, and then was stupefied he saw her as the problem, as she had wanted the divorce.
 Then, too, all of her feelings may have been made stronger by the domestic memories aroused by him being there, side by side, helping her with the dishes.  Just as he had helped her with the children when they were sick, and babysitted when she had to work (although not so cheerfully when that conflicted with his job, or....dinner).
  Ennis had some surface level sexism to him but, in practice, she knew he had helped with raising the children, supported her job to some degree, and did housework.  And there he was, again, by her side, washing dishes.....very domestic, and that must have brought back memories.

   By the way, my take on Alma's sizing up of his affair with Jack, was that it had never occurred to her that her husband was gay and she had no experience with that as an explanation. No, IMO, she seemed to see it as men being doggie dogs about sex and Jack was some kind of perv who was seducing her husband.  She really didn't challenge Ennis as being gay....she laid it all, it seems to me, on Jack.  Jack Nasty.  Not Ennis Nasty.  At least that's how it seemed to me, from that conversation.  It was as if she had accused him of having doings with prostitutes. They would be nasty; her husband just a dum dum, maybe with low standards, as men were, in her opinion perhaps, wont to have. She didn't seem able, IMO, to go the last step, and consider there was a love, or even a predilection, on Ennis' part.  I don't think she ever saw Ennis as gay.  The "Was Ennis Gay" thread would have been a real dilemma for her!

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #24 on: Mar 10, 2010, 11:30 PM »
 Yeah, she wasn't expecting that comment from him either.  She may have been angry, but she was also concerned for him, expressed that concern, and then was stupefied he saw her as the problem, as she had wanted the divorce.
 Then, too, all of her feelings may have been made stronger by the domestic memories aroused by him being there, side by side, helping her with the dishes.  Just as he had helped her with the children when they were sick, and babysitted when she had to work (although not so cheerfully when that conflicted with his job, or....dinner).
  Ennis had some surface level sexism to him but, in practice, she knew he had helped with raising the children, supported her job to some degree, and did housework.  And there he was, again, by her side, washing dishes.....very domestic, and that must have brought back memories.

Right on, Tony.  O0 The man who internalized so much homophobia likely also internalized a lot of the prejudices of his time and place. Women belonged in the home, and all that. Witness the scene when Alma had to go in for an extra shift and Ennis threw a fit in front of the girls, that nobody's eating if Alma wasn't serving it. From the reaction of the girls, it wasn't the first time Ennis blew up in anger. Alma truly had mixed feelings with Ennis...on the one hand, as you and others have said, the lingering love from years of loving and working together raising the girls, and on the other, the fear and anger of being treated not as a precious partner, but an appendage to his needs.

  By the way, my take on Alma's sizing up of his affair with Jack, was that it had never occurred to her that her husband was gay and she had no experience with that as an explanation. No, IMO, she seemed to see it as men being doggie dogs about sex and Jack was some kind of perv who was seducing her husband.  She really didn't challenge Ennis as being gay....she laid it all, it seems to me, on Jack.  Jack Nasty.  Not Ennis Nasty.  At least that's how it seemed to me, from that conversation.  It was as if she had accused him of having doings with prostitutes. They would be nasty; her husband just a dum dum, maybe with low standards, as men were, in her opinion perhaps, wont to have. She didn't seem able, IMO, to go the last step, and consider there was a love, or even a predilection, on Ennis' part.  I don't think she ever saw Ennis as gay.  The "Was Ennis Gay" thread would have been a real dilemma for her!

I never understood how Alma might feel but I think you have hit home the closest. To her, Ennis was still the husband, cowboy, the man she fell in love with long ago. But Jack Nasty was the prev that corrupted her man.  O0 Good points, buddy.  :c) :cr)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Why did Alma take so long?
« Reply #25 on: Mar 11, 2010, 02:19 PM »
I think that for Alma believing that everything was due to Jack's immorality was an easier way to understand and,above all,admit her own failure.Because is sure than she felt as a looser in her marriage,something that hits deeply inside anybody and that makes you ask yourself why this has happen and where you have failed.So,thinking that her husband was the "victim" of some prev who made him "fall into sin" is also a way to believe that she wasn't as bad a wife as circomstances could make her think.As a matter of fact,men are weak as regards to sex matter,even sometimes they like to "taste" something new,but it doesn't mean that their wives aren't good enough,she must say to herself...I think that it was a kind of healing for her during the long years when she tried desperately to recover her husband.no telling anything,no showing anything,never confessing she knew everything from the very beginning because she had the almost impossible wish of being the winner in that battle of love.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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