Topic: Was Ennis telling a "boldfaced lie"?

[chowhound]

Earlier today I was reading an interview that Tom Benz, the production manager of Brokeback Mountain, gave in the October of 2006. The following passage I found of interest:

  Rob: Cut scenes....There were several scenes shot for BBM that were edited out of the final print. Would it be possible to get a very detailed listing of these omitted scenes including the characters involved and how the missing scenes related to the plot?

 

Tom: I'm so far removed now, from the strategies of Brokeback, I wouldn't know about the marketing or packaging. I know for the longest time on eBay, you could buy the script that we shot. And then I suppose the detail that would be in that script would be you'd look at the movie and you'd go "wow, that's scene isn't in there" ...because essentially we filmed the script & then edit the story, not the script...you find the story within what you've photographed, so you shoot the script & you edit the story.

 

Rob: Will these "lost" scenes be made available someday?

 

Tom: Again, I'm away from that part of things. In general, I see a wonderful DVD features market come up....it's not just the movie, it's all the other features...suddenly deleted scenes have a value, where they stayed on the cutting room floor before these features came out.

 

Rob: For example: Ennis brings his children to the market and leaves them with Alma. He declares that he must leave immediately to work at the ranch that night (the heifers are calving). We, in the audience, are left to assume that Ennis is telling a boldface lie. Or is he?

 

 

Tom: I remember, it was in Carstairs, the grocery store......If I remember the context, he is trying to go out & see Jack....it was an excuse to go out & see Jack.

 

Rob: It appears that there is a deleted scene preceding this one showing Jack and Ennis together and making plans. I think the film would have been clearer if this cut scene had been included.

 

Tom: That's an opinion & I think what is always interesting is how a Director wants to make the audience work for the story. When I hear comments like this "it would have been clearer", I must say, many Directors would go "good, I'm making them work for it" rather than be disappointed that it was hard to get. The easier a film is to figure out, the less successful it is. No one is challenged by, nobody wants to see it again.

                                                              _________________

Probably I'm an innocent but had it occurred to others that Ennis was telling a "boldfaced lie" in order to get off for a sudden opportunity to see Jack that had just come up? I've always took it at face value and assumed that he was off to look after the livestock. However, it looks as though I must think about this scene again.

[jackster]

Nope, can't be. At least not in the story that's presented in the final movie cut. Ennis's visit to the store to drop off Jr. and Jenny occurs two scenes prior to the 1967 reunion. After the drop-off we see Jack and Lureen celebrating the birth of Bobby ("Rodeo can get 'em"), and then we see the postcard from Jack suggesting a get together ("we wus fishin' buddies"). So when Ennis brought the kids to the store he had no idea where Jack was, at least this is how WE see it. I'd have to go back and study the scripts to see if Ang rearranged the chronology here.

Ennis didn't tell many lies, noncommittal for sure. Liar? not many, except "fishin' buddies" which of course they were . . . plus.

Personally IMO even Ennis woulda' been pretty dense to tell that as a fib, it would be very easy to check when all the heifers calved at a nearby ranch. In fact I'd say it might even become common knowledge about town when a ranchers heifers all calve, as there would be a sudden demand for other cowboys, helpers, supplies, etc.

[chowhound]

The Tom Benz interview can also be found on Finding Brokeback but that version lacks the "boldfaced lie" passage. I wrote to Jim Bond, one of the board's founders about this discrepancy and this is what he said in reply:

Yes, Rob Freemen did the 2006 Benz interview and posted it on his Brokeback
Truck website. It contains a lot of great material and it was a wonderful
addition to the FB site. Before he met Tom Benz, Rob solicited questions
from members of the Cullen community. As you would expect, some were great
questions, others extended well beyond Benz's areas of responsibility and
expertise. Some contained fan opinions that are unsupported by the record.

We cut the interview questions that were obviously outside of Benz's area or
that where potentially misleading. The people who agreed to interviews were
very good to cooperate with us and they tried hard to remember what happened
years ago when they made the film, but their memories are imperfect. We saw
no reason to embarrass them and to potentially mislead others by publishing
their errors.

Benz did not have any role in editing or marketing the film, the grocery
story scene preceded the postcard scene (as it does in all of the scripts -
there was no collusion with Jack at this point), it was not shot in
Carstairs, etc. Hence our deletion of these questions and answers.

[lancecowboy]

Nope, can't be. At least not in the story that's presented in the final movie cut. Ennis's visit to the store to drop off Jr. and Jenny occurs two scenes prior to the 1967 reunion. After the drop-off we see Jack and Lureen celebrating the birth of Bobby ("Rodeo can get 'em"), and then we see the postcard from Jack suggesting a get together ("we wus fishin' buddies"). So when Ennis brought the kids to the store he had no idea where Jack was, at least this is how WE see it. I'd have to go back and study the scripts to see if Ang rearranged the chronology here.

Ennis didn't tell many lies, noncommittal for sure. Liar? not many, except "fishin' buddies" which of course they were . . . plus.

Personally IMO even Ennis woulda' been pretty dense to tell that as a fib, it would be very easy to check when all the heifers calved at a nearby ranch. In fact I'd say it might even become common knowledge about town when a ranchers heifers all calve, as there would be a sudden demand for other cowboys, helpers, supplies, etc.

It's been a while since I've watched the movie, so thanks Jackster for the refresher.

I've always felt that Ennis was being honest in that scene, and that the scene was intended to show the divergence in their marriage. Ennis would have preferred a stay-at-home wife, looking after the kids; Alma was always the modern woman, ambitious with her own ideas...someone the passive Monroe was happy to oblige.

Also, if I recall, that scene was almost immediately after the July 4th incident. I think the little subtle look from Ennis gave Alma pause and changed her response quickly. It was meant to show that Alma understood Ennis had a short temper and she was a little afraid of him. After that scene, the one of Ennis lying on the coach on a Saturday night and Alma wanting to go to the church social again emphasized their divergence. Their divorce, with or without Jack, was only a matter of time. Jack's postcard and the kiss in the stairwell only made Alma more determined to leave and Ennis less interested in staying. The exchange in bed about having children was the last straw that broke up a marriage that was already in trouble.

It's not about lies. It's about lack of affection, lack of common interests, lack of compatibility. Jack and Ennis had everything two soul mates have; Ennis and Alma had nothing but a piece of paper and two children. If it weren't for the children, they would have been divorced by the time Jack came through town. That might change the story, too, allowing Ennis to accept the sweet life. Destiny. Can't fight it; can't love it if it were not meant to be. Just gotta stand it, cause you can't fix it.

[perarduaadastra]

I think you just summarised the whole movie.

[lancecowboy]

I think you just summarised the whole movie.

Thanks for the compliment perarduaadastra but really I cannot accept it. Brokeback Mountain is much deeper than words can tell. For all that I said, it was only scratching the surface of the relationship between Ennis and Alma. There is so much more in the movie, between Ennis and Jack, of course, between Ennis and Cassie, between Ennis and Jack's Ma, between Ennis and Junior, and we haven't started with Jack yet.

Nope. The movie is a profound exploration of human relationships, and there ain't no end to it; no summary that can do it justice.

It's a continuing journey, going where no one has gone before. Mixing my tag lines a little bit. 

[rimasworld]

It's been a while since I've watched the movie, so thanks Jackster for the refresher.

I've always felt that Ennis was being honest in that scene, and that the scene was intended to show the divergence in their marriage. Ennis would have preferred a stay-at-home wife, looking after the kids; Alma was always the modern woman, ambitious with her own ideas...someone the passive Monroe was happy to oblige.

Also, if I recall, that scene was almost immediately after the July 4th incident. I think the little subtle look from Ennis gave Alma pause and changed her response quickly. It was meant to show that Alma understood Ennis had a short temper and she was a little afraid of him. After that scene, the one of Ennis lying on the coach on a Saturday night and Alma wanting to go to the church social again emphasized their divergence. Their divorce, with or without Jack, was only a matter of time. Jack's postcard and the kiss in the stairwell only made Alma more determined to leave and Ennis less interested in staying. The exchange in bed about having children was the last straw that broke up a marriage that was already in trouble.

It's not about lies. It's about lack of affection, lack of common interests, lack of compatibility. Jack and Ennis had everything two soul mates have; Ennis and Alma had nothing but a piece of paper and two children. If it weren't for the children, they would have been divorced by the time Jack came through town. That might change the story, too, allowing Ennis to accept the sweet life. Destiny. Can't fight it; can't love it if it were not meant to be. Just gotta stand it, cause you can't fix it.

Yes, Ennis and Alma were not compatible. Ennis married her because he was already committed in what society told him to do.. get married, have kids etc. and it was also a telling scene when he told Jack in the motel that he was "stuck" with what he had there. That said it all. Not once did he say he loved Alma or was happy because he didn't and was not. I think not long after the marriage he didn't really even like her that much. So many people get in that trap because society tells them they must and it just doesn't work.

[lancecowboy]

Yes, Ennis and Alma were not compatible. Ennis married her because he was already committed in what society told him to do.. get married, have kids etc. and it was also a telling scene when he told Jack in the motel that he was "stuck" with what he had there. That said it all. Not once did he say he loved Alma or was happy because he didn't and was not. I think not long after the marriage he didn't really even like her that much. So many people get in that trap because society tells them they must and it just doesn't work.

We are steering off topic, but I agree with everything you said. Your comments remind me of what Coop said to Jimmy in Cold Case's episode "Forever Blue" describing his own parents, "Whatever they had died long ago and they only stay together for the church ...or whatever... We are the lucky ones Jimmy."



Unfortunately, even the lucky ones don't necessarily get to live happily ever after, if they allow their fears, and/or other people's fears, to keep them from living their dream.

...just like this, always... Only if we dare to grasp it with both hands and never let go.

To bring us back to topic, Ennis don't often tell any lies, but the one big one got him into endless troubles. The fact that he couldn't even cover his tracks with the fishing tackle box, shows that he ain't too good at lying, without enough practice. He has always tried to be honest as best he could, even marrying Alma was his way of keeping his word, his promise. But some promises are better broken.

[chowhound]

We are steering off topic, but I agree with everything you said. Your comments remind me of what Coop said to Jimmy in Cold Case's episode "Forever Blue" describing his own parents, "Whatever they had died long ago and they only stay together for the church ...or whatever... We are the lucky ones Jimmy."



Unfortunately, even the lucky ones don't necessarily get to live happily ever after, if they allow their fears, and/or other people's fears, to keep them from living their dream.

...just like this, always... Only if we dare to grasp it with both hands and never let go.

To bring us back to topic, Ennis don't often tell any lies, but the one big one got him into endless troubles. The fact that he couldn't even cover his tracks with the fishing tackle box, shows that he ain't too good at lying, without enough practice. He has always tried to be honest as best he could, even marrying Alma was his way of keeping his word, his promise. But some promises are better broken.

LCB, this is OT but anyway thanks for posting these episodes from Cold Case. It was a show I'd vaguely heard of but never got around to seeing. Maybe it was on a channel I couldn't get. Anyway, the sections you have put together I found very powerful and very moving. When was it aired, do you know? I'm not suggesting direct influence but there are obviously a number of parallels between this story and Jack and Ennis as no doubt has been pointed out in the past. Anyway, thanks for your post. I think I'll have to play it again!

[lancecowboy]

You are welcome, CH. Brokeback Mountain spans such wide swatch of life that we are bound to be touching on different topics as we dig deeper into its meaning.

Here is the thread with the discussion on that episode:

http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=13332.msg967524#msg967524

The interview was from December of 2006 so I believe the episode was ABM (After Brokeback Mountain as oppose to BBM).

[chowhound]

You are welcome, CH. Brokeback Mountain spans such wide swatch of life that we are bound to be touching on different topics as we dig deeper into its meaning.

Here is the thread with the discussion on that episode:

http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=13332.msg967524#msg967524

The interview was from December of 2006 so I believe the episode was ABM (After Brokeback Mountain as oppose to BBM).

Thanks, Lance, for this link. I found it very helpful in placing in context a number of things. However, there's one further thing I have to ask. Was the identity of Coop's murderer revealed in a subsequent episode?  Or, if you'd been following the series, would it have been obvious as the killer's face is clearly seen. Indeed, was it gay bashing or something else?

[lancecowboy]

Thanks, Lance, for this link. I found it very helpful in placing in context a number of things. However, there's one further thing I have to ask. Was the identity of Coop's murderer revealed in a subsequent episode?  Or, if you'd been following the series, would it have been obvious as the killer's face is clearly seen. Indeed, was it gay bashing or something else?

This is getting off topic. I'd be happy to continue discussion in the other thread. You can find the answer to your question there, too.   But meanwhile, try watching the video again. You see the murderer jumping out from behind the pillar. It's the head of the squad or something. One of those on the take, if you recall from the beginning of the episode. Ooops. I gave it away.  Gay bashing is always just an excuse for something else. Similarly racism, sexism, etc. They are all rooted on personal insecurity. Fears have their diverse roots but they all draw from a common cesspool.