Topic: Fourth of July Firework - spoiler

[ethan]

The scene where Ennis stands against the fire-work ridden 4th of July evening sky? I found the shoot was kinda odd.

Did anyone feel the same way? Or rather, what could be Ang's intention if any? 

[tpe]

The scene where Ennis stands against the fire-work ridden 4th of July evening sky? I found the shoot was kinda odd.

Did anyone feel the same way? Or rather, what could be Ang's intention if any? 

Hello ethan.  Yes, I also did mention in an earlier post that I felt that this scene was a reference to some old movie or actor.  It certainly felt that way, with Ledger freezing in that stance for a second, against the backdrop of exploding fireworks.

The screenplay, of course, dwells of the surprise of Alma of seeing a side of her husband that she had never seen before -- his towring rage and anger. 

I also suspect Ledger's peculiar stance was possibly a screen shot that sought to 'celebrate' the image of the American cowboy, as in mainstream 'Marlboro' images...

[ethan]

Hello ethan.  Yes, I also did mention in an earlier post that I felt that this scene was a reference to some old movie or actor.  It certainly felt that way, with Ledger freezing in that stance for a second, against the backdrop of exploding fireworks.

The screenplay, of course, dwells of the surprise of Alma of seeing a side of her husband that she had never seen before -- his towring rage and anger. 

I also suspect Ledger's peculiar stance was possibly a screen shot that sought to 'celebrate' the image of the American cowboy, as in mainstream 'Marlboro' images...

Good morning, tpe. Thanks for the thought. The frozen scene indeed did bring the violent side of Ennis which Alma had never experienced before. I will have to dig through your earlier posts.

I feel there is a connection of *independence* with Ennis as a classic All-American guy who goes his own way completely and stands indepenently even if he "can't support" his wife and children in a level far above poverty. It reminds me of Ennis saying earlier to Jack, "I don't need your money, I'm not in the poor house.'

In anyway, the scene is remarkably subtle.

[tpe]

I feel there is a connection of *independence* with Ennis as a classic All-American guy who goes his own way completely and stands indepenently even if he "can't support" his wife and children in a level far above poverty. It reminds me of Ennis saying earlier to Jack, "I don't need your money, I'm not in the poor house.'

In anyway, the scene is remarkably subtle.

Yes, there is certainly that 'iconic' feel to this image that suggests independence and rugged individualism.  And yes, I did think this still was remarkably subtle and...could you believe this?...sensual!

[Kindred]

To me the scene represented many things.  First, it displayed Ennis' love and protection of his family.  Ironic that he would confront 2 large men in a seemingly fearless manner, and yet his own life was so filled with fear.

It also revealled Ennis' emotional side which often emerged as violent behavior.  We see it when they leave the mountain and he gets into a fight with Jack, we see it at the Thanksgiving kitchen scene with Alma. 

I agree that the final image, that of Ennis in the foreground with the fireworks going off and Alma with the girls in the backdrop, seems familiar.  Something about the pose that Ledger takes seems like I've seen it before.  I'll have to think about it more and report back if I remember.

[ethan]

Yes, there is certainly that 'iconic' feel to this image that suggests independence and rugged individualism.  And yes, I did think this still was remarkably subtle and...could you believe this?...sensual!

"Iconic" is a great word. If there is any poitical statement, I think this scene would be one.

Every day is a new discovery. I think I am due for the 6th viewing. 

[tpe]

To me the scene represented many things.  First, it displayed Ennis' love and protection of his family.  Ironic that he would confront 2 large men in a seemingly fearless manner, and yet his own life was so filled with fear.

It also revealled Ennis' emotional side which often emerged as violent behavior.  We see it when they leave the mountain and he gets into a fight with Jack, we see it at the Thanksgiving kitchen scene with Alma. 

I agree that the final image, that of Ennis in the foreground with the fireworks going off and Alma with the girls in the backdrop, seems familiar.  Something about the pose that Ledger takes seems like I've seen it before.  I'll have to think about it more and report back if I remember.

Thanks Kindred.  And, indeed, the only other scene IMO where his inner rage comes to the forefront is the Thanksgiving scene with Alma. 

[rabjr1]

Another movie, gay romance, happy ending, contrived plot (whole town conspires to get two major characters together-lots of cooking, takes place out west in mountians - Nurse Ratchet sings Great Music.  No soundtrack availabel. Yet.

                    "Big Eden"

There are fireworks in this mivie.  Great scene.  Rent "Big Eden" when the sadness of BBM gets too much. 

another movie with fireworks but just can't remember - great thing about this forum when the memory comes to me at 4 in th emorning there is someone up - (my friends won't take my 4am phone calls)

[tpe]

Another movie, gay romance, happy ending, contrived plot (whole town conspires to get two major characters together-lots of cooking, takes place out west in mountians - Nurse Ratchet sings Great Music.  No soundtrack availabel. Yet.

                    "Big Eden"

There are fireworks in this mivie.  Great scene.  Rent "Big Eden" when the sadness of BBM gets too much. 

Thanks rabjr1  Will do.

another movie with fireworks but just can't remember - great thing about this forum when the memory comes to me at 4 in th emorning there is someone up - (my friends won't take my 4am phone calls)

[CakeSaint]

The fireworks scene is the one scene that left my mouth gaping at the cinematography -- it's just so well done, with the fireworks as a metaphor for Ennis' inner rage exploding to the surface.  I tried to imagine how difficult it would be to time the action to be exactly right.  And then, when Ennis looks back to his family with a little shame for his temper, and Alma is looking back, sheepish and scared -- the shot is beautifully composed, with so many emotions running through it.  It's over so quickly, but it's very powerful.

[CherryCake]

Yea, I agree.  Great shot... it shows us a little more about more about Ennis and Alma..

[cowgirl19]

I love this scene.  Especially the shot where Ennis kicks the guy. Great direction be Ang there!!!  It shows us that no matter what Ennis does....be's a man and protects his family.....he is still very distant from them. 
And it shows us his violent side, but I think that he is only violent b/c he can't express his real feelings so it all bottles up and then he has bursts of violence.  Ennis is really a sweet guy.

[n061857]

Ditto to everything that has been said already.  Some wonderful points.   That image did remind me of another.  Haven't seen Big Eden.  But I just love that image.  A powerful man who has just protected his loved ones standing with such strength in front of those fireworks!  Awesome!

[matsuki33]

  yup that is so true nancy

[brokie007]

I don't know if there's already a thread about the 4th of July scene where Ennis gets in a fight.....but please can someone give me their opinion on why do you think this scene was included.  It's one of the best shots...awesome...when the fireworks are going off behind Ennis -  I just love the way it looks....it's like a postcard.  But again, about the scene, and it's meaning.....what does it represent? What does it say?     I have many different thoughts and ideas on it but can't put them in writing.....so I'd like to get more opinions on this one....and see if what I'm thinking is the same...   

[tpe]

The screenplay seems to indicate that it was in this scene that Alma first caught a glimpse of another facet of Ennis that she had never seen before: Ennis's pent-up inner rage.  This was what surprised Alma most of all.  It shows the amount of anger that Ennis had inside of him.  This is my opinion.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I think so too.  If you look closely, not only does Alma have a look that combines puzzlement and perhaps a little fear, Ennis looks at her as if maybe he should explain himself.  It was obvious he had never shown that side of him in front of Alma before.

[welshwitch]

It also relates to the Thanksgiving scene - the great iconic festivals of America are times when Ennis is excluded or excludes himself. Suggests to me that he is also an outsider in other  ways - he's not part of his family, in fact he's an unknown quantity as Alma is ignorant of his violent side as she's ignorant of his relationship with Jack. His passions are a mystery to her, as he is.   

And public occasions seem to lead to complications for both men - the rodeo and Thnaksgiving for Jack, the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving for Ennis. There's a sense of dislocation about the two of them, beause their lives have been dislocated by their love for each other, a love that their society can;t accommodate.

[tpe]

I think so too.  If you look closely, not only does Alma have a look that combines puzzlement and perhaps a little fear, Ennis looks at her as if maybe he should explain himself.  It was obvious he had never shown that side of him in front of Alma before.

This is a better and more direct way to put it.

And I agree with ww: this scene is a pendant to the later and more intense Thanksgiving scene between Ennis and Alma.

[jesseanne21]

The scene where Ennis stands against the fire-work ridden 4th of July evening sky? I found the shoot was kinda odd.

Did anyone feel the same way? Or rather, what could be Ang's intention if any? 

I don't know if there's already a thread about the 4th of July scene where Ennis gets in a fight.....but please can someone give me their opinion on why do you think this scene was included.  It's one of the best shots...awesome...when the fireworks are going off behind Ennis -  I just love the way it looks....it's like a postcard.  But again, about the scene, and it's meaning.....what does it represent? What does it say?   :-\  I have many different thoughts and ideas on it but can't put them in writing.....so I'd like to get more opinions on this one....and see if what I'm thinking is the same...   

I have always wondered why Ang Lee included this scene in the movie...it's not in the short story.

After thinking about it (sorry, but I overanalyze everything) I think Ang wanted to show that on THE OUTSIDE Ennis was the perfect American cowboy:  masculine, strong, a husband, a father, a protector (with fireworks going off behind him, no less).  On the outside, Ennis looked like what he wanted to be.  And, Ennis tried really hard to be the image he projected.

[welshwitch]

Maybe it's also there to show what one type of man thinks/says about women - the way the bikers talk about " pussy" and where to find it is reductive and crude. There's a contrast with even Ennis and Alma, and certainly with Jack and Lureen in the car, but a much greater contrast with Jack and Ennis, particularly in the SNIT mood.

It's a sort of sideways look at two men who might be considered "normal" and a criticism of that way of seeing the opposite sex.

[ethan]

It also relates to the Thanksgiving scene - the great iconic festivals of America are times when Ennis is excluded or excludes himself. Suggests to me that he is also an outsider in other  ways - he's not part of his family, in fact he's an unknown quantity as Alma is ignorant of his violent side as she's ignorant of his relationship with Jack. His passions are a mystery to her, as he is.   

And public occasions seem to lead to complications for both men - the rodeo and Thnaksgiving for Jack, the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving for Ennis. There's a sense of dislocation about the two of them, beause their lives have been dislocated by their love for each other, a love that their society can;t accommodate.

I really like this one. Thanks, welshwitch. What a movie BBM is.

[tpe]

It's a sort of sideways look at two men who might be considered "normal" and a criticism of that way of seeing the opposite sex.

And I do think this is also an interesting thought.

[welshwitch]

You can contrast this whole macho thing with the bikers and the effect it has on Alma  - she's clearly frightened, maybe repelled, by this aspect of Ennis - with the scenes between Jack and Ennis on the mountain, specially the SNIT, where real men don't so much eat quiche as behave with tenderness and gentleness; this is presented as a much more appealing model of male behavior than that of the bikers or Ennis's response to them.

[tpe]

You can contrast this whole macho thing with the bikers and the effect it has on Alma  - she's clearly frightened, maybe repelled, by this aspect of Ennis - with the scenes between Jack and Ennis on the mountain, specially the SNIT, where real men don't so much eat quiche as behave with tenderness and gentleness; this is presented as a much more appealing model of male behavior than that of the bikers or Ennis's response to them.

I do think that this suggestion is quite plausible. 

Ennis was certainly disgusted by the behavior of the 2 bikers.  Perhaps there was an intentional counterpoint here.

The fireworks and Ennis's stance has always fascinated me.  In older threads, I wondered whether it is a reference to some other movie.  But I think it was more a symbolic reference to Ennis's inner rage boiling up in that scenes, as well as a suggestion of heroism.

[welshwitch]

And the rockets are both beautiful and dangerous, and transient too - they remind me of Friar Lawrence in "R and J" when he says the love of Romeo is "too rash, too unadvised, too sudden/Too like the lightning which doth cease to be/Ere one can say it lightens."  A parallel with Ennis's love for Jack, which erupts as violently, and a contrast with Jack's love for Ennis, which never ceases

[tpe]

And the rockets are both beautiful and dangerous, and transient too - they remind me of Friar Lawrence in "R and J" when he says the love of Romeo is "too rash, too unadvised, too sudden/Too like the lightning which doth cease to be/Ere one can say it lightens."  A parallel with Ennis's love for Jack, which erupts as violently, and a contrast with Jack's love for Ennis, which never ceases

The symbol is quite apt when applied to the runion scene, no?  Again, it shows all the pent-up emotions stored inside Ennis.  Ennis is indeed "slow to anger", and perhaps slow to show passionate love; but when he does show either one, it is volcanic.

[welshwitch]

And fireworks may be an apt symbol of Jack, who erupts into Ennis's mundane existence, illuminates it brilliantly for a short time, then disappears.

[greenfrog]

And fireworks may be an apt symbol of Jack, who erupts into Ennis's mundane existence, illuminates it brilliantly for a short time, then disappears.

That's a great way of describing it . . . Sad, but great  :\'( :\'( :\'(