Topic: Jack, a player??? No.

[dalemidex]

But what's up with the guy that Jack chose in Mexico?  He bore no resemblance to Ennis. If you believe the top/bottom philosophy that some do about Jack being the "catcher" in the relationship, then was that what he was looking for in the Mexican guy?  The trick was a little soft - voice, appearance, etc.  I was disappointed in Jack.  It didn't fit the paradigm, at least in my mind, of what he had with Ennis.

I'm not convinced about the top/bottom dynamic-sure it must have been a factor at first, but I think over 20 years Ennis may have taken a walk on the wild side.  As far as Jack going for the Mexican hustler, I don't think it mattered who was doing what. It was all about getting some dick.  I think most of us have been there at some point.  Titus.

Remember, too, that we see exactly one sex scene...AND how believable would it have been if the tent scene roles were reversed?  Who knows what happened down the road with those two.  We only saw an initial glimpse.

As for the Mexican hustler, I think the one he chose was closer to the physical character of Ennis than the others we saw.  Certainly not an Ennis in the bunch, but others struck me as even less like him....notably shorter, or more boyish, etc.

Jack went to Mexico in the dubious, desperate hope that sex would fill the hole just ripped in in his heart by love.  That none of the hustlers were good physical substitutes for Ennis only punctuates the sad inadequacy.

[cara1158]

I've been wondering:  Do you think Jack (knew he) was gay before meeting Ennis? Do you think he had had other lovers before?  I had not thought so after my one viewing; but the more I think about it I wonder, was he checking out Ennis from the very first meeting?  And the first tent scene (I think it's funny we refer to it that way), when he pulled Ennis' arm over him, it was as if he was doing it in his sleep, very naturally.  He always seemed very calm about his feelings for Ennis, certainly never tortured the way Ennis felt for him. 

And as far as Jack being a "player" I don't think so at all.  I think maybe when he was younger, during those first few years before the reunion, he was sowing his oats, as young men often do.  But once he reunited with Ennis, that was it, that was his one true love.  Anyone else--Mexico, Randall, whoever--they were just substitutes, stand-ins for the one he really wanted but could not have.

Cara

[Toadily]

I think Proulx implies in the story that Jack had experiences before.  Ennis not.
I don't think Jack knew he was gay, but acted on instinct (note the scene with
the rodeo clown, he just acted on his feelings to pick the guy up...)  IN the end
he knew.

[Russianman]

The thing with Jack, he wants the love and the sex...he beleives he can get both from Ennis. I know that he knows Ennis loves him, but somehow it isn't enough.  Totally wonderful, absolutely tragic, classically heartbreaking.  :'(

Great comment, Tom! Jack is not a player. He simply wants to share life with Ennis whom he loves. If we ask Jack:" What would you prefer - 20 years with rare dates twice or 3 times a year or 2 years living together with Ennis day by day savouring your every moment together?" I think his answre is obvious.

[xvbbJ]

"I have had a discussion with my cousin about Jack.  In her opinion jack was just a player becasue of the Mexico scene and she feels he was doing every body.  But my feeling is that he was trying to fill the need of not having Enis in his life and he was just lonely.  Any thoughts?"

Jack a player? No. He might've had many opportunities as he's the sort of guy who needs men in his life (more so than Ennis)... In my opinion the prostitutes of Mexico were surely of no importance (they're getting paid after all, and that's not what being a player is about, imo, and then he had some other guys like Randall, I assume there might have been more of the same kind).

[welshwitch]

IMO Jack isn't a player. He loves Ennis totally, but realises that Ennis is never going to agree to live with him.  Going to Mexico, like considering going "fishing" with Randalli, is just a poor substitute and an acknowldgement that he has to find sex, if not love, where he can. This doesn't impinge on his love for Ennis, which is bed-rock, firm, unyielding and eternal. And you're right, he looks grimly unexpressive both when he walks off with the Mexican and when he's listening to Randall - he doen't make eye-contact with either, but he does with Ennis -,maybe he'd rather not face ( literally and metaphorically) what he's doing. Ennis behaves similarly with Cassie - he finds it hard to look at her ands rarely smiles.Hisr eyes, like Jack's, want only to meet those of his other half.

[NoReins]

Each of the times we see Jack being unfaithful, like in Mexico as has been said before, he looks like he is just going throught the motions, there is no joy in his face. When Randall is sitting on the bench with him outside the dance, watch Jack's face....it's like OK then lets....no real passion.

Compare this to the reunion scene, unadulterated joy. It makes my heart soar for them.  :D

When they meet down by the river and Jack is waiting, watch first his face as Ennis pulls up and then Ennis's face as he gets out the truck and looks at Jack. These boys are in love.

The Acting skills of Jake and Heath here is wonderful. It is a story but here those joyous expressions make me totally and utterly believe that these two men are in love. I forget at these two wonderous parts of this story that I am watching a movie.

The thing with Jack, he wants the love and the sex...he beleives he can get both from Ennis. I know that he knows Ennis loves him, but somehow it isn't enough.  Totally wonderful, absolutely tragic, classically heartbreaking.  :'(

Tom

IMO Jack isn't a player. He loves Ennis totally, but realises that Ennis is never going to agree to live with him.  Going to Mexico, like considering going "fishing" with Randalli, is just a poor substitute and an acknowldgement that he has to find sex, if not love, where he can. This doesn't impinge on his love for Ennis, which is bed-rock, firm, unyielding and eternal. And you're right, he looks grimly unexpressive both when he walks off with the Mexican and when he's listening to Randall - he doen't make eye-contact with either, but he does with Ennis - maybe he'd rather not face ( literally and metaphorically) what he's doing. Ennis behaves similarly with Cassie - he finds it hard to look at her ands rarely smiles. His eyes, like Jack's, want only to meet those of his other half.

Tom and welshwitch - you managed to sum up between you exactly my thoughts on this. Thank you!

[stacp]

"I have had a discussion with my cousin about Jack.  In her opinion jack was just a player becasue of the Mexico scene and she feels he was doing every body.  But my feeling is that he was trying to fill the need of not having Enis in his life and he was just lonely.  Any thoughts?"

Jack a player? No. He might've had many opportunities as he's the sort of guy who needs men in his life (more so than Ennis)... In my opinion the prostitutes of Mexico were surely of no importance (they're getting paid after all, and that's not what being a player is about, imo, and then he had some other guys like Randall, I assume there might have been more of the same kind).

I had a similar conversation with my sister who saw the movie.  Her reaction to the love story was "well, that Jack was certainly a player, wasn't he?"  She said she thought it was clear Jack was making plans to be with Randall.  Now I love me some Jack Twist, so I didn't want to have to hurt my sister!     I honestly don't think Jack went looking for some strange any chance he got.  I assumed that after the reunion, he stayed loyal to Ennis (as far as men) until after the divorce scene where Ennis sent him home heartbroken.  I felt so bad for Jack; I wanted to punch Ennis in the mouth for hurting Jack like he did.  I almost couldn't blame Jack for looking for love in all the wrong places.  I think Jack just got lonely over the years; desperate to be true to himself, even for a moment.  Like he said to Ennis he needed it but hardly ever got it.  So, maybe he hooked up with Randall for sex.  Still doesn't make him a player to me.  A player is someone who loves them and leaves them, no emotional attachments.  Jack sure wasn't a player with Ennis; he loved that man with his whole heart and soul.

[CherryCake]

"I have had a discussion with my cousin about Jack.  In her opinion jack was just a player becasue of the Mexico scene and she feels he was doing every body.  But my feeling is that he was trying to fill the need of not having Enis in his life and he was just lonely.  Any thoughts?"

Jack a player? No. He might've had many opportunities as he's the sort of guy who needs men in his life (more so than Ennis)... In my opinion the prostitutes of Mexico were surely of no importance (they're getting paid after all, and that's not what being a player is about, imo, and then he had some other guys like Randall, I assume there might have been more of the same kind).

I had a similar conversation with my sister who saw the movie.  Her reaction to the love story was "well, that Jack was certainly a player, wasn't he?"  She said she thought it was clear Jack was making plans to be with Randall.  Now I love me some Jack Twist, so I didn't want to have to hurt my sister!     I honestly don't think Jack went looking for some strange any chance he got.  I assumed that after the reunion, he stayed loyal to Ennis (as far as men) until after the divorce scene where Ennis sent him home heartbroken.  I felt so bad for Jack; I wanted to punch Ennis in the mouth for hurting Jack like he did.  I almost couldn't blame Jack for looking for love in all the wrong places.  I think Jack just got lonely over the years; desperate to be true to himself, even for a moment.  Like he said to Ennis he needed it but hardly ever got it.  So, maybe he hooked up with Randall for sex.  Still doesn't make him a player to me.  A player is someone who loves them and leaves them, no emotional attachments.  Jack sure wasn't a player with Ennis; he loved that man with his whole heart and soul.

No, I wouldn't call Jack a player by any means.. it was nearly 20 years time between the first time  he meets Ennis and when he meets Randall.

But we know Jack is no angel tho.  I suspect he was getting what he could, albiet not much for the time and place, and he was in heaven when he finally got some of Ennis.  Let's face it.  Jack went after Ennis... at first subtley, then boldly.  Good for him.

[Sunflower79]

I would defently agree that Jack wasn't angel or a saint..he had sex with other men in my opinion to fill the void when he coudln't be with Ennis..after feeling rejected so many times those other men were just spaces filling up a void for him. I think the other men were just for sex and thats it. With Ennis he felt love, compassion, friendship and a real sense of comfort and intimacy. The other men he didnt have that and probally only wanted that special intimacy with Ennis the one man he ever really loved and wanted to be with.

[donnaread]

I never felt Jack was a player, he was just trying to fill the empty hole in his soul.  There's also the fact that Jack obviously had a much higher sex drive than Ennis did.  Ennis struck me as almost being asexual, except when he was with Jack.  Ennis had feelings for Jack, both emotionally and physically that he never had with anyone else.  I never even felt that it was sex that drew Ennis to Jack.  In spite of Ennis refusing to be with Jack on a permanent basis, I think that Jack's soul spoke to Ennis and drew him in, in spite of himself.  To me, sex for Ennis was just a way to be closer to Jack, not even a real need, in and of itself.  In spite of the passion in their reunion scene, I think sex was secondary to Ennis.  He certainly never seemed to get much out of it with Alma or Cassie...only with Jack did he feel any sexual need at all.  Sorry, got a little OT.  I think of one thing, and it keeps rolling into other thoughts.  Can't seem to stop myself, lol. 

[welshwitch]

That's all true, Donnaread, and in my experience one can be intensely sexual with one person and far less so, if at all, with another. I think Jack was just the one for Ennis, not just physically but as a friend and someone with whom he didn't have to pretend, and more importantly with whom he could laugh and joke, something he didn't do with anyone else. Evenif passion fades, liking and understanding and friendship last; Ennis's for Jack might have done so, but I'm not so sure about Jack. I don't think he's a player, just someone who needs sex far more than Ennis does, and who in every way, not just sexual, is unwilling to be stoical, so he's not stoical about Ennis's absence but tries to fill it, even when he knows this won't give him what he wants. Jack is much more egotistical than Ennis, and much more prone to think he's entitled to whatever - makes him much more "modern" in my eyes.

[donnaread]

. Jack is much more egotistical than Ennis, and much more prone to think he's entitled to whatever - makes him much more "modern" in my eyes.

I don't think Jack is egotistical exactly.  He is just someone who is not willing to accept the status-quo.  He goes after what he wants...Ennis just accepts things..."standing it" instead of trying to "fix it".  Jack is always trying to "fix it" instead of "standing it".

Donna

[xvbbJ]

IMO Jack isn't a player. He loves Ennis totally, but realises that Ennis is never going to agree to live with him.  Going to Mexico, like considering going "fishing" with Randalli, is just a poor substitute and an acknowldgement that he has to find sex, if not love, where he can.

Well, the thing is, I'm sure Jack had other reasons for going to Mexico, maybe even sexual ones played into it, though imo it's not the main reason, he's kinda looking down on the prostitutes and you see more anger than anything else on his face when he goes to them (the time he leaves Ennis and drives to Mexico). But it's a different thing with Randall... Of course nobody can be a substitute for Ennis, still, we can't forget that Randall was the guy Jack told his parents about, the one he wanted to live with on a ranch... So, it's not just sex with Randall.

[xvbbJ]

"I almost couldn't blame Jack for looking for love in all the wrong places.  I think Jack just got lonely over the years; desperate to be true to himself, even for a moment.  Like he said to Ennis he needed it but hardly ever got it.  So, maybe he hooked up with Randall for sex.  Still doesn't make him a player to me."

Hmm, wrong from an Ennis/Jack love story/one true pairing point of view - but else? (Of course, Randall is kinda the wrong place  in a sense as the liaison with him gets him killed eventually (in the movie, haven't read the short story yet)but maybe not from an emotional pov)... He might have hooked up with Randall for sex, but I'm not so sure about that - I'm one of those thinking he might've felt more for Randall than Ennis/Jack die hard fans want to credit him for... The Mexicans are of course out of question, it's clear Jack doesn't feel much for them, well not anything you would call an attachment to a (non-prositute) short- or long term partner, and they're just some abnormal distraction he wouldn't wanna confront in the light of day.

[xvbbJ]

I don't think he's a player, just someone who needs sex far more than Ennis does, and who in every way, not just sexual, is unwilling to be stoical, so he's not stoical about Ennis's absence but tries to fill it, even when he knows this won't give him what he wants. Jack is much more egotistical than Ennis, and much more prone to think he's entitled to whatever - makes him much more "modern" in my eyes.

Hm, an intersting view of Jack...

[welshwitch]

What I was playing with was the idea expressed in some reviews, etc, that Ennis with his taciturnity and stoicism represents the old West, while Jack represents the new, ready to change, compromise, move on, but underneath still wanting what made the old West what it was. In other words he's the modern neurotic, dissatisfied and restless - while Jack is the old world, less demanding and prepared to settle for what he can get. Or is this pushing it too far?