Topic: Jack - "You and Alma, that's a life?"

[welshwitch]

If you're the third in a triangle, you have a relationship with one person, who in turn has a somewhat similar relationship with another person. If you're the pig in the middle, you can just about cope but not when the two others suddenly come face to face.
If you're one of the other two, you either don't know about the other relationship, or if like Jack you do you have a tendency to discount it - "Oh, she doesn't really matter to him, I'm the really important one." Then you come up against the hard evidence, as Jack does, the wife and the two babies and the home made together and you're on the outside looking in. You see the person you think loves you looking awkward and embarrassed and not knowing how to behave in front of the two of you, and at that point all you want is to get him away and have him to yourself. You want to annihilate the third party. When she's not there, you can do so mentally at least.

Jack meets Alma just that once; next day he stays down by the pick-up, because although he's going to get Ennis to himself for a few days, this is where and to whom Ennis will return and he doesn't want to see her. Later all he wants to hear is Ennis saying that she doesn't matter to him as Jack does, but Ennis, torn between the two, can't be disloyal because he feels  guilty and so defends Alma against Jack's implied criticism - and Jack thinks that means Ennis cares less for him than for Alma.

It's an impossible situation, as anyone who's ever been in it will know.

[tpe]

Ennis clearly wanted to set apart his life with Alma and his other "life" with Jack.  Although I am sure Jack also found it better that he not have any further contact with Alma, I am sure that Ennis also preferred it this way.  It is clear that his lame excuse "He's from Texas..." speaks of his not wanting to give any opening for Alma and Jack to meet again. 

It would seem then that Ennis considered 2 lives: a life with Alma for everyone in society to see, and a more interior, hidden life with Jack. 

There is no doubt in my mind which of the 2 he preferred, but his life with Alma served a purpose -- it certainly helped in his mind provide cover for the interior life with Jack.

[liketheyallknow]

Ennis clearly wanted to set apart his life with Alma and his other "life" with Jack.  Although I am sure Jack also found it better that he not have any further contact with Alma, I am sure that Ennis also preferred it this way.  It is clear that his lame excuse "He's from Texas..." speaks of his not wanting to give any opening for Alma and Jack to meet again. 

It would seem then that Ennis considered 2 lives: a life with Alma for everyone in society to see, and a more interior, hidden life with Jack. 

There is no doubt in my mind which of the 2 he preferred, but his life with Alma served a purpose -- it certainly helped in his mind provide cover for the interior life with Jack.

Why did he not open up to Jack fully in this hidden interior life? With Alma I could understand - that was a fake life. He had nothing to loose by being 'himself' with Jack. I can't work this out - was it just that Ennis being Ennis with all his internal angst, would never be truly open with anyone? Jack just got closer than anyone else. 

When I first saw the film, before reading the screenplay, I thought Jack said 'You and Alma, thats a lie'.  A Freudian slip in my hearing...

[manhattangirl]

For me, Ennis's interior life was slowly seeping into his exterior life with Alma in the most intimate way.  He lived with Alma but they didn't have a life either.   He worked and barely supported them, she took a job,  he stayed home and watch TV, and never took her out, or on a trip.  And in the most intimate moments, his sexual needs was something she didn't want or liked. 

Alma resentment grew and soon ended the sham of their marriage.  Jack asked the right question in the long run, "You and Alma, that's a life?".

[tpe]

Why did he not open up to Jack fully in this hidden interior life? With Alma I could understand - that was a fake life. He had nothing to loose by being 'himself' with Jack. I can't work this out - was it just that Ennis being Ennis with all his internal angst, would never be truly open with anyone? Jack just got closer than anyone else. 

When I first saw the film, before reading the screenplay, I thought Jack said 'You and Alma, thats a lie'.  A Freudian slip in my hearing...

I think he did open up in that most important thing -- I think Jack knew that Ennis loved him.  Even in the end, when Jack had lost all hope of living a life with Ennis -- when he was ready to move on -- he still probably felt that their love was intact.  And I don't doubt this.

I do think he was pretty much himself with jack, as much as he was "himself" with himself, if you know what I mean.  The problem with Ennis is that he was deeply conflicted.  There were things about him that he himself probably didn't know -- and Jack helped him see through it all, I guess, which is why Ennis loved him.

I thus view Ennis's inner self as one of deep contradictions and divisions.  Ennis did not hide it, and Jack certainly saw it, and loved him all the more.


 

[tpe]

For me, Ennis's interior life was slowly seeping into his exterior life with Alma in the most intimate way.  He lived with Alma but they didn't have a life either.   He worked and barely supported them, she took a job,  he stayed home and watch TV, and never took her out, or on a trip.  And in the most intimate moments, his sexual needs was something she didn't want or liked. 

Alma resentment grew and soon ended the sham of their marriage.  Jack asked the right question in the long run, "You and Alma, that's a life?".

After the reunion, Ennis's inner contractions certainly helped corrode his marriage with Alma.   His carelessness with Alma when it came to the fishing trips seem to indicate a part of himself wanting to be rid of all pretenses -- a sort of "let me be caught and be damned for it" type of mentality.

 

[lightnin flat]

Remember too Jack is the man ahead of his time. He knows what they could have together in a whole and complete way.  Ennis can't even entertain the idea of a life with Jack.  Jack can see what a partnership they would have. 

     Yes i agree with you that jack is ahead of his time he was willing to share ennis with the world .     
      something i dont think a lot of people would of done in their position back in 63.     
         I think jack just looked around  ennis,s place when they met up after 4 years and saw for himself the apartment wasnt much and his beat up old truck ,that things perhaps wernt that good.

  Also one major thing to bring jack to this conclusion would surely be how ennis couldnt wait to be with him
   jack alredy knowing they would spend the night togther by ennis saying probaly wont get back tonite we get to drinking and talking and all.
                             ennis wasnt much of a talker so i dont think he told jack much.     
       

[myprivatejack]

I have always thought that this question is a little,or not so little,ambivalent one;on one side,Jack is implying that this was not "life"-in the sense of a "normally" loving life with the one he loved-because Ennis could really love Alma the way a husband loves his wife,the person he has chosen to live his life with.Somehow,he's saying that he knows,perhaps better than Ennis himself,that his true love isn't Alma,but Jack; and that the image of a perfect life only could be fulfilled with him in Ennis soul...
But,on the other side,I've always found a certain touch of selfishness too in the implication that living with him was a real wonderful life for Ennis; letting aside sentimental aspects,he knew for sure,even then,that life would be hard for both of them.Not only for the fears and doubts they must face to,the struggle they should have day after day for their love before society; but also life would be hard because no one of them was prepared enough as to live a life without working,economical and social problems.So,the look of a paradise in Earth wasn't so perfect as we can deduce from Jack's question; what's your opinion about this?.

[LuvJackNasty]

I think it was more of Jack knowing how it was to be married with a child and knowing that's not the life for him; that the "norm" isn't enough to sustain him. And him more projecting that onto Ennis. I mean, if he was unsure if Ennis still cared about him, that reunion kiss and motel stay sure cleared things up.  I think it was just his way of asking "How can you stay with her when this is clearly who you are? When this is what makes you happy?" Something to that effect. Or maybe How is that any kind of life when you're lying, mosty to yourself and can't be who you really are?

[tpe]

Revisiting this topic after some time, I now see the "life" that Jack referred to as a life without pretense.  I meant he implied an honest life, and Ennis's response and defense of Alma would seem to indicate that in his yes, the dishonesty cannot be laid on Alma's feet.

Nonetheless, they didn't realize that Alma did know or start to know.  Therefore, she was as guilty of dishonesty and pretense as both of them...

[manhattangirl]

Revisiting this topic after some time, I now see the "life" that Jack referred to as a life without pretense.  I meant he implied an honest life, and Ennis's response and defense of Alma would seem to indicate that in his yes, the dishonesty cannot be laid on Alma's feet.

Nonetheless, they didn't realize that Alma did know or start to know.  Therefore, she was as guilty of dishonesty and pretense as both of them...

To live an honest life, I've always thought it laid at Ennis's feet, which Alma was caught in the wake, it was up to Ennis and Ennis only to come clean.  Jack always lived an honest life, and in the end, Ennis had to honor it.

[tpe]

Jack also tied his living an honest life with a life with Ennis.  I am sure that this is partly why he resented the marriage with Alma.  It somehow impeded not only his own life, but Ennis's as well.  Jack was probably correct in thinking that the marriage was a sham -- but he must have also realized that Ennis's love for his daughters was genuine, even though he used it as a smokescreen to hide from himself...

[aintfoolin]

 I don't feel any one of them were truly being honest with themselves. Jack and Alma can be seen as *enablers* of Ennis's dishonesty with himself. Alma continues to stay with him , fullfilling her "wifely duties" knowing all along that Ennis is not fully committed to her, while Jack continues to pursue Ennis hoping that someday Ennis will fully commit to him. Meanwhile all are living halflives, while telling themselves their own feelings  , in the end will be sufficient to seal the deal. The mistaken idea that if * if I show my love for him enough* that that somehow will cause Ennis to drop all his fears, anxieties  and commit his love to either one is for nil.  Imo , even if Jack and Alma confronted each other over Ennis  and fight all day,, it's still Ennis who has to make the choice. MG is right in the sense that the ball is always in Enni's court. It is he and he alone who holds the cards to move this thing in one direction or the other. MHO.

[tpe]

I sometimes sympathize with Alma, in that I think Ennis made her dishonest. The fact that he refused to force the issue of Jack in their marriage and his wanting some kind of silent compromise forced Alma to do the same, if only for the sake of the marriage that she certainly treasured before the breaking of trust.  I think that she was almost reasy to confront Ennis about all this -- witness her insistence that Jack have some cofee, or her assumption that she goes out with them even after she sees them kiss.  It is as if Alma wanted everything to break out, but Ennis made sure that the 2 worlds remained apart...