Topic: The Significance of Mexico

[NoReins]

You know, Patriot, just after I posted my reply I actually remembered you saying that before but I had a meeting to go to so I couldn't change my post - you're right, of course.

[xvbbJ]

Hi!!

So, on to my next question.  The significance of Mexico?

Did Jack go there because he longed for the touch of Ennis and that wasn't happening because Ennis had the girls. You know, as if to say "I want Ennis, but since I can't have that right now, I've got to have my fix, so I'm going to Mexico."  Or do you think it's more deep than that. As if he longed for Ennis so bad and had it in his mind that they were going to be together now that the divorce was final. When Ennis couldn't get away, Jack had so much frustration, pent up and otherwise, that he needed his release and he would find a substitute for Ennis in Mexico. 

My opinion is that Jack needed Ennis, bad. And if he couldn't have him, he needed to feel something with another man, to at least fulfull his desire to be with Ennis.

Any thoughts on this one?

Ann

Imo, there's no need for a physical release or something like that in Jack, I think he only yearns for one release - he wants to be free of Ennis. Deciding to go to Mexico Jack wanted to end that which he had with Ennis. You see it in his face when he leaves Ennis, there's a lot of anger, no it's not any physical arousal he needs to attend to - he couldn't care less for the many prostitutes he must have indulged in, or the one right after that weekend - it's anger. We all know that feeling, trying to wash away someone with whatever we get our hands on. Sometimes the more insignificant the "soap" the better. The prostitute was not a substitute for Ennis - how could he? - but a cheap "soap", trying to get Ennis out of his mind. Like there must have been so many attempts to be free of ennis in Jack's life, even more serious ones, like Randall. And every time the tryst with these prostitutes or rather peripheral characters (like Randall) ended - there was Ennis.

[coguaro]

We know from the short story that Jack had some other man relations other then Ennis; I mean that Jack had a very different attitude regarding sex.
In the specific case of Mexico I think that Jack reacted not only because of his sex need but also because he felt to be unjustly  considered from Ennis. After crying in the car he seems to have a pride gesture and a severe look drying up his tears.

On my opinion sex encounter in Mexico have a different significance in the story compared to the sex between Ennis and Jack because it is described as something which happens in the darkness not in the light of the sun (as in Brokeback mountain!). That difference is important to emphasize sex as a pleasure act (maybe a disheartened kind of sex) and sex as love act...

[jerasjr]

To me the significance of Mexico is that it was exotic... having grown up at that time, travelling from WI to MN was exotic.  Travelling from WI to Mexico would have been a dream.  Believe it would have been a dream for Ennis too - it is another way of emphasizing their different life experiences as the years passed.  Jack was going to Mexico to be as far from Ennis as he could be at that heart-breaking time and he did not want to go home to Lureen.  He wanted to be away from both.  He was fleeing the reality that he might not have what he wanted.  Whether he travelled to Mexico seeking sex is another question - I kinda think not, but when it did happen, it validated Jack at a time when he needed validation as a human.  Maybe I'm giving Jack too much credit, but think that underneath his outgoing side was one that hurt every bit as Ennis.

[xvbbJ]

Can a prostitute validate anything in someone other than giving you a good feeling because of the power of being able to buy his/her body and insincere attentions...? Jack was using whomever's body, I don't think he was looking for validation as a human in those trysts. Imo, he must have felt contempt for the "bodies", he was looking for distraction there not the real human warmth he had with Ennis... Nobody/nothing could be a substitue for Ennis, but I imagine once in a while he must've felt some singleminded euphoria, forgetting Ennis for some moments, maybe with Randall. I really would've wished to see what would've become of Jack and Randall - would they have managed to build a life for themselves, a happy life, or would Ennis have come back to haunt Jack after a while? We'll never know...

[jerasjr]

At times, think that we are ascribing attibutes to Jack or Ennis that would be foreign to their limited areas of experience.  Keep telling myself, keep it simple, because that is the type of life they lead, though Jack's expanded as the years passed.  Jack loves Ennis, Jack wants to be with Ennis, Jack feels he is rejected.  Jack goes away from Ennis to Mexico.  This is where I would say that Jack was not looking for sex - know that in my own experience after being rejected, sex is the last thing on my mind.  Given some time to reflect, yes Jack could have gone with the sole purpose of finding a sexual partner.  Don't think he left Ennis with the thought - Ennis doesn't want me, so I'm gonna go to Mexico to f..k another guy.  Realistically he could have found someone much closer, and still not be close to either Ennis or Lureen.

[jerasjr]

xvbbj, don't you think that most people have used another human for sex as a validation of their own sexuality, and I'm not speaking of prostitutes - so a prostitute you have to pay, a one-night-stand you don't, a casual acquaintance you don't.  May be a jaded view, but think it is also valid.  Jack was so emotionally tied with Ennis, that he used the one with the least emotional ocmplications. 
Forget Randall, don't think he played any more important part in Jack's life than a prostitute... that is where Jack would have been using someone to mimic what he had with Ennis.

[TJ]

"Did he really threaten to kill Jack if he as cheating on him and he found out? Or did he feel that by the time he found out for certain that Jack actually did those things, Jack would have been killed by another person? I think it was the latter. It was almost Ennis was expecting it to happen to Jack and that is why he jumped to conclusions twice about "the tire iron."'

But Jack seemed to think Ennis threatened to kill him.  Jack said, "Measure the f**kin' short leash you keep me on, then ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get."

What was the second time Ennis jumped to conclusions about "the tire iron" ?

What Ennis said was more like what sounded like an indirect threat of murder; but, Ennis did not exactly say he would kill Jack.

The first time about "the tire iron" was when Lureen talked in a rather cold tone of voice to Ennis on the phone about the "accident."

The 2nd time was when Ennis was at the Twist place when Mr. Twist said, "Then, this spring he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas. He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So he says. But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass."

Ennis thought immediately after hearing that was, "So now he knew it had been the tire iron."

Ennis assumes that Jack's relationship with the ranch neighbor (whom we have never heard of in the book) is what got Jack killed and it was with "the tire iron."

[xvbbJ]

I can see that - using a one-night-stand or a casual acquaintance or maybe even a longer relationship without love as a validation of their own sexuality or attractivity. Or maybe just for distraction. I guess there are many reasons why people engage in these trysts, and sometimes sexuality or any emotional ties aren't the driving force.

Jack was so emotionally tied with Ennis, that he used the one with the least emotional ocmplications.

Oh yea, I can definitely see that. As for Randall, I don't think Jack ever wanted to live on a ranch with some prostitutes, but he wanted to do that with Randall - at least that's what I heard in the movie (haven't read the short story yet)...

[NoReins]

I'm not convinced that Jack ever really intended to live with Randall - significantly, his father says "he used to talk about moving up here with Ennis del Mar...then this spring he's got another one gonna move up here" (these may not be the exact words but they're close enough) The first phrase suggests that Jack spoke about Ennis more than once - maybe every time he visited his parents from 1963 onwards - while the second suggests to me that he only mentioned Randall (and possibly not by name?) once. Now I know this could be because he died and never got another chance to mention the other man, but the fact that his father says "but like all Jack's ideas, it never came to pass" doesn't really indicate that.

Am I making any sense?

[xvbbJ]

I think that Jack intended to live with Randall on that ranch, I think he was finally settling for a more comfortable partner and I guess the attraction might not have been so strong, not to speak of the emotional ties that still bound him to Ennis, but Jack was changing and he must have realised that Ennis wa s"gone" - he indeed intended to live with Randall, that's what I see in the movie. That nothing became of it is another story.

[Patriot1]

I'm not convinced that Jack ever really intended to live with Randall - significantly, his father says "he used to talk about moving up here with Ennis del Mar...then this spring he's got another one gonna move up here" (these may not be the exact words but they're close enough) The first phrase suggests that Jack spoke about Ennis more than once - maybe every time he visited his parents from 1963 onwards - while the second suggests to me that he only mentioned Randall (and possibly not by name?) once. Now I know this could be because he died and never got another chance to mention the other man, but the fact that his father says "but like all Jack's ideas, it never came to pass" doesn't really indicate that.

Am I making any sense?

Yes you are making sense but you got lost.  Jack and Ennis meet for the last time.  Jack is going up to visit his parents right after that meeting.  When he leaves the parking lot he has decided he and Randall are getting together.  Jack drives up to his parents and tells the old man he is bringing Randall up there.  Then, sometime between the time he leaves his parents (spring time) and November (or probably October) he is killed.

[Sunflower79]

I personally think Jack wen to Mexico to fill the void he was missing from Ennis..I don't think he had any real love or true feelings for the other guys he had sex with..it just to have sex..IN his heart and soul he really loved Ennis. The other men were just voids to fill a missing  peice..they were Ennis, he didn't love them or care about them or have any real feelings for them.
When he left Ennis and was driving towards Mexico after the divorce he was crying and really hurt. He used the guys to fill the missing peices..it was just sex and no love on his part..thats just my opinion..he was really hurt that he couldn't have a full life with Ennis and share with him..so he went else where to get the missing peices filled in..

[Valandil Eluch]

I personally think Jack wen to Mexico to fill the void he was missing from Ennis..I don't think he had any real love or true feelings for the other guys he had sex with..it just to have sex..IN his heart and soul he really loved Ennis. The other men were just voids to fill a missing  peice..they were Ennis, he didn't love them or care about them or have any real feelings for them.
When he left Ennis and was driving towards Mexico after the divorce he was crying and really hurt. He used the guys to fill the missing peices..it was just sex and no love on his part..thats just my opinion..he was really hurt that he couldn't have a full life with Ennis and share with him..so he went else where to get the missing peices filled in..

Sunflower79, i'll need to agree with you on this i'm gonna quote this parragraph of the ST

Measure the fu**in short leash you keep me on, and then ask me about Mexico and then tell you'll kill me for needin it and not hardly never gettin it. You got no fu**in idea how bad it gets. I'm not you....

by posting this i want to mean that Jack made clear Ennis that the other guys were just an object to him he was trying to get fullfill his sexual desire and that all he never mention anything about feelings. Jack was aware he was not doing it right but he was the emotive part on this relationship he was the one that was unable stand being without Ennis and was dying for him. Jack just looked at them as sexual object they were no names or person they were just that.

i think that mexico was jack's way to escape from his reality to be stuck on a marriage he never really wanted a life he was not pleased at all and his absence of Ennis. Jack hid himself on mexico as his own world to be outside his reality. I always wondered why he addressed Ennis to go with him on the last meeting but after thinking many times it could have beingt that he was trying to have Ennis out of the world he was afraid of and be with him out of their realities.

[welshwitch]

I agree with Patriot1 about the sequence of events - it's difficult to know how long Jack had been acquinted with Randall, and Randall was the one who made the first move - by then I think Jack had been to Mexico, maybe more than once, and not found any satisfation in mindless f..cking. He had realised there was no possibility of Ennis's changing -when in the last scene together Ennis asks whether Jack has any better ideas ( than his working all the time) Jack replies, "I did once", indicating that he has already given up on his dreams of a life with Ennis. so if he's going to have any future other than more of Lureen, on whom he's also given up (" So far as our marriage goes, we could do it over the phone.")  or more loveless trips to Mexico Randall  is his only alternative. Perhaps he also hears "time's wined charriot rushing near" and thinks this is his last chance - whatever he did in Mexico was unlikely to lead to any permanent relationship. 

[jerasjr]

I don't really attach much siginificance to Mexico, nor the fact that it came after rushing to Ennis, nor to Randall... they were excerpts that showed parts of Jack's life - the only significance is that it was different from Ennis' life.  Jack was more open, more social than Ennis...so naturally he had more experiences than Ennis.  Whether there were a significant number was not told to us - just as we did not see if Ennis had such chances.  To really know what went on  we would have to have been there day by day.  Ennis was Jack's big love...Jack was Ennis' big love.  That is what is important to think is significant, not the little sidetrips that cause so much speculation.   

[Sunflower79]

i think that mexico was jack's way to escape from his reality to be stuck on a marriage he never really wanted a life he was not pleased at all and his absence of Ennis. Jack hid himself on mexico as his own world to be outside his reality. I always wondered why he addressed Ennis to go with him on the last meeting but after thinking many times it could have beingt that he was trying to have Ennis out of the world he was afraid of and be with him out of their realities.

I do agree with you Carlos..that This was Jack's way of esaping realiting, being stuck in an loveless marriage, and wanting to be with Ennis so much it hurt when he couldn't be wtih him.  He really loved and cared so much for Ennis that having that denied to him he was hurt and Mexico was his escpape to be with people only for sex and nothing else. Intereting point you brought up..

[edgar]

i think that mexico was jack's way to escape from his reality to be stuck on a marriage he never really wanted a life he was not pleased at all and his absence of Ennis. Jack hid himself on mexico as his own world to be outside his reality. I always wondered why he addressed Ennis to go with him on the last meeting but after thinking many times it could have beingt that he was trying to have Ennis out of the world he was afraid of and be with him out of their realities.

I do agree with you Carlos..that This was Jack's way of esaping realiting, being stuck in an loveless marriage, and wanting to be with Ennis so much it hurt when he couldn't be wtih him.  He really loved and cared so much for Ennis that having that denied to him he was hurt and Mexico was his escpape to be with people only for sex and nothing else. Intereting point you brought up..

Yes, an escape. And, on a very practical level, going to Mexico and having sex with a prostitute would be pretty safe--not from a biological standpoint, of course, but from a sociological standpoint. He was not going to cause gossip, rumors, etc., of the kind the finally (it seems) killed him.

Jack was able to go to Mexico and sort of let his guard down. Breathe a little easier, just for a few minutes.

[welshwitch]

I read the scene as one of despair because Jack walked off with the Mexican into total darkness - it evokes ideas of nightm hell, nothingness. For me this represented the nadir of his ( sexual) life and a sort of betrayal of Ennis. Not his fault - he was evidently in total despair when he realised he'd entirely mistaken Ennis's motivation in letting him know about the divorce and had his hopes dashed again - i think for the last time, as this to me is the moment when he realises Ennis is never going to change. There's also the total contrast between the noisy, busy background of Mexico and the move into the dark, contrasted with the quiet and peace of BBM, and the way their affair moves from the near-dark of the tent out into the open air.