Topic: Jack on the bucking horse on thier first morning... different interpretation...

[CherryCake]

Hey guys,

Please forgive me if this topic  has already been brought up, but I saw the bucking horse scene just now and it struck me different.  I had always thought in this scene,  Jack was showing off his riding skills for Ennis.  I thought that was sooo cute. "Look at Jack trying to get Ennis's attention!"  And of course you then get the lil Jake Tongue thing going before he heads out and then Ennis does he famous lean-back to watch him go.

But in reading all the wonderful thoughtful posts on they boy's flirty/not flirty or when-did-they-know? seduction dance between them, I see that bucking horse scene like this now:

Jack got on the horse and had trouble controlling it at first. I hear him cuss, not make a yee haw! or having fun face or sound.  Remember, NOW we know Jack is kinda clumsy, a bad marksman, not great with animals. (Look how he dragged that sheep and threw it! (o.k. well, maybe that's the way you're supposed to do it, I dunno) and was later thrown by mare. ('she got lucky")
Anyway, I think that Ennis--who knows all about horses--was right.  That low startle point horse surprised Jack and tried to buck him off.  Ennis stopped cleaning up when he heard the noise cause he heard that his co-worker was in trouble.  Jack finally got control and threw him an " I got it now" sheepish look.  Jack was not showing off like I thought he was...
Ennis watches Jack out of concern.

Well, this is my take anyways...
Did anyone else see it this way too??

(sorry for just Lashawning on there)

[welshwitch]

With my usual taste for seeing things as symbolic, I always look at Jack's evident difficulty in controllig his horse as representing ( apart from Jake G's acknowledged limitations in riding) as representing his capacity for getting into situations he can't entirely handle and taking risks, as he does with ennis. Whenever Jack's in trouble on a horse, as in the sheep-unloading scene, Ennis is on terra firma, standing still, watching, his thoughts hidden. Shoes their differnt characters, IMO.

[dalemidex]

I do think there is truth to each of these takes on these scene.  Let me throw another one out there.

This scene is essentially the start of the story -- what comes before it is mostly a foundation.  Along with the physical action of this scene is Jack's (paraphrased) "best get a move on unless you wanna sit around tying knots all day".  That line leads me to see this scene as something of a foreshadowing of how Jack was going to change Ennis' life. Ennis is closed,  conventional, cautious, dutiful, reserved.  Jack on that hourse is bidding Ennis to take some chances to join him in experiencing life, if just for that summer.  Quit being so damn safe and careful and duitiful and planning and just get out here and DO it.     

[dalemidex]

(sorry for just Lashawning on there)

Now THAT is HILARIOUS!

[Rønnaug]

With my usual taste for seeing things as symbolic, I always look at Jack's evident difficulty in controllig his horse as representing ( apart from Jake G's acknowledged limitations in riding) as representing his capacity for getting into situations he can't entirely handle and taking risks, as he does with ennis. Whenever Jack's in trouble on a horse, as in the sheep-unloading scene, Ennis is on terra firma, standing still, watching, his thoughts hidden. Shoes their differnt characters, IMO.

great topic CC...

I hadn't thought of it this way before, but I think you are right WW ( sorry, stiff fingers today so thats why CC and WW )

[Patriot1]

Please forgive me this has already been brought up, but I saw the bucking horse scene just now and it struck me different.  I had always thought in this scene,  Jack was showing off his riding skills for Ennis.  I thought that was sooo cute. "Look at Jack trying to get Ennis's attention!"  And of course you then get the lil Jake Tongue thing going before he heads out and then Ennis does he famous lean-back to watch him go.

But in reading all the wonderful thoughtful posts on they boy's flirty/not flirty or when-did-they-know? seduction dance between them, I see that bucking horse scene like this now:

Jack got on the horse and had trouble controlling it at first. I hear him cuss, not make a yee haw! or having fun face or sound.  Remember, NOW we know Jack is kinda clumsy, a bad marksman, not great with animals. (Look how he dragged that sheep and threw it! (o.k. well, maybe that's the way you're supposed to do it, I dunno) and was later thrown by mare. ('she got lucky")

Anyway, I think that Ennis--who knows all about horses--was right.  That low startle point horse surprised Jack and tried to buck him off.  Ennis stopped cleaning up when he heard the noise cause he heard that his co-worker was in trouble.  Jack finally got control and threw him an " I got it now" sheepish look.  Jack was not showing off like I thought he was...

Ennis watches Jack out of concern.

CherryCake,

Setting aside any symbolism which may be misinterpreted or missed entirely, I think Ang Lee needed to show a bonding of the boys. Using the popular "bookends" term there are two scenes that go together that show this bonding.

First there is the scene you mentioned. Back at the trailhead Ennis tells Jack he has a horse with a low startle point and Jack replies that he doubted there was a filly that could throw him.  When, up on the mountain, the horse starts to buck, Ennis looks at Jack but says nothing because he respected Jack and didn't want to embarrass him by giving him pointers or suggestions if you will. He treated Jack like a man and let him handle the situation. But if Jack had been thrown off the horse, I'd be willing to bet Ennis would have been to Jack's side  in 2 or 3 steps. Ennis watched Jack until he rode off out of caring and concern for Jack, that special bonding.

The other scene is when Jack tends to Ennis' wounds after the bear encounter. In that scene Jack was now showing his caring and concern for Ennis.

So, it is my opinion there is nothing magical or symbolic in these two scenes, just a growing caring and concern for each other. Their friendship was growing and this was Ang Lee's way of showing it.  Simple and to the point.

[FulOfSadness]

That look that he gives to Ennis, as he's about to ride away is like saying "Oh sh!t, did he see me mess up?" like he was making sure Ennis was watching, and was a little embarrassed that he at first couldn't handle the horse

[Rosie]

Jack sure does look embarrassed and disappointed that Ennis has seen that doesn't he.  I think Patriot1 has put it perfectly and I agree completely with his interpretation.

[CherryCake]

First there is the scene you mentioned. Back at the trailhead Ennis tells Jack he has a horse with a low startle point and Jack replies that he doubted there was a filly that could throw him.  When, up on the mountain, the horse starts to buck, Ennis looks at Jack but says nothing because he respected Jack and didn't want to embarrass him by giving him pointers or suggestions if you will. He treated Jack like a man and let him handle the situation. But if Jack had been thrown off the horse, I'd be willing to bet Ennis would have been to Jack's side  in 2 or 3 steps. Ennis watched Jack until he rode off out of caring and concern for Jack, that special bonding.

The other scene is when Jack tends to Ennis' wounds after the bear encounter. In that scene Jack was now showing his caring and concern for Ennis.

Yes.. thanks for that nice summary, Patriot.  I can see how this scence moves the story on.  it's a nice little scene.

[Silk]

Jack was trying to get Ennis's attention.  Also the mare was not giving Jack enough trouble to unseat him.  Actually he was very hard on the horses mouth and that started it.  Spurring also.  Attention getter.  Showing off.  He was so adorable.

[tpe]

With my usual taste for seeing things as symbolic, I always look at Jack's evident difficulty in controllig his horse as representing ( apart from Jake G's acknowledged limitations in riding) as representing his capacity for getting into situations he can't entirely handle and taking risks, as he does with ennis. Whenever Jack's in trouble on a horse, as in the sheep-unloading scene, Ennis is on terra firma, standing still, watching, his thoughts hidden. Shoes their differnt characters, IMO.

I had missed this topic for some reason.

I like this post.

[tpe]

First there is the scene you mentioned. Back at the trailhead Ennis tells Jack he has a horse with a low startle point and Jack replies that he doubted there was a filly that could throw him.  When, up on the mountain, the horse starts to buck, Ennis looks at Jack but says nothing because he respected Jack and didn't want to embarrass him by giving him pointers or suggestions if you will. He treated Jack like a man and let him handle the situation. But if Jack had been thrown off the horse, I'd be willing to bet Ennis would have been to Jack's side  in 2 or 3 steps. Ennis watched Jack until he rode off out of caring and concern for Jack, that special bonding.

The other scene is when Jack tends to Ennis' wounds after the bear encounter. In that scene Jack was now showing his caring and concern for Ennis.

Yes.. thanks for that nice summary, Patriot.  I can see how this scence moves the story on.  it's a nice little scene.

I do like that post too.

[rane99]

When I saw this scene in the cinema for the first time, I wasn't sure what this all about.. now it makes sense.... Ennis warned Jack about the horse with the low startle point and now we see Ennis is right.  lol maybe Jack should have listened to Ennis, lolol

[aintfoolin]

Yes, Ennis did warn Jack about his horse's low "starlle point" in the beginningMaybe he should've been listening ,cuz the look on his face later said he'd rather go through 10 root canals than let Ennis Del Mar see him get thrown off that horse. Ennis WAS right. Embarrasment? you bet.

[welshwitch]

It's perfectly in character, too. All the macho things Jack tries to do - ride, shoot, etc, he's inept at. Whenever Ennis does something - rides, shoots, etc., he knows what he's doing. The only thinh that literally ( and metaphorically - sorry!) unsettles him is the bear, which I tend to see as the sort of force of nature that Ennis can't handle - and love is a force of nature, and he can't handle that either.                   

[aintfoolin]

By now Ennis knows Jack sucks at most of "manly man" things like shooting etc..., but he never razzed him about it in a mean or selfish way. There are all different types of guys out there.  If we were to put them in catagories (EEK)!!! Ennis maybe considerd to be silent type, where Jack is more nurturing and understanding of feelings and this is also an important virtue. In their own ways they care for each other. ........For those who will say that I'm saying Jack is femine, I'm  NOT He just more in touch with that side of his personality than Ennis.IMO

[ksxks]

I like what everyone else said about this little scene, showing aspects of their characters.

I agree Jack isn't always so adept at some things (and I love him all the more for that), but I didn't see him looking embarrassed or incompetent (though I'll have to watch again -- big hardship).  I had always thought it was showing that he could indeed handle a horse with a low startle point.  It took him a few moments, but he did control the horse, and both were very well aware that Ennis was witness to this.

Well, one friend, who really likes to see everything symbolically (including water buckets in one setting up camp scene vs. Ennis kicking a dried up old bucket of dust in the "can I give you girls a push" scene)...she talks about this scene being about Ennis having a low startle point, and Jack showing he can gentle the horse/Ennis.

kathy

[NoReins]

It's perfectly in character, too. All the macho things Jack tries to do - ride, shoot, etc, he's inept at. Whenever Ennis does something - rides, shoots, etc., he knows what he's doing. The only thinh that literally ( and metaphorically - sorry!) unsettles him is the bear, which I tend to see as the sort of force of nature that Ennis can't handle - and love is a force of nature, and he can't handle that either.                   

But did the bear really unsettle Ennis? Seemed to me that he was pretty calm and it was the horse that spooked when the bear roared. When he finally gets back to camp, he doesn't say that he was startled by the bear - just that the horse and mules were.

OT - I can't watch that scene without laughing after hearing Heath talking about the baby bear and how it wouldn't roar

[scribe]

I agree with all this but it's interesting that later on , when the relationship between Ennis and Jack is more established, Jack is prepared to admit to Ennis that the mare did eventually throw him - and bent his harmonica....  It seems that Jack got to the stage where he didn't try and pretend to be all macho to Ennis because Ennis was fully aware of his limitations.

[CherryCake]

I agree with all this but it's interesting that later on , when the relationship between Ennis and Jack is more established, Jack is prepared to admit to Ennis that the mare did eventually throw him - and bent his harmonica....  It seems that Jack got to the stage where he didn't try and pretend to be all macho to Ennis because Ennis was fully aware of his limitations.

OOh,,yes, Scribe, you are right, I didn't realize that.  Jack was getting  comfortable being open with Ennis about.  Thanks for pointing this out

[welshwitch]

Sorry about "unsettles" - I'll re-phrase it. Ennis is unseated ( from the horse) by the bear, and ends up on the ground injured and bleeding - as Jack does in the scene before they leave the mountain, now I think of it.

[NoReins]

Sorry about "unsettles" - I'll re-phrase it. Ennis is unseated ( from the horse) by the bear, and ends up on the ground injured and bleeding - as Jack does in the scene before they leave the mountain, now I think of it.

Ah, ok. Sorry - I misunderstood what you meant.

[ksxks]

I agree with all this but it's interesting that later on , when the relationship between Ennis and Jack is more established, Jack is prepared to admit to Ennis that the mare did eventually throw him - and bent his harmonica....  It seems that Jack got to the stage where he didn't try and pretend to be all macho to Ennis because Ennis was fully aware of his limitations.

OOh,,yes, Scribe, you are right, I didn't realize that.  Jack was getting  comfortable being open with Ennis about.  Thanks for pointing this out

You're both so right -- what a lovely thing, that little interchange.  What a lovely thing that Jack didn't have to pretend; and also, Ennis was never one to belittle in any way, either.  That whole scene is sweet, and has some great lines open to interpretation.  Not only "she got lucky" but the whole "tent don't look right" interchange.

kathy

[aintfoolin]

And  the tent did look straighter after he fixed it.The harmonca did'nt "break into" but Ennis "got lucky" that night anyway! SMILE.

[Carefree Wind]

and Jack showing he can gentle the horse/Ennis.

Perhaps I'm seeing something in the movie that isn't even there..but anyway.

In my own interpretation...at the beginning of the movie...when Jack and Ennis only first know eachother...albiet not very well..Jack's horse is for want of a better word ..wild. Jack and Ennis are still getting to know one another..and all that entails. But as the movie progresses...Jack's horse gradually becomes more tame. So I take it as the closer Jack and Ennis becomes...the more tame the horse also becomes.

[greenfrog]

Hehehehe 
I can just picture Jack, taming Ennis 

[aintfoolin]

That would take alot of horse whips and rope,...Naw just kidding, but in a way Jack did tame Ennis to a certain point. it's just hard to tell cause Ennis is so hard to read, but on Brokeback Jack "lassoed "  Ennis in to tje point where Ennis let go of the reins completely!.( SNIT )  Later he realizes that fighting his feelings did more harm than good.  " aint no reins on this one".