Topic: Earl ‘n Rich and The Garden of Eden

[lamusica]

Why is it that Jack is look upon as the "Eve" that has Ennis tasting the fruit?   The knowledge was in Ennis all along. That first night,  Jack just took his hand  brought it to him.   Was this an aggressive act? 

I didn't mean to imply that Jack was in the wrong, or that he tempted Ennis into doing something God forbade, as did Eve and Adam in the Bible.  I was merely remarking that I believe Jack was more knowledgeable about sex and more experienced -- enough so that he knew what he liked and wanted it from Ennis.  The fact that he took the leadership in FNIT doesn't mean anything other than that to me.  I certainly am not condeming Jack or implying that he is the reason for their ill-fated love affair.  (Just wanted to clear that up.)

[aintfoolin]

Jack never forced Ennis to do anything. This isolation in the "garden" was ideal for this process to take place.
When the time came , all systems were GO and both took advantage of these perfect conditions to express themselves. FNIT was Ennis's take on the matter, SNIT was Jack's, in both cases Jack and Ennis were willing participants IMO.

[manhattangirl]

But I sometimes wonder whether Ennis would have chosen to be alone, if God gave him a say.
By analogy, was Jack the tempter in the Garden?  Or was he himself the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?  Perhaps he was both...

IMO:

Like all of us, God did give Ennis a say,  The knowledge of Good and Evil begs us to choose.  Wasn't that the point.   The fruit was there and along with it was a warning.  Ennis didn't heed the warning and tasted the fruit, he made the choice. Now knowing the taste of the fruit, which was Jack, and his attraction, love and need for him, it all became real.  That now he has to deal with the consequences of knowing the good and evil of his love,  which is what his father showed him as a boy, and what Jack showed him as a man.

And if Ennis wanted to be alone, he would have returned to the sheep that very night.   

[tpe]

I think he was both. He was  the object of Ennis's temptation ,and at the same time  used his knowledge to spark the embers to a flame to what they both knew and felt existed within themselves. For Ennis , IMO found it both good and evil, but there was an excitment for him within this..  what was just a desire became real for him. To use Jack's words ...Fast or slow Ennis  secretly liked the direction Jack was going.
 Eventually he got to "aint no reins on this one"  Finally, an admission to Jack that his feelings for him were set in stone.  It was,  at last,  spiritual to him, from the bottom of his soul he loved him. Would Ennis choose to never have had the experience?  IMO? no, I think he was grateful  to Jack for the fulfillment of that knowledge. Would'nt have traded it for the world.

Without Jack's help,  Ennis probably would have never known true love or the freedom to realize his whole true being if only for a few moments a couple times a year. My take on it.

Well said, aintfoolin.  I do think that Ennis certainly woldn't choose otherwise, and that he was grateful to Jack for revealing who he was deep down.  But as in the biblical counterpart, knowledge meant suffering -- the expulsion from the Garden of Eden.  Ennis was certainly never the same again.  In a way, it was a loss of innocence.

[tpe]

Expelled from the mountain as from Eden by Aguirre and under the curse imposed on Adam and Eve, that they must toil and suffer for the rest of their lives, would either wish they had never met, never eaten the apple? How can they know? They can never return to what was the status quo before they met.They can't unknow what they've known. I like to think that each is glad they found the other, but on my worse days I sometimes wonder.

But this is knowledge, isn't it?  One can try to forget, nut a part of that knowledge lies buried inside of us, never to be repudiated.

[tpe]

I feel the same way thomas, and wonder too if he wouldn't be more comfortable with his animals.
In his own words:

"Wouldn't mind being out there"

Mankind had let him down too often. It wasn't unitl he was gone that he realized Jack was only one who didn't.
 :\'(

The analogy of scriptural stewardship is -- incidentally -- echoed in that scene when Aguirre spies Ennis up the mountain caring for a sick sheep. 

BBM certainly represented a kind of Eden fro Ennis -- away from the humanity that had let him down and put him down too often.  The fact that Jack is the sole companion is telling -- together, they make the Garden of Eden what it is for both of them -- as what God and nature had intended them to be.

[tpe]

IMO:

Like all of us, God did give Ennis a say,  The knowledge of Good and Evil begs us to choose.  Wasn't that the point.   The fruit was there and along with it was a warning.  Ennis didn't heed the warning and tasted the fruit, he made the choice. Now knowing the taste of the fruit, which was Jack, and his attraction, love and need for him, it all became real.  That now he has to deal with the consequences of knowing the good and evil of his love,  which is what his father showed him as a boy, and what Jack showed him as a man.

And if Ennis wanted to be alone, he would have returned to the sheep that very night.   

Well, in a way, the hand of God forced the issue by bringing Jack into Ennis's life.  The same way that Eve was "forced" upon Adam because God knew that it was good.  But it is true: Jack was both companion and the fruit of knowledge.  The choice of Ennis, therefore, was to give in to his innate feelings for Jack.  So, in a way, it had the dichotomy of both free will and predestination: of choice versus fate. 

[welshwitch]

In "Paradise Lost" Eve tempts Adam into eating the apple which he does out of love for her and knowing that the consequences will be dreadful. The immediate result is that both feel lust and enjoy sex for pleasure rather than for its proper purpose, procreation, and next day can't face each other till they've made themselves clothes.

So for FNIT Jack is Eve, leading Ennis on, though Ennis does what he does willingly. SNIT in Milton's terms ( and accepting that he wouldn;t have approved of E and J anyway!) is quite different because it's not about unrestrained desire. Both I think realise after FNIT that there will be consequences - neither is eaxactly ready to face the other the next morning. By SNIT they've accepted the situation for the moment.

[tpe]

In "Paradise Lost" Eve tempts Adam into eating the apple which he does out of love for her and knowing that the consequences will be dreadful. The immediate result is that both feel lust and enjoy sex for pleasure rather than for its proper purpose, procreation, and next day can't face each other till they've made themselves clothes.

So for FNIT Jack is Eve, leading Ennis on, though Ennis does what he does willingly. SNIT in Milton's terms ( and accepting that he wouldn;t have approved of E and J anyway!) is quite different because it's not about unrestrained desire. Both I think realise after FNIT that there will be consequences - neither is eaxactly ready to face the other the next morning. By SNIT they've accepted the situation for the moment.

Good analogy, WW.  Although like in the Genesis story, they were perhaps only dimly aware of the depth of the consequences...

[manhattangirl]

Good analogy, WW.  Although like in the Genesis story, they were perhaps only dimly aware of the depth of the consequences...

I believe you're right.  It was that night that mattered, consequences were not thought of for that moment, only the desire for each other, the punishment, well,  that's for later.

[tpe]

I believe you're right.  It was that night that mattered, consequences were not thought of for that moment, only the desire for each other, the punishment, well,  that's for later.

And I still think that no matter what happened to them later, it was all worth it.  People often warn that the "folly" of today will be paid for tomorrow.  In certain instances, I have always believed that not taking heed to what the morrow may bring is justified.  How many times have we thrown ourselves into relationships that required in due time a debt of tears?  Given the hindsight and a chance to relive things, I am sure that many of us would nonetheless commit them again.  I think this was the case with Ennis and Jack: even if they had the hindsight of what was to come, they probably would have left things unaltered. 

[aintfoolin]

And I still think that no matter what happened to them later, it was all worth it.  People often warn that the "folly" of today will be paid for tomorrow.  In certain instances, I have always believed that not taking heed to what the morrow may bring is justified.  How many times have we thrown ourselves into relationships that required in due time a debt of tears?  Given the hindsight and a chance to relive things, I am sure that many of us would nonetheless commit them again.  I think this was the case with Ennis and Jack: even if they had the hindsight of what was to come, they probably would have left things unaltered. 

I agree with this wholeheartedly Tpe.

 In the end I wonder if Jack felt the love he shared with Ennis was worth all the pain. Unlike the Genesis story ,there was no serpent whispering in Ennis's ear, but sins of his father were.
Jack was the forbidden apple, and Ennis's guilt and shame were actually his father's Not his. He is a product of what his father instilled,  words and deeds.a child tricked out of free will and thought. but once Ennis took  a small bite of what was forbidden in FNIT, certain  adult truths were realized by him. How could something that feels so right be so wrong? Starts to question what he'd been taught, but the fear and shame owned him.
 He could  not seperate himself from it as a grown  man of the next generation., and live his life outside the rules so ingrained in him ,yet at certain times, despite his fear, he broke free ie: SNIT, reunion,etc.( example) where Ennis sat on the log outside the tent and came to some kind of terms with whatever this thing was. This was deep. Throws another log on the fire, walks freely, hat in hand , into the arms of this magicman Jack Twist.  Practically flew down those stairs to accept again  what he knew was missing from his life for 4 years, eventually admitted that he could not rein in the feelings he had for Jack ,offering him Earl and Rich's story as the reason he held back.
 He came to a realization that a part of Jack was part of him, and he did'nt want to live without him.  Sometimes he was able to put aside his fear and take an even bigger bite of the apple and imo sealed his fate tighter to Jack.  To their surprise, love had found them and in those moments, there were no consequences.  I think Ennis found the freedom to love Jack but not the freedom to show it openly. If he could've gone full throttle, even Jack would be suprised I think.  He would have smotherd Jack in all the love and happiness he could stand.. .MO

[welshwitch]

And in any case the Garden of Eden contains within itself the seeds of its own destruction and is a place where perfection can't last - just like Brokeback Mountain. Eviction and confrontation with the hardships of real life are inevitable concomitants.

[tpe]

Thanks aintfoolin and WW. 

"Pride" has always been the sin that theologians over the centuries have pinned on Adam and Eve in the Garden -- the desire to be like God.

I don't know if this is applicable in the case of Ennis and Jack.  In their case, it seemed more like they were fated, and already possessed of the knowledge that is the key to their own destruction.  The knowledge of good and evil seemed to have preceded the eating of the fruit of knowledge, and it would seem that they spent the rest of their lives grappling with that knowledge.

[aintfoolin]

Exactly Tpe and WW. .."disobedience" can be added to the list of theological theories here as  well, as the scriptures are interpreted in  many different ways. They did have knowledge of what could happen if they acted upon their feelings but the temptation was too great, the need too strong, the love so deep, that neither one heeded the warnings. Jack, being  stronger in his acceptance does his best to bring Ennis along to his way of thinking, being  that the rules society had laid down concerning a relationship such as theirs was locking them down into a half-life experience. He sought a way to make them a little bit more free in the choices they had in their love for each other.
Call it a dream, or even a foolish dream, but Jack felt the reality of that dream, that this could happen. He invested 20 years of his life trying to make it so.  The bottom line is nothing or no one had the right to keep his dream  with Ennis from becoming reality. Amidst all the potential rejection, he fought against society defining what he and Ennis had while sometimes having to fight Ennis himself.  This indeed wore him down but, I admired his strength of conviction. Sweet My 2 cents.

[tpe]

Exactly Tpe and WW. .."disobedience" can be added to the list of theological theories here as  well, as the scriptures are interpreted in  many different ways. They did have knowledge of what could happen if they acted upon their feelings but the temptation was too great, the need too strong, the love so deep, that neither one heeded the warnings. Jack, being  stronger in his acceptance does his best to bring Ennis along to his way of thinking, being  that the rules society had laid down concerning a relationship such as theirs was locking them down into a half-life experience. He sought a way to make them a little bit more free in the choices they had in their love for each other.
Call it a dream, or even a foolish dream, but Jack felt the reality of that dream, that this could happen. He invested 20 years of his life trying to make it so.  The bottom line is nothing or no one had the right to keep his dream  with Ennis from becoming reality. Amidst all the potential rejection, he fought against society defining what he and Ennis had while sometimes having to fight Ennis himself.  This indeed wore him down but, I admired his strength of conviction. Sweet My 2 cents.

I do thinmk that Jack anticipated the "fall from grace", if only to aspire for the divine.  This was why he was more accepting, whereas Ennis remained rooted to the earth, Eden though it may have been to him.