Topic: The Rodeo Clown and Liminality

[The Artifact]

Such a very interesting discussion! Thank you lachlan and welshwitch. I've never thought about that scene so deeply, now I've to admit how many meanings I lost. I agree Jack's behavour is an obvious trial to get conctact with another uman beeing in a situation of loneliness. And I'm also fascinated by the intepretation of symbolic function of clowns picture, seen and used in literature as people which live at the edge of society and, better than others, can represent risks and possibilities inserted in walking on the line of public acceptance.

[manhattangirl]

From the word go, Jack's an outsider - look at Aguirre's attitude to him.

Jack's often on the edge of the crowd - the rodeo clown isn't heroic like the bull-riders but he's more included than Jack is.

He's an outsider when visiting his own new-born son.

When he's selling tractors, he's clearly an outsider to the locals who buy the things.

He's an outsider in Mexico.

The rodeo clown reinforces Jack's position, or lack of it, and shows how exposed he is - there's no group he can merge into and hide.

Exactly,  That why I respect this character so much.  Jack when through all you pointed out, and still kept his ability to love.   The  most heartbreaking thing in Jack's story,  not even with Ennis could he find that total acceptance.    

[tpe]

Absolutely. I got the sense that Jimbo went over and told his friends what just transpired. By sharing what happened, he is attempting to create a "male bonding" moment with his friends, who would presumably be united in their shared disgust and hostility towards Jack and his presumed intentions.

Interesting point.  This happens quite frequently in real life, I suppose.  It is the psychology behind lynchings...

[tpe]

Only my interpretation, of course: In my experience there are numerous boundaries to overcome when trying to make friends with someone who is a member of a team. Especially if you are obviously on your own and having to make the first move. If Jimbo were a magnanimous person and secure with the fact that he's part of the group, he probably would have welcomed Jack's generosity and compliment ("Best rodeo-clown I've ever worked with."). But he actually puts Jack down and makes a point of getting up from the bar where he was sitting and joining the group - of calf-ropers around the pool table - as a gesture that reinforces his right of membership. Rejecting an outsider is a cheap means of strengthening his bond with the others. In Annie Proulx's writings, it is made clear that the calf-ropers and the rodeo clowns are a relatively stable social group and that bullriders are perceived by them as itinerant chancers. And a poor boy from Wyoming in affluent, arrogant Texas. This would apply also to LD Newsome's dismissal of Jack with "Rodeo can get 'em". I can see a thread running through Jack's life as an unintentional outsider trying desperately to fit in somewhere. His love of Innes could well be fuelled by his need for admiration and acceptance, and by Ennis' needs which Jack believes he can fulfill.

Perfect!  Well said.

[rpmnh]

>>I can see a thread running through Jack's life as an unintentional outsider trying desperately to fit in somewhere.

Yes, I think that this is right on the mark. The only thing that I have to add here is that I have to question how uncommon this really is. Certainly, this is all a matter of degree, and I think that Jack may have experienced these feelings both intensely and frequently, but I would surmise that "most of us" experience these feelings, in various degrees, some more than others, during the course of our life. It's possible that that the "popular kids" may avoid this to any real extent, but it's hard for me to say firsthand. Maybe it is just that the "outsiders" imagine and/or are lead to believe that the others are beyond this experience, but the truth may be different, in the end...

[tpe]

>>I can see a thread running through Jack's life as an unintentional outsider trying desperately to fit in somewhere.

Yes, I think that this is right on the mark. The only thing that I have to add here is that I have to question how uncommon this really is. Certainly, this is all a matter of degree, and I think that Jack may have experienced these feelings both intensely and frequently, but I would surmise that "most of us" experience these feelings, in various degrees, some more than others, during the course of our life. It's possible that that the "popular kids" may avoid this to any real extent, but it's hard for me to say firsthand. Maybe it is just that the "outsiders" imagine and/or are lead to believe that the others are beyond this experience, but the truth may be different, in the end...

I do think everyone to some degree go through this struggle of finding where we belong.  The clown, for example, seems to fit in with the others in that scene with Jack, but I cannot help associating the rodeo clown image itself as suggestive of alienation and something hidden behind a facade of convention.

It is natural for us to associate the clown with the societal forces that seemingly marginalize Jack.  But we should also take note that the world of the clown is also -- in many ways -- a world seemingly on the fringe.

Just a thought...

 

[welshwitch]

The clown, although on the edges of society and outside its conventions, is also a licensed and accepted figure, so that he has more assurance of his position than other types of outsider. So in this sequence he can walk up to the others and know that, though he will never exactly be one of them, he will nevertheless be admitted to the group without question - a security which Jack would never have in this setting.

[neuontz]

Only my interpretation, of course: In my experience there are numerous boundaries to overcome when trying to make friends with someone who is a member of a team. Especially if you are obviously on your own and having to make the first move. If Jimbo were a magnanimous person and secure with the fact that he's part of the group, he probably would have welcomed Jack's generosity and compliment ("Best rodeo-clown I've ever worked with."). But he actually puts Jack down and makes a point of getting up from the bar where he was sitting and joining the group - of calf-ropers around the pool table - as a gesture that reinforces his right of membership. Rejecting an outsider is a cheap means of strengthening his bond with the others. In Annie Proulx's writings, it is made clear that the calf-ropers and the rodeo clowns are a relatively stable social group and that bullriders are perceived by them as itinerant chancers. And a poor boy from Wyoming in affluent, arrogant Texas. This would apply also to LD Newsome's dismissal of Jack with "Rodeo can get 'em". I can see a thread running through Jack's life as an unintentional outsider trying desperately to fit in somewhere. His love of Innes could well be fuelled by his need for admiration and acceptance, and by Ennis' needs which Jack believes he can fulfill.

Hi Lachlan.

I just want to say that I read your introductory post on "Introducing Yourself" about your personal parallels to BBM, and found them moving and fascinating, as is your perceptive take on the rodeo clown scene. I always read that scene as Jack's attempt to find companionship and acceptance, whether sexual or not (although AP does tell us that Jack, during the years after Brokeback, had not been "rolling his own”). But I wasn't really aware of the stratification that existed between bull-riders and ropers, and your insight really makes a lot of sense within the context of that scene. Also, I find it poignant that you tend to interchange, seemingly unconsciously, the names of “Innes” and “Ennis.”  ?

[Carolien]

I find it interesting to read everyone's opinion about this subject. You can look at this story from so many perspectives!
So if bull riders and rodeo clowns didn't like eachother so much, than its not an akward thing what happened to Jack in the bar with the clown. But this scene comes to me like if Jimbo the clown already had his doubts about Jack, before he offered him a drink. It seemed he wanted to keep him on a distance, maybe he heard things about him. Also, mr. Newsome didn't like him: he reffered to his rodeo past, like if rodeo is something for softies, and off course the dinner/tv scene, where he also implicates that Jack isn't a real man or something. To me , rodeo seems something for tough guys, its dangerous, and you have to be strong.
But maybe people in that time looked down on the bull riders in an way of: they are only after the money and they don't like to work for it.
Maybe that was also mr. Newsome's way of looking at Jack.
In the movie/story, there are various scenes where other people seem to disregard Jack, so its an effect that he has on certain people. But, on the other hand, Jack also has an attraction on people like Ennis, Randall and Lureen. So what's the diffrence between those people?
I think it has to do with status and setted ways of interaction between groups ( bad understanding: clowns/bull riders and rich/poor) and the people who loved Jack had other motives: with Ennis it was love, wich wasn't a motive but a force of nature, i think in the beginning with Lureen also love, and with Randall it was an adventure, but not a love relation.
The movie/story only shows particular parts of the story, but off course, there happened a lot more things.
And that's good that we don't know them, because in a story written like Lord of the Rings, nothing is left to your fantasie and everything is fixed. Not that lotr is bad, actually i have seen it and read it over and over again, but it has not such an impact on me as BBM.

But my point is in this topic: the Jimbo scene tells me that in that particular rodeo camp ( or how you want to call it) there where rumours about Jack wich Jimbo had heard. It was not only the the (unwritten) rule that clowns and bull riders don't have a beer together. I can't imagine that only buying a beer for someone of the same sex implicates that he wants something from you, even not in that time. Maybe someone who was young in these days can tell something about this.
To me, and for everyone on this forum i guess, the whole movie is also interesting because of the numerous questions you can ask yourself about it.

[tpe]

OT:neuontz and Carolien, welcome to the forum!

To react to waht Carolien has said:  I do think the clown scene is part of an underlying theme in the movie where Jack finds himself constantly pushed to the margins and is disregarded by everybody, in spite of his friendliness and diser to reach out and be loved.

Ennis and Jack are quintessentially outsiders, as is portrayed many times in the various scenes of the movie.  However, Ennis seems to live in the periphery as if he himself had wanted it that way, whereas Jack seems to be always pushed out against his will.  IN a sense, I think Ennis accepted his being an outsider, and Jack was constantly fighting it. His marriage to Lureen and wanting to belong and be accepted goes a long way in throwing some light on his desire to be loved.

[welshwitch]

The rodeo clowns choose to be outsiders - in a way that's their job. In contrast Ennis settles for being an outsider ( though if you think of the scene where he says he's been imagining everyone looking at him maybe he's not entirely happy about it) because he's Ennis and thinks he has to stand it. Jack seems to know from the beginning that he's an outsider - he accepts Aguirre's rejection when he goes back there the second summer, and appears to accept the rodeo clown's rejection too, though not happily. Then the Newsomes shut him out and it's perfectly evident that Jack doesn;t want to be an outsider; the problem is that Ennis won't let him be anything else.

The clown at least has a public arena in which he can function with publuc approval - Ennis and Jack always end up meeting on the edges - the stairwell, the out-of-town motel, "way the hell out in the middle of nowhere" because therir type of difference is one that their society can't accommodate, even on the peripheries.

[AnitaSmith]

Also, mr. Newsome didn't like him: he reffered to his rodeo past, like if rodeo is something for softies, and off course the dinner/tv scene, where he also implicates that Jack isn't a real man or something. To me , rodeo seems something for tough guys, its dangerous, and you have to be strong. But maybe people in that time looked down on the bull riders in an way of: they are only after the money and they don't like to work for it. Maybe that was also mr. Newsome's way of looking at Jack.

The disrespect with which Mr. Newsome regarded Jack was appalling.  Newsome consistently referred to Jack, his son-in-law and the father of his grandchild, as "Rodeo!"  And, in one scene, Laureen seemed  complicit in this disrespect by her silence.  It's when two customers came into her office and were peering out of the window watching Jack ride a tractor.  One of them asks:  "Didn't he use to rodeo?"  (A derogatory term was used, but I do not remember it.)  The other customer responds:  "He used to try!"  Laureen raises her head when she hears this and says nothing.  Now, on the other hand, as far as I am concerned, it might be a matter of cultural differences.  I have lived in the Northeast all of my life and have never been to either Texas or Wyoming.  In the Brokeback Mountain DVD Diana Ossana talks about the life of cowboys and how they can be very laconic because they spend so much time alone.  Yet they, apparently, pack a punch and a great deal of information into the few words that they do say.  "He used to try!" says reams about what they though of Jack Twist.

[manhattangirl]

The statement was "the pissant that use to ride the bulls" , and Lureen just looked up, and didn't defend her husband, said so much.   Jack's problems was his lack of respectability, social standing,  He's  the pissant who luck out and married LD Newsome's  daughter, got himself an easy gig. 

Another scene that showed Jack's status was when he looking for blue parka, for his trip to meet Ennis.  When Lureen mentioned that he was needed back, because he was the best combine saleman they had, and added, their only combine saleman, if that's not a back handed compliment I don't what is . 

I loved the  Thanksgiving scene when Jack put LD in his place, but you could tell in that scene it was hard for Jack to speak up for himself, but he did it.    Jack was speaking up!!!  Finally, I think this gave him courage to speak up when Ennis changed  the date of their meeting from August to November.   Jack found his voice.  He had it,  he wasn't going to play by Ennis rules anymore. 

Jack was indeed changing, not his love for Ennis, but changing at how he looked at himself, and was able to express what he wanted and needed from Ennis.

This must have been a shock to systems to all three:  Ennis, LD, and Lureen. 

[tpe]

The statement was "the pissant that use to ride the bulls" , and Lureen just looked up, and didn't defend her husband, said so much.   Jack's problems was his lack of respectability, social standing,  He's  the pissant who luck out and married LD Newsome's  daughter, got himself an easy gig. 

Another scene that showed Jack's status was when he looking for blue parka, for his trip to meet Ennis.  When Lureen mentioned that he was needed back, because he was the best combine saleman they had, and added, their only combine saleman, if that's not a back handed compliment I don't what is . 

I loved the  Thanksgiving scene when Jack put LD in his place, but you could tell in that scene it was hard for Jack to speak up for himself, but he did it.    Jack was speaking up!!!  Finally, I think this gave him courage to speak up when Ennis changed  the date of their meeting from August to November.   Jack found his voice.  He had it,  he wasn't going to play by Ennis rules anymore. 

Jack was indeed changing, not his love for Ennis, but changing at how he looked at himself, and was able to express what he wanted and needed from Ennis.

This must have been a shock to systems to all three:  Ennis, LD, and Lureen. 

OT: It is interesting that in the published screenplay, Lureen actually does NOT say that Jack is the only salesman.  In fact, she goes out of her way to say that her father can't drive the newer more modern models and only Jack could do it.  The final version is certainly less complimentary to Jack.

With reference to the origional topic, yes: Jack's problem has always been acceptance and respectability.  The clown scene and these later scenes certainly illustrate this.  Even when he marries well, he still egts very little respect.