Topic: Let's get physical: Ennis's fights

[ksxks]

Remember the two bikers, and he laid them out all by his lonesome.  Imagine if he was defending Jack.?  Imagine both fighting them off, Oh, I get all tinglely thinking about it.  IMSW (in my own sick way).   

Sick, you bet.  I totally get what you mean, though.  I can picture that, too, the two of them, each fighting for the other -- what they're fighting for would make them a force to be reckoned with against some idiots just out probably drunk to make trouble against what they think is an easy target.

Also, I always worried about them on their camping trips -- not in 1963 so much, but later -- because there were crazy people out in the wilderness, unfortunately.  Or maybe my fears were from being women-without-men camping and such -- we really were not safe.  But men weren't, either.  There came a time, I guess 70's and into 80's, when if it wasn't an ax murderer, it was meth freaks and maybe E and J would get too close to their lab.

kathy

[manhattangirl]

But you know Kathy, it was like time was suspended when they were together, I know this is OT,but it didn't matter it was '63, '73, or '83.  When they were together the outside world stopped for them for that short time they were together.    Just another thought.

But, back to what you were saying, I don't about the meth lab, being out there, but I sure think they might run  in to a "hippie commune".  Wouldn't that be a hoot.  "All we are say is give peace a chance."

[jackster]

Yes, I suspect that Ennis would not have been brought down as easily as Jack, even with the element of surprise. What if Ennis would have been there?  3 to 2 is not too bad.  And Ennis would have probably been a stubborn adversary, not so easily brought down.

You bet. As desribed in the SS in '63, he was given the tools and seemed he never changed much:

Ennis, high arched nose and narrow face, was scruffy and a little cave chested, balanced a small torso on long, caliper legs, and possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting. His reflexes were uncommonly quick . . . .

[tpe]

You bet. As desribed in the SS in '63, he was given the tools and seemed he never changed much:
Ennis, high arched nose and narrow face, was scruffy and a little cave chested, balanced a small torso on long, caliper legs, and possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting. His reflexes were uncommonly quick . . . .

It's good that he was made this way, because Ennis was too volatile in his anger.  He certainly didn't think too much about odds.  Depending on the case, this could amount to bravery or foolishness.

[jackster]

It's good that he was made this way, because Ennis was too volatile in his anger.

It's interesting the way sometimes people develop and learn to use the god given "tools" they have been given. Some get good looks (no names here but I can think of two right away!), some get physical stamina, some language or artistic qualities, etc. etc. Some lucky folks get multiples, some unfortunates get little. Ennis learned early on he was good with his physical reactions and that this could be used to his advantage if he wanted. (the bit with his brother, etc) This was something no one could take from him and so he probably prized it greatly. Though we see him use his skill frequently I don't get the sense he abuses others with it, that is he's not a bully and doesn't get pleasure from bullying people - it comes out primarily when he feels directly threatened or sees no other solutions. It would be difficult to control this if you knew were good at it and you knew you could easily intimidate others with this advantage, and especially if you had little else in life - poor, orphaned, etc. This "ability" probably helped shape his personality - like Jack's imagination and "dreaming" helped shape his.

IMHO this is one of Annies greatest strengths in this story - her ability to create "real" multi-dimensional people out of whole cloth, these guys are so real sometimes it scares me.

[tpe]

It's interesting the way sometimes people develop and learn to use the god given "tools" they have been given. Some get good looks (no names here but I can think of two right away!), some get physical stamina, some language or artistic qualities, etc. etc. Some lucky folks get multiples, some unfortunates get little. Ennis learned early on he was good with his physical reactions and that this could be used to his advantage if he wanted. (the bit with his brother, etc) This was something no one could take from him and so he probably prized it greatly. Though we see him use his skill frequently I don't get the sense he abuses others with it, that is he's not a bully and doesn't get pleasure from bullying people - it comes out primarily when he feels directly threatened or sees no other solutions. It would be difficult to control this if you knew were good at it and you knew you could easily intimidate others with this advantage, and especially if you had little else in life - poor, orphaned, etc. This "ability" probably helped shape his personality - like Jack's imagination and "dreaming" helped shape his.

IMHO this is one of Annies greatest strengths in this story - her ability to create "real" multi-dimensional people out of whole cloth, these guys are so real sometimes it scares me.

Yes, I agree that Ennis did not bully people, nor did he derive pleasure from bullying people.  If threatened, he did react violently, but he was surprisingly restrained even in his reactions when Jack was concerned.

[manhattangirl]

Yes, I agree that Ennis did not bully people, nor did he derive pleasure from bullying people.  If threatened, he did react violently, but he was surprisingly restrained even in his reactions when Jack was concerned.

 

Yes I agree with you.  Ennis was restrained when it came Jack, totally loving towards him, like Ennis never had been with anyone else.   But I'm afraid that same restraint could  unleashed a fury with slightest fear, feeling, idea  Jack would leave him.   That is one thing I think could set Ennis off even with all troubles they had.  Letting Jack go was never, I believe,was an option for Ennis, bottomline I think it was out of the question.   

If Ennis ever thought Jack would leave him, and especially leave him for someone else, Ennis could easily lose any control of himself he had.   

[tpe]

 

Yes I agree with you.  Ennis was restrained when it came Jack, totally loving towards him, like Ennis never had been with anyone else.   But I'm afraid that same restraint could  unleashed a fury with slightest fear, feeling, idea  Jack would leave him.   That is one thing I think could set Ennis off even with all troubles they had.  Letting Jack go was never, I believe,was an option for Ennis, bottomline I think it was out of the question.   

If Ennis ever thought Jack would leave him, and especially leave him for someone else, Ennis could easily lose any control of himself he had.   

A great example is when Ennis got that bloodied nose from the scuffle with Jack.  His reaction was to hit Jack hard -- but only once!   If it were someone else, I would wager that he would have finished him off.  This is probably the one time he hurt jack physically, no?  But it was closer to a brutal "kiss", if you know what I mean...

[welshwitch]

Love can be so strong that it leads to physical violence, biting and  scratching and so on ( not as part of sexual acts). I can remember a friend with her kids saying, "I could eat you up" and actually nipping one kid's skin - I was afraid ashe was going to consume her. I suppose overflowing emotion finds itslef unable to pour out quickly enough and takes the easiert path - to Ennis that might have been to swing a fist. Though there's frustration and inability to comminicate in there too.

[jackster]

There are some very interesting comments and concepts being brought forth here. The whole physicality aspect of Ennis, his skill in this area and his use of it under certain circumstances could be a very interesting discussion, though I’m not sure this forum would find it appropriate. It would delve into an area of fantasy, pain, sexual gratification, etc. This is, as I’m sure most people here already know, a major element in the world of homosexual men. I can imagine some very interesting fan fiction evolving describing an elaborate fantasy life of Ennis and Jack based on the few personality traits we know and see.

This aspect really “hit” me (no pun intended) reading what tpe said about the “brutal kiss” delivered by Ennis when he punched Jack. Yes! What he really wanted to do was kiss him! But his inner conflicts and turmoil wouldn’t let him do it, (he was too pissed) so he did what he was good at; he punched him, quickly and out of nowhere. It could be argued that based on the reunion kiss, he was pretty damm good at kissing too! And maybe there’s another bookend – THE punch and THE kiss? The same “Ennis” emotional surge coming out of nowhere, reacting quickly, not thinking of the consequences. Both directed towards the same man, his love.

If Jack had been able to really coax Ennis out of his shell (and maybe he did, we saw just a little of it SNIT), there might have been some really interesting “encounters” ahead for both of them. I can see them getting into role-playing very easily. I’m not sure I feel comfortable going much farther than this here, but I wonder if anyone else sees this same potential in this relationship.

[tpe]

There are some very interesting comments and concepts being brought forth here. The whole physicality aspect of Ennis, his skill in this area and his use of it under certain circumstances could be a very interesting discussion, though I’m not sure this forum would find it appropriate. It would delve into an area of fantasy, pain, sexual gratification, etc. This is, as I’m sure most people here already know, a major element in the world of homosexual men. I can imagine some very interesting fan fiction evolving describing an elaborate fantasy life of Ennis and Jack based on the few personality traits we know and see.

This aspect really “hit” me (no pun intended) reading what tpe said about the “brutal kiss” delivered by Ennis when he punched Jack. Yes! What he really wanted to do was kiss him! But his inner conflicts and turmoil wouldn’t let him do it, (he was too pissed) so he did what he was good at; he punched him, quickly and out of nowhere. It could be argued that based on the reunion kiss, he was pretty damm good at kissing too! And maybe there’s another bookend – THE punch and THE kiss? The same “Ennis” emotional surge coming out of nowhere, reacting quickly, not thinking of the consequences. Both directed towards the same man, his love.

If Jack had been able to really coax Ennis out of his shell (and maybe he did, we saw just a little of it SNIT), there might have been some really interesting “encounters” ahead for both of them. I can see them getting into role-playing very easily. I’m not sure I feel comfortable going much farther than this here, but I wonder if anyone else sees this same potential in this relationship.

I felt that with Ennis, love and hate are expressed very strongly.  The boundary between the two becomes a bit more tenuous. 

The reunion kiss was also pretty "brutal".   It was very similar to the punch that he administered to Jack up in the Mountain.   It was as if love was something like a fight for Ennis.  In this sense, it is part of his potent physicality, in complement to Jack's sensual nature.

[CrimsonSky]

But, back to what you were saying, I don't about the meth lab, being out there, but I sure think they might run  in to a "hippie commune".  Wouldn't that be a hoot.  "All we are say is give peace a chance."

Hi manhattangirl  As a Beatles fan, this made me smile And of course, The Beatles gave us the ultimate hippy anthem, "All You Need Is Love", but it was nowhere near as simple as that for our boys, was it?

On the subjest of fighting, and particularly Ennis punching Jack on their last day on Brokeback, I think jackster is spot on here "It could be argued that based on the reunion kiss, he was pretty damm good at kissing too! And maybe there’s another bookend – THE punch and THE kiss? The same “Ennis” emotional surge coming out of nowhere, reacting quickly, not thinking of the consequences. Both directed towards the same man, his love."
I totally agree it was a bookend, Ennis waited four years to kiss that punch better, so to speak. It had been on his mind the whole time they were apart. In the motel he told Jack "I didn't think I'd hear from you again,I figured you were sore from that punch", which was both an admission of guilt and as close to an apology as Jack was ever likely to get. That fight scene took my breath away when I first saw the film, to me it is as much an expression of Ennis's love for Jack as the reunion kiss. The pain of losing Jack was too much for Ennis to take, and the only outlet he could find for that pain was to hurt the person he saw as the cause of it:Jack. I'm a Jack girl through and through, and I've been in the same place as Jack when he's lying flat out on the ground, but somehow it's Ennis I really feel for in that scene, maybe because deep down, emotionally, that punch, and what it symbolised, hurt Ennis even more than it hurt Jack

[manhattangirl]

Chrimsonsky,

Even at the farewell, standing by Jack's truck, Jack with the bruises on his face, still wanted Ennis, looking for a way of telling  "this is not over",  but Ennis seacrching for his shirt in that sack and telling Jack of his plans to marry Alma, what could Jack do?

Jack was not upset about the punch, but took it  probably knowing it wasn't directed at him, but understanding his lover's rage.   This is the first in many times, Jack would be the victim of Ennis's rage in one form or the other, this is one thing Jack learned,  to take whatever Ennis dished out at a given moment.   

Jackster, if this hasn't been done the bookend idea is great, wish you do it. 

[welshwitch]

And verging  but I don't think the sexual arousal, fantasy, pain syndrome is restricted to gay men.

It also occurs to me that after Ennis complains about losing money by being brought down a month early Jack offers him a loan and Ennis reacts very badly. Then Jack does the whole lassooing bit, which could be seen in several different ways, In the end I wonder if the punch doesn't also come out of Ennis's rage with Aguirre and his resentment at Jack, who hasn't only shown that he thinks he is better off than Ennis but also appears to be making a game out of their leaving. I don't think Ennis would get as far as seeing that Jack does that prescisely because he's so unhappy about ot - the whole "I laugh that I may not cry" thing probably would be too subtle for Enns.

[manhattangirl]

And verging  but I don't think the sexual arousal, fantasy, pain syndrome is restricted to gay men.

      Believe me, I know it's not.

Anyway,  Ennis sits alone pouting like a spoil brat who doesn't get their way, Jack knew exactly what was wrong, and went to him, "Its time to go cowboy".    Then the rage.   I don't think it was Aguirre, or resentment of Jack, who knew that  their time in the mountain was over, its time to move on.  And this is exact the reason Ennis could not handle it,  once he left Brokeback, he wouldn't see Jack again, he'll marry Alma, it's over.

 

[jackster]

And verging but I don't think the sexual arousal, fantasy, pain syndrome is restricted to gay men.

  You mean other folks do this too?
Just kidding. Didn't mean to imply it was only "us guys", but that that was what may be going on here with these two guys in particular. I didn't even make the connection with the lasso rope, very sharp thinking there WW!  I wonder if they'd played with that rope before  ? And Jack lassoin' Ennis, hmm. . . the mind reels at the various possibilities here . . . .

[welshwitch]

Yes, well,I don't know about sharp thinking. Reading too many of the wrong sort of books more likely. Originally i thought of the lassooing as more of a possessive gesture - "grapple him to thyself with hoops of steel" sort of idea.

Then later I got to thinking about other ways of looking at it - there has to be a sexual undercurrent.

[ksxks]

I felt that with Ennis, love and hate are expressed very strongly.  The boundary between the two becomes a bit more tenuous. 

The reunion kiss was also pretty "brutal".   It was very similar to the punch that he administered to Jack up in the Mountain.   It was as if love was something like a fight for Ennis.  In this sense, it is part of his potent physicality, in complement to Jack's sensual nature.

I love what you said here, Thomas.  What I bolded, and also Ennis's potent physicality and Jack's sensual nature.  Beautiful way to say it.

I didn't question why Ennis punched Jack, that outpouring of emotion that he didn't yet know what to do with.  Well, he did know what to do with certain of his emotions in camp with Jack; and maybe they even had some knock-down, drag-out arguments or even fights, and we don't know how they might have learned to handle their fights, if they had any up on Brokeback.  But this leaving early had Ennis all messed up.  They didn't even have time for one last time lovemaking, as they would have had if they'd had any advance notice that they had to leave.  So it was all the more devastating for Ennis because it was so sudden.  He sat up on that hill by himself -- oh my heart breaks.  And sweet darling Jack tries to cheer him up.  And it seems Jack didn't think this was goodbye forever, though Ennis had a sense that it was, going back to Alma and all, so the rug had just been pulled out from under him.

I like what Jackster said, too, about the punch/the kiss.  And it's conceivable that they could have gotten into so-called role-playing.  Not in the sense that has now became more common and (arguably) benign, because at the time they perhaps wouldn't have known it's "okay" to play this way.  But each of their natural inclinations might certainly have played naturally out in their love play.

kathy

[ksxks]

Hi manhattangirl  As a Beatles fan, this made me smile And of course, The Beatles gave us the ultimate hippy anthem, "All You Need Is Love", but it was nowhere near as simple as that for our boys, was it?

On the subjest of fighting, and particularly Ennis punching Jack on their last day on Brokeback, I think jackster is spot on here "It could be argued that based on the reunion kiss, he was pretty damm good at kissing too! And maybe there’s another bookend – THE punch and THE kiss? The same “Ennis” emotional surge coming out of nowhere, reacting quickly, not thinking of the consequences. Both directed towards the same man, his love."
I totally agree it was a bookend, Ennis waited four years to kiss that punch better, so to speak. It had been on his mind the whole time they were apart. In the motel he told Jack "I didn't think I'd hear from you again,I figured you were sore from that punch", which was both an admission of guilt and as close to an apology as Jack was ever likely to get. That fight scene took my breath away when I first saw the film, to me it is as much an expression of Ennis's love for Jack as the reunion kiss. The pain of losing Jack was too much for Ennis to take, and the only outlet he could find for that pain was to hurt the person he saw as the cause of it:Jack. I'm a Jack girl through and through, and I've been in the same place as Jack when he's lying flat out on the ground, but somehow it's Ennis I really feel for in that scene, maybe because deep down, emotionally, that punch, and what it symbolised, hurt Ennis even more than it hurt Jack

Me, too, CS.  I never felt Jack was this poor victim of a horrible violent man.  (And that's another reason some of us love men-together...because if Jack had been a woman, we would have been all over Ennis giving him a taste of his own medicine hopefully.  But it wasn't a violence directed at a weaker opponent -- totally different between equals.  Rant over.)  So anyway, you're so right -- it did hurt Ennis more than it hurt Jack.  What a way to leave himself in his true love's memory...he was undoubtedly thinking all those four years.

kathy

[ksxks]

Chrimsonsky,

Even at the farewell, standing by Jack's truck, Jack with the bruises on his face, still wanted Ennis, looking for a way of telling  "this is not over",  but Ennis seacrching for his shirt in that sack and telling Jack of his plans to marry Alma, what could Jack do?

Jack was not upset about the punch, but took it  probably knowing it wasn't directed at him, but understanding his lover's rage.   This is the first in many times, Jack would be the victim of Ennis's rage in one form or the other, this is one thing Jack learned,  to take whatever Ennis dished out at a given moment.   

Jackster, if this hasn't been done the bookend idea is great, wish you do it. 

Right, M-girl, we see it here, too -- Jack wanting to let Ennis know he still wanted to be with him some way or another.  Jack understood Ennis entirely.

kathy

[ksxks]

And verging  but I don't think the sexual arousal, fantasy, pain syndrome is restricted to gay men.

It also occurs to me that after Ennis complains about losing money by being brought down a month early Jack offers him a loan and Ennis reacts very badly. Then Jack does the whole lassooing bit, which could be seen in several different ways, In the end I wonder if the punch doesn't also come out of Ennis's rage with Aguirre and his resentment at Jack, who hasn't only shown that he thinks he is better off than Ennis but also appears to be making a game out of their leaving. I don't think Ennis would get as far as seeing that Jack does that prescisely because he's so unhappy about ot - the whole "I laugh that I may not cry" thing probably would be too subtle for Enns.

Hmmm, there's that, too, which I didn't really consider:  Ennis would maybe have resentment because it doesn't seem to be as devastating to Jack -- neither the loss of income nor leaving each other.  You're right that he's the type to laugh-instead-of-cry.  But also, as I said just a bit ago, Jack had those dreams, that at the least, they would get together the following summer.

kathy

[ksxks]

Yes, yum -- the lasso is fun.  This topic could keep veering off to that OT subject, so I'll say no more.

kathy

[aintfoolin]

  Say more Kathy if you please. To me this ties into who Ennis was as a whole person. I don't know about handcuffs , ropes, and whips  and such, but the possibility of *angry sex* has crossed my mind more than once. Ennis just seems to me to be a very physical person all around. He is consisently *rough* barring SNIT but who knows  what happened there either cos we were not privy to the whole thing but I did'nt hear Jack complaining,  (his reciprocal kiss on Ennis during the reunion scene was no joke either! talk about taking smash mouth to a new level! ) even during FNIT so maybe it's something they both enjoyed during sex.

 No one couple goes practically 20 years without some fights  and arguments. Jack showed that he could handle Ennis physically as well as mentally. He knew him well , knew when to push and when to back off and give Ennis his essential *space*.  I too beleive that Ennis was feeling shutdown from his ideal circumstances with Jack when Aguirre said to bring the sheep back down. He, imo immediatly began *preparing * himself for the inevitable loss of having Jack to himself. Perhaps it almost sub-concious on his part, taking it out on Jack first when Jack offered the loan, then up the ante when Jack tried to play with him about it. This was a serious blow to Ennis's well-being and was not in the mood to make light of it as Jack found out. If Aguirre had been available at that time, the punch would have gone to it's rightful target. Ennis's  anxiety over leaving and what awaited him in the future (marriage to Alma)  combined with Jack's seemingly non-concern drove Ennis over edge. But Jack cared more than Ennis knew. The anger was directed at Aguirre's  ( that sumbitch... as Ennis put it) untimely instuctions and not Jack. He was'nt ready to leave.My HO.

[manhattangirl]

These were men, a rodeo rider, and a ranch hand, roughnecks by nature,  with a high level of sexual need for each other.  And couple that with long periods of not being together, I don't think things would exactly be gentle between them. 

[aintfoolin]

Gentle? I would liken it to a pre- dormant volcanic explosion , red hot, explosive , uncontrollable and everything below gets covered!  ;)Please don't get me started. Oops my imagination just ran off.    And let's not limit this to men although these two would fit together...Like puzzlepeices.

[tpe]

I love what you said here, Thomas.  What I bolded, and also Ennis's potent physicality and Jack's sensual nature.  Beautiful way to say it.

I didn't question why Ennis punched Jack, that outpouring of emotion that he didn't yet know what to do with.  Well, he did know what to do with certain of his emotions in camp with Jack; and maybe they even had some knock-down, drag-out arguments or even fights, and we don't know how they might have learned to handle their fights, if they had any up on Brokeback.  But this leaving early had Ennis all messed up.  They didn't even have time for one last time lovemaking, as they would have had if they'd had any advance notice that they had to leave.  So it was all the more devastating for Ennis because it was so sudden.  He sat up on that hill by himself -- oh my heart breaks.  And sweet darling Jack tries to cheer him up.  And it seems Jack didn't think this was goodbye forever, though Ennis had a sense that it was, going back to Alma and all, so the rug had just been pulled out from under him.

I like what Jackster said, too, about the punch/the kiss.  And it's conceivable that they could have gotten into so-called role-playing.  Not in the sense that has now became more common and (arguably) benign, because at the time they perhaps wouldn't have known it's "okay" to play this way.  But each of their natural inclinations might certainly have played naturally out in their love play.

kathy

Thanks kathy.  Ennis was certainly messed up when he found out about having to come down early from the mountain.   I have tried to watch the fight scene very carefully to see the actual moment when play becomes anger, and it is really hard to tell.  It sometimes seems to me that from the very start, Ennis took things very seriously, and it was Jack who gradually realized that Ennis was not joking around.   

I also don't discount the possibility that this was part role-playing.   For one, it reminded me of the earlier scene when they were fooling around, not realizing that Aguirre was watching.  Could it have been part of a game?  Jack must have thought so at the beginning of the fight with Ennis.  He probably thought it was akin to that earlier scene. 

[manhattangirl]

tpe,

If you watch that scene again, listen to the middle of it when Jack calls out Ennis's name, it was at that point when Ennis too got instense in the play,  that's when things got serious.  Jack then was reduce to trying to defend himself.   

[tpe]

tpe,

If you watch that scene again, listen to the middle of it when Jack calls out Ennis's name, it was at that point when Ennis too got instense in the play,  that's when things got serious.  Jack then was reduce to trying to defend himself.   

I should perhaps listen as carefully as I watch.  Thanks MG.  I shall take your hint and watch this scene once again.

[welshwitch]

What a hardship, tpe!

It seems to me that there's a possibl;e parallel between the two of them rolling round in the open air which ends in a kiss and the last scne before they leave the moutain, which doesn't. I've always seen the lops of the rope as Jack's way of trying to tie Ennis to him - Ennis has already brushed him off over the offered loan, now he brushes his rope off too, or tries to, by the truck later he brushes off Jack's half-offer of another period on the mountain the next year. Ennis starts a pattern of rejection which continues to the end - maybe it's all there in that scene with the lassoo.

[tpe]

What a hardship, tpe!

It seems to me that there's a possibl;e parallel between the two of them rolling round in the open air which ends in a kiss and the last scne before they leave the moutain, which doesn't. I've always seen the lops of the rope as Jack's way of trying to tie Ennis to him - Ennis has already brushed him off over the offered loan, now he brushes his rope off too, or tries to, by the truck later he brushes off Jack's half-offer of another period on the mountain the next year. Ennis starts a pattern of rejection which continues to the end - maybe it's all there in that scene with the lassoo.

A wonderful correspondence here, WW.   Jack forever trying to pin down Ennis, and Ennis always fighting back.  Wther it ends with a kiss, a fist, or in tears, Ennis fought off his own happiness because of his own fears.  For Jack, Ennis fighting with himself was something that he was unable to subjugate.