Topic: How did Ennis and Jack Really see each other?

[lancecowboy]

Ennis was a realist, Jack a dreamer,  it was pointed out when they were together and Jack angry told Ennis he wanted to live his miserable life.  I don't think it escape them at all at what kind of life they both were living. 

Ennis love for Jack goes so deeply, he felt he was committed to him, and living his solitary life, but he knew it was impossible for them to have a life.  Jack love him the same way, his commitment was his heart,  his soul, but not necessarily his body, "I'm not you" he told Ennis.   in spite of his wife, his comfortable life, even Randall in the background.  He would have gladly gave all of it up for Ennis without hesitation.

They knew how they felt about each other, but knew how far one would go for the other, and that's the heartbreaking thing about it.  How far would one go for the other do you think?

You always go right to the heart of it, manhattengirl!  Ennis the practical dependable guy and Jack the dreamer - together they made dreams come true, and Jack would gladly leave everything to be with Ennis. Ennis only found real joy when he was with Jack.

The other elements in the story only illustrated this love, in the extent of their sacrifices. Brilliant!

[lancecowboy]

I've always thought that it was mostly lonliness that brought these two guys together ( along with circumstance).  Neither had a strong tie to a family, nor lots of friends and associates.  The jobs they went after were lonely, as was the job on BBM.  Although Ennis had Alma waiting at home, he was willing to leave her to look for work which kept him away from her.  And, although Jack had a mom and dad, they lived such a bleak, isolated life, he was willing to go on the rodeo circuit and take odd jobs to pay his entrance fees.  So, I think both men were used to being solitary, making decisions for themselves about their own lives, and not asking help from anyone.
      Keeping that in mind, then, this togetherness into which they were thrust in the BBM job was something they were not necessarily used to, but something they grew to like. I think they first came to be friends -- they teased each other, drank together, laughed and talked.  They became very much at ease with one another.  This, of course, paved the way for Jack to make his overture.
      As the years passed, I think their friendship deepened, as did their passion for one another, even after the newness wore off.  It was always good for them (SS).  They became each other's habit -- comfortable, but contained within the various mountain ranges they explored. Jack loved Ennis and would have traveled around the world to get to him.  Ennis, in my opinion, needed Jack's affection and love enough that he sometimes reciprocated.  Deep down, Ennis was the needy one, and Jack met his needs.  Jack made Ennis's life worth living, which is something Alma couldn't do. But, did Ennis love as much as Jack??? IMO, it wasn't untiil Ennis found the shirts that he really understood what love was and how much Jack loved him.  Then, Ennis acccepted the fact that he did, indeed, LOVE Jack.

I am totally onboard with you lamusica, except for Ennis love for Jack.

I think Ennis did not and could not be as expressive of his love as Jack. Jack the salesman was better at it. Ennis showed his love in the little daily things, as someone else pointed out. I think it was a reciprocal relationship equal in magnitude. Only thing was, Jack knew it was love; Ennis didn't understand it, until Cassie, and then the shirts. :\'(

[lancecowboy]

I'm only talking from Ennis's  view point.  Could it be that it wasn't only what happened to Earl and Rich, that stayed with Ennis, but the fact that he equated Earl and Rich, to him and Jack.  Remember how Ennis remembered them, "They were the joke of the town, but they were tough old birds",  He remembered them, he remembered what was said of them.  In other words, "I am them, they are me".   Does this make sense?  It goes to the fact of how Ennis identified himself.  Why didn't Jack remember this, and tried to reach Ennis "we are not them, they are not us".   

You are so right, manhattangirl! I think both Ennis and Jack identified with those guys in Ennis' memories. I will always have the image of Jack reaching out to caress Ennis' ear, as after he asked, "And you saw this!" Then Ennis replied, "My old man...Heck, as far as I know, he could've done the job himself." Jack's own issues with his old man must have made him identified with these Earl and Rich, dealing with his own fears probably made it hard for him to tell Ennis "We are not them."
I bet their lovemaking that night was unbelievable.

[lancecowboy]

The shirts themselves were a key to Jack.  He stole Ennis's shirt after the fight the last day on Brokeback.  He kept them during the four years they weren't together.  He had them when he went searching for Ennis, and kept them all the years after the reunion.  He bonded himself to Ennis all his life.   When it wasn't physical it was spiritual.  I believe he had no intentions of Ennis ever seeing them, nor do I think Jack believe Ennis would ever understand the meaning of it. 

Ennis's "one shot thing" mentality, forced Jack in many ways to go underground with what he wanted to tell Ennis, until the final confrontation, and even then he only told so much.

Ennis was a walking contradiction.  He never reconciled himself to idea of Jack, being a man, him loving him, his raw sexual need for him, and above all his inability to let him go, but keeping him at a distance he could handle.  How in the heck did they keep from killing each other?   

I am so glad to find this thread after having gone through all the ones where I learned more about the movie, Jack and Ennis. What you just wrote here wraps up the key part of the movie for me.

Jack may seem so carefree and happy go luck, but deep down he was as human as the rest of us, with the same doubts and fear. After the "one shot thing" comment from Ennis, Jack was indeed fearful of showing too much commitment. After his "like this, always" proposal to Ennis by the river, and, although Ennis moved closer to try to convey closeness and desire, he rejected that proposal. I agree with you that Jack probably was afraid of Ennis finding the shirts and interpret his love as overwhelming and end their relationship. He was always careful about expressing his love in ways that are not too intimidating.

They didn't kill each other because they always managed to wrestle and play-fight to let out their aggression, then make passionate love afterwards. They couldn't communicate in words, but they communicated in other ways. Not very effective mind you, but a lot of fun.

[aintfoolin]

 I agree, Jack definitly had his fears. Fears of loosing Ennis if he came on too strong, but I have to disagree on the statement above that Jack never intended Ennis to find the or ever know he had taken the shirt and kept it all through the years.

If by some miracle, Jack lived and managed to convice Ennis to join him in LF, I feel Jack would have eventually shown Ennis the shirts or Ennis would have discovered after a period of time.

The manner in which he had them displayed, his over top Ennis's would have the same affect on Ennis , even more so if Jack had lived. Mrs. Twist knew about them, I think Jack had shown them to her and discussed the implication of them and how they related to him and Ennis. Why they were there, why they were hidden away in this manner. Why Mrs. Twist did not dispose of them after her son's death. No, she knew what they meant, and why they were there hanging in Jack's closet since "63".

 Ennis never made it to LF hile Jack was still alive, but when he did arrive , it was she who came outside to greet him. It was Ennis who came, not Lareen or Randall. She finally gets to meet Ennis Del Mar, The love of her son's life, welcomed him into her home, PROMPTED Ennis to Jack's room with a clue to Ennis that "everything remains as Jack desired them to be" "Jack would have liked it that way". The relationship between she and Ennis has been widely discussed on the forum, but it is my belief that this was engineered by the two people who knew why Ennis would travel there now, when he never did before. My humble opinion.

[lancecowboy]

I agree, Jack definitly had his fears. Fears of loosing Ennis if he came on too strong, but I have to disagree on the statement above that Jack never intended Ennis to find the or ever know he had taken the shirt and kept it all through the years.

If by some miracle, Jack lived and managed to convice Ennis to join him in LF, I feel Jack would have eventually shown Ennis the shirts or Ennis would have discovered after a period of time.

The manner in which he had them displayed, his over top Ennis's would have the same affect on Ennis , even more so if Jack had lived. Mrs. Twist knew about them, I think Jack had shown them to her and discussed the implication of them and how they related to him and Ennis. Why they were there, why they were hidden away in this manner. Why Mrs. Twist did not dispose of them after her son's death. No, she knew what they meant, and why they were there hanging in Jack's closet since "63".

 Ennis never made it to LF hile Jack was still alive, but when he did arrive , it was she who came outside to greet him. It was Ennis who came, not Lareen or Randall. She finally gets to meet Ennis Del Mar, The love of her son's life, welcomed him into her home, PROMPTED Ennis to Jack's room with a clue to Ennis that "everything remains as Jack desired them to be" "Jack would have liked it that way". The relationship between she and Ennis has been widely discussed on the forum, but it is my belief that this was engineered by the two people who knew why Ennis would travel there now, when he never did before. My humble opinion.

Thanks, aintfooling, for pointing out Jack's fear. I think you are right that Jack is afraid of losing Ennis if he were to come on too strong. That's why he always prefaced his confession of "can hardly stand it" or "I redlined all the the way here" with some joking remark. He wanted Ennis to feel at ease, as two best buddies, and not two queers.

However, I guess only Annie would know if Jack ever intended to tell Ennis about the shirts, or if he talked to Mrs. Twist about them. I think Jack did intend to tell Ennis eventually, but I am not sure if he had thought about dying before Ennis. I am fairly certain, at this point of my humble understanding of the movie, that Jack probably did NOT talk with Mrs. Twist about the shirts and Ennis as the love of his life. He probably did tell Mrs. Twist about Brokeback Mountain as the best time and place in his life, that Ennis was his best buddy. However, I don't think the word love was used. Nevertheless, Mrs. Twist, being the wise and compassionate woman, most likely figured it out, if not from the beginning, then certainly by the time Ennis sat at the kitchen table. That's why she told him to go upstairs. If it were Randall or Laureen visiting (highly unlikely), she won't likely send them upstairs.

I wondered about her coming outside to greet Ennis. Without telephones, they probably didn't talk about the visit. However, Ennis probably sent a postcard, as Jack did, to mention a visit and receiving a reply before making the trip. So she was expecting him, and was anxious to meet him. The cherry cake comment is another reason to believe she expected his visit.

Thanks, aintfooling. I love discovering each new thread in this forum, just like peeling back another layer in the movie.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks for your post, L. Cowboy , you always enlighten me to new ways of looking at these events . I've not looked at it this way, that Mrs. Twist just put 2and2 together concerning Jack's relationship with Ennis. In fact it's more probable in this way. I feel Jack felt very close to his moms, talking about her to Ennis in the *waterwalking scene" . Think he adored her. Mothers do have a unique * insight* into their children. No different in this case imo.

 Jack's parents knew of Ennis's existence so Jack had discussed him with them in some fashion, maybe just as a friend who was coming to help out on the ranch, according to OMT, but Mrs. Twist figured there was more to this over the years.

 It was Lureen who told Ennis where half the ashes were, and he came specifically to ask for them and carry out Jack's wishes. My personal feeling is that she did'nt know Ennis would come up , maybe secretly hoped he would having an intuitive suspicion that this is Jack's *friend*. In any case she treated him with dignity and respect.
 He  did'nt get the ashes , but left with a new understanding of Jack's love for him, and a very precious gift in the form of the shirts,  and  last, but not least, an invitation to come back and see her again. Having lost his own mother at a young age , Ennis had to feel  he had gained through this visit ,a special connection to Jack in her, a confidant as well as something  that he so badly needed and missed...A surrogate mom, and who better than Jack's mom. She understood without judgement.

[lancecowboy]

Thanks for your post, L. Cowboy , you always enlighten me to new ways of looking at these events . I've not looked at it this way, that Mrs. Twist just put 2and2 together concerning Jack's relationship with Ennis. In fact it's more probable in this way. I feel Jack felt very close to his moms, talking about her to Ennis in the *waterwalking scene" . Think he adored her. Mothers do have a unique * insight* into their children. No different in this case imo.

 Jack's parents knew of Ennis's existence so Jack had discussed him with them in some fashion, maybe just as a friend who was coming to help out on the ranch, according to OMT, but Mrs. Twist figured there was more to this over the years.

 It was Lureen who told Ennis where half the ashes were, and he came specifically to ask for them and carry out Jack's wishes. My personal feeling is that she did'nt know Ennis would come up , maybe secretly hoped he would having an intuitive suspicion that this is Jack's *friend*. In any case she treated him with dignity and respect.
 He  did'nt get the ashes , but left with a new understanding of Jack's love for him, and a very precious gift in the form of the shirts,  and  last, but not least, an invitation to come back and see her again. Having lost his own mother at a young age , Ennis had to feel  he had gained through this visit ,a special connection to Jack in her, a confidant as well as something  that he so badly needed and missed...A surrogate mom, and who better than Jack's mom. She understood without judgement.

Thanks, aintfooling, we enlighten each other, isn't that what love suppose to do?
I love what you wrote. And Mr. Twist, I just know in my heart, will be transformed by Ennis over time, because Ennis had such a close relationship with his dad, idolizing him, learning all the cowboy ways from him. It's why the Earl scene had such an impact on young Ennis. I also think Mr. Twist because disappointed at Jack, because he also had a suspicion about his son's sexuality, and never bonded with him. He never took Jack to rodeos or taught him how to ride,etc. He got angry that his son wasn't all man, according to his standard. Ennis would become the cowboy son that he wished he had in Jack. I just know that over time, the two will bond, and Mr.Twist will learn a new dimension of Jack that will put him in tears in his old age. Ennis being the new and improved, emotionally more available Ennis, will know how to comfort him, like Jack comforted Ennis all those years.
I am calling this extended ending "Return to Brokeback Mountain"...

[myprivatejack]

Yes,Lance,the ending of the tale you promised us to write some day,¿didn´t you? ^^)  Well,I haven´t read  this thread completely,but I found all the posts very interesting(thanks,aintfoolin).I only want to add that for me Ennis and Jack see each other like the affection and the help they didin´t have as it´d correspond in their childhood.They were and see each other like the ying and the yang,the opposite but at the same time complement of the other. Boyish as he was at 63,Jack found a relax in Ennis way of being and an occasion of learning what his own father had denied him-surely because,right,he knew about his homosexuality-.And Ennis found someone who allowed him to open himself,to be more talkative,to live life more and better...And,simply,and no matter how many problems and even,dissapointments they found in the other,they saw each other as THE REAL LOVE OF THEIR LIFE.

[lancecowboy]

Yes,Lance,the ending of the tale you promised us to write some day,ŋdidnīt you? ^^) Well,I havenīt read  this thread completely,but I found all the posts very interesting(thanks,aintfoolin).I only want to add that for me Ennis and Jack see each other like the affection and the help they didinīt have as itīd correspond in their childhood.They were and see each other like the ying and the yang,the opposite but at the same time complement of the other. Boyish as he was at 63,Jack found a relax in Ennis way of being and an occasion of learning what his own father had denied him-surely because,right,he knew about his homosexuality-.And Ennis found someone who allowed him to open himself,to be more talkative,to live life more and better...And,simply,and no matter how many problems and even,dissapointments they found in the other,they saw each other as THE REAL LOVE OF THEIR LIFE.

Maybe I can claim writer's block?!  Actually, once I got started thinking about it, the magnitude of the task overwhelmed me for a few days. I still got thinking about the different scenes to put together, but it is the putting together that is difficult.

I think what made it possible for me to simply respond in the forum is the feeling of home, of acceptance, so the "little stories" came out all by themselves, like retelling of family memories in the kitchen or around camp fire. Once I tried to write it, like a job, it was no fun at all.

[tpe]

Thanks lancecowboy2007, aintfoolin, and MPJ. 

Yes,Lance,the ending of the tale you promised us to write some day,ŋdidnīt you? ^^)  Well,I havenīt read  this thread completely,but I found all the posts very interesting(thanks,aintfoolin).I only want to add that for me Ennis and Jack see each other like the affection and the help they didinīt have as itīd correspond in their childhood.They were and see each other like the ying and the yang,the opposite but at the same time complement of the other. Boyish as he was at 63,Jack found a relax in Ennis way of being and an occasion of learning what his own father had denied him-surely because,right,he knew about his homosexuality-.And Ennis found someone who allowed him to open himself,to be more talkative,to live life more and better...And,simply,and no matter how many problems and even,dissapointments they found in the other,they saw each other as THE REAL LOVE OF THEIR LIFE.

However they saw each other, there is no question in my mind that they responded to genuine love.  It colored the way they looked at each other, and smoothed away all faults and disappointments.  It is not really an illusion, because I really think every person is different to each of his/her acquaintances, although the person is one and the same. 

[lancecowboy]

And,simply,and no matter how many problems and even,dissapointments they found in the other,they saw each other as THE REAL LOVE OF THEIR LIFE.

Thanks lancecowboy2007, aintfoolin, and MPJ. 

However they saw each other, there is no question in my mind that they responded to genuine love.  It colored the way they looked at each other, and smoothed away all faults and disappointments.  It is not really an illusion, because I really think every person is different to each of his/her acquaintances, although the person is one and the same. 

Love is kind and compassionate. Mrs. Twist saw in Ennis what Jack saw, a man filled with love for his son. With love in our eyes, we see the best in the ones we love, their potential, not their shortcomings. Our love for them fill in what needs filling in. They stand taller, walk straighter, and speak more openly, no matter what their reality really. Jack put up with Ennis for twenty years because he saw the potential that Ennis can be, one day. Ennis loved Jack on the mountain, even with all his screw ups, because he saw the man filled with strength, emotionally, and loyalty.

I think, in a way, this forum sees each person at the best the person can be, not where we stand this moment. It is the same love between Jack and Ennis that we share. Seeing the best in each other - what the future will bring, overlooking the faults in each other and in ourselves - letting the past slide, and be strong in the present. Even the faults that we have, are endearing in our own eccentric ways, like Jack's harmonica playing which Ennis makes fun of, but loves because it means Jack is there. Even the faults are delicious in love.

[tpe]

Love is kind and compassionate. Mrs. Twist saw in Ennis what Jack saw, a man filled with love for his son. With love in our eyes, we see the best in the ones we love, their potential, not their shortcomings. Our love for them fill in what needs filling in. They stand taller, walk straighter, and speak more openly, no matter what their reality really. Jack put up with Ennis for twenty years because he saw the potential that Ennis can be, one day. Ennis loved Jack on the mountain, even with all his screw ups, because he saw the man filled with strength, emotionally, and loyalty.

I think, in a way, this forum sees each person at the best the person can be, not where we stand this moment. It is the same love between Jack and Ennis that we share. Seeing the best in each other - what the future will bring, overlooking the faults in each other and in ourselves - letting the past slide, and be strong in the present. Even the faults that we have, are endearing in our own eccentric ways, like Jack's harmonica playing which Ennis makes fun of, but loves because it means Jack is there. Even the faults are delicious in love.

I think your last sentence pretty much encapsulates the core of how I feel about how Ennis and Jack see each other.  And yes, it is the same in theis forum. 

[lancecowboy]

I think your last sentence pretty much encapsulates the core of how I feel about how Ennis and Jack see each other.  And yes, it is the same in theis forum. 

I am pretty proud of that line. It just came out all by itself.
And I am hooked into this forum for the same reason. It brings out the best in me even with all my delicious faults, eccentricities, nonsensical rambling, overly emotional sentiments, over use of emoticons ... Thanks, tpe,

[FlwrChild]

I love the idea that this is how they saw each other. And maybe that's why I believe so strongly in their love - that's exactly what I think love is supposed to be. And I agree that we have that here. Very well put.

[myprivatejack]

Of course, when we love somebody we tend to lessen their defects,we see them as little faults or lacks that never affect our global qualification of them;we tend to smooth the problems these defects could create because it´s also a way to maintain them by our side.This is what Ennis and Jack did during their relationship;even if they saw the difficulties that didn´t allow them to be together,they put their best to see only the kind side of their situation to enjoy the little time they had for each other.Really,they didn´t see a man who always put a wall between them and their wishes or another man who looked in prostitutes for what couldn´t find as often as he wanted to;above all,they saw LOVE WHEN THEY SAW EACH OTHER.That´s all.

[welshwitch]

That's just another definition of loving someone, isn't it? You see flaws but they are unimportant compared with the fact that this is the person you need to be with, the person with whom you want to share a life. 

[aintfoolin]

Another important question is how did they see themselves and how that relates to what they needed from each other. If they completed each other. what was it that they got from each other that made them a complete person? I understand what Ennis needed from Jack as he was less complete as a person imo but what did Jack get from Ennis? He loved him. Clearly he was the one pushing the relationship forward.

 What would be the the result if Jack, due to his frustration just said " I aint meetin you no more"  "I aint puttin myself out there no longer because you hurt me" I imagine he had these thoughts in moments of frustration. He was wishing to find a way to quit Ennis toward the end, but in reality, was'nt he wishing to find an outcome to all this in the end? Could he really quit? Was his thoughts of the dozy embrace proof that he never could after all was said and done?

Personally, I feel Jack would have met Ennis at Pine Creek despite his fustration , Did he still have hope? After 20 years I think he  still had hope, but things could never be the status quo after the confrontation. So far Ennis had givin up a marriage, and dumped Cassie. Was this preparation on his part to finally commit to Jack. or at last compromise in some fashion? To do this Ennis would have to accept that he and Jack were of the same sexual orientation I still wonder if Ennis could go there..If only Jack had lived....

[lancecowboy]

That's just another definition of loving someone, isn't it? You see flaws but they are unimportant compared with the fact that this is the person you need to be with, the person with whom you want to share a life.

I think that's why the cynics say love is blind. But that's like saying Mt Fuji is a mountain. The statement may be true, and somewhat descriptive, but it lacks the poetry that convey the beauty, the soul of Mt Fuji.

Love is sweet and addictive precisely because it is forgiving and tolerant of our imperfections. We all know we are not perfect. We don't need someone constantly pointing it out ad nausea, just to prove, usually the point of their selfishness, that they are better than us. Love is gentle, love is kind, love is patiently waiting for us to change, with gentle prodding, not bullying. Jack waited twenty years. Ennis saw the magnitude of that love, when he found the shirts... :\'( The power of that love broke down the Wall, and freed the Child within the man. Ennis could never have fun without Jack in the past. After the wall came tumbling down, Ennis could never live another day, without enjoying the bittersweet certainty that the man he loved, loved him for twenty years. And he always had a twinkle, in my opinion, after his return from Lightning Flat. I would love to see his drive back to Riverton. He may not whistle to the tune of King of the Road like Jack. He'd probably cried his eyes out like the rest of us.

Another important question is how did they see themselves and how that relates to what they needed from each other. If they completed each other. what was it that they got from each other that made them a complete person? I understand what Ennis needed from Jack as he was less complete as a person imo but what did Jack get from Ennis? He loved him. Clearly he was the one pushing the relationship forward.

 What would be the the result if Jack, due to his frustration just said " I aint meetin you no more"  "I aint puttin myself out there no longer because you hurt me" I imagine he had these thoughts in moments of frustration. He was wishing to find a way to quit Ennis toward the end, but in reality, was'nt he wishing to find an outcome to all this in the end? Could he really quit? Was his thoughts of the dozy embrace proof that he never could after all was said and done?

Personally, I feel Jack would have met Ennis at Pine Creek despite his fustration , Did he still have hope? After 20 years I think he  still had hope, but things could never be the status quo after the confrontation. So far Ennis had givin up a marriage, and dumped Cassie. Was this preparation on his part to finally commit to Jack. or at last compromise in some fashion? To do this Ennis would have to accept that he and Jack were of the same sexual orientation I still wonder if Ennis could go there..If only Jack had lived....

Absolutely no doubt in my mind that if Jack lived, they would meet in Pine Creek, hunt elks, relive the magic of Brokeback Mountain, and perhaps, Ennis will propose to Jack this time.

Just my wishful thinking.

[tpe]

Of course, when we love somebody we tend to lessen their defects,we see them as little faults or lacks that never affect our global qualification of them;we tend to smooth the problems these defects could create because itīs also a way to maintain them by our side.This is what Ennis and Jack did during their relationship;even if they saw the difficulties that didnīt allow them to be together,they put their best to see only the kind side of their situation to enjoy the little time they had for each other.Really,they didnīt see a man who always put a wall between them and their wishes or another man who looked in prostitutes for what couldnīt find as often as he wanted to;above all,they saw LOVE WHEN THEY SAW EACH OTHER.Thatīs all.

This is just human nature, no?  It is amazing how far we can go outside of ourselves for the sake of the ones we love...

[tpe]

***
Personally, I feel Jack would have met Ennis at Pine Creek despite his fustration , Did he still have hope? After 20 years I think he  still had hope, but things could never be the status quo after the confrontation. So far Ennis had givin up a marriage, and dumped Cassie. Was this preparation on his part to finally commit to Jack. or at last compromise in some fashion? To do this Ennis would have to accept that he and Jack were of the same sexual orientation I still wonder if Ennis could go there..If only Jack had lived....

I have thought more often that he had indeed lost hope, although some residual portion may have clung to him -- enough to make him NOT shut Ennis out of his life.  Perhaps his thinking of moving with Randall was one last desperate attempt to bring matters to a head...

[lancecowboy]

I have thought more often that he had indeed lost hope, although some residual portion may have clung to him -- enough to make him NOT shut Ennis out of his life.  Perhaps his thinking of moving with Randall was one last desperate attempt to bring matters to a head...

I don't think Jack lost hope with Ennis, not after twenty years. He was frustrated, yes. He was desperate, yes. He was frightened that the years are slipping by, "never enough time", yes. But IMO, Jack was deeply in love with Ennis, and would go back to Ennis if he was ever asked. Pine Creek absolutely. Lightning Flat or any other little ranch you bet.

Problem was, Ennis told Jack in their last meeting that he couldn't stand it any more. Jack would NEVER do anything deliberately to hurt Ennis. That's true love. If Jack thought their meeting together was hurting Ennis, Jack would sacrifice it for Ennis' sake, just as Ennis' sacrificed his own happiness to be with Jack to avoid the fate he feared. When Jack proposed, like this always, to Ennis, IMO, there was a tremendous struggle in Ennis, that's why he moved closer to Jack, almost like jumping up and wanting to hug him, but his fears won out in the end, and sat, with back to Jack, facing the fire, reminiscing the traumatic memory.

What Jack and Ennis had was true love. No little things could change that. It took something big, like social injustice and hatred to end it.

Moving in with Randall was just Jack's way of dealing with his own loneliness, and I think the stoical Ennis learned to manage loneliness much better than the impulsive Jack. Just my opinion.

[tpe]

I don't think Jack lost hope with Ennis, not after twenty years. He was frustrated, yes. He was desperate, yes. He was frightened that the years are slipping by, "never enough time", yes. But IMO, Jack was deeply in love with Ennis, and would go back to Ennis if he was ever asked. Pine Creek absolutely. Lightning Flat or any other little ranch you bet.

Problem was, Ennis told Jack in their last meeting that he couldn't stand it any more. Jack would NEVER do anything deliberately to hurt Ennis. That's true love. If Jack thought their meeting together was hurting Ennis, Jack would sacrifice it for Ennis' sake, just as Ennis' sacrificed his own happiness to be with Jack to avoid the fate he feared. When Jack proposed, like this always, to Ennis, IMO, there was a tremendous struggle in Ennis, that's why he moved closer to Jack, almost like jumping up and wanting to hug him, but his fears won out in the end, and sat, with back to Jack, facing the fire, reminiscing the traumatic memory.

What Jack and Ennis had was true love. No little things could change that. It took something big, like social injustice and hatred to end it.

Moving in with Randall was just Jack's way of dealing with his own loneliness, and I think the stoical Ennis learned to manage loneliness much better than the impulsive Jack. Just my opinion.

Sorry lance, I should have specified what I meant by "losing hope."  I have been so used to saying it this way; what I meant was that Jack would have lost hope in sharing a sweet life with Ennis -- certainly not losing hope (i.e., love) with Ennis.  I do think that Jack never stopped loving Ennis, even though his hope of making his dream a reality may have faded.

[lancecowboy]

Sorry lance, I should have specified what I meant by "losing hope."  I have been so used to saying it this way; what I meant was that Jack would have lost hope in sharing a sweet life with Ennis -- certainly not losing hope (i.e., love) with Ennis.  I do think that Jack never stopped loving Ennis, even though his hope of making his dream a reality may have faded.

Thanks, tpe, appreciate your explaining it to a newbie. I think you are right. It hadn't occur to me until yesterday that as Jack grows evidently older, he must be feeling the pressure of the years slipping by, the sweat life in Lightning Flat must be such a burden weighing him down every time he visits. The mean old Mr Twist probably nail him with questions about how Ennis never got to visit once in twenty years, or when is he going to fix up the ranch.

It may be, and I am speculating, that Jack asked Randall to go to Lightning Flat, was bluntly refused and Randall may have simply refused to see Jack again. Desperate now for the sweet life, Jack might have (in his mid-life crisis) ventured to the rodeo circuit trying to find a young version of Ennis, to start the sweet life he dreamed of, and never got. Maybe that's how he got murdered. The young cowboy he tried to pick up got together with some friends and killed him, or beat him up, and left him for dead. When men are desperate for love and companions, they make fatal mistakes.

[tpe]

Thanks, tpe, appreciate your explaining it to a newbie. I think you are right. It hadn't occur to me until yesterday that as Jack grows evidently older, he must be feeling the pressure of the years slipping by, the sweat life in Lightning Flat must be such a burden weighing him down every time he visits. The mean old Mr Twist probably nail him with questions about how Ennis never got to visit once in twenty years, or when is he going to fix up the ranch.

It may be, and I am speculating, that Jack asked Randall to go to Lightning Flat, was bluntly refused and Randall may have simply refused to see Jack again. Desperate now for the sweet life, Jack might have (in his mid-life crisis) ventured to the rodeo circuit trying to find a young version of Ennis, to start the sweet life he dreamed of, and never got. Maybe that's how he got murdered. The young cowboy he tried to pick up got together with some friends and killed him, or beat him up, and left him for dead. When men are desperate for love and companions, they make fatal mistakes.

yes, we should not forget that Jack was always talking about bringing Ennis back to LF, presumably years before Randall entered the picture.  And we should note that it never happened.  So we cannot be sure whether this is the same with his desire to bring Randall back to LF.

For Jack, it was always the stuff of dreams that seemed to give him the impetus to live.  In a way, I think that is why I love him.

[lancecowboy]

yes, we should not forget that Jack was always talking about bringing Ennis back to LF, presumably years before Randall entered the picture.  And we should note that it never happened.  So we cannot be sure whether this is the same with his desire to bring Randall back to LF.

For Jack, it was always the stuff of dreams that seemed to give him the impetus to live.  In a way, I think that is why I love him.

I adore Jack as well, but it is Ennis that I truly identify with, and perhaps love. Almost everyone who knows Jack seem to think his dreams are exactly that, only dreams where blue birds sing next to a whiskey spring, and dreams that often don't come to reality. That's why he and Ennis are soul-mates, together the dreamer rely on the builder to make their common dreams come true. The problem comes when Ennis doesn't buy-in on Jack's schemes. I think Jack failed to sell the most important dream in his life to Ennis. That's the tragedy in Jack's life. Ennis' tragedy was his inability to communicate, to open to the life that he loves and yearns for, with Jack, until too late.

In a way, Ennis is the ground-pounder seeing only what's in front of him, content with his limited travel range, content with a life that's colorless, steady, changeless, monotonous. Routine is what drives Ennis. Jack is the only excitement that makes him truly happy.

On the other hand, Jack is the dreamer seeing all the potentialities, but never stick with anything long enough to make them real, fulfilling their potential. After all the years of failing, and his father-in-law needling him, Jack must feel insecure, which breeds more failure. I find it interesting that right after he met Laureen and she smiled at him appreciatively, he managed to win the bull-ride, after failing for a long time. He said he only made $2000 the year he met her. It says a lot about his state of mind. Ennis is the solid rock that gives him security, a strong foundation, a home, the confidence in himself and their future.

There is no question in my mind that the two are meant to be together. Yes, I know they are fictional characters, but they are also so real, to me...and all the people who in this forum.

[tpe]

I adore Jack as well, but it is Ennis that I truly identify with, and perhaps love. Almost everyone who knows Jack seem to think his dreams are exactly that, only dreams where blue birds sing next to a whiskey spring, and dreams that often don't come to reality. That's why he and Ennis are soul-mates, together the dreamer rely on the builder to make their common dreams come true. The problem comes when Ennis doesn't buy-in on Jack's schemes. I think Jack failed to sell the most important dream in his life to Ennis. That's the tragedy in Jack's life. Ennis' tragedy was his inability to communicate, to open to the life that he loves and yearns for, with Jack, until too late.

In a way, Ennis is the ground-pounder seeing only what's in front of him, content with his limited travel range, content with a life that's colorless, steady, changeless, monotonous. Routine is what drives Ennis. Jack is the only excitement that makes him truly happy.

On the other hand, Jack is the dreamer seeing all the potentialities, but never stick with anything long enough to make them real, fulfilling their potential. After all the years of failing, and his father-in-law needling him, Jack must feel insecure, which breeds more failure. I find it interesting that right after he met Laureen and she smiled at him appreciatively, he managed to win the bull-ride, after failing for a long time. He said he only made $2000 the year he met her. It says a lot about his state of mind. Ennis is the solid rock that gives him security, a strong foundation, a home, the confidence in himself and their future.

There is no question in my mind that the two are meant to be together. Yes, I know they are fictional characters, but they are also so real, to me...and all the people who in this forum.

Yes, I do think that in spite of their differences, they were well matched.  They certainly saw each other's failings, and weren't really interested in sugar-coating over any of it.  I think they loved each other more so because of them.

[welshwitch]

I suppose that if you have a sense of your own failings, you may perceive that the other person lacks them and that may be one of the things that pulls you together, much as the space in a receptor is the binding site for a protein molecule.

[lancecowboy]

I suppose that if you have a sense of your own failings, you may perceive that the other person lacks them and that may be one of the things that pulls you together, much as the space in a receptor is the binding site for a protein molecule.

Hi, welshwitch, I love this analogy/metaphor. When the other person does not have the failings we perceive in ourselves, we see them as perfect, in spite of all their faults. Our own failings are always magnified within our own mind, and are minute in the minds of our loved ones by comparison.

In fact, as your analogy/metaphor suggests, it is the failings that give our loved ones opportunities to show us their strengths, as Ennis filled the needs for Jack, so Jack also filled the needs for Ennis. A perfect match because of the imperfections.

I love this forum!

[tpe]

Hi, welshwitch, I love this analogy/metaphor. When the other person does not have the failings we perceive in ourselves, we see them as perfect, in spite of all their faults. Our own failings are always magnified within our own mind, and are minute in the minds of our loved ones by comparison.

In fact, as your analogy/metaphor suggests, it is the failings that give our loved ones opportunities to show us their strengths, as Ennis filled the needs for Jack, so Jack also filled the needs for Ennis. A perfect match because of the imperfections.

I love this forum!

You also have a beautiful way of saying it, lance.  Thank you.